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The "No BS" version of how startups are really built, taught by actual startup Founders who have lived through all of it. Hosts Wil Schroter and Ryan Rutan talk candidly about the intense struggles Founders face both personally and professionally as they try to turn their idea into something that will change the world.
Welcome back to the episode of
the Startup Therapy Podcast.
This is Ryan Rutan, joined
as always by my friend, the
founder, and CEO of startup com.
Will Schroeder.
Will, it is no secret that
as founders we get a little
obsessed with things.
We, we dive in, we go
full onto our startups.
This leads to burnout.
And we know, like thanks to some
of the, the, the new narrative
that it's appearing, that it
isn't just all crush, it, kill,
go, you know, 80 hours a day.
And so there are a lot of
things we try to do to relax.
And I know you've tried a bunch
of stuff, a bunch of stuff.
Like the whole sitting on the
beach thing doesn't seem to
work all that well for us.
We can't really fully unplug
and disengage and so sometimes
relaxation becomes as much
of a frustration for me
and I know for you as just
actually doing the work.
And so what have you tried?
Like
what's worked for you?
Will.
Here's the weird thing.
I've tried everything.
Yeah.
I mean, like, you know, and
you and I've talked about
this especially I'd say
in the last Ryan, probably
a decade of our lives.
Yeah.
Where we've realized that
like working all the time
also isn't the right answer.
Fortunately obvious to a lot of
people was less obvious to us.
So then I was, okay, so I'm
gonna, I'll work less so
to speak, I'll relax more.
And then I tried relaxing
and it didn't work.
It became a real issue.
Yeah.
It became an issue where like
I knew I needed the downtime.
I knew I needed to reset,
come off the field rest, and
then, you know, go back, uh,
healthier and more productive.
I knew that was true, so it
wasn't a matter of I'm not
willing to to work less.
It wasn't that Right.
It was when I came
off the field.
I never felt rested.
Yeah.
When I came off the field,
like I was more distracted.
It was almost like all I
wanted to do was play and now
you're keeping me on the bench.
What's not worked for you?
Like, what have you
tried that just didn't work?
A lot of the same stuff.
Right.
So it's like the, the
traditional hobby set, right.
The, all those things.
So like for example, I,
I think you, you messaged
me this morning early
and, and I responded,
you know, that I was out.
I was, and I jokingly said that
I was, you know, conducting
a case study for today's
episode and I, I was running.
And so some of these things,
like people have all kinds
of hobbies and I've tried
lots of different stuff.
Something like running doesn't
work at all for me because the
entire time I'm running, I'm
still just thinking about work.
There's nothing else to do.
Right.
I don't like to
listen to podcasts.
I don't like, it doesn't,
doesn't work for me.
Uh, for whatever.
I, I love to be able to
take notes during podcasts,
so it's the same kind of
frustration because I'm just
thinking, so I'm basically
podcasting in my own head
while I'm running this morning.
I have no way to act
on any of this stuff.
I think that's kinda the macro
theme for me is basically
anything that's where, where I'm
supposed to just be relaxed and
like I've got nothing but time.
Like, like I'm on the beach,
I'm, I'm by the pool, I'm,
I'm walking, whatever it is.
I enjoy these activities,
but they don't recharge
me as a, as a reset.
And I think it's because when
I'm given that much free time.
My mind gets really
active typically on a
work startup problem, but
I can't take any action.
I think that's where
that's, maybe that's
the same thing for you.
That's where I start to, it
turns from just not only not
being restful to actually
being actively frustrating.
Absolutely.
It makes it worse happen today.
Halfway through my jog,
I had this argument.
I was like, oh, I should
test this thing, right?
And something happened.
I had to dodge a lady and a dog,
and then I saw my mother-in-law,
the direction to be high fived,
and then all of a sudden I was
like, shit, what was that thing?
Because if I had been sitting
down, if I had been working.
I would've just written it down.
I would've typed it out.
I would've done something
that would've memorialized it,
and I was running, I'm like.
Damn it.
Now I can't remember what was
that thing I wanted to do.
And it just turns into
frustration 'cause
I can't take action.
And the thing is, we cognitively
know that rest and relaxation
is good and we're seeking it.
Yes.
So it's not like
we're saying rest bad.
Right.
We're saying rest good,
but she's not working good.
But wear rest.
Yeah.
Right.
So I would go on vacations and
my wife and I were just talking
about this last night and,
uh, we were planning our, our
next anniversary trip Uhhuh.
And she's like,
you hate vacation.
And I was like.
You know, you're not wrong.
I do hate vacation
and I suck at it.
Yeah.
And, and, and
here's what happens.
Lemme just play this out
and, and I'm saying this
because I've gotta imagine
that there's some other
folks in the audience, right?
You know, that, that are
listening to this, that are
like, yeah, this is pretty
much how vacation goes for me.
But here's how
vacation goes for me.
I have two paths in planning
the vacation path a. Is
I plan a really nice,
like rewarding vacation.
Mm-hmm.
Which translates to
a lot of expense.
Yeah.
Path B is, I, I, I
do a phone it in.
I don't give a shit
where we go vacation.
Right.
Which usually is a
family vacation, right?
Yeah.
Because they're always the same.
What ends up happening in both
cases, if I go on nice vacation.
Right.
Where like it feels
like a reward.
Like the place we're
going is like super nice.
Yeah.
The entire time all I'm
doing is almost like, like an
odometer running like a taxi.
Yeah.
Running the cost
of this vacation.
You're, you're constantly
real time calculating ROI.
Yeah, exactly.
Am I getting $1,800 a
day, which would be how
many per hour right.
Am I getting?
$75 per hour worth of me.
Now I'm
stressed, right?
I'm stressed that I'm sitting on
this, this beach chair, right?
Yep.
Staring at the ocean where
all I can think about is work.
And now I'm more stressed,
that I'm stressed, that
I'm on va. I'm like, this
isn't working at all.
And when I go on
cheap vacation, right?
Just to wherever I. I'm
miserable the whole time.
It doesn't feel like
a reward at all.
I'm like covered in, in
like dirt from all these
other kids at Disney World
or something like that.
While I love the time with
my kids at the same time,
it's like this doesn't
feel relaxing whatsoever.
Right.
I always have the sense that
I'm also doing something in an
environment that's somehow less
enjoyable than my own home.
Right?
Yeah, exactly.
We, we have nice houses.
We like, we've, we've designed
where we lived in a way that
makes us happy to be there.
And so like if I go on something
like run of the mill vacation.
It feels like a step backwards.
Like, it's funny we've
said this before, but my
wife and I both said this.
Sometimes when we go home, that
feels like the vacation, right?
And to me, that's
kind of the goal.
That's the way I want it to
feel right At this point.
