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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript
Welcome to the mortis story, podcast I'm, so glad you have come along. And this is an exciting show for me. Come interviewing a friend. It's been a friend for a long time, and I'm excited about the types of things that he is. Gonna talk about. I think if you listen closely it will transform. I I'm using that word transform. I mean it
Andy Miller III: transform your ministry. It'll be something that will be incredibly helpful to you to think about the way we communicate and the way we communicate the eternal truths of the Gospel. So
Andy Miller III: I'm looking forward to introducing him in just a second. But first, let me let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. And my guest today is a graduate of our institution. And we're at this really exciting point in the life of Wbs, as we've just added more than 300 global Methodist church pastors who are in a course of study program. In addition to a hundred 80 other students
Andy Miller III: who are part of our regular academic programs from bachelors and masters to doctoral degrees. We all have the lay initiatives. We'd love for you to check out the things that we're doing here at Wesley Biblical Seminary, Wbs. Edu. Also my friend Keith Waters runs a company called Waters Development, and they go all around the country all around the world really, and help groups with capital campaigns, feasibility studies, mission planning studies.
Andy Miller III: I've worked with them in the past. They've led like units that I have led through successful capital campaigns. I would love for you to check them out if you're in a place where you're trying to figure out where you're gonna go. Next. Part of the thing that they can do for you is really just help you figure out that plan for how, for where you want to go, so that then you can figure out how you're gonna get there so you can find out more about them at Wpo Development, and there's a link to them in my show notes.
Andy Miller III: Oh, well, I'm gonna ask Jeff to edit that out, because
Andy Miller III: all of a sudden my phone started going off. Okay, there you go.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Andy Miller III: Well, thankfully, I got that. I got that in. And all right, Jeff, here we come, and in 3, 2, one.
Andy Miller III: And now I'm thrilled to bring into podcast my friend, Dr. Billy Coppitch, who is the morality, catalyst for the World Gospel Mission, and he is been, this is his areas expert. We went to college together. We sat in classes together, Billy welcome to the podcast.
Billy Coppedge: Thank you, Andy. It's fun to be here.
Andy Miller III: Now, I had you on in a former iteration of this, podcast when it's called Captain's corner back. When I didn't have any any video. You remember, we sat back down to Indian Springs, and we recorded that.
Billy Coppedge: I do, I do. That's fun!
Andy Miller III: You're one of the very first guests, one of the very first guests I had. I lined up. I think I had you, Tim tenant Chris bounds all kind of lined up. We went into the prayer room at Indian Springs, and did that, so.
Billy Coppedge: That's awesome. That was a lot of fun.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, it was. And and it's great to see all that all God's doing through you. I mean, it's interesting. You just tell us a little bit of your story, and how you arrived at emphasizing this discipline of orality, and then we'll have like talk about what it is, but part of like how you got there was in part your your work post seminary. Is that right?
Billy Coppedge: Yeah, no, exactly. Andy, thank you for asking. It's it's it's a fun journey. And so we graduated from Wesley in 2,006, and I say we, Joanna's my wife, and at the time we we finished. We actually got to go to Wesley together, which was a miracle
Billy Coppedge: and really special. So we went with World Gospel Mission to Uganda. And really, Uganda has played a major part in our story, even from right. When we got married we kind of went to Ug. Went to Wesley, and we were just gonna be there one year, and then we were going to work with a church.
Billy Coppedge: It's interesting, Andy. You remember Dr. Cochrall.
Andy Miller III: Oh, yeah. Yep.
Billy Coppedge: He challenged us. He was like, if you leave without a degree from Wesley, you're gonna be in trouble. That he said. Africa. They respect age and education, and if you leave without a degree, you're not gonna have either.
Andy Miller III: Wow! Was there a temptation for you to leave early.
Billy Coppedge: Yeah, we really did. We thought we were like, Hey, we're gonna get in here. We're gonna get a a Bill Yuri systematics class. And you know, whatever else. Take a couple of these, take a John Oswald, Old Testament, and then that'll be kind of in our pocket, and we'll come back and do something later. If we want.
Andy Miller III: Wow, that's.
Billy Coppedge: So we really were just gonna be there for a year, and we stayed 3 and a half.
Andy Miller III: Ha!
Billy Coppedge: So, but I'm so glad we did. It was so good for us, and we're forever indebted to Wes. Well indebted to Jesus for Wesley.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Same. Man, yeah.
Billy Coppedge: Or Wesley's investment in our life.
Billy Coppedge: One of the things that when we got to Uganda we got involved in disciple making and and training pastors.
Billy Coppedge: Which was, that is another story. But we found right away there were people from for whom the the black ink on the white page was a problem.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: It wasn't. It wasn't a matter of intelligence. It wasn't even a matter of motivation or desire. In some cases it wasn't even a matter of schooling, so the folks had been school. They even they could read and write although not all of them.
Billy Coppedge: But for many people it was just the way we were kind of synthesizing, putting information together. We were constructing it in ways that they were not familiar with or that weren't. They? Weren't
Billy Coppedge: they weren't used to. And so we began to say, Hey, there has to be other ways to communicate God's word and you know I had. I had great lecture notes from all my lessons at Wesley, and so I thought, surely this is this is.
Andy Miller III: Like.
Billy Coppedge: And and it, and in some ways it was at least the heart behind that, and certainly they.
Andy Miller III: Cried.
Billy Coppedge: Valuable. But what we needed was a way to engage Scripture that was accessible for people.
Billy Coppedge: for whom? The Literate text was a barrier, and that was kind of the beginning of the journey for us was, we began to realize, oh, there are people in the world actually quite a swath of people for whom literate tools are actually prohibitive.
Andy Miller III: Hmm! It.
Billy Coppedge: And I say, prohibitive. That's almost too strong, although that probably we need to inner. We could reiterate that. But they're just not preferred. We talk about this, we talk about primary orality, people who can't read or write at all, who are completely relying on the spoken word. But then we also talk about secondary orality, and these are people that they can read and write, but their degree of oral reliance is still high, and they prefer to rely on the spoken word, the embodied word.
Billy Coppedge: And and I I think, Andy, in some ways that began the journey of just trying to say.
Billy Coppedge: oh, how do we communicate God's Word to how, if if we join? And I really felt convinced partly, and do from our experience at Wesley.
Billy Coppedge: transfer the primary way God brings about transformation. The human heart is engaging God's word.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: Like. If if we can get people in the word, then that actually, that's where he uses dreams, he uses experiences. He uses other people all of those things, yes, and more creation.
Billy Coppedge: But the primary way is Scripture. And so then the question was, is, okay.
Billy Coppedge: what do we do for all the people for
Billy Coppedge: textual tools are problematic. And that began a great journey of us, exploring, beginning to go, orality, beginning to kind of discover the beauty and the power of oral tools.
Billy Coppedge: Things like song things like the arts drama. It's interesting riddles.
Billy Coppedge: And and for us the biggest one has been storytelling. And really, all of those hinge story is a way of formatting, you know. In some ways I can tell a story, and that's kind of a method of communicating.
Billy Coppedge: But it's also a way of organizing content or information. So instead of using my propositions.
Billy Coppedge: I'm I'm creating a narrative, or I'm telling a narrative. And
Billy Coppedge: it's interesting how highly oral
Billy Coppedge: people we're highly oral, reliant people.
Billy Coppedge: Narrative becomes such a powerful tool.
Billy Coppedge: I don't know. Andy, does that make sense? Yeah.
Andy Miller III: No, this is helpful. When you were in Uganda, and as you're working through this, you just came to the reality like hitting a wall, almost realizing
Andy Miller III: what I'm doing isn't working. So I need to change this, did you? When did you come in contact with I forgive me if I'm not using the right words orality as a discipline.
Billy Coppedge: Sure. Yeah, totally. So I got introduced our organization, W. Jim, kind of our regional leadership, asking to go check out a workshop on Biblical orality or oral Bible storytelling in Nairobi.
Billy Coppedge: And it was kind of like.
