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Two founders talk about how to build software businesses that are meant to last. Each episode includes a deep dive into a different topic related to starting, growing, and sustaining a healthy business.
00:00.80
tylerking
What's going on this week Rick woo.
00:01.39
Rick
I knew it was coming. Um so I actually just thought of something I am actually having a call with the founder of Zencastr today which we use to record this podcast. Yeah, it was weird. We were um I saw him post online and i.
00:11.40
tylerking
Really why? Why are you talking to them.
00:19.79
Rick
Hadn't really connected that he lived in Utah um, he does like it's a Utah company and then but he was posting about how they're doing this paper performance podcast advertising ecosystem. Um, which we should probably look into. Maybe we could make a couple dollars from Zencastr's advertising but um they
00:23.30
tylerking
Um.
00:39.40
Rick
Basically are partnering with their podcasters to ah, do some sort of like free. It take no cost to promote. But if you convert if you get a lead out of the podcast advertisement then you pay per lead.
00:54.10
tylerking
I'm not sure I'm not sure I understand what you mean by podcast advertisement like.
00:58.12
Rick
So ah Zencastr has a lot of people recording podcasts and I guess they are working on a like embedding advertisements into the recording process.
01:07.66
tylerking
Okay I think transistor which we use for hosting has something similar like like like and um, maybe they don't I don't know but it's so like we we could say in this spot. Inject an ad in there. We don't know what the ad's going to be um I yeah.
01:09.23
Rick
Mean.
01:19.85
Rick
Yeah, and and you know, but so I was interested in that for leg up health um for particularly for targeting Utah people. Yeah I um and I was like I was just like responded to a one of his proposal was like hey can you do what kind of targeting can you do can you like target Utah like podcasts like that would be interesting.
01:25.70
tylerking
Got you out to to be an advertiser gotcha.
01:37.63
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, cool Zencastr strikes me as a kind of tragic case of a really good product trying to be something. It's not like i.
01:39.44
Rick
Um, and if so ah I'd be interested in talking and it's like let's stop.
01:51.20
Rick
Um, yeah, it's got a limited tam man like maybe you should just be okay with that.
01:54.27
tylerking
Yeah, and I also get it's kind of commodified like there are a million products that do the same thing where like you know you you and I are video streaming. It's recording audio. It's going to record it locally upload it to the cloud do the compression and mixing and all that automatic. There are bunch of tools that do that. But Zencastr does it best I think I've tried all the other ones. But. They don't want to be in that game anymore and it sucks seeing their product slowly move away from what I want it to be but anyway, no, they are okay well then it's all doomed if you're venture funded in the podcast space. Your customers are fucked There's not enough money in podcasting.
02:19.50
Rick
I Totally get it man like um, yeah and they're venture funded so we and we knew. Yeah, so there. Yeah yeah.
02:31.58
Rick
So that's that's I think you know part of the impetus behind like how can we expand this tam. Um, ah my biggest update is ah we have group Health insurance customer number Two Yeah J D Just um, said.
02:36.53
tylerking
Um, to venture Capital man. Well what's going on with you.
02:44.17
tylerking
Nice tell tell me what happened like how how do you get? the second one.
02:51.16
Rick
We're just calling back people that we said no to in the past. So.
02:54.44
tylerking
Tro. Okay, so but which is exciting but it's not like like ah presumably, you'll get through some kind of backlog of these and then it'll slow down does that sound right to you.
03:05.20
Rick
Yes, but um J D's also doing outreach to new people and he's building a pipeline Um, which which is actually an interesting transition because one of the things I wanted to talk to you about was you know you're onboarding now like you're getting into the details right? And um, we're doing that we have a startup to last slack.
03:16.77
tylerking
Or have.
03:22.77
Rick
Instance and we're doing that kind of into silo. Um, and so you know and then I'm also hiring a marketing coach which we should talk. We should talk about at some point in this episode. Um and I'm doing the same thing with him where I'm having conversations with him in this like silo and then Jd's I have a meeting with Jd so I'm like having 3 conversations with like.
03:33.51
tylerking
03:40.97
Rick
3 team members of leg up health asynchronously synchronously and I don't know how to merge these into like 1 team. Um, and I don't know whether that's a good idea even like is it a good. Yeah yeah.
03:48.33
tylerking
Yeah, and like should you? Yeah yeah, yeah I mean if we were all employees of like up health I think no question. Absolutely, it's a good idea. Um I This is a thing I I don't want to say struggle with but I think about a lot a lessening serum is like.
04:05.21
tylerking
Can I be kind of the curator in the middle of everything that's connecting everybody to each other or should I try to remove myself and have it be like a fully flat network of everyone being interconnected with each other.
04:18.16
Rick
And it's not binary like that just that describes it as one or the other there's like a middle. There's like a it's a it's a bar right? like you could go like curate and then like transparent with transparency um is like probably the the next thing over I feel like I'm pure curation right now and I don't like it I think I'm too far on the side. Um.
04:31.25
tylerking
Yeah.
04:35.90
Rick
It's limiting J D's visibility is its contribution his input like um is relationship building with you and anyway it's it's ah anyway, that's we talked about that and I just had a meeting with J D and we were talking about that.
04:46.61
tylerking
Yeah I think that makes it like a thing I've felt so I'll talk more about this later but you know I'm I'm in the first few days of working for you basically doing leg up benefits. Um, and.
04:56.80
Rick
Um, with with your partner Tyler.
04:58.74
tylerking
I'm actually intentionally saying four because I think it's good after 13 years of being in charge I think it's good for me to be subordinate to somebody. Okay, if you're enough. Okay, all right fine I'm working with you. Ah, but.
05:04.50
Rick
With I'm going to correct you every time I do not want you to say that.
05:14.85
tylerking
I The thing I could get out of it is just a little more like hype hypeness from other people. Um because it is fun like when you work with a group of people you can just be like I just did this thing and everyone be like whoa. Yeah and that just that.
05:27.92
Rick
Um, yeah, are you saying that I like when you when you share the Mvp one I didn't respond and you're like oh this sucks.
05:29.50
tylerking
Just that little thing even if I'm not learning anything from them or anything just a little bit of energy can can go a long way.
05:41.88
tylerking
Well I mean I I showed you a what I showed you did not deserve celebration. But um, no I just was thinking that like six weeks could be a lonely time if I'm just. Like you're working full time if I'm just like doing this into a void. Yeah.
05:57.12
Rick
Yeah, well so so yeah, can I talk to you about I think this is an interesting topic I don't think we need to beat it up but like I can can I tell you what I'm thinking I'm going to do based on my conversation with Jd and then you can maybe help me improve upon those. So ah, let me let me but me back up for a second and just tell you about that marketing coach. We're going to hire.
06:04.72
tylerking
Um, yeah.
06:07.47
tylerking
Sure.
06:16.61
Rick
Um, so ah, there's ah ah, the former Cmo of lucid ah press which was the subsidiary of um, what do you call it? ah lucid soft lucid um chart um ah worked. Talking to him and he worked for another small business. Um would he call it. ah ah hr company so he knows our target customer in Utah and he so so anyway, he's got a fractional cmo business that he's just started and so we're we're going to become a customer of his so it's it's just a matter of time.
