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THE podcast for navigating all things midlife with honesty, humor, and heart
Heidi (00:13)
Hey there. I'm just popping in here real quick to say thank you so much for listening and being a part of the Evolving Together podcast. If you would do us a huge favor and follow us wherever you listen or watch and also leave a five-star review, that would be amazing. We would just be over the moon. And
so grateful because that's a sign to us that we are doing the right thing and bringing you the content that you want to hear on the podcasts. Once again, thank you for being here.
Heidi (00:43)
Welcome to the Evolving Together podcast, where we seek to navigate all the things happening in midlife with honesty, humor, and heart. I am your host, Heidi Sexton. To start off, I have a few questions for you listeners. Do you feel anxious and on edge most of the time? Can you not relax even when you're in what should be a calm and relaxing space?
Have you worked on your trauma from life events but feel like there is a missing piece to your healing? If you answered yes to any or all of the above, you may find solutions in what we're talking about today. Katie Mason is joining us and she is going to walk us through biofeedback, a valuable tool in mental health care. Katie is a licensed professional counselor and clinical supervisor and founder of Sangkal Holistic Recovery in Gulfport, Mississippi.
She's also a level two Reiki practitioner, board certified holistic health practitioner, and trauma-informed yoga teacher. She holds specialization certifications in general biofeedback and mind-body medicine. Whew, that's a lot. I love it. Welcome, Katie. I got through all that. I was like, wow, that's a lot. That's a lot, but it's such good stuff. I didn't want to leave any of it out. I probably by accident may have, but okay, good.
Katie Mason (01:53)
It's a mouthful. Thanks for having me. You did.
You didn't, you got it all.
That's me in a nutshell.
Heidi (02:07)
Well just
great. Well just the name of your business, ⁓ Sanghal Holistic Recovery makes me smile. ⁓ Sanghal means does that mean s supportive community?
Katie Mason (02:17)
Yeah, so
it's actually kind of a word that I made up. but it's basically we combine the word sangha, right, which is a community. ⁓ and then I put the the all at the end, so a sangha for all people in recovery in whatever capacity we want to look at that in. Yeah.
Heidi (02:22)
I love that.
I love that. And of course I
love anything holistic, especially when dealing with healthcare. And ⁓ maybe you could just explain to our listeners what holistic means 'cause I think sometimes the teacher in me always wants to define vocabulary. And I wanna make sure that everybody really understands what we're talking about before we just kinda dive in and and lose people.
Katie Mason (02:49)
Ha ha ha
Yeah,
yeah, of course. So really, you know, the general premise behind I think holistic healing, really in a nutshell, is all about the mind-body connection. It's about looking at the big picture about what's actually going on. So when we're talking about mental health, we also have to kind of play into what's going on in the body, what's going on with your health, how are you taking care of yourself? ⁓
We also bridge the spirit into that as well. So the mind, body, spirit connection. So in holistic medicine, we take a look at the big picture.
Heidi (03:26)
I love that because I mean I it drives me crazy when people just go to the a general practitioner for high blood pressure and cholesterol and they you know, it's like they walk out with a list of things, okay, eat more of this, don't eat that, you know, exercise more, which no one's gonna do any of those things because they're not really given the tools to i ⁓ implement them and then they have some new prescriptions and it's like it's just missing that like you said, that that mind body spirit connection because it's we're not just, you know
Katie Mason (03:42)
Right.
Exactly.
Heidi (03:55)
One thing. We're connected. Everything's connected. So so you have incorporated something called biofeedback into your practice. And I would love to get into that more because I think I do my own biofeedback. But I would love for you to actually explain what it is.
Katie Mason (03:59)
Exactly.
Yes.
Sure. Yes, absolutely.
And I think, you know, in order to I guess kind of explain how I got into this, we have to go back into, I guess, my why as to ultimately what brought me to this in the first place. so, you know, naturally I've been a talk therapist for about 15 years. my practice has evolved.
time and time again into different demographics and different, you know, little segues here and there. And I feel like my my business has really evolved over the years based on what I am going through. ⁓ I feel like in a way that kind of I feel like makes me a better practitioner when I'm in alignment with what I'm doing.
