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The Hot Dish podcast features the stories of everyday people making a difference in rural and small-town communities, interviews with elected leaders, policymakers, and academics who are creating new opportunities for rural Americans, and finding practical solutions to the challenges they face. Punctuated with entertaining conversations and a healthy dose of sibling rivalry, One Country Project's Hot Dish is informative, enlightening, and downright fun.
Heidi Heitkamp (00:04):
Welcome to The Hot Dish, comfort food for rural America. I'm Heidi Heitkamp.
Joel Heitkamp (00:08):
I'm Joel Heitkamp.
Heidi Heitkamp (00:09):
Who's Joel Heitkamp?
Joel Heitkamp (00:13):
Okay, I'll say it differently. I'm the Joel Heitkamp.
Heidi Heitkamp (00:18):
The Joel. Kind of like the Ohio State, right?
Joel Heitkamp (00:19):
Right, exactly.
Heidi Heitkamp (00:22):
Ohio State tried to trademark the word the, and the trademark office said, "Get out of here." So don't be getting any ideas about trademarking the Joel Heitkamp.
Joel Heitkamp (00:31):
You think I didn't already know that.
Heidi Heitkamp (00:32):
Although I knew you are the one and only.
Joel Heitkamp (00:33):
You think I didn't already know that? I knew that.
Heidi Heitkamp (00:37):
You know what? I'm really excited about this episode, because a guy that I admired for a long, long time agreed to do an interview, Steve Case. He founded AOL. You might think, "Okay, that guy, he spun it off." I think they sold it to Warner and he's just like, "Okay, I'm out of here. I'm going to take my money and buy an island and go live well." No, what he said is, "There's problems in this country, one of which is there isn't enough venture capital coming to places across the country. There isn't enough entrepreneurship. I am going to invest my time, my energy, and my resources and building out opportunities in places like Cincinnati, Sioux Falls, Omaha. It shouldn't all go to Boston. It shouldn't all go to Silicon Valley. It shouldn't all go to New York City."
Joel Heitkamp (01:28):
See, and I think that that's one of the beauties of One Country. I think more and more people are starting to understand that there's a middle of this country too, and there's a lot of good people here, people that might not agree on everything but are willing to talk to each other. I think that's the great thing about being on this podcast with you, Heidi. Now that's about as nice as I can get.
Heidi Heitkamp (01:50):
Thanks, Joel. I'll be nicer. Oh, should I say the Joel? I'm going to just call you the Joel.
Joel Heitkamp (01:57):
That's good. I'm starting to dig that. I'll get shirts made.
Heidi Heitkamp (01:58):
Because nothing in America happens unless you have a T-shirt declaring it.
Joel Heitkamp (02:02):
Or a coffee mug. Yeah.
Heidi Heitkamp (02:09):
Before the fun begins, there's a truly amazing young woman running for Congress in Central Wisconsin. She's been in the state assembly for 12 years, and boy has she seen and done a lot. Her name is Katrina Shankland, and I think you're going to be really impressed.
Katrina Shankland (02:26):
I grew up in a small rural town in Central Wisconsin called Wittenberg. It's a town of about 1,000, still a town of about 1,000. It was the kind of place where about once a month, my parents would load us all up in the van and we would take a 30-minute drive to the largest city in Central Wisconsin to get all of our bulk goods and clothes and whatever else was needed, household items. So, knowing what it's like to grow up in rural Wisconsin and then now to represent rural Wisconsin has been really special and important to me. I love Wisconsin. I've always lived in Wisconsin. Both my parents were public school teachers. So, what I've learned about public school teachers is they're basically always on. They're always teaching you an important lesson.
(03:09):
My favorite lesson that my parents taught me at a very young age was when you see something wrong, instead of just complaining, you should really do something about it. So, that's really, to me, what my call to service was at a young age is finding a way to fix problems and offering solutions instead of just complaining. So, I ran for office in 2012, because I saw a lot of things that needed to be fixed. I was very disturbed to see the attacks on public education in Wisconsin. Then Governor Scott Walker came into office. Back then, the politics were called divide and conquer politics. We had one of the most gerrymandered electoral maps in the country.
(03:47):
Wisconsin Democrats had lost in 2010, not only the US Senate, but the governor and both levers of power in the Senate and assembly. So, we had the greatest losses more than any other state. So, what we saw in 2011 was a pretty radical shift away from what I think is stewarding the public good, really caring about other folks. Watching that up close, I was working at a renewable energy nonprofit in Central Wisconsin at the time. I was very concerned about not only the attacks on public education and the cuts to public education, but also the attacks on our reproductive rights, on killing the high-speed rail dollars that was hundreds of millions of dollars we could have used wisely, as well as even solar incentives.
