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Two entrepreneurs named Adrian with completely different approaches to building companies.
One bootstrapped his way to success, the other raised venture capital and navigated the high-growth startup world. Each episode, they share raw, unfiltered conversations about the realities of entrepreneurship from opposite sides of the funding divide. Get insights you won't find anywhere else about what it really takes to build a business.
Hi, this is Adrian and I'm a
bootstrap founder.
This is Adrian and I'm a VC backed
founder.
And we are two agents working in a
startup.
agents working a startup.
So Adrian, would you, because
you're VC backed and bootstrap, I
don't understand what's money.
Like I've never seen money in my
life.
Would you take that check again?
Depends.
Depends, my friend.
If I have to build the same stack,
the same company that I built in
2020, nowadays I wouldn't take the
check.
I prefer to build the company from
scratch in a bootstrap way because
the technology advances a lot.
The open source market, it's more
and more developed.
was in 2020.
So, I mean, personally, I don't
have any strong opinions on this,
but I would assume that you
basically say, bro, you can vibe
code, you don't need money.
Is that what you're basically
saying?
In a way, yeah.
You can vibe code, you can build.
Basically, we built from scratch
our first version of the
algorithm.
Five years ago, we don't have a
lot of open resources.
We don't have a lot of open source
data set to train our algorithm.
So we have to pay people to
manually label the entire process.
So yeah, nowadays you can build
the same company that we built
five years ago.
tiny amount of money compared with
five years ago.
Yeah, I mean, for me, when I
started my business, I think I had
around 5 ,000 euros.
And I mean, I guess like at least
one, two K went to only just like,
how do you register a company?
How do you like, you know, like
wasting money?
And then the other stuff was, you
know, I don't know, just money
disappeared somehow by not doing
anything.
But I was working on the side, so
I never really had.
any funding so it was like okay
whatever money i saved instead of
buying bitcoin which i guess would
have been the better choice every
month i started like let's be
stupid and let's do a startup and
just put more money whenever i
needed more yeah the similar
amount of money also we invested
we are three co -founders we each
of one invested around 5000k euro
in the in the beginning and right
the similar amount of money also
we invested we are three co
-founders we each of one invested
around 5000k euro in the in the
beginning and right 5 ,000 euros
each, right?
Yeah.
Not 50k.
Okay, fine, yeah.
Yeah. 5 ,000 euros, yeah.
Oh, okay, I see.
But still, I think you would have
made more money if you took all
that money and your VC check and
just buy Bitcoin back then, right?
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
Yeah, so basically just don't do
startups, right?
Just put it in...
Invest in Bitcoin.
in Bitcoin.
Bitcoin, yeah, in the next
Mooncoin.
Or in NVIDIA.
in NVIDIA.
Nvidia in five years ago the stock
was a really really low price
compared with nowadays so probably
in five years they grow over 500
percent indeed yeah that's so yeah
um i guess do not do a startup now
okay i guess you it's like um yeah
that's so yeah um i guess do not
do a startup now okay i guess you
it's like um So what did it change
in every day?
It was just only that it was
easier to vibe code your startup
or was there other reasons why you
would not take money?
I wouldn't take money today
because when we take money, we...
take that amount of money to build
the algorithm to pay people to
label the data to pay the gpu to
train the algorithm so basically
we take that all check just to
train the algorithm and today we
have a lot of open source models
we can build the same company just
starting from open source models.
Five years ago, we didn't have a
lot of options to build a company
on open source.
When you, I mean, I don't know
about you, but at least when you,
I would assume if you got more
money, I think you would take
bigger risk, I would assume.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, because when you are a VC
-backed company, being a VC
-backed company means also you
have to grow fast and big.
So an exit of 10 millions for a VC
-backed company, it's like a
failure.
It's more like a zero exit for the
VC.
VC usually want you to become a
billion -dollar company.
Well, I mean, my biggest risk at
least was that you know, the extra
money which I had, I could have,
you know, I guess go for one more
extra vacation or do something
more interesting.
So I guess like, I'm not sure if I
was taking risks and just had the
more boring life.
