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At some point, you decided something about yourself. Maybe you decided you were the difficult one, the responsible one, the one who doesn’t need much, or the kind of person good things don’t happen to. You probably didn’t make that decision consciously. It settled in quietly over time, until the story started to feel like the truth. In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW explore the stories we tell ourselves and how those inner narratives shape our ...
At some point, you decided something about yourself. Maybe you decided you were the difficult one, the responsible one, the one who doesn’t need much, or the kind of person good things don’t happen to. You probably didn’t make that decision consciously. It settled in quietly over time, until the story started to feel like the truth. In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW explore the stories we tell ourselves and how those inner narratives shape our relationships, choices, sense of worth, and capacity for change. Drawing from narrative therapy, existential psychology, Viktor Frankl’s idea of the space between stimulus and response, and the body’s role in carrying old beliefs, Christopher and Kenyon examine how these stories form, why they often begin as protection, and how they can become limiting over time. The conversation looks at confirmation bias, shame, people-pleasing, perfectionism, substance use, and the quiet ways a person’s life can become organized around a story they never consciously chose. The episode also offers a compassionate path toward revision: noticing the story, tracing where it came from, looking for the exceptions it leaves out, allowing the body to practice something new, and experiencing relationships that help you tell a different story about yourself.
To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com.
Follow Right Here on Instagram: @lumen_therapy_collective
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Right Here is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.
Right Here is a mental health podcast that explores the psychological patterns shaping our relationships, choices, and inner lives. Hosted by therapists Christopher Mooney, LCSW, and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW, each episode offers grounded, compassionate conversations rooted in clinical insight and real human experience. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, thoughtful dialogue designed to help listeners better understand themselves and the people around them.
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Lumen, a
podcast that sheds light on
mental health, relationships,
and what it means to be human.
I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.
SPEAKER_02: And I'm Kenyon
Phillips, LMSW.
Each episode we unpack
psychological patterns that
affect our relationships.
No jargon, no judgment.
SPEAKER_03: Just thoughtful
conversations to help you
understand yourself and others a
little more clearly.
SPEAKER_02: So what are we going
to talk about today?
Are we going to talk about what
we decided about ourselves?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I want to talk
today about our narrative and
this idea that at some point we
decide something about
ourselves.
Maybe that we're the difficult
one or the responsible one or
the one who doesn't need much.
Maybe the good things don't last
for us, right?
Or that if we ask for help, it
makes us a burden.
Or that we we're just not the
kind of person who gets to want
certain things.
We're disqualified from that.
Yeah, we are.
It just kind of settles in
quietly over the years through
experience.
And Kenyon, it seems to run in
the background of almost
everything.
You know, when we see when we
see this happen, like this
narrative kind of idea.
And it's it it runs in the
background of our relationships.
It runs in the risks that we
take or don't take.
And that story that we have
almost starts to feel like the
truth, like it's kind of like
set in stone.
And I think that's what makes it
so hard to see.
And so today I want to talk
about that and and really kind
of address this idea of our
narrative.
Yeah.
Right?
What is the story that we have
going in the background for
ourselves?
SPEAKER_02: Right.
I love that it's running in the
background, like a background
application.
Yeah, we are all living inside a
story.
And it's not really I think it's
it's easy to say, oh, well,
that's just a therapy concept.
But this is actually how human
beings operate.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think this
goes beyond the the concept of
therapy or or it which is
interesting because there's
actually the uh the approach to
therapy, one of the approaches
that we talk about all the time,
and I think kind of guides our
practice is this is narrative
therapy.
Right, totally.
Which is which is really useful.
It is.
It's it's extremely useful.
But I I I think that it is this
idea of like how how are we
looking at our story, what has
contributed to that story, and
then what what are we writing
for the rest of it?
But we're gonna get more into
that today.
And and I think this is this is
a great concept for just, you
know, if you're human, this is
happening.
SPEAKER_02: No, totally.
And it brings up this idea we
talk about a lot, and we've
talked about it in past
episodes, this idea that that
reality is subjective.
With reality is subjective.
We don't experience just like
raw reality either.
There isn't just like it's
always an interpretation.
So everything we experience is
interpreted reality, and the
interpretation, our
interpretation of reality is the
story that we live in.
That's right.
SPEAKER_03: What's so
fascinating to me is that I
think most of the time we don't
even know that we have this
framework that we're kind of
using in the background.
Yeah.
It's funny you made the joke
about the the background
application.
Right, running around your
computer.
Yeah, or or when you're you're
swiping up on your phone and you
realize that like something's
been running and and slowing it
down for like you know, a month.
There is, this is framework that
we kind of we have as a
structure and we don't even know
what's going on.
So we we end up it ends up
convincing us that it's reality,
that this is the right way, that
this is truth.
And it it's it becomes really
hard for us to start seeing life
from different perspectives.
It kind of ends up guiding our
vision and it guides how we kind
of see what's coming at us.
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
It reminds me a little bit of
you know negative thinking
patterns that we've talked about
with the negativity buffet, the
jumping to conclusions, because
the vr the framework that we
create for ourselves in our
story is really like this set of
conclusions that we've drawn
about who we are, what we
deserve, how our relationships
work, and what's possible, and
most importantly, I think what's
impossible.
There's a lot of like sort of
like canceling ourselves out
within these stories.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: I keep coming back
often in sessions and and
conversations, and I'm I I keep
thinking of this book, and I I
don't know if you've ever if
you've ever read it, but Man's
Search for Meaning by a huge,
huge fan by Viktor Frankel,
right?
And Viktor Frankel was an
Austrian psychiatrist who
actually survived the Nazi
concentration camps, and he
spent the rest of his life
writing about what keeps human
beings going in the face of
unbearable suffering.
Right.
No.
And it it it sounds like a big
jump from what we're talking
about, but but there's a really
important connection here, and I
think it is he he talks about
the so one of the things he he
kind of addresses is this this
between stimulus and response,
right?
Between like what's coming in
and how we interpret it and and
act, there's a space.
In that space is our power to
choose our response.
And that's where our growth and
our freedom kind of lie, right?
So so when we think about how
information's coming in and how
we're seeing the world, we have
we have a moment and there's
this this small little area
where we we get to actually have
some choice over what we want to
do next, oftentimes we miss it.
unknown: Right.
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's
that's the key here.
And that's why I'm bringing up
Victor Frankel because he he in
Man Searcher Meeting, in the
first half of the book, he
writes all about his history and
and his experience in the Nazi
concentration camps and the
difference between the people
who he saw give up and what
happened and how he ended up
surviving.
Right.
Right.
And and and and it is so much
focus on just that little tiny
space of between stimulus and
response.
Totally.
Totally.
So we're gonna talk about that
that gap between what happens
and and how you respond.
