So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

What does it really take to become a Chief Marketing Officer at a major law firm?

For Koree Khongphand-Buckman, the answer isn't a title. It's earning the trust, credibility, and influence to help shape the future of a firm. 
“The title of CMO was more about, what do you get to do? I wanted the opportunity to impact and drive particular things within a firm, and to work with leadership at the highest levels.” 

In this episode of So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast for People, legal marketing strategists Megan Senese and Jennifer Ramsey sit down with Koree, Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer at Foley & Lardner LLP, to discuss her journey from an accounting background to one of the most respected leadership roles in legal marketing.

From surviving her first week in legal marketing to building firmwide client feedback and lateral integration programs, Koree shares the lessons that helped her become a trusted advisor to firm leadership and why the best legal marketers think like business leaders.

Whether you're an aspiring CMO, a legal marketer looking to expand your influence, or a lawyer interested in how firms grow, this conversation is full of practical leadership advice you can apply immediately.

In this conversation, you’ll hear:
  • How Koree moved from accounting into legal marketing
  • What it takes to progress from marketer to strategic business leader
  • Why relationships often open more doors than titles
  • How to position yourself for leadership opportunities before you feel fully ready
  • Why owning your work changes how firm leaders see you
  • How Koree built client feedback and lateral integration programs from the ground up
  • Why the best CMOs ask better questions instead of pretending to have every answer
  • How to become a trusted advisor to lawyers and firm leadership
  • Why leadership does not have to be lonely
  • How great leaders create opportunities for the people around them
  • Why legal marketers should stop waiting for permission to grow their careers

About Koree Khongphand-Buckman: 

Koree Khongphand-Buckman is chief marketing & business development officer (CMBDO) at Foley & Lardner LLP where she is responsible for leading the firm’s business development, marketing, client service and branding efforts across all practices, industries, sectors and offices to help the firm achieve its strategic objectives. With 20 years of professional services marketing experience, Koree is adept at crafting and implementing growth strategies for new and existing clients. 

Learn More: 

This episode is brought to you by Lateral Hub:

Lateral Hub is the premier job board for top large, midsize, and boutique firms. Over 75 firms use their flat-fee membership to promote openings to laterals and judicial clerks as a transparent, targeted, affordable alternative to headhunters or LinkedIn. No hassle. No placement fees. Hiring in 2026? Don’t recruit like it’s the Stone Age.  

Stay Connected:

Love So Much To Say? Let us know! Drop a review, give us 5 stars in your favorite podcast app, and tell us what made you laugh, think, or just go “yep, that’s me.” Every review helps us reach more awesome humans who want to make legal…well, human. 
Bring these types of conversations to your law firm. These podcast conversations are the same ones happening quietly inside law firms. Through stage, we work with lawyers at every level and with legal marketing teams on client service, business development, and growth built on real relationships. If these themes are coming up inside your firm, let’s chat. 

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People where we explore the behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We’re your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we’re here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real challenges of balancing ambitious careers with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. Instead, So Much To Say is a human-centered leadership, marketing, and culture podcast through the lens of law. We bring you real stories, candid conversations, and thoughtful insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer, what makes you human matters too. So whether you’re navigating billable hours, building meaningful relationships, redefining success, or simply trying to stay human in a high-performance profession, this podcast is for you.
Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human).

