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Conversations from the Hype Network; Business innovation, technology, and current events from a faith-filled perspective.
Arun: Alright, cool.
So let's get started.
Episode 25.
Hi pod.
Hey.
Jens Jacob: 25.
25.
Wow.
Wow.
Quarter over a on to Snu.
You really are.
Yeah.
That's incredible.
Well,
Arun: I'm glad to introduce Jen's Jacob,
special guest for this week's pod.
Hey, nice.
On the here, we have a lot to discuss on
this pod, but I think I'd be remiss if not
to give you a little bit of time to talk
about yourself, um, your story, especially
as like an Indian person that broke out.
did arts, you know, got into
the creative space, you know,
Ps Vance: you're not a doctor,
you're not a doctor or engineer.
You don't want me to be
your doctor or an engineer.
Yeah,
Jens Jacob: I appreciate it.
So yeah.
What's your story?
Uh, so basically grew up in a, uh,
Indian Christian household, um,
was, was born and brought up in New
York and then grew up in Florida.
And right around the time of like,
you know, you're trying to figure out
what you want to do with your life and
career, you know, obviously there's
a lot of expectations and, um, to,
to the joke of like going into a very
standard, you know, um, uh, career path.
And I think at the time I
thought it was going to be.
Computer science or something like that.
Right.
Like that was just like a
default knowing nothing about it.
I just kind of said, yeah, sure.
Like, that's what I'll
like start my degree in.
Um, and then just, you would find
various ways to like, um, create, I
wouldn't even say necessarily creative.
It's just create, like whether it's.
Uh, drawing, graphic design,
building something in your backyard.
Like you would just find
opportunities to create.
And I think I loved doing that.
It didn't matter what medium
or form that, that, that took.
So I wouldn't say like, if you're
looking for the story of like, I
always knew I wanted to be a filmmaker.
That wasn't necessarily my story.
I just, it just ended up becoming
the ultimate form of creation for
me, uh, at the, uh, you know, like
as I've evolved into that place.
And, uh, so it started off with
like graphic design, then it kind
of morphed into motion design.
I started working for shortly
after, um, uh, high school.
I started working for the
Tempe lightning, which is the
hockey team out in, uh, Tampa.
Ps Vance: Wow.
Jens Jacob: And did a lot of their like
in house motion graphics and stuff you see
on the scoreboards and things like that.
That was kind of like my, maybe like big
foray into like a professional career.
Didn't think it was like a,
a profession prior to that.
It was like a hobby.
I was doing a lot of.
Church graphics or you know, like
Ps Vance: motion graphics when
that was introduced to the church.
It was like revolution.
Yeah
Jens Jacob: Yeah, it's kind of
funny to say at the time I was in
the middle of I don't even know if
I could say this On this podcast,
but it was like there was no middle.
It was either doing church
graphics or club promo videos.
Ps Vance: All in the same day.
Jens Jacob: You actually reused.
Community building.
No, yeah.
So it was funny.
Like I did a lot of Indian parties.
Not that I specifically did it, but I
like, I like did a lot of the videos.
Like I was like known
for that in one world.
And then I was known for like
church videos in the other.
Yeah.
It's pretty funny.
I've been redeemed since,
of course, let it be noted.
Um, so then I, I think, um, long
story long, I kind of got into this
existential crisis of like, well, if
I really want to take this seriously,
I either have to go potentially go get
a degree in it, go to film school or,
and I started, uh, shortly afterwards.
My professional career started to
really take off locally where I started
working for the Temple of Lightning,
did some stuff for ESPN locally.
Like, um, we were part of this
show called Gruden's, uh, QB camp.
Oh, I remember that show.
That's cool.
Crazy, right?
It's a great show.
I was, I was a part of season one for that
and, Crazy wouldn't have thought that that
was going to be the show that it became.
Went on to like be nominated and winning.
Oh, it was an amazing show.
Yeah.
And just to be around and funny
enough, I'm not into sports.
So like, it was, it was like the most
like unusual, like role for me and all
my cousins and friends were jealous
in terms of like being a part of it.
But.
I didn't really care, but at the same
time I could still see the passion.
Yep.
that.
So you were on the
Ps Vance: production set on that project?
Yeah, I was,
Jens Jacob: I was like a gaffer
slash second cam op on that.
There you go.
Yeah.
Started from the bottom.
Started from the bottom.
Actually, that was pretty high.
I'm surprised I didn't start from
PA on, on something like that.
That's
Ps Vance: interesting that
sets have those role, gaffer.
Right.
Like, wow.
Yeah.
Jens Jacob: That's so interesting.
And, uh, I mean, obviously ESPN is a
big name, but what we're talking about
back then, it was like very small.
It was like, Couple lights and
like, you know, like grew it in and
like a quarterback just talking,
it was like an interview set up.
So it wasn't that crazy of a, of a,
of a set up to do or production to do.
And then, uh, decided I
wanted to take it seriously.
And I was going through an existential
crisis at the, at the time,
because my, my family, like, you
know, they wanted the best for me.
So what they knew is the best was what
they knew as success and what they
knew, like the career path would be.
Ps Vance: Like, parents, I'm a
gaffer, what are you talking about?
Yeah, yeah, don't worry.
I'm a gaffer for ESPN.
Yeah, what were they saying in that time?
Jens Jacob: I don't think they fully
understood, you know, is a lot of it.
Like, they didn't know what I was doing.
It looked like a hobby.
It looked like ministry.
It looked like, you know, other
things than like a career.
Or like something that you can
make money off or sustainable.
Like money off to take care of a family.
I think that's what they were looking for.
Are your parents first generation?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wait, which one is first generation?
'cause I thought I was first generation.
This is, this is a good thing.
I always, I discuss, this is like
a great thing to like, clarify.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think of first generation as
in that I was born here first.
Yes.
Oh, is that what that that
is the, that is the, okay.
Yeah.
Definition.
Yeah.
Sorry.
So they, they immigrated over
and I'm, I'm first generation.
Okay.
You know, they, they wanted the best
for me and they, there were some clear
paths for, for what that looked like.
And I remember there was one particular
conversation I had with my dad.
And it was around God's will for my life.
My dad's a pastor.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a PK.
So I'm very challenged and very That's
Ps Vance: another dynamic.
Yeah,
Jens Jacob: yeah.
It was, um, some, some deep rooted issues.
No, I'm kidding.
Um
Ps Vance: He's like,
you're not a doctor, Dad.
Jens Jacob: I'm a doctor for the Lord.
Well, this is, yeah, this is what's
interesting about that because, um, You
know, one of the first things that he
said to me, which I'm grateful for, was
he said, you know, pray about it and
see what God's will in your life was.
And at the time, I don't
think I've ever done that.
Wow.
Uh, which is weird to say
that I grew up in the church.
You know, it was probably
like 18, 19 at the time.
But I don't think I had ever, like,
thought about prayer or as a way to
align myself with what God's will was.
Right.
Versus that it was like a wish list
or like a, uh, you know, Like a genie.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, so that happened and then, uh,
did that went out to my room and
like prayed, you know, for that.
And I felt like I did get clarity on
like, this was what I was supposed to do.
I was supposed to move to LA and which is
so weird because like, I'm sure anybody
hearing like move to LA, like that's like
such a like aha moment, like in terms of
like anybody would want to move to LA.
But for me, I didn't really
want to go to LA at the time.
It was actually the scariest option out of
the three options that I was considering.
And it was either.
Go to Miami, go to New York or go to LA.
Cause that was kind of like where
major markets were in terms of
like the film industry at the time.
Miami was so close to Tampa that it
felt like it was so close to home.
New York, I like knew
a lot of people there.
So I felt like it was a, another
way to be comfortable because I just
had like friends and family there.