And that's where the story
lives.
And the whole point of today is
to make that space visible,
right?
We want to really highlight that
space.
Because that space gives sorry,
go ahead.
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
I get excited.
Because that space, because that
space gives us a choice.
Absolutely.
That's you know, and that's what
Victor Frankel talks about a lot
in the book, The Last of the
Human Freedoms, he calls it.
The the ability to make our own
choices about our attitude.
You know, it's and it's that
idea of it's not so much what
happens to us, it's how we
respond to what happens.
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
And I think, you know, just to
to kind of go over and we'll
we'll get more into this, the
that's sort of the idea behind
uh existential theory too in
therapy, right?
Is this this idea that we have
we have certain givens, there's
certain truths, and then we have
choice, and that's the scariest
thing of all.
Right.
Is that we actually have a
choice.
And sometimes we lose sight of
that or we don't see it.
And and that's the the crazy
thing about choices.
We we don't see it until we do.
It's just it doesn't exist.
And then all of a sudden we're
like, oh my God, I have a choice
here.
And it is this almost aha
moment.
Right.
SPEAKER_02: And especially when
circumstances are difficult.
It's so easy to just draw the
conclusion, lead to the
conclusion.
Okay, I have no choices.
I have no options here, I'm
screwed.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
We talk about agency all the
time, and that's kind of that
like how much say do I have in
how my life goes.
Right.
And we have a ton.
I want to clarify here that when
I talk about narrative, and you
and I kind of cover what the
story is, it's not a fairy tale.
Right.
This isn't this isn't like some
made up story that that we have.
It's it's going to be the lens
that we don't know that we're
actually looking at things
through.
And it shapes what we notice,
what we dismiss, what we reach
for, and what we don't bother
trying.
So it actually it's I I liken it
to having these we always think
about rose-colored glasses like
that, that statement, oh, you're
wearing rose-colored glasses.
I think about these filters too.
I think about our ears.
So our ears and our eyes kind of
provide these, they have these
filters that go over them that
we that we gain through
experience, through life,
especially early on.
And that really kind of informs
how how our narrative is set
because it's it's kind of
distorting some of the noise and
some of the information coming
in.
Right.
Totally.
SPEAKER_02: That affects how we
see our life, right?
And the other thing I think here
is these stories don't come out
of nowhere.
Right.
They they build slowly
throughout our lives, and you
know, especially through early
experiences, you know, and and
obviously repetition.
So those earliest d drafts of
the story.
I love, I'm gonna just really
milk this narrative, this
metaphor, right?
The the the earliest drafts of
the story coming from childhood,
not necessarily from dramatic
events.
You know, some of us did grow up
with traumatizing events and
circumstances, but others, you
know, a lot a lot of the
memories from our childhood are
sort of like the ordinary things
that we all experience, how our
emotions were received on a
day-to-day level, whether our
needs were met consistently or
unpredictably, what we had to do
to feel safe in our homes
growing up, what we had to do to
feel loved or accepted, what we
learned before words or without
words about whether the world
was a trustworthy place, that
Einstein quote, which I love and
I ask myself frequently, the
fundamental decision each of us
has to make is whether we live
in a hostile or a friendly
universe.
That really was determined for
many of us by our childhood
circumstances and environment.
SPEAKER_03: That's true.
And the in the the point we're
getting at now or today, and
what we'll we'll get to is that
that's not set in stone early
on.
No.
It sets a course, or maybe we we
grow accustomed to that pattern,
but that's not something that we
have to continue every day in
adulthood living, or even as a
young adult.
Very much.
So we get we get to have some
say in in whether we want to
look at it that way or not.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
But it really does feel like
it's set in stone.
Especially when we're young.
We come to these conclusions,
and once these stories form,
they start filtering everything
out.
Basically, not just filtering
out stuff, but just affecting
everything that comes after in
our experience.
Aaron Powell That's right.
SPEAKER_03: Well, you you had
mentioned these negative
negative thought patterns before
or unhelpful thinking styles.
And we've talked about that
before, you know, the the
negativity buffet.
Right.
So grab a bib.
That's right.
Eat up.
This is where thought filtering
comes into play.
And thought filtering is where
evidence that fits our story
gets noticed and remembered.
And evidence that contradicts
our story gets explained away.
We rationalize it.
It's also uh discrediting the
positive, which happens a lot.
So there's actually three or
four different cognitive
distortions that that kind of
fit with this narrative idea.
Right.
But when we think about it, and
it in and it's weird, the human
brain is so odd this way.
We just we're really good at
just like hanging on negative
stuff.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, it's this.
I'm gonna just I'm gonna keep
focusing on this negative
experience I had, or that, you
know, I must have said something
stupid in that, that at that
party I was at and definitely
embarrassed myself.
But we're totally ignoring all
of the other positive
experiences.
Right.
Right.
Those those were just one-offs.
That that that doesn't
contribute to the to my
narrative about myself.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but so many of
us are walking around with this
narrative that we're awful and
that we're subpar and that we
need to do better.
And so, yeah, absolutely.
The criticism, those which you
know, a lot of times those
moments are few and far between,
those are gonna land with us
because they support the story,
they support the narrative.
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
It's like this this idea also of
confirmation bias.
Totally.
Right.
It's not just noticing any
confirming evidence, but we
start to unconsciously organize
our life to keep producing it.
Right.
So which is that's that shift
from just discrediting the
positive to really internalizing
what you're talking about.
Like I feel I I think this way,
these things happen, I notice
this thing, I notice this thing.
Now I'm going to start kind of
orchestrating my life to
reaffirm and confirm the things
that I believe about myself.
Right.
What's it we call this
something?
We call it like kind of like
there's something when people
are doing this, they're kind of
it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Yeah.
And just totally drew like a
Tuesday morning blank right
there.
SPEAKER_02: No, but it's true.
That's exactly what it is.
Yeah.
And hey, in the power of
positive thinking, which many
people laugh at now, it just
seems so 70s or something.
But but, you know, that's
actually refuting that idea and
saying, like, hey, if we don't
feed into that self-fulfilling
prophecy that's usually
negative, we will have outcomes
that challenge the story and are
positive.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: A lot more
frequently than we think.
Everyone thinks, oh, I need to
assume the worst in order to
protect myself.
But in reality, there's no
evidence that assuming the worst
is, you know, it it's not like
that's any more likely to be the
outcome than assuming the best.
That's right.
SPEAKER_03: It's interesting,
right?
That that idea that that we're
just kind of like walking
through the world and that's
that fight or flight, that
anxiety, like, oh, there's
something always negative,
there's something always
dangerous that we have to deal
with.
And it feels that way sometimes.
And that's certainly, you know,
we we certainly have our
experience that contributes to
that and informs that.