Heidi (04:55)
yeah.
Katie Mason (04:57)
And then of course what I'm giving to my clients in the mental health field. so I guess we f flash back to the pandemic, right? When everything went virtual, everything shut down. ⁓
That I think was a collective experience for everybody. You know, we a kind of a collective trauma, if you will, that we have all kind of experienced, and now we're coming out of it as different people. I see that a lot with my clients. I see it in myself, I see it in my family. This idea that I think when that happened, we were challenged to go inward. We were challenged to
Really take an honest evaluation of who we are and what defines us and what we believe in and and all of the things, all of those foundational components. And it I think it really kind of shook a lot of people's sense of self during that time. Yes.
Heidi (05:45)
a hundred percent. Yes. Because you know, if
you had a job you lost your identity as that person within that job and then you yeah, there were so many shifts. Yeah.
Katie Mason (05:54)
Exactly, exactly. You know,
and during the time, you know, I don't think we we really kind of consciously recognized that we were going through that. And like I said, I think kind of here we are six years later, which is absolutely wild that it's been that long. ⁓ you know, six years later, I think people are kind of recognizing like that really did shape me on a foundational level. Like that whole experience changed us. And ⁓ so for me personally, ⁓ I think that time naturally
Heidi (06:07)
I know, I know.
Katie Mason (06:24)
We were not prepared for that as mental health professionals. Nobody knew what we were doing. We at that point, telehealth was not really a thing. It was not something that was widely practiced. So we were kind of expected to jump into this like new realm of providing counseling and treating our patients from the comfort of their own home or from their car or wherever they were at the time. And and it was great. You know, it opened up accessibility to those resources. But for me personally, and I'm
Not speaking for all mental health professionals here, but I think probably a lot of us really experienced burnout for the first time. this sense of are we doing enough to help our clients? We're not face to face with them anymore. We're not
Reading their body language and feeling their energy, and we're not sharing space. And I think so much of counseling, right, is sharing space, holding space for people. and so the whole dynamic changed. We honestly, I feel like we're just kind of flying by the seat of our pants, winging it, hoping for the best. and so I know for me personally, my anxiety spiked, my depression spiked, my sense of.
I don't even really have it in me to show up today, but I'm gonna have to put on this smile and show up for my clients and play the role, you know, and that after a while did take a big toll. So with that, you know, as a therapist, I often talk to people actually all day long about the things that they should do, the things that are gonna help you feel better, right? The all of the activities, all of the coping skills.
Heidi (07:59)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Mason (08:06)
And so for me, I know those things, right? But I often tell people like we're our own worst enemies. We don't actually follow our own advice. And so I was telling people, you know, here's what you can do to cope during this time. But when it came to me personally, nothing was working. I was not feeling better. I was wound up all the time. I was sometimes going into sessions like coming off the tail end of a panic attack, ⁓ feeling sensations of yeah, feeling sensations of vertigo and you know.
Heidi (08:30)
Oof, that wow.
Katie Mason (08:36)
know, stomach discomfort and and tension and headaches like and I'm you know putting on this mask sitting in front of a client pretending like I'm okay when really I was not okay. And I think a lot of times we don't we as therapists don't
talk about that enough, I guess. The idea that like at underneath it all we're still human and we're still going through our things. And what do you do on a day when you just don't have the capacity for it, but you still have to show up and hold space. yes
Heidi (08:56)
Yes. Right.
boy, that sounds like teaching. Teachers teachers have to show
up. I had a principal tell me one time, it doesn't matter what's going on, whether you have a headache, you don't feel good, whatever, whatever, you still have to show up and pretend like that's not happening. It's like, wow. It's hard. Yes. Yes, yes.
Katie Mason (09:17)
Exactly. Exactly. Nobody knows. And we learn very well how to mask. ⁓
and I think most of us as human beings learn how to mask. It's just, it's the way that we survive in this world. we've all gotten very good at playing the role of who we're supposed to be, whether that be counselor or teacher or professional or mother, child, whatever it may be. We we all wear the masks and we all do it pretty well.