06:42.13
tylerking
Um, okay.
06:51.49
Rick
Um, and so he's coming on and he's going to do. He's going to I'm using him to create a forcing function for your benefit and Jd's benefit and my benefit around our employer positioning and messaging um and like getting clear about like what our value proposition is it's kind of like a demand maven type project but like much less intense and then so that's going to be like a.
07:04.79
tylerking
No.
07:10.50
Rick
Kind of like a first project and then the second project is like he's going to meet with me and ja d weekly to like help us run experiments on how to set meetings for Jd and he's going to basically be like a whipping coach for us on like and helping us come up with ideas and executing in between meetings on setting.
07:16.78
tylerking
I have.
07:27.27
Rick
Meetings for Jd to pitch employers on legup benefits on group health insurance and on legup health.
07:31.83
tylerking
You're saying coach. So someone else is doing the work who is it you is it J d.
07:35.58
Rick
J d j d me him but like he's actually going to do work too. He's in addition to the coach like he's got 2 hours a week of execution work built into the contract. Um, so ah, so but anyway like there's there's we're gonna hire him. We're you're coming on board and then jd and it's here. So it's like.
07:41.81
tylerking
Okay, cool.
07:51.95
Rick
There's kind of this problem isn't just you. It's It's actually this this other guy too but like different it's different like your partner. He's this is more of a coach like um so not the same thing but same problem.
07:53.10
tylerking
Yeah.
08:02.66
tylerking
And I should say like even if so I I don't know what solutions you're imagining even if let's say there's a team slack workspace they call it I'm still probably just damning you mostly? um, but well I don't know what are you thinking.
08:12.88
Rick
I Would so so so let let me let me kind of um what what I was thinking was everyone should be in slack number one like like we should all be in slack. Everyone should have access to notion. You've already got access to notion I Also think that you should have access to our pipe drive. Um.
08:26.42
tylerking
Ah.
08:29.61
tylerking
I Would love to for yeah for itselfish reasons I'd love to poke around.
08:30.69
Rick
I Think you'll be interested in that for your own reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so so um, so that's one like and and and this other guy should definitely have access to to you know our serum like for his job. Um, and then ah with the slack I think we should you and I should be talking unless it's.
08:40.77
tylerking
Yeah, right.
08:50.55
Rick
About like personnel issues like about like if it's about the product. We should be talking in a channel that is available to other people to watch I think um, much.
08:56.28
tylerking
Yeah, I'm fine with that I don't I don't care about the privacy side but what I my concern with open channels is like it's not as clear who's expected to respond if we have a norm that like I don't have to at mention you every time I'm talking to you. It's understood I'm talking to you then that that sounds fine to me.
09:14.14
Rick
Yeah, so yeah, what I was thinking was like we're we're gonna like talk. It's it's it's a channel for Tyler and Rick to talk and that may ah iterate over time is like its we see what if you get value out of talking to Jd like that could change but like um, you know, but but but it exposes. Our conversation for people to add to if they want to or just to stay up to speed without me having to be the curator right? Like if if we're having a conversation I direct. Yeah, it's on me to say j d he let me give you an update if he's falling along. He can say like I have questions to me versus like it's on me to like catch him up.
09:31.80
tylerking
Yeah, just to follow along boom.
09:46.62
tylerking
Yeah I've definitely ah heard of companies before having a rule. No d no private channels. No dms in slack. Um I now famously this turned into a problem for ah, do you know the luggage company away that they're like 1 of these direct to consumer kind of.
09:57.86
Rick
I don't.
10:04.34
tylerking
Allbird style like anyway. Ah, but they had this culture of no no private communication of any kind which I think worked pretty well except it turned out their Ceo was like abusive or toxic or something and there's all these public channels of her being like really shitty people and it turned into a scandal. But anyway that that's not. That won't be a problem here but I other companies have done this. There's precedent for saying like you might as well just have all your conversations out in the open so I like it.
10:29.46
Rick
Yeah I agree and um with I like your point though of like with clear rules of engagement and ah like what the purpose of the channel is like it's not for everyone to have an opinion like.
10:33.72
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, I Also like this like our free We we talk on a free slack channel and all those messages get lost over time and I do think like you might want a log of these and so that's another reason to have it on a page.
10:52.69
Rick
Well, we're not paying for that So we should probably upgrade our like yeah yep gone nop. Yeah, go get it off.
10:53.63
tylerking
Slack Workspace Well you you will eventually though probably and I think you get all the old logs when you pay, you're never going to pay for the startup to last slack and so those are all gone I guess you could You could be like I'll pay $10 one time and go get all of the messages. But. Yeah I think that makes sense.
11:12.20
Rick
Ah, cool and then um, the you know same thing with with ah the marketing coach. Um, and I'm definitely going to include my big takeaway from my mean with Jd is I'm definitely going to include Jd and all of the meetings and the prep work and like it's going to be more of a we're both working with the marketing coach and probably going to transition to the you know more jd working with the marketing coach long term. Um, and then ah for you like check-in wise like if we have a ah synchronous check-in um I don't know when to include Jd on that but like or whether to and so that's one why I'm like I don't know yet. Um, when when we're out in market I think we're definitely going to want to include Jd in any check-ins that we do because he's going to be the one selling the thing.
11:42.69
tylerking
Yeah.
11:50.46
tylerking
Yeah.
11:51.21
Rick
Um, ah, but if if it's ah pre you know Mvp p I'm not sure what the value is.
11:58.59
tylerking
Yeah I run into this a lessnoing serum where like so having a conversation on slack in a public channel instead of a private dm has 0 overhead. Um, but there's a lot of like everyone smile employees are like hey can you take minutes in the next leadership team meeting and I'm just like no like that. That's costs time and it slows down the conversation and I'm not going to do it. Um, it's a yeah, absolutely.
12:22.47
Rick
Adding someone to a meeting slows the meeting down no matter what like it. It creates it. It changes how you talk it like the level of trust we have is is is different than a level of trust. Um, other people have and and if we bring another person in the meeting we I will talk differently you will talk differently like.
12:37.70
tylerking
Yeah, and it's and you're like well do I have to give k like I could say remember it's a benefits this this is and then you have to like face the other person and say what I'm talking about like let me give you 30 minutes of explanation about the context here. Um, yeah.
12:38.15
Rick
Invisible.
12:48.72
Rick
Do you? Um, do you envision like having a question that I'm like I don't know the answer to that you should go talk to Jd like is there something like ah like that that you can imagine. Yeah yeah.
12:59.12
tylerking
Well, let me jump can I pull 1 of my topics for later which is like so ah so we maybe we should give a little more background on what we're talking about here I think probably everyone listening knows what we're talking about. But I'm going to work with Rick Building the product leg up benefits to go. Side by side with their existing product leg up health um leg up benefits is more of a software play leg up health is more of like it's a kind of no code service software enabled servicing. Okay, um, one of my big question Loco Loco one of my big questions is like you wrote up this big document that's like.
13:24.99
Rick
Low code low code. Yeah.