Billy Coppedge: okay, I just graduated with a Wesley degree.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Billy Coppedge: In my mind it was like storytelling is good for children's ministry, but I wanna do. Robust, you know, kind of theological education like I've just had it, Wesley, like, that's what I'm supposed to do.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: Really storytelling like. Doesn't that seem kind of? I don't know.
Billy Coppedge: childish or I don't. And so there was a certain curiosity, no doubt, but it's funny I got in there. And
Billy Coppedge: the very first story
Billy Coppedge: that the facilitator stood up and told
Billy Coppedge: was just incredible. It just it opened me wide.
Billy Coppedge: can I? Can I just.
Andy Miller III: You wanna do it?
Billy Coppedge: Where? Yeah, can I just tell you.
Andy Miller III: Oh, I do it. Yeah, yeah. Great.
Billy Coppedge: So this is one you may have heard me do even, Andy, but it's it's one I just recently retold because it has been relevant for me yet again.
Billy Coppedge: So you need to know. Jesus has just encountered the lawyer who asks him about eternal life.
Billy Coppedge: and Jesus. You know they have a whole conversation, and he ends up with a good Samaritan story.
Billy Coppedge: So that literally, that's the that's the for that's what's just happened. We pick up the story right after that. And it's a true story. It comes from God's Word. It goes like this.
Billy Coppedge: As they continue.
Billy Coppedge: They came to a certain village, and there was there a woman named Martha.
Billy Coppedge: who welcomed Jesus into her home.
Billy Coppedge: Now Martha had a sister named Mary.
Billy Coppedge: who sat
Billy Coppedge: at his feet listening to his words.
Billy Coppedge: Martha was busy with many preparations, and she came to Jesus, and she said, Lord.
Billy Coppedge: don't you care that my sister has left me to do all the work.
Billy Coppedge: Tell her to come and help me.
Billy Coppedge: And Jesus replied and said, Martha.
Billy Coppedge: Martha.
Billy Coppedge: you
Billy Coppedge: are busy with many preparations.
Billy Coppedge: Mary has chosen what is good.
Billy Coppedge: and it will not be taken from her.
Billy Coppedge: And that's the end of the story.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: From the end of the end of a loop. Chapter 10.
Billy Coppedge: Andy, we that's you know. We've all heard that story so many times.
Billy Coppedge: but I've been intrigued recently
Billy Coppedge: by the fact that Martha invited Jesus into her home.
Billy Coppedge: And this is part of our story. We were in Israel last year.
Andy Miller III: Bless you!
Billy Coppedge: And ended up choosing to evacuate because of the war. And so we have lived a very nomadic last 7 months. We have a home. It's just in Jerusalem.
Billy Coppedge: So it's interesting. The concept of home is very significant. And it's hearing this story again kind of captured my imagination. I just, was reminded. Martha is inviting Jesus into her home.
Billy Coppedge: and then Jesus, he abides in her home.
Billy Coppedge: We I just am like, Oh, that you're getting right up against ultimate reality right there in that little 3, 4 verse story.
Andy Miller III: Of.
Billy Coppedge: Jesus entering into the home
Billy Coppedge: of a family.
Billy Coppedge: And I I just thought, Oh, that! That's there's a lot of reality in those little 3, 4 verses, and most of us kind of skip past that. And you know well, I'm a Martha, and I'm trying to get stuff done for the.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Billy Coppedge: Or I feel guilty because I haven't Sabbath better.
Billy Coppedge: But I wonder if story provides an opportunity.
Billy Coppedge: There's layers of meaning and story. And Andy. This has been one of our joys as we've gotten more and more involved in.
Billy Coppedge: And from that very first training in Nairobi, you know that kind of we, I realized quite a way, this is part of who I am. I'm a student.
Andy Miller III: Wow!
Billy Coppedge: And and then and then real began that kind of started a journey we got. I went to a number of trainings, got more equipped. Then we began to do trainings in Uganda, and it kind of developed from there.
Billy Coppedge: But beginning to kind of see, one of the advantages of discovering it in Uganda was so much of
Billy Coppedge: so much of culture. You know we were out of our home culture, our passport culture.
Billy Coppedge: so much of culture, is highly oral. It's embodied.
Andy Miller III: Meeting. Hmm.
Billy Coppedge: Carried. Culture is so often carried through oral means or embody.
Billy Coppedge: And and whether it's whether it's dance or whether it's food or whether it's, you know, whatever it is it's like, and and not all of that is oral in a spoken sense, but so often it is oral in the embodied sense, it relies on the body.
Andy Miller III: You know.
Billy Coppedge: It, or the way I stand, or the clothes I'm wearing. All of that is communicating something in a nonverbal sort of way.
Billy Coppedge: And and so that began to kind of resonate, we began to say, Oh, this is more than just a
Billy Coppedge: a utilitarian use of storytelling. There's actually something deeper here, and it's been the joy of kind of over the last. However, many years it's been of kind of pressing into orality as a discipline, but also trying to better understand a theology of communication.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: At the end of the day. What we're talking about is
Billy Coppedge: we're made in the you're talking about personhood. We're made in the image of
Billy Coppedge: people.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Billy Coppedge: Communicate. And why do we communicate? Is we communicate?
Billy Coppedge: Because we're made the image of a communicating gone.
Andy Miller III: Right! Amen! Amen!
Billy Coppedge: So so in that sense, you can look at orality from from just a communication perspective. You can look at orality from you know this, it can be a sub sub category of anthropology. It can be a sub category of sociology. It could be a sub category of you know of. Homoletics, you know. You could take orality.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Billy Coppedge: For direct a lot of different directions. So there's a sense in which it's an in and of itself it's very interdisciplinary.
Billy Coppedge: I think, when we're talking about it here, we're trying to draw on a lot of those threads, but bringing it together hopefully.
Billy Coppedge: trying to begin to push into what does a theology of communication look like?
Billy Coppedge: Be interesting to ask. You know, if I went to the website at Wbs, could I find, you know, just on what do we believe? And you know.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Billy Coppedge: But I find a theology of communication.
Andy Miller III: Probably not. No, no, yeah.
Billy Coppedge: But, Andy, I haven't found a church that has one of those.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, interesting. No, that's a good point.
Billy Coppedge: To think through.
Andy Miller III: Now, I like to think in my preaching class, it is in my first lecture, but beyond that it's not okay. Yeah. I.
Billy Coppedge: I want.
Andy Miller III: I I do not like the I like to say. I like to say that that's a part of my first, but I mean I'm sure it's not to the same if the same depths that you're you're describing here. So I like, I recognize that challenge in that that there's a the whole way. When you think of this, I'm reminded of in that same year that you went to that training, or when you guys went and 2,006. Abby and I had a similar story with seminary. Together we finish, up we went, and we served
Andy Miller III: one church for 6 months, 5 or 6 months in an interim basis, and I remember I was there on a Good Friday. We had an ecumenical service, and it happened to be in a Pentecostal Church, and I would. We are really glad to be in that situation. But there was a the preacher got on a certain rhythm where he was saying the same words over and over again. It was beautiful, and and
Andy Miller III: he's emphasizing the importance of reading God's words. So he says, why, why are do we have violence in the street cause people don't read their Bibles. Why do we have parents not taking care of their children? Because people aren't reading their Bibles, he went on. I mean, this list was going on and on, and the last one, I think he realized it when he said it, and he says, Why do we have illiterate kids? Because they don't read their Bibles.
Andy Miller III: hey? Why are they illiterate
Andy Miller III: cause? They don't read their Bibles like, Wait! Oh, hold on a second hold!
Andy Miller III: If they're illiterate, they can't read their Bibles right? And so.
Billy Coppedge: Yes.
Andy Miller III: Actually I I remember this moment like it was. It was a smaller sanctuary, and I I remember his hand coming down hard, like right on top of the pulpit, and as he said it, I think he realized what he had just said, and to my, you know, I'll admit I have had those exact same moments in preaching and teaching as well like. Wait a second. That doesn't quite make sense.
Billy Coppedge: It's not connected.
