The Leader's Edge | Gabe Lyons

What if the key to leading others well starts with healing your own heart?

In this powerful conversation, Gabe Lyons—author, speaker, and founder of THINQ Media—joins us to talk about leadership, marriage, emotional health, and why being grounded in your identity as a child of God is more important than your title or metrics. From cultivating honest spaces for leaders to wrestle with hard questions, to sharing the deeply personal story behind his new book The Fight For Us (co-written with his wife, Rebekah), Gabe offers wisdom and practical insight for leaders who want to stay healthy and last for the long haul.

Whether you’re navigating burnout, wondering how to measure success, or simply craving honest leadership conversations, this episode offers hope, clarity, and practical next steps.

Subscribe for more conversations on leadership, trust, and building healthy teams.

About Gabe Lyons: 

Gabe Lyons is a bestselling author, sought-after speaker, and the founder of THINQ, a groundbreaking media company dedicated to exploring the intersection of faith, culture, and the next generation. Through his work, Gabe equips thought leaders to create conversations that lead to greater wisdom and societal transformation.

 

He hosts the UnderCurrent podcast and co-hosts the Rhythms for Life podcast with his wife, Rebekah. Gabe has written several influential books, including Good Faith (2016), The Next Christians (2010), and unChristian (2007). He is also the creator of the global Q Commons event series, a platform that fosters meaningful dialogue on faith and cultural issues, impacting millions. 

 

Gabe and Rebekah, a bestselling author and national speaker, released their first book together The Fight For Us: Overcoming What Divides to Build a Marriage that Thrives. Together, they have four children and live in Franklin, Tennessee.

 

Additional Resources:

 

ECFA.org/LeaderCare

gabelyons.com

THINQ Media

The Fight for Us

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Creators and Guests

Host

Michael Martin

President & CEO of ECFA

Guest

Gabe Lyons

Gabe Lyons is a bestselling author, sought-after speaker, and the founder of THINQ, a groundbreaking media company dedicated to exploring the intersection of faith, culture, and the next generation.

What is Behind the Seal?

ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?

Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.

[00:00:00] Gabe Lyons: It's a beautiful way that God's designed this whole thing to work, that healed people, heal people. And I think that happens in the workplace as a leader. The more emotionally healthy and present a leader can be, it impacts the entire staff. It impacts the culture. I just think this is the mission of God in each of our lives, right? He restores us, he redeems us, and then he puts us on a mission to help anyone else with what we've been able to recover, and we're so excited about.

[00:00:26] Ryan Gordon: You know those leaders who just make the room feel safe? Like you can breathe a little easier around them? That kind of presence doesn't happen by accident. In today's episode, Michael Martin converses with Gabe Lyons, author, thought leader and founder of Thinq Media, about what it really takes to lead from a place of emotional and relational health.

What struck me most. Was Gabe's reminder that God heals us so we can offer healing to others. When leaders show up emotionally healthy and vulnerable, even in their brokenness, they create safe redemptive spaces for others to thrive.

Whether you're leading in a boardroom, a church, or a family, this episode offers both practical wisdom and deep encouragement. So let's dive in.

[00:01:18] Michael Martin: Gabe, it's good to see you, my friend. Welcome to the ECFA podcast.

[00:01:21] Gabe Lyons: Yeah, you bet. It's so good to be with you guys today. Excited to talk.

[00:01:25] Michael Martin: Well, thank you. Yeah. So we have had the privilege at ECFA of participating the last couple years in the THINQ conference and all the great things that you're doing through THINQ and, uh, influencing leaders playing such a, a critical role.

So grateful to have, uh, you on for this conversation today about leadership and maybe just start us with that. Tell us, for those who may not be familiar, a little bit about THINQ and the mission and some of the different events that you guys do throughout the year.

[00:01:51] Gabe Lyons: Yeah. Well thank you Michael, and thanks for what you do. Uh, it's so important the work, uh, that ECFA is doing to help leaders and organizations, I think lead with integrity and continue to have the highest bar, um, in how they're operating. I. And, and how they do what they do. So that excellence really pervades and gives witness to a better way, um, as it relates to business and leadership and organization. So thank you for that.

And yeah, our work for now over 20 years has been to gather and equip leaders, uh, in areas of discussion and learning that oftentimes in the Christian space has been an area that, uh, we have found to be somewhat weak and missing. And that's really in how do we. Very specifically engage our cultural moment and the current issues and the questions that each generation is faced with in this moment, and that's ever changing.

So every year it looks a little bit different, requires the ability to have some dynamic responses to that. And we primarily do that through two vehicles. One is through events. Some of those are private retreats for leaders that we're pouring into off the record, helping them really think through the year ahead, how to navigate the conversations happening in our culture, how to do that faithfully and biblically, uh, while also bringing, uh, great persuasive, uh, arguments and discussions to the table for a world that's asking big questions.

And so that's, that's part of the work. And then some of it's public, which our culture summit now called THINQ Summit, that we do every year. The next one's in October, second through fourth. In Nashville, that guy, there's thousands of leaders who come in and they, they come from literally every industry.

This isn't just like a church event. This is an event that pulls leaders that are leading in media and entertainment to business and entrepreneurs, to politics, to science and technology to leaders of institutions that are nonprofits or foundations, parents who are really interested in their children growing up in a way that that's understanding the times and knowing what to do.

And, and so that event, it's a three day event that hosts over 35 different. Talks that are short, nine minute typical talks or panel interviews along with a lot of workshops, interactions with speakers and presenters, and the chance for leaders to get to know one another and collaborate on projects that they're working on to advance good in culture.