So me taking the risk of a startup
was just work more.
I'm not sure it was really a risk
for me somehow.
I mean, there was some risk, of
course, because, you know, you
could have focused on other stuff
of your life.
Yeah, but being a VC -backed
company helps you to develop a
different kind of risk that you
are willing to take, because you
have to grow fast, you have to
grow big, so you don't have
nothing to lose.
So you have to take more and more
risk compared with another type of
company, a bootstrap company or
someone who is employed.
I guess also if you took your
bootstrap.
So when I started, I was working
on the side and eventually I
stopped working basically.
But in the early days, the risk is
still... there a bit because you
know you're still putting some
resources but I guess if you have
some money and you're like okay
quit my job for six months and you
go all in on this and let's say
you know you have like some
savings like half a year one year
I guess the feeling will be
similar because you know you're
still going all in because like
else I won't have even bread to
eat or I'll eat my bread outside
while begging right so I guess
there is something like that as
well now with that money I guess
also customer acquisition was
different for me at least I didn't
have no opportunity to pay for
paid ads so I never used paid ads
I did everything organic I was
spamming different websites I got
banned on Reddit so I did various
stuff right but I think the only
paid thing I did once was paying
some random influencer and it
brought zero money.
Smart investment.
Again, I could put that money in
Bitcoin.
never investment.
So, yeah, I mean.
I'm not sure, I guess with that
capital, your acquisition strategy
was way more open -ended than
mine.
Yeah, it was totally different
compared with your acquisition
strategy.
In the beginning, we don't invest
a lot of money in organic growth.
So basically, we try to grow
hiring a salespeople.
and running some ads.
But ads for us didn't work well.
And I think didn't work well
because we didn't have really good
definition of our ICP.
So basically the approach was more
like an abroad approach compared
with more...
Sorry to interrupt, Sorry to
interrupt, just to clarify, ICP
means your ideal customer profile.
profile.
Yeah.
Yeah, ideal customer profile.
Yeah, so we tried some ads.
It doesn't work for us, but I
think the main reason of why it
doesn't work was related to the
ICP definition.
And mainly our growth was driven
by salespeople.
So you paid salespeople, they went
selling, they catch some fish.
yeah and you then ate your okay i
see i mean what i did in the early
days so first thing i posted
there's like this community called
indie hackers it's like some i
don't know if it's still relevant
nowadays but it was like a place
where bootstrap founders or people
who are software developers and
they think they can do startups
they build their own startups and
they basically think they're
startup owners because they build
the software uh but they'd have no
business skill uh sorry i deviated
anyway post there I got only one
person to try it from Philippines.
He gave me some feedback and it
barely worked for my setup.
gave me my setup.
So basically my product sucked.
But I got that feedback.
I went to Reddit.
I got instant banned because, you
know.
It's promotion.
Yeah, it's like you can't promote
yourself.
I should have wrote like, oh,
here's an app which my little
sister made in the weekend, right?
And then it would be fine, right?
It's promotion.
And then I went on Facebook
groups.
um because i couldn't find like
back then a podcast community app
uh like you know community so i
went there i found several groups
i posted there and i got amazing
traction and basically i go like
so many comments so many
conversations i also might make my
first money back then so uh yeah
it's um so what's community driven
it's also might make uh yeah it's
what's community driven I mean,
it's hard to say if it's community
driven.
It's just like I went to a
community and asked.
I mean, I don't think there's
like, you know, there's no Reddit
or clean voice where people talk,
oh my God, look at this clean
voice trick.
Like, I don't think there's
something like that.
But for me, it's like I just ditch
it and some things worked.
And I don't know.
I mean, now I think I have a more
defined definition of a customer
acquisition now.
But yeah, and compared to you, I
already had an ICP in mind.
So customer profile in mind.
And I just went there and just
tried to find all more of those.
And basically, more or less, it
was organic, everything.
Later, it came more SEO and some
other stuff.
But, you know, those stuff take.
So organic growth is very slow.
And at Bootstrapper, I felt that.