And then LA, I knew nobody.
So it was like, survive or live
in a box, is what it felt like.
And I didn't want to be the prodigal son.
I didn't want to come
back, fail, come back home.
That wasn't even an option
for me, even though I knew
biblically it was supposed to be.
But it wasn't in my head,
it was not an option.
And so I felt like, okay, I got clarity.
I'm going to ask God.
Uh, and, and, you know, it
prayed about it, got clarity.
I went back and told my dad about it and
I was like, dad, I think I got clarity.
Like I'm supposed to move to LA.
He's like, okay.
And he laughed at me.
Like it was really painful.
Pray again.
And you know, I, I, I, uh, as much as
I joke around about like some of the
stuff that, that, that had happened,
it hurt at the time because it was
like, yo, you told me to do this.
And I'm very grateful.
I, my dad's an amazing person and
has been such a huge supporter
since, but it was hard for them.
That, that's all I can
kind of chalk it up to.
Like they, they don't know how to
like, you know, you're, everybody's
learning how to parent in real time.
And on top of that, you're trying
to instill wisdom spiritually.
And then also.
Go by what your definition of that is.
Like you, you can only define success
sometimes by like your standards or your
kind of like, uh, upbringing in that.
And so that turned into a huge argument.
And I was like, I was like, dad,
you told me to like, pray about it.
And like, now you're
telling me that it's not it.
And, and I was like, well,
you tell me you're the pastor.
Like you tell me what, what it
is that you have in my life.
And I was really surprised because
he had a pretty clear answer and
it was um, he said well I was like,
well, so what am I supposed to do?
He's like, well, you're supposed
to finish school And at the time
I was I was gonna drop I did drop
out of school Yeah to pursue this
not advocating for that on the pod.
You should go to school you know a
degree and all that but I I didn't
necessarily need it for what I was doing.
Sure.
That was that that was it.
Um, and You So then he said, he
said, Oh, like it's for you to
like finish your, your degree.
And then I was like, I
just kept asking questions.
I was like, in what?
And then he's like, Oh, a business.
And then I was like, and then what?
And then he would say, um, for you to go
get a job in like, uh, and work at a bank.
I was like, Oh, okay.
And then what?
And then he said, for you to
be an executive in that bank.
And then I was like, and then what?
Uh, to get married and
then it just kept going.
Right.
And then where it ended was, um,
and then for you to like, like, uh,
help lead the church essentially.
And that's when I kind
of reconciled in my head.
I was like, Oh, my dad is God in
this particular scenario, right.
In the sense that like it
was his will at the time.
And again, like he, I don't think
he realized it in that sense.
He was just trying to guide me in the best
way that he thought he could guide me.
But it really drove me into, I stopped
believing in God at that, at that moment.
It was kind of a really surreal moment
because I was like, Oh, this is just
a way for parents to instill or to,
to, to put a boogeyman version of like
power control for control in your life.
And that's kind of how I kind of shaped.
Theology at that point, and
it was really bad for me.
Like, and I didn't really, I haven't
shared that like really publicly
like, uh, into more recently.
And I don't blame my parents either.
That's the one thing that I don't
think it was their fault or their
ill intention or anything like that.
And so then this is kind
of how I ended up leaving.
I ended up, uh, just deciding
to like double down and I'm
like, I'm moving, I'm going.
And decided to move to LA,
but I needed their blessing.
It was kind of this like catch 22 of like,
I want to leave and get out of here and
do my own thing, but I can't leave until
like, I know that you're okay with it.
And so thankfully they, they were like,
okay, like go try it out for like three
months and then like, you know, come back.
So that's kind of how I left.
It was in the, did this, uh, like, um,
this arrangement that I was just going to
just go there for, for, for just a season.
And then.
Didn't know a single soul out there I
had some family in Orange County and
they let me like sleep on their couch
for like the first month as I like You
know try to figure it out and get on my
own two feet never like moved away from
home at that point Didn't really like
have any kind of net that was there,
you know, I think had barely like, maybe
like four grand to my name at the time.
Like it wasn't like any kind of
responsible, you know, decision
in terms of like moving out and,
and, and, and being on my own.
And then, um, when I got there, I got
really, I would say it's like a, the
perfect blend of like luck favor, And
will that, that happened in terms of a lot
of the early parts of my, my, my career,
I started, even though I had started
doing things at maybe a higher level in
terms of, um, roles in Tampa, I decided
I wasn't going to tell anybody in LA,
like how much I knew I was just going to.
really start from the bottom this time.
And so I ended up PAing, interning,
whatever I could do to just be on
set because I remember And PAing
Ps Vance: is getting coffee and
Jens Jacob: Exactly.
It's like the lowest position in,
in, in, in the film, film industry.
And I got to like get on
the first set through.
a friend that was like, um, my
cousin's friend at the time.
I wasn't even like really close with
him and he let me come on his set,
which was a music video for Neon Trees.
I don't know if you remember
the song animal back in the day.
Like it was like their next big like song,
which I don't know if it did well or not.
But, um, so we were doing
the music video for that.
And I was just like in, I
was just a director's friend.
I wasn't even a PA.
I was just there to like watch the set.
Mm hmm.
It was the first time that I got to be
on a major set and it blew my mind like
I was like I was doing like Child's play
compared to like what they were doing.
I mean, there was like 60 people on set
and, you know, transforming an entire
like space to like, you know, uh, I had
never experienced anything like that.
And I was like, Oh, this
is, this is for sure.
Like, I want to know more about this.
I want to learn.
I want to understand.
So I didn't know anything at the time.
I didn't know what a producer
did and didn't know it.
So something like awakened
Ps Vance: in you, like
something was ignited.
Yeah.
Jens Jacob: Wow.
You know, I say now, like what, the thing
that I love about the film industry is,
It feels like to me that it's like, in
and of it's current, is like the, the
highest form of, uh, of art and creation.
And what I mean by that is it,
it's like, It's the paramount
because it requires all the other
art forms For it to be filmmaking.
Yeah, right you take music out you take
picture out you take um Drawings out
design fashion, whatever it might be.
It's not film.
You don't have film anymore
Ps Vance: Wow,
Jens Jacob: and I I think
that's what I loved about it.
The most is that I could be a part of
all of this Instead of having to like
maybe just pick one like be it be a
part of a label or music or something
like that So yeah, my first year was all
music videos Um, really cool sets from,
uh, Neon Trees, Nicki Minaj, Bruno Mars,
um, Lil Wayne, Nickelback, like, you
know, you name it, been able to So from
Ps Vance: club promoter to music
video, come on, that's awesome.
That's
Jens Jacob: awesome.
Yeah, it's kind of fitting, right?
Like the, the, the video side of it.
And then, Second year was commercials.
I got to be a part of like some really
cool commercial sets like I remember
Second year like the second commercial
I was doing I was signing an NDA and
I didn't even know what for like I
had signed On to the job before he'd
been knowing like what what it was for
and it ended up being an Apple spot
Like we did the iPad 3 launch which
was like such a surreal moment cuz it
was such a Apple fanboy, you know, to
be a part of that and see the iPad.
Yeah.
And to be a part of that and like
finally see a product release before
it got released, like that was an
unbelievable feeling at the time.
Yeah.
Um, I can continue, but you tell me.
So this is
Ps Vance: interesting because Your
career is really starting to take off
now from music videos to commercials
for Apple Obviously somewhere in there
you're simplifying it, but you worked
your way up from PA to you know getting
higher up in the production What's
your parents thinking at this point?
Arun: Yeah, it must have been
well past three months, right?
This is like year two,
right, of your journey?
Jens Jacob: Yeah, a lot of
happened in the first six months.