But you know, that was it.
It was Heidegger, right?
And the the philosopher
Heidegger that that said, don't
worry.
SPEAKER_02: He made the point
that human beings never
encounter the world neutrally.
We're always going to see it
through a bias.
Right.
Um, we we have uh a bias that we
bring with us, a structure of
meaning.
Right.
So when we when we bring that
again, it's like the foregone
conclusion.
When we bring that bias, the
world we see is already
interpreted before we're
consciously aware of how we
interpret it.
And and that's just how our
minds work.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's this this
real automatic process, like
like super quick, right?
It just happens right away.
SPEAKER_02: Another way to
understand it is survival
mechanisms.
Yeah.
And the question is, you know,
is the lens that I'm bringing to
my everyday reality, does that
still fit the life that I'm
actually living?
So I mean, I have defense
mechanisms and survival
mechanisms from a time in my
life where, you know, things
were unsafe and unsettled.
Now my life looks really
different.
So when I bring that lens, you
know, always scanning for
safety, danger, it it's kind of
an outmoded operating system.
SPEAKER_03: It is, and it's it's
not a flaw, it's just how our
brain works, right?
SPEAKER_02: How our mind works.
We're trying to protect
ourselves.
Our brains are always trying to
protect our bodies.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: I feel like.
And the reality is our bodies, I
say this all the time with my
somatic work, right?
The our bodies are a lot smarter
than our brains.
Tell me, tell me what you mean
by that.
Our bodies sense things.
Being animals, uh, we're we're
still animals.
I think we're on our way to
becoming biomechanical.
But as of today in 2026, I'm
still an animal.
And the so given that our bodies
store information, and we talk
about trauma a lot, our bodies
store trauma.
The body kind of knows when
we're safe, when we're not, our
bodies will be clued in to
whatever our experiences and
whatever our sensations are,
often before the brain is.
How often do you kind of like
use your brain to try to talk
yourself out of something that
you're feeling?
SPEAKER_03: Right.
It's interesting.
Like you're you're kind of
talking about this.
It's like a learned intuition.
Absolutely.
Like a feeling like how how much
space we take up in a room or
the way that I might hold my
breath while I'm like around
others, or even just posture.
If you if you're in a room full
of people or on the train, you
know, next time, just look at
how are people carrying
themselves?
Yeah.
How are they standing?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Are they hunched
over?
Most people have resting bitch
face.
They're scowling.
Yeah.
Even if they're just like
looking at their phone.
You know, how often do you see
somebody with like a r a resting
face that's a smile?
SPEAKER_03: You know, I gotta be
honest, I've been trying to do
that more often.
And I realize I do that, I try
to do that when I catch myself,
which I have to say is like once
a week.
It's it's a work in progress.
But I've been trying to catch
myself around my kids and do
that.
Yeah.
Because I realize even if I just
have a flat affect, it's
probably something people could
interpret as maybe more
negative.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Because we're always trying to
impatience or fed up or in a bad
mood or whatever it might be.
And so I it is something I've
been aware of.
And I'm and I would I'd throw
that out to everybody to try and
just be a little more cognizant
of when you're sitting, just are
you smiling?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
Not that you have to smile and
pretend everything's happy, but
just change your affect a little
bit.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: This was a trick I I
think my mom had told me when
she she was a receptionist for a
company, and she said that one
of the things she was told is
when you answer the phone, smile
while you're talking because
it's going to come across even
even though people can't see
you.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, totally.
It changes everything.
That's a void, as you know, all
those years I was doing
voiceovers.
Right.
It's that's a that's a
directorial trick that you will
get told in sessions, like over
and over again.
Do it with a smile now.
And it does.
It changes the the performance,
it changes the sound.
SPEAKER_03: Well, it also
changes your feeling about what
you're doing.
Yeah.
And so even if it's something
tedious or negative or that you
don't want to be there, you
actually that's a that's in that
little space where you get to
have a say over here's the
information coming in.
I'm making it a conscious effort
to change my response.
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
And that's where the benefit of
humor comes in.
Because how do we smile?
How do we make ourselves smile?
Usually it's from laughing.
You and I had a very tense
morning this morning, and for
for different reasons.
And when we had a really good
laugh right before we started
recording today, it was I needed
that.
And I was able to actually smile
genuinely.
It did.
SPEAKER_03: It took the air out
of the negativity balloon.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
And that's like how we can
approach life.
I mean, life is uncomfortable.
We talk about this all the time.
There's a lot of discomfort that
we need to tolerate in order to
kind of get through.
If we can find the humor,
because there's pretty much
humor to be found anywhere if we
look for it, we're going to be
able to smile more.
Well, yeah, you can find the
absurdity, you know, the humor
and in in all of it.
And there's because I do a lot
of work with substance use
disorder and and rehab and
recovery.
I mean, a lot of people who
develop complicated
relationships with substance
use, underneath that, their
story often looks like, I can't
handle this.
I don't belong.
I'm not enough.
I have to numb out in order to
just survive.
And in that case, the substance
serves that story.
And understanding that that
story is part of understanding
what happened.
And it's also key, I think, to
changing behavior.
Because so many people who are
in treatment for substance use
disorder, they want essentially
a behavioral modification.
And changing the story becomes
essential to that.
SPEAKER_03: Changing the story,
and I think this is where
substance abuse, and I'm I'm
just going to be very blunt
about it, it's where substance
abuse treatment got it so wrong
for so so many years.
Totally.
Which is let's just treat the
substance, let's just treat the
addiction.
And this is where I think a lot
of people still struggle with,
you know, the idea of like if
somebody is using substance and
they have a substance use
disorder and they're getting
high, they're drinking, whatever
it might be, the issue is not
the drug or the alcohol.
No, it's a symptom.
It is a symptom of painful
relationship with self.
Right.
Right.
This idea that, and and as you
said before, I don't belong, I'm
not enough.
And when we think about that, we
go back to these ideas of shame.
Right.
Remember, and and shame is I'm a
mistake.
Yeah.
I'm not good enough.
I don't belong here.
I'm not part of.
And traditionally we've treated
substance abuse by sending
people away and sequestering
them and getting them away from
everybody and treating them as
if they have some kind of
problem with like some moral and
value issue.
SPEAKER_02: No, like they're
lepers.
It's it's you know, like they're
they're the other.
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
And that's that's actually the
worst thing we can do.
For somebody who doesn't feel
like they're enough and they
don't belong, we shouldn't be
sending them away.
No, absolutely.
Right.
So I'm gonna get off my soapbox
now and get and get back into,
you know.
Keep it handy.
Keep it definitely keep it
handy.
It's one of those days.
SPEAKER_02: The the other thing
about narrative therapy, it
uncovers this truth that
stories, you know, not not all
stories are problematic.