Andy Miller III: So so if we have this basic function like of that you, you've indicated like, there are so many people in the world that only, like you said they're they're primarily oral communicators. But in the secondary side, like Billiac, how many people in the world would even prefer
Andy Miller III: to hear a story, hear presentations as opposed to those who would rather read.
Billy Coppedge: It's interesting, Andy, they will say. And again, it depends. And this is a lot of folks you look back for for a while the International or Outdoor Network was publishing a journal, the Orality Journal, and they've got some great articles on this. And but they I think it's that'd be 10 years old. So 2,012,
Billy Coppedge: Grant Lovejoy did an article, and his estimation at that point was 80% of the word.
Andy Miller III: Hmm, wow, 80%.
Billy Coppedge: Yeah, it doesn't mean 80% can't read.
Billy Coppedge: It means that if given the option of how do they want to engage.
Andy Miller III: Right? No. Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: How do they? And and by that I just mean, like, how do they take it in? How do they process it? How do they remember it. And then how do they kind of pass it on?
Billy Coppedge: It's like 80% would prefer to do it orally than textually.
Billy Coppedge: And I
Billy Coppedge: I don't know that I have found to be.
Billy Coppedge: It's interesting, and I think going back to how often times people enjoy
Billy Coppedge: listening to a story. I wonder if in some ways that's part of why audible is so popular these days.
Andy Miller III: Interesting.
Billy Coppedge: Many among many groups, not all of them, but among many groups.
Billy Coppedge: is, it's like, Oh, there's something inherently oral in all of us.
Billy Coppedge: and I, Andy, I wonder if to this is part of our in our educational pattern. So oftentimes, you know, it's like we kind of propositionalize, you know, truth, and the advantage of that is, you kind of distill a lot of ideas down, and then it kind of makes it memorable, and we use alliteration to kind of help folks, and
Billy Coppedge: and and there's value in that for sure.
Billy Coppedge: I wonder it's interesting, though, if we were to go back and take Jesus as the model. You know. There are times when he's doing some of that, like you see in the beat attitudes where he's kind of bringing a lot of teaching down and kind of pulling, in a sense, if I could say almost bullet points. Bless it, bless it, bless it! Are those you know, whatever it is you've heard it said, I tell you.
Billy Coppedge: but even in that there's something oralized, and then that's and then, if you turn the page and you look at how often he turns to parable, how often he turns to story the one the story we just mentioned. But Matthew, Mary, and Martha.
Billy Coppedge: the. It's interesting how he dialogues with the lawyer on a high literate, propositional love. God love your neighbor kind of level. But then, as the conversation shifts, he pivots, and he turns to narrative.
Billy Coppedge: And it's interesting how powerful that is. And yeah, I wonder if that's some of the the challenge for us who are.
Billy Coppedge: whether we're missionaries or pastors, or
Billy Coppedge: or whether we're just moms and dads trying to disciple our kids and love our neighbors.
Billy Coppedge: It's how do I? How do I get better at telling God's story?
Billy Coppedge: At some level. Some of that's just how do I get better to tell stories from my own experience or my own testimony?
Billy Coppedge: but I'm not as interested in like, how do I become kind of a Kentucky story, you know, from the hills of Kentucky, you know.
Billy Coppedge: storyteller.
Billy Coppedge: because the goal is not for me to become a better story to a teller. The goal is for me to communicate in a way for people to encounter God.
Andy Miller III: That's right.
Billy Coppedge: Now the beauty of it is, and you and I know some people that tell stories from Eastern Kentucky, and it changes people's lives.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: And and and you can see how God brings that together.
Billy Coppedge: But what I'm trying to say is the goal isn't for me to be a better storyteller. The goal is for me to say, what do I need to do
Billy Coppedge: to be like Jesus in this community, in this community or cultural context. And and for most of our people
Billy Coppedge: today.
Billy Coppedge: they're doing less and less propositional engagement. They're doing a lot more
Billy Coppedge: visual, imaginative. And I'd say, narrative based engagement.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, interesting. You've mentioned it several times now, the idea of propositional. You know that propositional engagement, and I know I know you well enough to know we've had these talks. So I'm gonna just give you opportunity to respond to an emphasis within the
Andy Miller III: Homological Society. The Homiletical Academy. There's a obviously a big push for narrative preaching, narrative, storytelling. A lot of this is dependent upon what is sometimes called the Yale School.
Andy Miller III: oh, the George Lineback. People like that. And then that influence somebody like Stanley Hower was where they might emphasize story to a certain degree, so much so that like it's the story, the idea of the story that matters. It's the
Andy Miller III: the truth of the story, absent though, and and some of these traditions, and certainly like in some of the liberal prospective, you know, post Liberalism sometimes like the lineback type perspective that she's let's say, the nature of doctrine. I can't seem thinking the name of that famous book, but
Andy Miller III: but it's absent of his in historical reality. And so propositional truth is set up as the Boogie man, so to speak and like, let's just knock that down. Every everybody's like wanting to master knowledge. Act like we know all things. And and I'm I'm okay with, like I, I love the emphasis of of narrative and story communicating, connecting with people. But also I don't wanna lose history. And I don't. Wanna you and I know you don't either. So
Andy Miller III: how does the kind of that post liberal emphasis make its way into some of the things that you're saying, in in the discipline of orality.
Billy Coppedge: A 100%. And I, there's no doubt that those guys have influenced. They kind of open the door. That, and then kind of post modern, the early, you know, in the early stages of post modernism there was kind of this flattening, this leveling, so to speak, and then it kind of OP. Created an opportunity for narrative to kind of blossom and for attention around narrative. But, Andy, I'd 100% agree with you. You end up with story being kind of almost unfettered from.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: Historical reality. And for those guys they would tell the Biblical narrative, but not so much because it was historically accurate or true. It was more of the power, the info, the you know how the story impacted your emotions.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Billy Coppedge: I'm actually a big believer about in the affect of the power of story. I think.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Billy Coppedge: And why Jesus.
Billy Coppedge: I'll I'll tell you. That's why one of the reasons Jesus used it. And it's one of the reasons why Netflix is, is Netflix. It's like.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.
Billy Coppedge: It's it's so incredibly impactful. And it is life transforming.
Billy Coppedge: But the beauty of what we're doing, the beauty of what we're talking about here. And this is where I would say, when I'm talking about orality or oral Bible storytelling, I want to root it in the historical revelation of God in.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.
Billy Coppedge: And I I think that I think that make. I think that's a game changer. And so I think for me, that's part of what I was trying to say earlier, and I said it clumsy. But if there's a real sense in which it's like, how do we get better at telling Biblical stories?
Andy Miller III: The stores and.
Billy Coppedge: Scripture.
Billy Coppedge: and it doesn't mean and, Andy, we see this all the time. People be like, well, I'm terrible at memorization. I just couldn't do that. It takes me 2 weeks. It takes me a week to learn 2 verses. So you know, a 10 verse story. That's 5 weeks. It's interesting. It's interesting. The people's conceptions of memorization and kind of what means to kind of actually internalize Scripture.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Billy Coppedge: And when you go after that, oftentimes, when you're talking, you know, you're asking them to learn a couple of psalms or you know passage from Romans 8 or whatever it is, Philippians, and it it's not that there's anything wrong with memorizing them. Praise Jesus, but it's interesting when you shift and ask them, say, Okay, let's just learn this story. Let's just let's work on this Mary Martha story
Billy Coppedge: as it is. So as we're they come as they. As they continue on. They came to a certain village, and there wasn't a woman named Martha. Let's just start there, and you begin to tell that story, and you ask somebody to retell it, and they kind of get 60, and then you go through it again. You ask somebody to retell it. It's interesting, Andy, how quickly people will be able to hide just a few just of just hide a story like Mary Martha in their heart pocket.
Billy Coppedge: There's something about. And I think this is the significant thing. There's something about
Billy Coppedge: structuring the packaging, the information in a narrative that has a way of impacting or Si settling into our memories, not for everyone, but for many people in ways that propositions don't in the same way.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes, I'm with you. I oh, I'm 100% with you. Yeah, in the preaching class. I challenge students to I'm thinking I'm thinking of requiring it. I give it like a I make an incentive for them to preach without notes or manuscript, and this is something I will learn from Ellsworth, Callus and I and I have a whole lecture on this where we we talk about it and try to indicate this isn't memorization.
