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Host Richard Ellis welcomes Danny Goldberg, CPA, staffing and corporate training founder and author, to discuss why message delivery is a learnable leadership skill. Danny emphasizes engaging, succinct, tactfully direct communication; mastering the message without scripting; and being authentic rather than forcing humor or borrowed stories. They compare communication across one-on-one, team, and stage settings: build trust and show care in 1:1s, avoid leader-dominated talk in teams to reduce groupthink and increase psychological safety, and be clear and consistent on stage. Practical tips include using simple bullet-point prompts, avoiding podium barriers, ending early, interacting to keep adults engaged, and closing with “gold nugget” takeaways after Q&A.
Soundbites
Soundbites
- “If your message can’t be delivered effectively, nobody’s gonna care about it.”
- “This might be more important than your intelligence, is being able to deliver your message.”
- “The less I speak, the more effective a speaker I’ve become.”
- “If you memorize your speech, you’re not gonna sound like you know it.”
- “If I don’t feel comfortable telling you something, then that’s part of your effectiveness. You probably aren’t the most effective leader then.”
- “I do not trust anybody that stands behind the podium the whole time. A podium is a physical barrier.”
- “If I’m telling you what to do, are you truly a team?”
- “All those one-on-one meetings, all those team meetings build you into your stage presence.”
- “If you’re not a funny person, don’t try to be funny.”
- “Telling stories for the sake of storytelling is just not good, and people get frustrated.”
Danny's business, GoldSRD: https://goldsrd.com/
Richard’s business, Revenue Innovations: https://www.revenueinnovations.com
Creators and Guests
Host
What is Some Goodness?
Some Goodness is hosted by Richard Ellis, a seasoned sales leader passionate about inviting top business minds to share their wisdom. Each episode is only 15-20 minutes, perfect for your commute or workout.
[00:00:00] Richard Ellis: Emotional intelligence is scarce at the top. Korn Ferry assessed a hundred and fifty-five thousand leaders and found only twenty-two percent have strong EQ. But nobody experiences your self-awareness directly. They only experience what you say and how you say it. Poor communication costs US companies an estimated one point two trillion dollars a year, and almost sixty percent of new managers get zero training on how to lead people.
[00:00:26] Richard Ellis: Welcome to Some Goodness, where we engage seasoned business leaders and experts to share practical guidance and tips to help new and future C-level leaders maximize their impact. My guest today is Danny Goldberg, CPA, founder of a seventeen-year staffing and corporate training business, and author of A Little Bit of A-Hole and People Centric Skills.
[00:00:46] Richard Ellis: In today's episode, we go after the skill that makes all of it work, the ability to deliver a message Danny, welcome to the show
[00:00:54] Danny Goldberg: Thanks for having me, Richard
[00:00:55] Richard Ellis: Well, today we're gonna talk a little bit about the different settings that a leader [00:01:00] might find themselves in, and leading from different settings or scenarios or situations requires different mindset, different approaches.
[00:01:08] Richard Ellis: And so I wanted to dig in to that with you and just get some of your experience since you've worked with and recruited a lot of leaders and coached others. Does that sound good?
[00:01:16] Danny Goldberg: Sounds great
[00:01:17] Richard Ellis: Well, let's start by just kind of talking about why delivery is a leadership skill and not a talent. So in other words, you know, you've said a great message with poor delivery often gets ignored.
[00:01:29] Richard Ellis: And so when we think about our communication and delivery of message, I think some people may be born with just the ability to do that well, but many of us, myself included, had to learn and develop that as a skill over time. What's your viewpoint there?
[00:01:42] Danny Goldberg: I agree with you, and to give you a little background on me, we do a lot of training.
[00:01:45] Danny Goldberg: I'm in front of big groups a lot, and it was a skill that was natural to me. I never took a class, never read a book. It just, it just free flows, and that's good for me. That being said, to your point, I don't think most people are naturally very effective at delivering their message. We do a lot of [00:02:00] CPE training for accountants and auditors, and the feedback I get from other people that have, have gone to other classes is it was a great message, like if they saw a speaker, it was a great message, but they were monotone.
[00:02:11] Danny Goldberg: They read the slides. They stood behind the stage, and they didn't deliver well, and within 30 seconds, people are zoning out at that point. Right So to me, it, it is all about your delivery, being able to engage people one-on-one with good eye contact, being able to deliver a non-rambling, succinct message.