SPEAKER_03: No.
SPEAKER_02: Some of them we
need, some of them are great for
us, and uh, they're certainly
worth keeping, you know, these
stories that protect.
SPEAKER_03: Well, they it's it's
kind of this idea of like, hey,
I've been through I've been
through something really hard.
I can actually figure this out.
Sometimes we we interpret it in
in a really healthy way.
Like you can go through really
hard things.
We talked about this when we
were, I think we were covering
trauma, right?
Like sometimes hard things are
just hard.
Right.
It doesn't mean we're
traumatized by it.
It just means like, man, I
overcame that.
There was a challenge.
And I think that that's a really
important reframe on a specific
event.
And that I think we we can have
some more choice over that,
right?
Or we we learn in our our
narrative can be that we're
resilient.
Yeah.
And we've earned that through
experience, right?
I've I've earned this, I'm
resilient.
I have built up this kind of
like ability to survive and
thrive and kind of like make it
through some really difficult
times.
SPEAKER_02: I always bring that
out with clients and with
friends.
Anyone who's going through
something really hard and feels
like they can't make it.
Yeah.
I'll often point out, hey, you
got this far.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_02: You have obviously
gone through hard stuff in order
to get here.
And you've made it this far.
Who's to say, you know, that
you're not going to keep going?
SPEAKER_03: Right.
The other story that really
opens opens us up, I think, is
that connection is possible.
And that's built from when we
think about a relationship, or
maybe there's one person in our
life that, you know, that really
loved us or that we have a
connection with, and we might
have a bunch of other
relationships that have just
fallen apart and been awful and
maybe, you know, abusive,
whatever it might be, but or
just negative.
But if we can find one one
person, it allows us that
discrepancy in our mind to say,
yeah, but wait, I I do have that
one time.
So I am lovable and I am capable
of loving.
Totally.
And that's that's story like a
narrative that can work really
well.
Yeah.
There's also stories that really
close things down, right?
And that's kind of what we were
talking about before, like, you
know, or maybe I'm too much.
We were talking about cod
codependency.
Oh, I just love I love too hard,
right?
But I'm I'm too much, you know.
SPEAKER_02: And that's probably
because the people around you at
the time you got that story were
ill-equipped to handle any sort
of emotion.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
So they tell you your feelings
are like overwhelming, right?
I can't handle your feelings,
Kenyon.
You're overwhelming for me.
SPEAKER_02: So then we dim our
light.
Yeah.
I don't want you to dim your
light.
Well, thank you.
I'm gonna brighten it again.
Crank it up.
I have to earn my place.
I have to earn my keep.
That's from a household I grew
up in was very transactional.
There was like a sense of, you
know, love is conditional.
It's a contract deal.
That's right.
And you're only as good as your
last performance, really.
That's how much you that's how
much love you get.
Yeah.
As opposed to being loved in and
of yourself, you know, just for
who you are.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
Just for for existing and
everything that you have is
okay.
Right.
The message is that, well, some
of this is not okay.
So we also I think have these
stories that go through our head
that closeness leads to pain.
And that I think stems from just
straight up experience.
Yeah.
You know, where it's like every
time, every time I am
vulnerable, every time I share,
every time I get next to
somebody, I get hurt.
Right.
Right.
And if we think about if that
has been the experience, then of
course, like we're gonna put up
all sorts of walls and protect
ourselves and keep ourselves
alone because we don't want to
put ourselves out there to get
hurt.
No getting hurt.
So we avoid it.
It sucks.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
It does suck and it hurts.
And it's probably better to
experience that and then lose it
as opposed to just locking down
because of a story that
closeness leads to pain and
never experiencing any
connection.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
The test for this, Kenyon, is
not whether the story was ever
true.
It some of these are completely
accurate when they were formed.
Right?
Like this, what we're talking
about.
Like, oh, I've I've been
vulnerable.
Somebody took that information
from me and then hurt me with
it.
Right.
Hundred percent accurate.
Right.
Risk good response to data,
right?
That's right.
The real test here is whether
that information is still useful
and whether it's costing us
something that we'd rather have.
So have I lost out, for example,
on new relationships and
connections and moments to be
vulnerable because I'm going on
information that happened 25
years ago.
Right.
That's old data.
Why are we why you know why are
we using old data to form, you
know, new opinions and and guide
our life?
We should be I just use the word
should, man.
It's a bad word.
SPEAKER_04: Stop shooting all
over yourself.
SPEAKER_03: We can invite new
information in.
And I think this is part of the
process.
Like, how often can we take new
information in and new
experiences?
How often do we create a
situation where we allow new
experiences in?
And that's a part of I think how
we start to deal with this idea
of changing our story is hey,
let me look at, yes, I've been
hurt five times by people in my
life when I talk about this
thing.
You know what though?
I'm going to tip the scale a
little bit.
Maybe I find somebody who I know
is gonna be a little more open,
maybe a little bit more
friendly, warm.
And I'm gonna go share with them
and see if I can create some new
information, collect some new
evidence that my ideas about my
life are are not so solidified
and concrete.
SPEAKER_02: We in recovery
language, we often talk about
that in terms of going where
it's warm.
If I have a need and I go to
somebody who's cold who's gonna
shut me down, then that's gonna
reinforce the story that I can't
be close to anybody.
I'm not gonna get what I need,
I'm not gonna get what I want.
But if we go where it's warm and
we, as you said, suss out people
ahead of time and say, oh, this
person feels safe.
Maybe that's a therapist.
Maybe that's your aunt or uncle.
Right.
Maybe it's a friend from, you
know, your past at one point.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
You know, it's it's interesting.
The the way that we look at it,
right?
It's it's it's like we look at
past experience and we think,
oh, that's just wisdom.
I'm I'm so wise and experienced
because I've had these these
moments in my life where it has
kind of contributed to how I'm
I'm leading my life now, and
I've it's wisdom.
It's not always wisdom.
You know, it's it's just
experience.
SPEAKER_02: It's experience,
yeah.
And sometimes it's a trauma
response.
SPEAKER_03: And sometimes it,
yeah, you're right.
The two psychologists that came
up with narrative therapy.
And you know, it's interesting.
These are White and Epstin,
yeah.
White and Epston, yeah.
Michael White and David Epstein.
And they really, I think, honed
in on it.
So it's none of these things are
new concepts, right?
We've talked about this.
So you and I do we we just spent
the time before this reading
through the the Tao of Stowe.
Right.
And these Taoist and Stoic
quotes.
And it's like this philosophy is
thousands of years old.
Thousands of years old.
Narrative approach, you know,
the way that we look at
ourselves in the world,
relationships, all this stuff.
It's thousands of years since
human beings have been walking
the earth.
Right.