Andy Miller III: This, and you use the word internalization like where it now, if it is memorized, if there are parts that are exact
Andy Miller III: that works, how much of of what? What you're talking about, like telling God's story better. How much of it is exact like you want it to land like these particular words is, is that.
Billy Coppedge: So glad you asked. And I'm hoping that what that means is is that you're gonna sign up for our next online orality story.
Andy Miller III: Oh, tell us, tell us, oh, tell everybody how they can do that! First.
Billy Coppedge: No, I just. But I what I'm saying is, that's a whole nother process of learning. One of the things we talk about is, here's the deal like I, this is Esv. I don't. I'm less concerned about knowing all you know. 100% of the words from Esv or New King James, or whatever your nld, whatever your translation is.
Billy Coppedge: What I am concerned about is they're all. That's not my story. It's God's story. So I'm happy to tell it in my own words, but I I have to include all the details, so I would hope if somebody went back and listened to my story. It would be very close. They could follow along and be like, Yeah, he got all the details.
Billy Coppedge: It was interesting. I was replaying that, trying to think through. Did I get all the details Mary has chosen what is best? It will not be taken from her. That was the one part I wanted to make sure I got right.
Billy Coppedge: But so there are times. But then we have a even that when we tell a story we have a process we go through that allows the tell of the facilitator to try, and they could retell it several times that way. They can re, you know, if they miss something, or if the audience contributes and add something that's not in the text, there's ways to straighten that out.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: The point of this is, Andy is oral Scripture engagement.
Billy Coppedge: We have found it. It connects with people
Billy Coppedge: on an imaginative level.
Billy Coppedge: and when I say that it almost connects with people on a gut level.
Billy Coppedge: and I think that is one. It's the word of God. 2. Using narrative.
Billy Coppedge: it has a way of kind of not always, by any means, but it has a way of kind of drawing us in as we communicate.
Andy Miller III: Hang on!
Billy Coppedge: In the story. So a buddy of mine, a guy named Tom Stefan. He's just put out a new book called Character Theology.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Billy Coppedge: And I'm I'm telling you. I think it's golden.
Billy Coppedge: Because think there's something to it. Ultimately, why are we doing theology? We're trying to do theology one? We can better understand God's choices. And how do let me say this way to better understand the character of God? And how do we understand the character of God by looking at his choices. And then you say, now, as he's related with mankind, we better understand the character of man, and how do we do that? We understand man's choices in relationship to God?
Billy Coppedge: And so so Tom's put this in a in a theological framework. But by looking at Biblical characters.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Billy Coppedge: I just wonder if that's not incredibly an incredibly powerful tool for folks in the past, right? Folks that are discipling their kids, folks that are on mission with God, in whatever capacity. You know, the the marketplace world, wherever they're at
Billy Coppedge: at the end of the day is, I'm all of us are characters in a story faced with decisions. We need God's help.
Billy Coppedge: and we're all faced with choices.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, we.
Billy Coppedge: Earned to Scripture.
Billy Coppedge: and then suddenly we identify with
Billy Coppedge: with Martha.
Andy Miller III: And the and.
Billy Coppedge: Invitation of saying, Am I actually going? What if God is in my house
Billy Coppedge: and I'm missing him?
Andy Miller III: The second.
Billy Coppedge: Of the Trinity who's abiding in my
Billy Coppedge: pull.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: And and I'm I'm I'm running by.
Billy Coppedge: It's like, Oh, that's not a choice I want to make. That's I want to make different choices.
Billy Coppedge: but it's like, Oh, that that suddenly opens up the possibility for me to recognize. Where? Where have I missed the way? And then what would it look like for me to make a different set of choices.
Billy Coppedge: And again, Andy, this happens in propositional text. So you're looking at the epistles you're looking at certain parts of the profits, all that. It's not that you can't use some of these same tools.
Billy Coppedge: My concern is is that oftentimes we start at the propositional end
Billy Coppedge: and are like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, wait. Wait. You need to know about Abraham, or you need to know about. And we'll go back.
Andy Miller III: Right, right, right.
Billy Coppedge: Start at the end with the propositions, and then kind of have to almost assume or work back the gaps with the story.
Billy Coppedge: and that's been one of my challenges is is again, bear with me. Some people would struggle with this. Let me just throw it out there. But is it an accident that the epistles come at
Billy Coppedge: the end of the text.
Andy Miller III: Hmm, interesting.
Billy Coppedge: It's interesting. We don't start with the epistles, it seems. If God was wanted to be efficient, he put the really kind of succinct propositional revelation right at the beginning. This is the good stuff, and then the fluffy.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: Literally gives us. He gives us a chunk of narrative. And then at the end, it's like, Oh, okay. And here's some. There's there's expository propositional material, or it's framed up in those ways
Billy Coppedge: that yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. It's funny. This, this, I've I'm recording a lot of podcasts for the summer of this week. It's interesting. How often canonical placement has come up in these cup podcasts.
Billy Coppedge: That. Right? Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, it's just a kind of a reoccurring theme. It's like the the summer for Bavar childs. And like, I will see. But it's interesting, like there is. There is something to this that
Andy Miller III: as you're working through like Scripture that I I like that, you know you come, there still is always story, and as as a preacher like, I want to be able to get to the idea of what like. So, for instance, Jerome Ben Kyan and I. We're talking about this with related to Jude. And you know Jude comes out like. And and there was this idea. There, there's a story behind Jude.
Andy Miller III: It's not that it's not told. It's a story, but you pick up the details so you can figure that out. And one of the things it's a. We even talked about the canonical placement of it, that there's this picture of the eternality of God at the very end. Now, him who's able to keep you from stumbling. To him. Be glory! For now and forever, both in the now in the church, beyond all time and place, so like the like that idea kind of moves us toward
Andy Miller III: revelation, which is in the next book. But but in part that happens because of a problem that Jude is confronting.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, this is really interesting, Bill. I want to give you a chance to talk about in a integrated orality
Andy Miller III: like. And and you you mentioned this earlier, and maybe you've already been talking about it. But if like, is there? Is that a distinction like, is there a distinction with that? And like what's coming with digital communications and the like, or like, Tell, tell me what integrated orality is.
Billy Coppedge: Yeah, for sure, Andy.
Billy Coppedge: I I just want to refer back to Jude.
Andy Miller III: Oh, yeah.
Billy Coppedge: It. It just cause I think it's significant in some ways you could be like, oh, that's an epistle, but it's interesting looking at Jude at all. The little micro narratives.
Andy Miller III: No, they're there. Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: You know, saying talking about Sodom and Gomorrah, you know, talking about Michael and the Archae angels enic balm. It's like it's like, Oh, you have all these little micro narratives, and he's almost like he's assuming that his audience kind of has these stories in their heart pocket. And so he's just trying to kind of pull them together as he's kind of building, you know. Kind of writing his letter.
Andy Miller III: Oh, man, I can talk about Jude for a long time, so.
Billy Coppedge: Love that. Yeah, yeah.
Andy Miller III: So also just think about the language, too. And even in Iv gets this powerful, this pow, these powerful words about Jude's opponents, what does it say they secretly slipped in
Andy Miller III: like, this is what they're doing. Yeah, yeah, there's a group. And and and I said, because this group is secretly slipped in. He calls upon. He gives up writing the letter that he intended to write about the salvation we share, and instead called upon them to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
Billy Coppedge: So good. Well, I just I I just think there's there's more you could look at that and say, Oh, that's a textual epistle.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Billy Coppedge: Propositional, and I guess I want to argue and just say, Yes, it is. There's, and it also has these oral elements kind of woven in. And I I think those are.
Billy Coppedge: I think those are undervalued. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: That does time with the reality. We it's been 2 years now. We had a had the opportunity to do a series of interviews. And one of the fun things that God has opened up is we've gotten to be gotta had the chance to serve. The was on movement as an organization.
