This AI-generated podcast reviews a blog by attorney Carmela M. Miraglia of Lynch & Owens entitled, Divorcing a Narcissist: Breaking the Cycle of Coercive Control.
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Ever heard that saying, like, divorce brings out the worst in people? Mhmm. Imagine going through it with someone who's got, like, strong narcissistic tendencies. Yeah. Talk about stressful.
Host 1:Right? So today, we're going deep into that, like, how narcissism can really mess with divorce, especially here in Massachusetts.
Host 2:Yeah. And the thing is we're not trying to be, like, you know, armchair psychologists or anything
Host 1:like that. No diagnoses here.
Host 2:Exactly.
Host 1:We're focused on, like, the practical stuff. Yeah. We're gonna be looking at this blog by Carmela Moraglia.
Host 2:Okay.
Host 1:She's a Massachusetts attorney at Lynch and Owens, and she specializes in divorce and family law. She really gets into how these personality types, you know, play out in court.
Host 2:And that's important. This is Massachusetts specific. Divorce laws, especially stuff about child custody and domestic violence, they can be totally different depending on what state you're in.
Host 1:Absolutely. Big disclaimer here. We are powered by AI, not lawyers.
Host 2:Yeah.
Host 1:This is all just information. K? If you're going through a divorce, especially one with all this, complexity, talk to a real lawyer.
Host 2:Yeah. For sure. Think of this as, like, a landscape overview, not legal advice.
Host 1:Exactly. So Miraglia's blog really stresses this thing about focusing on behaviors, not just labels.
Host 2:Mhmm.
Host 1:It's not about calling your ex a narcissist. It's more about recognizing those actions that, you know, fit what psychologists call narcissistic traits.
Host 2:Right. And those traits are outlined in the DSM 5, you know, the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders. It's like the big book for mental health pros. Now you don't have to, like, memorize the whole DSM to get how narcissism impacts divorce.
Host 1:No. No. It's about seeing the pattern.
Host 2:Exactly. Like, Miraglia talks about how for someone with these tendencies, divorce proceedings can become like a performance. Their self esteem is actually fragile, so this whole process is super threatening to them. Yeah. So they might lash out or be manipulative.
Host 1:So not always, like, yelling and screaming?
Host 2:Well, sometimes.
Host 1:Yeah.
Host 2:But often, it's more subtle. Think about it. They might actually use the legal system as a weapon dragging things out, twisting facts, even provoking you to get a reaction.
Host 1:That sounds exhausting.
Host 2:It is. You're constantly fighting this, like, invisible wall of manipulation and often racking up legal fees while you're at it.
Host 1:Yeah. And I imagine when kids are involved, that's when things get super messy.
Host 2:Oh, that's when it gets heartbreaking. A narcissist need to win is already intense, but divorce with kids, forget it. Moralia has this example in her blog where there's this father who's obsessed with being seen as the favorite parent. He sabotages his ex wife's attempts to move closer to her family so she can get support. It's all about control and how things look
Host 1:for them. So they might use those same tactics on their kids that they used on their spouse?
Host 2:Yeah. Sadly.
Host 1:Yeah.
Host 2:It's called parental alienation, and it can be so damaging. It's not always like blatant bad mouthing either. It's more like this constant drip, drip, drip of these subtle undermining comments. Playing the victim, creating situations where the kid feels like they have to choose sides.
Host 1:This is like a minefield. Yeah. So beyond those clinical criteria, are there other red flags Moraglia mentions? Like things that might point to these tendencies during a divorce?
Host 2:She's got this really insightful list, things you might notice that go beyond those 9 core traits. It's all about patterns, remember, not slapping on labels.
Host 1:Okay. Give me some examples.
Host 2:One that jumps out is his sense of entitlement.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:They expect special favors, demand you do what they say, no questions asked. Often, they have this inflated view of how important they are. It's like their needs always come before anyone else's no matter the cost.
Host 1:Yeah. I can see how that would make negotiating a divorce settlement pretty tricky.
Host 2:Totally. Compromise isn't exactly in their vocabulary. It's all about keeping that superior feeling. Another thing Marilia talks about is this constant need for admiration. It's not just being vain.
Host 2:It's deeper than that.
Host 1:So maybe exaggerating achievements, talking over everyone, always having to one up people.
Host 2:You got it. And during a divorce, this makes it almost impossible to have a productive conversation. They don't care about seeing your point of view. It's all about feeding their ego.
Host 1:And I bet any kind of criticism is just met with a wall.
Host 2:Oh, absolutely. They can't handle it. Any feedback, even if you're trying to be constructive, they see it as a personal attack. They might fly off the handle, hold grudges, or just totally deflect the blame.
Host 1:Which, again, makes solving conflicts really tough.