(04:35):
So, from my job at a small renewable energy nonprofit in rural central Wisconsin, I saw what can happen when a pretty strong policy shift happens in one go. We had one of the most gerrymandered electoral maps in the country in 2011 to 2024. Looking forward, I sure hope we get fewer maps soon and it sure looks like that will be the case, but I have personally lived under what I would say has been divide and conquer politics and I wanted to fix that. I first ran for office in 2012. So, I'm in my 6th term and my 12th year of service in the Wisconsin State Assembly. I currently serve as the only Democratic legislator in all of Central Wisconsin and Northern Wisconsin.
(05:17):
So, I have worked really hard to build coalitions, build bridges, and get things done. In my time in the legislature, I have passed 179 bills into law and counting under both Democratic and Republican governors all while serving in the minority. So, I know what it takes when you have a good idea, you've got to get support from people of all political ideologies and you need to build not only bridges, but long-term coalitions to get those bills signed into law.
(05:45):
I'm really proud to say that the bills I've gotten past have been really meaningful for the people of Wisconsin, whether it's establishing our state's first ever community paramedic law, so that we can deliver affordable preventative care to rural Wisconsin, or whether it's delivering three new programs for farmers to help them with conservation and put more money in their pockets. I would say my focus in the legislature has been twofold. One is on investing in public education at all levels, and the other has been the intersection between environment and agriculture. So, here in Wisconsin, we're very proud of our family farmers.
(06:19):
We're really proud of our agricultural heritage, and we also care a lot about our public lands and access to clean air, clean water, and bountiful wildlife. I would say that that has been my greatest focus in the legislature. I've passed a number of bills into law specifically to help people struggling with nitrate contamination, because here in Central Wisconsin, in Portage County, one in four folks with private wells can't drink water from their taps. So, my goal has always been to move the needle on that, get people immediate access to clean drinking water while also focusing on long-term prevention that comes at the benefit of family farmers.
(07:01):
We need people who understand the problems that people are facing every day, what keeps them up at night, and who aren't just listening to those problems but have ideas for how to fix them and who are willing to put in the work across the aisle, which is important, because the margins in the house right now are slim. So, I am willing to work with anyone who wants to support common-sense results-driven solutions to problems facing the people of Wisconsin and across the country. I'm Katrina Shankland and I'm running for Wisconsin's third congressional district covering Central and Western Wisconsin, including Eau Claire, Stevens Point, and La Crosse.
Heidi Heitkamp (07:43):
I have a special guest, someone I have wanted on this program for a long, long time. It's Steve Case, former CEO, I think, of AOL and now has taken on a real challenge in the country. Steve has initiated something that is very altruistic in my opinion. It's called Revolution, a venture capital firm that houses Rise of the Rest Seed Fund. That is something that really looks at how do we build the whole of the American economy. So, I want to thank you so much for coming on. Welcome to The Hot Dish, Steve.
Steve Case (08:23):
Well, great to be with you, Heidi. Thanks for all you've done over the many years for North Dakota and the country, and it's great to be on this talk about what we're doing at Revolution and particularly Rise of the Rest. Communities now all around the country recognize more than they did maybe 10 years ago that if they're going to have a bright future, they have to lean into the future and be part of the future. That includes being part of what's known as the innovation economy. They can't just rest on the laurels of the big companies in their cities that were created 50 or 100 years ago. They have to figure out what some of the new companies will be. That requires creating a mindset around risk-taking and disruption, which for some is challenging, but it's really important.
(09:04):
It requires figuring out ways to get some of these ideas, these startups funded, including launching local or regional funds. It includes talent, making sure some of the smart people growing up there, going to school there, stay there and don't leave for greater pastures. The people who did leave maybe 10 or 20 years ago, at least some of them boomerang back to return, so that more companies can be launched. So, it's a mix of culture and community and capital and talent, but it all starts with recognizing it's critical for each of these communities to continue to lead in the future and it's critical overall for our country to make sure we really are doing everything we can to remain the most innovative entrepreneurial nation in the world and do it in a more inclusive way so more people and more places are along for the ride.
Heidi Heitkamp (09:51):
Well, we talk a lot about regional divisions and the haves and have nots. I think when people see the numbers on the kind of investment, venture capital investment going 90% to California, Washington, Boston, maybe to some degree DC, they go, "There they go again. They aren't interested in the rest of the country." I know that you are looking at trying to encourage investment across the board.
