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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] SKOT: You must be some kind of therapist.[00:00:05]
[00:00:07] Stephanie: For this week's episode, I am borrowing [00:00:10] a conversation I had with Denison Joyce on his show through the Looking [00:00:15] Glass, originally on WIOX radio. Denison [00:00:20] interviewed me about my program for parents, ROGD repair and the one-on-one work I do. He asked [00:00:25] great questions and was a wonderful host. This conversation aired almost a year [00:00:30] ago, and I've kept my copy of it on the back burner to share again on my [00:00:35] podcast someday, and I'm bringing it to you today because we had a spot to [00:00:40] fill.
[00:00:40] Stephanie: So hope you enjoy my conversation with Dennis and Joyce, in which I share [00:00:45] about my work.
[00:00:46] Dennison: You're working with ROGD Repair. [00:00:50] Um, maybe you can explain what that is and what the trifecta of [00:00:55] social, uh, contagion is. That it's really hitting our use and certainly, I, I [00:01:00] saw that in the DSM five 13 or 14 out of a hundred [00:01:05] thousand children.
[00:01:05] Dennison: I think that was written in 2013. Uh, we're we're [00:01:10] considered to be trans and now it's like, I think in Massachusetts 500. [00:01:15] Out of a hundred thousand. So huge increase. And [00:01:20] um, when these sort of epidemics happen in our health world, [00:01:25] usually invokes an investigation. And it doesn't seem like there's an investigation now.
[00:01:28] Dennison: It just seems like [00:01:30] we know the problem, fast track, gender affirming care. So maybe you can talk [00:01:35] about your work and encapsulate these factors for us.
[00:01:39] Stephanie: [00:01:40] Oh, sure. Well, thank you for asking. And uh, you mentioned that the DSM five was [00:01:45] released in 2013, and that's also the year that I [00:01:50] graduated from my Master's in counseling program.
[00:01:52] Stephanie: So I have had [00:01:55] the. Bizarre privilege of, uh, growing my career as a [00:02:00] therapist during that sort of decade of exponential growth in the [00:02:05] number of young people identifying as trans, non-binary, or some other made [00:02:10] up so-called gender identity. And I was one of these young progressive [00:02:15] therapists that was taught to affirm those identities.
[00:02:18] Stephanie: And as a result, [00:02:20] I got to witness up close and personal. So many of the [00:02:25] underlying issues that now we talk about at the gender critical community, [00:02:30] the autism, the endocrine disorders, like polycystic ovarian syndrome, the [00:02:35] history of sexual trauma and exposure to pornography, online grooming, and [00:02:40] all of these issues and.
[00:02:44] Stephanie: It wasn't until [00:02:45] I learned about Detransition for the first time, which wasn't until 2000, [00:02:50] 23 years after I was taught the gender affirming model, that I [00:02:55] really gave myself the freedom to question all of this. And so fast forward now, it's [00:03:00] 2025, and as you said, I this program called ROGD Repair, and [00:03:05] this is.
[00:03:06] Stephanie: Basically the result of having spent the last five years [00:03:10] turning my career on its head to figure out what I, with my [00:03:15] particular background and skills can do to help with this issue because it's harming people. [00:03:20] I, I was so disturbed when I understood the level of harm, [00:03:25] real lasting physical harm, as well as psychological being perpetuated by [00:03:30] my own professional community.
[00:03:31] Stephanie: Um. A wise [00:03:35] person in the gender critical critical community who reached out to me early in my sort of [00:03:40] whistle blowing phase, gave me the advice to focus [00:03:45] essentially on what only I can do. That was how she'd sort of lived her life. Like what can only I [00:03:50] bring to the table? Um, so part of that, as you mentioned, is the [00:03:55] model of the trifecta of social contagion.
[00:03:58] Stephanie: This idea that [00:04:00] gender identity ideology doesn't. Operate in isolation, but in a perfect [00:04:05] storm, along with woke beliefs about social justice and [00:04:10] cluster B personality traits. Now, some people like to misinterpret this to say that I am [00:04:15] diagnosing everyone under the sun who identifies as trans with a cluster B personality disorder.
[00:04:18] Stephanie: No, that's not what I'm doing. [00:04:20]
[00:04:20] Dennison: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:20] Stephanie: Um, but I am saying that even. [00:04:25] Youths with sweet dispositions prior to all this. Once they fall prey to the [00:04:30] social contagion, begin developing some of these personality traits because they go hand in hand [00:04:35] the narcissism and entitlement, the black and white thinking, the histrionic attitude towards [00:04:40] emotions.
[00:04:40] Stephanie: The idea that you can use threats of suicide to manipulate people into getting what you want, the [00:04:45] emotional instability, the lack of perspective taking, um, all of [00:04:50] that. And more. Those are the personality traits that we [00:04:55] typically considered pathological in psychology until very, very recently. And [00:05:00] those traits are being promulgated through social media and through what is being upheld [00:05:05] now as a good, noble, correct, and righteous way to live.
