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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
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Mishu Hilmy (00:03)
Welcome to Mischief and Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones, and into big, bold, risky,
So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com.
Mastery. Today we have a fun one chatting with Elissa Wolf. I did not know her too well so it was nice to spend an hour or so talking and getting into it. Elissa Wolf is a director and educator specializing in Shakespeare with experience across the Midwest and East Coast. She has taught with organizations like the former Chicago Youth Shakespeare and Chesapeake Shakespeare Company and leads workshops on Shakespeare's Linguistic Clues. Her research on the sides has been featured at
major Shakespeare conferences and she's currently pursuing a PhD in English at King's College London to further explore and dive into the lovely topic of all things Shakespeare. In the episode we chat about the joys and difficulties of directing as well as apprenticeship and the fun of finding strong points of view in auditions.
moving from acting to directing and bouncing between the two. We also talk about how Shakespeare influences her approach to rehearsals and performances and language. So if you're into theater, into Shakespeare, into acting, auditions and casting, then this one's for you. I'll add more of Elissa's info in the show notes. You can check out her website at www.elissawolf.com as well as her Instagram at EliWolf007.
So here it is, me and Elissa. Hope you enjoy.
You seem to have a fair mix of acting and Shakespeare work and, know, think it's about your creativity as well as directing. So like, what are you focusing or engaging in like right now that is taking up like 80 % of your mental effort?
Elissa Wolf (02:27)
So it's kind of funny. I've, I would say the last three to four months have actually been one of my biggest breaks from what I would say is like a creative. I wrapped up an assistant directing job in New Jersey, which has like weirdly became the state this past year that I bounced back and forth between. Somehow have put together like a life where I'm like in the Midwest. I do things in Wisconsin. I do things in Illinois and then the East coast. Like I am over there.
doing things quite a lot, which I enjoy. But yeah, New Jersey was like this past year, I've been there a few times and I was like, wow, okay, New Jersey is the hub this year for like other projects. So I wrapped up an assistant directing gig in August. And then it's just, I'm starting my PhD in January and I'm moving. And so yeah, I'll be moving to England. And so I was like, I am not sure I can take on some creative projects. And so
It's been an interesting lull of just being like, okay, we're just doing work. We're saving up money for this like next big chapter of my life, which is focused on Shakespeare. But yeah, so it's I feel like I've been missing that creative process. I always
When I talk with people, would say rehearsals are my favorite part of any process, whether it's directing or acting. think acting wise, like you talk to actors and they're like, I'm so happy we're in the run of the show. Like we could do this for 50 weekends. And I was like, I would rather have three months of rehearsal and one opening weekend and then be done. I really enjoy the conversations and the collaborations that like can happen. And I think as an actor that
has something like I enjoyed that so much that I really tried to translate that over into my directing work. But yeah, so to answer the original question of like what I've been working on, it's kind of just been a lot of prep, like very academic prep work, which is kind of boring. It's a lot of outlines. But I also the switch to directing or how that came about is significantly more recent. Like I think that really started last year just because I realized how much I enjoyed it.
I was getting a little sick of acting, which I hate saying because it's still like something I love. But at the time I was like, I'm not enjoying this. But you know, we like our creative, I think creative people have to find an outlet somehow. And I was like, okay, well, I can't just like leave theater. Like, that's not a possibility. So I started directing and it just ended up.
working out really, really well. So I've also, I just emailed like a few different theater companies and I've been observing rehearsals, which is one of the things I really, really love doing. A few years ago, I was fortunate enough to observe rehearsals at Chicago Shakespeare for when they did Barbara Gaines did her, I think it was her last show with them, the Comedy of Errors. And that was a really wonderful process. And then I got to observe some rehearsals for the Goodman's Christmas Carol, which is like now happening. So that was really recent, which was fun.
Because I mean, it's such a like, I don't know, tradition for so many people. you're like, well, this is the Christmas Carol that's at the Goodman. And so it was really fun to just be in the rehearsal room. It's also such a big cast because you have like from kids to and so it was really, I love observing rehearsals if I can because every director is different, every show is different, how they interact with people. So that's, it's been a lot of emails and conversations more than just like specific projects like recently.
Mishu Hilmy (05:44)
Yeah, I directing is one of those things where it's hard to do, like hard to get the skill without either practicing it, like doing it. And I think the next best step is like getting in those rooms and just observing. So I think the two part process question for the most recent chunk you mentioned.
around observing rehearsals is like one, what is sort of the process of you reaching out to those institutions? Is it, know, at the relationship level, you know, the director or you have a relationship with the institution or are they cold? Like what, what's been your approach? What's been successful? What's been ghosted? How have you gone?
Elissa Wolf (06:15)
So there's some, I will say there's some really phenomenal fellowships that exist and I'm bummed because this year they just don't work with my timeframe. So there are some really great fellowships that offer observer ships, which is really, really great. My go-to has literally just been cold emails and I will look up who's directing a show. Is it a show I'm interested in? And then I will politely find their email address and then I will send them like, I have a draft on my computer and all that's like,
Hi, this is my name. This is my background. Here's my headshot resume. Like, you know, let me know. And I would say what's been really nice is that I should really crunch the numbers on this. I would be morbidly curious, but I do think out of like, let's say I send 10 emails in a week, I'm probably getting three responses, which it still feels like you're like, that's wow. People are actually.