Heidi (09:26)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Mm.
Katie Mason (09:44)
So, you know, during that time I'm dealing with this anxiety, I am
Knowing how to cope with it. I'm telling people all day long how you should cope with anxiety and I'm not feeling better. During this time, my wife and I had moved to Orlando. So we were in Florida for about four years, during the middle of the pandemic, really. ⁓ and in Orlando, there were a lot of resources and a lot of niche practices around. It's a lot different than the Mississippi Gulf Coast, where we don't have as many resources.
Heidi (10:14)
Right.
Katie Mason (10:18)
So
lots of therapists in central Florida were practicing just, you know, clinical hypnosis and you know combinations of acupuncture and massage and like all of these holistic mind-body-spirit things. And of course, that's my cup of tea. I was like, I'm gonna do all the things, I'm gonna try all the things, I'm just really gonna dive in and be the client for once and not be the professional for once. so kind of embodying that mindset.
Ultimately, I was able to kind of dip my toes into a lot of different like alternative practices and try them out. but the one that spoke to me the most was neurofeedback. So it's a form of biofeedback. ⁓ but basically it's about brainwave activity. So I tried a lot of different things, wasn't feeling any better, and so I was like, I gotta do something. And so I found a clinic. It was I can't remember.
Exactly what it was called, the Neurogenesis Center of Central Florida. Highly recommended them. They were amazing, amazing practitioners.
But I did a treatment of neurofeedback, which is basically where you play video games with your brain. It's the best way I can describe this. So you go in, they put electrodes on your head in different spots. This is after you do a big QEEG scan where they measure your brainwave activity. They're able to determine, you know, what
Heidi (11:29)
Hm, okay.
Katie Mason (11:45)
are kind of maybe hyperactive, which ones are underperforming. That can really gauge, you know, if you're dealing with like clinical anxiety or clinical depression or bipolar disorder, you know, anything like that that's gonna be more centralized to brainwave activity. Neurofeed, yeah, go ahead.
Heidi (11:59)
I I have a quick question. It does that have to do with
l like dopamine and serotonin levels? Is that does that come into play and the brainwave scan or is that not so much?
Katie Mason (12:10)
You know, honestly, I don't know the answer to that question because like I said, you know, I primarily practice biofeedback. ⁓ neurofeedback's a little bit different, but it does, it measures, you know, the alpha, the beta, the the gamma, all of those waves in your in your brain. and you come out with this really comprehensive scan and this picture of what's happening. ⁓ and so from there they they uniquely tailor your treatment plan to whatever waveforms you're trying to either
Heidi (12:12)
Okay, I was just curious.
Yeah.
Okay.
Fascinating.
Katie Mason (12:37)
you know, manipulate to perform better, to slow down, whatever it may be. And so you go in for a course of, I think, 30 sessions. They're like 30 minutes each. You go twice a week for 30 sessions. They hook you up to little little stickies on your head, and you sit in front of a TV and you practice relaxation techniques. And basically the more relaxed you are in the body, the game or the visual feedback will play. And then of course if you get distracted, if your thought problem
Heidi (12:47)
wow.
Katie Mason (13:07)
Processes begin to shift, if you start ruminating into your anxiety loops, whatever it may be, the screen dims. So the idea is that it kind of it's like operant conditioning, right? Where it's like if you see a positive feedback happening, you're gonna be more likely to repeat the pattern. So it's it's a very, I guess, kind of subconscious training program that happens. Your body kind of learns how to adapt and adjust so you get the positive feedback on the screen.
Heidi (13:14)
Wow, okay, interesting. Yeah.
Interesting.
Katie Mason (13:36)
And over the course of the treatment, they, you know, progressively bump up the sensitivity of it and they make it a little bit more challenging. And so by the end of your treatment, you essentially have rewired the way that like these neural pathways are working in your mind. It's very cool. Yes. So kind of going back into biofeedback. Like I said, neurofeedback is another form of biofeedback. Biofeedback is exactly the same, but it's more about body sensations. So we're talking controlling your breathing patterns.