Andy Miller III: Huge. Okay, wait. But I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to explain to people what Luzon is. Some people might not know ecumenical movement. And this is this is one. I'm so excited I'm so thankful your part is. But tell everybody what it is, and then about the.
Billy Coppedge: Yeah, for sure. No, thank you. So billy Graham and John Scott in the 19 seventies may have been
Billy Coppedge: the 2, if not of the 2 most well known Evangelicals in the world, kind of global, like a world over global church. And so they had tons of friends world over because they traveled and spoke and taught everywhere.
Billy Coppedge: and they began to realize, hey, we've got great friends that are working hard for the Kingdom of God, but our friends don't know each other.
Billy Coppedge: They began to envision, bringing their friends together so their friends could get to know each other and kind of collaborate together for what God was doing around the world. And so that birth, the Luzon movement. They had their first conference in 1,974, and they've had. They've had up. They had one in in Manila and 89, another one in Cape Town in 2,010. They're planning the next one is in September, in Seoul, Korea, and they are gonna try and bring together 5,000
Billy Coppedge: live participants, and then another 10,000 virtual participants.
Andy Miller III: Wow!
Billy Coppedge: So it's this massive undertaking. They they have representation from 200 countries and territories and kind of this whole gamut but are trying to say, and I like this. And I it's worth it's worth sharing with people. Check out their website, the Lazon. Just lazon.org if you go to. They've just released a state of the great Commission report.
Billy Coppedge: And it's this beautiful. It's very well done. It's on their website. But this kind of amazing report of where we at and what needs to, what are the key issues that need to be addressed by the Church between now and 2050.
Andy Miller III: Wow!
Billy Coppedge: The point being is, instead of just being like, Oh, we want to predict what's going to happen.
Billy Coppedge: We want to answer the critical questions today as as the kingdom, as the body of Christ, so that we can influence where the Church is going to be and where the world's going to be in 2050.
Andy Miller III: Which one.
Billy Coppedge: You love that kind of vision? Like, yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: What are the questions we need to be asking, which is relevant for all this, whether we're in missions or whether we're in theological education. It's Wgm. Or Wbs. It's kind of like, what are the questions I need to be asking today. So I can influence
Billy Coppedge: my community by 2050. And so these guys are trying to do that. And they've got a whole bunch of just great material I I highly recommend. I highly recommend them.
Billy Coppedge: One of the things that that we we've just actually tried to write was a
Billy Coppedge: let me let me back up. I had a chance 2 years ago to have a series of conversations with catalyst from all these different networks. And so we had freedom and justice. We had we had disability concerns. We had children at risk. We had creation care. We had fundraising ministry fundraising. We had a whole host of these, and I found myself just trying to kind of reach out to them. I was orality. They're the different issue groups and trying to just say, Where is common ground.
Billy Coppedge: And Andy, what was interesting was. Some of them is real natural, you know. We you hang out with you know, church planning. And it's like, Oh, yeah, there's overlap there between us and morality. No problem.
Billy Coppedge: But I I got to know one lady who it was a catalyst for creation care.
Billy Coppedge: And I'm thinking, what's the connection between creation, care, and orality like it was kind of like. It was almost like a challenge like, How how do these go together?
Billy Coppedge: And it was interesting immediately. Her very first thought, or like very first statement, was, as she said, Oh, creation! Care is all about relationships.
Billy Coppedge: and what what startled me as we began to then push. As I began to have these interviews with different people, it began to realize, oh.
Billy Coppedge: everybody is involved in trying. They're they want to see the King of Godcom. They want to see people flourish and essential to every one of them is trying to communicate.
Billy Coppedge: Yeah, all unfolding, communicating.
Billy Coppedge: So you know every one of them is involved in digital media. But then they're all involved in these different forms, and it was interesting almost to a T. Every one of them was like storytelling is critical for what we're doing. We have to tell these stories we have to tell. We have to tell.
Billy Coppedge: and what we began to realize was so often times when people think of orality, and particularly now in among mission circles. I don't know about theological, I would say in theological circles as well, although you may find it different. There's a certain sense in which orality is now. It's accepted as important.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Billy Coppedge: It's thought of as kind of like. Oh, I'm glad you're involved in that, because we need to reach people that can't read.
Andy Miller III: Wow! Yes.
Billy Coppedge: I'm not. I'm not involved in that. I'm an I feel called to reach the the influencers and the gatekeepers.
Billy Coppedge: Could you help me know? Where do I find those people.
Andy Miller III: Wow, yeah.
Billy Coppedge: Like there's a certain attitude. It's like orality is good for the hard to reach people. But I I'm really called to make a difference among the urban context and.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Billy Coppedge: He!
Andy Miller III: There. There's nothing oral about that society.
Billy Coppedge: It's almost like, and when you nobody's been rude but that we've noticed this attitude about orality and the way people interface with it. And I think there's been a little bit of a sense of like. Now hang on.
Billy Coppedge: Maybe that's right. But I actually don't think that's how Jesus. I don't think that's how Jesus approached things like communication. And I think what we, what we realized is we talked to all these different groups is every one of them is involved in using oral communication strategies and practices.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: Don't realize it, everyone.
Billy Coppedge: So they're all involved in this. They just haven't taken time to actually realize it, name it, or kind of strategically think through what's kind of the theological underpinning. And how could we do this better.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: Think that was one of the.
Billy Coppedge: Now I want to be careful, because that came out too strong. Every one of these folks is, is doing an amazing job for the Kingdom of God. I don't want to be critical of what they're doing. They are. Every one of them is a volunteer.
Andy Miller III: Working.
Billy Coppedge: A 190 HA week. You know that I that came out the wrong way. I don't want to create the size, my friends.
Billy Coppedge: What I was trying to. What I was trying to notice was, they're using morality without even realizing it's morality.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes, everybody is right there. Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: Yeah, totally. And I think that's part of like trying to say is, how do we just begin to highlight that and draw attention to it.
Billy Coppedge: I think that's significant. And and this is the reason why. And you mentioned this. But I let me just
Billy Coppedge: let me see if I can tie it in with with
Billy Coppedge: artificial intelligence, and digital lives.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, so I was curious about this, like what the
Andy Miller III: the digital piece and and yeah, and I mean.
Billy Coppedge: I, yeah.
Andy Miller III: Is there a need for it? I mean.
Billy Coppedge: Exactly. There's certain sense. It's like I have my phone like Bill. Why, why would I go back to? It? Almost feels archaic or kind of why would I do orality? Everybody now is digital like, who cares about oral stuff.
Billy Coppedge: Andy? It's interesting. If you were to sketch out just, you know were to sketch out. And then we use broad stereotypes. If you were to list out kind of characteristics for many of your Gen. Z. Or millennials today.
Billy Coppedge: they like to have voice. They want to be able to participate.
Billy Coppedge: They're highly visual.
Billy Coppedge: Very narrative. They they very much like narrative. They want things to be concrete.
Billy Coppedge: They want things to be immediate, very pragmatic.
Andy Miller III: Not interesting.
Billy Coppedge: An abstract. They're not. It's like they're they're very very. It's almost like the things operate more on an imaginative level.
Billy Coppedge: or in the engagement happens there.
Billy Coppedge: It's interesting. If you were to kind of lay those out, and then you were to say, Well, what are the characteristics of primary oral reliant communicators. It's interesting. They
Billy Coppedge: they love narrative.
Billy Coppedge: they like to participate.
Billy Coppedge: they love it. When things are visual.
Billy Coppedge: They're not interested in abstract. They want things to be very concrete. They're very pragmatic.
Billy Coppedge: And suddenly you begin to realize, like characteristics of highly oral reliant communicators.
Billy Coppedge: There's a lot of overlap with.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: Indicators of today.
Andy Miller III: At.
Billy Coppedge: I'd argue that we're we're not just in a digital era. We're in a digital oral era.
Andy Miller III: Yes. Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: And since you have a return of orality that I think oftentimes has been overlooked or undervalued, and it doesn't. Now that we've got digital media. It's not that I need to deal. Do away with this and try and bring in something archaic from the past.