[00:00:00] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Just because you have a title doesn't mean you have the skill. So I, I try not to get so worked up of did they have this title before, is what have you actually done? And I wanted to be able to have an opportunity to impact and, and drive particular things within a firm. What are you doing and, and how are you shaping things?
[00:00:20] But a lot of it's about building your team and building up people to come up the ranks with you. A CMO title gives you an opportunity to kick open the door for other people
[00:00:33] Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work, life, and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started. I'd love to know more about your story, 'cause I know you and I have talked a couple times, but I don't know your whole career path, Koree, so I'd love to, like, hear that.
[00:00:57] And so we always love having CMO perspective, right? And I know that you're, like, no-nonsense, and I love that. So I w- I w- you know, I'm really excited to hear about your no-nonsense approach.
[00:01:07] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: It's, uh, probably very similar to some people and, and I'm sure some people have, have, have heard my path. But I couldn't find a job after I graduated with my master's degree in December of '01.
[00:01:20] You guys all remember. Those of you who know New Yorkers, you definitely remember. And it was very hard to find a job, and so I would ta- I was doing temp work, and I got my first job as a marketing coordinator at an accounting firm. And, uh, my boss had been in accounting and also legal, and she told me if accounting, you know, didn't work out, my marketing career in accounting didn't work out, I should go to a law firm and I would do really well in a law firm.
[00:01:51] So fast-forward another accounting firm, and then I came out to Colorado from Milwaukee and started at Hogan & Hartson back in the day. And my first week on the job I called her and I said, "Why did you think I would be good at this? This is horrible."
[00:02:10] Megan Senese: W- Why was it so horrible? 'Cause the people sucked or, like, it was boring, or...?
[00:02:14] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Uh, truly it was my f- I think my first or second day on the job, and a partner called and said, "We have an opportunity to put, put a full-page ad in this magazine that my friend started." I said, "Great, okay." Here's what we want it to say, got the ad created, showed it to him, and he lost his mind because we put the managing partner as the contact and not him.
[00:02:42] Megan Senese: Sure.
[00:02:42] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Because it didn't have anything to do with his practice, but it was his friend's magazine. And so not only did he march down the hall, he also, um, went down to the managing partner and said, "I can't, I can't even believe we're letting this happen." And I was like, "What is this? It's an ad that we're highlighting white collar disputes, and you're an environmental lawyer, but yet you want to have your name on this."
[00:03:08] And we then had to change the ad and make it a general ad and put both our names on it. So- Welcome to law firm.
[00:03:20] Jennifer Ramsey: Yes. Welcome to the rest of your professional career.
[00:03:23] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: And you know what was interesting though, is coming from accounting-
[00:03:27] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah ...
[00:03:28] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: and I'm not saying all accounting firms are like this, but my last stint was at a Big Four, and I had to run it by two people.
[00:03:36] That's it. Whatever I did, I ran it by two people, and that was the decision. And if you ran into a partner in the kitchen and they had an opinion, it just didn't matter.
[00:03:45] Megan Senese: Right.
[00:03:45] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: But in law firms, every partner gets an opinion, and then you have to change it. And it's, it's more consensus building. So when I called her and said, "Why did you think this was a good idea?"
[00:03:55] She said, "You're, you're just doing it wrong," is you're a really good people person Go and get to know all of them. And the biggest thing about accounting firms is they're more of a pyramid where you've got decision-makers right at the top, and law firms are very different. Flip it over, you've got a whole line of decision-makers and, and people who get a way in.
[00:04:18] And so you'll market a lot of them first, then you might market them together, and then you may market the firm. Whereas accounting firms go to market by the firm name, then their particular, um, practice, and rarely would you ever market an accountant singly.
[00:04:32] Jennifer Ramsey: That is such an amazing explanation of the difference between accounting marketing and law firm, 'cause Megan and I are both from a- an accounting market, a Big Four too.
[00:04:45] And I've not heard it explained like that, and you are just dead on.