Steve Case (10:21):
Yeah, no, I lived this, because when I started the company, I co-founded America Online, AOL nearly four decades ago. We were in Virginia and there was not a startup ecosystem in Virginia. There was no venture capital in Virginia, and it was hard to get people working at large companies to join our little startup company. So, I lived it and then it was hard to get going and hard to really get scale. So, I think that gives me some empathy for the entrepreneurs in Bismarck or Fargo or Columbus or Indianapolis or Pittsburgh or many other parts around the country that they think it's hard to be an entrepreneur there. They often then do leave to go to some other place, usually one of the coasts, and that's where we're trying to change.
(11:05):
We're trying to change that dynamic, so people can start companies wherever they are and create jobs in communities all across the country and deal with the issue that a lot of people in North Dakota that do feel left out. They do feel left behind. They think a lot of this digital technology, all the things around the internet, social media, crypto, autonomous vehicles, AI, you name it, that's not helping them in their communities. It's actually hurting them. In many cases, it's destroying jobs in those communities, not creating jobs. Some of that's always going to happen. There's always going to be a transition. I remember 100 years ago that 90% or so of us worked in farms.
(11:44):
Now, it's 2%, because we've shifted from that agriculture revolution to the industrial revolution. Obviously, still people are working in farm, but far fewer. But we created new industry, new jobs, and we need to create new industries, new jobs all across the country.
Heidi Heitkamp (11:59):
Well, and farms right now are more productive than ever with less labor. I mean, autonomy and technology has come to American agriculture. That's not going to roll back either.
Steve Case (12:13):
It's a positive, as you said. The technology, people sometimes view it as the things where jobs are displaced and that is a concern, but exactly what you said, we grow more food in this country with far fewer people. So, more food for more people to feed our country and feed the world is important and doing it as efficiently as possible is also important, particularly given global competition. That's the march of technology, that's the march of progress. We just need to make sure the benefits of that are more evenly distributed. It's not just the few places like Silicon Valley getting all the benefits, all the jobs, all the economic growth. It's placed all across the country, and that's what we're trying to do with Rise of the Rest.
Heidi Heitkamp (12:53):
So how many times have we heard the exact same conversation you and I are having and people go, "Yup"? We all nod our head. We need to do that. How do we do it? Walk us through some of the projects that you've done that you think have real impact in places that are not generally recognized as technology hubs.
Steve Case (13:15):
I'll give you a few examples, but first, a little bit of a back story. I actually got into this now 14, 15 years ago when I was asked to co-chair the National Advisory Council on Innovation and Entrepreneurship, which was part of the Commerce Department. We made a series of recommendations and one of them was the White House get involved in celebrating entrepreneurship, and then President Obama did that. They launched the first ever Startup Day at the White House. All these entrepreneurs we brought in pitched to the President, and he also launched something called Startup America to try to focus more on regional entrepreneurship.
(13:46):
He asked me to chair that, and then I worked with him on the Jobs Council and worked on the Jobs Act that you obviously played a role as well past 10, 11 years ago to make it easier for entrepreneurs to access capital. So, that was the backstory. It actually started with policy, which really opened my eyes to this dynamic where most of the jobs are created by new companies under five years old. Most of those new companies in order to really scale need to access capital yet venture capital is really going to just a few places like Silicon Valley, New York, and Boston, not every place. Then about 10 years ago, we launched Rise of the Rest as an initiative. We traveled around the country by bus.
(14:22):
We did all we could to celebrate these communities, do pitch competitions in these different places. About six years ago, we launched the Rise of the Rest Seed Fund. So far, we've invested over 200 companies in 100 different cities in partnership with nearly 400 regional venture capitalists. We've really built quite a network. A few of the examples, again, when there's 200 to pick from, I'd usually duck the question because they'll look like asking a parent who your favorite child is or a grandparent who your favorite grandchild is. Of course, you love them all. But some interesting example, we backed the company in Atlanta called Hermeus, that's building a Mach 5 technology. Air Force is now a customer.
(15:03):
You can get from Atlanta to Europe in 90 minutes, and it's obviously also helpful to the Air Force in moving things. That spun out of Virginia Tech, which was located in Atlanta. Maybe 10 years ago, those Virginia Tech graduates would've gone to Silicon Valley and now they decided to stay in Atlanta and build that company in Atlanta. We also backed the company in Chattanooga called FreightWaves. I didn't know this until we were there with our bus, but Chattanooga is where some of the biggest trucking companies in America are headquartered. So, building a company focused on trucking and logistics, which is what they do with data and media, almost like a Bloomberg for trucking and logistics. Doing that in Chattanooga, it made a lot of sense.