Mishu Hilmy (07:08)
Thank you.
Elissa Wolf (07:10)
So, right, it doesn't feel too bad. So it's been cold emails. And I was really fortunate with the one at the Goodman because the director there, that she's doing, Christmas Carol, she's a teacher at Northwestern. And so she had a bunch of her directing students observing rehearsals. And so she just let me come with her students. Which worked out really well. that she, and I mean, that's what you're going to find too. Some directors are super open to having people in the rehearsal room and others are not. And you know,
Mishu Hilmy (07:28)
Nice one.
Elissa Wolf (07:40)
And I understand both practices are especially like, depending on the day, what scenes you're running.
Mishu Hilmy (07:45)
Yeah, in the email, how do you position yourself like, you know, in terms of discretion in terms of like, what your intentions are, what they're to gain? Or is it just like, legit? Like, hey, yeah, I if you do something like this, I'm interested in simply observing, I wouldn't say anything like
Elissa Wolf (07:59)
I do lay out the background of like, I'm an actor at the rehearsal, like very much like I understand that the rehearsal room can be like a very secret place. If the few are allow open rehearsal observations, I would really love to join. been an actor, my background's in Shakespeare. I do email a lot for classic theater. Like I don't think I've ever emailed to like look at a new work. Like I think most of it is like, I know classics are my wheelhouse. I know Shakespeare specifically is like, I know him very well. And so.
I normally I'll say I have a very strong background in this one particular topic. I realize my shortcomings in the fact that it is like the only topic I know. I would really love to get to know more classics or other shows. And I think your show, your rehearsal room would be a really great place to learn that. Because I mean, with Shakespeare versus other shows, like there's so much emphasis on the text and all these other things that you know, you have in Shakespeare that kind of
don't aren't a main focus in other shows or new works. And so you're kind of always like, yeah, like, don't I understand like my resume? And you're like, why are you asking to observe rehearsals for Noises Off? And you're like, I just really love to like learn more about this show because of the physical comedy. And then, you know, so very much explaining like, this is what I know, this is what I think I can gain from observing this particular production.
Mishu Hilmy (09:17)
pretty sort of transparent of like, this is for me to learn. Because as an observer, you're not necessarily providing much reciprocal value in that like, you're just there, but people feel value in supporting and, you know, mentoring and nurturing artists, even if it's just at the observational point. it's like, anyone has their own goals or intentions. It's not your job to decipher like why they would say yes versus why they say no. But it's interesting that you're pretty transparent. The second question to that chunk was just around
Like what's the thing most recently that you're like, wow, I'm going to steal this directing tool versus wow, I hope I would never direct or, you know, make a move like that. What are the kind of the highs and lows of like when you
Elissa Wolf (09:56)
I
love that question because I just had this conversation with a friend of mine because, and again, I think this comes from an acting perspective as well, is like when you're working on a scene and you're rehearsing it and you just want to get through the scene, like don't stop me, don't interrupt me. I just like, need to get through this. And so I have, I had been working on very much a process of like, I just let the actors run their scenes and then I give notes at the end. And I had been doing that. I received feedback from
director and he was like, I don't do that. Like, I don't let them run through their scenes because I have to fix or mold or do this. I was like, but if you do that, it's changing this other thing. So like, I just want to see what the whole thing is and then I'll go back and I will see. And I also find that helpful because if I stop them and start them.
What emotions did we just get out? Where do we have to go back to? You're stopping in the middle of the scene. I know how frustrated like as an actor, I'm like, oh God, you'd like interrupting me right at this like emotional peak. I was actually feeling great about that scene. And then it's really interesting because sometimes you're like, oh, do I need to fix it? And then you see where the actor's going and you're like, wait, actually, it's not that wasn't the problem. It's actually this other thing. And so it was maybe I'll say valid, like selfishly validating to like watch the most recent like at the Goodman. She just.
every rehearsal I was at, they would run the whole scene and she would give notes. They'd run the whole scene and she'd give notes. I was like, okay, so this is a way to do it. Because I've definitely seen a handful of other rehearsal rooms where you're going to see the stop and start and stop and start. I will also say twofold to that is like, there's like, I don't know, I would have to ask actors that have worked with me because sometimes I can get like super particular. And I do have to tell them like, if this is to the point where you're like, girl, this doesn't matter.
Please have that conversation with me. I don't want you to be like stuck here, but I do have moments where sometimes I'm like, okay guys, like that whole scene was great. We just need to run this one spot. And then I will hyper fixate on like two to three lines as I'm trying to figure out. And I think about this in the most, one of the most recent shows that I directed, we did Shakespeare in Love, which is a huge cast and lots of moving parts. And so when we were working on these things, it was also just me, I'm a mover. I don't sit.
