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You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
Hey guys. Welcome back to the Dad Tired podcast. Glad that you were here. If you're just finding us for the first time, super glad that you did. Uh, we are a group of guys from all over the world who are trying to take our faith, our family, and our marriages very seriously. Um, we don't take ourself too seriously, but we do take Jesus seriously.
If that's something that interests you or you can resonate with, we'd love to have you be part of our little community. We've got tens of thousands of guys from all over the world who are a part of this. We're not just a podcast. We have conferences. All around the country and world and we would love to have you come, be part of what we're doing.
A lot of like-minded guys near you. Yeah, we're glad that you're here and we'd love to have you come be part of that. You can do that by going to da tire.com. Learn more all about the ministry, but also you can find that community online. It's not on social media, so there are no distractions, but if you go to dad tire.com, click the community tap, you can get more information about that.
Speaking of community, uh, today we are taking questions from the community. We've never done this before, but we thought it'd be a fun. Way to just hear what's on your guys' hearts and the stuff that you guys are wrestling through. And so we put on social media, we just asked you guys any questions that are on your hearts, go ahead and call 'em in.
And we had, um, a bunch of people call in. And so we took a few of those questions today. We would love to take more. If you have a question that you'd like us to tackle on the podcast, you can call 5 0 3 8 7 7 3 8 3 6. You can just save that into your phone. And then whenever you're thinking of something that pops into your brain.
Just call that, leave a message, tell us who you are, what state you're in, and your question, or you can be anonymous if you want to do that, and, uh, we would be happy to take that question for you. But again, it's 5 0 3 8 7 7 3 8 3 6. Before we jump into today's episode, I do wanna thank my friends over at WinShape Camps for sponsoring it.
Man, I'm a huge fan of WinShape. I have been for years. I've got to participate in a lot of things that they do. And they have a high standard for excellence, as you would imagine, because they are created actually by the founder of Chick-fil-A. So when you experience anything that they do, you're going to get that same level of customer service, experience, quality.
They just do an incredible job. And if you can believe it, summer's right around the corner. And so you might be thinking about family camps or summer camp. Maybe you wanna send your kids to a day camp or an overnight camp, or want to do a camp together as a whole family. They have all of those things all over the country.
They even have one in Georgia, which Layla and I will be participating in and hosting. That is going to be on Father's Day, starting Father's Day Day that whole week. Layla and I will be at that one, but they've got tons more. So even if you don't, can't join the one that we're at, they've got a ton of them.
If you go to win shape camps.org, you can learn more about their, like I said, they have boys camps, girls camps, overnight camps, day camps. Family camps, all kinds of stuff. You wanna learn more about all of that. Go to win shape camps.org. Again, that's WIN win shape camps.org. You can get more information on that right now.
So I'm so excited for this new. Kind of segment rendition of data. We've never done this before, but we have Caleb on and Chris on. Both of these guys have been encouragement to you guys as listeners over the last couple years, whether it's through a podcast episode that they've recorded and I. Shared with you or just that one of our retreats, which by the way, both of them are gonna be at our retreat September this year.
So if you haven't grabbed tickets to that, you definitely should da tire.com and just click the conferences tab. But my goal for this segment, give the opportunity for you da tire listeners to share some of the questions that are on your mind, whether it is about marriage or parenting, or manhood or theology.
Just kind of whatever stirring in you. To call in and then have these guys kind of, we'll just pick their brain and see what they're thinking on it. So we put it out there on the social media platforms. A couple weeks ago we were able to get some questions, but I'm just going to fire away guys, if that's cool with you.
And we'll just start getting after. It's good to see you guys. Alright, this first question comes from Mariah and she's in South Carolina. Let me play this one for you. Hi, my name is Mariah. I am from South Carolina, and my question has to do with the day of judgment. So, uh, years ago when I was a lukewarm Christian and wasn't reading my Bible, I thought that when we die, that that is our day of judgment before God to determine if we go to heaven or Hell.