[00:02:27] Danny Goldberg: Being tactfully direct I think is a big part of it, too, because I don't want the message to get lost in niceties. I want them to understand it, but they should not get offended at what, anything I'm saying
[00:02:36] Richard Ellis: Got it. You have your own podcast, right? And I think, you know, just like you were saying there, you, you found yourself very natural in that environment and able to communicate and deliver your message well.
[00:02:47] Richard Ellis: For those that struggle, is it just being more intention about it? I mean, I've heard one presentation skill coach say, "The less confident you are in the message, the less adept you're gonna be at delivering it," right? That's true So the first step [00:03:00] is just making sure you master the message and the story you're telling and the content first.
[00:03:04] Richard Ellis: So I'm just curious, you know, what's your approach and what guidance might you have for leaders that just need to really improve the delivery of their message and their communications?
[00:03:12] Danny Goldberg: So what you just said I thought made a lot of sense, and I agree with. I think it's very important to be flexible. If you memorize your speech, you're not gonna sound like you know it, and you're gonna sound like you're not flexible.
[00:03:22] Danny Goldberg: I think flexibility is key. I joke around about this all the time. When I took the CPA exam 30 years ago, I did not sleep well, but I overprepared, man. I studied for hundreds of hours And I failed miserably. Um- Yeah ... the next time I didn't study as much, I focused on theoretical, I relaxed a lot more, and I, I aced the whole test.
[00:03:39] Danny Goldberg: And I think that's the same thing here, is- Okay ... your nerves are so high it screws up your message. But if you know what your message is and you're confident in your message, you're gonna build confidence in your delivery. I think another part too, Richard, is I think a lot of people think when they're trying to deliver a message, they can't be themselves, especially if they're an introvert.
[00:03:56] Danny Goldberg: Be your own personality. Be who you are. If you're not a funny person, [00:04:00] don't try to be funny 'cause it's gonna come off- Right ... if you're gonna tell stories, tell stories that you have and experienced versus someone else's stories. Just I think- Right ... people will appreciate the authenticity of your message, whether it be, you know, boisterous or not.
[00:04:13] Danny Goldberg: They'll appreciate that.
[00:04:13] Richard Ellis: It's funny that you mention being comfortable and your own style and all of that good stuff because twice in my career, it hadn't happened a lot, but it's, I don't think it's a strange notion that many executives have ghostwriters or- Mm-hmm ... you know, their right-hand people that help create their presentations for them.
[00:04:28] Richard Ellis: But two different times, I remember in sales kickoff events, a leader up there clearly- Reading from a slide or a set of slides that somebody created for him or her. But there were some jokes inserted in, in these two scenarios, and it was the most painful- Yeah ... and cringe inducing experience to just watch them try to tell this joke.
[00:04:52] Richard Ellis: It was like, no. I mean-
[00:04:53] Danny Goldberg: They're reading in monotone. They're probably messing up the punchline. Yes. Man, that's ... Yeah, no. My girlfriend asked me all the time, [00:05:00] uh, when we first started dating, she's like, "Do you prepare?" I said, "Yeah, I spend hours preparing." And she's like, "Really?" I said, "No, I don't prepare for any of this now."
[00:05:06] Danny Goldberg: I've been doing this so long, and every presentation is unique. Not everything's gonna be different, but there's gonna be a sig- significant majority that's different. And I'm comfortable riffing, and I've got enough knowledge and confidence in my message that we can, you know, uh, dovetail into different tangents, and I'm fine with that.
[00:05:21] Danny Goldberg: And I think the flexibility of your message is really, really key. I had a, a guy that we were coaching that he was chief auditor at a company. He was at the audit committee meeting, and he had this great presentation, 20 pages. Got through the first page. 30 seconds in, the audit committee head stops him and says, "Okay, next page."
[00:05:38] Danny Goldberg: So he started to ... You know, you could see the panic in his eyes, and it kept going like that. It was a complete train wreck because he had memorized the presentation. He wanted to go through all of it, and nobody cared. So you've gotta know your audience, too. That's really critical.
[00:05:51] Richard Ellis: Oh, that's so important.
[00:05:52] Richard Ellis: Yeah, make sure your stories, your, your message fits the audience. For sure.