But Michael White and David
Epston really spent their entire
career working on specifically
this thing, like the idea of
narrative.
And the idea that we are you are
not your problem.
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
I want to reiterate, tell me
that again.
The idea here is that you are
not your problem.
You have a story about yourself
that's become dominant and maybe
limiting, but once you can
externalize that story and
realize it's not you, you can
start to find all the places
where that story doesn't
actually apply to you.
SPEAKER_03: You told me to keep
my soapbox handy.
Please, my God, whip it out.
I'm sliding it over.
This is the issue generally in
the United States with the
medical model and the medical
approach to mental health, to
physical health, to everything.
It's this idea that we are our
problem.
If you look at how we're
diagnosed and everything's
labeled, people hold on to that
because we're looking for
answers, right?
Human beings want to categorize
things.
We want to put things in a nice
little bucket.
So you go to the doctor and they
say, Hey, you've got this.
And it's all of a sudden, well,
now I've I've got this
diagnosis.
I am depressed.
How how often, and this is what
I loved about social work.
And and, you know, when I first
got in this field, I wanted to
go the psych direction.
And a couple of close friends of
mine had said, Hey, you know,
maybe you should look at social
work instead.
That seems to make a little more
sense for you, and you can get
and you can really go out and do
what you want.
So I was like, okay, let me look
at this.
And then when I started looking
more into like social work and
the idea of like the person in
environment, that's really what
we're talking about here, right?
Yeah.
We're not our diagnoses.
You're not, you're not a
depressed person, you're a
person who is depressed.
Yeah.
You're not an anxious person,
you are a person who has
anxiety.
Person first.
Person first, always.
And you're part of a system.
Yes.
It's not like you're just living
on an island.
That's right.
So if we can say I'm a person
existing in the world, and my
story is, you know, my is
historically the story says, oh,
I'm dealing with these things.
I've I've got these internal
issues.
Right.
What narrative therapy is, the
idea behind this is like, no,
no, no.
Let's take that issue and let's
set it outside of you.
Now you're just a person in the
world and you're dealing with
this thing as an external
external problem.
It allows you to really step
back and look at it and say, oh
my God, how am I going to
address this?
What are the different ways?
Who can I call in to help me
now?
Right.
I can call in teammates, I can
call reinforcements, I can bring
in anybody I need to to really
address this issue that's in
front of me.
Right.
It's not, you can't call in
people to deal with the issue
that's inside of you if you
think it's an internal, like a
flaw.
SPEAKER_02: Like a flaw.
Right.
That's a character issue.
No, absolutely.
You explained that to me when I
was getting into this, and you
said, you know, here's the
wonderful thing about the social
work angle.
That's how you termed it.
Yeah.
You know, it's we're not just
reducing people to diagnoses or
conditions.
We're seeing people first and
we're seeing people in an
environment, and we're
exercising a whole lot of
empathy for what they've gone
through and what that system is
around them.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: And treating it
accordingly.
SPEAKER_03: This removes the
shame, right?
It's it's like if it if we
remove that idea that we're
fundamentally flawed, yeah.
We get to actually work on we
don't feel like we are are
awful.
No.
I keep thinking, you know, this
is such it's been such a
fascinating process in working
with couples too.
You know, this idea of like if
you and you just think if if
those of you listening to it
just have a disagreement with
like your partner or or just
somebody close to you in your
life, if you have a disagreement
with them about how something's
going, it doesn't have to be
this thing where you look at
them and go, well, you're wrong
and I'm right.
And that's where I think most
people get caught.
They get caught in a loop of
trying to prove their voice.
Scorekeeping.
Yeah, score keeping, trying to
prove that they're right, or
just like, hey, I need you to
hear my part of it.
I need you to hear my part of
it.
We can use narrative therapy and
and and that dynamic too, in the
idea of like, let's remove the
problem from the two people.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_03: Set it, set it
outside.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_03: Often it's about
something that has nothing to do
with the two people.
Right.
It's how the other it's how the
two people are interpreting a
situation.
And then they can stop
demonizing each other.
That would be nice.
It's that simple.
Right.
In three minutes, we can solve
your issues.
There you go.
There you go.
So, can you how do we know that
a story's running?
Great question.
SPEAKER_02: Great question.
Somebody who's a fan of
narrative therapy said, my story
speaks to me in my own voice.
So it's really deceptive.
And our stories feel like
reality.
So it's really challenging to
notice that we're in one.
Here are some signs that a story
is operating one, a story that
that we probably would be better
off without, or you know, that's
limiting us.
An outsized reaction, a reaction
that feels bigger than the
moment actually calls for.
So the charge belongs to
something older, not this
specific situation.
I have another friend who's very
wise who says if we get upset,
we're never upset about the
situation at hand.
SPEAKER_03: Right?
It's baggage.
SPEAKER_02: It's baggage.
That's what you're saying,
right?
Something that we say a lot in
recovery is if it's hysterical,
it's historical.
So basically speaking to the
fact that like we're we get, as
you said, baggage.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
It is.
And I think the the other thing
to look at here are patterns
that repeat across different
relationships or jobs or
friendships.
If the same thing keeps
happening, the same dynamic, the
same interaction, the same drama
with a different cast, it's
probably not all the other
people.
It's probably the mirror might
be a good thing in that case,
right?
So it's it's probably something
that we're bringing to each
relationship or the way that
we're also viewing the world.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: I remember like
there are certain things that
really are hard for me to hear,
criticisms.
And but the the reality is I've
heard them from every single
person I've ever gotten close to
at one point or another.
Usually it's a girlfriend or now
a wife.
They'll say this one thing to
me.
And it's like, and it used to
really just piss me off.
But after I hear it so many
times, it's like, oh, okay.
It's not all these other people.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
No, you you don't it's hard to
admit that, isn't it?
Totally.
Yeah.
I don't want to I don't want to
admit that maybe this is a me
thing.
This has got to be a you thing.
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
That's the initial response.
But as the old saying goes, you
know, if somebody tells you
you're a horse, you can tell
them to F off.
If two people tell you you're a
horse, you maybe look in the
mirror.
And if three people tell you
you're a horse, then you go out
and buy a saddle.
SPEAKER_03: I don't think I've
heard that.
But now, unfortunately, for the
rest of my sessions today,
that's all that's going to be
going through my head.
You know what Kenyon said.
You know what your problem is?
You're a horse.
Exactly.
Wow.
Here we are.
There's the other the other
thing when we know that like a
we have like a limiting story
repeating in our in our mind is
that there's just this sense of
inevitability.
Right.
I hear this all the time.
This always happens to me.
Or this is the hand that I was
dealt.
Here's this is just the the deck
of cards, right?
This is just how it's going to
be.
This is inevitable.
I'm always in this situation.