I can't sit, like if I can't just sit and watch the actors do it. If you were an actor watching me, I'm like walking around the entire auditorium and I'm like walking all the way up to the back and I'm like, okay, that sight line looks good. Does this look good? And so sometimes we're working on a scene and I'm like, we need to shift you. I really need you to do this. And it's like for these three lines and I'm like, I know it.
feels like ridiculous, but it'll make a difference. So I think, you know, it is validating when you're still young and like starting and being like, somebody else also does this. And at the professional level that I would love to get to. And so at the end of all of that, I think what I find, what I found really rewarding in observing rehearsals with Goodman was how many conversations she was having with actors while things were coming up. because
I think it's so wonderful when people are on the same page and are living within the same world. And as an actor, I've definitely been in plays where I'm like, come in with my own ideas. And then we've never really had a conversation about like what world we're like. And I guess I use this for Shakespeare specifically is cause like, how many times have you seen a Midsummer Night's Dream? And it's been different every single time. So it is helpful to know like what world you're living in. And then you're like, okay, I came in with like this very specific idea and you're doing it. And then like,
weeks into the process, the director's like, so actually I'd like this and you're like, I would have fixed this like two weeks ago. like, now you're feeling like you're backtracking. so it was really lovely to just witness a bunch of conversations of like, I'm seeing it like this. And I was thinking it more of this way. I see what you're saying. I can try. I'll try to adjust this because I was thinking of it this way. And then you see two people going, well, actually what you're doing works.
Can we alter what you've just talked about in this other way that also like you get that meld, you get that compromise. And I think so it's just, think more conversations because we hired actors because we trust them as artists and they're not just a means of like, I have an idea and you're going to do it.
Mishu Hilmy (14:12)
Yeah, it's so interesting because I think those kind of two elements that you're speaking to there is like one, like the first part of two different approaches perspectives, right? Like the macro versus the micro. And I think I would agree of like, let the craftspeople, the artists on stage at the rehearsal, the exploration process, like go through the macro, see where their impulses and their bodies and their
perspectives take them versus like instant calibration. Cause then it's like, all right, do CGI, get a puppet. Like if you want to control every action, every move, every gesture, then like.
Elissa Wolf (14:43)
Seeing how everything plays out in the full picture also lets you see what the actor as an individual is going to need help with because every actor is different. So if you start and stop, you never get to actually see what their journey is because you're stopping it before you're getting any result.
Mishu Hilmy (15:01)
It can become either too cerebral or too mechanical. And I think I'm similar in terms of rehearsals and directing. I like to pace, I like to move. I don't like to talk or really give notes. I like to run thrills. if something, like my gut goes like, I don't really connect with the impulse that this performer approached. I'll clock it, I'll jot it down as a note. And like, how can we play around with those moments? And that's where the particularity gets into it, where it's like the hyper fixation of like, yeah, these three lines, like if they're not...
working with the vision that you have, you want to fix it so it makes sense at the end or it can help build or contribute or launch off of. So I think it's a good balancing act. go like, is this hyper fixation or is this an aesthetic principle that I'm going to stick to my guns and go look this actor style or approach. It might feel fine or funny now, but come act three, it might, you know, this is me reading.
Elissa Wolf (15:51)
And I think that's, you the other thing is it's like, art is so subjective. And I try to clock this with myself is do I not like it because it's not my vision or do I not like it because it's different. And so sometimes again, that's why it's so important to, I think like the first week, especially when it comes to blocking and acting, I give very little notes because I am so curious. prior to that, again, because you know,
we want everybody living in the same world is I always share like an artistic statement. Like this is what I'm looking for for our world so that everybody's like, this is what we're building off of, you know? And I do a lot of table work and then I get it up on its feet and I'm like, we're going to see what discussion is stuck. We're going to see the information that I gave you, what you're going to do with it. So I think it's for me, it's definitely a blend of like a bunch of different things. And then it's so funny because like as an actor, I really
never felt comfortable when a director would be like, okay, I don't think this is working, so let's do some exercises. And I'm like, ooh, oh, okay, I guess we could try that. And then now, as a director, sometimes I'm, okay, let's do an exercise. I'm like, oh, I think I know why they do that now. Because we can get so in our heads about things. And the director's just like, we gotta take a break from this and do something, come at it from a different way.
Mishu Hilmy (17:08)
Right. And it's I think ultimately the duty of like the person directing and creating the rehearsal space, in my opinion, is to create like the safest place to allow failure, exploration, awkwardness. And I think, you know, someone who's acting, I've done it for a decade plus of acting like there's like a judgment. I just want to do my process versus an exercise. But I think the benefit of drills or exploration is to like let go and let go of judgment. I'd be like, I know how I should do this versus
The director might not know, the actor might not know. And in play, there might be a beautiful discovery that came from exercise X game number six that happened to reveal, wow, there's potency in this action or this tempo or this.