(15:45):
In Northwest Arkansas and Fayetteville, we backed a company that's focused on creating a platform to allow people to invest in farmland. So, if you want to diversify and invest in farmland, you can do that. The founder of that actually was in San Francisco working for a hedge fund in San Francisco. He came up of the idea for this company and then decided to move home to Arkansas, to Fayetteville to actually launch it. So, those are just a few of the examples. You're seeing great entrepreneurs with great ideas, the process of building great companies.
(16:16):
Instead of before feeling like they had to be in a place like San Francisco, now they think feel like they can be in Fayetteville or in Atlanta or in Chattanooga or in Fargo or many other places you can think about. That really, I think, bodes well for those communities and bodes well for the next chapter for our country.
Heidi Heitkamp (16:34):
A lot of what you're talking about is individual, right? That the individual has a good idea, they see that opportunity maybe where they grew up, they see that opportunity where they want to live. So, it's driven that way. I mean, I'm thinking about all the companies that I know that have been innovative and creative. People come in. They get gobbled up and then they get moved. That happens and that's heartbreaking, because what I see in several circumstances is these great ideas, once they're trying to get to scale, to get to be that next big thing, it's really hard to take it without additional investment.
(17:17):
Big guys come in. They say that's fine and good, but we think economies of scale work better if you move this thing to Boston. So, if you were going to talk to communities and community leaders and say, "What kind of ecosystem do we need to create within our communities to basically get more sustained investment?"
Steve Case (17:40):
Yeah, that is definitely the story. Most of the acquisitions in the tech world 10, 20, 30 years ago, they acquired the company, often then force them to move to a particular location to consolidate their people in a certain headquarters. So, as a result, those communities were deprived of the job growth that then came from them. That started to change about a decade ago. Some of the big companies, Microsoft, for example, was a classic case of they said, "If we acquire, we need to move you." They did acquire Great Plains and Fargo and decided to keep it there and build a broader presence there. So, that was a positive.
(18:17):
You've seen more examples of that where the big companies realize if you just move everybody, you lose some of the magic, you lose some of the people, you lose some of the culture. The other thing that's happened is you're seeing more of these companies get to scale and then what's almost a flywheel effect that their success leads to other companies. In Indianapolis for example, a company called Exact Target. It was acquired by Salesforce five, six years ago. At the time, they had 1,000 employees of Exact Target. Salesforce had 2,000 employees in Indianapolis. So, they doubled the size. It's actually the second largest Salesforce office outside of San Francisco itself.
(18:53):
It's Indianapolis, but more importantly, several dozen other companies focused on enterprise software started now in Indianapolis, including some funded by the founder of Exact Target, some of the people that were early employees of Exact Target. So, momentum begets momentum and that dynamic is happening. The final point I'd make is the pandemic has been an accelerator that there are obviously many tragic aspects to the pandemic, but one positive you're looking for a silver lining is it did lead some people to move back home or to move to places they were thought of living but didn't think they could live. Now we're living in more of a hybrid world. There's more flexibility around where you work and how you work and remote tools and so forth.
(19:31):
That's creating an opportunity for cities to get some of those people back and keep some of the people who are growing up there. So, my message to the mayors, the governors, the people, community leaders, CEOs in those communities, this is a moment and you should seize it. Many cities are now focusing on this. Economic development is not about getting big companies to move anymore. It's getting new companies to start and scale. The cities that do this well, the communities do this well are going to be the winners 10, 20, 30 years from now. Related to that, it's important for people to know that there's a churning of companies. About half of the Fortune 500 turns over every 25 years.
(20:11):
So, if you have a few big companies in your community, good for you, but don't get cocky and complacent. Don't presume they'll be there forever because half of them won't be there. You better be launching some new companies to make up for some of the companies that inevitably you'll lose. So, it's an exciting time. It's an important moment, and it's great to see things happening all across the country. It's frankly also great to see your former colleagues in Congress passing things like the CHIPS and Science Act, which included funding for tech hubs. I think that could be a real game changer. Place-based economic strategy I think is increasingly important if we're going to not just win versus China and other countries, but do it in a more inclusive way.