13:34.53
tylerking
The Spec It's not that big but like the specifications for what you want leg up benefits to be is that validated. Do we need to do customer research like like if we just go build exactly what you have in your head. How confident are you that That's the product we need to build. Can you.
13:48.60
Rick
Pretty high I what I don't know yeah high.
13:53.39
tylerking
I Don't want to like question you but can you share what the like why? why you have so much conviction on that.
13:59.42
Rick
Um, thousands of conversations with small business owners over the last fifteen years um yeah
14:05.84
tylerking
Um, but but specific like like ah people keep the product you used to build. That's the primary source of it's not the conversations you're having now with like a it's both ok.
14:15.95
Rick
It's both like we Yeah, it's both like it's It's not now now but like as part of my research for building leg up like I did a lot of market research and customer interviews and ah mom tests remember that we went through a mom test phase. Yeah no I did it with.
14:26.11
tylerking
Okay, okay I just I know you did that with like up health the like individual insurance side I didn't know you did it with both okay cool. So it's not that we're skipping customer validation. It's that you've already done customer validation.
14:33.67
Rick
No I did it with both. Yeah I did with both. Yeah. Yes, and this is just like if you think about it like this is a better version of what we've done in the past like when J D and I talk some what what there like we talk about like how we've already built this business before but we built it with like an inferior a product that was like very neat nichey and like.
14:52.62
tylerking
Ah.
14:57.84
Rick
Problematic from a compliance standpoint we're going to build the better product this time and the market's better and we've done this before therefore it's going to work and so if that is not true then we'll go do other things and and in twelve months like
15:07.99
tylerking
Yeah, okay, that's cool. This actually resonates with the founding of less knowing serum anytime I'm like interviewed on a podcast with someone the question I always hate is they're like what you do to validate like like. In the early days had you prove how you customer research it and like first of all none of those concepts existed in 2009 early so I didn't know about them but second of all, it's like I I just knew I already knew what it was going to be and it worked and that's a shitty answer because like that that doesn't help. Ah anyone who's trying to learn how to start a startup.
15:32.15
Rick
Yeah, yeah.
15:40.74
tylerking
But I had enough experience from my previous job offering a crm to people that I was like I just and I just know what people want already.
15:46.64
Rick
I Wrote an article about this. Um, when I was starting leg up because we talked about this a lot and I was like how did you know how did you know and you're like you said exactly that and I call what you have is a unique insight. Um, and so like I think most people who start successful businesses. Um, have some sort of unique insight like they they grew up in a household with a construction worker and saw the construction worker go to school you know like have a problem every day and then they started construction software business to solve that problem like it was It wasn't that they like did research and found out that out. It was like they lived it. Um, you had a unique insight about serms as aim benefits because of the.
16:08.63
tylerking
Um, yeah.
16:16.66
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.
16:21.97
Rick
Product that we were offering and we were um you know serving actually building a certain aerm for insurance agents and kept getting more requests for that than we did our actual product. Um, you know I have a unique insight related to this benefit space.
16:26.51
tylerking
Um, yeah.
16:31.82
tylerking
Okay, and I do just we we can move on after this but like disclaimer to what I just said after launching lessening serum. We learned all kinds of stuff we adjusted the pricing a little bit. We realize some features need to be tweaked. It's not that like everything was Perfect. It's that it's much easier to build something and iterate on it than it is to just go an endless customer. Like theoretical customer research before building anything.
16:54.35
Rick
So so this is where I do want to spend some time on because I do think there's a difference between like validating the v v one and then um, working with ah v one customers to make it into a v 2
17:03.62
tylerking
Yeah, so before we went on this tangent. You asked me the question like will J D need to be in these conversations and and the reason I was asking all that is to get to exactly what you're saying here is like if you know what we need to build.
17:06.88
Rick
And I don't have a plan for that with you and I think Jd is critical to like getting our test customers and then having a feedback loop.
17:22.92
tylerking
For this current phase I'm not sure that J D's going to add much. But as soon as it's like let's start hearing what people are saying out in the field. That's when I feel like J D needs to be in the conversation and maybe he should be in there earlier So he's not like a newcomer who doesn't understand the dynamic when when we actually need his input.
17:41.20
Rick
I Believe that um, there's probably some form of like while we're building this is going to happen really fast. So it's probably not even worth spending much time on and we'll just figure it out as a go but like I think the product slack conversation will transparently will.
17:56.56
tylerking
That'll be enough.
17:56.88
Rick
Give him enough and he can ask questions if he wants to and in the minute we're like okay this is ready. We need to go get some test customers some betas like then we're like j d we need to have some sort of regular cadence around this and it's like 1 like what's our pipeline to what are they saying 3 like what changes do we need to make.
18:01.78
tylerking
Yeah.
18:13.32
tylerking
Yeah, that works for me and even between you and me. So in addition to this?? Um I think we a lot of our communication can be Asynchronous. Um I have like I've been putting together a long list of questions for you that I want to talk through probably not like right now. But ah. Aside from those questions I think yeah like I'll do some designs and I can just share a zip message or did you see it's now called Clarity Flow I'll send you a clarity flow.
18:34.97
Rick
Loved the Rebrand I Just I the repositioning I Guess there's more of a better word but like holy cow it just makes so much sense and I know exactly who they're for like that was really they did a really good job.
18:39.71
tylerking
No.
18:47.87
tylerking
I I bet Brian Castles is listening to this and I bet you just brought a big smile to his face. No yeah I think there if go to I assume it's clarity flow dot com it's a great ah like marketing site for sure.
18:53.40
Rick
Um, yeah I was in bro.
18:58.40
Rick
Yeah, yeah, like and in zip message is like this. Oh we have asynchronous video Now it's like we help coaches make more money. It's like oh like you can still use it. Yeah.
19:05.54
tylerking
Yeah, the problem is back back to the Zencastr thing. What I want is as synchronous video but I 100% I 100 and I still will I 100% get it. It absolutely makes sense from a business standpoint and as a customer I'm like no.
19:18.66
Rick
Yeah, yeah, I'm like I'm thinking I like should introduce I'm going to tell this guy I'm hiring for coaching like I'm to tell him about the zip message thing. No no I mean hi thing.
19:25.71
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, anyway, um, but so when I record a clarity flow but I'm still going to call this a message for now. Is it hey Brian let me know is it is clarity flow meant to be like a verb I'm clarity flowing anyway, I don't know is that right? Yeah I don't know.
19:40.60
Rick
I Think you send zip messages on clarity flow. No, that's ah that you should should keep that it's I like zip message. It's good verb.
19:43.70
tylerking
We'll we'll find out. Ah but when I send one to you I can just post it publicly in slack and anyone can watch it so like J D can just see our conversation. Ah, that's happening over zip message.
19:53.17
Rick
I think that is a great idea and I think what it'll do is it'll help Jd it will I think one it it'll inspire jd to go find but test customers and 2 It'll give him talking points like he could even potentially use screenshots to you know he could use some of the materials you're sharing to fake demo stuff.
20:04.12
tylerking
Ah.
20:10.89
tylerking
Yeah, okay, very cool. Um, okay, we're at 20 minutes man when we're when we're working together. There's a lot more weeds to dive into here any yeah yeah for sure. Um.