[00:05:08] Stephanie: So it's the cluster be [00:05:10] personality traits, enabling. The incredibly rigid and [00:05:15] radical ideology about social justice and all of this works together with gender identity, [00:05:20] ideology, and together that perfect storm or that trifecta. I [00:05:25] also like to think of it sort of like a mind virus that's been perfectly engineered to [00:05:30] exploit the unique vulnerabilities of these young people.
[00:05:34] Stephanie: [00:05:35] So their grandiosity, their insecurity, their rigidity. They're [00:05:40] insecurities. Um, and so, and that's where it gets in. So [00:05:45] then where does the name ROGD repair come from? Well, it comes from [00:05:50] looking at how you as a parent can plug those holes in your family system because [00:05:55] ultimately you can't change your child.
[00:05:57] Stephanie: Even if you have the benefit of [00:06:00] time on your hands, even if your child is a minor, and let's say you live in a [00:06:05] state that has increasingly good protections for minors, that's great, that's [00:06:10] wonderful, but you cannot rely on the law or any system to protect you [00:06:15] because your kid will be 18 one. Hmm. And you know what?
[00:06:19] Stephanie: Even if there's [00:06:20] better laws in your estate for people over 18, they can move. You know, [00:06:25] ultimately my battle is not the legal battle. I'm grateful there are people fighting that fight. It's not the [00:06:30] fight that I was just designed to fight. So until the people who are busy [00:06:35] fighting, the legal battles win, the rest of us have to figure out what we can [00:06:40] do.
[00:06:41] Stephanie: When it comes to the things we can control, and that's, that's how we're communicating, [00:06:45] that's how we're understanding ourselves and other people's psychology and relationships. So [00:06:50] my program essentially teaches people to plug the holes that you can plug in your [00:06:55] family system. If this is a mind virus that's perfectly engineered to get in through the cracks [00:07:00] that were caused by something like a divorce
[00:07:04] Dennison: mm-hmm.
[00:07:04] Stephanie: In your [00:07:05] family. Or a, a trauma that happened to your child or a sibling [00:07:10] dynamic, you know, whatever those areas are, that's what you can control. That's what you can [00:07:15] affect. It also, yeah, it's about working on yourself. It's about understanding [00:07:20] adolescent psychology as well, and understanding the psychology of the trans cult, if you don't mind my [00:07:25] saying that.
[00:07:25] Stephanie: So that you can approach things in a way that is not likely to backfire. And [00:07:30] so the first stage of my work with a lot of families is just the, uh, [00:07:35] you know, you know, the disaster remediation phase of, [00:07:40] you know, inventorying everything that. You know, they would've done differently. Hindsight [00:07:45] being 2020, I teach people not to make those common mistakes.
[00:07:48] Stephanie: I teach people how to clean up [00:07:50] the mistakes they've already made, and again, how to affect the things that are truly within their power to affect. [00:07:55]
[00:07:55] Dennison: Now, in your trifecta, you have cluster B personalities, and you mentioned some of the traits, the [00:08:00] insecurity, loneliness. Um, can you explain a few more of those traits that generally are there, [00:08:05] but not always?
[00:08:05] Dennison: Of course.
[00:08:07] Stephanie: Sure. So when we talk about cluster B personality [00:08:10] traits, um, the disorders, the cluster B personality disorders are [00:08:15] narcissistic, antisocial, histrionic, and borderline. Um, so [00:08:20] some of those terms are familiar to most people. We all know narcissism, it's mm-hmm. Pretty big in pop [00:08:25] psychology. Um, borderline personality disorder is also something that a lot of people are [00:08:30] talking about.
[00:08:31] Stephanie: Histrionic maybe doesn't get mentioned quite as much in the pop psychology. [00:08:35] I think there's a reason for that, which is that a lot of social media behavior in the very same channels that [00:08:40] love to grab onto pop psychology concepts, a lot of the behavior in those [00:08:45] channels is histrionic. So these grandiose, superficial displays of [00:08:50] emotion and attention seeking and overly sexualized, overly intimate behavior [00:08:55] that's, you know, part of the pattern we associate with histrionic [00:09:00] personality disorder.
[00:09:00] Stephanie: If antisocial has to do with essentially [00:09:05] getting one's thrills out of, um, lying, cheating, and stealing now. It's to [00:09:10] diagnose a personality disorder. That's not what we're doing here. Right. It takes a lot for someone [00:09:15] who's been a, appointed the mental health professional in on, in charge of a certain [00:09:20] situation to diagnose a personality disorder because there has to be a pervasive [00:09:25] pattern mm-hmm.
[00:09:25] Stephanie: Of, uh, interpersonal behavior that's extremely problematic to reach that level. But what [00:09:30] I'm doing here is I'm saying, Hey, the traits of these disorders are part of the trifecta of social [00:09:35] contagion.
[00:09:36] Dennison: Okay.
[00:09:36] Stephanie: But with narcissism we look at the entitlement factor. For [00:09:40] instance, with borderline personality disorder, we're looking at a lack of a sense of self and emptiness [00:09:45] and instability in relationships.
[00:09:46] Stephanie: And you know, whenever we start explaining these traits. [00:09:50] Anyone who has experience dealing with someone who's in the trans cult can look around and see how those traits are [00:09:55] manifesting here.