Um, but since giving my life to Jesus, um, reading the Bible, I've learned that the day of judgment is actually when Jesus comes to judge for living in the dead. When he comes back. And so I guess I'm just a little confused if we're judged twice, um, if we're judged to get into heaven after we die and then judged again, um, when Jesus returns and ultimately wondering.
I don't know, almost if we go to heaven at all. Um, so if you could help me with this question, that would be great. Thank you so much. Yeah. I figured we'd just start with the light stuff, you know, just kind of dive Yeah. Before we jump into answering that question, I do wanna say upfront, both of you guys, I think, kind of come from different church backgrounds, but you are the two most respected.
Like, I don't know if I respect anyone more on the planet than you two guys. So I, I think it's fun. Like, I, I'm okay if we have differing thoughts and ideas of what the script. Per se, and I think it would be really fun to kind of dialogue. Just in however you guys see fit. So anyway, Caleb or Chris first thoughts, when you hear Mariah's question, go ahead.
Yeah. I think that the biblical pattern is that the day of judgment is a fixed day at the return of Christ. The idea obviously in scriptures, the scripture is always quoted is to be advocate for the body, is to be present with Christ. That the moment a believer passes, they're immediately in the presence of Jesus.
I even think about Paul in Philippians one. You know this, to live is Christ and to die is gain. Which one? I can't decide. But his concept is obviously that at his death, he's in the presence of Christ. What the Bible teaches is that at the day of Judgment, at the return of Christ, the last day at the resurrection, that there's a final, a culmination of God's narrative of history, and from there believers who have gone on to be with the Lord that are in the presence of Jesus now, and what we call heaven.
Will have resurrected bodies and exist on the new Earth. So the idea is essentially that there is no person dead today who's in the final place, either in heaven or hell. Even in Revelation, it talks about, uh, death in Hades is the phrase death in Hades will be cast into the lake of fire. And so there's a, a final, like a fire that even those who today we would say are not in heaven with Jesus, but are in a place of judgment, are not in their final place of judgment.
So everyone's in a holding pattern until the return of Christ, at the return of Christ. Believers will live in a new creation on the earth with resurrected bodies and unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire. So we are waiting the day of judgment where we get reward and resurrected bodies and, but when our loved ones pass today, there in the presence of Jesus, kind of in that holding place, waiting for the return of Christ.
Chris, do you agree with that? Did I miss anything? Yeah, I think I both agree and disagree. I, I think I would turn to basically the, your personal eschatology kind of, obviously plays in here, but yeah, sure. I would steal from like the Jesuit mindset or almost a Catholic background, which I don't have a Catholic background, but I like the way that they talk about the differentiation between particular judgment and general judgment, or a particular judgment and universal judgment, which is at the time of death.
Everyone, the, the things that informed that in my theology would be Jesus on the cross today, you'll be with me in paradise. Hebrews 9 27 at the moment that you die, then we face judgment without any really kind of separation between those two things in there. And if there was gonna be a period of X amount of eons or whatever it was gonna be, I would feel like that'd be a big part of like the timeline, a big part of the process.
So this is what we call an A secondary issue, right? And so this is where sure. The early church fathers would say in primary things, unity in secondary things, liberty, but in all things charity. So this is, you could live your whole life believing that there's gonna be one, two, or three different judgment, whatever.
It doesn't really, it's not self, it's not something that's gonna bear on whether or not someone is saved. I think I would personally say that when someone dies, they immediately are either with Christ or they're separated from Christ in a particular judgment for each individual. And then on the last day when God comes back with the sounding resounding trumpets, and then he reforms the earth, I.
To make a way for the believers to live here forever. That obviously hasn't happened yet because our earth is not perfected and it's not reformed, and it's not the way that it's going to be. So in that way, I do think it's a little bit like a holding pattern like Caleb was talking about, where we go up, we're with Christ, but then we get our resurrected bodies and we live forever here on Earth.