20:16.28
Rick
This was like super productive I appreciate that and um, do do you have any questions about the marketing coach before I close that one off.
20:26.36
tylerking
Not not really I I'm interested in hearing updates. But I I also feel like this is not something I have a lot to contribute to.
20:32.84
Rick
I Feel really good about it I guess I would just say um I struggled with finding the right level of coach for leg up health like I I've talked to a lot of people who are super in the weeds tactically about ads and like I found that so somewhat helpful but it wasn't like actually helping me. It was just like more execution work.
20:46.99
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.
20:48.99
Rick
This is definitely like a higher level coach. But I think is going to challenge me. Um, and I think it'll actually lead to more success long-term but it's going to be painful in the short term because he's going to ask questions.
20:59.91
tylerking
Can I Just like ah a random observation about how I'm feeling and this is for our audience members who are solo founders. It feels so good. It's such a refreshing break lesseningerm. Our marketing doesn't really work great and that's my problem.
21:03.80
Rick
E.
21:17.87
tylerking
And it is such a good feeling to be like I don't know Rick figured out ah like obviously I care about marketing and if I can help I will help but I like this is a very cool feeling I'm feeling right now that's like I just got to build this product like this is your problem.
21:32.53
Rick
Um, this is what it's like to be a software engineer. Yeah, that's awesome.
21:34.85
tylerking
Yeah I haven't felt this in a long time. But but yeah, having a cofound not that not that I'm your co-founder but like I I could map this to if you're starting a new company and you're trying to decide should have a cofounder. That's why you have a co-founder.
21:48.19
Rick
And I feel very similarly. Um I have worried about learning how to code for 3 years um on this journey because of this point I wanted to get to this point. It's like the fact that I don't have to learn how to code to get to a v one of a legitimately v 1 is like a significant like relief for me.
21:57.61
tylerking
Um, yeah.
22:03.99
tylerking
Yeah, let me 1 more thought on this and then I'll stop because I was just thinking about this the other day. Um this relationship exists because of the 2 years I spent after college I mean you also spent that time but then you stayed there for 10 years or whatever but like.
22:05.35
Rick
You.
22:18.42
tylerking
I do sort of get why it might make sense to go work at a big tech company for 5 years because if I knew 10 people like you instead of 1 person like you ah that would open up some opportunity.
22:31.83
Rick
So interesting that you say that um the the windfall crew they all met at a company. Well I guess a couple of them met in college but like yeah like it's it's cofounders happen and when you work together and you like it's not always how it happens but the amount like.
22:46.31
tylerking
When you see cofounders dating on like indie hackers dot com or something. It's like that's not how you meet a co-founder.
22:48.56
Rick
Then.
22:53.31
Rick
You work together and you learned that you like Wow we actually compliment each other we work well together. Um, we recover from arguments like it's all these like it's all these things that you like assess that you can't like you can't qualify in an interview.
22:58.48
tylerking
The her.
23:05.96
tylerking
Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, cool I'm no like keep us updated on the marketing thing but I don't think have anything else talk about there. Yeah, anything else on your list should I should have dive into my stuff. Okay, cool. Um, so yeah, like my updates I'm.
23:14.77
Rick
Um, yeah, yeah, dive in um I that that was most of what I wanted to cover today. So thanks.
23:22.77
tylerking
For anyone who's been listening. Ah I started my six week sabbatical the first week of which was a just normal vacation I went to tell you I did some snowboarding so this week this is recording this Thursday morning Monday of this week so three days ago was the first like real day. A five week period where I'm kind of working full time on leg up benefits. Um, so yeah, just a few little like observations on the experience. First of all my last day at less knowing Crm was weird. Um because I to my credit I think I did a good job of like. Tying stuff off and the like second half of the Friday of my last day or Thursday because I stopped on a Thursday second half of that day I like just didn't have anything to work on and I have not felt that in 13 years like ah.
24:09.44
Rick
And.
24:13.25
tylerking
Because it's like it doesn't make sense to start something that I'm not going to finish day because I'm I'm just going to set it down for six weeks so I literally like went around and moved furniture in the office for half a day I don't know I made work up but it was a weird feeling and it reminded me before starting a company. Not it z benefits like an internships and stuff I had before that like.
24:21.81
Rick
You made you made work up.
24:33.10
tylerking
Just felt that way all the time I think a lot of people just don't have enough work to do all the time anyway. Ah no, you do not I've seen your calendar before ah second point or observation I get ah you've kind of heard you know.
24:38.42
Rick
I don't have that problem. But.
24:52.61
tylerking
A lot of founders. Their their dream is to exit is to like sell the business and they do it and then apparently like depression like rates skyrocket after companies get sold. Um, and I get it like my first day back are actually even more inteuride.
24:53.59
Rick
Move.
25:10.75
tylerking
Because you know I was on vacation I wasn't meant I wasn't supposed to be working anyway. But like you know we'd get done skiing for the day and we'd be like we're going out to eat in 2 hours what am I going to do for 2 hours normally I would have just pulled out my laptop and fucked around with some work stuff. But I kind of like forced myself not to and I was literally like I do not know what to do like I don't know how to fill. Dead time during the day if I'm not allowing myself to like go into slack and load some reports and stuff like that. So I get why selling a business could be like a a pretty major loss for a founder.
25:42.18
Rick
Yeah I mean routines just get blown up. Are you feeling so like because you know it's not the end you have like you. You don't have to experience the the feeling of loss like um, but that's what a that's yeah, that's what a founder feels right.
25:52.73
tylerking
Right? That would be way worse that would be way worse. Um, yeah, and someone might react to that by saying yeah that means you have an unhealthy relationship with work and you need like other stuff which to some extent? Yeah, but like let's apply that lens to. Oh I have a child I can't imagine life without the child. You wouldn't say well then you should be less attached to your child right? that that wouldn't be what you'd say I I think it's okay to like plan on this is a major part of my life and I expect it to be a long term thing but it is weird. To plan on exiting if if your goal is to exit and you have that relationship with work that sets you up for for a problem in the future I think yeah, absolutely and like yeah at some point I'll retire when like everyone.
26:36.87
Rick
Yeah, yeah, if you want to sell your business. You probably should not get to attach to your business.
26:46.45
tylerking
Eventually stops working at their business but like I'm not worried about the fact that when I'm 60 I'm going to have to stop at less annoying. But anyway it's it's something that'll be on my mind of like yeah I don't know um, this final point is stupid I'm not even going to say that let's move on. Yeah.
27:04.11
Rick
Ah, well I have a question about skiing because I feel like I Ah, last time you went on a ski trip I think you lost your bags you had to buy New Ski equipment. Um, how did it go this time.
27:05.98
tylerking
Ah, yeah.
27:15.89
tylerking
But oh my god better but not much better. Ah so both times we flew united both times both when I went to whistler earlier this year and tell you I just now the bags didn't even get on the first airplane. It's not like they got lost in the layover which is somewhat understandable.
27:26.31
Rick
I guess.
27:32.25
tylerking
They just didn't put them and we it's not like we got there late. We got there like an hour and a half early. They just didn't put the bags on the airplane. Ah, this time they got them to us. Ah, we only missed one day of skiing because of it. But um, yeah, and not love and united right now it was still a great trip. This time was much much better than.