Whether that's building businesses together, writing books, music documentaries, you know, there's such a creative air to the space that, uh, takes place here because the people that come. Our Christians who are very committed to excellence in the calling that they have, but they don't wanna do it alone and they wanna do it with a deep purpose behind it.

And so for 20 years we've been able to convene that type of a network. Uh, and then I'll say finally, the last place that all of these ideas show up is thinqmedia.com. And that's available to everybody. If you can't attend an event, you can today go get access to hundreds of talks, literally on every topic you could imagine from artificial intelligence to discussions like we've had about integrity and about leadership and about health of leaders.

And anything in between, uh, to try to help equip Christians to know how to navigate the times. And there's not, um, there's not a lot of places to go for that. And we have just found, uh, in partnering with a lot of other organizations and providing our talks into the life of their work, that it's become quite a way to, to equip and disciple Christians around how to think well about our cultural moment.

[00:05:03] Michael Martin: Yeah, no, I, I echo that Gabe, I've just been so blessed, uh, personally in my leadership of being able to attend THINQ so. Uh, like Gabe said, if you've not had the chance to be there in person, uh, do it. And if you can't be there in person, there are, like you said, a lot of great resources there, even on the website as well.

Just helping us think, well, I think, um, stretching our thinking. And then the other piece that I'll. I'll add to, or I, I think you've sort of touched on this, but the importance of thinking well, engaging culture in a Christ-like, uh, in a Christ-like manner, uh, which is just such a, a good part of like the ethos of what you guys are doing at THINQ.

So hats off to you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Well, and you mentioned Gabe, the conversation that we were able to have even recently just around the integrity, the health of leaders. So appreciate how, uh, in a lot of ways you're such a kindred spirit along with, with ECFA, kind of in all that we're doing to help encourage healthy leadership in these times.

Um, what is it for you as you see the importance of, uh, the wellbeing of leaders and the connection to. Thinking and engaging well with culture, like where do you see those connections? How is that a passion point for you?

[00:06:16] Gabe Lyons: Well, you know, for 20 years, Rebecca and I have been hosting retreats for leaders a, a lot of the retreats I described earlier, a lot of private spaces where we get couples together if they're married.

If they're not, they come alone, but. The idea is to create these environments where leaders feel the safety of vulnerability and the ability to ask difficult questions. That sometimes as a leader inside their organization, institution, maybe as a public figure, they don't always feel comfortable being vulnerable or asking questions.

'cause they're, they feel like whether the people, they lead an audience that's listening to them, uh, just expects them to have all the information, all the knowledge, all the wisdom. Uh, for many times a lot of questions that they've never been equipped or prepared to think about. And so they're oftentimes thrust into the spotlight of leadership or the public eye.

And if we create these spaces as we've done for 20 years, we find that we can create moments where they're able to ask those questions and get answers from experts, from leaders who've maybe walked a little further than them who've, who've put emphasis on areas of life that maybe. You know, in leadership today are not emphasized as much areas like integrity and wisdom and discernment and patience and abiding with God as they try to lead the thing that they're doing.

Um, we're, we're finding that some of those, you know, I, I wouldn't call 'em soft skills. You know, if you're reading Harvard Business Review, they might call some of these things soft skills, I think for, for kingdom people. Like these are spiritual disciplines and skills that you learn to integrate into the life of your leadership and work.

And when you don't have the time to do that and you're just operating off of, of, of what I would call Babylon system, right? That the system that's been set up. By the world that says, this is how you're a great leader, this is how you're effective. Um, there, there can be a lot of gaps and a lot of vacuums that don't get filled with the right things and therefore leave you susceptible as a leader, uh, to any number of temptations, any number of just unwise poor decisions that ultimately can impact your team, your people, your family.

Uh, and so when Rebecca and I have had that chance to lead leaders and have those conversations and really get, get into these areas that are. Difficult to talk about, whether it's, uh, their marriages, their families, um, their leadership styles and how that's impacting the people around them. Um, we find that they start to find, uh, a bit more confidence when they realize it's okay to ask those questions.

It's important to ask those questions, and it's also important to expose those areas. That are your weaknesses. Um, you know, there's a principle I know I live by expose. Expose your weaknesses. Expose your sins before they expose you, um, because those weaknesses will expose you at at some point. And so if we can create space where it's normalized to talk about weaknesses as a leader, not just focus on the strengths and what everybody else sees, but let's talk about the areas where you're struggling.

Uh, we give leaders a chance to to heal. To get help to, to persevere even as they're leading so that they can stay in leadership. If they're called to be leaders, they can stay in that leadership for the long haul and not, and not. In a, in a lot of ways, a sacrifice or have to abandon what they've been called to do because they didn't have a space to try to properly process some of those questions that they have.

[00:09:29] Michael Martin: Yeah. And what have you found to be the key or some keys to creating the safe space for leaders to come to?

[00:09:38] Gabe Lyons: Well, I think it starts with, uh, invitation from the leader and whoever's hosting that space. And, and this can be as simple as another couple in their home. Uh, it could be in an environment with a few people.

It could be an environment with a hundred people or 200. Sometimes our retreats are 200. I think it, it's, it's really setting the stage early for leaders and saying to them like, no topics, off limits here. Um, we're gonna kind of put down our egos. We're gonna leave those at the door because. Your value is not in what you lead.

Your value is not in what you've accomplished or s succeeded at at this point. Like your values that God calls you, a son or daughter of, of him, and he has amazing plans for your life. And we can like process through some of that only if we're coming at this from a humble perspective, that we're just vehicles for God to use.