[00:05:56] Danny Goldberg: I used to have a speaker that worked for me that he would go on tangents with these long stories, [00:06:00] and I go on tangents sometimes too, but I always wind it back to the message. Yeah. He'd go on tangents, and my client came back and said, "He never came back.
[00:06:06] Danny Goldberg: It was just a 10-minute story." And then he'd go back to the message. It's like, well, he's not working for me anymore.
[00:06:11] Richard Ellis: There you go. I've been told two, you know, I think really good and, and practical pieces of advice over the years. One is if you're not just inherently funny, don't try to be funny. Yes, you see speakers up there that tell some jokes, and they add levity, et cetera, and it's organic, and it's fun.
[00:06:26] Richard Ellis: You know- Mm-hmm ... it's great. You can't do that? Don't force it 'cause it will bomb. And then the second piece of advice that I found out that just would be good to keep in mind is if you're gonna tell a story, make sure it has a point, and that point ties back to the message you're trying to deliver. Yeah.
[00:06:39] Richard Ellis: Telling stories for the sake of storytelling is just not good, and, and people get frustrated.
[00:06:44] Danny Goldberg: I try to talk stories that people can relate to. My kids, marriage, divorce, dating, dogs, pets. You know, stuff like that. Yeah. Just real world things that also shows that you're real. Some people kind of hold you in too high of a g- regard if you're sitting up on a stage.
[00:06:58] Danny Goldberg: I want people to know I'm just [00:07:00] one of them.
[00:07:00] Richard Ellis: I do like stories that are relatable, so you're not like, "Oh, well, that's your world, buddy," you know? So that's, that's a good point. So make sure your stories have a point, and make sure that they're relatable, and you should go well. Well, I'm a bit of a process geek, so I like to just kinda think organizationally.
[00:07:16] Richard Ellis: And when I think about a leader communicating and delivering a message or communicating with, with an audience, I, I think that there's three different levels of situations they find themselves in or, or different settings, right? There's the one-on-one level of communication, so sitting across a desk from somebody or maybe across a Zoom call.
[00:07:34] Richard Ellis: Then there's the team level, so you've got a, a team meeting in a room. And then there's the stage level, where you're maybe at a big company meeting, town hall, sales kickoff, what have you, and you're, you're commanding the room from a stage. So if you don't mind, I'd love to just g-get your insights in each of those three settings.
[00:07:52] Danny Goldberg: I would say just a-as we go from one-on-one to team to the stage, we want to be less personal as we get higher up that stage, if that makes sense. So that [00:08:00] one-on-one, you truly have to get to know the person. You want them to feel like you truly care about their future, about helping them throughout any, uh, a-any, uh, trials and tribulations they have at work et cetera.
[00:08:11] Danny Goldberg: As you get into a team, it's a little bit depersonalized, but you still should have, be able to have good personal relationships. Once you get on the stage, I think that changes things. Now, I think your message has to directly correlate to where you're at, too. So your message on a one-on-one, it can be more flexible.
[00:08:26] Danny Goldberg: As we start pushing up into teams, it's gotta be more concrete, more black and white. Right. And if you're on the stage, the last thing you want people to think is you're wishy-washy or you're going back- Yeah ... on your message. Right. So I think, to me, at, as soon as you said that, those are the first two things that popped into my head that are critical.
[00:08:42] Danny Goldberg: Plus, all those one-on-one meetings, all those team meetings build you into your stage presence.
[00:08:47] Richard Ellis: Ooh, right.
[00:08:48] Danny Goldberg: You learn a lot from that where you can apply to any situation. And again, you know, when you're talking in front of a big group, the more you know about the people in the group, the better. The more you know your audience, the more you're comfortable with them.[00:09:00]
[00:09:00] Danny Goldberg: I'll give you an example. My kids and my brother has seen me speak a couple times. My ex-wife did, too. It was nerve-wracking, Richard, for them to come- ... to a presentation. And like, "What? Why? They don't know anything." It doesn't matter. It's my freaking kid, man. It's my, it was my wife at the time. Right. It was nerve-wracking.
[00:09:15] Danny Goldberg: So the more people I'm comfortable with, the better, unless they're relatives.