Elissa Wolf (17:50)
Yeah, I think, again, like so much of this is Shakespeare. But one of my favorite exercises is working with the, you know, you and thou. And the and thou and those forms are the very lovely, lovey-dovey, like very close, intimate. And then you is considered like the distancing word. And so I will physicalize it with my actors, like in a scene. And I'm like, OK, so every time you say you, we're taking one step back. Every time we say the we're taking one step forward. And I love doing that.
for a lot of those like really juicy relationship scenes because sometimes you're like, they're theing and they're theing and they're getting so close. And then someone says you and you're like, Whoa, like, okay, what happened? What was the shift? Like, why were we getting so close? There was a moment we were building something and now we're taking a step back. And so I find that exercise to be really helpful when you just like, you're like, we're not emoting, we're taking steps, we're moving. And they're like, what did happen? Like, what shift? What caused that? And I always find that one. It's also helping.
helpful for blocking when like actors are like, I don't know where I need to move and I don't know what to do. And you're like, okay, you just have to move on these words. Let's see what happens.
Mishu Hilmy (18:56)
conversation around what is this world and doing that early on to, think that's something like valuable and important about like setting those expectations and going like, look, as someone who's directing or visioning out this piece, this is kind of the style or the vibe or the experience I'm imagining the approach and like setting that up as early as possible. Cause yeah, if you've been in a production where like you don't know and you're just kind of like, this is what I'm doing. It's interesting. like, you know, you can set expectations and people will disregard them nonetheless.
But you find that it's like now a priority to go like, I wish as an actor, I had this happen more often. So now in directing, I'll try to go look, whether it's week one, day one, or the first two rehearsals of just reverting and reminding like, yes, I get that move. But if we play in this style, it might make it more farce, a farce, but I want this to be a little bit more subtle.
Elissa Wolf (19:46)
Yeah, and I find I do find it really helpful because as soon as usually you go, you start to have that conversation of like, hey, especially because if you've had that conversation, you go, you can say, hey, we've talked about this. so then because then you have that singular point that everybody can go back to. And then sometimes what's really great is that the actor will be like, oh, I thought I was doing that. And you're like, okay, so your mind is in the spot of what we talked about. So what isn't working like?
When you do this and you think you're doing that and I'm not reading it, why first of all am I not reading it? That could be a me thing. What do we need to change so that I'm visualizing that? Or what information can I give you to help iron that out? And so I do find that if you've really had that conversation early, that you can keep going back to it. And it's like that guiding light that you're like, okay, especially like...
again, for shows or parts that people dream of being in, you know, and like you might have your very different idea for that play. They can be like, OK, this might not be the time for this particular version of Helena. But, know, girl, you'll get I promise you'll probably have a few more chances to play Helena.
Mishu Hilmy (20:57)
And
like, allowing that sense of play and exploration in rehearsals, like maybe if it's totally off the map, it's like, all right, I'll them fudge around for a couple of minutes and then correct it at the end of the scene. But I'm curious because I think, you know, in theater work, when it comes to casting versus, say, camera work, where it's like, when I see a camera audition, I would like their point of view to be like 90%, 80 to 90 % there and go like, yes, this is it. Do you have the same sense of like the auditioning for a theater piece?
Or is it less about their point of view and rather like, see that they're coming with arm with something, but I trust that in the rehearsal process, I can get them closer to what I had in mind.
Elissa Wolf (21:39)
Yeah, I think so when I go into like an audition room as a director, I and you know, we have a group of people I have like rough points of like, this is kind of what I'm looking for. I will also make sure that my character descriptions are kind of trying to paint them in a specific way so that again, like they're like, okay, this is this is the idea that she has so that they have that background information so that as an actor, they can prep in an inappropriate way. And then when they come in,
My biggest thing is really like, yeah, you made a choice. And I can see why you made that choice. Because sometimes people make a choice and you're like, I don't understand that choice. But if they make a choice, it's a strong choice and it makes sense. That's something I'm looking for. And then I am definitely of the mind where I will make a bullet point list for myself and be like, OK, what are things that I wanted to see in this character? Did I see them? If I didn't, I will give direction. I will see how well that actor takes direction.
If they take that direction or I see that they attempted to change or they did something different, I'm like, great, there's, can do something here. This is, this is something we can, you work with. This is an actor that, you know, is listening and is trying to, you know, like an audition room where you're nervous, trying to like implement this new direction, because you will get actors where you ask for it. And they're like, they must not have liked what I've done. And I'm going to give you the exact same thing that I've already done. But I.
I just, because I remind myself of this, like in one of the classes that I had for like in college and it was auditions and they're like, you know, most of the time when a director gives you a note, it's because they just want to see if you can take direction. And I'll admit for me, I'm seeing if you want to collaborate, have a conversation and listen to or try to, you know, do that. And so it is like, if you get that pushback, you're like, it's really more can I work with someone then then like, yes, like, normally, like, you know, they're good at what they do. But then it's very much for me, like,
I work with them? Do I think this is going to be, are they another person that fits in this puzzle that is going to provide a fun environment where everybody can work? sometimes you hire one actor against maybe your gut instinct and then the whole process for everybody gets so bogged down. so for me, I'd rather have a room full of lovely people that I could work with and have conversations with than people that are just
gonna like disregard what I say and do it their way and not listen to their actor, like their fellow actors, not listen to me.