27:46.40
Rick
Um, yeah.
27:50.28
tylerking
Whistler. Not only did we not get our bags but Michael threw his back out Shelly was sick the whole time. It's just a disaster a trip.
27:54.36
Rick
Um, well did who who skied with you this time was it solo.
27:58.98
tylerking
I was me Shelley my wife and then Michael the head of customer service a last sermon and his fiance and then his sister and her boyfriend. So ah, 6 of us. Yeah, Michael's extremely wealthy. Uncle has a house until you're right? and it's it's good living.
28:03.90
Rick
Awesome Whoo! Good That was a good That's a good group.
28:15.20
tylerking
I I got to say I got to say so you're in this house where every single thing is expensive like the bench you sit on to put your boots on is probably like a multi thousand dollar bench um there is not a single thing in that house I would take in place of what I have I think cheaper stuff is better than more expensive stuff. Across the board except he's got a $5000 toilet and if you're yes, I'm about to go buy a $5000 toilet. This thing is life changing he didt see but day ah like talks to you. It's got all kinds of stuff. But.
28:44.88
Rick
Ah, does it have like the heated seed and all I got is that.
28:52.87
tylerking
That's the only thing I'm jealous about um, ok one more update on lessening Crm um, we are testing out or where it's not launch yet. But we're about to test out a new kind of positioning on our homepage.
28:53.42
Rick
Ah, that's awesome.
29:09.66
tylerking
Um, so I thought I'd just kind of give an update on this see if you have any thoughts but um so it's how should I explain this the the impetus behind this There's 2 things that happened that kind of inspired this number one I've ah for a long time now I've been talking about how our website lacks personality. Um, and it used to have it like if you went to lessening serum.com ten years ago. Everything was written in my voice. It was kind of sarcastic. It was kind of I thought funny um, not every business website should be that way. But if your name is less annoying crm and someone's like scrolling through a list of 100 serms and they click on the name lessening serum. You should continue that kind of playfulness on the site and I feel like we lost that so that's 1 thing that's been on my mind. The other thing that's been on my mind is um with a big snow tiny conf earlier this year. The dynamic is like everybody's challenging you like why aren't you doing this. Why aren't you doing that and people kept being like. Okay, why didn't you raise prices when in 2020 when you raise prices from $10 to 15 why didn't you raise it on old customers. You'd make a million dollars instant in air are instantly from that. Why do you have so many customer service people. Why do you pay them so much. These are all these challenges that are like I'm doing stupid shit that is good for the customer. But it's bad for the business. That's the theme I basically said no. I'm not I'm not listening to any of this shut up. That's basically what my reaction was and then someone at big snow tiny Com said something really interesting which was okay, fine. You're doing all this dumb shit for the customer I'm on your webpage right now you don't say this anywhere. You're not bragging about all this stuff that you're doing that's different from every other company.
30:39.76
tylerking
Why not and that really stuck with me so combine these 2 things together. We're going to and sorry third thing um no matter what we do with a b testing. It has never in the last several years changed conversion rates. We'll we'll radically change. We'll change everything about the homepage the design the copy everything conversion rate today is exactly the same. So I thought is like if we're going to convert the same number of people. Let's like have them be on our team more instead of just being like I'm evaluating 5 different different crms and this is yet another crm like. We want them to feel like they're like in the less annoying family a little bit more and so we're going to play with something that I haven't heard marketers say is a good idea. We're going to see if it works and that is like we're not selling the product. We're not selling the value. We're not doing jobs to be done. We're going to sell the company. We're going to say. Less annoying crm is the only tech company you can trust or not the only one but like you you don't trust tech companies you can trust us and that's going to be the whole the whole pitch. Um, so yeah, initial reactions. What do you think.
31:41.40
Rick
I Mean why? not you? you just explained that nothing you do ever changes conversion rates. So why not say what you are and be okay and like and just like shout a little louder I don't know it seems like a no brainer. Yeah.
31:51.72
tylerking
Yeah, okay, cool. Yeah,, we'll see if it maybe this one will change conversion rates. We'll see but my favorite thing on it. We did like a this is for anyone who doesn't get feedback from everyone at the company on everything we did a group brainstorming with people who have nothing to do with marketing and someone who I would not have expected this idea from her. She goes what we should do is get all the bad reviews for our competitors and put them on our homepage and so we're going to do that. It's so aggressive. Um, but this kind of yeah that they don't really get much traffic but we we have them. Yeah.
32:16.82
Rick
Ah, that's great. Yeah, do you have like a less knowing C I am versus competitor pages Really interesting.
32:30.43
tylerking
There's just this serum space has so that they have g two and cap terra and all these companies that like built an entire business around competitor pages. Basically um, we rank below all of those as you'd expect. Um, but anyway this idea also ties into what you talked about in our last episode which is like mamba mentality where you said like.
32:43.13
Rick
Um.
32:49.23
Rick
Um.
32:50.53
tylerking
Kind of the Kobe Bryant channeling the Kobe Bryant spirit of like you can't win if you're not willing to say you're going to win. Um, yeah and I do think like you don't want to come across as arrogant or whatever. But this this new attempt we're trying with the homepage is a little bit more of that mamba mentality of like yeah like.
32:57.20
Rick
Um, even.
33:08.76
tylerking
We are doing a lot of stuff that's good for our customers and we should be bragging about it and we we've just kind of been doing it silently and and meekly in the in the background before this.
33:17.45
Rick
How will you know if this has an impact are you going to use conversion rates for it or could this be just more like this feels better.
33:23.56
tylerking
Yeah, great question. So my hope is if conversion rates. Don't go down I think I'll call this a win and we'll stick with it if they go down then it's a harder question but and then the second thing is I would love to hear customers asking questions about the topics. We bring up on the Homepage. So I'll ask here I'm coaches like has anyone been talking about that like we talk about price increases on the Homepage. We didn't do that before. Are you hearing customers talk about that or like say they saw that or anything like that I don't know if that'll happen or not but I I hope customers get these narratives and then like.
33:52.68
Rick
Are.
33:59.91
tylerking
Not everyone but some of them start talking about them with us what I mean what do you think about that How how let me rephrase? How would you? How would you judge? How would you evaluate it.
34:00.97
Rick
Interesting. Okay.
34:11.85
Rick
I Think that's right I I I generally um, this feels so core to your to less annoying Cm's being that you should go out under saying this stuff almost like you should be willing to go down with the ship if this isn't right? um.
34:23.84
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:27.82
Rick
Maybe there's some tweaks you can make but like I generally like think that being being authentic and proud. Um, when when it's true is um, like what makes being in business fun. So um I I don't know that I could evaluate this in any other way other than like a binary like it's good that we're doing it.
34:39.11
tylerking
Yeah.
34:45.53
tylerking
Yeah, okay that that's how I feel too that we we live in such a metrics driven over quantify everything world that like it's almost embarrassing to say that but like yeah as long as I like it and it's not tanking conversions I think that's all I'm looking for.
34:47.30
Rick
And we're gonna do it. Yeah.