Host 2:Yep. And, you know, it's interesting. Miraglia also says narcissists are often fixated on success, power, beauty, or the ideal partner.
Host 1:I can see how that plays into a divorce for sure.
Host 2:Totally. Their high standards might have been part of why the marriage fell apart in the first place. So they might be laser focused on finding a new partner who fits their unrealistic criteria, or they might use the divorce to prove to everyone how desirable they are.
Host 1:So we've been talking about how narcissists act during a divorce, but do they ever actually file for divorce themselves? Seems counterintuitive. Right? They need all that control.
Host 2:That's a great question. And it might be surprising, but, yes, they absolutely can be the ones to file. Remember, they're all about control and admiration. So if their spouse isn't meeting those inflated needs anymore, they might file.
Host 1:So if their partner isn't feeding their ego or constantly validating them?
Host 2:Exactly. Or maybe they've found a new source of admiration somewhere else like an affair. Even when they're the ones initiating the split, they'll find a way to twist the story and blame their spouse for the divorce.
Host 1:Because admitting any fault would like totally shatter that perfect image they've built.
Host 2:Exactly. They'll make themselves the victim, the one who is wronged, even if that's not the reality at all.
Host 1:Sounds like they're pros at rewriting history to protect their fragile ego.
Host 2:That's a big part of it. And all of this makes divorcing a narcissist so much harder.
Host 1:Yeah. We've been talking about some emotionally heavy stuff. Let's get real about how this plays out legally. Divorce is already draining emotionally and financially. How do these tendencies make those challenges even worse?
Host 2:Well, think about their motivation. It's usually not about being fair or finding an outcome that works for both sides.
Host 1:Right.
Host 2:It's about winning, about punishing their spouse, and holding on to that sense of superiority we talked about.
Host 1:So you're not exactly starting negotiations on equal footing?
Host 2:Not at all. You're dealing with someone who might actually get off on the conflict and drama. They love the back and forth, the power struggles, the chance to manipulate and control everything.
Host 1:So compromise is basically a no go.
Host 2:It can feel that way. And that sense of entitlement often extends to money matters too. They might demand way more than their fair share of assets, try to hide income, even use the kids as bargaining chips to get what they want.
Host 1:Oh, wow. So how do lawyers even approach this? Are there strategies that actually work when you're dealing with someone like this?
Host 2:You know, Miraglia lays out some really insightful approaches that lawyers use. I think these offer good lessons for anyone going through this.
Host 1:Okay. Let's get tactical. What's first thing to remember?
Host 2:The most important thing is getting their real motives. You gotta remember, under all that arrogance and need to control, there's often this deep insecurity driving them.
Host 1:So see past the bluster and recognize the fear behind it.
Host 2:Exactly. Once you get what's really motivating them, you can start to figure out their next move and come up with counter strategies, like a game of chess, you know.
Host 1:Oh, I like that. What else can help?
Host 2:Well, no two narcissists are the same. So figuring out their specific weaknesses is key.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:Some might be obsessed with their image, others might crave drama and attention, and still others might be really sneaky with their manipulations.
Host 1:So you're looking for what makes this specific person tick?
Host 2:Precisely. What makes them vulnerable? What are they most scared of? What can you use to nudge them towards a solution?
Host 1:Sounds like a delicate dance.
Host 2:Oh, it is. And probably the hardest part is helping the client themselves deal with all the manipulation and stay strong.
Host 1:Yeah. Because dealing with this kind of personality during a divorce, it's gotta be so draining.
Host 2:It's a total roller coaster. Gaslighting, blame shifting, 0 empathy, it wears you down. So it's about validating their experience, helping them see through the manipulation, reminding them of their own worth and strength.
Host 1:Giving them tools to stay grounded and focused on what they want to achieve.
Host 2:Exactly. A big part of that is helping them detach emotionally from the narcissist's behavior. It's so easy to get sucked into their drama and games. Understanding the dynamics helps create some distance and protect your well-being.
Host 1:This has been so eye opening. We've covered a lot. Understanding those traits, the impact on kids, the challenges of negotiation, even some lawyer strategies.
Host 2:Mhmm.
Host 1:But Miraglia mentioned another concept I wanna touch on before we move on, coercive control. What is that exactly?
Host 2:This is where things get really powerful. It goes beyond individual traits and gives us a framework to understand a wider pattern of abuse.
Host 1:So not just isolated incidents.
Host 2:Right. Coercive control means recognizing that abuse can be systematic and sneaky using a bunch of tactics to dominate and control a partner.
Host 1:Emeraglia says this happens a lot in divorces with narcissism.
Host 2:Absolutely. It's about seeing the patterns. They might use manipulation, gaslighting, financial abuse, sometimes even physical violence to keep their power and control.
Host 1:So it's not just those obvious acts of aggression. It's the subtle ways they chip away at your independence and sense of self.