Mishu Hilmy (24:05)
I think in the audition setting, it's the opportunity to go look, if you're being asked to try it differently, I think that's more of an opportunity to go, wow, they're engaged where they want to see how I take a note and can flex it. That's usually a disappointment when they do the similar version but upped by 3 % versus either take the note or like ample.
Elissa Wolf (24:28)
It's the same thing but louder and you're like, okay
Mishu Hilmy (24:33)
There are sort of two chunks from earlier. I was just around New Jersey and your ADing experience. So I'm curious in terms of the process for you, know, like flying out, are you staying up at family, friends, hotel? The Theatre Institute have enough money to cover a decent stipend on where you're staying. How long was it? Like a six week rehearsal? I'm curious about the experience.
Elissa Wolf (24:57)
My first one, so for me, anytime I'm looking at it, I'll just say like in general, anytime I'm looking at a gig, I will roughly see if I might know one person that lives in that area. And if they do, I'm like, I'm applying for this just again, because I'm still very much at that new stage where I'm like, kind of applying for anything because you're like, I hope this works. So usually I know that I will have housing in some capacity. That being said, both of the New Jersey jobs that I had this year,
both theaters were actually able to provide housing, which was really lovely. And you don't always get that. So the first time I was in New Jersey was in February and I was with Two River Theater and they're in Red Bank, New Jersey, which is like a very lovely river town. It's a small town that has just gorgeous theater in it. You're kind of like, wow.
And I really love my time with them. They have a really great program called A Little Shakespeare, and it's all high school students that then put on a production of Shakespeare, helped with Cedar Professionals, and I was the dramaturg on that one. And I got to be in, I came in very much just at Tech Week. I did a lot of Zoom conferences just because of scheduling stuff, and they were very accommodating of that. And so then I really just came in that last Tech Week to help iron out some things with the students. And it was a really fun experience, and Red Bank is lovely.
If you're in New Jersey, please go to Red Bank. It's lovely. My second, I was with the Shakespeare Theater of New Jersey. They have a partnership with the university. And so I got to stay in a dorm room and the one for New Jersey, they do an outdoor show, but they also have a theater that's on the same campus. So for those that were involved in that show, the commute is very nice because you're just have to like walk down a path and like you're at the theater.
Mishu Hilmy (26:38)
Yeah, it's great that they can do it, but it's sort of like the mixed bag of where you're going to stay. It makes me think of Frances Ha in that third act where she's back in college. I guess this is more of a silly question, but for you, how would you describe the difference between a theater AD, a dramaturg, and a director? What's the main components that you would differentiate between?
Elissa Wolf (26:59)
also will throw in that assistant directors and dramaturges in the UK operate very differently than here as well. And so I've been fortunate enough to be in the UK twice before for school. And so it's always interesting how pieces are just a little different everywhere. here, I would say, and again, like for dramaturges, not every company hires them. So if you hire a dramaturge, think if you have
If you hire a dramaturge, then that means that your assistant director does not have dramaturge responsibilities. And I say that because as an assistant director on shows that have not had dramaturges, I have had dramaturge responsibilities. So for a dramaturge, I would say, like if we're looking at them all three different entities, a dramaturge is having a conversation with the director about, again, what world are we looking at? Okay, we're looking at a play and we've decided to, you know, it's a play that
doesn't have a specific time. So we've decided to set it in like the 1970s. Great. The cast also is very weak. It doesn't matter if the character like that we have a character name, but it can be a man or a woman. can be non-binary. Great. if we
group, this whole group of people. I say this because we did a show that we all was originally like an all boys school and we did it with all girls. And so we were like, okay, what does this change? It didn't have a time periods announced in 1970s, all girl Catholic school. Great. Let's look at Catholic schools in the 1970s and what information can I give you? Also what women movement was happening in the 1970s?
So lot of it's that cultural context that kind of helps, you know, the actors go, what is the world that is going on around me while I'm also living in this? And how might those, you know, political social decisions like impact my character? So I would say that's like one of the biggest things that I do is, I mean, it's the research, it's a lot of that kind of stuff. Yeah, so that's the short answer on that. And then for an assistant director.
I, it's a great question. I still don't know what I do as an assistant director because it's been different every single time. I'm like, can someone just tell me what my job is? Sometimes I've written down the blocking. Typically that's a stage manager job, but sometimes that's been assigned to me. So sometimes I'm writing down the blocking. Sometimes I'm doing the research. Sometimes I'm running rehearsals. A lot of the times I will say like,
pretty standard thing that you do as an assistant director is run understudy rehearsals. And so it's really paying attention to what your primary cast is doing and how you can pass along that information to your understudies and then run those rehearsals effectively. I would say that that's pretty much the same. And then as a director, I'll admit for me, I hate taking notes. So when I have an assistant director or stage manager who can do all the blocking, I'm like, you have to write everything down because I will refer back to it. But
I don't want to write it down myself. and it's, yeah, it's, mean, you, don't know, I guess it's another good question. I do a lot of the scheduling myself, but some stage managers, stage managers will do it. And so sometimes again, it's also how many people you have on staff, the size of the theater itself. And so sometimes the three things you just listed all kind of overlapped or intersect and drift apart depending on like what you're doing.