SPEAKER_02: It's a prelude to
resignation, which often leads
to depression.
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
And then that resignation,
actually, it's interesting.
That's that's that idea of
right, I'm I'm just somebody who
does this.
Uh it's just how I am.
Right.
Right.
This is just the way it is.
This is who I am.
I'm wired this way.
I can't change.
People don't change.
SPEAKER_02: There's that passive
reinforcement of the story.
Yeah, it's rough.
You talked about this earlier,
but I'll bring it up again.
If there's a tendency to dismiss
compliments, oh yeah,
discrediting the positive,
right?
Exactly.
Minimizing things that go well.
If there's something, if there
is evidence that contradicts a
limiting story, you dismiss it
or you explain it away.
Well, that was a fluke.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
It's a one-off, right?
That was that was some weird
thing in the universe.
Totally.
And then this idea, I think,
that uh this goes along with the
shame, right?
Which I think is what we're
getting at here is that under
underneath the narrative here,
there's there's a real issue
with shame.
And it's that there's this uh
persistent sense of not really
belonging.
Right?
I don't belong here.
Even when we're welcomed, even
when we're like I mean, when you
walk into a room and everybody's
like, hey, I'm so glad you're
here.
It's so great to see you, and
you're like, I just don't feel
right here.
Right.
Something just feels off.
SPEAKER_02: That's probably you.
Me?
Yeah.
No, no.
Oh, I thought you were like,
wait, what?
I'm just gonna attack you on
air, Chris.
Damn.
No, I but yeah, I mean, it's
it's something in what you're
saying, if it doesn't match, if
the insides and the outsides
don't match, if the environment,
what the data you're getting
from your environment doesn't
match how you feel, then maybe
there's something going on
internally.
Maybe it's a story, a negative
or limiting story about how
you'll never belong.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
I can't tell you the mental
gymnastics I just went through
trying to also figure out like
what did I do in the last hour
and a half or the last six
months or eight months where you
would think that that's me.
I was like, oh my God.
I can't my brain was going so
quick just now, just like, wait,
what did I do?
What did I do?
What did I do?
What did I do?
That's probably that's probably
a narrative I should take a look
at.
Right.
SPEAKER_02: Definitely,
definitely.
I have the same thing.
And yeah, because I was
criticized, but possibly
justifiably for doing something,
for making a mistake.
Shame, as you say, tells us we
are a mistake.
You can't afford to make a
mistake.
Once you make a mistake, you're
forever tainted.
That's right.
SPEAKER_03: You'll never do
anything right again.
Well, and that entrenches that
story.
And so any contradictory
evidence doesn't update it.
It just gets neutralized right
away.
That doesn't matter.
And, you know, if anybody does
give us contradicting
information, right, they only
said it because they don't
really know me, they don't know
the real me, they don't know
what's underneath, they don't
know how awful I really am or
what I'm what I'm capable of.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
Huge barrier to intimacy.
That comes up a lot with
relationships, new relationships
where you know somebody's you're
getting to know somebody,
somebody appears to like you,
and then your story set, you
know, your that that idea of,
oh, well, no, I'm disqualified
from connection.
SPEAKER_03: So we block people
out.
So let's look at some physical
tells.
Like how do we tell when when
there's like a negative, we have
that narrative, right?
That remember, because we don't
know we have it until we know.
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
Well, again, going back to what
we were talking about before,
the body knows often the body is
quicker than the brain to and so
if you're walking into a room
and you find yourself like
really tensing up, or oftentimes
you'll see shrinking, sort of
like, how do I become invisible
in this room?
I do not want to be seen.
The body is basically saying, I
don't want to be seen.
So you kind of hunch down, or
you know, maybe you sit in a
chair if everyone else is
standing, and that's a sign.
Bracing yourself before a
certain conversation.
Maybe you feel your heart rate
start to quicken.
Maybe you you find yourself
clenching your fists, clenching
your jaw.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
Holding your breath without
realizing that's a huge one.
So many times I can think about
conversations I've had with
people where they're like, I
didn't even realize I didn't
breathe.
It's one of the simplest things,
too, as like a therapist, just
to be aware of when you're
working with people and you're
sitting in a room with somebody,
just focus on the breathing
that's happening.
Mm-hmm and whether or not you're
both breathing.
Right.
Sometimes I recognize that when
I'm listening, I'm like, oh my
God, I haven't taken a breath in
like 30 seconds.
No.
What's going on here?
SPEAKER_02: Oh God, so many of
the things I've say to clients,
I need to hear myself.
And that's one of the benefits.
Oh, that that old chestnut.
But it's true.
I the and and also I found when
I'm feeling unmanageable, when I
am tense, often it's like, oh,
taking a breath.
Let me just take a breath.
We've talked about this in other
episodes, but I'll remind us.
Taking a breath can change our
actually literally change our
our brain chemistry.
Depending on who much oxygen is
in you.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, the more
the we talk about this with uh
diaphragmatic breathing, your
box breathing or the what is it,
four, two, four, or whatever
combination of numbers you want
to use.
But that idea that if you
breathe in your stomach nice and
slow and not into your chest,
you are resetting your
sympathetic and parasympathetic
nervous response.
Yeah, I just did it.
Feel good?
I feel much better.
It's so funny.
Sink into your seat a little.
SPEAKER_02: I just yeah, I just
kind of relax a little bit.
SPEAKER_03: I just don't want to
take a deep breath on the
microphones.
Well, it's not that kind of a
show.
It's not not yet.
You want to talk about bad
faith?
Yeah, there's a there's because
I love existential philosophy
and psychology.
You can't get enough of it.
Yeah.
I have colleagues, former
colleagues, that that I know
would was just they it's like
just an automatic response.
It's probably my narrative now,
but that they would just roll
their eyes if I if I bring it up
because they're like, oh, he's
gonna talk about those four
truths again and how everybody's
gonna die.
So we just just like let it go.
SPEAKER_02: I love uh dude, I
can't get enough of it.
Like, I mean, I remember the
first time I read Paul Tillich's
The Meaning of Meaninglessness,
and was in that was my
introduction to existential
philosophy.
And I was like, wait, these guys
are optimists.
SPEAKER_03: It all comes back to
choice, Kenyon.
Yeah.
It all comes back to choice.
So this is there are truths in
the world, and I'm not gonna get
into them all now.
I'm gonna save that for another
time, but but there are truths
and givens, and we have a
choice.
And it is the same thing Victor
Frankel talked about.
Absolutely.
And it's the same thing.
So it's interesting, all these
these they were all the stoic
and and existential
philosophers, and they they
talked about all these
hardships, and then the
psychologists and and people who
worked in mental health started
to take that on and and and turn
it into like this idea of like,
okay, what do we do with that
psychically?