[00:09:55] Dennison: Gotcha. Now also there's the social justice narrative is, [00:10:00] uh, part of the trifecta. You see that as more, um, uh. [00:10:05] Sort of the advocacy from above.
[00:10:09] Dennison: Is that what it [00:10:10] is? That these people have not been recognized in the past and thank God we're [00:10:15] shining a light on this, this condition that has people have had to suppress for so long [00:10:20] that you're, is that what it is? You're assigned a, uh, uh, a gender at birth, [00:10:25] but it might not be your real. Gender, is that the social you're
[00:10:28] Stephanie: getting at the [00:10:30] narrative component of things.
[00:10:31] Stephanie: Okay. Right. Okay. So, and a lot of these youth, by the way, are extremely [00:10:35] intellectual. You know, they're, they're the gifted, quirky kids. Some of [00:10:40] them are on the autism spectrum. And, uh, they [00:10:45] love to intellectualize and many of them come from very intellectual families. A lot of the people I work with [00:10:50] are brilliant.
[00:10:51] Stephanie: Common misperception about my work, by the way, is, is that you, you know, [00:10:55] need to be educated because you're, you're not that smart or you don't understand psychology, and that's why you come to me. [00:11:00] You know, I work with extremely brilliant people.
[00:11:02] SKOT: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:02] Stephanie: Um, I, I work with people at all [00:11:05] levels intellectually and in terms of their understanding of psychology.
[00:11:08] Stephanie: I've worked with therapists, [00:11:10] um, and doctors. Engineers, but this stuff is really tricky. Mm-hmm. And [00:11:15] that's why we need help with it. Right? So it's sometimes intellectual families, because they're, they're so [00:11:20] intellectual themselves are the ones most likely to get sucked in to these, uh, [00:11:25] you know, logical headbutting battles with their kids and miss some of the [00:11:30] indicators of what's going on underneath the surface emotionally.
[00:11:33] Stephanie: So the social [00:11:35] justice narratives. That's what's empowering [00:11:40] intellectually, some of the bad ideas and the toxic [00:11:45] emotional traits.
[00:11:45] Dennison: Mm-hmm. Gotcha. Okay. And then the third one, gender [00:11:50] identity ideology, which is sort of the new piece I think has been [00:11:55] devised over the last decade and a half or so that, um, [00:12:00] basically.
[00:12:02] Dennison: You're trapped and we've got the way out for you. [00:12:05] We can transition you to the opposite gender. That's essentially what it's about, and there's no kind of [00:12:10] leeway there. Is that correct?
[00:12:12] Stephanie: Yeah. And I mean, this ideology has roots, a century old, [00:12:15] and you know, that's where we have the excellent work of people like Helen Joyce, who've written books like trans, you know, [00:12:20] exposing where this came from.
[00:12:21] Stephanie: But it's so prevalent now. Now it's reached the level that [00:12:25] the narrative is that a. Um, you are assigned a sex at [00:12:30] birth and the doctor has no idea what they're doing when they do that. They're just making a rough [00:12:35] guess based on the thing between your leg legs, but that's actually bigotry for them to judge you based on your [00:12:40] genitalia and, uh, you know, the, the ideology just, just goes from there.
[00:12:43] Stephanie: You don't need to,
[00:12:44] Dennison: [00:12:45] right, right. So it, it's very, I would imagine very difficult for a therapist [00:12:50] to try to speak freely when that. General narrative is taking [00:12:55] place. If you go against that flow of, well, you know, you have [00:13:00] thoughts that you might be the other gender, well quick, we gotta get you into care. And care [00:13:05] means, uh, procedures, uh, medication, um, [00:13:10] bottom surgery potentially.
[00:13:11] Dennison: Um, and seems like when there's, [00:13:15] there's consensus for that. And it's consensus around science we saw with COVID [00:13:20] can be troublesome.
[00:13:23] Stephanie: Well, and that's [00:13:25] why so many therapists, the, the therapist, the exact therapist that you'd most [00:13:30] want your kid to be seeing in this situation, those therapists [00:13:35] are not even working with anyone remotely dealing with this issue [00:13:40] because of the expectations that patients are bringing into therapy and the, you know, [00:13:45] combined with a highly litigious environment.
[00:13:47] Stephanie: And the myths of, uh, regarding [00:13:50] conversion therapy that are being spread, this idea that anyone who's trying to help [00:13:55] young people come into congruence and acceptance with their sex body is [00:14:00] trying to convert them and that this is an abusive and ineffective practice. [00:14:05] Um, so those, those narratives certainly aren't helping.
[00:14:08] Stephanie: It is really hard to find [00:14:10] a good therapist that is willing to address this issue holistically. [00:14:15]
[00:14:15] Dennison: Yeah. Um, so especially when you have DM five, defining gender dysphoria as [00:14:20] psychological distress that arises from a mismatch between the person's experience or [00:14:25] express gender and their sex assigned. Gender at birth diagnosis [00:14:30] helps individuals access the healthcare and treatment necessary.
[00:14:34] Dennison: To [00:14:35] focusing on the distress rather than labeling gender as a disorder, gender di [00:14:40] identity as a disorder. So it sounds like the medical community is all for this. [00:14:45] Like you've gotta get the, the treatments and there's no, uh. [00:14:50] Examination of other possibilities. Is that kind of a thing?