Mishu Hilmy (30:15)
I've directed theater, so I just have these memories of like, yeah, it's important to know the blocking because like when you're running tech and it's like you got 200 cues, if you're just kind of willy nilly and tell you to have that reference. But I guess I'm curious, in instances where you've had a dramaturg in the rehearsal, like if a question comes up, say from the actor going like, I don't understand, like, does this make sense? Like, what's the sort of channel of communication of like, you know, is it a little
sort of huddle with the drum during the director or like what's on I mean it depends on every room
Elissa Wolf (30:50)
question comes up and I'll immediately ask the actor, I'm like, is this something that like you need to know right now because it is going to help you? And then I'm fine taking a break. And then I'll ask my dramaturg, like, do you mind? And then we'll maybe I'll work with other actors and we'll do something else or we'll continue to run it or whatnot. And again, it depends on like, where you're at in the timeframe of the rehearsal where you're like, I love that you've asked this question, but actually, we still haven't blocked these last five pages. And we really need to block these five pages. So I'm not ignoring you. But like,
Hey, so and so, can you please like look that up? Great. We will send you an email later today. So I definitely, it's the balancing act of like what I, as the director came in with with rehearsal, we're like, great, we're going to block all of these pages and we're going to get it done. Versus like also like the actor being like, I really actually want to know this because I think it will impact, you know, what I'm doing and then, you know, responding accordingly. So.
Mishu Hilmy (31:43)
you've
done sort of a variety of like queer productions and queer castings. how do you approach like queering up casting and what are your thoughts on like, you know, integration of the dramaturg or is that more of directing thing or of an institution thing, right? Like depending on the theater who's has a sort of mission objective.
Elissa Wolf (31:58)
Yeah, so I did that with Pride Arts. they have their, as an overall theater company, they have their mission of being very accessible for the LGBTQ plus community and providing those opportunities, which I think is really great. For me as a director, again, I kind of looping back to Shakespeare again, but most of those characters can be played by anyone. so I...
I think it's really helpful and I do this, I try to do this as a director if I have like, if I have auditions, I will ask people to come, I will say like, what character are you interested in? Because I have so many times submitted and then they're like, we would like you to read for and I'm like, okay, I can, I can read. mean, I used to be blonde and now I'm brunette and that drastically changed what I would get called in for I will say. Sometimes you're just like, I okay, well.
know why you probably made that assumption, but I actually really love to read for this. And so I try when I have auditions to on a sheet or a form, ask actors like what part would you like to audition for? And then, you know, when I get that information, I go, Okay, well, I'll probably have, I'll probably call them in for this, but I will also make sure that they get to read for this character that they have said that they they want to but it is it's
For me, it's seeing the actors, they come in the room, I'm like, okay, great, you were phenomenal for this. I didn't think about you for this, but actually I absolutely loved that. Now I really wanna do that. Okay, if I'm gonna do that, what are the ripple effects? And then, I mean, I'm just also like someone who's like, okay, was like, maybe this wasn't my original idea, but maybe it's gonna be better. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (33:31)
It's the beauty of casting or it's like if I choose this person, it's their point of view so like so fresh, so whatever. But if I choose this person, it has implications of like, well, what's the perspective of the whole show or the vibe or the relationships? So it's a good challenge to have. I think having that flexibility, I'd rather have that flexibility than be like, it needs to be this type of
Elissa Wolf (33:51)
Because you really truly might not have thought of any like something and then you're like, I can't like ever imagine this any other way. Yeah, I so it is but then yeah, as you said, you get that casting puzzle and that is always my favorite and I think simultaneously it's my favorite and least favorite part about like directing because yeah, because
Yeah, I don't know. just actually recently talked about this in another interview where I was like, yeah, it's about, you know, I guess maybe this kind of leans into like the struggles or things is like when I was an actor and I'd go into an audition room and I felt like I did a really good job and then I wouldn't get a call back writing at the part. And then, you know, on the flip side, like now that I'm on that side of the table, I'm like, I can love so many people that come through that door. But if I put one person here, then it means this and it means this. it doesn't mean that I didn't think you did like the best. Absolutely. Like
Mishu Hilmy (34:33)
Right.
Elissa Wolf (34:39)
lovely job and like I'm really hoping that I can work with you in the future. It just means that like right now it didn't work and that's just because of the puzzle. It's not because of like anything you did. Yeah, I understand that a lot more now than I did when I was acting and I was like, but I did such a good job.