So. The Bible, again, it's, it's one of those interesting things that if it was super clear on it, there wouldn't be any division on it, but it's not, and so it almost seems to be like a, eh, this doesn't really matter. What we do know is that by grace, all people are saved through faith in Christ and that we will, there is a judgment that is coming for every person I.
I think this is made really clear again in in Hebrews chapter nine, but I would use those terms particular and generalized judgment to understand the immediate one and then the one that takes place at the end of time. But no, believers don't get judged twice, nor do non-believers get judged twice. There is one judgment for each person when they die, and then a generalized one for everyone who's there when he comes back in the sound of a trumpet.
This is something I could be totally wrong about, but that would be my perspective on it. I would just clarify that when we say holding pattern, being in the presence of Jesus is glorious and beautiful and, and wonderful. We're are waiting for the return of Christ, but it's in no way like, uh, waiting in line at Walmart or something.
It's, it is a beautiful waiting. Okay. See, you were sounding kind of purgatorial there, but Yeah. Yeah. No, no. We were no in the throne room of God in the glory and beauty of Jesus. Yeah. No way. A Walmart line holding pattern just sounds boring to me. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's probably not good language. Yeah, probably not good language with you then, then.
I'm totally with you. Awesome. I appreciate you guys just picking your brains on that and, uh, sharing your perspectives. Let's move on, uh, for the sake of time to this question from Justin, from Oregon. Hi Jerry, this is Justin calling out of Oregon. Hey, uh, I have a question about, uh, divorce. You gave me some encouragement to call in over your network or your, uh, community page, and my question is, has God ever prompted anybody in scripture or in testimonies to actually divorce their spouse?
Some small content here is, you know, there's no physical abuse towards her. There's no physical abuse towards my kid. Recovering alcoholic, five months sober. Thank the Lord. Huge heart change due to the Holy Spirit. She had mentioned that, you know what, if it's in God's plan for us to divorce, so I just have, you know, my question is, you know, has God ever prompted people to actually divorce?
Thank you very much. First of all, I just wanna say, Justin, I'm proud of you, man, for, uh, five months sober. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, it's huge. The fact that the Holy Spirit has been changing your heart and, uh, it sounds like you're also in the middle of some. Deep marital friction. So let's tackle His question essentially is from my perspective, is, is divorce ever?
Okay? He said there's no abuse happening from his perspective, but his wife may be suggesting that maybe God is prompting us to get a divorce or this is part of God's plan. Caleb, why don't you start us? What do you think? Yeah, I think that the general answer is obviously no, there's no scriptural example, no doctrinal case you could build to say that God's ever initiated or prompted a divorce.
We obviously get Matthew 10, the kind of exemption of adultery, like anyone who divorces his wife except for sexual morality. Commits adultery, so you get this idea, exemptions is maybe the right word, or cases where it's permitted. Sometimes people use the word permitted and other people get frustrated with that.
So I think in the case of sexual morality, and I would probably say if there's major physical abuse, you could make the case that divorce is. Excusable appropriate, but there's nowhere I can find in the scriptures in which God initiates a divorce, but rather says that he hates divorce. Moses gave us divorce because of our hardness of hearts.
Probably the only caveat I would give, and this is totally from a pastoral perspective, and you guys push back on me if you disagree, because I'm just, you know, thinking out loud here, I've seen an instance timer a time or two where I'm dealing with a. An individual who's like in a codependent marriage who's being physically abused, the husband's absent, sexually immoral, but the woman is emotionally codependent or doesn't feel that she has the strength to leave, even though she's literally being beaten up and is in danger.
And I think if that woman said to me like, I feel. A piece about divorce or I feel like God's even prompted me to leave. I don't know. I would probably say that biblically speaking, if you're in harm's way on a regular basis, that the idea of the image of God that you're created with value. I probably have some room for a place of, there's serious abuse harm here and I feel like God may be prompting me to leave.
Now. You could still delineate and maybe you should, between separation and divorce. I think as ministers sometimes I'm usually way faster to encourage separation and separate counseling and hey, let's take six months and breathe and talk and than I am to encourage a divorce. But does that make sense? Do you guys have any room for that?