[00:14:53] Stephanie: To be fair, there is, there's definitely [00:14:55] a false manufactured consensus because when you start digging into this issue and talking to [00:15:00] other professionals, you realize that there have been people in every relevant professional sphere who have been [00:15:05] trying to push back on this.
[00:15:06] Stephanie: You know, there, there are people in the community, mental health [00:15:10] professionals, I'm just one, some have bigger presences than mine publicly, and some have, [00:15:15] are, are doing quieter work behind the scenes. Um. In, in the [00:15:20] communities of endocrinologists, you have doctors like William Malone blowing the whistle [00:15:25] and pediatricians.
[00:15:25] Stephanie: You have doctors like Julia Mason blowing the whistle. And, uh, [00:15:30] in our documentary, uh, no Way Back, the Reality of Gender Affirming Care. Julia [00:15:35] Mason explains what happened when, uh, she and other pediatricians tried to [00:15:40] raise this issue. It was one of the most popular issues in the forums. [00:15:45] Demanding a, a review of the literature on the subject, and it [00:15:50] got squelched by the, uh, by the pediatric association.
[00:15:53] Stephanie: I forget. Uh, [00:15:55] A-P-A-A-P-A-A-A-P. Yeah. I get all the organizations mixed up. All the acronyms, [00:16:00] but yeah, I mean, they, they silenced the descent. They actually changed the [00:16:05] process by which doctors are allowed to bring up issues in those forums in order to silence [00:16:10] descent. So it's a manufactured consensus.
[00:16:12] Dennison: Mm-hmm. So it must have political roots [00:16:15] that are pretty powerful too. 'cause the insurance is covering this now. I, I know [00:16:20] when my mother needed a pacemaker, we found her twice on the floor, uh, you [00:16:25] know, barely breathing before they would say, okay, she, the insurance will [00:16:30] cover it, you know, and, and for this, it's like, no problem.
[00:16:33] Dennison: Assurance has got it. [00:16:35] Uh, so there's, there's some kind of power or movement from above, almost [00:16:40] like, um. I don't know. Some of the other movements we've seen Me too, where it doesn't [00:16:45] seem to be as grassroots or BLM, it's much more AstroTurf corporate money. [00:16:50] Um, is this a profitable industry? What's driving this [00:16:55] funding?
[00:16:55] Dennison: And, and
[00:16:55] Stephanie: yeah. I mean, I, when it comes to questions like that, I'm, you know, my stance is [00:17:00] always like I'm just one blind man feeling the elephant. And I can tell you what it feels like from over here, [00:17:05] but I don't know the shape of the whole elephant. There. There are other people who've. Dove much deeper than [00:17:10] I have into that, but it definitely feels like a sinister agenda and there are some very [00:17:15] wealthy and powerful, frankly, narcissistic autogynephilia [00:17:20] males at, you know, trying to run things from a position of power for [00:17:25] sure.
[00:17:25] Stephanie: I, I don't know. I don't know all the details there.
[00:17:29] Dennison: Okay, so [00:17:30] when you do your work, ROGD, repair parents come to you from [00:17:35] all over the country. And all
[00:17:36] Stephanie: over the world actually.
[00:17:38] Dennison: Ah, so how do [00:17:40] they approach you? How do they find you and what's that process like for people?
[00:17:44] Stephanie: Well, [00:17:45] so my career's just kind of snowballed.
[00:17:47] Stephanie: Uh, now I don't, I don't see [00:17:50] any patients anymore right now. Now. Mm-hmm. I, I retain my license as a marriage and family [00:17:55] therapist. Um. Partly if nothing else, just to maintain the [00:18:00] authority that that gives me to say I am an LMFT and I declare that this is wrong until they come and [00:18:05] take my license from me, which they've tried and failed before,
[00:18:07] SKOT: thankfully.
[00:18:08] Stephanie: Um, you know, so, [00:18:10] but I mean, I went from being just a therapist to a therapist and a public [00:18:15] figure to a therapist, a public figure, and a consultant. 'cause I decided to [00:18:20] start just seeing what people wanted to talk to me about. Um, who were approaching me from [00:18:25] different situations. Mm-hmm. And then I, I stopped doing therapy, uh, a little over a year ago [00:18:30] just to focus on this issue given my limited bandwidth.
[00:18:33] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. And. [00:18:35] Now I coach parents from all over the world and pulling back on therapy gave me the [00:18:40] space to not only focus on this issue, but put all the core themes and [00:18:45] lessons that I've learned from doing this work with families into the program, [00:18:50] ROGD repair, which now anyone can sign up. For, so my work is essentially twofold in that regard, where I have [00:18:55] my individual and couples, um, that I do coaching with, and they can find me from anywhere in the [00:19:00] world as long as they speak English.
[00:19:01] Stephanie: So, um, most of my, um, most of my clients are [00:19:05] in the US but I have some in Canada, some in Great Britain and Australia. [00:19:10] Um. Usually they'll just click on [00:19:15] my Calendly link, um, through my bio site on my social [00:19:20] media or through the notes in my show notes on my podcast. Mm-hmm. You must be some kind of therapist.