We don't go on vacations
for relaxation.
We don't go on
vacations to, to reset.
We don't go on vacations
to escape our every day.
We go on vacations to see
things we haven't seen before
or, or have new experience.
And I think for
us, that does work.
And I, I do enjoy those.
But it also isn't necessarily
a, a, a reset in, in that same,
that traditional sense that
it's like, no, it's worse.
Take the book, go sit by
the pool, read it, you know,
it doesn't work, right?
Just absolutely doesn't
work for me.
What bothered me was
how consistently and
effective it was.
Right.
How everyone else does it
and everyone else seems to
like, my wife's great at it.
She goes, and she,
she enjoys herself.
She recharges does everything
you're supposed to do,
and I'm glad she does.
But when I go, I'm just
anxious the whole time, all
I'm thinking about is work.
In fact, for a long time I used
to say, I can't wait till I can
get a, get some vacation time
so I can be better at work.
Like to me, like.
Vacation was literally just a
mechanism to do more work later.
Um, and I was okay with that.
But my point is, what it
didn't do woefully failed
at was getting me to, to
reset my mind, getting me
to think about something
else other than work in a
productive, useful, happy way.
And all the other
things that I've tried.
I've, I've tried meditation,
which is almost like that
frustration on steroids.
I love the idea of meditation.
Yeah.
The practice of meditation
is maddening to me.
It's like the worst place
you can put me.
I cannot get rid of
the monkey thoughts.
Like it, my, my, my, the monkey
on my back is way too strong.
It rides around, it slaps me
in the face and it's like,
think about this, think
about that, think about
this, think about that.
And I'm like, just let it go.
Like I, I, I go back to
those earliest days of
listening to the Headspace app
where, where Andy was like.
Just treat each thought as
if it's passing traffic.
And I'm like, yeah, but
every bit of that passing
traffic says something to me.
I have to say something back.
Some of them drop stuff off.
Some of them want me to
put things in their cars.
Like every bit of it.
Like there's, there's
no, just watching it go
by for me doesn't work.
It's
funny, I love Dandy 'cause
obviously he's got the
best voice in the world.
A hundred percent.
Um, like nobody could
have done a better job.
And I remember thinking about
this of Andy at getting me.
To try to relax my mind and
by the end of like day 10
of Headspace, I hated Andy.
Yeah.
Wasn't it his fault?
I was like, this guy
just reminds me of being
trapped in a coffin.
Right.
If you tell me, if
you tell me to let my
thoughts go one more time.
Andy, I'm gonna find you.
What's interesting
though, Ryan is.
I think, you know, the
common narrative for all
the right reasons is that
relaxing and taking a break
and going on vacation is
how you reset from work.
That's just how you do it.
Yeah,
and what I found over and over
and over again, more so with
founders, is it's actually
not what we're built to do.
However.
However, that's not the same as
saying, so let's just work more.
Right.
What it's saying is
we have to find an
entirely different way to
relax.
Oh.
'cause I, because it
just doesn't work.
Right.
And so I think we, we do want
to like, play devil's advocate
here for just a second.
Like, so we, we do know that
some people can unplug, right?
There are people
that can do this.
And so it's, it's not that
I. Vacations don't work,
uh, for, for some people.
So I just, I want to make sure
we're not overgeneralizing here.
I'm, I'm saying for most
people it works great.
It works great.
Yeah.
So here's, here's, but so I
am, I'm saying even within
the overgeneralization of just
the, the founder population.
I'm trying to think of,
of founders that I know.
So is this just a founder
condition or is this a
subset of a, a personality
type within the, the
overall founder archetype?
What do you think?
Oh, I'm sure it
goes beyond that.
The reason I think it seems
to be so damn, um, prevalent
within founders is because
we tend to create our worlds.
If I'm an attorney, it's not
that I'm not dedicated to my
craft, then I'm a hard worker,
but I'm not creating law.
Yeah, right.
Like I'm, I'm thinking about a
case that, you know, I'm trying
to think creatively about how
I'm gonna attack something,
but it's not existential.
Like we get into this in a
very existential way and we
are creating the universe.
If you have that type of mind
that is running and building
and creative nonstop, I would
almost argue it is a disservice.
To turn that mind off.
Yeah.
Now most people are, again,
are gonna take that and say,
well, what you're saying
is you just keep working.
No.
What we're saying and what
we're gonna unpack in this
episode is how to take that
energy and maintain it,
but do it somewhere else.
Yeah.
Because I, I think in, in, in
the, the founder's mind, right?
It's, it's if we're not
building something right,
if, if we're not building the
next feature, next campaign,
then we're just sitting and
probably worrying about.
What's already been built
or the fact that we're
not currently building,
and that's the real trap.
Right?
And I think that's
the, the problem.
So if, if moving to relaxation
mode, if that's all that buys
you is anxiety around the
fact it's not working, then,
then I think that's where you
and I are most of the time.
Then clearly just pushing
into relaxation has a net
negative impact, right?
Because I, like, I've tried the
lounge on the beach approach,
I found myself more stressed.
My mind was just spinning on
all the things that I could
have been doing other than
that, and it's hard to let go.
Why is this right?
Like why is.
Just
relaxing.
So useless for us, I think
because our minds want to grind.
Yeah.
Right.
Our minds wanna chew on
something all the time.
And I think when we try to
listen to Andy and we try
to say, okay, mind stop
chewing on things, it's
not what we're built for.
Right, right.
And, and again, that's why
it feels so foreign to us.
And for the longest time I
kept saying, it's my fault.
It's my problem.
Yeah.
I can't unwind, so I have
to change in, in a while
back I learned that.
I was doing it wrong.
I was approaching,
relaxing in the wrong way.
Now, I had a hint of this
that, that something was,
was off because a lot of
times when I would try to
relax, I'd play video games.
Yeah.
In the game that I would play
more often than not was called
Civilization, which, you
know, I, I'm sure some of the
folks I, Brian, I know you've
played, et cetera, it's the
equivalent of a full-time job.
Right.
Well it is, and you're basically
creating a civilization, making
all the same time of strategic
and tactical decisions that you
would make building a startup.
What I realize now is the
reason I was gravitating
toward that is 'cause my mind
wanted to chew on something.
Yeah.
I just needed something else
for it to chew on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Our minds are problem
solving engines, right?
That that's, that's specifically
what like we've geared ourselves
around, or we already had a
propensity towards that engine
doesn't just sit at idle
simply because you're sipping
margaritas in Maui or whatever.
Right.
It's that, that's the thing.
Wants
to run.
Now I wanna use, because I think
this is important, I want to
use a different scenario because
we keep talking about like time
off or like going to meditate.