And I think that comes from the leader, it comes from the host, it comes from the person creating that space to let that leader know it's okay to be vulnerable with me. Um. It's okay for you to open up. And some leaders have never had that experience. They perhaps have run away from those experiences and, and maybe that's been part of their success.

I know for me early on, like I had some emotional wounds from, from really my early years as a teenager, um, with trusting leaders. And because of that. It took me a while to, to begin to trust again and to learn that even with my board, like I can be honest about the things I'm feeling. Um, you know, we run a 5 0 1 C3 organization and so always having that accountability to a board, but, but a board that loves you, that, you know, sincerely cares about me and Rebecca cares about our health, cares about the ways in which we're going to make decisions and, and can bring wisdom into that.

Um, that has meant so much to Rebecca and I 'cause, 'cause then we not only. Feel uplifted and encouraged by wisdom. But we also feel a sense of that covering that, that there's a group of people that we can come underneath that we don't have to have all the answers. We don't have to make all the decisions that we can entrust to them as, as really the people that God's allowed us to have in place.

Good counsel, good decision making. And I think for leaders who have that, it, it becomes the safe place to feel the, the ability to be more vulnerable. Um. Without fear, you know, that, that you're gonna lose your job because you've had a tough week or you're feeling burned out or you're not sure what the next season of the vision ought to be.

And, and all your people are looking at you and you feel that pressure. And so you can, you can be tempted to just make some things up that, that aren't wise. Um, but when you have that trusted place, you can come and run that through a lens. And, and I have found with my, my board in particular that, um, they have brought such encouragement to me.

They fill me with courage. To go do the things I sense deep in my heart that I'm supposed to do, and they also give me space at those moments where they recognize like, it's not clear right now, so we're not gonna push this. We're not gonna force something. We're gonna, we're gonna give this the space and time it needs, even if it means our, you know, two to three year business plan's gonna look stalled here for a quarter.

That's okay because we, we wanna make sure we're aligning and we're doing exactly what we can do in this cultural moment to be most effective with what God's called us to do.

[00:12:44] Michael Martin: That is so good. Uh, I appreciate Gabe, all that you shared there and just the way that you've embraced that kind of relationship, uh, with your board.

Um, that's something we obviously are very passionate about. It's a big part of this new leader care standard, uh, that ECFA is, is helping to champion. How would you say that? That level of care and support that you receive from your board, how does that supplement or kind of strengthen some of the, even just the personal rhythms that maybe you have or, or you and Rebecca have in your marriage?

I.

[00:13:18] Gabe Lyons: Well, you know, I think when you're leading something, you, you constantly, I mean, you're, you're usually self-driven, you know, to lead something or create something or start something. So, so a lot of the leaders may be listening to this, um, they're motivated. Like that's not the problem. Uh, the, the problem is how do you pause from all that motivation, drive vision, clarity of direction you're trying to accomplish.

How do you create the space for rhythms? And, and I have found, um, by having a board that cares deeply about the emotional health for myself and for Rebecca, our mental health, uh, our leadership health, that because of their wisdom of, of having gone a little further than us and seen a, a few more leaders than we've maybe experienced, um, fail that they go, no, this is, this is of utmost priority that we.

We help you think through how to structure your time well. How to make sure you're giving time. I know, I know. In my work. So for example, with THINQ, you know, our work is designed to help give thought leadership to other Christians who are leading on a number of questions and areas. Well, what my board understands is if, if I'm burned out, because you know, my week is completely taken up with.

Every management decision you could imagine, or operationally being involved in every logistical decision that happens for our events or our retreats, because I don't have the proper staff around me and we don't have the, the right people in place. That would allow me to, to take a little bit of time every week to make sure my thought leadership's intact, you know, to make sure that I'm growing, to make sure that I've had the time to stay aware.

Of the areas in our cultural moment that need addressed and that I would have the time, that's not just like weekend time or nights or you know, or early mornings to make sure I'm spending time, um, in preparation for the things I'm called to lead. And so by my board coming in and, and bringing a leadership perspective that says, Hey, we, we wanna make sure we're equipping you with the best team around you with the right structure.

So that you don't burn out so that you don't get five more years into this and go, I, I'm done. Like, I can't, I can't do it. Um, there's the, the burden's too much. Uh, I think that's allowed us, for Rebecca and I to be able to lead in such a way that we know when we're starting to feel that pinch or feeling like we're, there's too many hours.

And, and, and a not enough hours in a day, too many hours of the work, I can go to my board and say, Hey, we're struggling with this. Will you just help us work through that? And they'll get very practical. I mean, we'll get on the whiteboard, we'll, we'll talk through strategies of how to time block better, of, of how to really evaluate, you know, do we have the right people in the right places?

Have we have we really thought through every possible way. To solve these problems and, and your board becomes this support, um, when you're able to open up to them and be honest about those vulnerabilities you're feeling. And so that means there has to be a high trust with the board. Uh, and, and it might not be the whole board that you're as close to, but maybe an executive committee or a, a few members of the board that, that really have your care in mind.

Um, with our board, we have an executive committee and, and that group of people, um. You know, they, they have in mind maybe more than the other board members, the care of me and Rebecca as leaders. And so that allows us to have some very, more, even more personal conversations, um, that they can take into consideration and take back to the whole board, uh, on our behalf.

About what, what should take place or how can we think about this differently, uh, to preserve the health, emotional health, mental health, physical, spiritual health of our leadership.

[00:16:48] Michael Martin: I love that you bring up time because you know, in a lot of the conversations that we have about, you know, just different ways that leaders can be cared for.