I mean, I went from PA to
producing within six months.
Oh, wow.
That's God.
Yeah.
That's God.
And that's what I mean.
Like, there was just like this
perfect storm of things that
were happening at the time.
Um, this producer that I was working a
lot with that, that, that got me onto
a lot of the, the, the gigs, the, the
story that I even shared at Flowcon.
Um, She had really took me under her
wing and she was just starting to launch.
It was kind of like right timing
because she wasn't like a really well
known producer, but she's like now
the queen of music video producing.
Um, and she's done like, she has
probably more credits than anybody
that I know in terms of music videos.
And I was just starting to
get onto ground level of that.
And it just kind of was like right time.
And it was, it was a lot of
just because I was there.
So one of the parts that I love
sharing about my story is that
I, I, I didn't really share with
people how much I knew about it.
I just constantly.
that I'm willing to do whatever it
takes to like, be a part of that.
Well,
Ps Vance: that's what we say
actually in leadership, right?
It's not actually about capability,
it's about availability.
Yeah, very true.
Will you be around?
Will you say yes?
Honestly, I
Jens Jacob: showed up to her
apartment, which was the production
office at the time, like, Even when
she didn't ask, it was just like,
I wanted to be around them so much.
Gen Z, are we
Ps Vance: listening?
Yeah, please.
Yeah.
Jens Jacob: Honestly, like I took any
kind of pride that I had, that I worked
for ESPN or did any of this stuff.
And I was like, you know what?
I, I want to learn from
this person and this team.
So whatever I can do to do that.
And I think from just being
available, being around, and then.
Seeing that she could task me
something and I would go above and
beyond, or I would figure it out.
A lot of filmmaking is problem
solving at the end of the day.
So if you can be a good problem
solver, I think you can go into
any industry frankly, frankly,
not even just filmmaking.
But I think that skill that I
had early on, I just knew that
I need to take problems off of
her plate and help solve them.
Ps Vance: There's so many
great principles in that.
And obviously it led to this rise.
There's favor, but you, we
partner with God, right?
And so there are characteristics
and principles that he works through
that you're learning in real time and
you're seeing the fruit of it, right?
And so, you know, your, your parents
probably, Are they changing their tune?
Like what's happening?
Yeah, sorry.
Jens Jacob: I just realized that
that was the original question.
I, in the first three to six months, I
think it was still very hard for them.
And I would say where it really changed
for them is when, when I, when I had
started, uh, at the time, Cypher Films,
I went from like freelancing on a lot of
these big jobs to then creating my own
company and then really starting to just
develop my own clientele and, excuse me.
And then, um, I started doing some
non profit work, and I think when
they saw that my talent could, could
still uphold, like, faith in God, I
think they just were, like, internally
afraid that I was going to L.
A.
and that I was ultimately
turning from that.
Sure.
That's, I think, at the core of,
like, their fear and why they were
not okay with, with a lot of it.
But But I think once they solved that,
I think that changed and it was like
one of the first times in my life that
they said that they were proud of me.
I had not heard those words
prior to moving to LA.
You're the first.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it's just me.
I'm still waiting.
I'm still looking for that.
Um, I think that's when they started
to realize when they weren't close
to me in proximity that words really
mattered because my, our family wasn't
a words of affirmation type of thing.
family.
It was acts of service and a
lot of, I'm taking care of you.
You're living like, it's
similar in Asian culture.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think once, once, once the
separation was there and I, you know,
I was on the other side of the country,
I think that's when they started to
realize I need to tell him I love him.
I need to tell them that I'm proud of him.
And I, I'm so proud of my parents
for even getting to that place.
Um, yeah.
And so, and, and a lot of it, me and
my brother tried to like model, like we
would say at first and then, but there
are still families now where that's weird.
Like even my wife's family, like
my wife jokes around that, like
you're an I love you family.
And I'm like, I didn't even
realize that was a thing.
Arun: Can I ask though, you said when you
left for LA at that point, your faith was
kind of, had changed because of like the
interactions with your father at the time.
But then at this point, you
know, it sounds like your
faith had kind of come back.
Was there a.
Pivoting moment when you were in L.
A.
or came back.
Jens Jacob: Yeah, great question.
I, a lot of it, uh, being in L.
A.
was kind of like me kind of a
clean slate into everything.
Like it was clean slate to career,
friends, uh, faith, all of it.
And I think from that I was able
to discover, uh, what I believed
versus what my parents believed
and what, what I was starting to
like, um, uh, distill for myself.
And, You know, some of it was, um, it
was a very lonely, like first year in LA.
Um, I was, not a lot of people know this,
but I was like sleeping on couches, like,
I mean, meaning like, uh, a lot of LA
is like shared living and you're just
trying to like make it, make it work.
And so like, like the two, first two or
three places that I had, I deliberately
didn't even like get a bed in my bedroom.
I wanted it to feel like an office
and I just wanted to hustle.
So I just was like living on a couch.
literally the first three
years of being there.
And it was very lonely process.
And I think once you go through something
like that, or like when you're journeying
or like you're, you're starting something
new and when there isn't anybody,
particularly when it comes to distraction,
you kind of only have God in that.
And I, I felt that like deeply
that, that I knew God had me
and I, and I, I had to discover.
what my relationship with, with
Christ was at that, that point.
And so in really like, you know,
going through, through that process of
allowing myself to feel at that level
and, and bring myself to there, I think
I was able to then get plugged into
the right church and, uh, was able to,
yeah, just really discover what, what
faith, it was like a reconstruction
of, of faith at the time for me,
um, a big pivotal point in my faith.
journey was trying to understand,
like, purpose in life.
I'm trying to understand, like, how does
this align with purpose and all that.
And at the time, I was
really big into TED Talks.
That's kind of like where I went to for As
Ps Vance: we all were.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Old school TED Talks, bring those back.
Jens Jacob: In a way, that was like
Bible for me at the time because
I was consuming that more than
anything else in terms of inspiration
and knowledge and understanding.
And, you know, I, I, I think this stat is
true, but at the time, Pastor Rick Warren
was the only one, only pastor that knew
that had given a TED talk at the time.
And um, he had did a TED talk
around, um, the success and struggles
that happened after releasing the
second, uh, bestselling book after
the Bible, Purpose Driven Life.
Ps Vance: Wow.
Jens Jacob: And it's crazy
to even think that, right?
Like that's how successful that
that book was, like the Bible
almost seems like a given to be most
successful, but then you were the.
next, you know, human created,
you know, most successful book.
And he was talking a little bit
about the book and admittedly at
the time, I hadn't read the book.
I just kind of knew about it because
everybody and their moms were going
through the, the life groups and
stuff with, with, with that book.
And part of the proposition of the book
was, um, he shares a story about, um,
uh, Moses and how Moses was a shepherd.
And he kind of like.
Used that analogy of like, what, what,
what was in his hand at the time?
And his hand in, inside of his
hand was good, was a staff.
Right?
A staff.
Yeah.
And, and, um, there was a very practical
element to that in terms of leading,
because it was, um, you're taking a
herd of sheep and then you're using
the staff to like pull or push, I
can't remember the exact analogy.
Mm-Hmm.
. But it was, it was, it was
very profound at the time.
And this idea of like,
what, what was in your hand?
Like kind of distilling it to that
question in terms of like how purpose can.
You know, be manifested through
or God's will in your life.
It was very profound to me
because prior to that, it was
always the Bible, the pulpit.
I was going to then potentially
take over the church and that was
ministry or that was the way that you
would have purpose in your life was
to do something within the church.
Could never see it prior to
that as outside of the church.
And so at the time, what was so
profound about that was when I asked
myself, well, well, what's in my hand?
It was a camera.
Good.
And.