So it was slow, but, you know.
There are a lot of things.
I think as a bootstrap, because
you have no money, you have to do
weird shit.
And some of your shit is very
effective because nobody's doing
it.
Yeah.
And it's a more sustainable way
compared with VC -backed startup
when you have to grow fast.
That's the single metric that it's
important, growing as fast as
possible at any price.
So the sustainable way, it's not
literally taken into consideration
at the beginning.
You have to capture the market as
fast as possible.
Were the VCs pushing you to do
that?
I mean, I know there's like
intrinsic, you know, like, hey,
we're not going to say it to you,
but you have to do this, right?
You have to become a billion
dollar company, etc. But did they
actually say it to you?
You know what?
But did they actually say it to
you?
You know what?
No, no, knowing that odds, but
basically that's the expectation
from every VC that invests in
every startup to become the next
billion dollar company.
So they did say it, did say it,
but in different words, or really,
did they say it like, bro, go to a
billion?
Indirectly.
Indirectly.
They said it in their corporate
speech.
Okay, fine.
So now coming about VCs.
Did VCs actually guide you well?
Like I would assume they have
experience of investing in
gazillions of startups and some of
them hope I guess became billion
dollar companies.
Did they give any good advice for
you?
Depending on the niche, depending
on the niche and their expertise.
The really, really good advice and
network that came from the VC,
it's related to other investors.
So intros to other investors, they
came at the table with other VC or
other people willing to invest.
So basically that saved me a lot
of... time in the first phase.
And secondly, they will help you
if you want to grow fast and
attract enterprise customers.
Usually the people from VC know
really, really well the enterprise
market because they came from that
market.
So it's, I guess, a bit helpful,
but yeah if you're targeting you
know big customers I guess they
have more experience but they
won't really like did they help
you in the early days somehow a
bit or because I guess the early
days it's not so relevant I guess
it's not so relevant and again
depends on the member from the VC
and their experience are few
members that are more close to
that my journey to that my not so
relevant and again depends on the
member from the VC and their
experience are few members that
are more close to that my journey
to that my stage of the company
and they understand better my way
of building and give me better
advice so at the end of the day
depends of you you will get a lot
of advice from vc for other people
for your friends for basically
anything has an opinion about how
to do things but nobody can better
understand your business as you
understand so you have to filter
the entire advice and apply to to
your business what do you think
and what do you feel will be
better for the future of your
company I see yeah I mean okay I
guess so I guess with some money
so I mean later on I guess okay
you try to grow your company but
when you're growing your company
you're gonna have to hire people
now you hire the salesperson I
guess you got your check right
okay good what's my shopping list
yeah hey that's okay wasted money
okay you go now what's on the
shopping list got your check my
shopping list yeah hey that's okay
wasted money okay you go now
what's on the shopping list
Salesman.
Kind of worked, I guess, right?
Kind of worked, I guess, right?
Yeah.
Okay, good.
Salesman was good.
What else was on the shopping
list?
ML engineers, marketing, people to
label our data.
So we hired an entire team.
And the hiring process for us,
expected from the salesman, we
hired just from recommendations.
Basically, every person that we
hired was a recommendation from
another.
person was it more like this is my
friend can you hire my friend or
was it a bit more better no no a
bit better okay it wasn't not that
kind of recommendation yeah it's
like hey bro let's build
everybody's like the same guy you
know yeah because the like if you
just bring like invite a friend a
friend you just have like i know
sausage fest basically yeah yeah
yeah we still have to build a
company yeah i see yeah okay i
mean for me it was like it more
like this is my friend can you
hire my friend or was it a bit was
it a bit more better no no a bit
better okay it wasn't not that
kind of recommendation okay it
it's like hey bro let's build
everybody's like the same guy you
know yeah because the like if you
just bring like invite a friend a
friend you just have like i know
sausage fest basically yeah yeah
yeah yeah yeah we still have to
build a company i see yeah okay i
mean for me it was like I didn't
have anyone.
I was doing the data labeling.
I was the cleaning lady.