You know, you, you do think of the physical health, the emotional health course, spiritual, uh, but time that's so good because it is the most precious resource that all of us have. I know as leaders like feeling the demands of time. I really, uh, appreciate what you said there about time. Um, you know, the, the other thing I wanted to ask you too is, Gabe, has that always been the culture on your board or is that something that's had to be sort of cultivated over time or you've seen the importance of it over time?

I.

[00:17:26] Gabe Lyons: Well, you know, being an organization that now I think we're in our 22nd year, you know, early on that would not have been how I thought about a board. You know, I, I, I had to grow in my own understanding of the ways in which boards work. And I know for different organizations they have different styles and, and approaches.

Those early years were very much about the board was there working alongside. We were, we were just trying to. Launch things and prove things and see if we had a viable, um, mission here that, that had traction in the world. So, so there was less time for, and there wasn't even discussions really 22 years ago about mental health.

I mean, that wasn't even a phrase I'd ever heard. Um, I. Emotional health like that, that it was, it was pretty much like hard charging. Like, Hey, if you're a leader, you're getting things done. It's up and to the right. We don't have time for that kind of thing. So that, that wasn't the earliest of discussions.

But I would say, you know, probably, uh, about 12 years ago, so probably halfway through that journey as I started to really invite the board to, to take a. Uh, a role that could give more perspective to me as a leader. And I was, I was more humble, I would say, and, and willing to take the ideas. I felt like I was called to go lead and actually put them before a body of people to say, Hey, are these good ideas or not?

Um, I think it was in my thirties, you know, late in my thirties, I just started to realize like, okay. I used to think I had the best ideas in the room. I think I understand that some ideas didn't work and they weren't the best ideas and I, and I failed, or we've lost money. Yeah. 'cause I made this dumb decision.

And I think it's through those learnings and those failings, you start to go, wait, God's kind of got a great design here of accountability, of wisdom. Uh, you know, the, even the way a 5 0 1 C3 and and a structure is set up is great in that, that. That, that accountability, that that sense that I'm not the only person here responsible for this.

There's a team of people that are really entrusted with this organization that I get to work alongside and benefit from. Uh, and so I'd say now that the second half of the organization's mission, there's been such an emphasis on. The, the board and their role where it's, it's less of a working board coming alongside to get things done, and it's much more of a wisdom board.

It's a board that's helping us with vision. I run vision past them all the time. It's my most fun part of our board meetings. It's not, you know, we, we do have to do all the, the basic things that you do for governance, but in addition to that, the most fun I have is bouncing by them. Hey, here's, here's two ideas.

Here's two new things we want to consider launching in the next year or two. And I want to hear from you guys, like, what do you think and what am I missing and, and how can I think about this better? Um, and it's, it's been that that's probably saved us, uh, you know, 10 times from making mistakes because they've had wisdom that said, no, it's not the right timing.

Or, I think you're trying to accomplish too much. Because as an idea guy, like I can have five new ideas in the next week that I think are great, and maybe they are great, but they're not all executable. And to have a board that says, look, great idea, not the right timing, that's wisdom. And so I think I've just learned, and Rebecca and I both have just learned over time, man, trust that wisdom.

It's, it's really been so good, uh, for us because as a, as a leader that's driven. It, it can be, you have to be so careful. Ambition does not take over and, and that it stays a holy ambition, which means it's tethered to God, it's aligned with his purposes, and the timing is not rushed. Um, it's, it's when the doors open, it's when the, the wisdom that you've put around you affirms like, this is the moment.

And so I think as a leader, it's, it's learning to trust that, uh, and trust God that he's provided this type of covering literally to benefit and protect you.

[00:21:05] Michael Martin: Yeah. No, that's good. Holy ambition. I'd love to connect that thought to something you said earlier too, which was, um, you were kind of touching on how as a leader, having humility really takes actually a lot of pressure off of what it is that we're doing.

Um, talk to us a little bit more about that. Like what, what have you seen either in yourself or in other leaders of how when we approach this work. In a spirit of humility, that's actually a gift.

[00:21:31] Gabe Lyons: Well, it's, it's, uh, ironic to talk about humility and, and try to act like I have anything to say to it. Right.

That's, that's humility and how I achieved it, you know, whole thing. Yeah. They, they always say don't talk about humility, like it should be the thing we don't talk about. But I think, I think I've learned the hard way, you know, my pride. It definitely can get in the way in in leadership. Like I want things to be successful.

I, when I connect any of the things that we do to my own identity, that's when it gets outta whack, right? That's when it becomes, can become an unhealthy ambition. Because my own insecurity would mean I, I want people to like what we're doing. I want people to attend the things that we're doing. I want there to be momentum.

And so I think what I've had to learn, you know, early on I'd, I'd say very early on I learned. Uh, do not track or measure progress by the standards of, of metrics that, um, are, are only gonna be up into the right type of growth. Um, be careful about that. I, I'm not saying healthy organizations shouldn't see growth.

They should. I, I believe that, but I also think early on I learned like. Um, impact can happen in about a hundred ways in God's economy and his kingdom that we will never be able to measure on this earth. And so whether that means, you know, when we started our conferences, there were, there were smaller events.

They, they were not huge events. I'd say even today, we don't host huge events. You know, our biggest event will be this October with 2000 leaders. That'll be the biggest event we've ever hosted. You know, every weekend there's events with thousands of people showing up, right? Well, that's just not. Ever been our main metric, our metric has been how do we impact leaders that will then impact thousands of leaders, and we will never maybe even know the ripple effect of one leader's worldview changing, of one leader feeling courageous to lead in this cultural moment, how God will use all of that.