I wanna talk about maybe the
most important moment that I
needed this distraction the
most is at 3:00 AM when I wake
up and my mind is racing on
a problem that by the way,
I will not solve right now.
Right, right, right.
Okay.
So, I mean, this has happened
to me all the time, every night.
I'll wake up at some bizarre
hour in the morning and I'll be
like, oh my God, this problem.
Okay.
This is the way my mind
works and I'm a hundred
percent sure it's the way
that our, our listeners,
I had three of these
wake up last night.
Uh, two work related.
One, preparing for paperwork for
moving to Spain, stuff right?
Literally at three
o'clock in the morning.
There is nothing I
can do at this point.
Nothing I can do.
All I can do is think about it.
It never gets solved.
That's the worst part.
It never gets solved.
I wanna hold onto
that for a second.
'cause this is actually a
really important building
block to all of this.
As founders of startups, we
have an endless number of
problems that actually don't
have a solution anytime soon.
In other words, like we
need to get more customers.
Okay, sure.
Everyone needs more
customers, but that process
will essentially take years
to get to that milestone.
Maybe months.
What it, what won't happen is
we'll solve it that day, right?
You're like, got, we got
customers Don't need to
worry about that anymore.
Done.
And so what I found was I'm
up at 3:00 AM and I'm grinding
on a problem that, number one,
I'm not gonna solve at 3:00 AM
I'm just gonna worry about it.
And number two, I can't
solve anytime soon.
Right.
This is a big one.
Yeah.
I don't think founders
appreciate or understand
how few of our problems
can be solved anytime soon,
or will be solved anytime
soon, or will ever be solved.
Right.
Some of these things
we're, we're constantly
chipping away at.
Yeah.
I think it's the case
that in as, as a founder
within a startup, we
rarely get to declare done.
Right.
Very few things are
ever done, as in it's
any level of finality.
And so I think that's where
like, and I think this is where
you're going with this, that's
why like the selection of of
personal projects, something
that's still mentally engaging,
creative outlet, physical work,
something I. There is sort
of a finite point of victory
where you can say, Hey, that's
done.
I did it.
Yep, a hundred percent.
This actually happened
yesterday and you, you were
there when it happened.
Yes, yesterday.
Internally, uh, we announced
that we just launched a huge,
huge feature on the platform,
um, to do member search with ai.
It allows people to go on into
like a natural language search.
I'm explaining for
the audience and find.
Anybody in our community that
fits what you're looking for.
Right?
Yeah.
It's so awesome.
It's one of the best
pro, it's the best
product we've ever built.
But the reason I'm bringing
it up is because it
actually launched yesterday.
Yes.
And, and, and Ryan, you were
at the all hands meeting when
we were doing the final demo
and when we hung up, I actually
stood up for my chair and
yelled at the top of my lungs.
Fuck.
Yeah.
Because it was good, I think.
Yeah.
Because I realize this
happens so rarely.
Yeah.
Yeah, we do.
We have few actual finish lines.
Yeah.
And this one was
a big one, Ryan.
Maybe we have two
a year at best.
Yeah.
And, and again, like with some
of those mileage varies and,
and even there, like look at
something like that, like we
rolled out member match, that
part of it's done, right?
The product piece is done.
Now we gotta go work on it.
We gotta get, yeah, for
five, five years on our
feature, we gotta promote it.
We gotta get people using it.
We gotta get, so like, even,
even our DUNS just tend to lead.
It's just.
You kind of get around the
corner, you're like, okay,
I made it around that corner
and now there's nothing but
but road ahead of me again.
And so it's, it's even
within those, it's rare
that we get to that like
true moment of finality.
We get to these
moments of victory.
Right?
Absolutely.
That's a midseason victory.
There's still a lot of games
to be played, uh, before
we can call that done.
Often those milestones you don't
even notice when they happen.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
My favorite thing is exactly
this, like a website launch
uhhuh, and like you want there
to be a ribbon and cutting
moment or like a giant like,
like fake switch that you flip.
In reality, a developer
somewhere just hits enter and
you know, now you've launched.
Right, right.
Like it's, it's live.
The amount of effort you've
put into this, right.
The payoff is zero.
Yep.
But I wanna step back for a
second and I wanna inventory a
couple things that we covered
here and make sure, make
sure they get isolated as,
as key building blocks here.
One, for many of us,
our minds will not stop.
It's a, a, a thankless effort
to, to try to make them stop.
And, and the truth is.
Our relaxation doesn't have to
equate to stopping our brains.
Right.
And I don't think anybody's
ever said that to us.
I, I think it's always
be, no slow down, take
a, a breather, et cetera,
and you'll be better off.
No one ever says Go
channel that somewhere.
It's the thing because it
doesn't get channeled, right?
I think what, what, it's
basically the equivalent
of keeping your foot on
the gas, but shifting
into neutral Engines still
revving RPMs are high.
We just, there's
nothing happens.
There's no movement.
There's no progress.
I was playing baseball
with my son last night.
You know, I, I got him this
Nerf bat so that we can play
indoors in the basement.
That ends well.
Worst idea ever.
Right?
Uh, I get him the bat.
He's o over the moon, like the
best g gift he's ever gotten.
Right?
And I was like,
dad, can we go play?
And so me and, and him and,
uh, Sarah, my wife, uh, we go
downstairs in the basement.
It's, and not a huge basement.
We have just enough room to
like, you know, throw the ball.
But it's, you know,
it's cold outside.
And so we throw in the ball.
It's a Nerf ball, Nerf bat.
First pitch, he
cranks a line drive.
I mean, he connected
beautifully right into my wife.
I knew where this was going.
Oh man.
And she was like, we're done.
We're done.
Anyway, my point is, last
night I played with him.
He wants to play the, uh,
baseball thing, right?
So we played forever.
He scored like 23 run.
And I was like, okay,
yo, let's take a break.
And at that moment where I'm
exhausted, you know, I've been
up since 4:00 AM It's like 7:00
PM now where I'm exhausted.
He just wants to keep going.
And again, in the back of my
head, I'm like, the, the answer
isn't to find a way to, to have
him do less, it's to find a
way to channel that energy to
something where he can do it.
Where it's seven o'clock
at night, he's gonna
go, go to bed an hour.
But my, my point is,
I'm starting to realize.
That for certain types
of energy, the goal
isn't to stop energy.
Oh.
The goal is to channel energy.
Yeah.
And I think that's, I, I
wish I had known that sooner.
I certainly know it now.
I wish I'd known it sooner.
Uh, Ryan, you've
done martial arts.
That's a big part
of martial arts.
Yeah.
Channeling your
opponent's force,
so to speak.
Yeah.