I was, or cleaning guy in this
case, sorry.
I was the guy who was, I did some
data labeling for my algorithm.
So I did, I was labeling most of
the data in the early days.
I was building the code.
I was doing the marketing.
So I was wearing all those hats
somehow.
Not sure how I did it, but yeah.
And then eventually I think Clean
Voice made around, I know, like $1
,000, a bit less.
And I had basically someone
approached me on LinkedIn and gave
me some advice and like, hey,
look, I have no money.
This is like, I made a screenshot
from Paddle, which is my payment
provider.
This is the amount of money I
make.
I'm basically, look, I'll give you
half of it.
I have no clue how much it's worth
for you, right?
if you work one hour per per week
or you know if you work like half
an hour per week i don't know for
the whole month i don't care you
know i can send you like i know
this amount of money uh and you do
what you think it's worth that
money that's how i first and then
uh of course that increased as the
revenue increased i i pushed more
and more you have more like a
shift of stuff i don't know i can
send you like i know this amount
of money uh and you do what you
think it's worth that money that's
how i first and then uh of course
that increased as the revenue
increased i i pushed more and more
have more like a shift of stuff
What do you mean with chief of
staff here?
Doing things for you.
Basically all things that can...
Be delegated.
delegated.
Yeah, exactly.
I guess, yeah.
But this particular case was for
marketing because the workload was
somewhat predictable.
Yeah, workload was somewhat
predictable.
There was not a clear process,
but... you know, vibe process.
If there was a process which is
not quite defined, but you kind of
know what you're doing, I call
that vibe processing.
call that vibe processing.
So this word vibe processing, you
kind of know what you do, if you
understand what you do.
And we had like a repeatable
stuff, right?
And that could be easy delegated.
So there was like a fixed process.
I didn't be like, oh, here are the
20 SOPs and I can delegate them.
No, no, like, no, I'm horrible at
that stuff.
Now we have some SOPs, but still,
I still think it's just chaotic.
If you ask her, she's like, nah,
it's chaos here.
Even nowadays, I assume some...
There will be a day where it's
nicely organized, but I don't
think this is going to happen for
me.
I live in pure chaos.
Anyway, that's how I got my hire.
And basically, the more money I
had, I tried to hire someone.
Or at least, you know, like, okay,
good.
You know, do this one tiny thing,
you know, small, and then more
responsibility I gave to more
people as I went.
But yeah, I mean, I can still hire
more people, man, but there's no
budget for that.
Even now.
now.
It's a different approach.
Yeah.
But yeah, definitely not fast and
furious for sure.
Now, I guess with, you know, okay,
good.
You've got your team.
You're growing like crazy or you
hope you're growing like crazy.
I mean, what's your exit
expectation?
Like, I guess I'm not saying what
the VC expectation is.
Okay.
This is a very, okay.
You can say, you know, a know, the
politically correct answer.
This is what the VC are expecting.
We all know it.
We can Google it.
The chat will tell you.
My expectations.
Which is a billion dollar company.
Which is a billion dollar company.
I get it, right?
Billion dollar, gazillion dollar.
They have a big exit.
It's champagne on a yacht.
And then, yeah, whatever.
I don't know.
But something crazy like that.
What's risky your exit
expectation?
If you're willing to share, of
course.
Yeah, I'm willing to share.
My exit expectations are around...
tens of millions.
So it's more like a conservative
exit.
The VC expectation, of course,
it's over 100.
Gazillion dollars.
Gazillion dollars.
Yeah.
So yeah, I'm choosing the tens of
millions.
Humble man.
Just for context for our
listeners.
We are two Eastern European boys.
Sorry, we're Europe poor.
We're Europe poor.
Like I think expectation for
billions is not even for France
even, and even there is, you know,
where it's more common, I guess.
So we are Europe poor here for
context.
are So we have low expectations.
No, you want billions, we want
millions only.
Yeah.
So, okay.
I mean, for me, the exit, I see it
like this.
Ideally, a nice exit of several
millions, right?
Or just milk the cow, you know?
Yeah, it's another way, another
good way.