[00:04:51] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: So day three was better. Yes. Because-
[00:04:54] Jennifer Ramsey: Okay.
[00:04:55] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Yeah. And I'm not... You know, it, it just was one of those very eye-opening things where you just are not used to that. I mean, in your accounting world, do you ever remember a... There were not awards.
[00:05:07] You didn't update- Right ... bios every day. I could barely find a bio for the head of tax. His bio was three sentences long and there was no picture. Yeah. Didn't care. You know, it just wasn't a thing. And so just a very different way of marketing. Very similar, very different.
[00:05:23] Megan Senese: I used to say, 'cause when I, when I made the first jump from KPMG to McDermott, they were like, "Well..."
[00:05:28] Everyone was impressed that I was at KPMG when I joined McDermott. They thought that was impressive. And I don't think I really appreciated where I was at the time. And so they're like, "What's the difference?" I was like, "Well, uh, accountants care about numbers and the lawyers care about words." Like, that's like pretty much, like pretty much it.
[00:05:46] Jennifer Ramsey: Commas.
[00:05:47] Megan Senese: Yeah. Com- my gosh, commas. So I put in our prep, right, I wanted to ask, "How did you get here?" And someone had asked, and I have a funny story about this, so I'm gonna share it, and then we can k- keep going down your how did you get to CMO title path, et cetera. But I went on, my ver- one of my first interviews was not for a law firm, um, or an accounting firm.
[00:06:09] It was to sell advertising space for FX, and I was going to work for like the channel. And I had somehow like fi- finagled an interview. I was so excited about this. I meet with the person and they were like, "So how'd you get here?" And I was like, "Well, I took the Long Island Railroad."
[00:06:32] And she was like, "That's not what I'm asking you at all."
[00:06:36] Jennifer Ramsey: Oh, that is hysterical. I've never heard this story. I like that.
[00:06:39] Megan Senese: And, um, and I was like, "Oh, like, I don't know if you were, like, asking me if I was, like, a commuter, if I, like, lived in the city." She's like, "Yeah, I, I know why you answered it that way, but that's not what I'm asking you."
[00:06:49] And I was like, "I'm just trying to explain." It d- obviously I didn't get hired there, so like-
[00:06:53] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Well, Megan, I drove here by myself today. Down Sixth Avenue. So continuing down my path, I guess, um, so then I s- I stayed in law firms and I stayed at Hogan, and it had different changes over the years. They obviously had a, a large, um, merger, and that provided more opportunity.
[00:07:14] And then I worked for some, uh, really great, wonderful people, and they also opened doors and provided great opportunities, so I stayed and got really good experience and was able to try new things and, and build on what we do as professionals. And so then I ultimately decided that I was ready to leave, um, Hogan, and I tried to figure out what I wanted to do.
[00:07:36] So I looked at CMO jobs. I looked at being a consultant. I looked at going back to accounting, looked at various different industries and ultimately determined that I have some, um, passion for this and I really l- I really like working with the lawyers. I, I like building things and teams and I just thought, well, let me see if I can actually do the CMO role.
[00:08:01] Megan Senese: Did you, did you always... Like, was that your, like, goal when you first started? You know, maybe not on your day three of your legal marketing career.
[00:08:09] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Day three I was gonna go work definitely somewhere else.
[00:08:12] Megan Senese: I, I, and I think those stories are funny also 'cause, uh, I have a... I mean, I have a lot of stories, Koree, but I also was an intern at a law firm doing marketing, and I hated it, and I was like, "I'm never doing this," and yet here we are.
[00:08:24] After you got over, like, the hump of like, "I hate this and this is terrible," and you realized that it's much more of, like, a people connection and relationship driving, right? Some influencing. Was CMO on your, like, list? Like, "I'm gonna become a CMO," like, "That's my dream. That's my goal"?
[00:08:39] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Yeah. Was it necessarily the only goal?
[00:08:41] No. But was it definitely on the list of goals? Yes. And primarily, I mean, a lot of what I talk about is I'm not a big title person, is I do believe that I've seen a lot of people after hiring and interviewing and working with people, just because you have a title doesn't mean you have the skill. And I, so I, I try not to get so worked up of, did they have this title before, is what have you actually done?