Heart rate, heart rate variability, skin temperature, sweat gland activity, muscle tension. So doing all sorts of different things that basically when you feel the physiological sensations of stress and anxiety, biofeedback helps you kind of rewire and learn how to relax.
Heidi (14:28)
Okay. Yeah. like I said, I do my own biofeedback and it's not really that, but I do tune into the messages that my body's telling me, if there's something unusual happening, I'm like, Did I eat something? Did I not drink enough water? Did I you know, why why do I I can feel my blood pressure go up? And I know people say, you you know, I've heard that you can't tell when you have high blood pressure. I can feel it. I can feel it in my
Katie Mason (14:32)
Yeah.
Right.
You can feel it. Yeah.
Heidi (14:49)
my head, but you know, so it's like I'm always analyzing everything. I guess that's a very primitive form of biofeedback, but but I think it's valuable to to tap in, especially if you aren't really in tune with what's going on with your body and
Katie Mason (14:55)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely, absolutely yes.
Right.
And that kind of circling back, you know, full circle to, you know, my my history with it, to what I see in my clients, is exactly what you just said. Most of us do not have a very strong mind-body connection. We're just conditioned to kind of be on autopilot all the time, going and doing and not paying attention to the subtle headache or the the subtle sensation of your heart beating a little bit faster or how you may be breathing from your chest and not from your belly. These are all very
⁓ automatic things, right? Breathing, heart rate, all of that, that we aren't actively thinking about. And the longer that you live in kind of a chronic baseline state of stress, that becomes your norm. That becomes what you're used to doing. And so the idea, I see it in people all the time. I'm like, so tell me what you're feeling in your body. And they're like, I don't know.
Heidi (15:46)
Right.
yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Katie Mason (16:04)
And and it can be
really hard to even even tune into what subtle sensations they might be having until you actually guide them through, okay, are you clenching your jaw? Do you are your shoulders up by your ears? You know, what can you do to feel a little bit differently in the body? And then they're kind of like, wow, I had no idea that I was holding that tension.
Heidi (16:23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was in
fight or flight for most of my life and didn't even know it. And, you know, just based on my childhood and then moving to New York City and my first marriage, I had no idea that I was in fight or flight. ⁓ in fact, I think I learned it through a hair, like a hair mineral test or something. And it was like your cortisol levels are, you know, it's just crazy how I discovered it. And I'm like, what? I'm not in fighter am I?
Katie Mason (16:49)
Ha ha ha.
Heidi (16:53)
But it was so normal that I that's how I functioned. I did not know what what it meant to be calm. I could I could do deep breathing and and that was great, but it was my norm. So the uncomfortable norm, that's all I knew, you know? And that's and so yeah. I and I see it in a lot of a lot of people that I know. It's that constant motion.
Katie Mason (17:10)
Exactly.
Heidi (17:18)
or burnout or the nervous system is just frazzled and I I really feel that in those situations having that intervention of, okay, we're gonna break it down here. We're gonna really like figure out what's what's happening in your body so you can become more aware so that you can step back and and f you know, figure it out. So exactly ⁓ you wear like things on your head, your heart, what it what is exactly what does it look like?
Katie Mason (17:41)
Sure. Yes. Okay,
so you're absolutely right. Well, you when a when a client comes in for a biofeedback session. So generally during the first session, I hook them up to all of the sensors. So they wear a belt around their abdomen, so a respiration belt that monitors their breathing patterns. and it's basically just you you use the sensors on the right hand. There's they wrap around the fingers, so you have a
Blood pulse monitor, it measures your heart rate variability, your heart rate, your resting heart rate. there's a skin conductance sensor that measures your sweat gland activity. And then there's a thermometer. So that's it. It's very simple, but it it almost kind of looks like, you know, how when somebody's hooked up to a lie detector. Yeah. Uh-huh. ⁓
Heidi (18:25)
Right. That's actually what I was envisioning. I was like, hmm,
doesn't hurt. What what does it yeah?