Mishu Hilmy (34:55)
think incredibly empowering to have that perspective. And I think, yeah, the pain of the casting puzzle and the process is just like, if I had infinite time and infinite resources, I would love to create a world with this person or this perspective. alas, it's just like, this is the project. And I still like you. You gave a nine out of 10 performance. I would have cast you had these things not occur, but it's there. I think just a couple other questions from the earlier block around this four month period, right? So it's like, you have this...
of break before months you're preparing for this PhD program, a little bit of a quiet spell. So like what's your approach to like intention when it comes to having a quiet spell? Like how do you deal with either creating habit routine or reading your thoughts?
Elissa Wolf (35:37)
go and see a lot of theater. I really do. love theater. love Shakespeare so much. mean, Shakespeare's borderline of personality trait, fine. I love it. I can talk about him forever. But I will go see so many shows if I can. And I take a little notebook.
because I am not an annoying person and I will sit there in the dark with a very tiny notebook and I'll be like, my gosh, I absolutely love that. I'm totally stealing that. That's something that I would do if I got to do the show. I also write down the things that I don't like and I'm like, my gosh, I would never do that. That made no sense to me, but now I'm making a note of it because I never want to do that. But yeah, I'll just go and see a lot of theater and be inspired. It's been really fun. I've had a few friends that have just...
kind of moved to Chicago and they're like breaking into the market and they're kind of like, what was your process? And I really love having conversations and talking to actors about like breaking into the industry or like laying the foundation because when I was, I mean, I still consider myself like up and coming. I don't know, but it felt really hard to break in to a lot of spaces. And so.
I love having those conversations. think gatekeeping is like the absolute worst thing you can do in theater. I think we're starting to see that with our audiences. so like, okay, if we're seeing that with our audiences, part of it is like who we're inviting into the space to actually be seen. And so I think that's all kind of interconnected. And so I just try to have as many conversations as I can. Nothing's a secret. Like if you want to know, I will tell you. I don't think there's any...
I don't think there's anything positive that can come from just being like, I'm not going to share this with you. I'm actually going to keep it to myself. So, know, email people, take classes, like do it all if you can. And if you have questions, like I'll try my best to answer them. So I think that's been the kind of last few months has been, you know, I've had a lot of friends to ask questions and I found that to be a kind of fulfilling thing to do. while I'm preparing for this next step is be like, yeah, let me.
Let me hopefully provide you some good advice to like get, you know, get your foot in the door for sure.
Mishu Hilmy (37:42)
Sometimes I think the Harris journey, it's like you can become at the end of the day, a teacher or a tyrant, right? Like when you have accumulated this knowledge, this wealth of experience, do you hold on to it like a monopoly or do you let it go? And like in the spirit of competition, to me, it's like if I'm playing at X level of competition, I want to be the most challenged. so like whether I win or lose doesn't matter. Like the play is the that's the game. So I just think it is disappointing when it is that level of like self preservation, monopolistic thinking.
kind of gatekeeping. So kudos to having the spirit of mentorship or letting go of knowledge.
Elissa Wolf (38:17)
Yeah, I mean, I think I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I still get really frustrated because I don't feel like I have the answers and I'm like, well, who can I ask? I don't have anybody to help me with that. And so I think it comes from like having that experience and knowing that and being like, I hate how this feels. I don't want anybody else to feel this way.
Mishu Hilmy (38:34)
So this PhD program starting in the new year, moving to England, what kind of motivated it? What's the process? What's that going to look like?
Elissa Wolf (38:42)
I have always really loved Shakespeare. We can blame my uncle for that. He gave me like my first like kid's folio when I was 10 and I loved it. I don't think I understood all of it, but I really loved it. Then college, we dabbled a lot more with the text and I got more familiar with it. And then I finished college and was like, I don't really know what I was doing, a bunch of acting stuff.
but I really liked Shakespeare and auditioning for those plays. And I was like, I want to learn more. I don't feel like I actually know enough and I want to know more. And my brother was getting his PhD at the time. And he was like, hey, I heard about this program with the University of Birmingham and it's called the Shakespeare Institute. And you can get an MA in Shakespeare and Creativity, which is like this program where they work with the Royal Shakespeare Company. And it's like.
social commentary, education and acting all rolled into one program and I was like, well, this sounds perfect. And so I like impulsively auditioned for that at midnight or I should say submitted. I was like, do do do, sent everything off and I was like, well, I guess we'll see what happens. And then like a month later, like really truly not thinking about it. A month later, I got this email that was like, so you've been accepted. And I was like, I'm freaking moving. Okay. Like that's crazy. So
did my master's, pandemic happened, I ended up graduating from my master's program in 2020. And then from there, I've just pursued many different theatrical things. And then recently, I was just like, Whoa, I, I, my dissertation for my master's, I really loved my topic. And it's about the use of asides in Shakespeare. And I really loved that topic. And I didn't feel like I had
You know, I only have 15,000 words and I didn't feel like I had sufficiently covered everything that you can talk about. And so I was like, I think I'm going to go back and get a PhD in this topic because I have thought about it since I've graduated. I've done conferences. I've talked about it is one of my favorite topics. I am not ready to let it go. There's so much more to say. So then I looked up programs and then I applied to King's College London, which is where I'm going to be. They have a partnership with Shakespeare's Globe. So very nice. And so for me, I mean, many
people approach PhDs differently. But for me, it was to expand upon the topic that I had started for my master's and I love England. The arts funding over there is delightful. So I will not lie, that is an appeal. Because I also get the question of like, hey, so you're gonna do a PhD, you're gonna teach? And I'm like, no, I'm not teaching. I wanna become an artistic director. And they're like, okay. And I'm like, I wanna go get this PhD and do this thing.