[00:09:09] So the title though, of the CMO, was more about what do you get to do? And obviously it comes with the title. I wanted to be able to have, um, an opportunity to Impact and, and drive particular things within a firm, and to be able to work with the leadership at the highest levels to help, you know, think about how, you know, we go to market and how do we win work, and what makes us really good at what we do, and where do we fall short, and how do we fix that?
[00:09:40] And with that comes the title, obviously. So again, that you can do that from a lot of leadership levels. You don't have to be the CMO, and I had those opportunities at Hogan as well. I drove a lot of things. I created a lot of things that became global, and I didn't have a CMO title. I, you know, was a, was a, a director, and it was great.
[00:10:01] So that's why I say it's not always about the title, it's what are you doing and, and how are you shaping things? But I will tell you the title piece of like becoming a CMO was primarily because You wanna see if you can help build up not only a, a team that can drive the firm, but you also wanna know that can you help an organization achieve its goals?
[00:10:28] And to be able to do that is sometimes you have to be in a leadership position and a driving position. And so that to me was the part about the CMO role that I thought was pretty cool. But a lot of it's about building your team and building up people to come up the ranks with you is... A CMO title gives you an opportunity to kick open the door for other people that I don't think necessarily you can do at a manager level sometimes 'cause you just don't have enough influence.
[00:10:55] Jennifer Ramsey: So I have, like, a 2:00 AM burning question for you. This, this question came to me at 2:00 AM this morning. Because when I was in-house at Pillsbury, we, we have, we have a similar path. I was at Pillsbury for almost 20 years, and I moved up. I increasingly had more responsibility, moving from the local market to regional to practice, industry-wide, firm-wide, and at one point, I wanted to be a CMO, and so I went for CMO jobs.
[00:11:26] I, I would get the interview, and then because I had the director title, I always got stopped, and this is what I was told anyway, right? Um, maybe I did an interview well, I don't know. But the feedback would be, "Well, we want someone who's already been a CMO." And so I see you, Kari, you've m- you've made that jump.
[00:11:47] You went from being a director at Hogans into a CMO position. So how would you, for, for legal marketers out there who might be in the same position where they, they're like, "How do I make that jump to get to position myself as a CMO, to go past the first interview?" How did you do it, and, and how would you advise them?
[00:12:11] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Yeah. So a couple things that I think are interesting is, especially in this industry, and we've all seen it, is once you have the title, it seems to just be the same people cycling through the roles. And maybe they're the right fit for the firm, maybe they're not, but they have the title, and so people feel comfortable with that.
[00:12:28] So I, I don't know how you get rid of that stigma overall. But I think the biggest thing that got me over the hump is it was two things. It was relationships matter, and if people don't believe that in life, you're wrong. It's, it is all in who you know. And it's not even people who sit in a great seat, it's just people, do they know you?
[00:12:47] Would they vouch for you? So when this role opened up, I actually had known it because I knew the person who was previously in the role. Not only did I, I call her and say, "Hey, what do you think?" And she's like, "We're very different. You should definitely look at it." So number one, I had a, somebody who was a champion who I, who I'd had experience working with me.
[00:13:06] There you go. The other one was I knew two different people who knew two different people at this firm
[00:13:12] Megan Senese: And
[00:13:12] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: I, of course, sent, you know, information in, my resume in through them as well. And no offense to recruiters, I think great, I think it's very valuable, but sometimes it's, it's just looking on the list.
[00:13:24] If they didn't have the title, you may end up on the sideline. Whereas if somebody knows you and actually worked with you and, and can vouch for your experience, it gives an opportunity for people to look at you. So always think about your network. Never hold back about, you know, people who could actually say, "This person is the real deal.
[00:13:43] You should at least talk to them," number one. Now, once you finally get the interview, I, I at least feel like for me, because I've interviewed so many people in my career When you ask people and say, "Tell me what you've done," you know? And they'll say, "Well, I've, I've led this," or, "I've been a part of a client team," or, "I've, I've, uh, worked with various research to drive initiatives," et cetera.