Katie Mason (18:32)
You're very relaxed, but you kind of look like you're hooked up to a lie detector. And realistically, a lie detector is a biofeedback device. That's exactly what they're measuring. ⁓ but it's like I said, we're doing this in more of a therapeutic environment. You're in a nice cozy recliner in a dimly lit room with essential oils, and it's a it's a whole vibe, right? ⁓ but it can be kind of intimidating for people, right? Because they're they're finally able to see on the screen in front of them what their heart rate is and are they
Heidi (18:39)
⁓ good point, yeah.
Katie Mason (19:01)
breathing rapidly? Are they breathing shallow? what's going on with their sweat gland activity? And these sensors are incredibly sensitive, so they pick up very micro changes that are happening in the nervous system in real time. Yes.
Heidi (19:15)
Ooh, I love this. I think I might need to come
in for a session. ⁓
Katie Mason (19:17)
It's super fun. It's very dorky.
And I it for anybody who likes the idea of kind of the the science component of like the nervous system and mental health and all of that, biofeedback is a really great tool because it gives you a visual of, this is my nervous system in real time. You're able to see it. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Heidi (19:35)
Right. And it's been researched too. Yeah. Yeah.
I love that. I think you and I are both kinda nerdy like that. I I I always ask my I always ask my guests to give me you know, three words to describe themselves and a lot of times I forget to even mention it and you gave me ⁓ curious, evolving and nerdy and I was like, wait, that's me. Yeah. ⁓
Katie Mason (19:41)
Ha ha ha ha.
Yeah. Just embrace it, right? Embrace the weird.
Heidi (19:58)
Yeah. And I actually put
for you curious, compassionate and open. And so ⁓ but yeah, I like the I like the nerdy too. I thought that was really good. ⁓ I could totally geek out on all that stuff 'cause, you know. ⁓ so how many sessions I I know it's everyone's different, but how many sessions before someone starts to see results?
Katie Mason (20:02)
Mm.
Yeah. yeah.
You're absolutely right. Everybody is different. So depending on your specific needs and goals, ⁓ it can take anywhere between eight to twelve sessions. I have had clients who have come in and sat in my chair for two sessions and they're able to really feel a huge difference just in their day-to-day life because they've now kind of bridged that gap of awareness.
Even just by sitting and breathing for 10 or 15 minutes, they realize, I'm not doing this right. Here's how I should be breathing. And then they actually start to feel it.
in everyday activities when they're sitting at their desk at work or when they're driving in their car, they start to notice. ⁓ so I have had clients who have had, you know, very quick success with it. when we're diving more into kind of this idea of like rewiring the nervous system, right? We generally, you know, it's gonna take a few sessions to reestablish a healthier baseline. So like I said, normally between eight to twelve sessions, depending on the person.
Heidi (21:01)
That makes sense.
Katie Mason (21:23)
And then I also have people who could just come in for tune-ups. The idea of I've been very frazzled. I just kind of need to sit and breathe and and kind of regroup. Because that feeling goes with you through the end of the day. That being a being able to sit and pause and relax and kind of connect with the body, you take that with you.
Heidi (21:43)
Mm-hmm.
I was wondering if that was something that you would revisit, you know, kind of a tune-up like you said. You know, it's like we know what we have to do. We don't know we knowing is not doing. And so I would imagine that y yeah, it would make sense that you would need tune-ups every now and then. It's just like, you know, we get off the rails at the holidays. It's like, it doesn't matter that there's, you know, a pound of sugar in that fudge. I'm gonna eat it anyway. And then, you know, come January you're like, what was I thinking? You know, it's like I'm
Katie Mason (21:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Right.
We have to revisit our
decisions.
Heidi (22:09)
Right. It's like I knew better
and I just didn't do better, you know. So okay. And can children use this or could it be used on children and teenagers?
Katie Mason (22:14)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. There's actually a lot of evidence with kids, school age kids, who have trouble focusing, who have trouble with ADHD, ⁓ impulse control, mood swings, even like academic like test performance anxiety, things like that. Biofeedback is a phenomenal tool for younger kids. ⁓ Especially because, like I said, we make it into a game. The software that I use, it's got lots of different visuals that you can choose from, but it
Heidi (22:33)
Mm.