Billy Coppedge: But I think if I'm going to engage people here through my through
Billy Coppedge: through my digital, the digital aspect of my life.
Billy Coppedge: I think morality has a lot to offer us.
Billy Coppedge: And I think particularly Andy, as we think about things like AI.
Billy Coppedge: And all of that. You know this, like almost this kind of renewed interest in transhumanism.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: There's a real sense of like. Oh, I think the in
Billy Coppedge: I think the human body is becoming more, and is going to be more and more of a value. And I think that's going to give us as the church an opportunity to recognize
Billy Coppedge: as important as digital media is. Digital tools are there.
Billy Coppedge: The Christian faith values the human body.
Billy Coppedge: and at the end of the day that orality is, it's not just the spoken word. It's the spoken, embodied word.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: You don't ever. You don't ever get a spoken word without a body.
Andy Miller III: Right. And that's a key part of what you've done and those of you who are watching on Youtube. If you go back and see the story that Billy told earlier. Mary and Martha. It was very visual, very embodied like, that's a key part of it. And I think that's part of what makes Youtube what it is.
Billy Coppedge: I never said.
Andy Miller III: Why so so effective? And why is it that people will listen to 3 h of Joe Rogan talking to somebody or or Jordan Peterson, or maybe 45 min an hour of Andy and and Billy talking like you, you see us interacting. It still is embodied, even if it is digital.
Billy Coppedge: Which I think is, I think it's there's a there's something digital media can do and giving us the visual of the. But it's interesting, because there is a difference that it still is 2D.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: And I think that's part of it is, I think this is the advantage digital media allows us to do this to save it, project it into the future. Maintain it, you know all of that. So I I don't wanna do away with digital media. Don't hear me say that.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Billy Coppedge: But I think if we're going to properly inhabit our digital worlds, I think there's things we can learn from orality. And I think it actually can help us
Billy Coppedge: in a sense like, how do we take advantage of the gifts of digital tools?
Billy Coppedge: But then, how do we also not give away
Billy Coppedge: the fact that every human being in the world
Billy Coppedge: is inherently oral.
Billy Coppedge: You can learn literate tools, you can learn digital tools, but we're all inherently. We're born oral.
Billy Coppedge: And I wanna just say, I think that's important in our amidst the digital conversations and AI conversations that are happening today, particularly as we're trying to think about ministry.
Billy Coppedge: I I think we we
Billy Coppedge: we neglect
Billy Coppedge: the oral embodied word at our peril.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: Again. I don't mean that to be heavy handed, or
Billy Coppedge: I don't mean that to be heavy at any way.
Billy Coppedge: I just wonder if that's a caution that we could kind of bring out and be like. Oh, this is something we need to be paying attention to, even as all of us are trying to figure out, okay, well, how does AI affect me and my ministry or my family today?
Billy Coppedge: Does that make sense? Maybe actually.
Andy Miller III: What I mean. What would you like to see churches doing specifically, like like a a church that takes these concepts and really embodies them in their their programs, their life. What would they be doing in this week compared to last last week if they got everything that you are communicating all that you wanted. What would this look like in the life of a local church?
Billy Coppedge: Begin to internalize Scripture.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: Because I think that in some ways like, How do you begin as a church community to say we're actually going to live and breathe. We want to internalize Scripture.
Billy Coppedge: and I think that part of it is so that then it's like, I mean my number one thing this next week we're in the Mary Martha story comes from the end of the loop. Tim.
Billy Coppedge: I think it's verse 38 to 42. Go home and learn that like. Teach your kids that. Practice it with your colleague. I I don't know but it's like, start there, so that as you begin to internalize Scripture, then you actually have something to offer the next time. It's like Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Jesus! Abides in my house. Where's Jesus in my room? Where is Jesus in my house. Where's Jesus in my office, and am I in danger of running by him?
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Billy Coppedge: That's going to. That's going to reframe the way I do church. That's going to reframe the way I do work.
Billy Coppedge: But if I have that story in my heart pocket. Then that begins, the story begins to form me.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Billy Coppedge: I wonder if in some ways it's like, Well, how do I do? Evangelism? How do I do? Discipleship? How do I do? Youth, ministry. How do I do? Part of me says, start there, start internalizing Scripture, and then let that be the spearhead. And yes, you're gonna draw on other things. But if Scripture really is our primary tool for bringing about transformation in the human heart, then why not internalize Scripture? And let that be my lead in all of my ministries and stress, in all my relationships.
Andy Miller III: So would that be telling, like internalizing these stories for a pastor trying to like, encourage people to do that themselves. But within worship. Does this mean like, there are multiple times where people are telling Bible stories, you know, like, as you say, this is a story from the Bible, and it's true, and then and then they do it like they. They use that method within worship.
Billy Coppedge: That's a good question. I love to think that through more. I wonder if in some ways you've got the advantage.
Billy Coppedge: So music is all music is oral, do? I'm saying it is embodied. It is embody expression. So it's it, which is actually why it's so powerful. So part of me would say, is, what would it look like
Billy Coppedge: to put some of these songs like one of my questions for your youth, Pat, even for your worship leader would be like, Hey, could you write a song that goes with Mary and Martha?
Billy Coppedge: No, because Hillsong hasn't done that yet.
Andy Miller III: Hmm, right, yeah.
Billy Coppedge: Really like. We're that we're not gonna do that. Why not? Nobody in the like. Try it. Write a song on Mary and Martha, and then let that be a part of the conversation. Now again, you can't do that every week, or but you could do it a lot more weeks than we are doing it. And I wonder if those kind of things like, what would it look like to bring people together around a story.
Billy Coppedge: whether you've got a men's group at 6 o'clock on Tuesday mornings, or whether you've got a label, ladies Bible study, or whether you've got youth group on on Friday nights, or whenever it is, it's like, what if you were to look for ways to say? How could I? How could I incorporate things like story or song.
Billy Coppedge: how do I? What does it look like drama like? How could I actually bring that in
Billy Coppedge: appreciating kind of the embodied performance of Scripture?
Billy Coppedge: And then allowing that to kind of reframe. When we, when we embody Scripture people see it, they hear it. They recognize things they hadn't before. I can't tell you how many times I've walked out of a church and had somebody. I'll do calming of the storm that Jesus coming to storm people be like I. It's like. I've never heard that story before.
Andy Miller III: Wow, interesting.
Billy Coppedge: What are you talking about? Of course you know that story, but it I wonder if there's something in that? And again, it's not a silver bullet. There's limitations to it hands down.
Billy Coppedge: but it's fun.
Billy Coppedge: It engages people on an imaginative in an imaginative way. It invites participation, it invites dialogue.
Billy Coppedge: It invites creativity.
Billy Coppedge: And I
Billy Coppedge: I'm convinced all of that is.
Billy Coppedge: it allows for an engagement with Scripture that is very winsome.
Billy Coppedge: I wonder if we need more of that. Andy. Yeah, that
Andy Miller III: Curious.
Billy Coppedge: 2 wins. That may be too idealistic. So I I we gotta put it into practice. And it's hard. 100.
Andy Miller III: You I, knowing you grew up in Wilmore at least spent mo most of your you know years there. Yeah, and I I think of some people who were there with you at somebody like another Wbs guy, Bill Blair, and you all had a youth pastor who's really yeah, and Julie Goddard. And I think and actually I just met his brother. Believe it or not, Jerome, who you have here. He's a entomologist. He's like the leading expert on
Andy Miller III: on mosquitoes and bed bugs. Interesting he teaches the Msu. And he's a pastor of a Gmc. Church now.
Andy Miller III: I had had no idea I was gonna meet this guy. We spoke a a conference together. Well, but even even I realize, even just hearing from Julie's brother. Sorry we're kind of talking some our personal friends here, but you had a youth pastor who, I think, embodied some of these things as well. Right and and I mean, did, was that part of what what drew you in? And there was like? There was almost a mark that I saw from my friends who grew up at the Willmore
Andy Miller III: in that community who had this this type of mark on them, of of Julie's discipleship and storytelling.