Heidi Heitkamp (20:50):
You think about how the kind of collective thinking, if you get at the right group of people who challenge each other, who work off each other, that kind of dynamic, entrepreneurial kind of dynamic is absolutely critical for this formula to work. So, you need critical mass. I want to ask, maybe this is an unfair question to ask you, but if they feel like the dynamic in a community is not welcoming of their friends, not welcoming of their brothers or sisters, people that they know, it's awfully hard to get them move home. So, when you pass laws that discriminate against a group of people because of who they love, when you pass laws that are discriminatory in people's minds, it's awfully hard to... My concern more is, will you be able to attract the talent?
Steve Case (21:48):
Yeah, no, I think different people assess things in different ways, but certainly the policies that are put in place in different states are a factor as well. They might attract certain people. They might alienate and turn off other people. People, when they're making these rules, these laws should understand some of those unintended consequences. The way I look at it is from a United States standpoint, we've got to win what is now a global battle for talent. We need to continue to attract the best and brightest for all over the world to want to come here and start companies here, because they're job creators, not job takers. They're critical. We also need to make sure we're winning the battle in each city.
(22:24):
Every community is doing what they can to be attractive to people who are builders, who are dreamers, who are visionaries, who want to build some of these companies, because that's critical. If you're going to really create the jobs and hope and opportunity to these communities that then attract other people, you get this momentum begets momentum flywheel effect. So, it's certainly possible. Many communities are really focused on it, which is more than when we got started 10 years ago.
(22:50):
So, I'm encouraged by some of the progress, but people need to recognize what are the things that move them forward, that help attract talent, help attract capital, help create a culture around startups and creativity, and what are the things that might end up being turnoffs that alienate people? You need to be careful as you think about these things to make sure you also focus on the long-term impacts, including the economic impacts in terms of what's happening with things like jobs.
Heidi Heitkamp (23:19):
You've been at this over a decade and you obviously have a passion for it. I want you to think maybe 20 years into the future, what do you hope this country looks like 20 years from now?
Steve Case (23:33):
My hope 20 years from now is America continues to be an elite. I don't take for granted that we're an elite now or we have the leading economy in the world. We're the most innovative entrepreneurial nation in the world, but we can lose that. So, making sure we take steps to maintain that lead is important. So, 20 years from now, I hope we are continued to lead in new technology, AI, robotics. Not China taking the lead. It's America continuing to lead. That's number one. Number two, we need to make sure we are doing it in a more inclusive way. I mentioned this earlier that the people that feel left out, the places that have been left out by the digital revolution in the last 20, 30, 40 years need to be part of it.
(24:11):
So, having more of these companies start and scale in North Dakota and Ohio and Michigan and Wisconsin and Colorado and Tennessee and you go down the list. So, it's not just a few states. Right now, 75% of venture capital is going to just three states, California, New York, and Massachusetts. So, 20 years from now, it's much more dispersed. There's more capital and available to entrepreneurs in every city, in every state. As a result, more companies are starting, more companies are scaling, more innovation is happening, more economic growth is happening.
(24:41):
There's more economic vitality which can make sure we lead, but also maybe in at least a small way help bridge this big divide we have in this country of people who feel part of what's happening and people who feel left out. If more people have an opportunity to be part of the future, help build the future, I think that can also help bridge this real divide.
Heidi Heitkamp (25:03):
I just want to thank you, because you have been an innovator just looking at, "Well, how do you create a fund that represents those values and that ethic of growing the entire country?" I don't think anyone does it better than you. So, if some of our listeners would like to learn more about the work that you do or maybe even kind of engage with you, how would they do that?
Steve Case (25:27):
We have a number of websites. Revolution.com is our core site. We also have a Rise of the Rest site. I'm on Twitter, I guess now X, and other social media platforms. We like allies. We recognize revolutions happen in evolutionary way, number one. Number two, you have to build a tapestry of alliances to have success. So, we love partnering with people. We love taking this idea to more people and we're trying to level the playing field in terms of opportunity, innovation, job creation, economic growth. Just like with the early days of the internet, we were successful because we built networks. We're trying to build networks with Rise of the Rest as well.
Heidi Heitkamp (26:06):
Well, the country is very fortunate to have you, Steve.
Steve Case (26:09):
Well, thank you. Thank you, Heidi, for giving me the opportunity to talk about it. Thank you all, as I said at the beginning, for your leadership over so many years to help move the country forward.
Heidi Heitkamp (26:24):
This is a part of the show where I have to listen to Joel preach about whatever he wants to preach about, because he thinks he's way smarter than me, which actually isn't true, Joel. It's not true.
Joel Heitkamp (26:34):
Well, I prefer to be called the reverend, but you go ahead. You call me anything you want there, Heidi.