I bet.
Katie Mason (22:47)
Also has games. So you can actually play with a video game controller, and the more relaxed you are in the body, you actually get to play the game. it's so it's very tangible for kids. So they essentially get to come in, sit down, learn to breathe, and stay relaxed while they're executing something on the screen.
Heidi (22:59)
Mm.
Wouldn't that be amazing if they
just incorporated that into like all pediatric visits? I mean, it's like how many kids could get off medication and adults for anxiety and ADHD and all that. It's just don't get me started on all that, but I know, I know. The stuff I saw as a teacher, I was just like, Wow, if you actually mm ate differently and
Katie Mason (23:13)
You would think, yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. Right. Right. That that's a whole other conversation. Yeah.
Heidi (23:34)
Got your kid to bed on time and ⁓ anyway, all the stuff. this honestly seems like it would really be ideal for anyone that's had any kind of trauma. I mean, ⁓ counseling is great, but I I love the idea of tapping into the body because something that I I well, I used to think that trauma was just if you, you know, got injured in a car accident or
Katie Mason (23:42)
Yes.
Heidi (23:55)
served in the military in the war time or physical or mental abuse. But I learned later, so there's like micro traumas and macro traumas. It's like so everybody has trauma and how we deal with it is so unique. and having that extra tool to be able to, you know, to really heal you it's essentially healing yourself with that tool. And I I love that because nobody wants to be stuck on medication if they don't need it. And, you know
Katie Mason (24:18)
Exactly. Yeah.
Heidi (24:25)
There's only so much we can talk about.
Katie Mason (24:27)
Absolutely. Yeah, you're you're absolutely
right. You know, and the the interesting thing I think about trauma, right, and and I think this goes for for any size or shape or form of trauma that somebody deals with, is it gets directly stored in the body.
The body registers the experience and it holds on to the experience. So I have worked with people, and I know I've experienced it myself, where I'll be fine, and then boom, something happens, and your body immediately takes you back to this place in time or the situation that you remember. And a lot of times we feel it more in.
your stomach or you get a headache or you feel the the heart palpitations or you feel tension or pain in a certain area of the body. And that's because the body remembers, right? And so biofeedback absolutely ⁓ can be a great tool for individuals who deal with those physiological responses associated with trauma because it helps you reclaim that sense of autonomy over your body.
Heidi (25:16)
Yeah.
Katie Mason (25:32)
It helps you say, you know what, I have control at least over what's happening in my physiology, in in my nervous system. I can do something about that. And trauma, right? It it's where somebody or something takes that sense of autonomy from you. So biofeedback helps you re-reclaim that.
Heidi (25:49)
Right. It's a great way to reclaim it. Yeah,
I love that. That's really that's so important. That's I mean, gosh, I'm like ⁓ thinking of all these people. I'm like, that'd be really good for them. That's great.
Katie Mason (26:00)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Heidi (26:04)
So thank you, Katie. This has been a super informative
episode here and great conversation. I love I love the technology behind it. I love the mind body union of it and spirit as well. if you want to get in touch with Katie, she's no longer on social media. Is that correct? Okay. She's not on social media, so don't go looking for her there. You can she's done what everybody says they're going to do. Get off social media.
Katie Mason (26:22)
That is correct. Right. You can't find me there.
It's it's
good for my nervous system, so
Heidi (26:35)
Yes, yes. I understand
that completely. but you can find her on her website. That's Katie Rmason L P C dot com. And I will have that in the show notes for sure.
⁓ Katie and I are going to continue our conversation in a bonus episode as we pivot more in depth and on a little bit more intimate level.
Katie has graciously agreed to share more on her personal experiences that have really helped her become a more compassionate therapist. ⁓ including detaching from the Southern Baptist Church, sobriety, divorce,
coming out as an adult, marrying her wife, and finding peace and living authentically from a place that is true for her. So I hope you tune into that. Thank you, Katie. So much. I appreciate you. Thank you.
Katie Mason (27:21)
Thank you.