Host 2:You got it. That's why understanding coercive control is crucial. It helps you see those hidden patterns and gives you a way to intervene and get support.
Host 1:So how does this look in a real relationship? How can someone tell if it's happening to them?
Host 2:Well, some common signs are things like being isolated from your friends and family, having your partner control all the money Mhmm. Being constantly put down or criticized, feeling scared to say what you think, being gaslighted so much, you start to doubt your own reality.
Host 1:It sounds like slowly losing your sense of self bit by bit.
Host 2:It absolutely can be. And that's why getting help if you see these patterns is so important. There are resources out there to support you.
Host 1:And for divorce cases, what can an expert in coercive control do?
Host 2:They can be so helpful. They can help document the abuse, provide expert testimony in court, and support the victim as they navigate the legal system. It's about bringing those hidden dynamics into the light.
Host 1:Holding the abuser accountable for what they've done.
Host 2:Exactly. And that's crucial to protect the victim and any children.
Host 1:This has been heavy, but so important. Before we wrap up this part of our deep dive, I wanna say divorcing a narcissist is incredibly tough. You are not alone.
Host 2:So important to remember that there are resources, strategies, and people out there who get it.
Host 1:Miraglia talks about how vital it is to have an attorney who really gets it. Someone who can guide you through this complicated process and fight for you.
Host 2:Absolutely. You need someone on your side who understands all these dynamics and can navigate them effectively.
Host 1:We'll be back in a bit to keep exploring narcissism and divorce. Stay with us.
Host 2:Yeah. So welcome back to our deep dive into, you know, all the twists and turns of divorcing a narcissist. Before the break, we were talking about coercive control. It can be so subtle. You don't even know it's happening until it's too late.
Host 1:Like a spider web. Right. Slowly trapping you without you even noticing. And the scary thing is, like Moralia points out, this kind of control isn't always about physical violence.
Host 2:Exactly. It's often this pattern of emotional manipulation, like controlling finances, isolating you from your support system, even using the kids as pawns in their game.
Host 1:Yeah. Her blog really lays it out how these tactics play out in a divorce. It's like they'll use anything to undermine their spouse, control a story, and win no matter what.
Host 2:And that's what makes this different from a regular divorce. It's not just the emotional stuff and logistics. You're dealing with someone who might turn the whole legal process into a weapon.
Host 1:Like, they see the divorce as a way to dominate and control even in court.
Host 2:Yeah. That's a good way to put it. They might stall things, make crazy demands, try to turn the kids against you, or even drain your bank account with endless legal battles.
Host 1:It sounds devastating emotionally and financially. So what can someone do if they're in this situation? What steps can they take to protect themselves and their kids?
Host 2:Well, the first thing, and it's super important, is to get a lawyer who really understands narcissistic personality disorder and coercive control.
Host 1:So not just any divorce lawyer will cut it.
Host 2:Right. You need someone who can see through the manipulation, predict their tactics, and fight for your rights effectively.
Host 1:Someone who won't get sucked into the drama and all the mind games.
Host 2:Exactly. You need someone who's calm, strategic, and always focused on your goals and what's best for the kids, if there are any.
Host 1:So how do you find that perfect lawyer? What should you look for?
Host 2:Well, start by finding someone who specializes in high conflict divorces or who has experience with narcissistic personality disorder specifically.
Host 1:Don't be afraid to ask them directly about their experience.
Host 2:Right. You have a right to know. Look for someone who's a good listener who gets it, you know, empathetic and someone you feel comfortable talking to. This is gonna be a long road, probably stressful, so you need someone you can trust.
Host 1:You need that connection knowing they're on your side.
Host 2:Absolutely. But you also want someone who's a fighter, you know, someone who won't back down from a narcissist and will stand up for what's right.
Host 1:So that balance of compassion and strength.
Host 2:Exactly. And trust your gut. If something feels off about a lawyer, don't ignore it.
Host 1:It's a big decision. Feeling confident is crucial.
Host 2:For sure. And, you know, we've talked about the tough parts of this kind of divorce, but I wanna end this section on a hopeful note. Even in these situations, there's always a chance to heal and move on.
Host 1:That's so important. It might not be easy. It might take time, but healing is definitely possible.
Host 2:Absolutely. So what's that journey like? A big part is focusing on yourself, taking care of yourself.
Host 1:Prioritizing your well-being. Right. Physically and emotionally, easy to forget that in a divorce.
Host 2:It is. So that might mean therapy, support groups, spending time in nature, getting back into hobbies you love, even just resting and recharging.
Host 1:Giving yourself permission to heal.
Host 2:Exactly. Rebuild your life on your own terms and surround yourself with good people who support you.
Host 1:People who believe in you, get what you've been through, and encourage you.
Host 2:It makes all the difference, and healing isn't always a straight line. There will be up and downs, setbacks, and breakthroughs.