And you're thinking of, there may be the spirit of the word prompting someone who's steadily abused to. To separate. Yeah. I think there's so much nuance in what you just said that I, I'm inclined to agree with what you're saying. I almost everything, when you put such a blanket statement like no, God never prompts divorce, it's dangerous because then you can think of the really interesting outlier situation.
Here's what we know to be true. That marriage is meant to reflect the relationship between Christ and his church and the relationship between Christ and His church is set up in such a way that marriage is to be this picture of ultimate knowing, ultimate forgiving, ultimate redemption. God's plan for everyone all the time is redemption over divorce all the time.
Now we find permissions like what you're saying, ke I think it's so great. We find permissions in the Old Testament. We actually find. One of the ways that, God, I think it's in Jeremiah, that God talks about Israel is Israel was begging for a divorce and so God gave Israel a certificate of divorce because he wanted it.
But then obviously through the story of Hosea and the redemption of the cross, he wince her back. But the ultimate idea is that God's plan is always redemption. Now you find a situation where someone is totally off the rails. I would say that's probably a little bit more inclined to believe in that that person is right.
It's like the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patient gonna transfer to judge self-control. We see that playing out. You would almost make the argument if someone's consistently abusive or neglectful or committing adultery, I would begin to question is there any regeneration in them whatsoever?
And in that case, there would be the permission given, which when the permission is there. It's still not God's ultimate thing. 'cause he, he wouldn't want that. Man in the first place. I'm assuming the guy's the one that's being abusive here, which perhaps that's not super fair. But his main thing would be that that guy would stop and that he would find Christ in those things.
But you do need to protect yourself and I think God is very consistent throughout the scriptures that we are martyrdom inside of a marital relationship when it comes to violence is not I. Part and parcel to demonstrating God's love for his people that doesn't sit there and get abused by them. And I would agree with you totally, Caleb, that I, I think there's room in my thinking for that as well, because for every time you make that broad statement, you find that particular situation where you go, this makes no sense for you to be here right now.
The word prompt is the only word that I would take beef with, which I think it's hard for you to deal with that word too, right? Like it's. Yeah, initiated, prompted is a hard word. Um, yeah. I think my, my, and you've probably seen this too in your ministry is every now and then you'll see a man who is so abusive, UNC Christ-like in no way, or their care for shepherding their wife and then they use the divorce is never appropriate as an excuse to continue in their abuse.
And that's the only time where I'm going. Like, no, there's permission if you're continually living sexually immoral, the woman doesn't have to, she's not required to receive that abuse over and over. So I think that that's my thing is sometimes it, I think you can weaponize the general statement. I. So, yeah, I agree totally with your perspective too.
Yeah, I would, I would say divorce as we understand it in scripture is a sin. So yeah, to say that God tells people to sin, that breaks a lot of theological paradigms of God does not tempt a sin, nor does he call us to sin. So now, but does he, in his wisdom and his comforter nature, say, you need to step away from this.
This person needs to get healthy. Yeah. I don't want you to go walk back into abuse. I think his. His ultimate objective, I think in all cases would still be that a time of separation would happen, that that person would go seek help and go seek that. But if the person obstinately goes, no, if you come back, I'm gonna hit you and if you leave, I'm not gonna get help.
Then I think that there's a sense in which the spirit of the Lord is saying, like, protect yourself, protect your family, your kids. Yeah. And make a better choice. Yeah. If kids are involved. You're right. So yeah, I think I've got room my thinking for that too, but I think in the question, if you're saying there's no physical abuse, there's no sex, I morality, we're.
On an upward trajectory of being clean and healthy, I would say no. Like you guys need to stay put and keep working towards restoration, which is Chris, what you're saying too. A hundred percent. Yeah. That this situation that was given is not one where if you think that God's telling you get divorced, that's bad pizza or that's something going on that's not, that's not the Holy Spirit telling you to do that.