[00:14:08] Okay, great. Tell me what part you owned, and people get really stuck on that. And they're like, "Well, you know, I was, I was just part of the initiative, and I was moving this part forward." Okay, great. At this level, you have to be a driver, and not everybody has that, and that's okay. I spend a lot of time on the DiSC assessment, and I love that because, yes, I am, I'm a DI, I'm a driver, but a lot of it is you have to also bring people along in order to get your ideas put through.
[00:14:34] In addition to that, I would have never been able to do most of the programs that I created and thought about if I didn't have somebody who was different on the DiSC. And those people who are SCs and CSs and, and process-oriented, my stuff would have never come to fruition because I didn't have them. But also, when you're, when you're interviewing, and, and back to the point of you're asking people questions and have you actually done that, and you need the different types of people to be successful.
[00:15:03] But what I meant by like in this role you've gotta be a driver is you're gonna be hit with challenges. You're gonna be hit with resistance. And have you, have you actually done things that create new opportunities, but also can you influence... Back to the influence word. It shouldn't be negative. Can you influence people to follow you?
[00:15:21] And I'll give you an example of when I was interviewing, lots of people talk about how they have client feedback programs. Great. Lots of people do it in many different ways. When I bring it up is, I started the client feedback program at my former firm, and I was... I, I bring this up. I was a 26-year-old manager, and I had seen it done at the, at the Big Four of the impact it, it has on when you hear direct feedback from clients.
[00:15:47] So when I started there, I was like, "I think we actually need to hear from our clients." And as you can imagine, I have all these lawyers looking at me like, "Yeah, okay, great. You're, you are gonna go out and interview my client?" And I was like, "Yeah. That's the best way to do it because I work here. I care a lot about how the firm performs, and here's how that would happen is I'm not there to sell."
[00:16:08] And I would explain to them, "Here's what I'm there to do." And it took me probably a solid six months, of course, to build good relationships, and finally, I had a good group of partners who said, "Yeah, I think that's a great idea. You should definitely go do that," because I'd built rapport with them, and I'd built the trust with them.
[00:16:23] And so I partnered with somebody on my team, and she helped me think through the questions, and she promised to take care of all the data stuff. Not my jam. So- I went out and I interviewed 10 of our clients, and I shared that information with the partners. They loved it. We shared it in partner meetings, and then it just again went, you know, kind of snowballed from there.
[00:16:46] But when I'm explaining that in a CMO interview, it's, I wasn't just part of something, like I saw something, I knew we needed to have it, I had to create the opportunity, but I had to build the relationships with the people who have those relationships with clients. That is going to get you a seat at the table.
[00:17:02] And when I said I didn't just, you know, partake, I, I did it. And so I had multiple examples like that over the years of here was something, lateral integration. Here was lateral integration at my former firm, and it was BD was not involved. How is BD not involved in lateral integration, right? Because the second the lateral doesn't do well, they go, "Well, it was because I didn't get any help from BD."
[00:17:24] Jennifer Ramsey: Right.
[00:17:24] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Well, we're gonna make sure that that's not a problem anymore. So we w- you know, had an opportunity and created a integration program working alongside our recruiting team and creating a business development pipeline of opportunities for laterals, and the whole point was coaching, et cetera. Again, became a global program because it, it would work, and it, it was helpful.
[00:17:48] And the point was though is You have to be constantly thinking about the business and what's gonna help the business, what's gonna drive the business. Does it mean you have to create something new every day? No, but you do have to get partners to agree to do the things. Most of the things that I think of in, in my career that I've brought into a firm or created in a firm, it's not rocket science.
[00:18:09] I mean, give me a break. Everybody's doing this stuff. It's could you get it off the ground at that time? And did you have the, uh, you know, the gravitas, but also the real experience to make people feel comfortable that you could get this done? So that's why I say that's the part about coming into these roles is you have to be willing to, one, put your neck out there.
[00:18:31] Not everything's gonna be successful. Number two, you have to be pretty confident in what you're doing, and not in a arrogant way, but a confident way of saying, "Let's try this, and if it doesn't work, that's okay. We won't do it again. But in order to move the firm forward, we have to be able to try these things."