[00:09:19] Richard Ellis: Right. There you go. Well, I like that progression of just thinking from, you know, one-on-one to several to one to, to many, right? One-on-one situation, a, a lot of times that's where trust is built or lost. Mm-hmm. You're developing relationships.
[00:09:34] Richard Ellis: As you mentioned, you know, you're learning more about your audience on a one-on-one basis, and that can have payoff when you get to the team, right? It reminds me of a time where, I mean, these days everybody puts up a good front on Facebook and on social media, and everybody's life is perfect, right?
[00:09:49] Richard Ellis: Mm-hmm. And, but you never know what battles a, a person's fighting, right? And they, they show up to work, maybe they've been off their game for the week. A- and just to check in with them and find out, "Hey, man, what's going on?" You know, "Things, you, you [00:10:00] haven't shown up like you usually do," right? Yeah. And just kinda getting a little personal with them and showing you care, like you, like you mentioned, I think is really helpful, rather than just, you know, quick judgment on the surface.
[00:10:10] Richard Ellis: And you do learn a lot about those people that you can carry into the team and the group dynamics.
[00:10:15] Danny Goldberg: There was one other thing I was gonna mention, and people don't really understand this point. The less I speak, the more effective a speaker I've become. If that makes any sense. Mm-hmm. Because I try to interact with people, I try to get people involved in the conversation because as an adult, for us to stay engaged, y- you have to be involved in the conversation almost.
[00:10:33] Danny Goldberg: So even on the big stage, I still try to interact with people. So I would say, you know, don't think that if it's a one-on-one, if the team... specifically a team meeting, that you need to be the person talking, quite frankly. Right. Right. 'Cause as a leader, quite frankly, you should be taking a step back and letting the team figure things out and work on their good team dynamics.
[00:10:49] Richard Ellis: E- especially on the one-on-one too, because y- you would think, "Hey, there's only two of us, so there should be a back and forth." But, you know, in our work we do a lot of, uh, shadow coaching, so we'll coach a manager's [00:11:00] one-on-one with his team member. And it's still kind of surprising to me how often we'll come back and one of the key critiques is, "You spent 90% of the time talking," and they couldn't get a word in edgewise.
[00:11:10] Richard Ellis: And of course, we all know why that doesn't work well.
[00:11:13] Danny Goldberg: Let me give you one more example 'cause I do a course- Yeah ... on critical thinking, and all my courses are pretty interactive, but this one specifically is really, really fun. I've done this two or three times with a couple different banks. One specifically on the East Coast.
[00:11:24] Danny Goldberg: First hour of the course, everybody's in there. Nobody's saying a word, nobody's interacting. I'm like, "What's going on? This is wild. This is crazy." I'm asking questions, complete silence. I step up to the side at a break. I tell the leadership team, I said, "Hey, why don't you guys go have a meeting or something, step out.
[00:11:38] Danny Goldberg: Let me see if the dynamic changes." Completely changed at that point. Then when I told them the dynamic changed, I said, "They don't want to talk in front of you. They don't feel comfortable. They don't feel safe." And they just denied it and they said, "No, it's, that's not an issue, I promise." Well, it was obviously an issue.
[00:11:52] Danny Goldberg: And that goes back to leaders need to make people feel comfortable talking to them. If I don't feel comfortable telling you something, then [00:12:00] that's part of your effectiveness. You're, you probably aren't the most effective leader then.
[00:12:03] Richard Ellis: Right. And that's a great reminder. I think all leaders just benefit from heightened self-awareness.
[00:12:09] Richard Ellis: Oh, yeah. And just understanding where they can come across, you know, maybe a little too condescending or maybe too direct- you know, directing versus guiding- Yes ... or collaborating, right?
[00:12:19] Danny Goldberg: Yes. Agree. Self-awareness
[00:12:21] Richard Ellis: is critical. Which brings me to the, to the team setting, and you mentioned this earlier, so I wanted to kind of double-click in this a little bit.
[00:12:26] Richard Ellis: Making sure you're not just the one up front across the team saying everything a- and doing all the talking, but actually supporting your team, collaborating with each other. Tell me a little bit more about that.
[00:12:36] Danny Goldberg: When you really do formal brainstorming, you really don't want the leader saying anything 'cause you're getting a lot of groupthink.