You know to to understand that that
could be My influence my power and one
of the things that he was the analogy
that he gave to that was um, You know
for somebody like a basketball player
what's in their hand is obviously a
basketball But the identity of that
basketball continues even thereafter
Ps Vance: the
Jens Jacob: Him her
playing basketball, right?
This person will always remain a
basketball player to like everybody.
And so then what do you do with that?
What do you do with that influence?
What do you do with that?
And so for me, it was this camera
and like, you know, what it would
look like in terms of films.
And so it was very clear to me at the time
that God was going to use me in this way.
Whether that's overt or not, I'm not
saying that I'm a, a faith film or like
a faith filmmaker in the sense of that
I'm only going to make Christian films.
But there was a lot of purpose that he
had instilled in me Yeah in what I was
going to be able to do with this but any
Ps Vance: film you make
you're going to glorify god
Jens Jacob: exactly
Ps Vance: And that that's
what is such a beautiful.
Um thing.
I'm taking away from your story.
Thanks for sharing your story.
That's incredible that I, I, there
were so many times I wanted to stop
you, but I was just like, okay.
Oh no, I ran this up.
Stop me.
No, no, no, no.
Cause there was so much principles we
could have pulled out, but people are
smart on this podcast that listen to it.
They'll pull out the principle,
but something that I took
away was the goodness of God.
the goodness of God in your life.
But what's so interesting is the
way that the goodness of God works
in and through our lives is not
necessarily how we would write it.
So your story was rejection, your story
was poverty, sleeping on a couch, right?
Your story was, you know, really
starting from ground level.
Your story was, um, you know,
uh, some failure, right?
All these things, but actually
God used all those things.
And it's really the power of our
perspective sometimes to understand
that yes, God is in the success, but
God is most definitely in the rejection.
God is most definitely in the loneliness.
Actually, You know, what scripture
informs us is that actually in
the suffering and in the struggles
where he's closest, right?
And it's actually in that process
that you found God for yourself.
Which then became the catalyst for
reconciliation between you and your dad.
Yes.
Coincidentally, right?
And so I think that is that is so good.
I think also too, you know that revelation
of hey Actually my parents purpose doesn't
need to be limited to being a pastor in
a church, but actually what God put in
my hand, even outside the four walls of
the church can be used to glorify him.
What an unlock.
Jens Jacob: Right.
Ps Vance: My goodness.
Yeah.
It was so
Jens Jacob: profound.
Ps Vance: That's like the
purpose of this podcast.
Yeah.
Right.
That's the purpose of what
we did last week, FlowCon.
So, yeah, let's talk about that
Arun: actually.
So I know you also on top of Cypher,
you're also in the FinTech space as well.
You're a CEO, co founder of Saturation.
And so recently we just had Overflow
kicked off their inaugural FlowCon.
You were there.
You were able to speak.
Can you guys, I wasn't there.
I unfortunately missed out.
Oh, you weren't there.
Yeah.
So like I know the FOMO.
Matthew, can you guys give
me a taste of what happened?
Give me a recap of what happened.
Ps Vance: Well, it was really, we've
been saying this all week, a collision
of collaboration between this hype
network, right, that we're doing
right here and, uh, overflow and vibe
church and just kind not even just
blurring the lines, but removing the
lines from what church ministry and
marketplace can look like, right?
It's really hard to explain what
was captured, um, in that room,
but we'll, we'll try our best.
We're missing, uh, one very
important component here, Pastor
Adam, who's traveling to one of our
international campuses right now.
Uh, but Jens was in the room.
What was your take?
I mean, you were.
One of our panel speakers, by the way,
guys, um, if you haven't caught up, uh, if
I fast forward Jen's story a little bit,
uh, God continues, uh, to be so good and
bring favor and blessing on his career.
If you haven't seen yet after death
released this past year, um, and it
was, uh, across over 2, 800 theaters.
I'm getting that right across the nation.
It's now streaming on all major
streaming platforms right now.
And it's not a.
Christian movie, but it's definitely
a movie that provokes thought
because everybody's gonna die, right?
And it's a deep dive, um, into that,
hopefully compelling people to ask some
pretty important questions, um, which I
think can be a gateway to point to Jesus.
Uh, but you know, because of just how
God has been moving your career, we
invited you to be a panel speaker.
So you were part of FloCon.
What was your experience?
Jens Jacob: You know, I
didn't know what to expect.
I think I had zero expectations in terms
of just, I'm going to show up in that,
but I was profoundly impacted a lot of
the conversations that were happening and
just the community you guys have curated.
I didn't expect to meet a lot of
like, you know, amazing people.
And, and I just love that there is
that blurring of the line or like the,
the idea that like you can do more
in the marketplace and you can, you
know, um, impact, you know, people
and do ministry at the same time.
Uh, so I love, and I, so I felt like I
was a student to it, you know, in some
ways I was learning just as much as I
was, you know, uh, maybe up on stage, but.
I loved it.
I mean, I think what you guys are
creating here and to be a small part of
that, I feel very honored to take part.
Ps Vance: It's we now, cause
you've been part of multiple
hype events and, um, and this.
Where's my card?
Jens Jacob: Do I get like a platinum,
like a tatami card or something?
Yeah, we got you.
We got you.
Well,
Ps Vance: well, well, I'll say this,
um, in the inaugural Flowcon, just some
numbers, right, that we can reflect on
because we had the, you know, you know,
ye of little faith moment where we only
printed 200 shirts because we thought
that was kind of the scope of people,
entrepreneurs, innovators, you know, uh,
kingdom minded business people that would
be attracted to something like this.
Were we wrong?
My gosh, it was really incredible.
Over 350 Uh, paid registered guests, um,
that made an investment, uh, probably
half of them flew in, uh, you know,
invested into accommodation to be with
us for just a few days, skipped out
on work or paused, you know, their
entrepreneurial endeavors, uh, to really
invest into being part of what I would
call history in the making the very,
very first flow con, uh, of those 350
people, 50 churches were represented.
Which is really, really cool.
So pastors, entrepreneurial, uh, you
know, uh, pastors were in the room.
Then you had, uh, over
190 companies represented.
And so some of those companies, we
had the founder, we had the CEO,
we had the owner of the business.
in the room.
Um, you know, for some of the companies,
you know, it was executive team, C suite,
uh, or even just directors and managers.
If it was a larger company, right?
We had over 70 cities represented
with people traveling internationally.
We had a group from Switzerland
from Zurich come in.
We had people traveling in from Mexico,
people flying in from India coming in.
And it was just an incredible time.
I think what was the common thread.
that I felt in the room, I'd love your
take Jens, is that there was an earnest
hunger and appetite to innovate, to
build, whether it was a tech company,
a film, a real estate company.
It was actually spanning a lot
of different industries, but an
earnestness to build for the kingdom,
for honoring God, for glorifying God.
Is that the sense that you got?
Jens Jacob: Yeah.
I mean, I, I had originally thought
just because of, um, Obviously
Overflow's core base being churches.
I thought it was gonna be more like
sure just maybe like church centric,
but the fact that a lot of them were
startups and even maybe churches or
startups for churches or vice versa.
Right.
I thought that was like
really cool to see.
I wasn't, I wasn't expecting a lot
of that, like the different types of
marketplaces that were represented there.
Arun: Yeah.
Jens Jacob: Yeah.
Arun: Yeah.
And I think it's really interesting, at
least Uh, two hype events ago, um, one
of the through lines is like you, you
mentioned it like being a problem solver
spans across all different kind of like
scopes of like what you do for work.
There you go.
And this is like a, a bringing together
of all those different places of work.
And everybody there is a problem solver,
but they want to do it for the kingdom.
So like, this is like, It's
kind of that's, that's what
I assumed was happening.