Well, and you know what, it
was funny, but, uh, so Juujitsu
was one of those activities
that actually worked well for
me because it requires a full
mental shift in focus when
there's some highly trained.
Physically strong person
trying to choke you, bend your
joints the wrong directions,
sit on you until all the air
squash, whatever it is, right?
Like there's real
consequences to that.
So you pay attention, you get,
oh, my fully engaged, my, my
customer acquisition costs.
I, you know, it's funny,
I never thought about that
despite the fact that we'd
actually mix these two things
pretty heavily because at the
early stages, the way I was
doing jiujitsu was in return.
For some business
consultation to the owner
of the studio, right?
We were trading off.
So we were literally go
from talking, here's how to
structure marketing, here's
how we can look at your CPC,
here's how we can, we can
work on your Google ads.
To him choking me out
and brutalizing me.
Right.
So in, in,
instead of having you tap out,
he's like, lower cac, that's it.
Lower cac.
That's it.
That was it.
I, I had to lower
CAC where he would
snap my, he would
snap my, my shoulder.
So one of the elements is, is
not trying to stop energy, but,
but trying to channel energy.
Yeah.
Right.
I think that's one.
A second element is this
concept that we don't
have a lot of things in
the startup world Yeah.
That tell us we're done.
The sense of finality, of
accomplishment, of being able
to walk away from something
today, I. And say, I did
that exactly the way you
felt when you left Juujitsu.
Bruises notwithstanding like
that, that the way you feel when
you're, you're done with soccer.
Like you get this feeling
where you're like, I feel
like something finished.
I think that fucks with us.
And I think it's something
that, that we do not appreciate
nearly as much as we need to.
Uh, parenting's the same way
by the way there, you know,
there are clear milestones, but
there are not enough of them.
No, there are no exit ramps.
Uh, for sure.
It's interesting because I
think that with, with certain
things like with sport, so for
me, soccer, fishing, jujitsu,
these things that are all fairly
physical activities, they, they
do have a start and a stop.
But there isn't also
a done necessarily.
I mean, it's some, someday
there will come a done where
I don't play soccer anymore.
Someday there will come a
done where I don't jiu-jitsu.
I can't imagine not
fishing, but there's always
the next time, right?
Like the, the
challenge with fishing.
We did it last night.
Uh, finally caught
something too.
A little flounder.
We're gonna have it for lunch
today, but there's always the
kids picked up on it right away.
It's one more cast, we'll
say last cast, and there's
one more cast because
there's always the
chance that the next
cast is the one.
And so what's been interesting,
and I I I really wanna get your
take on this 'cause you've had a
lot of these in the, in the last
few years, which are relatively
large scale projects, but that
do actually have like a, a
more of a sense of completion.
You're in a huge one now.
For example, for me there were,
there have been a couple, the
one was around kind of building
our, at the previous house where
we built out the little, little
kind of gardens and chicken
coop and stuff, and so like
there was a sense of completion.
I built the kids' playhouse
and there was a sense of
completion around those things.
My pond of two years ago.
Was a fantastic one
because it involved all of
these things that I love,
physical work, design,
science, biology, like it.
It was just all this really
interesting stuff and because
there was sort of a, even
there, it's not really a
final point because I'm
still optimizing, right?
I'm still figuring out
like, what, what are
the balance of fish?
How do I do this stuff?
But there was,
there's a pond now.
There wasn't a pond,
now there's a pond.
And that felt great, right?
That was truly
energizing for me.
Waking up, you know, wake
up at four 30 in the morning
instead of thinking like.
Oh, dear God, what
will cap be today?
Will we get enough traffic?
Will we, it was, I wonder if
the rate of flow is too high
given the amount of surface
area I have based on the
gravel size that I selected.
Right.
This,
this shit.
But that's a solvable problem.
That's exactly, so that's
where our story begins.
This is the longest
intro of all time.
That's where our story begins.
I think that, again,
everybody's version is gonna
be different, but what I found
was that I needed a problem, a
different problem to work on.
Yeah.
That was big enough to matter.
You know, Ryan, you're
obviously familiar with
the story, but like Yeah.
Years ago I started to get
really into, to carpentry.
Into woodworking.
Yeah.
Like building stuff and I
think it checked a lot of
boxes for me instantly.
I meet a lot of other
woodworker founders.
Yeah.
I think that, uh, I think
because it checks some of the
same boxes, which is, we like
to create, we like to invent.
I like things that have a
skill tree attached to 'em.
If we're going back to video
game references where you
can kinda level up, you know,
like carpentry, home building,
things like that, have.
Endless skill trees, everything
from being able to learn
how to build furniture,
to do electrical, to do
plumbing, like you name it,
like it's goes on forever.
A few years back, four years
ago, we were about to remodel
our home, and by this point,
Ryan, you know, I had built out
my workshop and everything else
like that, like, you know, I,
I got really, really into it
what was initially driving me.
Uh, toward, this was a
sense or two things, just
what I just described.
I found that when I was
building things, I was
not thinking about work.
Yeah.
And it was the only, only
only time where I wasn't
thinking about work and, and,
you know, glad for it because
my hands were in front of
a table saw or a miter saw
or some spinning blade that
that required some focus.
And I found.
That the second thing that
I, I didn't know that I
was looking for or that
I needed was completion.
At the end of the day, I had
completed a project and there
was an overwhelming sense of
finality and it felt good.
Feels good.
It felt really good.
Yeah.
Right.
It reminds me of the scene,
I dunno if you remember this,
in Fight Club where Edward
Norton is trying to figure
out like he's like, you know,
going through life, whatever.
Yeah.
And he finds fight club.
Yeah,
yeah.
And he ends up, you
know, getting in a fight
and he's like, and it
felt good, good, right?
Like, I mean, granted like
that was a very bizarre
and twisted version.
But it's kind of what he meant.
Yeah.
He's like, I, I knew I
was looking for something.
Something.
Yep.
Right.
Needed
to channel some energy.
Right.
Needed something with a
sense of completion needed.
Yep.
All those things.
Yeah.
And, and, and obviously the
premise of Fight Club is much
cooler than the premise of
Woodworking Club, but I don't
know the, the same feeling.
Right.
Um, I knew I needed to
build bird houses and so.
So I get into it, right?
I go down this rabbit
hole and you've been
watching this, uh, develop.
So a few years ago we decided
we're gonna remodel our house.
And uh, and I was breaking
down all the costs to do it.
This is right before Covid.
And, and I said to my
wife, I was like, you
know, like, for, for what?
It's gonna cost us to fully
remodel a house 'cause you're
really paying for it twice.
I was like, we should
just go build a new
house, build a new house.
Right.
And that's where it began.
Yeah.
That's, that's where
my obsession began.