[00:12:40] Danny Goldberg: People will agree with you, going back to a book I wrote on being p- a people pleaser. You know, people are gonna say, "Yeah, that's a great idea." In reality, it's a horrible idea. I always tell them when I'm teaching Agile, the team owns the time, not me. So they get two or three minutes each, and they're talking to all of us, they're talking to me.
[00:12:56] Danny Goldberg: I'm not leading the meeting. That's not the intention whatsoever. So I think the [00:13:00] perspective that people think the leader or the project manager has to lead the p- meeting is wrong. I don't think they should be leading it in a lot of cases.
[00:13:06] Richard Ellis: Well, and that doesn't mean that you can't kick things off by setting clear examples- Yeah
[00:13:11] Richard Ellis: or, or clear direction or new objectives, or here's a new strategy. But giving space for the team to say, "Okay, now how are we gonna accomplish this together?" Yes. Or, "What is the change in our day-to-day or our week-to-week workflows?"
[00:13:23] Danny Goldberg: Yes. Exactly. If I'm telling you what to do, are you truly a team or are you just-
[00:13:27] Richard Ellis: Right.
[00:13:27] Danny Goldberg: Of course.
[00:13:28] Richard Ellis: One of the things that we'll do when we conclude a sales training or, or something like that is we'll have a series of kind of monthly cycles of application and continuous improvement, and part of that is having regular team webinars or team calls-
[00:13:46] Danny Goldberg: Mm-hmm ...
[00:13:46] Richard Ellis: where we can lift up the early adopters and say, "Hey, Danny, you've already applied this, you know, in three of your accounts.
[00:13:53] Richard Ellis: Tell us how that went. And Sarah, you know, you got some interesting feedback from this prospect. Share that with the team." And so [00:14:00] it would be easy for me to just take that as the leader and just go tell everybody what I've observed. Yeah. But to give them an opportunity to share across their team, that feels good for them, sets them up as being, you know, a successful contributor and kinda leading the charge, and r- really leading out front, which I think is really helpful.
[00:14:18] Richard Ellis: And we're trying to develop their leadership skills, too, by doing this. There you go. The last setting is that stage environment. We'll often see this, like I mentioned before, town halls, right? Where, yes, when you get to this level, you need to have your message honed and refined. You can't just get up there and wing it in front of a big audience, but you still have to be yourself.
[00:14:37] Richard Ellis: You still have to make it applicable and relevant to your audience. What are some other care abouts or just considerations that we should have as a leader if we're, like, up on stage in front of the sales team or at a town hall meeting?
[00:14:48] Danny Goldberg: You know, I, I, I agree with you on, you know, knowing your message, but don't script your message.
[00:14:52] Danny Goldberg: You know, have three or four bullet points and then fill in the areas from there because if not, you're gonna end up reading your message more than anything else. I [00:15:00] also am a huge proponent, I think it's hard on town hall meetings. I do not trust anybody that stands behind the podium the whole time.
[00:15:05] Richard Ellis: Hmm.
[00:15:06] Danny Goldberg: A, a podium is a physical barrier, so I can hide almost. I want someone that, I think right away I tell people, "Get rid of the podium. I don't want it here." You know, I might put my computer on there, and we'll put it to the side, but I'll move around the whole time. I want people to see my whole, whole physicality, and I think that makes people more comfortable with the message as well.
[00:15:25] Danny Goldberg: Be your own self. There's a c- two other things that I like talking about that people don't talk about. A, never use all the time. Always end early. If you got 30 minutes scheduled, you should go for 25, 27 minutes. And again, it might not apply to some of these town hall meetings, but why? Because even if they didn't like my message or my presentation, they just got three minutes of their life back.
[00:15:45] Danny Goldberg: It's a big deal. It's a big deal. And then the final one is you're using a PowerPoint. What slide do people end with most of the time? Richard, what do you think?
[00:15:52] Richard Ellis: Maybe a thank you slide and their name or something like that.
[00:15:54] Danny Goldberg: Thank you or an- any questions.
[00:15:56] Richard Ellis: Yeah.
[00:15:56] Danny Goldberg: Right. And I think that's a huge- Big question mark.
[00:15:59] Danny Goldberg: Yes. [00:16:00] It's because you're letting people leave the room thinking that you maybe couldn't answer these questions. And so I always ask for, you know, any questions, and usually there's no questions 'cause we've been talking the whole time. Sure. But then after we're done with that, I will come back with my gold nuggets, which is my three to five bullets that I want people leaving the room with.