It's good to hear.
That's kind of there.
Well,
Ps Vance: the caliber of
people in the room too.
Um, so we can talk about a
couple of the panel speakers.
We had Chiwa Chin in the room.
We had one of my board members,
Mackie Saturday in the room.
We had Nancy Duarte, like it was great.
So Chiwa, you know, early
investor into the Facebook, right.
When it was called the Facebook,
that's how early it was.
You know, um, early investor
into, uh, TikTok when it was
called Bite Dance, right?
Early investor into Spotify, right?
We got Nancy Duarte, um, who's done,
uh, so much work with Apple, actually
her first client and currently
existing client, but she is the goat
in terms of presentation design.
And then Mackie Saturday created
the brand for Instagram and also in
the spiritual space for the Bible
project, which we all know and
love probably if you're listening.
to this podcast.
And what was so impacting to me is that
we had these people that are at the top
of their game, telling stories about how
there was multiple inflection points.
There was multiple moments in their
career where they could either
serve profit or people, or they
can either serve, um, you know, the
bottom line or they can serve God.
And how core to each and every one
of them at the end of the day is how
am I going to align myself, kind of
like your story, with God's will.
How do I make sure that my
career, my company, my business
endeavors is glorifying God?
And when you hear that, from
people that are at the top of
their game, it hits different.
It's like, it was like this, like great
permission that filled the room because
in the room there was some successful
people, but I would say the majority
of like people in there would probably
identify as I'm still trying to make it.
Right.
And so there was this kind of
collective, like permission in
the room of like, okay, cool.
Like I can, I can work on
advancing in my career.
or, or advancing my company, not
at the sake of my Christianity,
actually in alignment with my
passion and my love for God.
And I felt like that permission
was palpable in the room.
But even the caliber of the question
askers, Arun, it was hilarious.
There's this one person that asked
a question while we were on a
panel, I think, uh, he actually
goes to Vive Oakland and he was
like, Hey, so I got a question.
We just figured out how to
turn air into fertilizer.
Wow.
When should we start the company?
Yeah.
First of all, everybody was just
like, wait, what did he just say?
And then Mackie was like, Does it work?
And he's like, yeah, yeah.
It took us five years, but like
breakthrough, like it works.
Everybody was like, get started.
This is you're saying you're God.
What is happening?
It's almost like he needed
Jens Jacob: that moment to
be the permission to start.
But
Ps Vance: that was even just the
caliber of the question askers.
And so it was 350 people like this,
um, collaborating with each other,
meeting each other, sharing ideas.
And we say this and we said it all
throughout the conference that you're one
connection away from your breakthrough.
I don't know of all the stories yet.
Arun: Yes.
I've heard
Ps Vance: just a couple of them, but I get
the sense that in a few months, in a few
years, we're going to start hearing these
stories of these breakthrough innovations,
these breakthrough companies, these
breakthrough founders, and they just might
point back to what happened at Flowcon.
That'd be cool.
Arun: No, that's amazing.
And I just want to say, I,
I saw the announcement 2025
FloCon already in the books.
So I just want this to be your pitch plan
ahead, you know, plan ahead to make it.
I know for sure I'm going to be there.
So I'm really excited to see
what, you know, this kind of the
fruit that's produced from this.
So, um, and just kind of on that
topic, I think a lot of the stuff
about what you're saying, even hearing
your story, I think a lot of the
stuff that, um, is really powerful.
Even if you're building products,
the number one thing you need to be
able to do is to Storytell, right?
Like, how do I tell the story around
the product that I'm building?
Even for this guy that's making
air defertilizer, like he needs to
be able to tell that story, right?
Cause like, I'm an engineer.
And so from my point of view, I always
thought it was, you know, you just
build good tech and like they'll come,
you build it and they'll come, right?
Um, but for you, you're in the
storytelling business and we've
talked about like deeper connections
and building those relationships.
What is it about storytelling
that makes you so passionate?
Jens Jacob: I mean, for, for me at
least, like, um, like our company, the
types of stories that we tell, the crazy
thing about that is like we, we do a
lot of like true stories, like a lot of
things that might be already out there.
And sometimes it's because
they're stranger than fiction.
And for us, it's like, it's, it's
the basic level of like how humans
connect is like sharing stories
and being able to relate and to
understand, you know, what this
person is going through, going through
their, walking through their shoes.
And I think.
It's like a basic connection level
component that often gets missed, that
you know, you think you might have
to go right to the product, you might
have to go right to the, you know,
sound or music or whatever it might be.
Um, and people miss that, that there's a
lost art in that sometimes of being able
to like find, um, find positioning within
like how you tell your story and like,
you know, what, what you, um, what, what
you can, can kind of glean off of that.
Um, I don't know if that
answered your question, but.
Arun: No, yeah, yeah.
I think, I think that's ironic.
It's like, so maybe like an example
would be, um, pretty interesting.
So like super last Superbowl,
we had another one of
those, like Jesus campaigns.
I don't know if you
guys, he gets us, right.
And so like, um, I'll just play it
in the background, but essentially
it was trying to break down.
Um, kind of the more modern view
of what like love, uh, would
look like from Jesus as well.
Um, and so just curious, like, you know,
there's this opportunities for, you know,
in the faith space and in like media to be
able to get the, the word out about Jesus.
But sometimes, you know, like there's
a lot of controversy about, you know,
kind of how this, this came out and
if you saw it, you know, like what
love truly is and what they're trying
to portray, um, versus, you know,
what maybe some of the more like.
conservative Christians would say, um,
or what's really in the Bible, right?
About, about this stuff.
So, um, yeah, like in terms of when
you're telling stories, especially cause
you're trying to do that crossover with
faith as well, like how, how difficult
is it to, to really get this right?
Jens Jacob: I mean, it's very difficult
just because of, um, you have a lot of
opinions, um, and particularly when you're
talking about something as core as faith,
there's a lot of identity that kind of
like comes like just inherently with that.
And so.
And it could be true for this, right?
Like if, if it's slightly like opposing,
maybe something that's very core to
like biblical, um, and, and a lot of
the stuff that we, we like to touch is
that is like almost like, um, modern
day retakes or like extra biblical and
like how that like applies to your life.
Like, I always say that like, um, faith
and, and the, and the story of, of Christ
and redemption, it's like in, in my DNA,
it's not necessarily always like, Right
on the front full front side of like the
the the screen of of what we do um So
it's it's a constant like art imbalance,
but I think if the principles are there
You know the fruits of the spirit the
like kind of redemption kind of elements
like that's the kind of stuff that we
love Touching on and I think that dna
you'll see across all of our projects.
It doesn't matter if it's a commercial
for huggies or if it's a um You
It doesn't always have to be as
overt, I think, in my opinion.
Um, for me, it's principle.
Like, you know, when you can carry that
through, um, it resonates with people.
I think for the people that are of
faith, they automatically, you know,
immediately will like see it and feel it.
And for the ones that aren't.
They'll know that there's
something special there.
They just don't know.
They might call it something else.
Yeah, it might be labeled the universe
It might be labeled, you know, um Faith
or you know, but we know what what it is,
Arun: you know I'd be curious to see what
both of your takes are on this and it
seems like I don't think there's malicious
intent when it comes to generating this
kind of content But it feels like they
open it up a little bit more because
they want to attract more people to it.
And then the hope is that once
they are in this space, you know,
it's like all are welcome, you
know, that saying that was there.
And then once they're in that
space, then, you know, they'll
just let Jesus take over.
I'm just curious what you think.
It's like, is that the misstep?
It's just like, You want to kind of
open up the sales, you know, funnel
a little bit more and just get people
in and then they hope that you can
kind of correct it as they get in.