And so for, for the folks in
the audience, what I ended
up doing was I was like,
I not only wanna build a
house, I wanna do everything.
Like I, I wanna design
the house, I wanna
learn 3D modeling.
I wanna learn interior design,
I wanna learn, I structural
engineering, like the basics
3D modeling, plus rendering.
So I could, you know,
figure out exactly what
everything would look like.
I
still trip out, man, when we
go to the house now to the
site and walk around there,
because I spent, you know.
Probably an hour in total
inside that place when it
was still just a 3D model
and I was headset's on.
Yeah.
Running around with
a, an Xbox controller.
Although I still, I,
I wish that you would
include it in real life.
The feature where I could
just levitate between floors,
that was to take the stairs
that was pretty new or become
a drone in, in, in fly out.
So he, here's what, here's
why this, and why I'm setting
it up and why this mattered.
What I was looking
for was a massive.
Overwhelming challenge
now for a lot of people,
they're like, fuck that.
I've already got a massive,
overwhelming challenge.
Like it's my kid,
or it's my my sharp.
Why would I want
another you psychopath?
And here's why.
Because it gave me something
my mind was looking for.
Yeah.
Which was a really
powerful challenge.
So powerful.
That it could force me to
have to think about that.
Yep.
At the expense of work.
Now, again, a lot of people
say, well, I don't want
anything at the expense of work.
Dude, if you're built like we
are, that ain't your problem.
Right?
Your problem isn't, oh, I guess
I'll become lazy and not work.
It's like that.
Is that Uhhuh, you crossed
that bridge a long time ago.
That ain't your problem.
Right?
Your problem is you are so
consumed by work, you don't have
the ability to recharge, which
is making you a worse player.
Yep.
That's the part that I know
I missed for years, you know
what I mean?
Yeah, for sure.
So look, you're, you're
building a house.
We're getting ready to engage
in another international move.
I've decided that international
moves are actually one
of those things for me.
And like truly
it's, it really is.
It's a, it's a full
creative project that
you have to go through in
you're redesigning life.
Is there, in your mind
a, a risk, like how do
you do the calculus?
It does have to be big
enough to matter, right?
If you're just like, I'm
going to, I don't know, I'm
gonna mow my lawn and it has
a sense of completion and
it's a physical activity.
Yeah, grass grow right back.
But it is how people
feel when they clean like
their room or their house.
Oh, a hundred percent.
A lot of people use cleaning as
a method, whether they realize
it or not, to get to completion.
Yeah.
They say it makes me feel
good, and what they're saying
is it makes me feel like
I've completed something and
that's a powerful feeling.
I.
It is also one of the
number one, uh, uh,
procrastination activities.
Oh, yeah.
You gotta be, gotta be
careful with that one, right?
It's like, I could do
that next campaign or I
could tidy my desk again.
Right, right, right, right.
From this side to that
side and at least an hour.
Agreed.
Uh, is there, so it's gonna
be big enough, but like what
about, what about too big?
Is there a risk
in going too big?
What if the second obsession,
'cause I know the people out
there again, like, 'cause
one of the things is just
like, will they do it at all?
Right.
As as you just said.
Like, they're gonna think, oh,
this is a divergence from work.
I don't need that.
I never need that.
Yeah, you do.
But is there a place where the,
the second obsession, there's
a risk of it overshadowing
the startup itself, and how
do you keep from accidentally
prioritizing the, the, the side
passion over the main hustle?
Now I, I've never had
that become a problem.
I don't think you've ever
had that become a problem.
But I think when people
hear things like.
I'm building an entire house.
I'm doing everything from the
CAD to the, to the wiring, to
the carpentry, to the cabinetry.
All they're going.
How do you actually
do both those things?
You know something that's
really funny about everything
we talk about here is
that none of it is new.
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.
You may just not know
it, but that's okay.
That's kind of what
we're here to do.
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually
solve these problems all
dayLong@groups.startups.com.
So if.
Any of this sounds familiar.
Stop guessing about what to do.
Let us just give you the answers
to the test and be done with it.
As you know, because you've
been on site, uh, you know,
Ryan came and visited me a
few weeks ago and he came on
site and he was, he helped me
build stuff out in the house.
I am way into everything, like
every last detail of this house.
Yeah.
And it's a big house, right?
So, so the gravity of it,
of everything that, that I
need to do is significant.
And so, but Ryan, you've
watched me do it and in some
case you helped me do it.
You know, I've built every
cabinet in the house.
I've built three kitchens,
I've built a bar.
I've built every closet, every
vanity tire workshop worth
of like 80 feet of benches.
And yeah, I mean everything.
And how did I do that?
Like how did I find
the time to do it?
Honestly, it was kind of this
simple, I wake up bananas early.
Yep.
And I put in two to three hours
a day before the day starts.
Now when people say that, it's
like, okay, you, you can't do
much in two to three hours.
Bullshit.
Yeah.
Over a, I'm here to
tell you, period.
Four years.
You sure as hell can?
Hell yeah, you
can.
Yeah, you can.
Um, it adds up way
more than you think.
Most people just don't have
the dedication to do it, and
I'm not Johnny dedicated.
It's just something that I love,
which is why I am doing it.
Right, but here's where it gets
interesting at three in the
morning, as soon as that, oh
shit, how are we gonna market?
Member match?
Yeah.
Thing comes up, right?
Yeah.
Now I have a process.
Yeah.
Where I say, I've been here
a million times, I know
this, I, I can't answer this.
Let me go switch gears.
To something, uh, so
some problem to do
with this house thing.
Yep.
Um, I can solve
immediately, right?
So it's like a, a certain
joint that I needed to put in
or, or how I'm gonna configure
lighting or something like that.
It works every single time.
I've found a way to take that
energy and just channel it.
Instead of trying to stop
it, sort of dam it up.
I just channel it.
But here's the key.
I channel it into something
I can actually solve.
Yep.
Right.
So this morning, again, this
is stupid and minor and dumb.
Uh, this morning, Ryan,
you came in, you helped me.
We were building, you know,
all the, the benches for the,
the new workshop in the house.
And I was trying to figure
out how to get all the
bench tops to line up.
'cause there's like a,
like a, a 45 foot long.
I. Uh, countertop that has
all these six foot, you
know, butcher block sections.
Again, none of this is
important, but that's my point.
And I was thinking like, damn,
like the, the, the, if I but 'em
up end to end, they're not gonna
be like exactly symmetrical.
So how can I make sure each
of them is cut perfectly
so they all line up so
it doesn't create a long
arc? None of this matters.
That's my point.
The point is that 3:00 AM
I can solve that problem.
Yep.
I can run through a bunch
of, uh, different ways
that I can do the cuts, the
mortis, everything else like
that and figure that out.
It's stupid.