Heidi Heitkamp (26:39):
I'll call you what dad called you, Windy. Little did he know eventually you'd make your living talking.
Joel Heitkamp (26:47):
Weren't you the one he called lazy?
Heidi Heitkamp (26:50):
No, he called me the fat kid.
Joel Heitkamp (26:52):
Oh, okay.
Heidi Heitkamp (26:53):
Building my self-esteem for the rest of my life.
Joel Heitkamp (26:56):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Heidi Heitkamp (26:59):
So we have the intersection of football and politics. In the beginning, it was about Taylor Swift. She's registering a lot of young people, especially young women, encouraging them to use their vote as their voice. That apparently is irritating a lot of the MAGA world and we could talk about that, but it's overtalked about. Now, politics and public policy and tragedy has hit the football world with the shootings at the Kansas City parade. Something that should be just a community celebration turns into a horrific and horrifying event and ironically, and I don't think it was planned, on the anniversary of the Parkland high school murders.
(27:50):
So, now football once again is intertwined with a lot of people's discussion of what to do about guns. You talked to a lot of people whose their most important amendment is the Second Amendment. What are they saying in the aftermath, Joel, of what happened at Kansas?
Joel Heitkamp (28:13):
Well, I mean, if you look at it, the big question with sports individuals is they fear that nothing like this can ever happen again. That is a real sad day, because people are so passionate about their sports teams.
Heidi Heitkamp (28:30):
You mean nobody's going to have a parade, a big event like this?
Joel Heitkamp (28:34):
No, nobody's going to have a parade.
Heidi Heitkamp (28:36):
Because when you go to a stadium, you have to carry a clear purse, you have to go through a magnetometer, you have to go through security. So, there's less concern during something like the game than there would be in an open air event like a parade.
Joel Heitkamp (28:51):
Well, right, you look at the parade itself, there was over a million people there, including our family. A number of members of our family were there, and I had them on my radio show talking about it. You sit there and you wonder whether or not people like that, they've had three world championships in football and the Royals one. So, they've been to four different parades like that just in the last X number of years for them. The plain and simple fact is not only will they not have it if the Chiefs win again next year because you can't, but our family wouldn't go. I mean, isn't that the point, right? They're going to drive them away.
(29:32):
Now, I think this one is different, Heidi, at least the fact that you've got violence upon violence and this wasn't orchestrated to be some mass shooting like some of the others are. But I heard a quote that just stuck with me and it's still sticking with me now, which was, "What's more American than a Superbowl champions parade and what's more American than a mass shooting?"
Heidi Heitkamp (30:00):
Yeah, I will say that the same nephew of ours who was in the midst of this horrific event also was as a senior in high school sheltered in place.
Joel Heitkamp (30:13):
Yes. Yeah. I mean, just think of how he envisions the world versus how you and I did when we were his age.
Heidi Heitkamp (30:21):
Yeah, yeah. It's really quite remarkable, but it does raise the question of when something's going to change, when there's going to be a new look at different strategies to protect people, different public policy strategies. I mean, there are so many innocent people that get hurt when we don't take care of public safety and these strategies...
Joel Heitkamp (30:50):
Well, we're never going to have a real serious debate about what this nation can do with guns until both sides understand what a gun is and how it operates. I've been saying that for years as somebody who owns, I own over 20 guns and everyone for a different reason, some for collectors, some to remember our dad, some to hunt with. I mean, I'm an avid hunter, folks, but let me just say this, that North Dakota, the state that I broadcast from is a perfect example of how you should be able to reverse certain gun laws. There's a thing called a binary trigger. Okay? Now, if you ask the left what a binary trigger is, they wouldn't be able to tell you. A lot of the Congress members that come from the left side of the aisle and you said, "Okay, what's a binary trigger?" They couldn't tell you.
(31:41):
Well, a binary trigger lets go a charge. When you pull it, it shoots. When you let go of it, it shoots. So, as quick as you can move your finger, that gun's going to shoot. Now, that makes that weapon into an automatic weapon. Now, we all know that automatic weapons are illegal in this country, but you know what? Semi-automatics are legal. So, what happens in the state of North Dakota where I'm from, they not only know that binary triggers are legal, which they never should be, but they codified into code and put a whole separate piece of legislation that the NRA wants, so that North Dakota recognizes in the century code that binary triggers are legal.