[00:19:24] Stephanie: Um, [00:19:25] and just a lot of people will book like a free discovery call, which I'm not doing right now 'cause I'm about to go on [00:19:30] vacation. Or they'll just kind of go ahead and pay for a full consultation 'cause they're feeling like desperate to dive [00:19:35] in and they, maybe they've listened to enough on my podcast to know that I'm there for.
[00:19:38] Stephanie: For helping people like them, [00:19:40] um, or they find my course@ogdrepair.com, right? [00:19:45] And, um, and then they, you know, might work with me [00:19:50] one-on-one In addition to that. Um. What was your question? Just how do they find [00:19:55] me?
[00:19:55] Dennison: Yeah, how do they find you, and then where do you go from there? Once they come to you, do you, do they, uh, you [00:20:00] recommend the course, you recommend counseling?
[00:20:02] Dennison: Um,
[00:20:02] Stephanie: I always recommend the course, and honestly, I [00:20:05] need to revise my process because I, I need to make it very clear, like, I don't wanna work with you if you're not [00:20:10] willing to do the course as mm-hmm. If, if this like, 'cause. You're making me repeat myself 'cause I've already said [00:20:15] certain things in the course.
[00:20:15] Stephanie: You can do it on your own time, but, uh, you know, the best combination is to do the course [00:20:20] and, and work with me one-on-one. Um, so yeah, I always recommend the course. And [00:20:25] then in terms of the coaching work I do, it's, [00:20:30] and thank you for inviting me to articulate my process because I actually need to be able to, [00:20:35] um, kind of put this into like a FAQ or something soon.
[00:20:39] Stephanie: Um. [00:20:40] So I, I meet with ideally [00:20:45] mom and dad. Um, so, you know, best case scenario, there's a, [00:20:50] a healthy, strong marriage there. Um, but sometimes. If [00:20:55] they're not married or they're not on the same page about this issue, or they're, um, [00:21:00] maybe one person's a lot more invested in doing something like getting help. [00:21:05] Um, so sometimes I'll meet with one parent or the other.
[00:21:07] Stephanie: I also love it if we can involve other family [00:21:10] members. So sometimes there's a special grandparent that has a really close relationship. [00:21:15] The kid that we're worried about, or an older sibling that, uh, is worried about [00:21:20] them, you know? So if we have other family members who are also concerned, I really like to include them in the [00:21:25] process.
[00:21:25] Stephanie: And, um, the family tells me [00:21:30] about their kid. And over the course of typically. [00:21:35] Several hours together. Um, they paint essentially a picture in my [00:21:40] mind of who this young person is, their personality, what makes them tick. Um, their [00:21:45] psychological defenses, their common reactions to things, their motives, their feelings, their [00:21:50] relationships.
[00:21:50] Stephanie: You know, I, I get this picture in my mind. [00:21:55] And then we look at what the family can affect. 'cause [00:22:00] like I said, um. You know, I say to religious families, God gave your child free [00:22:05] will. Right? Your child has free will. And, uh, in some cases they're [00:22:10] already an adult. In some cases they're already medicalizing by the time the family comes to me.
[00:22:14] Stephanie: [00:22:15] Um, and I will tell them, if it's not the ideal time for an intervention, I'll still [00:22:20] always work with people. Almost always work with people on turning over every stone we can turn over. And I'm approaching [00:22:25] this from a stand of, you know, how do we reduce the total amount of damage that is done to this person in the [00:22:30] course of their lifetime?
[00:22:30] Stephanie: How do we, you know, add years back onto their lives by [00:22:35] I. Playing our cards in such a way that they're likely to, you know, [00:22:40] get off the hormone sooner rather than later. So I do kind of approach things from a harm reduction standpoint. [00:22:45] Um, but you know, I'll let people know if it's like a really dangerous time.
[00:22:49] Stephanie: For example, is like [00:22:50] kid just turned 18 and immediately went on hormones. Now, like two months in, [00:22:55] they're feeling on top of the world. This is a very hard time to intervene. Um, so I'll let people know [00:23:00] what I'm hearing in terms of what's working for them and against them.
[00:23:03] SKOT: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:04] Stephanie: I will [00:23:05] tell them what they're doing wrong, you know, and it's no judgment on you as a person [00:23:10] or you a parent, but it's to say, look, you wanna be effective, here's the nature of the beast you're dealing with.
[00:23:14] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. [00:23:15] And here are the rules of the game for engaging with that beast. Here are the mistakes you made in that game. [00:23:20]
[00:23:20] Dennison: Now in terms of mistakes, are most parents, uh, are they, um, do they hope to [00:23:25] ignore it and it'll go away? Are they That's one author, one that's one. Are they authoritative? You are not [00:23:30] trans.
[00:23:30] Dennison: This is crazy. Snap out of it.
[00:23:32] Stephanie: That can be another.
[00:23:33] Dennison: Um, are they, [00:23:35] um, enablers? Like, okay, if you're trans, we'll, we'll get, let's go. We
[00:23:39] Stephanie: That's a third. [00:23:40] Yeah. Keep going down the list.
[00:23:43] Dennison: Um, [00:23:45] what else do you have? So those were three that came to me.