How are we how are we utilizing
that or how are we running from
it often?
Right.
And so I think of Yalum often
because I love group therapy.
And he was like, he just made it
so easy to to kind of like
distill and and and and you
know, digest.
And I think of that that's he
always goes on about the four
truths, right?
Responsibility, you know,
meaning, death, and loneliness.
And that we have a choice.
We get stuck in those spots.
We all get stuck in one of those
or all of them as human beings,
and then but we have a choice.
And so it's it's understanding
what the reality is and then
looking at like, okay, what do I
want to do with that?
It's the same thing that
narrative therapy then builds
on, which is here's the story,
here's what can happen, how am I
going to make a choice to
change?
So the idea of bad faith here,
though, is that we treat
ourselves as a fixed being.
As a thing almost, not like a
person.
Yes, as as as like not living,
right?
There's no freedom.
We just kind of like there's no
freedom of choice.
No.
And we want to treat ourselves
as a person, right?
So instead of saying that's just
the that's just the way I am or
that's just who I am, which
actually closes off any
possibility of change, the
antidote is is actually
recognizing that we are always,
at every moment, in the process
of becoming.
Right?
We're always moving forward and
that the story's not finished.
We're still writing it.
The way that I present this to
people is we're opening a book,
you're writing your book, you're
the author.
You have not finished it.
It's you're not done with the
book until you're dead.
Right.
Like you you're just not.
It's right.
So every day, at every moment,
at every microsecond, you have
the ability just to write a
different letter.
You can write a different word,
you can write a different
sentence, a different paragraph,
a different page, a different
chapter.
I could go on and on.
No different volumes of the
book.
And by the way, just because you
Had one really awful chapter
which might have been full of
drama and horror and terror and
everything else, the next
chapter can shift.
You can start to change it.
And no one else has a say in how
that goes.
Right.
And that's the really important
distinction here in a narrative
approach to life.
No one else has the say, and no
one else gets to dictate what
our chapter says or what our
sentences say or our paragraphs.
We do.
Yeah.
That's it.
It's our own story.
What else helps?
I didn't I didn't just solve
this just now.
I thought I just solved this.
I just told you.
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
What what more do you want?
Seriously.
What more do you want?
Well, one thing is we talk about
this a lot, but you know, like
awareness before action.
So notice we can't revise a
story we can't see.
So let's observe, let's slow
down, let's, you know,
especially if we have like a
strong reaction to something.
Ask what story just got
activated?
What where is this coming from?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
And we do that through things
like journaling.
I used to think this was so
corny, just this idea of like,
oh, journal, write it down,
journal, journal, journal.
But it's actually it's such a
phenomenal process.
And people that I think would
never journal come up to me and
they're like, dude, I was
journaling about this the other
day.
And I was like, wow.
There's you can't go wrong with
it.
No.
Just write your ideas freeform.
Just hit it.
So noticing where the story
comes from, whose voice is
actually in it.
So you mentioned this before.
Our narrative becomes toxic and
hurtful when we internalize it
and it becomes our voice.
Right.
Because it often didn't start
that way.
SPEAKER_04: No.
SPEAKER_03: It was whatever
other person or system or
whatever was in place.
It doesn't always have to be a
person.
It can be a system issue too,
right?
When we internalize that and it
and it goes from somebody else
to our voice, it becomes our
responsibility.
And we think about this all the
time.
You hear your parents, you hear
people, I hear parents say, Oh,
what about did I screw up my
kids?
Did I do this?
You know, or you hear somebody
who's like in young adulthood
saying, Well, yeah, like this,
they always said this to me, or
this is what my experience was.
But this is the existential
psychology part, which is at
some point it becomes our
responsibility to fix it.
Right.
Right.
Even if it was somebody else's
voice.
Yeah.
So recognize where the voice is
coming from and then name it and
be like, no, that was their
opinion about me.
That's not my opinion about me.
SPEAKER_02: Maybe that was my
third grade teacher, or maybe
that was my mom, or you know,
maybe that was my abusive first
girlfriend or boyfriend.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
Or my you, you, you, you, and
yet again, another flashback, my
third grade teacher.
That was a rough one.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: And that's not to
say that like identifying the
person doesn't erase the story,
but it it does help us challenge
it.
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
In narrative therapy, Michael
White called this like the
sparkling, these sparkling
moments, right?
Right.
It's these moments that we can
actually look for in our story
where we're looking for the
exceptions deliberately.
And there's no rule that says we
can't tip the scale in our favor
a little bit.
We're allowed to put our finger
on the scale and say, well, I'm
gonna look for the good evidence
here.
There might be a ton of bad
evidence still that we that
we're looking at that that kind
of contribute to our story.
But you know what?
I'm gonna look for one or two
good things today that just say,
Yeah, no, dude, you're on point.
You're okay.
And that's that's what Michael
White called sparkling moments.
And it's it's the times when the
story's not true.
SPEAKER_02: And so we got to
look for that.
Look for the exceptions.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Like, for example,
like, oh, I always let people
down.
I always I I never show up.
I I can't, I'm not reliable.
Look for the time that you
didn't.
Look for the time that you
didn't let somebody down.
Look for the time that somebody
said, dude, I'm really glad that
you were there.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: That's a good one.
The somatic side, the body-based
kind of side to it is let your
because again, our bodies are
ahead of our brains most of the
time, if not all of the time,
let your body try a new story.
And what is it like to if you're
somebody who walks into a room
and feels like they need to
shrink, how about trying an
experiment?
Walk into a room and take up
space.
Practice it.
Practice it.
Just try it.
Just adjust.
And it can be a really, really
subtle adjustment, but just
adjust the way you stand, the
way you sit, slow your breath
down.
You know, the body often, I
would say always, needs to
practice a new story before the
mind's gonna believe it.
We can't always think our way
into a different way of being or
a different sense of who we are,
a sense of self.
You gotta move into it.
SPEAKER_03: What's the the
recovery saying?
You can't think your way into
right action, but you can act
your way into right thinking.
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
And that is brilliant.
Because it's evidence but I
didn't I didn't coin it.
SPEAKER_03: Just say you did.
Just lie and say you did.
SPEAKER_02: Let's copyright.
I got a great lawyer.
SPEAKER_03: It's mine now.
No.
But you're right.
Like, say it again, one more
time.
You can't think your way into
right acting, but you can act
your way into right thinking.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_02: Because again, the
the the body's ahead of the
brain.
The brain always wants a court
case.
The brain wants a story.
The brain wants evidence.
That's right.
Because the brain, then that's
the brain doing what it's
supposed to be doing.
It's supposed to be scanning for
danger.
It's supposed to be protecting
us.
And often it sabotages us in the
service of trying to protect us.
And that's what these old
stories do.