And that's exactly why it's
beautiful because then I'm,
then I go back to sleep.
Yeah.
And I'm like, I guess
I've solved my mortis, you
know, countertop problem.
And I know most people are
gonna be like, I would never
care about that if really what
I cared about was, you know,
launching new product, whatever.
And I get it.
It's exactly what
I would've said.
That's why what you're
doing, this other obsession
has to become an obsession.
It has to be something that you
can grip into and be as worried
about that, or as excited, as
obsessed as you are about work.
Yeah, and, and I know the
problem that I'm solving there
is minuscule and dumb and damn
near irrelevant, but I also know
that if I put my focus there.
My problem is solved.
The actual problem, which
is the, the, the 3:00
AM wake up and worry.
Right.
Which never solves, we've
never solved a startup problem
at three o'clock in the
morning that I can remember
and you never will.
Yeah, right.
But 3:00 AM creativity
can actually produce
something tangible.
Right.
Whether it's, you know,
the right cuts for to, to.
Eliminate that arc in, in a
60 feet of, uh, of workshop
bench or check in the tides
to see what time I should
do I need to be out at five
or, or, or, or six 15 to go
hit some fish this morning.
Here's where the payoff
is for work though.
I actually sleep, so that's one.
But when I get up and I get
ready to work, my mind is clear.
Yeah.
Right, exactly.
I don't feel like shit.
Right.
I don't feel burnt out.
I can't wait to start work.
Yeah.
It's so counterintuitive.
It's literally the
opposite of burnout.
It's so counterintuitive.
But let's, let's talk about
that for a second, because
I think that there's also
this notion that like,
could this just become
like double burnout, right?
Am I just gonna double
the, the rate of my burnout
because I'm now spending
energy in this other way?
You know?
And are we, are we actually
solving something here?
Or are we just transferring
this obsession from one
thing to another without
solving the root problem?
Is this just a coping mechanism?
Does it matter?
So I, I think these are
the questions that people
are probably asking.
I think you and I have
answers to them, mostly
through experience.
'cause I certainly haven't
thought specifically about that.
Like, is this actually the
healthiest way of doing this?
It's the way that
works.
I can say that.
Yeah, there's no question.
Right?
Here's here's why it's
been healthy for me, okay?
Uh, this past weekend, you
know, I'm installing all
those crazy heavy, uh, benches
that we were putting in.
Those things are like the
size of each one's, the size
of a refrigerator and we're
installing 10 of them, and,
and they're heavy and I'm
moving all those things around.
They're heavy as hell.
Every single muscle in my
body is screaming by the
end of the day Sunday.
And I think to myself, all
I want to do tomorrow is
not lift heavy shit Uhhuh.
And go work on
launching our product.
Yes.
See, that's what I'm saying.
That's it.
Like it's the first time I found
a way to come off the field
actually recharge and go back.
Now a lot of people look at say,
wait, aren't you super tired?
Yes.
I sleep like a baby and I
wake up the next morning.
I don't have to
lift a goddamn thing
uhhuh.
So like that's not
my problem anymore.
Right?
Yep.
My problem was when I spent
all weekend obsessing over
stupid stuff I couldn't fix.
Yep.
And then Monday I wake up
and get this, I'm like.
I need to work on,
uh, stupid stuff.
I can't fix.
See, like I, I've been
wallowing in the problem the
whole time instead, instead
of, without doing anybody
disconnecting from it.
Yeah.
I I never came off the field.
That's why I was so burnt out.
You know, it's funny, I
had an example of this
at a friend of mine.
Uh, we went through a business
school together and he, he
went off, eventually made
it over to, to Wall Street
and then quit Wall Street
and became a day trader.
This guy just could
never put it down.
There's also nothing you can
do on Saturday or Sunday or
after four 30, but he would
obsess and worry and wait and
worry and wait, and I'm like,
dude, you literally actually
can't do anything until Monday.
Right?
The analysis is done.
You're just waiting to see what
happens, to know whether you're
gonna buy or, and just it was,
it was the same kind of thing.
We're just like, he just
wouldn't ever switch
off at a point where he
absolutely had no ability
to, to change the outcome.
It just hated him constantly.
Let's stick with that 'cause
I, I, I, I really wanna
dig into that for a second.
If we give ourselves in a
given week, Uhhuh, let's say 40
hours to worry about something.
And I'm not saying the part
of doing anything, I'm saying
literally just worrying about it
in some form or another, right?
Whether it's between slack
chats, um, you're journaling
to yourself, you're talking to
your friends, you're complaining
to your spouse, like you name
it, whatever, whatever your
version of how you express
bullshit, you know, worry is,
let's say you spend 40 hours a
week doing it, it's because you
had 40 hours available to do it.
But the actual fixing
of the problem doesn't
take any amount of time.
Like if, if you and I are
worried about, let's say that
we're trying to raise more money
and we're worried about running
outta money, yeah, we're gonna
spend so much time worrying.
But the amount of time it
takes to do something about
it still may be a fair amount.
We've exhausted so much,
so much time, energy.
Yep.
In worrying.
Okay.
Now what I did was I took all
the time that I was otherwise
gonna be worrying and I
did something else with it.
That's it.
That's all I did.
Yep.
I just took my worry time
and put it into something
that was easy to worry about.
Like, like when you come into
the workshop and you and I were
working on something, I think
we were building drawers, you
know, that time before that.
And I'm like, we just have to
make sure that this rabbit joint
is exactly five days, inches.
So it, it, that's it.
It's all we have to worry about.
Well, we had to figure and
not cutting your fingers off.
It's beautiful
because it's so dumb.
Yeah, right.
And I mean dumb in a good way.
It's simple and it's obvious
and it's achievable
exactly When we're done with it
and it's
immediate, nearly
immediate, we just have
this, this beautiful outcome,
but it's also meaningful.
I think that's the thing.
Yeah, absolutely.
You can't just cumulative,
can't just pick dumb rote work.
Like it's the kinda like, oh,
well what a crossword work.
Uh, maybe for
somebody, not for me.
Right?
I'm just like, every, every word
just prompts another thought.
So yeah, I think that it,
it does need to have like
some meaning again, a sense
of completion, but sense
of completion of something
maybe with some permanence.
I'm trying to think of this
now, this, so with things
that I've done that gave me
some of this catharsis, I'm
trying to think of any of them.
Weren't somehow memorialized.
Let's dig into, in, into
Juujitsu, you were leveling up.
You, you were learning moves,
techniques, uh, things that
you didn't know before.
You had a clear
sense of progression.
Yeah.
So maybe the memorialization,
maybe the finality isn't
necessarily it as much as it is
that, that sense of progression.