(32:25):
When they pushed for that, what they didn't plan on was that we were going to lose an officer a block from where I'm standing right now to a binary trigger. I play that sound over and over and over again on my show, because I want people to hear what law enforcement is up against. You know that when they talk about ARs on the left, they oftentimes think about a look. They don't realize how it operates, how that gun operates. Until they understand how it operates and what separates it, they're not going to be taken seriously in a debate on what we can pass on gun legislation.
(33:08):
So, Missouri is all the Wild, Wild West. You can open carry, you can do all of these things. Where I live, it's the same thing. You don't have to have a permit for this, that, or the other thing. The only thing bad about guns is the fact that you can't carry enough of them. There's no common sense as a gun owner, as a hunter, as somebody who supports gun rights up to a level, there are certain gun laws that should and could get passed tomorrow if the left understood what a gun does.
Heidi Heitkamp (33:39):
So Joel, can you hunt with a binary trigger?
Joel Heitkamp (33:42):
No, absolutely not.
Heidi Heitkamp (33:44):
That's my point. My point is a lot of these guns, they're considered unsportsmanlike, right? It's not fair to whatever you're hunting, whatever animal you're hunting. So, we prevent people from using a lot of these same things that are now out in the open market.
Joel Heitkamp (34:04):
Well, a shotgun holds five shells. The average shotgun holds five shells. So, when we hunt pheasants in North Dakota, Game and Fish makes you put a plug in it. So, that the most shells you can get in it are two in the storage chamber, one in the gun itself. So, now you can only have three shells, thus more sporting for the pheasants. Most people like I go with a double barrel, because if I can't hit them in two, they're already gone kind of a philosophy. But I mean, here's the point-
Heidi Heitkamp (34:39):
Joel, you never miss, do you?
Joel Heitkamp (34:41):
Not often, but here's the point. Truly, here's the point. They've got to know the weapon. You can't just look at a synthetic stock and say, "Oh, well, that's an AR."
Heidi Heitkamp (34:53):
Joel, by stock, tell people what a stock is.
Joel Heitkamp (34:57):
Well, stock is what the gun's made of that you put up to your shoulder. It's what the mechanism is built around, but that's the point, isn't it? If you look at the right and what they support, they don't get it either. These idiots in North Dakota that codified that binary trigger just wanted money from the NRA. So, you're one of the 800 law enforcement officers out on that plaza in Kansas City, and you're up against this crap. That's what you're up against. Now, you and I both know that most law enforcement officers tend to be more conservative by their thought. They're more conservative. They're more for gun rights. You would think at some point they would get very, very aggressive at what they're up against.
Heidi Heitkamp (35:44):
Joel, they used to be. When I started in law enforcement, when I became Attorney General, there was a lot of discussion about, especially as it related to things like red flag laws. We didn't call them red flag laws, but being able to see that someone was dangerous, should not have access to weapons, being able to go in and do some kind of court procedure. People would say, "Well, you're violating the Second Amendment rights." We're giving people due process. I have a great story. There was a mom. She had a son who was troubled. He had mental health issues, and she had been taken care of him.
(36:20):
She got really sick and she knew she was going to die. So, she went to the state's attorney and the sheriff and said, "My son should not have guns. She should not have guns." So they out of respect for her went to court, basically got the court to seize the guns, and she died. About three years later, he comes back and says, "I want my guns back. I want my gun rights restored." When the judge asks him, "Well, how are you doing? Are you feeling better?", he goes, "Oh, I'm feeling way better since I stopped my medication."
Joel Heitkamp (36:53):
In today's world, he'd get his guns back.
Heidi Heitkamp (36:58):
We can't legislate a perfect world, but man, we are doing a really bad job legislating a moderately safe world for our kids.
Joel Heitkamp (37:07):
We've got a story for you as well. It's a story of Officer Jake Wallin. He could have been one of those 800 on that plaza wearing a Kansas City hat and his uniform just because he wanted to be there helping out doing his work, right? The guy that shot him here in Fargo, a block from where I live or where I work, is a guy named Mohamad Barakat. Now, Mohamad came to this country legally, legally went through every step possible, wasn't an illegal immigrant. It wasn't nothing like that. Came here, worked, got his citizenship, all of that, got angry. Got angry, right? Because he couldn't live his life the way he wanted, whatever.
(37:52):
But here's the point to this, law enforcement had been to his house three times, three times. They got tipped off by the neighbors. He had an arsenal in his house. They knew it. You know what they could do about it? Not a damn thing, not one thing. This guy was out to the rifle range here in South Fargo, and he was filling LP tanks with explosives. So, he was touching off and shooting them. The only thing that stopped him was that wasn't allowed at the range. He had those LP tanks full of that same thing. He was going up to the street fair in Fargo. He saw an accident on 25th Street. He knew cops were coming. He pulled over there, waited until the cops got there, started shooting him.