Billy Coppedge: It's interesting who we embodied one of the things that one who's an amazing storyteller, but who, if I can tie it back into Mary Martha.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Billy Coppedge: Embodied trying to live out a Mary
Billy Coppedge: ministry.
Billy Coppedge: and what I mean by that is, it was like he got busy and distracted for sure, but at the heart Julie wanted to be present to Jesus in everything he did.
Billy Coppedge: and so it made him a great storyteller, because he was willing to be present to all of us punk kids.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: which actually, just really that impact. None of us have forgotten that.
Billy Coppedge: So who? Who? He's continued to influence us even, you know, literally decades later.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I love it.
Billy Coppedge: But we we all have some of those people.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Oh, no, that's right.
Billy Coppedge: Him for sure, but maybe not all of us. Well, I wish God
Billy Coppedge: maybe this is maybe not. All of us have had those kind of people, but we have the opportunity to be those kind of people in those lives, in the lives of those around us.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: That make sense.
Andy Miller III: It does, it does, Billy. And one of the things about like being around those type of people is a key. Part of how we end up are being shaved as disciples.
Andy Miller III: I should have I should have asked this first. So define orality
Andy Miller III: so like this. I think this is helpful. I mean, I think we people probably know by imagine that this is something you think about. And you have to present on it, I and we. We've been in and around it the whole time. But when you're when you're describing people, what it is you're focusing on, I think I have an idea, but I would love to get just a tight definition from you.
Billy Coppedge: No, and even we've we've we've woven it in even already. I would just say something simple, like communication that relies on the spoken, but also on the embodied word.
Andy Miller III: Okay, okay, interesting.
Billy Coppedge: Sorry the spoken on the this, the spoken communication that relies on the spoken and embodied word. It's the sense of trying to bring together. It's not just the spoken word, I think, for the longest time. That's what I thought.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: It. The body is a part of that, and that's where it's.
Billy Coppedge: It's not just that. It's the words coming out of my mouth that make it oral. It's the body is actually involved in all oral communication, and it means my, the my verbal communication. But my non verbal matters.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: 100
Billy Coppedge: in a lot of ways. And that's where. So there, sometimes there's even a limitation to digital media. Certainly there's a limitation to textual media. It it misses all or misses it can miss some of that
Billy Coppedge: so that's where I would start.
Andy Miller III: And it's it has come through a a lot of times, thought as A with the way you're addressing it. And we're working with Wgm. And this a missiological discipline, because in part there are oral cultures that are are not literate in the sense of like having a written word. But it's so much more than that as you're describing here already like. Don't let this just be something that's about
Andy Miller III: people groups who don't have a written language right. This is something that's incorporated. Everybody's experience.
Billy Coppedge: Yeah, I think means then we've got to actually think in my in my whatever my kingdom strategy is whether I'm in the church or I'm in the home or a school or community, whatever it is marketplace. It's like how
Billy Coppedge: I'm working with oral communicators
Billy Coppedge: now. They they may also have literate and digital skills? 100. But how do I? How does that reframe? And and maybe it? Maybe I I don't know. But is that? How do I at least allow that to be a working category.
Billy Coppedge: which, Andy, I think it's gonna I think it's gonna mean us rethinking some things like, for example, I think it opens the door for saying.
Billy Coppedge: How do I engage with things like the arts.
Billy Coppedge: and not just using the arts or storytelling to illustrate not just a.
Andy Miller III: yes.
Billy Coppedge: I'm fascinated by the fact. Oftentimes Jesus would tell a story, and then just walk away.
Billy Coppedge: or he might ask a question.
Billy Coppedge: and it's like. No, no, no, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus! Years. They're gonna misunderstand. You need to go back and explain like this is hermeneutical suicide like you don't know what could happen, or how that could be misconstrued or no. No, go back and iron it out, make sure.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: And it can repeat it back. The 3 points, all that, and Jesus just walks away
Billy Coppedge: for most of us in the communication business, particularly in ministry, that scares us to death.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: It's terrifies us. What if I'm going to be misunderstood? I need to explain. So you know what I mean.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: It's interesting how oftentimes Jesus didn't always feel that compulsion.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. He did not feel that compulsion.
Billy Coppedge: Allows there to be this sort of mystery. He kind of leaves it, and it's like, Oh, my goodness like.
Billy Coppedge: So I just wonder if in some ways, what would it look like for a church or a ministry, or a theological institution
Billy Coppedge: to allow for some of the mystery
Billy Coppedge: that kind of ends up, being inherent in
Billy Coppedge: in oral communications, like song.
Billy Coppedge: Drama.
Andy Miller III: No, I hear you.
Billy Coppedge: I'm telling so, anyway.
Andy Miller III: Are there critics, Billy of orality.
Billy Coppedge: Oh, yeah, like 100%.
Andy Miller III: What? What, what's the criticism like? What are the where do they.
Billy Coppedge: One of the biggest ones is, you'll get a very strong.
Billy Coppedge: But I there's certain certain denominations
Billy Coppedge: and certain traditions that get real suspicious that we're trying to edit or kind of amend redact the text.
Billy Coppedge: And so there's certain groups that are said, Hey, hey, hey! It's the Word of God, and you're you're being, you know, kind of loosey goosey.
Billy Coppedge: I we take that real seriously.
Andy Miller III: Hmm,
Billy Coppedge: Now there's kind of a spectrum.
Billy Coppedge: and in some ways like what I'm offering you, even in the Mary Martha. In some ways that's a translation. I'm offering you a translation now. I'm hoping if you went back, and you know, double check me. I'd be pretty accurate.
Billy Coppedge: I want to be accurate to all the details.
Billy Coppedge: you've got some that would air like it has to be exact word from word from whatever the translation like, or whatever your written translation. You've got others that are be are willing to paraphrase. It's like, How do you tell the Noah story? It's 4 chapters, and how do you do it. When you only have 10 min at Youth group.
Billy Coppedge: you're gonna pay, you have to paraphrase.
Billy Coppedge: So there's some people that will feel more comfortable with that, and are like, Hey, I've kind of distilled a lot of the story and kind of made it shorter for the amount of time I've got.
Billy Coppedge: Other people feel real suspect suspicious of that, and are like Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!
Billy Coppedge: Particularly in unreach it could be when you're doing outreach, or you're doing ministry with folks that don't have any Biblical categories. You're offering them kind of, in a sense, a Billy paraphrase.
Billy Coppedge: They actually, you know, encounter the full text at a later date, are they? Gonna is that gonna undermine trust?
Billy Coppedge: those are those are questions that we've had to grapple with. That's a spectrum of kind of where people fall.
Billy Coppedge: but those discussions aren't bad. I think those.
Andy Miller III: Discussion,
Billy Coppedge: There's a certain there's a certain limitation. And again, orally, traditionally, it's like, whatever you think about the back shelf of your memory. You can only remember what you can like. The way to remember it is to retell it.
Billy Coppedge: As long as you're retelling it you can remember it, which is how you you know you get the beards of old who could retell these huge, long
Billy Coppedge: narratives.
Billy Coppedge: You and I don't do that. We could.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, that's right, interesting.
Billy Coppedge: Practice.
Billy Coppedge: But it's funny we now we don't have to. We don't have to retell anything. We just pull it up on our phone.
Billy Coppedge: So with with literate and digital technologies, we don't have to remember anymore.
Billy Coppedge: which is curious. So the fact is, is, it's like.
Billy Coppedge: but there is a limit to what people can remember if they don't have a way to Re
Billy Coppedge: to be, to remember. Let me say it this way. There's a limit to what people can keep remembering. If they don't have a way to kind of go back and anchor and refer to.
Billy Coppedge: And that's where you need some sort of artifact. You need some sort of written text.
Billy Coppedge: It's something.
Billy Coppedge: then that's the gift of Scripture. Given that to us.
Billy Coppedge: Which, again, that's another conversation. It's interesting how much of this was originally oral.
Andy Miller III: Right? Right? Yeah, interesting.
Billy Coppedge: That's another. That's another podcast.
Billy Coppedge: But you'll have people that'll say that you know what I'm saying. It's like, how do you do?