I think the sense of progression
was definitely there, there
is absolutely no sense of
of of finality because each,
each role, each scenario
presents something different.
Right,
you bet.
Which is what makes it exciting.
Yeah.
But, but knowing like, like
when you play soccer knowing
that you won the game.
Yeah.
Again, it goes back
to, to milestone.
Yeah.
But, but it, it, it's a true
sense of accomplishment.
You know, when you'd come
with me to play, uh, hockey
and, and, and we played over
another founder's house, you
know, built a hockey rink
in his backyard, and I, I
would tell you, I was like.
I don't actually care
about winning that game.
Yeah.
Because it's just my friends
and I, and we switch teams
like every other game.
So like the people you're
playing against, you're playing
with in the, in the next round.
But holy cow, I like to win.
And, and when I say that, not
like, uh, because I beat the
other team, nothing like that.
No.
It just feels like
I did something.
Yeah.
You, you did the best you
could at that moment, right?
You,
yeah.
Also, if I lose, I
kind of don't care.
Like there's just
no consequence.
But if I have a great shot
or, or if I have a hat trick,
like in whatever I'm like.
I feel freaking great about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's weird because I know
there's no consequence to
this, but I also know that
like mentally I needed a win.
I, I needed a milestone.
I needed, you know, a level up.
And I think what, what you were
saying, 'cause you said this to
me when you were in town last
time when we were working on
that workshop, you said, well,
it's really cool that what we're
building will be here forever.
Yeah.
You know, when, when we build
this workbench, whatever, I
know you'll be working at it
all the time and I, I know that
like, you know, you'll pass
this to your kids, so to speak.
Yeah.
Gimme a lot of joy to think
about the fact that like, we're
building something that you're
gonna use to build a bunch
of other stuff that will go
on and have their, it's it's
funny, it's, it's amazing.
It, it's, it's almost a perfect
metaphor for what we're building
with startups.com, right?
We're building the work.
I better all the time,
time's gonna help.
To build a bunch of other
businesses and people to
go and do their thing.
Right, which is,
you bet.
It has an exponential factor.
What's interesting about
it to me is that, yes, I'm
building an entire house with
my free time, so to speak.
I know, I know.
That sounds.
Bananas And it is, and I'm
not suggesting do that, right?
Yeah, yeah.
For me, specifically for my
personality, in order to achieve
what I needed to achieve,
which is to find a different
way to channel my obsession,
it had to look like that.
I didn't know that.
I didn't like set
out to do that.
Frankly, it ballooned on
me, but it worked really
well, like freakishly well.
And now when I talk to
other founders, right, I'm
finding more and more of them
that do have an obsession.
That have an amazing amount
of peace that comes with it,
where they're like, when I'm
doing that, I am in my zone.
I'm in my Z. Yeah.
Stick.
Stick on this for a second
because I think there's
a misconception that this
is a thing that comes
as you achieve a certain
level within your startup.
I. Where you're now allowed
to have this other thing and
you are already feeling very
fulfilled with your startup, and
then you added this other thing.
I think if we were to do some
sort of dissection on any one
of these, the vast likelihood is
that they feel that way because
they started the side hustle.
They, they, they achieved
both together, not.
One because of the other.
It wasn't causal.
It wasn't because I
achieved success in startup.
I was able to go pick up
this, this side hustle that
gives me all this zen, uh,
happiness, not the case.
And again, I think I needed to
see the other side of it, see
how, how, how these other things
did not work for me in order to
have the appreciation that I do.
That this other obsession is,
is something that, that I've
needed mentally and emotionally.
Sure.
For decades.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I just didn't know it.
And I gotta say, the more
overwhelming it got, and I know
overwhelming strikes, fear into
people's hearts, and I get that.
I understand why.
But the more overwhelming it
got, the more I enjoyed it.
Right.
At which point I was like,
fuck it, I'm gonna build
everything in this house myself.
Yeah.
And I remember my, my, uh, my
contractor who, you know, has
been helping me through this
is like, what do you mean?
Like, you, you're gonna build
like a table or something?
I'm like, no, I'm, I'm gonna
literally build everything,
every kitchen cabinet, every
vanity, every closet, every
cubby, every everything.
And he is like, when are
you going to do that?
I'm like, I have no idea.
Yeah, actually don't know yet.
And then, uh, I picked
up another habit.
This is maybe four or five years
ago, and you and I have talked
about this on, on the podcast
in our early podcast, actually
about one pebble at a time.
Yeah.
The way you move mountains
is one pebble at a time.
Yeah.
So I started to apply that
so like, you know, this
morning I get up right.
You know, crazy
early that, that.
Just happens to be my schedule.
But I go into my workshop and
I have exactly one hour worth
of work to do today involved
sanding and, and applying poly.
So it just needed to
dry, so I couldn't
So you decided, you decided
to do that and you're, you're
taking the, the original
finish off all those tops?
Yeah.
I ended up getting, you know,
for, for those in the audience
that absolutely don't care, I
ended up getting 60 feet worth
of butcher block countertops
that were all stained espresso
happy accident this weekend
that I texted you and, and
showed you the picture.
Yep.
I happened to take
a bunch of this.
The stain off by accident of
one of the countertops and lo
and behold, the, the wood below,
it was way more beautiful.
And I was like, God damnit.
Yeah.
It's like the one time I
buy pre-finished, I end up
taking all the finish off it.
Yeah.
I have to take all the
finish off all of 'em.
So that's what I was doing,
that five in the morning.
I do it in just little chunks.
If I said, oh my God, I have
to do the whole thing, I look
at it and I say, no, I have to
do an an hour a day, two hours
a day, depending on, you know,
how much time I have in the
morning and all that adds up.
All that adds up.
Remember when we went to
the storage container?
Yeah.
Where all this stuff
is sitting, all this
stuff flat packed and Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, so everything I've built,
like the entire kitchen, I
would build it like every
cabinet, every everything.
And then take the
whole thing apart.
Flat pack it, wrap it in,
in, uh, in bubble wrap
and store it like Tetris
Te Tetris is exactly what
it looks like, except
that it's, it's, uh,
three dimensional Tetris.
It's three dimensional Tetris.
It also weighs
hundreds of pounds.
Yeah.
Which we also discovered.
My point is every single
thing in there that's
stacked in there Yep.
Was an hour worth of work.
Yeah.
Compounded over a long enough
period of time, which like,
it's an important piece because
I, you, you said it earlier,
which was like, well, what
can you actually get done
in an hour or two hours?
Turns out a lot, but there's,
there's two pieces to that.
You can actually get a lot done,
but if you really feel that
that's true, if you're saying
like, what could you actually
get done in, in an hour or two?
Then you can easily
reverse that same logic and
say, well, what were you
gonna do with it anyways?