(38:41):
Wounded two, killed one, because he knew that if that was the case, then more law enforcement would come there. He'd go downtown to the street fair where he now had his vehicle plump loaded up to blow things up to kill kids, everything. Here we sit. Here we sit, and we're going to defend the fact he had all that weaponry. Come on.
Heidi Heitkamp (39:05):
More recent case, the shooter, young woman who went to Joel Osteen's Church, everybody knew she had problems. So, you're like the mental health crisis meets the gun crisis meets the opioid crisis. I mean, it starts with the individual, but it also starts with the community and it starts with common sense.
Joel Heitkamp (39:31):
Were you happy that that mother got convicted in Michigan?
Heidi Heitkamp (39:37):
Absolutely.
Joel Heitkamp (39:39):
If I would've been on that jury, that would've been the shortest deliberation ever in the history of man. I would've walked in the room, said, "I got to get home. She's guilty, let's go." I mean, she was guilty.
Heidi Heitkamp (39:51):
I mean, I think my main point in all of this is people need to have a conversation just like you and I are having, and people need to be honest and say, "Well, that's the Second Amendment for you." No, it's not the Second Amendment for you. It doesn't have anything to do with the Second Amendment.
Joel Heitkamp (40:08):
Thank God for people like you and John Tester and others, but there aren't enough of you, because you're not going to get it all. You're going to have to pick away at it. I get so mad on my radio show when they say, "Well, how many lives did it save?" You don't know how many lives it saved, because nobody's saying, "Oh, by the way, I couldn't get a gun today, because I had a waiting period. So, I couldn't kill somebody." You don't know how many lives good gun laws saved.
Heidi Heitkamp (40:35):
I mean, there's a lot of planning for people just like this shooter in Fargo, but a lot of it is also impulsive. So, the ability to ask people to wait, it's a little cooling off for emotions. So, Joel, I want to ask one final question, because I know you always try and give something up for Lent. We're in the Lenten season, so what did you give up?
Joel Heitkamp (41:02):
Well, I gave up pop on Fridays. I gave up chocolate. I'm going to try to make it to mass more. I always make it about the sixth Friday, I should say, of Lent, I go without beef or pork, because I forget the other three. So, three out of the six, I usually make it. We're supposed to be eating fish as Catholics, but there's no money in it anymore, Heidi. I used to bet all my friends that I could give up beer for... Hold on. I used to bet my friends I could give up beer for six weeks and I'd make all the money and drive them everywhere. Now they won't gamble on it anymore.
Heidi Heitkamp (41:43):
So in order for you to have a fasting or spiritual, you got to make money on it.
Joel Heitkamp (41:54):
Well, the good Lord gave you brains too, right? I mean, if he gave you the brains to make money, make money, right?
Heidi Heitkamp (42:04):
Yeah. Well, Joel, I mean, hopefully, there'll be a lot of reflection. You know and I know here today, gone tomorrow. It'll be yesterday's story. So, next time on The Hot Dish, we'll talk a little bit more about politics, but this is such an important topic. I think more and more, I think for young people, this is a voting issue.
Joel Heitkamp (42:29):
Well, and I think we saw in New York in that congressional race that people are voting for different reasons than what the national media is saying they're voting for. So, this might just be one of both.
Heidi Heitkamp (42:39):
Well, thanks so much, Joel, for coming on. Until next time, we'll have lots to talk about because the politics in the country is heating up. I'd like to spend some time talking about governor's races across the country. North Dakota's got a competitive one. I think we're going to see more and more. As people look more and more to governors for future leaders, I think it's important to pay attention.
Joel Heitkamp (43:04):
I'll try to educate you there too as well.
Heidi Heitkamp (43:09):
Well, I hope you all enjoyed that as much as I did. It's just fascinating when we have a chance to have a broad conversation about what's happening across the country in parts that not a lot of people think about every day. So, once again, let us know what you think, and we want your suggestions too. So, you can email us at podcast@onecountryproject.com.
Joel Heitkamp (43:33):
You know what? I want to thank you for joining us. The Hot Dish, here, we're just glad you listened. The Hot Dish is brought to you by One Country Project, elevating the needs of rural America and Washington, DC. Learn more at onecountryproject.com.
Heidi Heitkamp (43:49):
We're going to be back in two weeks with The Hot Dish, comfort food for rural America.