Ps Vance: Hey, that's a, that's a
good, um, kind of perspective, right?
Uh, it does kind of feel
sales funnel y, huh?
But that's not what
spirituality is, right?
At the day, God saves, um, and,
You know, uh, there's certain
ingredients and dynamics that
are important to that process.
Right.
And so, um, you know, the acknowledgement
that we are a sinner and there's this
process called repentance, right?
Those are all like literal, critical
components of, uh, the salvation process.
Right.
And so yes, the Holy Spirit, um, is the
one that ultimately saves and convicts.
Um, and then it's our response to, uh,
acknowledge, um, our sin and to repent.
of our sin, you know, on Sunday,
we do it every single Sunday.
We invite people to, uh, say
the sinner's prayer, right?
And to receive the, the goodness
of God and the grace of God.
What's problematic, I think sometimes
with, uh, some of these, uh, ads, um,
specifically he gets us is that, uh,
some of the images could be a distortion
of what Jesus actually did, right?
And so, okay, yes, Jesus.
washed feet of his disciples.
Yeah.
Right.
And then you start opening up the
aperture and you start, um, you know,
telling a story, uh, that might not be,
um, theologically consistent, right.
It could bring confusion.
And I think that's some of
the problematic nature of, uh,
you know, some of these ads.
It's not even just limited
to he gets us right.
I think Um, this is going to be a
challenge with, uh, storytelling
overall, um, especially,
and this is the part, right?
Especially when you are directly
saying you're representing scripture.
Right.
Right.
I think actually sometimes it's easier
to not put, you know, The explicit label
that this is Jesus, but more take the
route that you typically take Jens,
which is like, Hey, I'm going to try
to extract some biblical principle and
I'm going to try to tell a compelling
story based on this biblical principle,
but it gets harder when, so that's why
probably the chosen was really difficult.
Jens Jacob: Yeah.
I'm actually surprised that because
Ps Vance: they're reenacting the Bible.
Right.
Jens Jacob: Well, I'm surprised they got,
uh, maybe away with a lot of the things
that they do because they, they tend to,
because it's a whole, you know, you know,
series that's based on a couple of verses,
you're doing a lot of extra biblical
kind of maybe takes on certain things.
Like I think Matthew had like some sort
of was on the spectrum and like things
like that, that aren't like quite.
So I was surprised that the, that the
audience was mature enough to give
Ps Vance: that creative license,
give the creative license
Jens Jacob: to understand what is
biblical, what's not, what kind of helps
maybe color picture, but it's not like
redrawing the, the, the, the picture.
And that's the part.
It
Ps Vance: feels like some of the,
he gets us to, I haven't seen all
of it, but the ones I've seen,
some of the images feels like it's
Arun: redrawing the picture.
Ps Vance: And I think if you're
literally saying, Oh no, no, this is
exactly what Jesus did, but it feels
like you've redrawn what Jesus did.
I feel like that can cause confusion.
Arun: Can you, can you dive
into that a little bit more?
Cause like the difference between
The Chosen and then these commercials
where it was like, from your point
of view, it was the audience was
able to be a little bit more mature.
Maybe and interpret it the right way.
Do you think that's the job of the
audience then of the commercials?
If he gets us not to interpret it to
Ps Vance: the ultimate premise of even
just that phrase, he gets us, right?
I think the point is, do we get him?
Interesting.
Jens Jacob: I don't fully understand the
controversy is part of the controversy
with the meaning, just cause I haven't
like done a deep dive to know, and I
haven't seen a lot of the commercials is
part of it, that it's like giving license.
Ps Vance: I think that would be
probably some of the critique.
I think probably some of the critique is
what, um, Arun said earlier of the idea
of come as you are is an incomplete idea.
Does that make sense?
So, you know, the good news
is very good news, right?
But then it kind of
becomes challenging news.
So, so what I mean is like, The
grace of God, you could not earn
it, there's nothing that you could
do, and, and you can receive it
no matter how jacked up you were.
No matter how messed up you were, no
matter how many mistakes you, that's why
the grace of God is so compelling, right?
That's why the grace of God.
You know, that, that there's so much
anointing that breaks the yoke in
that because the forgiveness, no
matter what you've done is so good.
And so palpable, literally God
sent his son to die, um, for
humanity that would believe.
Right.
And so, and so that goodness is so good.
But then when you say, um, I receive
Jesus's death as a sacrifice for
my sins, You're now saying, okay,
cool, I received his goodness.
Now it's my turn to die.
That's the challenging news, right?
It's like, okay, now it's my turn to
come into full submission to your ways.
And that's kind of the, I'm
saved and also being saved.
Right, it's this constant process
of yes, thank you God for your
salvation, but now you are Lord, right?
and I think that is the
incomplete idea of Idea
Jens Jacob: of like maybe the commercial
state as In the come as you are and then
it's being interpreted as stay as you are.
Yep, yep.
Ps Vance: Potentially.
Jens Jacob: Gotcha.
Ps Vance: Potentially.
Gotcha.
Right?
Um.
Yeah.
But I do think the, the basis though of
what my opinion, it's just my opinion.
of, of some of the, the drawings
and the images seem, seeming to
be a redrawing that's not, uh,
fully scripturally accurate.
What I'm saying is that could be
in and of itself confusing, right?
Um, that's why I say, man, big ups
to those that want to tackle projects
like the chosen because you're really
saying, I'm, we're going to reenact.
actual scripture.
Jens Jacob: Yeah.
Ps Vance: And, and that, that is,
that's gotta be a big challenge.
Jens Jacob: Yeah.
There's this, I'm going to butcher it and
I probably should, should know the verse,
but the one that challenged me about this
particular subject matter is there's a
verse in the Bible that That distills
down to even if it was done poorly, like
the representation of like my name, as
long as Christ was glorified, then he
can, he can, uh, redeem it essentially.
And that he, I got really, really like,
you know, challenged by that particular
verse because I think I was the first to
critique, um, not stuff like that, but to
pastors or like things that were happening
in the church in terms of like that didn't
feel like biblical and stuff like that.
And I remember reading this verse.
And it like really stopped my like
thought process on that because like
I'm trying to like I don't fully know
the organization behind the business
and like all that and like what they're
what even like where they get their
funding from or like what their mission
is or I know that they hired 72 and
Sonny which is a huge ad agency in LA.
They're not faith based so you
know they're just probably the
more skilled executor than they are
the the vision behind it because
I think it's hard to be all things
to all people in the terms of like.
If that commercial was supposed to
communicate from, like, the grace to,
like, come to the altar, like, and, like,
you know, change, I don't know if a 30
second commercial would ever do that.
At the same time, it doesn't mean that
we shouldn't, like, hold, like, certain,
like, principles and stuff like that,
because I would have thought to the
critique that you're having, which I
think is a fair critique, I thought more
people would have had to the Chosen.
just because of the, it is
actually direct biblical.
So that really like is kind of interesting
to see like where we've evolved in terms
of what people are okay with or not.
And I think it actually partially has
to do with who's saying it and what
side of the aisle you're saying it from.
I also
Ps Vance: think my artistic critique is it
seems to be trying to conform to culture.
More than it is trying
to contrast culture.
And my thing is, some of the
most beautiful art brings
an incredible contrast.
Um, you know, that's why whether you
love him or hate him, Kanye has produced
some of the most compelling art.
Cause he's such a contrast.
Right?
Um, and some of the things
that he's produced typically,
um, have been in that vein.
And so the conformity
to me, Um, to culture.
So like this whole idea, again, the
premise, he gets us, it's, it's almost
speaking to what, what culture it's
like, it's this, this whole idea of
like, okay, what's, what's in it for me.
Um, you know, Oh, I just want
somebody to see me and get me and, and
somebody just affirm me and accept me.