[00:18:48] But the other piece is you have to be able to convince and s- and be honest about what your real experience is and what roles did you have in those different programs or just different strategy that you were trying to push forward. So I'm not saying that's why I got this role, but overall, it's... I had at least great examples of where I had to step into a leadership influencer role.
[00:19:13] Jennifer Ramsey: Yes. And I love what you say when you say relationships matter, too. I mean, it's the same thing that we, that we've-- we coach our, our lawyers on. I mean, that's the number one thing, that it's, it's all comes down to relationships that the individual lawyers have. And, and, you know, just like we have to build them and build the trust and the rapport as they are our clients, they have to do the same thing with their clients.
[00:19:36] And so it's just this like, that's why we're so good at what we do because we know h- we have to do it and so then in turn we have to like embolden them and empower them and cheer them on like, "Yes! Go out and do this in the world."
[00:19:48] Megan Senese: I mean, I remember when we were thinking about launching the business, and I was telling my husband, like, "Ah, you know, I don't know, I'm a little nervous.
[00:19:55] I don't know. I don't really have that much sales experience." He was like, "Are you kidding me? You're literally selling to the partners every single day, talking to people, changing your tactics, changing it so that it's based on the audience, right? H- knowing what method of communication's going to work for the senior partner versus the junior partner so you can get the consensus, so then, then do- and then doing what you said you were going to do."
[00:20:17] He's like, "That's sales." And so I was like, oh. And that's what we're talking about when we're saying, you know, it's all about relationships. It doesn't mean that you're gonna be best friends with the top rainmaker. It just means that there's maybe a level of respect or there's a one-way one-way, uh, street of respect where you know where you stand with that person, and you have to fall in line, and that's, and that's okay.
[00:20:39] That's how sometimes people need things to, to, you know, to get, to get moving. Actually, I mean, Jen, I, I love to think about you and I used to work with someone who was pretty difficult for the two of, two of us, and he was a head of the, an industry group, and he was really challenging for quite a bit. And then we sort of, like, flipped with...
[00:21:00] He flipped over, and he was, like, our biggest fan, and everything we did was great. And because we just kept showing up over and over again and saying, like-
[00:21:09] Jennifer Ramsey: Tenacious ...
[00:21:09] Megan Senese: we were like, "You want this done? We're gonna get it done," right? And we would, and we would just kept lining up and doing all the things that we said we were going to do, and we showed him consistently time and time and time, and, like, literally thousands of times of, that we can be counted on.
[00:21:23] Um, and that become, that became our favorite person. He, it went from being, like, our least favorite person to our favorite person right, right when we left.
[00:21:30] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
[00:21:31] Megan Senese: There's a couple questions I wanted to ask you, 'cause I've heard this a lot about that the CMO job is pretty lonely at the top. Lonely up at the top.
[00:21:39] Does that, does that ring true for you? How does that feel? How does that how does that quest- You're like, "No. Fuck that. I'm not lonely."
[00:21:46] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: I was gonna say, yeah, I'm not lonely. I'm not lonely at the top. A, a lot of it has to do with just because you're, you have the CMO title, again, you don't know everything.
[00:21:55] And if you think you know everything, I'm sure it is really lonely at the top because you're trying to protect, for some reason, you know, and, and keep people out or whatever it might be, is it shouldn't be that lonely. You should be bouncing ideas off of other people. I work with our CFO all the time, and I'm constantly asking, like, "What do you think about this?"
[00:22:13] And when she's asking and, you know, you're, you're just working with people throughout different challenges. And, like, our CIO who, you know, he, I go to him with all sorts of questions just about mentoring and life, and he, you know, he's, he's been exposed to different, different firms and different leadership.
[00:22:31] And, and so why aren't you asking these people? And if you are trying to start something new is, what have been the challenges in the firm, and, you know, where do you get hung up, or who are the people you should be consulting with? But more importantly, it's also with your team. Who speaks your language?
[00:22:45] Your team does. And why, why aren't you asking your coordinators for new ideas? And why aren't you asking your managers for what they're seeing? And it, it shouldn't be lonely. It should be collaborative. And so that's just my approach. I, I don't sit and think about a lot of stuff by myself. It's not who I am.