Maybe both, who knows?
Yeah, maybe both.
And for example, here in Eastern
Europe, if you made 10k per month,
you have a really good life.
So basically, if you build a
business, a sustainable business
that can produce you 10k per
month, it's really good.
both, who which again calls me
like okay you could invest in
bitcoin those 10 you know your
money another thing which i come
is like especially if you're a
tech person in eastern europe it's
like why the f would you do a
startup because the like the
eastern european dream i think the
eastern european dream of a like
eastern european developer like
technical like a software this
branch is that you work for us
company and you live in eastern
europe you get like a remote
contract right 100k at least 200k
even.
Heck, there are people getting
more than that.
But let's say, you know.
Minimum 100k.
Yeah, 120k.
Yeah, 120k.
So it runs up to 10k per month.
And you get the real business.
You get your 9 to 5 or 9 to 9,
whatever.
You know, maybe you slack your job
because it's remote.
So you do some coding.
Then the rest of the day you
chill.
Because let's be honest, the most
serious, like even the people who
work for American companies,
they're not non -stop online.
They don't work.
No developer works 8 hours.
work.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
No, definitely.
No, fuck no. I mean, maybe
sometime, right?
Like, you know, you get that
monster energy drink, two Coca
-Colas, you know, pop some
tobacco, right?
Yeah.
But today you can develop really,
really fast with vibe coding.
So...
Basically, that's the easy part,
the easy part, right?
Like everybody can do a shit,
yeah, but it's like marketing,
like that's the hard part, right?
You can vibe code.
Oh, I had the idea of Facebook.
Yeah, bro.
Why don't you build Facebook?
You know, why didn't you build
Instagram?
Why didn't you build TikTok?
Yeah, bro.
Yeah, me too.
look where are you yeah and today
being so easy to to build or wipe
code an application the real
differentiator comes from how to
market how to promote how people
knows about you how do you
actually learn that skill like i
mean assume both of us and today
being so easy to to build or wipe
code an application the real
differentiator comes from how to
market how to promote how people
knows about you do you actually
learn that skill like i mean
assume both of us we didn't have
that skill in the beginning maybe
even nowadays we don't have the
skill who knows we still don't
have we know the basics right yeah
um but like is there a way to
learn this except without doing a
startup like can you even learn
that no no i don't think it's a
another way another good way even
don't have know the basics right
yeah um but like is there a way to
learn this except without doing a
startup like can you even learn
that no no i don't think it's a
another way another good way
expecting to doing in your
company.
Of course, you can learn from
multiple people from the internet.
It's great people that can teach
you how to do marketing, how to
promote, how to be more visible
and growth.
But every people came with their
expertise and their expertise,
it's not 100 % applicable to your
startup, your niche.
So, yeah.
It's not another way than doing
yourself.
niche.
I mean, for the past 10 years, I'm
not sure how many books I read,
but I've read, like, if you go,
like, New York Times best business
books, I read most of them.
Like, you're like, oh,
recommendation on business books.
Most of them I read.
Or listen, depends on the book.
I don't know.
I think I have around 100 books
read.
Maybe 200 with audiobooks for the
past 10 years.
I was reading mainly business
books, nonfiction, and psychology,
basically that.
Same to me.
to Same to me.
From all those books, a only
handful were relevant for me with
my startup.
I think the most was just wasted
time.
It was, I don't know, it was
business masturbation.
I don't know how to call it, man.
It was really wasted time, I
think.
But it felt good, you know, it
felt good.
Wow, I learned, you know.
Yeah, but most of it was me.
Yeah, and probably most of the
principles from the books are not
any more applicable nowadays.
Or the market is changing in a
really fast way.
I remember reading, I don't know,
like Gary Vee book.
There was like on Jab Jab, I don't
know, Punch, I don't know, it was
something like that.
I mean, I think it was talking
about Omnichannel.
marketing, right?
So even though the book maybe
wasn't so relevant, still the
principles, a lot of principles
are applied nowadays.
So they're still, I think in older
books, business books are
applicable.