And it's kind of, it's kind of like,
okay, that's what everybody's saying.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, I think he gets us
could have been mistaken for,
are you talking about my company?
That's what they tell me.
Jens Jacob: Right.
Ps Vance: Do you know what I'm saying?
And so even from our artistic
perspective, I feel like it's too
much conforming to Um, some of the
DEI narrative and things like that,
where it's like, okay, well, sure.
There's probably elements in that, that,
uh, we can extract a biblical principle.
Um, but that's actually no different
from what the world is trying to
preach, which is definitely not.
Jesus, right?
Does that make sense?
Was that
Jens Jacob: always their
campaign or just this particular?
No, that's always been there.
So
Ps Vance: they've done this
two Super Bowls in a row.
Arun: Yeah.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
I mean, like you said, it's, it's
hard to, to please everybody.
And, but like, it's nice though,
that you know, there is an attempt,
I think, to kind of intercept that
plane of like, what would usually
be a non Christian kind of space.
Like the Super Bowl, it's just
like commercials that don't exist.
But like, there also is a responsibility
if you are entering that space
to not create more confusion,
like Pastor Vance is saying.
And on that topic, it's kind of
interesting now with like generative AI.
I'd be curious to hear what your thoughts
are and this ability now for anybody
to create mass amounts of content.
Especially in like the
film or media space.
Um, and like how that's been for
you and like how you're taking
advantage of like Gen AI in film.
Jens Jacob: Yeah.
I mean, It's definitely, um, the most
amount of like questions I think has
resulted out of the most recent Sora
that had come out and, and even the
industry this last year has been having
the conversation more from the standpoint
of image and likeness, the idea of how
do you protect actors or, you know,
people that are now able to remix.
You know, cause essentially generative
AI is just training on existing things
and you're just basically at some
point it's modeled or trained off of
like an existing photo and, and so on.
Or, I mean, we've, we've, we've even
used it more recently on one of my
films where, and with the actor's
permission or sorry, the, the subject's
permission, we would, uh, close gaps
in lines by training the AI, the voice.
Yep.
And then, so instead of having to rerecord
or re, you know, sometimes it can be,
you know, tens of thousands of dollars
to like bring everybody back together.
We just trained the voice
and then like off camera or
whatever, a new line or whatever.
And we're able to put a lot of
pieces together in that sense.
In your
Ps Vance: opinion, is it
pretty indistinguishable?
Yeah, that's so cool.
Jens Jacob: It was pretty scary
how indistinguishable it was.
I mean, it saved so much money.
Yeah, it saved so much money
and for the talent, like they
were appreciative too because.
They didn't have to like put
more work in, in a weird way.
Like, um, that's not going
to be the case for everybody.
Cause obviously people want to
be able to monetize their time.
And, you know, and that's, that's
the question that I think is
everybody's grappling with is
like, how do you monetize it?
And then, um, even to some degree,
how do you regulate it so that it
doesn't completely kill off like
an entire division or, or, or, or
position inside of the film industry.
And most recently, I think with Sora.
The challenge of that became what is film
infrastructure look like for creatives?
It's a, it's an amazing time because
you can with almost no money,
no resource get something made.
Arun: Right, right.
Jens Jacob: And I'm,
I'm more in that camp.
Um, but I also, I think, um,
I might not be as affected by
that as maybe a gaffer would.
Right.
Or a PA would or somebody else
that might have a career in.
a part of the, the dependency
of the infrastructure of film.
And so I, I think I have
a skewed opinion on it.
I can't speak for it, but I also
know that most people that do get
into the film industry do want
to direct or do want to act or do
want to do something else bigger.
There are, there are some union
people that are doing what they do and
they're very talented at what they do.
Um, but I also am a firm
believer that a gaffer is just
a really skilled electrician.
So he or she will find work.
Maybe in another, another area.
But it is scary to think about, like,
it could really drastically change
what it looks like for a lot of people.
But I think with any kind of technical
logical revolution that happens, we used
to have people that, I don't know what
they're called, but like the telephone
operators that would like, you know,
switch operators, we don't have that
anymore, you know, it's like, there's
obvious things that are going to be
innovated out of certain roles or jobs.
And I think for.
For me, it's like, there's no better
time to be a creator than there is now.
Oh, it's the best time.
It's the best time to be a creator.
Oh my
Ps Vance: goodness.
And you know, the creatives are going
to get rewarded, I think, because they
have even more tools at their disposal.
And it's interesting, you said
something at Flowcon that actually
was really cool perspective, um,
with things like Sora, right?
Uh, it's actually kind of an indication
of how much we want to be like our
father, that we just, we want to say
things and then it'd be created just
like God said, let there be light.
And there was light.
Yeah.
We can say the ultimate
Jens Jacob: form of like,
Ps Vance: yeah.
Jens Jacob: And I have this like,
kind of like maybe even like post
apocalyptic, like scary kind of like
visual, but also beautiful is like,
you know, You know, we are created
beings made by an ultimate creator.
Mm-Hmm.
. And in that he has created
all things, including us.
And what is the one thing that we want our
ultimate form of creation to look like?
Mm-Hmm.
us.
Mm-Hmm.
. We want robots to look like us.
Mm-Hmm.
. We want, in the same way that we were
created in the image of the father.
We want our now next like version
of creation to look like us.
Mm-Hmm.
. And I find it so profound that
like, you know, we wanna do all
the things that dad wants to do.
Mm-Hmm.
, we want to speak things into existence.
We want, you know.
Um, things that we create to like take
on forms of more than just, we want it to
think for itself to some degree, right?
AGI is kind of the, the idea that like
this computer will like think for itself
and be able to be more responsive than
just being dictated what, what to do.
And maybe even in return.
Uh, give us love or gratitude or,
you know, uh, you know, a feeling
of like, that we had purpose
by building this, this thing.
Mm-Hmm.
. I, I find it very interesting.
I'm not trying to take this to a
place where like it's um, maybe
like, um, an anti-biblical Mm-Hmm.
. But like, I find a lot of like
interest around, like, that's
kind of like where AI robots all
that is kind of, kind of headed.
Mm-Hmm.
. But yeah, I mean.
It is very interesting to think
about, like, what the future is
going to look like for creating.
I was like, where is that coming from?
Is that God?
God!
Ps Vance: Well, that is an
interesting tension, right?
Of, um, obviously,
Christian is little Christ.
So, we want to be like God.
Uh, yeah.
But there's a very, you know,
fine line with wanting to be God.
Yeah.
A hundred
Jens Jacob: percent.
Yeah.
And to me it's like, where
does humanity cross that?
Cause at some point we will, I mean,
we are always trying as a, maybe not
as Christians, but as like the human
race, this is kind of the next forefront
or the frontier that we're, we're,
we're, we're, and I think with that,
it's like great power comes with great
responsibility to know how to regulate it,
to know how to, around it, but unlimited
potential or power unlocking of the
mind is what we're talking about here.
And
Arun: I think something that's really
interesting is that people are going to
realize who we really are because now
you're building your biases into stuff.
And like Google had their, we
talked about it in the last pod,
but like you will see yourself.
Yeah, you will see yourself come out
Jens Jacob: crazy in this stuff.
You're building a company like that.
Could have that's what
I was talking about.
Ps Vance: Right.
But right.
It's like, It is part of that DEI
narrative that gets, um, even a company
like Google's core mission off mission.
Right, right.
When I joined Google, it was to
organize, still it is today, I think,
to organize the world's information to
make it universally accessible to all.
Right.
And when they released this AI, It was to
confuse the world's information because
you got away from first principle.
Jens Jacob: Yeah.
Ps Vance: Right.
Um, because there is an agenda.