And so part of humility is changing the metrics to say, I'm gonna trust God with outcomes. I'm not gonna just trust myself with with the outcomes. Um. I think it also means submission, and that's what we've been talking a bit about, right? It's submission to a group of people around you to say. I don't think I always have the best ideas and, and I need to be okay that some of my ideas aren't the best.

Uh, and I need to trust my team more, and I'm gonna trust the council and the group that's been put around me for, for input and wisdom. Now, that doesn't mean I'm gonna abdicate my role as leader, maybe as decision maker. Um, my board even really trusts me with final decision making on several fronts, but I always am, am, uh, made better by inviting that input.

Um, and then I think finally humility is, is man, just constantly coming back to the fact that we're creatures, that God doesn't need us to do any of this and that any of the work I'm doing, like God could do it much quicker if he wanted to through someone else, probably I. It's like we get to go on this journey together and, and God and I are working together, like aligned on a mission and it's a privilege to be in mission with him.

And, and I think I recognize that can go away any moment. I recognize he doesn't need me, uh, to do this. Um, and I think, I think we just have to keep reminding ourself of that because. The way our world works, the way leadership's treated, the way a leader that, you know, you know, as someone like myself writes books or speaks, you know, people can quickly try to treat you like you're something special.

And I think this is where having a great wife is huge because mm-hmm. She, she's able to always remind me of that. And I have to her like that, that sharpening of each other. It's, it's having good local friendships that could care less about what you do. Uh, one, one of my good friends says, and I would say to any leader listening to this.

You know, you need to surround yourself with confidants that love you for who you are, not for what you do or what you do for them. Which means it's, it's difficult to have confidants that work for you. Uh, and, and I know for a lot of leaders, some of their best friends are the people they're working with.

That can also be very dangerous because, um, you know, when you're paying. Salary of someone, or they're gaining some benefit from being, you know, part of what you're doing. There's always this risk that motivations can get twisted. And so what I love for, for myself is, is I'm surrounded with a group of friends who love me and do not benefit from anything that I do.

And that's provided such great, um. Levity, um, perspective, and, and I think that allows me to never get too caught up in thinking more of what we do or what I'm doing or what I'm called to do, um, than what it, how it should be properly viewed. I.

[00:26:03] Michael Martin: Yeah. Thank you for those insights all so good. Um, I feel like we're putting you on that hot seat today of like, you're helping us think well about some different things, but one of those, um, and I don't think we even necessarily even intended to go here, but just the idea of what it looks like for leaders to think well about, um, impact measurement or, or fruitfulness? You talked about not necessarily falling into like the sort of the world's way of things of like everything always up into the right and those kind of metrics and measurements. Um, maybe just in a minute or two help us with what, what is it that you have learned about, how do you manage that tension with, at the same time, uh, looking for signs of fruitfulness or evaluation?

How have you processed that as a leader?

[00:26:52] Gabe Lyons: No, that's good. Good question. 'cause it's such a tension and that's the best word to describe is, is there is a tension that healthy things grow and you, you, I think. One of the things I learned early on as we entered into 5 0 1 C3 World as an organization that really didn't have a lot of donor funding, our, our main F focus, uh, and some of that was just more of an entrepreneurial mindset that I had coming out of a organization that was entrepreneurial before I launched this nonprofit, um, was to really focus on creating value for customers.

And you would know if it was valuable because they would pay for it. Um, not because you had enough money to just give it away, and I think that earned income approach, which for many I, I'd say the first. 15 to 18 years of this organization, almost 80% of our revenue was earned income. People buying tickets to events or paying for resources.

Um, those types of things have been a great measure because then you understand, well, there's value. People are willing to pay for value the last few years because we've really been trying to fuel even more expansion and growth and reach the next generation, which has less dollars. To invest in some of these things we've had to discount prices, we have to do a lot of differences.

Means our donor side has picked up to almost 50% of the organization now, uh, being donor funded. And we still have to keep measurements in place. Uh, we still evaluate every year, every event, uh, by, by, you know, surveys and, and all the ways that you evaluate whether something's working. Uh, we, we practice all those things and I would say almost every year we put back on the table the products that we're offering and the initiatives we're doing and, and try to evaluate, is this still effective?

Is this still gaining traction? Is it, do people come if they're not interested? Why are they not interested? What should we shift and change about this offering? Um, so even this last year, we had an event we'd done for four years in a row and we decided we're not gonna do that event again. Hmm. Um, it's not the right season, it's not the right timing.

Um. We're evaluating a new set of events and, and, uh, you know, evening type tour events that we're looking at doing in the, the year ahead. And we said, Hey, we think that's the timing's right for that. We don't even have a great metric. We just sense God's guiding and leading us to start to create an offering like that.

And so we're gonna go to work on, well, how would we make sure that's the most effective, impactful, reaching the right people? How are we going to measure it? And so we come back around something that we feel that we're being led towards through a series of experiences, conversations, prayers, um, alignment board, you know, encouragement.

Uh, and then we go, well, if we're gonna do it, we gotta measure it. And so, you know, we use dashboards consistently. You know, every Monday morning I'm with a lead team going through a series of dashboard metrics of what happened in the last week. And I think, you know, picking the scoreboard of how are we going to measure literal results is an important part of leading an organization.

Um, but I think we have to always bring that around into this perspective of, okay. How's God leading is, is there something you know we're doing that we should stop doing? 'cause we can tell it's not effective. Um, and I think for some, some 5 0 1 c threes I. That question doesn't get asked enough when there's enough funding and resource provided to just keep things going that you've always done and not always having that customer perspective that that proves to you whether the thing you're doing is valuable.