But the thing for me was not that
the ideas maybe were not good or
bad, or maybe couldn't be applied.
It could, for me as a bootstrap
founder, it was irrelevant.
It's like, why teach me about
management when I have like, you
know, we're a handful of people,
it's like, or whatever, right?
all kind of other stuff where
like, man, like, I don't know what
to do with this information.
I have no investors.
I don't have, you know, like a lot
of the stuff just like applies for
scale.
But if your scale is zero, then it
doesn't matter.
Right.
So actually there were some books,
right?
So for me, at least I remember
reading a book from Arvid Kahl.
I hope I didn't misspell on his
name.
I think it's the I had a podcast,
I think the Bootstrap founder or
something like that.
Anyway, he had a book and that
book, like some of the ideas I
could apply immediately.
Like I remember I read it and I
could apply it on the like, you
know, questions which I had, like
maybe not give me dance, but, you
know, accelerated the process to
find a solution.
But I think the most valuable book
in the early days for me was the
book called The Company of One.
And, you know, it was a book about
solopreneurship.
There are some other books, which
like one good idea here and there.
But like, you read so much, you
know, if you go to Google and read
the recommendations, like the
mainstream stuff, almost
everything was like, just like,
just I felt good about it, but
useless.
Yeah, yeah.
But for you, VC, I would assume,
did some of those books apply for
you?
Not really, not really, because
the main things still I learned
during the process and doing the
things by myself.
Of course, some books, some, I
don't know, examples speed up the
process because you don't have to
reinvent the well and try things
from the scratch.
You have a cold start.
But yeah.
basically how i i said uh it's
really really depends on your
business and your timing in the
market and your team and your
resources what about you yeah it's
about you man yeah yeah yeah yeah
yeah so uh yeah you you'll get a
lot of useful ideas tell me one
book just be precise one book can
you tell me at least one book you
can say it helped we can all say
all books helped you know but no
no no uh one book that uh helped
us was the um what about you yeah
it's about you man yeah yeah yeah
yeah so uh yeah you you'll get a
lot of useful ideas me one book
just be precise one book can you
tell me at least one book you can
say it helped can all can all say
all books helped you know but no
no uh one book that uh helped us
was the um um product let grow
that was and we starting to to do
product let grow i think half year
ago yeah that's a good book yeah
yeah i think i gave you that book
right yeah yeah that's a good book
yeah if anyone doing like a sales
business it's uh the essentials
yeah yeah it's uh it's uh
essentials that's a good book yeah
i think i think i gave you that
book right yeah yeah that's a good
book yeah if anyone doing like a
sales business it's uh the
essentials essentials yeah yeah
it's uh it's uh essentials that's
for sure yeah and like you go to
New York Times or like you know
business top business books now
you won't even find it immediately
but it's not so unpopular I think
it's kind of getting more popular
I think it's not so hard to find
that's what I'm trying to say yeah
it's not so hard to find and also
depends on what kind of business
are you doing if your business can
operate in a self -service way say
yeah it's not so hard to find and
also depends on what kind of
business are you doing if your
business can operate in a self
-service way you probably it's
applicable a product to let grow
strategy.
If your business doesn't operate
in a self -service way and it's
just enterprise or direct sales,
it's irrelevant for you.
So it's a wasted time.
I mean, there are books like The E
-Myth, something I forgot exactly,
but it's book on like treating
your business as a franchise, you
know, not because I know people
like.
to bake bread, but once you're in
the business of bake breading,
it's a totally different thing.
And you have to see yourself more
like, you know, see the process,
build a team, make it repeatable,
predictable, et cetera, right?
And I think not all books are bad,
but as you said, it's really
sometimes in the context.
So maybe those popular books,
maybe they apply for a lot of
founders, but not for us, at
least.
It was at least for SaaS founders
like us.