If you can't get anything
done in that hour or two,
why were you gonna spend
it worrying or working when
you could have spent it
doing something else that
might actually recharge you?
Right.
So it's funny that so often, uh,
the, the, the pushback that we
provide, the reason why we can't
do a thing is exactly the reason
that we could also do the thing.
Right.
You know, uh, a perfect example
like the visual metaphor.
Ryan, you know how the
downstairs in my theater,
I've got all those DVDs?
Yes.
Like a thousand DVDs
from backing DVDs.
A thing.
Yeah.
You, you look like, you
look like what happened
when Blockbuster closed.
But I remember sitting there
one day and, and, and I'm
looking at all these DVDs
and, and my daughter was there
and she was like, dad, have
you watched all these movies?
Because remember like
anymore, like a kid doesn't
physically see movies or
media for that matter, right?
And I was like, you know, some.
I did, and all I can think to
myself is how much I could have
gotten done in this time if
I wasn't watching Bubble Boy
man,
it's funny, I have this, I
have this, however, right?
I have this thought
a lot because as you
know, I'm not much of a
media or TV guy, right?
I just, I don't know.
The last time I watched
Netflix, there are times
where when people are
talking about something,
like, it was like, oh, black
Mirror is made for you.
You're gonna love this.
And I think like I, you know,
and I, I hear people talking
about the episodes discussing.
There are times where I
feel a little left out.
Yeah, I get it.
I feel a little left out and
then I think about, I'm like,
these people are talking about
something that in order to
have this discussion, they
invested 40 hours plus of
their time each, and that's
where I go, you know what?
I'm good.
I'm good.
I, I probably spent
that on, on something
significantly more important.
Like mileage will vary.
Of course.
The other thing I wanted to, to
talk about was this, this notion
where you said that like the,
the more overwhelming it became.
More valuable became for you?
It had consequence.
There's, there's a consequence
and there's also, there's
something about like, I think
this is where we said it in,
in a couple different ways,
and I think one of the, maybe
the nuance points that we
missed was when we said like,
it needs to be big enough.
It needs to be big enough
and important enough
that it also eliminates,
basically squeezes out.
Like eliminates sucks up all
that air that you would've
otherwise spent worrying.
For me, it, it's funny
we're, you know, as, as
you know, we're, we're
traveling right now.
We were in Ohio with my parents.
We're now in in Florida
with my wife's parents,
but we're through lots
of strange circumstances.
There is a bunch of my parents'
stuff and I was going through
some of this old memorabilia
and it forced me to revisit a
couple periods in my life that
were absolutely overwhelming.
They were some of the most
productive periods, like
in in, in youth, right?
Like, so there was this, we
discovered all of these merit
honor roll, uh, certificates,
the, you know, uh, Allstate
first team notifications
for, for sport and this
other law in the Constitution
conference that I attended.
It was all like the same time
period, and I was going, my
God, I was doing a lot of
stuff and I was excelling
and thriving at all of it.
Why?
Because it was so divergent.
It was so different that it
gave me that level of catharsis,
but it also squeezed out any
time to do anything other than
do this stuff didn't leave me
any time to worry about it.
I couldn't worry about my
soccer performance because
the minute I was done with
soccer, I had to, I was, I was
off studying for something.
I was, I was, you know,
going up to, uh, Ohio State
to, to, you know, take part
in an academic conference
doing something right.
And so it was those
periods where it was
totally overwhelmed.
I think I've shared this
one on the podcast before.
But it was those, the, the, the
period in university at which
I had started the business,
so running the company, I had
a full load at Ohio State.
I had a couple of weird
electives that they wouldn't let
me take because I was already
over my credit hours and so
I, I went to another local
university and signed up to take
these transferable credits that
didn't matter to me anyways.
They were just elective
classes and so I was completely
over, literally overloaded
with the schedule, like
beyond what was allowable
to take at one university.
So I took it a second.
And running the business
at the same time, and I had
some of my best grades ever.
I had fantastic performance
in the business.
Why?
I didn't have time to
think or worry about shit.
It was, I was either asleep
and, and completely soaking
up the, the needed rest or I
was on something, but things
that I cared about, not
things that I was just thrown
into or had to do, right.
Things that I, that
legitimately mattered to
me, that I was engaged in,
that gave me very different
types of outlets for, for all
that energy.
You bet.
And it, it doesn't have to
be something that is like.
A job.
Right.
You know, I'm doing
something that's very
physical and that's fine.
That just happens to
be what my thing is.
You could just put that
energy anywhere else.
Right.
In a way it has to be in, in, in
my mind for me, I, I, this, I'm
not speaking for anybody else.
It, it has to be challenging.
There has to be a
mental challenge to it.
If you take out the mental
challenge to it, or in some
cases the physical challenge
to it, the challenge in
general, it actually doesn't
interest me in a perfect
metaphor for that, Ryan.
Is, you know, as you know,
I love to play video games,
but the moment in the game,
no matter what game it is,
that I know that I've got
the most powerful weapon
or I've got, you know, the
best armor or like, I'm just
gonna mow over everything.
Yep.
I absolutely lose interest.
Yeah.
And that's what always
killed me, an Assassin's
Creed, because it's such
a big, long game Uhhuh.
But I would grind like
nonstop in order to get
like way ahead of where
I should be in the game.
Yep.
And then the moment I got
there, I could just take
out everybody immediately.
Everybody.
Yeah.
I was, I was like, I don't care
how this game is, I. Boring now.
There's no sense of progression.
Yeah.
I took the challenge out of it.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, and, and now it's funny,
when I play something, I'm
very mindful to try to like
do what I enjoy doing, which
is like gaming the game,
uhhuh, but also not do it
so that I, I can never see.
Yeah.
It's like now
I've just, I've ruined
this for myself again.
What's interesting though
is I, I, I don't think that
for some of us, what we're
looking for is the opportunity
to quote rest, like, you
know, put our brains to rest.
Like, and for some people
it works great and, and
you know, God bless you.
But for most of us, for most
of us that have this, this
obsessive mind that cannot
stop, that is gonna be up every
morning at 3:00 AM grinding on
something, we gotta feed it.
We gotta feed that with
something that has the
same type of challenge
that got us grinding on
the, in the first place.
Yeah.
So yes, it's something
overwhelming.
Yes, it's something that's
gonna challenge us even more.
Some stress us out in
its own way, and maybe
that's a good thing.
But the truth is we have to find
outside interests that consume
us because it's the only way
for people like us that will
ever actually get the rest that
we need and how we recharge
to go build something amazing.
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone.
You don't have to, and honestly,
you shouldn't because instead,
you can learn directly from
peers who've been in your shoes.
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors
helping them win in the
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Check out the startups.com
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