So I think that tension's a really important tension to try to integrate. So you're always evaluating it and you never get too comfortable, uh, with, with models that have just been perpetuated forever. Yeah.

[00:30:26] Michael Martin: Well, thanks for helping us, uh, wrestle with that tension a little bit today. Um, you know, something else you, you said earlier too, which is, uh, is gold is the importance of, uh, having a spouse, right, who can speak truth and who really is a, a solid partner.

And I've just appreciated, uh, and get to know Rebecca, just the great person and leader that she is. And so one of the joint projects you guys have just gotten into recently is a new book, right? So tell us a little bit about that. What inspired you guys? What, what was it? Uh, yeah, maybe take us to even what you were just saying earlier of like discernment around timing.

Like what did you feel like was the right timing for this particular project?

[00:31:05] Gabe Lyons: Well, you know, we've, over these years of hosting leaders, we, we recognize marriage tends to be the, the, the point of attack that the enemy uses all the time. In leaders lives and having a healthy marriage is everything to confidence, to successful leadership, to integrity.

And so Rebecca and I, you know, our marriage of now 28 years has, has been a marriage that's gone through its own ups and downs, but it's, it's always been what we called the title of this book. It's called The Fight for Us. And we, we think every marriage is in a fight and you're either a fight against one another or you're coming together and you're fighting against the enemy's attack against your marriage.

And this takes skills, it takes humility, it takes confession, repentance. It takes an ongoing process of commitment to one another, to God, to health. And so, uh, Rebecca and I, you know, in our own journey, we've been leading retreats for many years for, for leaders and we have found that there's been some things we've learned in our journey that have been helpful to other couples, um, especially couples who find themselves maybe just living in status quo.

Like, we're married, we're good. It's not great, but it's working, you know? And, and I think that's always the phrase that, that alarms us. When somebody says it's working, it's not great. It's working. You know, that's, that's alarm bells because I think that's where the enemy wants all of our marriages, is just kind of, we're a little dissatisfied, status quo, not thriving, and, and God wants us to experience flourishing.

This person and this spouse relationship that he is given us, it's the closest to us. And so, uh, Rebecca and I really through this book, the Fight for Us walked through, you know, some of the, the ways that. We could all grow in how we're fighting. Number one to recognize, hey, every marriage has its fights, and there's certain ways we do it that that can be very unhealthy, and we need to understand why we're doing that, and we need to understand how to recover.

But one of the big motivations for fighting, I. Is our lifestyle. We're overwhelmed, we're overscheduled. And I think for leaders especially, their marriage starts to take a backseat. They start to make decisions and transitions. They quickly see each other. They're moving to one event to the next. Um, there isn't this blocked time that's dedicated to just them as a couple.

So one of our encouragement is to couples to make sure they're committing time to each other every week. You know, Rebecca and I try to spend at least 15 minutes a day. In the evening, just connecting without the kids with one another. And some days it doesn't happen. But that's, that's our goal, that's the bar, is let's make sure there's eye to eye conversation.

Mm-hmm. Maybe we'll go for a walk, but whatever we can do to just make sure we connect from the day, we don't wanna lose connection and, and create more division. Um. In addition to that, we've always committed time to get away together at least once a year. Um, we, we structure that in, even when we had small children.

I, I'll often joke Rebecca's, you know, tries to clarify it because I'll say, look, if, if the. Babysitter had a heartbeat. There was moments we would hire the babysitter to watch our children so we could just get time away because it was so important to us. And Rebecca always qualifies at that. Of course, they had good referrals.

We, we, you know, a lot more than that. Make sure the kids were okay. Yeah. But I found too, some leaders, they're so busy with life, with career, that carving out that time to say, I'm gonna stay connected to my wife or my husband. And in a, in a way that gets us out of the noise, keeps us reminded of why we married each other to start with.

And that we're not just roommates and we're not just parents, but we're lovers and we are on a mission together and we wanna be reminded of that, um, periodically, you know, those kind of structures. I think leaders should to take the lead and build into their life. Um, it can just be one night away. It doesn't have to be expensive.

This doesn't have to be something you're wealthy to do. This can be. Any of us can just be creative. Rebecca and I have been doing that since we were married, year one and had no money. We always have said, let's take the time and energy to, to do that. Um, and so the, the book really walks through the fight.

Why we fight. How we fight. But then we move to this, this area called from fighting to feeling. And Michael, I think this relates a lot to the, the emotional health side of, of leadership is that sometimes what it takes to be successful as a leader. In the past has been to sort of dismiss feelings and to sort of move forward and say, Hey, whatever happened yesterday, I'm moving forward.

I'm not looking back. We're going forward. We're taking the mountain, and that style of leadership might work great in a boardroom. It does not work great in a marriage. And so I had to go on that journey with Rebecca of really learning how to feel my feelings, something I had kind of abandoned early in our marriage.

Rediscovered. And so I try to tell that story honestly and vulnerably about my journey towards that. And then the healing that that's brought in our marriage of intimacy, of connection. And then we try to apply that, we call it from, from feeling to healing and how that applies to your career between both.

I. Partners, how it applies to your money, how it applies to how it applies to sex, how it applies to community, and, and how it ultimately applies to parenting and all the big areas that tend to create the most tension for couples. We try to address every single one of them in a healed way. What does this look like when we're emotionally healed?

And then we're partnered together again so we can have a flourishing marriage. And then we complete it by talking about the structures. How do you structure rhythms? In your marriage relationship, that means you stay tethered to one another and you keep the momentum going in the right direction. And so our hope is that this will really help couples, um, who, who we know, you know, a lot of the leaders listening.