34:58.70
Rick
Yeah, yeah, and there's some like effect here of like I think the alignment it could drive in terms of prioritization and and customer interaction. Um, and just like mentality internally culturally um I think it could be. Ah, huge benefit that you probably already are doing this but it just aligns what you're already saying internally.
35:17.79
tylerking
Um, dude, it's so cool seeing like a team of people like you have a kernel of an idea and seeing them take it and run with it because like eunice our marketing person I I worked closely with her on this. But then Maggie who makes our like onboarding videos and since we're about to launch a redesign. We have to remake all our videos Maggie without any involvement from me Maggie and eunice talked and so they're like if someone sees this homepage and then they sign up how can the video feed off this message. And like keep the less annoying thing going into them actually using the product. It's so cool seeing that type of thing happen. Um all right? That's kind of all my generic updates I have some stuff just about the work I'm doing for leg up benefits I don't yeah, you've got some stuff related to leg up. What's what's the right order to talk about.
35:51.50
Rick
Um, yeah, it's awesome.
36:05.40
tylerking
Here.
36:07.39
Rick
I Think um, why don't we talk about like we may have covered this already. But I think maybe quickly highlighting like where are you and the phase like maybe um, where do you want to be by the time you visit. Where do you want to be by the time you leave and then where what should we like like what is like sort of the high level.
36:14.94
tylerking
Yeah.
36:25.22
Rick
Ah, phases of work here.
36:27.79
tylerking
Yes, absolutely. Um, so I kind of but let's caveat this with like plans are worthless planning is everything you know that quote um I've made a plan and the plan is already off track three days in so like I don't expect this to be right? But the.
36:37.29
Rick
Um, yeah.
36:45.98
tylerking
I've broken my expectation of the work into sort of 4 sort of 3 phases. Um, the first one is learning I so I know how to build a web app but I want to build 1 using standard tools so that it can be handed off to somebody else and that means not building it the way I'm used to so I'm learning laravelle. Tail in Css and some other things. Ah I'm in learning phase right now the net the phase after that is I'm going to build what we'll call the Mvp of like up benefits which I think is enough that you can go sell it and onboard somebody but like it's going to suck but it's sellable.
37:25.28
tylerking
The the phase after that is kind of like making it from a so an ok viable but not great product to a great product I think that that third phase is like beyond the scope of most of this contract you and I have that's how I'm thinking about it like I'll all. My goal is to get it to a point where you have a product you can sell and then it'll probably be like after that it continues to improve does that sound about right to you? Um, and then in parallel with those second 2 is like bug fixes and maintenance as you get more customers I think this is something people don't often account for when they're like thinking about building software is.
37:48.52
Rick
And yep.
38:04.26
tylerking
The more customers you have. You're just going to get bugs. You're going to get like the site's going to go down things like that and um, it'll take more and more time the more customers we have so by the end of the year I I wouldn't be shocked if like the one night a week or whatever I'm spending on this is mostly just like. Bailing water out of the ship and then we'll have to figure out the next year like how do we? Maybe we bring in another developer or something like that to to kind of take it to the next level. That's my expectations. Okay, um so I'm in learning right now. It's if you'd asked me 24 hours ago
38:30.30
Rick
Yep, makes sense got it? yeah.
38:40.25
tylerking
How it's going I'd be like not great. Ah, the first phases of learning just suck is and as you get older and when you're learning something you already know like you know how to make a web app. It's really frustrating to learn. But I think I broke through that yesterday I got get into a point where I can actually start making shit and lareval so feeling pretty good about it. Yeah, it's.
38:56.48
Rick
Um, that's awesome.
39:00.10
tylerking
Ah, my brain just doesn't work the way like all these framework Developers brains work. But I'm I'm figuring it out.
39:06.80
Rick
That's awesome and so um I guess the question would be like at this phase like is there anything you need for me. Um that I could I mean help with.
39:12.95
tylerking
Yeah, ah not at this phase so you already answered 1 of my questions which is like how much conviction do we have around what needs to get built and it's good to hear a lot I assume the actual designs and stuff.
39:26.79
tylerking
I'm leading on like you'll you'll you'll be the editor. You'll tell me, no, not that not that but like all I'll kind of do the first drafts of.
39:32.89
Rick
Yeah, and if you want like examples of workflows that like I think are good related that are similar workflows like I have companies in mind um and particular like aspects of their products. They're like this is a good experience but they're like it's It's a financial services app in a lot of ways. So if you're if you.
39:42.42
tylerking
Okay.
39:49.70
Rick
Use wealth front or any like or turbo to attacks or like any any like modern. Yeah yeah, mint.com yeah yeah that kind of stuff is just like it' pretty standard and so like connecting bake accounts that kind of stuff that's all like ah you know what do you call it? um.
39:51.15
tylerking
Yeah, the like wizard type of hit 1 question at a time. Yeah.
40:08.10
Rick
Standard kind of standard Ui now.
40:10.26
tylerking
Yeah, okay, um, so I think the I will have a bunch of things I need from you where like my plan is once I get the technical stuff like the learning side figured out I'll go into kind of in parallel with that I'm going to start mocking up how I imagine this Mvp. Level going I personally have found that the best way to like get a product good is to just work directly in the mockups rather than you and me having a meeting where we're talking about the specs or whatever because like you might have 1 thing in your head and I have a different thing in my head if we're both looking at figma mockups. There's no real way to be confused about what I what I have envisioned and then you can just give me feedback on what I got wrong? Okay, um, cool I'll probably. But yeah, there's all kinds of little details. We'll talk about but ah yeah, honestly I don't think i.
40:48.91
Rick
Things Great! Love it.
41:03.27
tylerking
I don't fully have in my head How the product's supposed to work So that's going to be I read the document I get like the basic details but that's I think where the main you and me back and forth will be is like just how how's this supposed to work. Yeah, exactly.
41:15.89
Rick
Details. Yeah now. Cool yeah, that's great and there's there could be like ah a v one versus a v two like I don't know like you have to tell you I sure we'll have conversations of like oh that's like way more complex for very little benefit. We should probably cut that from the first version.
41:28.54
tylerking
Um, yeah, absolutely I should say that there's a separate set of things that I'm probably going to need your feedback on which is like like what tool do we want to use to make payments and stuff like that and part of it's going to be me looking at the Api. And figuring out like can we make it work technically but a big part of it's going to be you like there's different fee structures for these different ach payment platforms and all all that kind of stuff and so I'm probably going to ask you to make most of the decisions on that.
42:00.60
Rick
Of course, anything wrote that that that is has a kind of a budgetary long term impact like happy to be that yeah I will be the decisionmaker on those.
42:10.37
tylerking
Yeah, okay, cool. Um, and then we also need to talk about hosting budget at some point just off the top your head. How much do you think it's going to cost to host this app. Let's say with ah 20 companies with you know, a few hundred users.
42:25.12
Rick
Um, I assume like $500 to a thousand dollars a month that would be like my budget in my head.
42:29.43
tylerking
Okay, awesome. It'll be cheaper than that. But um, it it. That's that's comforting so not 0 right? I'm using this. So my least favorite thing about development is like the devops infrastructure side of things and I spent all day Tuesday just trying to get Mysql working on my fucking computer and eventually I was just like this is a waste of time.