[00:23:04] I like to be around people, and I like to work in teams, and I just like to be very thoughtful about who brings what to the table. And so to me, it's not lonely. I just, I mean, I like to be around people. That's probably a lot of why I will never be a solo consultant because I would be very sad by myself, sitting alone at my desk and just working solo.
[00:23:25] I just don't think that's where I thrive.
[00:23:27] Megan Senese: Hmm. Oh, I love that. And I love, I love flipping that question on its head. Anytime that we can be the opposite of what is traditionally said, I love to bring that idea to market. What are you hoping that after, like, legal marketers or lawyers listen to this episode, like, what are you hoping that they can, like, walk away with?
[00:23:45] Either a different thinking, a different phrase. Like, what are you hoping they walk away from after today's episode?
[00:23:50] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: What I wish that people would walk away with is trust us in what we do, you know, especially to lawyers, is everybody, you know, says that they, they know marketing, they know business development, et cetera.
[00:24:01] Of course, everyone knows pieces of it, but this is what we do, and, and we are experts in our field, is just trust us to try things. And it's okay if it doesn't succeed. Just don't do it again. But try something new. Try a different approach. And just because it's maybe been tried before, maybe it was with the wrong group.
[00:24:24] Maybe it was with, you know, you just had the wrong type of buy-in. Maybe it was the wrong timing in the firm. Like, the culture just wasn't quite there yet. So don't be afraid to, you know- Just put it back out there. Maybe it's the right time. And I, I say that from experience of when I came into Foley, many of the things I was bringing here, again, you guys would laugh because it's exactly what every firm talks about or should be doing, and it's nothing that's...
[00:24:55] It, it's not revolutionary. But I actually reached out to somebody who was here prior, 'cause I found some of their files, and I said, "Just out of curiosity, all this stuff existed. What happened?" And they said, "It was just the wrong time. Wrong time in the firm." So, just be open to the ideas, and don't assume that just because it was done one way or you, you think you know or you had an experience with it, it didn't, it couldn't work.
[00:25:20] That's the most important thing, I think, for lawyers and also for your own teams. The other thing I, I hope that most marketers get out of these conversations are, don't just do what, you know, is right in front of you. If you wanna really excel in your career, it does mean you're gonna have to work the extra.
[00:25:37] If you wanna try a new program or you wanna develop something different Sometimes that's your nights and your weekends. But if you truly actually wanna break out of the mold, yeah, you got the day-to-day job on your plate, but you do need to do those extra things in order to be able to progress in your career how you think you wanna progress in your career.
[00:25:57] Not all managers are there to set you up for success because they're also very worried about their, their career, what are they getting. You hope that they are looking at you and thinking about you a lot, but they're not always doing that. And it's, we all get in our own zones. I hope marketers know that in order to get what you want to out of your career, sometimes you gotta reach outside to a, a different manager, a peer, somebody outside the firm.
[00:26:22] Learn something new, do something different to actually grow in your own profession and what you wanna do for your own path, career path.
[00:26:30] Megan Senese: Yeah.
[00:26:31] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Yeah. I think, I think that's really, really important. But is relation- I mean, back to the relationship piece, I think that's what's key. I mean, I didn't know Megan, and we got to chatting and was like, "Oh my gosh, we have a lot in common."
[00:26:44] We just en- just enjoyed kind of our career paths and different things and, and now I have somebody else who I now bounce ideas off of and think through different approaches. That to me is huge, and if you're not doing that all throughout your career, then you probably are lonely. That's probably true.
[00:27:01] You probably are lonely.
[00:27:03] Megan Senese: Yep. I think there's definitely this perception that the CMO has to like live up here, right? H- up high and, and not bother their team or, or that's how people have interpreted that. And so it's been interesting. I've heard that, uh, phrase used a lot. Like, "It's pretty lonely here," and, "Can't really ask my team," and da da da da.
[00:27:22] And so anytime I get somebody in front of me where I'm like, "I'm gonna ask them." Like, I'm gonna ask them specifically. So I love to hear that perspective. And, and that might be the case. There might be some CMOs who are just like, "No, I'm not asking my team," right? And then, yeah, you're gonna feel, you're gonna feel lonely.