Yeah, maybe it's applicable for
another type of founders, another
type of company.
yeah it's just our experience
that's our experience yeah okay
well with all this knowledge and
we've talked about exit let's talk
about failure yeah yeah so what
does failure mean to you in the
context for your business um
except going bankrupt of course is
that the biggest failure no no no
no the failure for me it's um a
little bit different from um our
experience yeah all this knowledge
and we've talked about exit let's
talk about failure yeah does
failure mean to you in the context
for your business um except going
bankrupt of course is that the
biggest failure no no no the
failure for me it's um a little
bit different from um making
mistakes or facing setbacks.
In my view, failure, it's when I'm
doing something I don't love, when
I'm doing something I'm not 100 %
involved, when I'm doing something
I'm not putting my entire passion
and best effort.
So that represents for me failing.
Yeah, I also like to passionately
go bankrupt.
That's also true.
No, I get it.
I understand what you mean.
But for me, if I go bankrupt,
anyway, I'm poor.
I'm Euro poor.
It's not like from one to zero is
not a big distance.
So for me, at least it's like
whatever.
It's fine if I fail.
But the experience which I've
gained, I think for the
experience.
me it's made it worthwhile yeah
and the person that you become at
the end of this experience it's
really really valuable you mean
bold uh sad uh great hair it's uh
stressed stressed out right stage
two cancer right oh wow i'm very
excited for that one mate it's
perfect yeah it's all i dream my
entire life exactly it was born
for that man yeah yeah yeah so
yeah and the person that you
become at the end of this
experience it's really really
valuable mean bold uh sad uh great
hair it's uh stressed stressed out
right stage two cancer right oh
wow i'm very excited for that one
mate it's perfect perfect it's all
i dream my entire life it was born
for that man yeah yeah so yeah
Failure, it's more like what is
important for us.
like what is important for us.
Usually we think and saw failure
as a bad thing because probably we
want the other people to have a
good opinion about us.
Probably if we know nobody will
care about what we did, probably
will be okay to go bankrupt.
and start again I'm fine like if I
I'm like I think maybe what's
happened is that you fail so like
for your business you go through
so many things and you're like I
don't give a shit what people care
I don't give a shit about that I'm
just gonna do it bro like
something like that that's kind of
like your so basically you know
old man white hair exactly he's
you know the guy at the beach no
no you know what I like you know
the confidence or you know fine
like if I I'm like I think maybe
what's happened is that you fail
so like for your business you go
through so many things and you're
like I don't give a shit what
people care I don't give a shit
about that I'm just gonna do it
bro like something like that
that's kind of like your so
basically you know old man white
hair exactly he's you know the guy
at the beach no no you know what I
like you know the confidence or
you know an old man going to
sauna.
Butt naked, doesn't give a shit,
spread his cheeks like it's
nothing, right?
Like that's the confidence what I
want, you know?
That man, he has so much wisdom,
but just going like that, you
know?
When I go to sauna, I mean, it
depends where you go, right?
I went very often in Austria and
sauna and like there's like the
rule you have to go naked, right?
Because more hygienic.
Not sure if that's true, but
doesn't matter.
matter.
That's the rule, right?
And like, you know, I go with my,
I put my towel, I go inside, you
know, I open my towel and I don't
shave, you know, I'm not like, you
know, hiding or anything, you
know, like, look at me.
Here's...
This is me.
This is me, right?
You know, but I'm not like, oh,
here's little Johnny, you know,
I'm not like, you know, like this,
like, oh, look.
yeah look my man you know like
showing every particular angle
right i'm you know more discreet
like no the man you know those men
are like that that's like they go
don't give a shit it's like yeah
yeah yeah definitely okay i'm not
sorry maybe that was a bit
inappropriate but yeah okay i
think we talked enough i think if
we continue talking we're talking
in the wrong direction so yeah i
guess um quite quick to the first
question yeah yeah definitely i'm
not sorry maybe that was a bit
inappropriate but yeah okay i
think we talked enough i think if
we continue talking we're talking
in the wrong direction so yeah i
guess um quite quick to the first
question Do you regret taking the
check?
No. Definitely no. Because five
years ago, there is not another
way to build what we build other
than taking that check.
This is Adrian.
This is Adrian.
And see you next time.
On the next episode.
time.
On the next