[00:23:49] Stephanie: Um, [00:23:50] here's one that might surprise you. Uh, trying to show your kid Detransition [00:23:55] videos.
[00:23:56] Stephanie: So a lot of people think detransition are gonna be the way to get through to your kids [00:24:00] about this. And I, I do always say, you know, take my advice with a grain of salt. [00:24:05] Nobody knows your kid better than you. If there's a reason that you think an intervention that I think is ill-advised, [00:24:10] might be effective, I'm all ears.
[00:24:11] Stephanie: And you know, there's, for everything I say, [00:24:15] there's a time that the opposite is probably more advisable. That being said, I have some [00:24:20] general rules of thumb. One of them is don't be overly [00:24:25] hopeful to talking to your kids about detransition or showing them det transits videos is [00:24:30] going to be effective. And I am just reminded of that because it happened again today.
[00:24:35] Stephanie: A family, lovely people, by the way. No shade on them. Great, wonderful people. [00:24:40] But. They had the same naive hope that every parent has that Oh, just learning about [00:24:45] Detransition. And there was an opening with their kid where their kid told them to go learn about Detransition. [00:24:50] So okay, we're thinking, you know, great, we'll take that opening.
[00:24:54] Stephanie: Your [00:24:55] kid said you should go learn about Detransition. So now we're gonna circle back and say. [00:25:00] Wow. I, I, I, you told me to learn about Detransition and I did. And [00:25:05] Wow. I'm so shocked. And you know, so we talked about how to sort of use that to [00:25:10] their advantage. Mm-hmm. But then they really wanted to show their kid Detras videos, and I [00:25:15] explained why we don't do that in the RGD repair approach.
[00:25:19] Stephanie: Um, [00:25:20] but I always say, you know, God gives you free will too. And you know, who's to say, you should listen to me. Maybe I'm [00:25:25] wrong. Right,
[00:25:25] Dennison: right.
[00:25:26] Stephanie: So. Uh, you know, against my advice, [00:25:30] um, they, they did proceed with trying to watch a [00:25:35] detransition video with their child, and here's the reaction they got. Daughter [00:25:40] immediately explained all the reasons that she is different from the girl in the video.
[00:25:44] Dennison: Of [00:25:45] course,
[00:25:45] Stephanie: of course. Right. So, so this is, this is where your kid's gonna meet you logically, [00:25:50] intellectually, rationally with it is, oh, I'm different because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? Well, what's [00:25:55] the underlying motivation here? The motivation is I have a [00:26:00] fragile ego. I have latched onto this idea of being trans is something that gives [00:26:05] me comfort and like a shield to, to navigate the world.
[00:26:09] Stephanie: It makes me [00:26:10] feel powerful. And the last thing I wanna do is [00:26:15] identify myself with someone remorseful and ashamed. Who's saying I made a huge [00:26:20] mistake. That is the last thing in the world. A trans identified young P person at [00:26:25] this stage with their ego development,
[00:26:27] SKOT: right,
[00:26:27] Stephanie: is, you know, their, their [00:26:30] motivation going into watching something like that is to get intellectual about [00:26:35] how many ways can I count the differences between myself and this person so I can explain why they're [00:26:40] not like me.
[00:26:41] Stephanie: And you want your kid to see themselves in this person, it's not gonna [00:26:45] happen. So. That's a common mistake.
[00:26:48] Dennison: Got you. So the film no [00:26:50] way back, you wouldn't recommend necessarily?
[00:26:52] Stephanie: No. And I mean, again, everyone's different. You know, [00:26:55] I'll be 10, 20 meetings into a family and we'll go over why specifically [00:27:00] they think that that film might land with their kid because there's an opening or [00:27:05] because of.
[00:27:05] Stephanie: Particular series of events that's happened.
[00:27:08] SKOT: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:08] Stephanie: That's where the sort of [00:27:10] customization comes in. And then in my program, ROGD Repair, which is a self-paced course, you don't [00:27:15] have to hire me as a consultant to do the course. Right. Part of how I have people customize the materials, I'll have a [00:27:20] lesson where I'm giving a talk and there's some written parts, and then there'll be a q and [00:27:25] a for you.
[00:27:26] Stephanie: Reflect on how does this apply to you? So it'll be, you know, if I were to say this [00:27:30] to my child, how would she respond? Um, that's, you know, where I [00:27:35] try to approximate the coaching process by getting people to think about the [00:27:40] specifics of how their child reacts to things.
[00:27:42] Dennison: Gotcha. Gotcha. Now, um, [00:27:45] so interesting hearing you speak about this.
[00:27:47] Dennison: It's really fascinating. What about when the parents [00:27:50] aren't on the same page? You are almost doing marriage counseling before you can do. [00:27:55] This counseling with ROGD repair, that [00:28:00] must be incredibly difficult and I'm so, so the couple as well.
[00:28:02] Stephanie: I'm so clear on my boundaries that [00:28:05] with this coaching work, I'm here to talk to people who are on our side of this [00:28:10] issue.