They might have access to leadership, you know, to, to great counseling. We know for most people, they're waiting months and months and months to get in to see a marriage counselor there. There's a, a very few. That are available, especially the ones that are great. Mm-hmm. And so we've tried to take the best of what we've learned through many marriage counselors.

We've had, we've gone through it. We've had intensivess, you know, we've had, you know, you name it, and we've had some of the best that's helped us work through our marriage. We try to put that into this book to help couples. If they can't get into a marriage counselor, at least they can begin talking with one another and begin the healing process.

So each chapter has something we call couple conversations at the conclusion. Three questions designed on a date night, maybe over breakfast or coffee to just pose to your spouse. That gets a new conversation, started gets, gets a little bit of a reset happening in the marriage, and that over time can allow you to be talking and healing together.

[00:37:22] Michael Martin: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that with us. Um, I have no doubt it's gonna be a huge help, uh, to everybody that takes advantage of that. Um, I love Gabe how you framed a lot of this around that word healing, and I think even talk about this idea that. Um, healed people, heal people like we often hear the, like, hurt people, hurt people.

But this idea of, um, healed people, heal people. Talk about how you see that, uh, you know, whether that's in marriage or in leadership, but how healed people, uh, do bring about greater healing.

[00:37:56] Gabe Lyons: Well, I, I just think this is the mission of God in each of our lives, right? He restores us. He redeems us. And then he puts us on a mission to help anyone else, you know, with what we've been able to recover and we're so excited about.

And Rebecca and I have both seen that in our journey. Rebecca tells her story often of, of suffering from panic attacks and anxiety and a, a lot of things about, you know, a decade or more ago when we moved to New York City, she experienced this for the first time in her life. And, um, what's amazing is like her first panic attacks happened on a plane, you know, where she felt claustrophobic.

That's how she kind of dealt with it. Well. Now she gets on a plane, you know, a few times a month to go minister to people. Telling her story of how God healed her through her own journey. And, and that's just the perfect picture of how God works. He, he heals us, but not just for our benefit. He heals us because he wants us to help other people experience the same kind of freedom we've experienced.

And so that's not only true in stories that are dramatic like that. I think it's also true in marriages that when, and, and that's what Rebecca and I try to do even in this, this book, is we try to be very honest and vulnerable about our worst moments. Um, and how God redeemed and healed and renewed, because our hope is, is by just opening up our story very honestly and transparently.

That will help another couple realize they're okay, they're gonna make it. Um, and I think that happens in the workplace as a leader. The, the more emotionally healthy we get, which of course is getting more attention, and I think mm-hmm. The work that you guys are doing to bring attention to this is critical.

The more emotionally healthy and present a leader can be. It impacts the entire staff. It impacts the culture, it impacts the way decisions are made throughout an organization. It creates a safe place for people who, I would say in our cultural moment, um, don't know where to go for, for safe space. Um, and I don't mean safe in the sense that we can't be honest and share, you know, the things we're experiencing or, or we're gonna be rejected, but, but safe in the sense that my leader understands that.

Rhythms are part of my life, healing's part of my life. Emotional health, mental health, physical health, spiritual health, that these all contribute to the whole person and will make me a better employee, a, be a better leader, a better manager if that conversation's also part of how we structure our work environments.

And so, um, yeah, tho it's a beautiful way that God's designed this whole thing to work that healed people. Heal people.

[00:40:14] Michael Martin: Yeah. Absolutely. And what you just touched on there at the end too, for, um. You know, staff members that are experiencing cultures where, um, maybe there's a leader that hasn't come onto this yet.

I know that's tricky. Like what advice would you give to somebody who's serving in an organization where maybe, uh, the senior leader's not there yet? Maybe they haven't seen like, the importance of. All the things we've talked about, whether it be the rhythms or the importance of vulnerability and leadership, what advice would you give to folks that are in that situation?

[00:40:46] Gabe Lyons: Well, each person, you know, takes responsibility for themself. None. None of us are victims of our environment or even who our manager is. I mean, each of us has to, I. Has to draw our own conclusions about how we wanna live our life. What are those rhythms going to be? How do we maintain health? I think in our work environments today, that's, that is a challenging topic, right?

Because it can go too far to where, you know, an employee thinks they're being paid. I. To, to be on your staff, you know, full-time to operate in all these spiritual practices and, and health practices. And, and I would say that's, that's not the design generally the, the design is that's gotta be incorporated into your life.

But to do that, you need to make sure work's not overburdening your schedule. So, so there has to be the boundaries around, you know, what am I responsible for? And, and I think some cultures get very unhealthy when they tell their people, Hey, this is your life and this is your, this, this should be your everything.

And they use phrases like, Hey, we're family. You know? And it's like, no, it's not your family. Like, like you work in an organization. There's a, there's kind of a mutual agreement of service there that's taking place, uh, a trade of sorts, right, of your goods, your talent, your skills. You're applied to the mission.

They don't own you. And I, and I think it's important for employees to recognize that, um, to have healthy conversations with managers or leaders where they feel in any way that, that they, there's not enough time to do the things they've been asked to do. Um, and to, to be honest about that, but, but also not to take advantage of it and then to say, Hey, in my own life I'm gonna make sure.

You know, my mornings, my evenings, my weekends, that I'm incorporating things into my life that help me maintain this level of health. And in our, in our world today, we're very overscheduled. We're obviously overstimulated through social media, and a lot of our time is getting drained through these things that don't input into our life.