These stories from, you know, a
time when we needed to survive,
we outgrow them.
So salt and peppa were wrong?
SPEAKER_03: Salt and pepper are
never wrong.
They just took a cognitive
approach to it.
They did.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: And there's a little
dissonance in that.
That's okay.
There's space for both.
There is space for both salt and
peppa.
The other thing that we can try,
and this is I love this one
because I just love relational
experiments.
These are the most durable
things, right?
These relational experiments and
relational experience, this is
what I think has the most effect
on us overall.
This is why when everybody's
like, what approach to therapy
is the most effective?
Sitting in a room with another
human being.
Right.
It doesn't matter whether it's
CBT, DBT, MBT, whatever BT.
It's and and people have they
there's been tons of research on
this.
Yeah.
Right?
And and clients have said over
and over and over again, the
only thing that mattered was the
relationship.
So relation, the relationship is
the most durable thing.
And stories that are formed in a
relationship, they have they
tend to shift the most.
Right?
So we want, we want to try a
friendship where we're received
differently than our story has
predicted.
We want, we want to take a
moment where we might be asking
for something and we actually
get it.
Absolutely.
Or somebody asks us and we
actually can give.
I love I love that one because I
think that that that one feels
really good for me.
It's I I feel like I'm I'm okay
asking people for help if I need
it and asking for things I might
need.
But the the one I really want
to, the one that makes me feel
like a good human being is when
somebody asks me for something
and I can and I can deliver.
A hundred percent.
And I can be reliable and I can
be solid, and I just it it's
yeah.
SPEAKER_02: That's how we get
better, I believe, is by being
of service to others.
And it always, especially when
we're going through hard stuff,
it never ceases to surprise me.
Oh wow, I have the capacity to
help somebody, to be useful.
It's a huge self-esteem booster.
SPEAKER_03: It is, and that that
experience that you're talking
about, Kenyon, is more valuable
than just saying the words.
So if I say, Oh, I'm worthy or
I'm good enough or I'm helpful,
that's one thing.
It's the action that you need to
to engage in.
And then when you feel it, when
you when your body actually
internalizes that and you
experience that the feeling of
worthiness, oh, that's gold.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: That is, that's
where it lands.
And that's where we can change.
So we are not our stories.
SPEAKER_03: No, and I want to I
want to close with this idea and
really reiterate this that we're
not we're not our stories, the
past.
Right.
They inform who we are, they
contribute to who we are.
In no way do they dictate who we
are.
No.
They don't have to.
SPEAKER_02: No, but what about
that little voice inside of me
that's like, okay, if I am not
my story, then who am I?
SPEAKER_03: That is a great
question.
And you are then again stuck in
the existential loop of like, oh
my God, what do I do?
So you have anxiety, fear of the
unknown.
Yeah.
And I think many people hold on
to their old narratives because
they're really worried or really
afraid of what else they could
be.
Or they're 45 years old or 46
years old.
Or 50.
Or 50.
And they're like, well, now
what?
Now who am I am I gonna redefine
myself?
Am I gonna try to figure out who
I am?
This has always been who I I
have been.
Even if it's negative, even if
it's hurtful, I'm gonna continue
with it.
So I think part of the part of
the fear that comes up is if I
let this go, if I let go of this
old story, who am I really?
Right.
And that's the big that's always
the big question.
We're asking that always, who am
I?
What am I?
What's important to me?
SPEAKER_02: Which the Greeks
were on to.
Know thyself.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Rolo May, who is
also an American, is usually
think of the French making
existentialism popular, but Oh,
but Rolo May was amazing.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, but an
American who brought these
existential ideas, you know,
just kind of like mention that
the lexicon.
Imagine that.
SPEAKER_03: Imagine that.
SPEAKER_02: But May wrote that
the capacity to be to be aware
of ourselves is what makes
genuine change possible.
SPEAKER_03: Again, it's this
idea.
If you don't know, you don't
know.
Totally.
You can't you can't change what
you don't know.
As Biggie rapped.
Yeah.
We're really throwing it back
today.
Yeah.
You can step back, you can look,
and you can ask yourself whether
this is actually true or is it
just familiar?
Is it just something is it just
something that's been repeated
over and over again?
Or or is it my truth?
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02: And in and again,
like the idea of, you know, am I
a terrible person, or do I just
have this story that says I'm a
terrible person?
You know, one feels like a
definition, a fact about me, the
other is something that I'm just
carrying.
And as you point out all the
time, baggage can be put down.
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
You can you can store it, you
can leave it someplace, you can
throw it over the bridge into a
river with a bunch of rocks in
the bottom of it, whatever you
want to do.
It's it is our choice, 100%.
You know, in closing, Kenyon,
the the real takeaway here is
that the story that we live
inside is not a life sentence.
It's not written in stone, it's
not been preordained.
There's no like this is the path
you will follow.
Nobody's nobody's dictated that
for us.
We are in control of our own
story, we are writing it, and we
are doing it real time.
Right.
It's live.
Right.
No, absolutely.
As the famous Bill O'Reilly once
said.
Do this live.
SPEAKER_02: Do this live, that's
true.
But Frankel, whom I'd rather
quote than Bill O'Reilly, Victor
Frankel, again, shout out to Man
Search for Meeting, an
incredible work that I believe
everyone should read.
And if you haven't read it, go
get it.
And it's not long.
No.
Frankel survived things,
thankfully, most of us will
never face.
And what he came back with was,
hey, as I mentioned earlier, the
last of the human freedoms.
The last human freedom is the
freedom to choose how you
respond to any set of
circumstances.
It's not always what happens,
it's our relationship to what
happens.
It's not what happens to you,
it's what you do with it.
So that space, that pause we
always talk about between
something that happens and how
we respond to it.
So how do we sort of cultivate
that space, that you know, oh
wait, here's where I can pause,
and then kind of like doing
whatever we can to expand that
pause and learn to live in it,
that's that's the work we have
to do in narrative therapy.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
It's not a perfect new story.
It's it's just a choice about
the one that we've been living.
Choice is the key word.
Choice is the key word and the
the reaction versus response.
Like, don't just react to the
story, respond to it, widen that
space, look for that space
between stimulus and response.
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening
to Lumen.
If today's conversation
resonated with you, we encourage
you to follow, review, and share
Lumen with anyone you think
would appreciate it.
SPEAKER_03: We'll be back soon
with another conversation
designed to bring a little more
light to the human condition.
I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.
And I'm Kenyan Phillips, LMSW.
Until next time, take care of
yourselves and each other.
Lumen is for educational and
informational purposes only and
is not a substitute for therapy,
diagnosis, or treatment.
If you're experiencing a mental
health crisis, please contact
local emergency services or a
trusted mental health
professional.