[00:28:10] Stephanie: Like I'm not here to convert anyone, right? I'm not here to convince you about it. [00:28:15] When you're ready to learn, you know, if you've been affirming and now you're questioning that and you're open to learning, [00:28:20] fine. But it, yeah, if, I mean it depends on when you say they're not on the same page. I don't work with [00:28:25] people where one believes that affirming is the right approach.
[00:28:28] Stephanie: I definitely work [00:28:30] with people where they're both concerned, but they have different ways of thinking that they should go about it. [00:28:35] You know, families where maybe dad is less worried than mom and thinks they should be [00:28:40] more lax and more compromising. So like, here's a common scenario. Um, children [00:28:45] often have conflict with the same sex parent and that same sex parent is their role [00:28:50] model.
[00:28:50] Stephanie: That's probably, you know, if you're a young woman and you're in conflict with your mom, [00:28:55] she looks a lot like you're gonna look as an adult. She has a lot of your same traits. She's the woman who raised you. [00:29:00] So your conflict with your mom as a young woman is a, a [00:29:05] big part of this sort of trans identity.
[00:29:07] Stephanie: And so. There's already, [00:29:10] let's say more scapegoating, triangulation, bad cop dynamic in the mother-daughter [00:29:15] relationship. And mom's the one holding the line saying, we cannot affirm, we [00:29:20] have to keep using she her pronouns. We, you know, we can't endorse this. No, we're [00:29:25] drawing the line at the binder. We're drawing a line at this and that.
[00:29:27] Stephanie: Right? And dad's saying, well, you know, I just think, you know, in [00:29:30] order to preserve the relationship, we can kind of compromise on calling her they, or we can. You know, [00:29:35] we can let her bind like eight hours a day, but not 16. Or, you know, dad might have this [00:29:40] idea, but if they end up triangulated in that rather than acting.[00:29:45]
[00:29:45] Stephanie: As, as a unified team, then that particular triangulation is only [00:29:50] exacerbating the mother-daughter conflict because mom is bad cop and dad is good cop. And you [00:29:55] know, now daughter's unconscious association is mom's no fun. [00:30:00] I wanna identify with my male role model, right? So absolutely we're, you know, we, [00:30:05] there is sort of a like family therapy element to things, although again, I'm very clear this is coaching, I'm [00:30:10] providing educational guidance.
[00:30:12] Stephanie: I'm not diagnosing or treating mental illness.
[00:30:14] Dennison: [00:30:15] Now it seems like, uh, are there more girls than boys transitioning these days? I, [00:30:20] I thought it used to be more girls transitioning, but now I hear there's a rise in boys transitioning.
[00:30:24] Stephanie: [00:30:25] Yeah. Again, like I can only feel my little corner of the [00:30:30] elephant. Mm-hmm.
[00:30:30] Stephanie: But from what it looks like from here, yeah. The narrative [00:30:35] certainly five years ago, whenever like. Irreversible damage came out. Uh, certainly the [00:30:40] narrative and the numbers were showing, you know, this is 80% girls to [00:30:45] 20% boys, and that was part of what was used in the justification for why we're [00:30:50] taking such a critical look at this.
[00:30:51] Stephanie: Because historically, gender dysphoria was prevalent since early [00:30:55] childhood and early childhood, and pri primarily males. [00:31:00] But what we're seeing now. At least again, from my corner of the elephant, a [00:31:05] lot of college age males kind of lagging behind the females following in their footsteps. [00:31:10]
[00:31:10] Dennison: Mm. Now, is porn connected to this at all for
[00:31:13] Stephanie: Absolutely.[00:31:15]
[00:31:15] Dennison: Okay. Um,
[00:31:16] Stephanie: yeah. Where are you going with that?
[00:31:18] Dennison: Well, I've just heard, uh, [00:31:20] porn is so destructive sexually, especially for boys in so many different ways, whether it's [00:31:25] just they don't attach to girls in any way at all. You know, they, or [00:31:30] also the roles are such that, you know, a lot of guys are afraid to look at a girl they [00:31:35] feel attracted to because it could be conceived as harassment.
[00:31:39] Dennison: [00:31:40] And so I, it seems like a lot of the teenage. Boys I work with [00:31:45] or know are kind of just shutting off from dating and [00:31:50] maybe this porn avenue takes them there. I know it can take them to a lot of places. [00:31:55] So
[00:31:55] Stephanie: yeah, it's, it's such a major factor. I, I had a detransition on my [00:32:00] podcast, um, Shane Cole, who has been very open about [00:32:05] his history of addiction to hypnosis porn, and I asked [00:32:10] him.
[00:32:11] Stephanie: What percent of ROGD boys is this relevant to? He said [00:32:15] 99%. And you know, that's what I would guess too, but hearing [00:32:20] that from a male who's been there, done that,
[00:32:22] SKOT: Hmm.
[00:32:23] Stephanie: Um, [00:32:25] it's. I always tell parents who don't know this yet, like this is the [00:32:30] Occam's Razor explanation. You know, this is, especially with a [00:32:35] lot of the behavior in the males that feels really incoherent.[00:32:40]
[00:32:40] Stephanie: You know, the males who have always been very male, typical in their interests and [00:32:45] personality, um, the males who are heterosexual. And [00:32:50] as well some of the sexual flipping that goes on for some of them, because [00:32:55] we have a lot now of these boys where all signs until recently [00:33:00] point to them being straight.