[00:27:37] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: And think about that, Megan, from a perspective of just because you maybe don't wanna be a CMO doesn't mean you're not talented and have ideas.
[00:27:44] Megan Senese: Mm.
[00:27:44] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: You don't have to be a CMO to be c- a contributor. I mean, I've worked with people for years. I worked with, I work with somebody now who I've worked with for 20 years.
[00:27:54] Being a CMO has never been on her, her high priority list, but I will tell you right now, she has seen and done a ton of things that many people haven't, and has great ideas. Why wouldn't I leverage her, you know? And, and not everybody would be a CMO. Jen, let me guess. You probably have seen things, had experience in a ton of different ways that would be additive to any CMO conversation.
[00:28:21] Jennifer Ramsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:22] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Again, back to the get over the title, it's where does the great thinking come from? And it comes from- Yeah ... everyone who has different skills. I just can't say that enough. I just don't think you get great ideas from just sitting by yourself and thinking of only people at this top level, because quite frankly, that's not where the energy is, even.
[00:28:42] Megan Senese: Well, I mean, we, we've learned so much in the last, you know, three and a half years of, of how to be a better business developer because we have to be, like I like to u- use the phrase, out in the streets. Like, we have to be, we're literally pounding the pavement, getting business in the door, and I would have never learned that in-house.
[00:28:58] And so that makes me a better business developer. I don't know if that's a CMO level, but you know, that, it's an interesting ... It just brings different experiences, and you can call your- Like I think we could have, we could have called ourselves whatever we wanted. Like, we could have called ourselves CMOs when we launched our business.
[00:29:15] But I think just having that reframe and the re- thinking in that way. It's also just very you, right? It's just very you, Curry, too. Like, hopefully we have multiple CMOs who feel like that.
[00:29:27] Jennifer Ramsey: Well, I think that's what makes the best CMOs, is, like, the, th- that your humility and, and, and the fact, just what you're saying.
[00:29:36] And we had someone at Pillsbury, Megan, you didn't know her very well, but she was, her name was Lynn, and, um, she was, for all intents and purposes, she didn't have the title of CMO, but she was the head of our, our BD team. And, and she would always say, "You can call me the janitor. I don't care what you call me."
[00:29:54] She's like, she just cared about her team, and she always had our back, and it's such a, sometimes it can be such a rare thing in, just in, in life, not even in a law firm, but just having that person, and she always had our back, and she's literally, she will always have been one of the best bos- bosses and, um, the best mentors and, like, she's, she served so many super important roles t- for me and the team that weren't labeled CMO.
[00:30:26] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Yeah.
[00:30:26] Jennifer Ramsey: And I feel that from you even though we just met.
[00:30:29] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: Well, Jen, now we know each other. I
[00:30:31] Jennifer Ramsey: know, right? Now we're in a circle. Yeah, now we're BFFs.
[00:30:34] Koree Khongphand-Buckman: But I, I think that. I mean, think of even the people who I had who were champions of mine, you know, as I came up in my career, and they're all over the place. They were, they were office managers.
[00:30:47] Um, they were the receptionist. They were the OMP. They were people who were just like, "Hey, I see what you're doing. That's really awesome. Tell me more." And it's knowing that you have people in your court, I think also is one of the things that makes you a better leader, is people are looking to you in general to say, you know, "What do you have to offer?
[00:31:05] And I get marketing. I understand what that is. Tell me more about your, your group and your team and your programs." And we have generally a population of people in a law firm who care what we're doing, and you're not, you generally are not alone. Because one, they want you to be successful because then the firm's successful, and two, it's probably the, quote-unquote, coolest thing in the law firm, right?
[00:31:28] Is the marketing and business development. I mean, obviously.
[00:31:31] Megan Senese: Yes.
[00:31:34] This episode is brought to you by Lateral Hub. Lateral Hub is the premier job board for top, large, midsize, and boutique law firms. Over 75 firms use their flat-fee membership to promote job openings for laterals and judicial clerks as a transparent, targeted, affordable alternative to headhunters or LinkedIn. No hassle, no placement fees. If you are hiring in 2026, don't recruit like it's the Stone Age. Lateral hiring, welcome to modern times.