42:34.10
Rick
It's not 0
42:48.10
tylerking
Going have you heard of planet scale. It's a hosted Mysql service. Um, it's by people who used to work at Github and I guess they learned like how to make scalable mysql databases at github and they kind of offered offer it as a service.
42:48.27
Rick
Are.
43:02.85
tylerking
So Basically my plan what we'll See. We could always pivot away from this if it doesn't end up working but my plan is to use them and that's probably the part that could get expensive but the good news is like they handle all the backups they handle uptime. They like all that there's a ton of stuff at lessening cm that. Took years and years and years for us to build internal tooling for and they just handled all so I'm pretty excited about that.
43:23.59
Rick
We should. We should probably start a table and notion or a spreadsheet in Google of just like hey these are like the variable costs some of these are going to be fixed to start and these are going to be the ones that are usage based and we should just start building out our cost model.
43:31.60
tylerking
Yeah.
43:38.24
tylerking
Yup I've already got all the ones that relate to me in a table in notion. Um I can send that to you but the the other thing is like dev tools. So there's all these like I already I didn't ask you about this because it's $20 one time and I figured you to prove that but like.
43:40.40
Rick
Cool You're the man.
43:54.70
Rick
Um, yeah course Yeah, that's the a I told.
43:54.65
tylerking
Paid for a special vs code extension to make some of this stuff easier but but there's other stuff that like um, like Github Copilloott are you familiar with that so they just launched like 5 more like so there's like coppiot x and copilot for Pr is and copilot for this and I think if you combine them all together. It's like 50 bucks a month. There there are I don't even know if I want to get all of those but there will be other in addition to hosting costs. There's just kind of like internal tooling costs. So I've got that all on a list and and I'll run it by you later? Um, yeah, that's so we're going. Ah.
44:23.74
Rick
Awesome.
44:32.36
Rick
Um, this is real.
44:32.97
tylerking
I have more interesting things to say in two weeks because my plan is by then I hopefully will have started actually so my plan is I'm gonna I'm doing a practice app right now to learn Larall. It's a blog. That's just what the tutorial does once I have that working I'm going to basically delete it all or put it all aside and rebuild a new thing. That's not the real app but like a. Toy app that just like proves I can do it then I'm going to get it deployed. That's when we sign the paperwork and say ok, this can be done hopefully two weeks from now I'm I'm working on that second the kind of toy app. That's my goal.
45:06.95
Rick
Um, cool. That's great.
45:10.27
tylerking
Yeah I don't know if this makes for interesting radio or not but that's what's going on.
45:12.29
Rick
What I guess is there anything is there anything I can do What is the most important thing for me to do right now to help you is it reply to your questions and just like have Async combo with you at a somewhat rapid pace.
45:26.39
tylerking
I think so um I I do think a synchronous conversation would be good for this first wave of questions. Um I'll send them all to you in advance but like they don't they're not like yes or no, they're not like can I can I buy this thing they're like we need to talk about how we're going to name all these tables.
45:31.66
Rick
Um, okay.
45:43.94
Rick
Yes, okay, okay, got it. Yeah's you tell me when you need. So I guess there's like 2 things like 1 is like when you send async questions being responsive. Um and the other is ah when you need synchronous time like just being jumping on a call and talking through things.
45:44.17
tylerking
Um, that type of thing.
45:59.33
tylerking
Yeah I mean we shouldn't do it live because I bore our audience but can we like before we leave today. Can we just schedule a time for a synchronous call. Okay, cool. Um, yeah, that's so so and have more more updates in two weeks so
46:01.13
Rick
Now. Yeah.
46:04.58
Rick
Yeah, of course.
46:12.96
Rick
Um, let's go. Let's go. This is great. Um I'm I'm actually like this is just just kind of share how I'm feeling about this with with the audience like I am when I did my annual review recap episode with Tyler in December or January I can't remember what it was but like i.
46:15.98
tylerking
Yeah, let's let's do it.
46:32.51
Rick
1 of the reflectors I had is this has been my vision for at least 8 years of something to build and I just haven't built it. Um and I keep like putting it off because I'm scared I realize I was just scared of failing and so I do have this like fear that this will fail. Um, and that this will be too. They they just won't work for a number of different reasons. But I'm power. We're powering through that and I still feel that and I I probably won't feel great until we have customers that are happy paying us money saying this is the best thing since sliced bread. Um, but but the fact that we're doing this now is so much better than just thinking about doing it. I.
47:08.17
tylerking
Yeah.
47:09.93
Rick
This progress even it's it's not real. It's like actual progress yet. But like this just that the fact that we're moving on this is ah is is so much better than just worrying about when whether I'm going to build this thing before I die.
47:22.20
tylerking
I mean that's what separates entrepreneurs from entrepreneurs right? Um because I still have this feeling with lessening serum despite having millions of dollars in revenue and stuff like that I still every day I'm like. Are we are we actually good enough to compete in the crm space. It's so competitive. Do people want this and it's like obviously yeah, they do. But I have that thought every day and you just have to go build it. So yeah I get I get where you're coming from I'm I'm I'm very excited about it and again I'm especially excited because all I have to do is make the tech work.
47:44.24
Rick
Ah.
47:53.49
tylerking
And then other people are going to go turn that into a business which is pretty cool.
47:56.91
Rick
You bet you bet you bet? Um, ah the other um thing I wanted to share brother. They did group health insurance I'm switching subjects. Um, so ah, we've I've mentioned it briefly at the beginning that we signed our second group health insurance customer. So if you're in Utah you sell and you offer your employees group health insurance and listen to this podcast.
48:02.90
tylerking
You have.
48:14.82
Rick
Please please please give us a chance to pitch you. You do not have to sign up but like if you can schedule a meeting with me my my partner Jd and just let him like walk you through our value proposition. Be great at bad for us. We'll learn from it and maybe you want to become our customer I don't know so I'll just say that the but they but we've brought on to customers and. Consumers are very simple like it's like they make the decision. You know they they have a question you answer the question with group health insurance I'd forgotten about all the stuff that an employer has to deal with like you hire someone? you've got to add them. You've got to send them notices they have oh they have this special situation. You've got to explain this special situation. And there's all these like there's the business owner who's usually the decision maker then there's like an admin person who's like doing the admin stuff and then there's the agent and then there's the insurance company. The's the employee. There's the spouse and it's like actually pretty complex. Um, so we've already gone through a couple of like terminations with our new clients of like do I have to offer Cobra. Cobra is stupid. Oh my god and so there's all these things and it's all paper based yeah um, yet just for the learning.
49:15.27
tylerking
Do you think it's worth it because for a long time you are turning ah but for a long time you're turning away group insurance customers like do you feel good about diving into this world. Okay.
49:23.90
Rick
Oh yeah, oh it's like in same problem they are undererved and so and like not like we're finding what we found a little learning this week which is the gusto The payroll company a a lot of group small groups.
49:40.39
tylerking
Yeah, right? Yeah, we use gusto if if you operated in Missouri we'd switch to you immediately like yeah.