[00:33:01] Stephanie: And now they are trans-identified and [00:33:05] they have a trans-identified boyfriend and they're pretending to be lesbians together. And the [00:33:10] nature of those sexual relationships from all the clues that we can get from an outside perspective [00:33:15] is very much like. It looks like parallel play, kind of mutual masturbation.[00:33:20]
[00:33:20] Stephanie: Um, it doesn't look like a full-blown, passionate, intimate [00:33:25] relationship, but that's how warped these kids have gotten through getting [00:33:30] almost all of their sexual experiences through. Very twisted forms of [00:33:35] pornography and masturbation oftentimes combined with having an online [00:33:40] gaming addiction. So the idea of sort of parallel play each being in their own universe, giving [00:33:45] themselves pleasure, that's kind of all they know of sexuality.
[00:33:49] Stephanie: And then they [00:33:50] end up in these like quasi sexual relationships with other boys who were [00:33:55] also presenting and calling themselves girls and maybe taking estrogen [00:34:00] and. Yeah, they never really get to experience [00:34:05] all the feelings and realities that come with, um, having actual [00:34:10] attraction to girls and, and pursuing that.
[00:34:11] Stephanie: And it's very sad because, oh, these are [00:34:15] their formative experiences, you know?
[00:34:18] Dennison: Stephanie, we have about [00:34:20] a minute and a half left, so I was hoping you could, you know, say anything that we haven't talked about you think [00:34:25] PE parents need to hear. And then again, you can mention how they find your work and your, your [00:34:30] podcast, as I mentioned earlier, some therapists.
[00:34:32] Dennison: Oh, absolutely. Fabulous. [00:34:35]
[00:34:35] Stephanie: Oh, thank you. Well, I mean, this is just gonna be blatant self-promotion, but the, [00:34:40] the number one thing I hear is I wish I'd had these tools sooner. I had a [00:34:45] parent, uh, schedule a free discovery call with me a few weeks ago who asked. She [00:34:50] described how her son in his late twenties was now dating a trans identified [00:34:55] person and all these other changes in his personality.
[00:34:56] Stephanie: And I said, well, are you worried that he's going to [00:35:00] announce he's trans soon? And she says, well, he hasn't. So no. I thought, [00:35:05] Ugh. Like I see the writing on the wall, and you know, it's whenever people aren't in that [00:35:10] place of feeling like it's a dire emergency, they're hesitant to invest in really doing the work and [00:35:15] paying the money for the help.
[00:35:16] Stephanie: But it's really, if you listen to parents [00:35:20] further down this path, they will always tell you, I wished I'd had these tools sooner. So if you think this is a worry for [00:35:25] your kid. By all means pursue it. And I've had a lot of people go through the course and say, this would be great [00:35:30] preventative knowledge. So yeah.
[00:35:31] Stephanie: Blatant self-promotion. But it's true, it's based on [00:35:35] experience and especially because the early phase of working with a, a new couple is usually finding out [00:35:40] all the things that they wish they'd done differently. Right? So you can avoid making those mistakes if you get [00:35:45] on it early enough.
[00:35:47] Dennison: Wow. Thank you so much Stephanie.
[00:35:49] Dennison: Win, [00:35:50] uh, ROGD repair. You have a great course for folks. You're also, are you on Twitter as [00:35:55] well?
[00:35:55] Stephanie: I'm on X at some therapist. My account is currently locked. You can [00:36:00] request to follow me and if I like your bio, I might.
[00:36:03] Dennison: Okay.
[00:36:04] Stephanie: And, um, [00:36:05] we didn't discuss the coupon code specifically for your listeners. We didn't plan for that, but I will give them my coupon [00:36:10] code.
[00:36:10] Stephanie: Um, they can use some therapist 2025 to take half off their first month at RO [00:36:15] gd repair.com.
[00:36:16] Dennison: Fantastic. Stephanie, thank you so much again, and, and [00:36:20] just the work you're doing is so important and brave of you to go this [00:36:25] route and, but I know you're following your heart and your conscience and you wanna help people.
[00:36:28] Dennison: So [00:36:30] thank, thank
[00:36:30] Stephanie: you so much for
[00:36:31] SKOT: having me on, Dennis. It's been a pleasure.
[00:36:33] Dennison: All the best. Take care. [00:36:35]
[00:36:36] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to you Must Be some kind of Therapist [00:36:40] if you enjoyed this episode. Kindly take a moment to rate, review, [00:36:45] share, or comment on. Using your platform of choice. And of course, please [00:36:50] remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist.
[00:36:54] Stephanie: [00:36:55] Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake [00:37:00] and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the [00:37:05] gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, [00:37:10] ROGD, repair Any resource you heard mentioned on this [00:37:15] show. Plus have. Get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below [00:37:20] rain or shine.
[00:37:22] Stephanie: I hope you'll step outside to breathe the air [00:37:25] today in the words of Max Airman. With all its sham, [00:37:30] drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [00:37:35] [00:37:40] [00:37:45] [00:37:50] [00:37:55] [00:38:00] [00:38:05] world.