[00:16:18] Danny Goldberg: Yeah. And that's critical because if you do it before the questions, they're not gonna remember it. Right.
[00:16:22] Richard Ellis: Right. I do like that. That's a great punchline. "Hey, the- these are the five takeaways you don't wanna miss." Really good advice there.
[00:16:28] Danny Goldberg: Thank you.
[00:16:29] Richard Ellis: Obviously, as you think about these different situations, a leader could be, you know, more comfortable in one than others, right?
[00:16:35] Richard Ellis: I was working with a new manager, sales manager, and he was venting a little bit, and also just a little bit harsh on himself because I don't think he was that poor up on stage, but he was just saying that, "When I get on stage, I just don't feel myself. It, it feels awkward." Yeah. "I have imposter syndrome."
[00:16:51] Richard Ellis: You know, things like that. So I think a lot of it is just preparing will help improve your confidence. Do you see that as just i- if you're prepared, [00:17:00] you're gonna be more confident, it's gonna reduce your anxiety in any of these three settings.
[00:17:04] Danny Goldberg: 100% agree with the only caveat I would say is you can over prepare.
[00:17:08] Danny Goldberg: Mm. And when you over prepare, you become reading your message and a monotone in your message. Right. So I tend to tell people, you know, "Don't script out your whole speech." Bullets. I'm a huge proponent of PowerPoint because if you use PowerPoint right, you've got three to five bullets on each slide that are very simple, not full sentences, but it's gonna- Yes
[00:17:26] Danny Goldberg: jog my memory and say something. Just three words that just- Yes. Yes. And then I'm gonna talk about it. So it, and it makes it more authentic, more natural feeling more than anything else. So I think to me, you should practice. I agree with you. You should know your message, but don't overdo it.
[00:17:39] Richard Ellis: Yeah. And don't memorize a script.
[00:17:41] Richard Ellis: Yeah. Nobody wants to hear that. Well, that's really good. Well, I think that's a great way to wrap things up. Good practical advice on this one. It is good to remind ourselves that not only are we trying to be effective as we communicate our message and deliver that message, but also we're developing future talent and future leaders.
[00:17:57] Richard Ellis: And so the better we do, the better we equip [00:18:00] them to do in the future. Any remaining advice in terms of just delivering message, communicating your message that we didn't talk on or mention that you wanted to highlight? I,
[00:18:09] Danny Goldberg: I would just mention one more thing, is- Yeah ... have fun with it, man. Thi- I mean, it, once you get used to speaking in front of groups, I get a high, I get a personal high out of it.
[00:18:17] Danny Goldberg: I love doing it. So have fun with it, and realize this is a skill that 99% of people do not have or do not do well. So if you can do this well, this might be more important than your intelligence, is being able to deliver your message. Yeah. If your message can't be delivered effectively, nobody's gonna care about it.
[00:18:33] Richard Ellis: Really good point. Great advice. Thank you for that. Let's wrap it there, and let's wrap with some other goodness. So outside of, uh, your business, what goodness has come your way?
[00:18:42] Danny Goldberg: You know, I, I will say this. I've got two new businesses I'm, I'm kicking off here over the next month, which I'm really excited about, and my kids are involved in both of them.
[00:18:50] Danny Goldberg: So it, it's gonna be- Fun ... a fun family experience to see if we can get these things off the ground effectively.
[00:18:56] Richard Ellis: Ooh, starting a new business is fun, and even having the family [00:19:00] involved. That can be stressful, but, uh, it can be- It's stressful, but
[00:19:02] Danny Goldberg: it's exciting ...
[00:19:03] Richard Ellis: yeah, really exciting to have your kids involved.
[00:19:05] Richard Ellis: Yeah. So congratulations. Uh, I do wanna keep in touch with you on that. That's good.
[00:19:08] Danny Goldberg: For sure, man. Thank you.
[00:19:09] Richard Ellis: Well, thank you for being on the show. Really a pleasure talking to you.
[00:19:12] Danny Goldberg: Thanks, Richard. Thanks for having me.
[00:19:15] Announcer: Some Goodness is a creation of Revenue Innovations. Visit us at revenueinnovations.com and subscribe to our newsletter.