Yeah.
And so I think that we just
have to be aware of that.
And Why I am a fan of capitalism.
Um, I like to think that I have
a conscience about it, but what I
like about, um, capitalism is that,
you know, with something like this,
the market will tell you, right?
The market will tell you.
And, and the market, market clearly
was trying to tell Google, Hey, look,
like this agenda has gone too far.
And now you're confusing me when
I'm trying to search information.
I used to go to Google to get facts.
Now I'm just getting a perspective out of
Jens Jacob: curiosity, like with something
like that, cause I'm always trying to
figure out when I, when a blunder like
that happens, how much of it was, there's
a specific group of people that had the
agenda versus like, it's like corporate
level or like maybe like a leadership
level, obviously at some point it has
to go up through to leadership, but I
Ps Vance: don't think it's too.
As pervasive, um, as like,
Oh, this is the whole company.
I definitely don't think that.
Cause I know a lot of, uh, friends
at Google that like, were maybe
just as shocked as we were, um, it's
definitely a subsection of people.
And I definitely think that
leadership, um, either was part of it.
or tolerated it.
Yeah.
Right.
And so that's what culture is.
We actually talked about that at
Flowcon is culture is whatever
you celebrate or tolerate.
Right.
And so, um, I do think that maybe
it was, um, this subtle thing
that was invading the company.
Um, and it just manifested into
this moment where it was like,
wow, we have drifted so far.
And I think the subtle thing is when.
The companies felt like, Oh, DEI
is where the market is going.
And Oh, okay.
There's a business reason.
So then we're going to
hire certain people.
And then maybe those
people had some agendas.
Maybe some of those people were
even radicalized with their agenda
and, you know, invaded some of
these principles in the market.
In the company that led
them down this pathway.
Um, but then again, capitalism, the
market will tell you, you've gone too far.
I think the world
Arun: did
Jens Jacob: tell them,
Ps Vance: let's bring
some correction to this.
If you want to continue to compete.
Arun: Yeah.
Yeah.
And like one last thing before, I
know we're pretty close to time,
um, that I wanted to touch on
one of those three hour podcasts.
I mean, we could go three hours,
honestly, but, um, I just want
to tie this back to storytelling.
And I know right now.
ai, gen AI is like lowering
the barrier to entry.
Like even in my profession, I think
recently Cognition, I think just built
the first like software engineer with
ai and it's like fully, yeah, Devvin.
Yeah, Devon.
It's crazy.
I might need to look for a new job,
but it's like these are to look for a
new job now, but it's all just tools.
Right.
And I think what this is gonna
bring out, especially in like
this space that you guys were
working in as a creative is like.
There's more emphasis
on storytellers, right?
And people that can use these
tools to really tell stories.
And I feel like we might actually just get
more stories, more people that are able
to tell their stories and better stories.
It's kind of like when the, um, the
phone camera came out and now everybody
could just take pictures of everything.
And like you had Instagram and, but
now the content that's being created,
it's like leveled up in my opinion.
I don't know.
There's a lot more of it, but
there's a few creators were able
to like, you know, maximize that.
And I feel like, what do you think?
Do you think it's going to be better
stories out there or just going to
be a lot of people that are just like
lowering the bar for a good story.
I mean, I think it's a mix
Jens Jacob: of both.
I think you're going to see
a lot more crap out there.
Like, I mean, that's just like
when you lower the bar, you
know, you, you will just see more
things flood into the market.
I mean, in our industry, a
version of that was like content
creators and YouTube, right?
Like YouTube opened up the floodgates
for a whole new type of content.
Um, storytelling even.
that you've seen some really beautiful
things come out of it that have now made
it into theaters and like, have like,
you know, um, ultimately prevailed.
Um, and I think with that, like,
I think you, you have to, you just
have to learn how to progress.
Like I think for me, I don't value
my practicality as much as I value
my ideas and my, the, the maybe
the problem solving that I have.
So, like, for me, it doesn't
matter what they're doing.
The platform or the tool set is I'm
going to still figure out how to create.
And I'm going to use what is
available to me to create.
And so, um, hopefully that's not bad or
crap, but it could be perceived that way.
If I'm just using a bunch of AI for stuff,
you know, you could probably tell that
it's not, not as good, but I think as this
evolves, I think people should learn to
adopt what that looks like in that medium.
Um, Yeah, because I mean,
there's no going back from it.
It's kind of like you open Pandora's
box and then you're saying like,
Oh, should you not use this?
And to try to be true to, I mean, there's,
there's, there's definitely culture, like
a cultural aspect of it that I think,
um, some people will be very against it.
Some people will be for it.
I think in the filmmaking industry, it
was like when film went from film to
digital, there's this whole like group
or subset of a group that are very.
Anti digital and everything has
to be shot on film for it to be,
um, original and for it to like,
feel like the original art form.
And I don't know, I've also remember the
story about like when AI was starting
to come up, um, the idea of like how
portraits used to be before photography.
And it was all like drawings and like
really like incredibly talented painters
that could almost get photo real.
And then photography came out and it was
like, Oh man, we're all out of a job.
Nobody's going to draw anymore.
Nobody's going to paint anymore.
And that wasn't true.
Right.
You know what I mean?
Like, so there, I think that will exist.
Uh, the previous version of the art
form, I think you're just going to see
now a lot of the same is true with like,
just because the iPhone came out and
you can take pictures on your phone.
It doesn't mean like
photography as an industry.
has suffered or has gotten worse.
In some ways it might've gotten better.
In some ways that it just has
decentralized certain aspects of it that
like anybody can do, you know, it's good.
That makes sense.
Arun: Um, well, we really appreciate
you, um, coming out to the podcast.
Do you want to tell the audience what you
have coming up next for you in the space?
Jens Jacob: Yeah, so, um, we've got
a couple films that are coming out.
I don't have dates for them.
So like I don't want to
share specific dates.
Um, we have a, uh, one of the cool ones
that I'm looking forward to is we have
a film about, um, how faith and science
actually are, are more closer together
than they are separate or opposite, which
has been kind of like a cultural narrative
that like you're dumb and you, you don't
really for sure, you know, use science if
you're, if you're a faith and vice versa.
And, um, there's a lot of cool like
scientific discoveries that have
happened in the last like 50 years that
would, would, would show otherwise.
And, and so that's called, um,
uh, the working tile titles,
the story of everything.
And it kind of goes from like,
early creation to now and it
doesn't really follow the right now.
It's like you either have evolution
or you have um creationism.
It doesn't really follow the
creationism narrative either just
because creationism was trying to
share science out of the bible.
Which is not necessarily what
this film where this particular
vertical of science is trying to do.
It's it's called intelligent design We
actually have Peter Thiel in the film.
Oh, wow So we have people outside
of direct faith circles Yeah
circles and just thought leaders
and scientists in the film.
So I'm very looking forward to that
I think that's like a great follow
up to after death and then we have a
We've since created a FinTech platform
called Saturation, um, and that's
been an effort to build better tools
around filmmaking and particularly
the film finance management.
I tell people all the time I went to
LA to be in a creative and ended up
becoming an accountant and we're trying
to help allow creatives to not have
to do some of the logistical stuff.
I love that.
Ps Vance: Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah,
Jens Jacob: that's awesome.
Pastor Vance, anything else?
Ps Vance: No, man, this
was a great conversation.
Thanks so much.
Pastor Adam, we miss you, but
I'm glad that we could open
up some space for a guest.
And, uh, I think we're going
to run it back next week.
Uh, maybe, uh, switch places.
Pastor Adam's going to have
you and a guest next week.
So stay tuned for the next
pod because, um, we're going
to keep these guests rolling.
Cool.
Sounds good.
Thanks for having me.