want to provide it. Mine's practice based as well, because I really care about actors and directors. So it's this whole like, I'm doing this thing to provide a tool for actors so that I can create a book so that they can have this tool. And then I want when that's all said and done, like I hope that I can direct and then eventually, like very, very far down the line, like maybe run a theater company. And I'm like, that's the trajectory. We'll see if it happens. But yeah, I'm fascinated with and I think this is the dramaturgy and everything too is like how research
can inform storytelling and how exercises can make you a better actor or a better director. And so my huge portion of my research is applying that in practice because I'll read some really lovely academic work about things. And I'm like, that's amazing. I don't know how to apply that at all. And so I'm just there for artists to like have a tool to do something with. That's what I hope.
Mishu Hilmy (42:10)
real exciting, know, transition times of transition are exciting. was talking to my partner about it, like, as one gets older, it's you have less of these transitional opportunities, because I think there's a degree of risk involved, right? Like, for you graduate high school, maybe you go to college, graduate college, you move to a new town, new city. And usually you might get planted. So like, invite yourself to still swing and still have that curiosity, take risks in life like a real exciting time.
So yeah, because you mentioned you're going to be like prepping for this PhD. The next few weeks, I guess, are you like buffing up getting your your kind of your research approach?
Elissa Wolf (42:48)
Yeah, I have an outline. literally finished an outline like a few days ago and I'm like, okay, like this is what we're looking at for, you know, like this is the whole outline for the whole thing, which will obviously change. But I was like, if I don't have some kind of plan for the whole project, I'm going to freak out. So like I created this whole outline and then I went back in and was like, I went through my original dissertation and I highlighted, I was like, we need to expand upon this part. We need to expand upon this part. We need to expand upon this part. This needs more research. There's
I think what's also been fun is like I graduated in 2020 when I did this. There's some new books with new thoughts. And so I'm like, lit review. We need to look at this book. We need to look at this book. We need to look at this book. So there's that. It's also like I have a ton of books and I'm like, do I want to pack those in my suitcase? So figuring out like how much logistical stuff I can actually pack and take with me and, you know, finding a house, finishing visa, visa stuff is all done. Thank goodness. But yeah, it's when you
Go internationally. There are many things that you have to do.
Mishu Hilmy (43:49)
What do you think is the simplest or smallest creative tool that you use that has had the most impact or the most consistent impact?
Elissa Wolf (43:57)
I guess part of me is thinking about this in terms of an audition, I guess, like what is something that I do. And before I even read the thing out loud, I will just read it in my head a couple of times. And then from that, I will then just read it.
then I will move to reading it out loud, just reading it, not trying to emote, not trying to do anything and just see what naturally comes about and how that makes me feel. And so I know that's like not related to directing or anything, but just like a very simple approach of just like, just need to get the words off the page and see how that makes me feel after doing just a little bit of like, it's that like reading it versus saying it kind of thing and what that brings up for you. It makes any sense. don't know. That's what like, I think sometimes we're so focused as actors to just jump right in for a monologue or like just do it. And it's like,
Okay, but like, what if we just like read it and like, just take it for like what it could be, you know, without like any pre thought, I guess.
Mishu Hilmy (44:50)
like the idea of something small and how can you extrapolate from it? Is there a philosophical underpinning of to observe without judgment or kind of action to go, I am going to look at this thing and take it in rather than how can I form it? So I don't know if that's an extrapolation.
Elissa Wolf (45:07)
No, I think that was a much more succinct thing of what I was trying to say of just like absorbing something versus like putting your own thoughts onto it right away.
Mishu Hilmy (45:15)
Yeah, I think that's an interesting approach to take a beat and not necessarily do it. At least it was an absolute, absolute delight channel.
Elissa Wolf (45:22)
Yes, same, this was delightful.
Mishu Hilmy (45:24)
you
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. Thanks for sticking around this far. So let's play around with the creative prompt inspired by our conversation.
For this creative prompt, if you're into it, choose one day this week to be an observer, not just of shows, but of rehearsals, meetings, and even conversations. No judgment, just observe, pay attention, feel free to take notes, furtively take notes if you need to, and see what you'd want to steal as an artist or avoid as an artist or director. Sometimes it's good to just make observations, and this is inspired a little bit by cognitive apprenticeship.
how you can learn by just paying attention to experts or silently watching how people around you solve problems. So give it a shot, find an environment where you can just observe folks and take notes, see what you would like to use with them. Hope this is a fun prompt for you. Feel free to do it, ignore it or whatever, and I'll see you at the next one.
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