Billy Coppedge: How do you do leadership, development? Or what do you do about the epistles? What do you do about the non narrative portions of Scripture?
Billy Coppedge: what do you do you know, what do you do in those kind of context and and all that's valid? So it's it's it. There's there's legit kind of challenge, for sure there's limitations to it. Stories not gonna answer all of our problems.
Billy Coppedge: Well, Bible storytelling is certainly not going to answer all the pastors problems, you know on a Sunday morning.
Billy Coppedge: or during the rest of the week.
Billy Coppedge: are, are there? Are there strategies there that we could draw on and leverage and implement? I think so, and most of us haven't thought through those, or I'm still learning to think through them.
Billy Coppedge: but I will say they.
Billy Coppedge: I think we've got a good model in Jesus.
Billy Coppedge: Jesus has a high value of of Scripture.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: He's a master oral communicator.
Billy Coppedge: and you know, I just in the little bit of time we were in Israel last year. There's a certain sense of just. I was reminded again of how oral Hebraic culture is.
Andy Miller III: Right right email, link.
Billy Coppedge: 100. So just kind of like, oh, none of this would. It's not like we're imposing this on the text, or.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Billy Coppedge: On Jesus. It's like, Oh, in some ways it's a rediscovery, and it makes most of us uncomfortable because we've been trained in certain traditions.
Billy Coppedge: Those traditions are requiring us to ask hard questions, you know, post vitamin, we're wanting to know. Okay, how do I analyze this? And can I do a scientific method study
Billy Coppedge: of, you know the Book of Revelation.
Billy Coppedge: That's going to be challenging from an oral perspective.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: But
Billy Coppedge: are there things? Are there some things so? Are there some advantages of doing an expository kind? Of what are the you know? What are the structural laws that hold together? Revelation? Yeah, 100%. But are there also some things that an oral approach, or perhaps more, of an oral imaginative engagement with revelation. Yeah, I think so. So. Instead of it being like, Oh, this is the only way, for I think more in some ways what we want to do is
Billy Coppedge: I don't want to be. And A specialist in orality
Billy Coppedge: I wanna be. I wanna be better at communicating God. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: That's right, right?
Billy Coppedge: And in a sense, what are the tools? So if it's expository teaching, let me go there, you know, if I need to do a study on Jude. Let me go there like that's what my people need.
Billy Coppedge: And as I'm doing that, are there some other ways, some creative ways, possibly some oral ways that I could draw that out to engage people not just on the cognitive, rational register, but on the imaginative, affective register. And I I think story and orality lend itself there in a way that most of us have undervalued. If that makes any sense.
Andy Miller III: It does make sense. Yeah. Billy, I'm curious you mentioned, and we only have a few more minutes. So I wanna make sure.
Billy Coppedge: I'm sorry, but.
Andy Miller III: I feel you said a few minutes ago about a course that you offer, or a training that that you have available for teaching people to tell stories tell us about that, and how people can get access that themselves.
Billy Coppedge: Oh, you're kind, Andy, so
Billy Coppedge: Well, I'll tell you what so this is fun. If just today Luzon published an article on Integrated Orality, and that might be that might be of interest to some people. They've just let that out this out this week, and it's not long. It's not technical at all, but it's just trying to kind of put that in front of us. Kind of those categories in front of us. If folks wanted to follow up, we did. We did an online training this spring. And we posted some of that just to my Youtube channel. Just Billy Coppage.
Billy Coppedge: And some of that. Joanna's on that. But it's it's Joanne and I's Youtube Channel. But we put a whole series of stories on there, and if folks were interested, I that would be a place they could look you know there might be more information if they're interested in a training.
Billy Coppedge: I'm in the process of moving internationally. I don't have one plan for the States this year, but if they're interested I'd love them to have somebody reach out to me or connect me. I'd be happy for you to put my email and your show notes reach out. And you know, if folks are interested. Either I'd love to incorporate them into one of our trainings in the future, or it may be I could help link them with some folks that are doing trainings here locally.
Billy Coppedge: If that's helpful.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Billy, would you tell us a story as we kind of close out here?
Andy Miller III: Another story? Yeah.
Billy Coppedge: Yeah, we give you one more. This is one I've been working on. So you'd be patient. I'll give you one that's very much in proud in progress.
Billy Coppedge: this is a true story, let me hang on. Let's just do it right. This is a true story. It comes from God's word, and it goes like this.
Billy Coppedge: Now when the Philistines heard
Billy Coppedge: that David had been crowned king.
Billy Coppedge: they came up looking for him.
Billy Coppedge: and David, when he heard of this, went down to the stronghold.
Billy Coppedge: and the Philistines came up and encamped in the valley of Rafaheen.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Billy Coppedge: And David inquired of the Lord, and said, Shall I go up against? Will you give them into my hands?
Billy Coppedge: And the Lord said, go up, for I will surely give them into your hands.
Billy Coppedge: And so David went up to bail Parisine.
Billy Coppedge: and he defeated the Philistines there, and he named the Place Bale, Parisine.
Billy Coppedge: for he said, The Lord is broken through my enemies like the breakthrough of waters.
Billy Coppedge: and they had left their idols there, and David and his men gathered them up and carried them away.
Billy Coppedge: It happened again that the Philistines came up and camped in the valley of Raphaim.
Billy Coppedge: and David inquired of the Lord.
Billy Coppedge: And the Lord said, Do not go up directly.
Billy Coppedge: but rather
Billy Coppedge: come, but go around behind them and come in front of the balsam trees.
Billy Coppedge: and it will be that when you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the Balson trees.
Billy Coppedge: that you will know that the Lord is gone before you
Billy Coppedge: to deliver your enemies into your hand.
Billy Coppedge: And so David did so.
Billy Coppedge: and he defeated the Philistines from Giba
Billy Coppedge: as far as Gezi here.
Billy Coppedge: and that's the end of the story.
Andy Miller III: I love that story is that is that second Samuel 5.
Billy Coppedge: Yeah, exactly. Starting from verse 17.
Andy Miller III: Oh, man, I I love the whole idea. Parisim! The work comes from Perez. This. The son who was born to Hague, Hagar, and a Hagar.
Billy Coppedge: Is is it? Taylor?
Andy Miller III: Tam Tamar Tamar, yeah. Who broke through? Who burst.
Billy Coppedge: Breaks. Your, yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man, yeah, it's a great.
Billy Coppedge: Good, so good.
Andy Miller III: Man.
Billy Coppedge: Ugly, so.
Andy Miller III: And there's a lot a lot to hear like going down, coming up. There's something about the up and down nature of that. And then the Lord going out in front of them. Oh, and and I'll I'll always think of that passage to is having a connection to provenient grace, like the God who goes before us and goes out in front.
Billy Coppedge: Well, Andy even, and I'll finish with this. But even the idea
Billy Coppedge: at the end of the day, what I love about orality is orality is people. It's interpersonal communication.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, which?
Billy Coppedge: It's not just in a if it's interpersonal communication, it's not just between me and you.
Billy Coppedge: but it's between us and God. So you go back to Mary and Martha, or Mary and Jesus. But then here notice the oral component where David is communicating with God, do I?
Billy Coppedge: So there's even this kind of beautiful kind of interchange between God and David about how to handle the choices that he's facing.
Andy Miller III: I'd.
Billy Coppedge: That that's that's helping me.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Billy Coppedge: Lot of choices.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Shall I go? Shall I go?
Billy Coppedge: Exactly. That's right. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I yeah, that I think that echoes a lot of the Psalms like, Are you gonna go with me? God, are you gonna come with me. Yeah. Oh, Billy, so good! I'm sorry we don't have longer. Bless you.
Billy Coppedge: Good, Andy. Thank you.
Andy Miller III: Praying for your family, hoping that things come through here soon. We've been following your journey. If you find Billy's email address and show notes. Love. You should check out what he and their family are doing. It's beautiful work, and we're so thankful for Billy, and thanks for spending time here, with me on the podcast.
Billy Coppedge: Thank you, Andy. It's been a joy.