49:43.22
Rick
But they don't providing service. Yeah, so like that's a huge if we find out someone's there's no yeah, right? like and you you can call us when you have a question like like um so that that we're we're finding that like there's a lot of ah of customers who are getting 0 service. And just the fact that they know they can call us is huge and right now we're realizing wow we could build a software workflow for Cobra notices. Um, so there's all these like ah opportunities that we're seeing just 2 customers in they're like wow this is unserved and untapped.
50:17.62
tylerking
That's awesome. Yeah, the harder it is the more paper based it is the more complicated is the the more opportunity there is for you to make it better. Awesome! Um I like that I yeah too many too many businesses start on things that are like.
50:24.23
Rick
Yes, exactly.
50:35.43
tylerking
A good business. It is a good business too. Any other people are doing it which segways nicely to um, there's kind of 2 trending topics right now one Silicon Valley bank and one is Ai. We probably don't have time for both. Do you have a preference of which one of these we talk about.
50:39.81
Rick
Yep.
50:52.70
Rick
We I mean I think we could talk about Ai for the rest of this year svb is going to um, kind of become less timely. So why don't we talk about scb.
50:55.59
tylerking
Okay, okay, that's absolutely fine. Then my Seway point doesn't apply because it's sewayed into ai no no, no no, you're right, Let's talk about I Also don't it. It is like things are moving so fast that it's like does anyone even care about anyone talking about Svb like.
51:04.53
Rick
Um, oh well, let's oh do the.
51:14.91
tylerking
Like Silicon Valley bank you know a week and a half after it collapsed. Do do you have anything any thoughts on it.
51:22.20
Rick
Just that like ah how fragile I mean our system is I think that's like the probably my biggest observation is just man like that was fast and um and you know I I don't under I don't know enough like disclaimer I do not know enough about how this all.
51:31.60
tylerking
Um, yeah.
51:39.73
Rick
All the dependencies work but it does feel like the way people are reacting is that like it came close to a like pretty catastrophic sort of Domino effect. Um I don't understand the details but like but I but it's hard for me I don't know how much of a house of cards we have but it it just it just reminded me of like.
51:49.61
tylerking
Yeah.
51:57.98
Rick
This stuff could break.
51:59.42
tylerking
Here's what's frustrating to me about a lot of the discourse about this is so what you're saying is absolutely true, but the thing is like people are saying that's true because of x y z financial indicator right? It's because oh the the interest rates went up and all these banks have these tenure treasuries and now they're underwater on them and they're insolvent or whatever but that. The way people talk about it like if you listen to Scott Galloway or my first million or all these like kind of people who you know talk about this stuff. They're like they're saying that because these banks were like their their books were weak. That's why they were susceptible to a bankrun. They. Entire business model of a bank is if every single one of your customers goes and tries to withdraw their money on the same day you go out of business every bank it doesn't matter how healthy the bank is right? So like the idea. Yes, it's a house of cards. But it's we all just have to not do a bankrun.
52:52.38
Rick
Um, yeah, but that's that's like let's like recycling we should all recycle.
52:55.52
tylerking
No absolutely. But my point is like nothing has so maybe things have changed that make like the finances of these businesses worse. But the fact that banks can be run on is not new that was true every single day of our entire lives and I just feel like people talking about it like. Silicon Valley bank failed because they couldn't survive a bankru. No bank can survive a bank run. That's how banks work but the the thing is they the bankru happened because their books were bad but their survival was irrelevant I think.
53:19.60
Rick
Yeah, yeah.
53:29.68
Rick
I Guess I guess what? what? Um what I I agree with what you're saying what what I guess what I'm trying to say more so more clearly is um I didn't it surprised me how quickly that happened and what what the triggering.
53:42.16
tylerking
Yeah.
53:46.61
Rick
Instance was was like not something I like put together and it was like like okay like there is a little bit of whackamole here. Um with and and it does seem like it. You know with there's like a whole like group of thought literature around like systems thinking like the system is so complex.
53:48.39
tylerking
The.
54:06.12
Rick
It's hard to predict when you try to pull like fix one part of the system. What the impact does on the other part of the system and it's like there is this like real thing where our our system is so complex like after the fact that you could analyze it and say we believe that this was what it is but like predicting what happens when you raise interest rates right now is like.
54:21.83
tylerking
Ah.
54:25.27
Rick
It's somewhat like impossible.
54:25.71
tylerking
Yeah, well, especially because it's an adversarial system like if you if you like at 2008 not that the people who there weren't necessarily like scammers per se that caused it but there were its extreme greed. It's like if there's any way to squeeze a little bit of extra money out of the system you squeeze it. And then you leverage that squeeze and turn it into 10 X and then you leverage that and there are these people who are basically bad actors working like that that are trying to over leverage just squeeze everything out and so if there's even the tiniest crack in the system. Yeah,, they're going to get in there and they're going to destroy the whole thing and so. To be clear. My point earlier is not that the whole thing's not going to fall apart that that was not my point. My point was that it's a confident.. It's a trust based system. It is we all have to stay calm and it's It's my Analogy. You know how like a sports team wins like the super bowl or whatever and then the City riots or they lose the super bowl in the City riots.
55:23.24
Rick
Um, yeah, yeah, that's your that's.
55:24.62
tylerking
And it's like efforts that's a stupid fucking reason to riot what that exposes is everybody was waiting for an excuse to riot. Um, so anyway yeah I don't know I will say for the first time ever I'm like not sure what to do with less knowing serum's money. Um.
55:35.37
Rick
Ah, yep.
55:40.79
Rick
In what.
55:43.57
tylerking
We we don't we have enough that it's like our money's currently in mercury they have $5000000 in Fdc insurance because they do the sweep account thing. So like we're well under that but it is like ok but if they go if there's a bank run and.
55:51.63
Rick
Um, that's cool.
55:58.66
tylerking
if if I have to wait a week for the money that could still be a big problem I'm not worried about losing it. But I am worried about waiting a week but there's like lots of logistical challenges and spreading it across different banks. So yeah I don't know entirely what to do aside from just like be like well the United States is fairly stable. It'll it'll be fine.
56:14.36
Rick
Listen if if you had yeah you can't There's some things you just can't worry about yeah.
56:21.43
tylerking
Yeah now I agree So for a second we were like eyeing it like should we do something and at this point I'm just like let's just keep all our money in Mercury and um, it'll be fine or it won't whatever.
56:27.93
Rick
I Mean it's the same thing. This is the same thing with like a benefits. It's like I could worry about you asked me a question that's pretty like I mean I don't know the answer to but I like is this the right product to build like I I believe it is like I can't worry about that right now I have to we have to go build this thing and go try.
56:41.28
tylerking
Yeah, have go yeah all right? So no huge insights on Silicon Valley bank but we talked about it. We checked that off our list. Ah.
56:45.14
Rick
And then you know if it's wrong. It's wrong.
56:52.62
Rick
and and next week or two weeks from now we will talk about Ai sure. Thank thank you for the time Tyler if you like to review past topics and show notes visit star to last dot com see you next week
56:56.39
tylerking
Yeah, there we go all right? You want to sign us off here. Yeah, see you.