They, they literally are neutral or, or complete outputs and exhausting. Uh, and so the more knowledgeable we get about the way that's happening, whether it's the food we're eating or the way we're investing time. We can make some changes in our life to provide more energy, excitement, enthusiasm, clear thinking, uh, that will allow us to engage in our work, uh, in a way that hopefully is adding value to the mission of the organization and to the leader that you're serving.

I know when I began in my first job, that was one principle I, I learned very early if, if I can help the leader I'm serving, be more successful than I will be successful. And I, and I saw that play out. You know, throughout my career that has always been a principle that my number one job is to serve humbly, um, not cross lines of boundaries, but to serve humbly of this leader that's asking things of me.

And, and when I can do that and I can do that in a healthy way, then uh, there's gonna be all kinds of opportunity that comes along with that.

[00:43:29] Michael Martin: Yeah, that's great, Gabe. Well, hey, this conversation's been helpful on so many fronts. I know we could, we could continue on for a long time, but one thing I do want to be sure we, we touch on too before we wrap it up here is, I know a lot of what drives you is thinking about the next generation.

Um, that's kind of a, one of the ultimate objectives that's driving all the different things that are happening at THINQ and in your leadership. So, um. Yeah. Why, how do you see, I guess, the connection between some of the things that we talked about today, whether it's the health of leadership or thinking well about culture, the importance of, of rhythms.

How do you see that ultimately connecting to this goal of just making sure that we have a, a good future for the next generation?

[00:44:11] Gabe Lyons: Yeah. Well, this particular next generation, if we, if we look at kind of the 30 and under that Gen Z group, I mean, they are dealing with the most pressures we've ever seen a generation deal with related to their mind, their emotional distress, their literal stress, and, and whether as a, as older generations, we think they should feel that or not.

And, and we could debate that all day long. Like, well, why are they stressed? They don't, the, the reality is that's what they're experiencing, that's what they're feeling. And so. Um, they also have, I think, a, an openness to these conversations because they've grown up now in a culture where there's been just more dialogue about it.

Whereas I know from my parents, like they were part of a silent generation, you know, they didn't grow up talking about feelings and processing. You just, you just made sure you could put food on the table. Provide, you know, you just kind of get it done. You stay committed to each other and you get it done.

And I, and I think we're in a new environment where, because our culture's more open to feelings and those conversations, um, it's creating an opportunity to engage it. Now the opportunity we're seeing at THINQ is, is also, there's an area being lost, critical thinking. And, and we need young leaders to think well.

About the cultural moment, about the questions that are arising. They need to engage their mind and their heart, so it's not logic and reason only, but also the heart. What, what is God saying to us and how do we have discernment and how do we invite the Holy Spirit in to, to help us discern how to navigate?

The culture that we're in, the questions that are arising from our peers, our friends, how do we do it with boldness? And so what Rebecca and I see in this next gen is such a zeal that they're bold and they're courageous. Remind me of young Jonathan. You know, Saul as his, you know, father was old and kind of laying back and sitting back and Jonathan had zeal.

He said, no, we're gonna go attack the Philistines. Like. I'm gonna go after this. Um, and that's what I see in this next generation. But what they need is wisdom. And so one of the, one of the features of our next summit we're doing even is we've, we've called these three groups. The next gen, the Now Gen, and the how Gen and, and we're using those terms very specifically.

The next gen is that youngest generation. They're coming up, they need mentoring, they need support. The Now Gen is a group that's right now on the front lines. They've been leading maybe for a while. They have influence. They're engaging at the highest levels of their industry, of their work. Um, and they have opportunity to pour into the next gen, to, to equip them with, with skills.

Um, but then we have the how gen, which is the gen that's gone before us. They've got wisdom. They know how to lead businesses, companies, they're great at sitting at home boards. They're great with advice and counsel. They've, they've probably learned a few things about finances and marriage and.

Cultivating community and the value of all that. And, and we need all these generations mixing. We can't just have a movement that's all next gen. We need the how gen to help the next gen know how to do life, how to do this well, how to finish well. We need the now gen to be motivated and inspired and educated on how to lead well in this moment.

Um, and we need the next gen to inspire all of us to realize, hey, this isn't about us. This is about God's continual work through generations. Let's pass down what, what I know when I was in my twenties, I didn't have. What we're trying to provide to this generation. And so we hope that the emphasis on the next gen doesn't just raise up a next gen, it, it raises up a next gen and a Hagen and a algen, and we're all working together.

And, and I think that's God's beautiful design of the generations and how the kingdom functions. And so, um, if anybody's listening and you're going, Hey, I didn't. I didn't, I thought I was a boomer. We're like, no, you're not. You're a how gen, you've got a lot to offer to the world. Yep. And the world might call you a boomer, but we're telling you, you know, how to do a lot of things that this gen is hungry for.

I've never seen a group more interested in mentoring for, and, and for example, at our events, we now set up mentoring tables. People sign up based on. Questions that they have, the skill sets of the mentors. And so we're, we're trying to be very intentional to, to create that, uh, that pathway and that bridge to allow this kind of mentoring and trans transferring, not just of wealth that we know is happening from one generation to the next, but a transfer of wisdom that we think is gonna be even more important than the wealth transfer.

[00:48:11] Michael Martin: I love the vision for that, regardless of where we fall, um, there's a place for all of us to play in reaching the next generation. So, Gabe, thank you so much. Thanks for your insights today. Thanks for your leadership, uh, all the great work that's being done through THINQ, uh, and you're, you're a great friend to ECFA.

We appreciate

[00:48:29] Gabe Lyons: you. Thank you, Michael. Love what you guys are doing and anyways, we can support you. Please let us know.

[00:48:36] Ryan Gordon: Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal Podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.