Host 1:It's a journey, not a destination. Right?
Host 2:So true. Be patient with yourself, celebrate those wins, and don't be afraid to ask for help.
Host 1:You've been through so much. You've made it this far. You can come out of this stronger.
Host 2:You can thrive. This experience, as tough as it's been, can actually help you grow, discover more about yourself, and realize how strong and resilient you really are.
Host 1:If you're listening and going through this, to forcing someone with these tendencies, remember, you're not alone. There's hope, there's healing, and there's a brighter future waiting for you.
Host 2:And like we always say, knowledge is power. The more you understand, the better equipped you'll be to face this challenge head on and create a life filled with peace, joy, and real connection.
Host 1:That's a perfect way to wrap up this part of our discussion. Thanks for sticking with us as we go deep into this complex topic of divorcing someone with narcissistic tendencies. And, please, if you're going through this, reach out for help. You don't have to do this alone.
Host 2:And we're back for the final part of our deep dive. You know, divorcing someone with narcissistic tendencies, it can feel like this huge mountain to climb. But if there's one thing I've learned from Araglia's blog and our talk today, it's that knowledge really is power. So true. Understanding what's going on, like the whole dynamic, can help you protect yourself, make smart choices, and hopefully start feeling like you're back in control of your life even in a situation that feels chaotic.
Host 1:Exactly. It's not about labeling people who are playing therapist. Yeah. It's about seeing those patterns of behavior and realizing, hey. I'm not the only one dealing with this.
Host 2:Absolutely. And that brings us to a really important point that Miraglia makes having the right lawyer on your side can make a world of difference.
Host 1:Yeah. You can't just go with any divorce lawyer when you're dealing with someone like this. You need someone who understands the game.
Host 2:A 100%. You need a lawyer who can see what they're gonna do before they do it, who won't fall for the manipulation, and who will really fight for you.
Host 1:Someone who can stay above the drama and not get pulled into those mind games.
Host 2:You got it. You need someone who's calm, strategic, and always keeps their eye on what's best for you and the kids.
Host 1:So how do you find that perfect lawyer? Any tips?
Host 2:Well, first, look for someone who specializes in high conflict divorces, or better yet, someone with experience specifically in narcissistic personality disorder.
Host 1:Don't be shy about asking them directly about their experience.
Host 2:Yeah. It's your right to know. And look for someone who actually listens, who gets it. You know, like someone empathetic, someone you feel good talking to. This could be a long and stressful process, so trust is important.
Host 1:Yeah. That feeling of connection knowing they're in your corner.
Host 2:Totally. But you also want someone who's a strong advocate. You know? Someone who's not afraid to stand up to that narcissistic personality and fight for what's right.
Host 1:So it's finding that balance of compassion and toughness.
Host 2:Exactly. And don't ignore your gut feeling. If something feels off about a lawyer, trust your instincts.
Host 1:It's a huge decision. Feeling confident in your choice is key.
Host 2:You're right about that. And, you know, we've talked about a lot of the tough stuff, but I wanna end on a hopeful note. Even in these situations, there's always a chance to heal and move on.
Host 1:That's such an important message. It might not be a walk in the park, and it might take time, but healing is possible.
Host 2:Absolutely. So what does that look like? A big part is self care.
Host 1:Putting yourself first, right, both physically and emotionally. Yeah. It's so easy to forget that in the middle of a divorce.
Host 2:That's true. So that could mean therapy, support groups, maybe spending time outdoors, getting back into those hobbies you love, even just taking some time to rest and recharge.
Host 1:Giving yourself permission to heal.
Host 2:Exactly. Rebuild your life the way you want to and surround yourself with good people who support you.
Host 1:People who believe in you, understand what you've been through, and lift you up.
Host 2:It really makes a difference. And remember, healing isn't always straightforward. There will be good days and bad days, steps forward and steps back.
Host 1:It's a journey, not a destination. Right?
Host 2:So true. Be patient with yourself, celebrate your wins, and don't hesitate to ask for help if you need it.
Host 1:You've been through so much. You've come so far. You can absolutely come out of this stronger than before.
Host 2:You can thrive. This whole experience, as hard as it's been, can actually help you grow, learn more about yourself, and realize just how strong and resilient you really are.
Host 1:If you're listening and going through a divorce from someone with these tendencies, please remember, you're not alone. There is hope, there is healing, and there is a brighter future out there waiting for you.
Host 2:And as we always say, knowledge is power. The more you understand, the better you'll be able to face this challenge and build a life filled with peace, joy, and genuine connection.
Host 1:That's a perfect way to wrap up our conversation. Thanks for joining us for this deep dive into the complexities of divorcing someone with narcissistic tendencies. And, please, if you're going through this, don't be afraid to reach out for support. You don't have to face this alone.