The Lord does not call us to sin. He doesn't tempt us to sin. He doesn't prompt us to sin. The reconciliable differences, I think is probably more what you're talking about. Like it's just not very fun. It's not very this, right? When you look at the Old Testament relationship between God and his people, Israel, if there was such thing as irreconcilable differences, God would've.
Called that a long time ago. Like I can't, they're stiff neck, they're stubborn, they make golden idols, they do all this stuff, and yet God is faithful to his people and he sets up marriage as a representation of that. So when we look at it through that lens of what does God do with his people, then we would say, this is what we should be doing.
So this situation that was said, the answer is no. That that's not prompting divorce. Right. That's great. All right. Let's jump into this is, I think if I'm catching the name right, it's Brie San Diego. Hi, my name is Bree and I'm from San Diego. And the question that I have is given that the Bible says that there are, select a large group of people that when you pass away, you go, take apart from me before I never knew you.
And then also given that there are so many different denominations within our Christian Church that. Say that they have the correct analogy when it comes to the Bible and that every other denomination is, and just, I guess my question becomes is how do we as Christians know that God knows us and how do we know that we are following his will and we're not following what the.
Um, she just was alive. Yeah. So, Chris, would you mind just rephrasing that question? 'cause the audio, I think she was driving the car. The audio is a little bit, would you mind rephrasing the question and then answering it? The best thing? She really asks two separate questions. One is, what does assurance of salvation look like for the believer?
And the second one was with all the different denominations, how can any single denomination, you know, we're part of the Baptist General Conference here. I'm in, I'm in San Diego too, but there's 180 different expressions inside of Baptist Theology of what is going on. So I, I think there's two different questions there.
Let me give a, a brief answer for the first one, which is. The assurance of salvation question, I think it's important for us to recognize. Questions of concern about whether or not you're gonna spend eternity with Jesus and how you can know for sure and how you can be. These aren't really questions that non-believers ask.
There's not really a concern in their heart of whether or not they're going to be saved because I think Second Corinthians lays out like the gospel of crisis foolishness to those who are perishing. If you wanna spend your eternity with Christ and you're worried about whether or not you're going to do that, this is not the heart of the non-believer.
The heart of the non-believer is not concerned about whether or not I'm going to see Jesus or be with Jesus or want anything to do with Jesus. But the heart in its natural state is opposed. Uh, Romans five says it's an enemy of God and it spits out venom. Romans chapter three talks about no one writes.
It's not even one. So. The thing I always find interesting, 'cause a lot of students ask me this and I go like, what are you worried about? And they're like, well, I'm worried I'm not gonna go to heaven. I'm worried I'm not gonna be with Jesus. I'm worried that I'm not saved. I'm worried about these things.
And in most situations I just tell them, if this is really the concern of your heart, this is probably a really good sign. 'cause I don't think a lot of non-believers are sitting around going, am I gonna make it? I want make it. Who is Christ? Let me know. How can I know which denomination is right? Like.
Those are marks. I think some of the other marks we have in scripture are, they'll know that you're my disciples, by the way, that you love one another. Do you have a genuine desire to follow Christ? The Shema in the Old Testament? Love the Lord. You, God with your heart, soul, mind and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Are there signs of repentance in your life? Do you hate sin? Do you love the world? These are all things that would help us to recognize some of those, um, fruits of salvation in our life. And then the denomination one, I, Caleb, I'm. I'm guessing you agree with, I don't even know what denomination you are and I'm gonna sit on this podcast just, just straight up non-denominational man.
Yeah, charismatic. We're charismatic. Yeah. Ish. That, that kind of vein. Yeah. So we would consider ourselves brothers in Christ and say, we're gonna disagree on quite a few things in the. Secondary and tertiary things, but here's what Jesus says when he stands at Sea Sea Israel, Philippi. In the book of Mark particular, I'll talk about Matthew 16.
Matthew 16, whatever he says. Who do you say that I am? Peter responds, you're the Christ, the Son of living God. Jesus responds. Blessed are you Simon Barona because what you just said was not revealed by man, but revealed by God. And on this truth, I'm gonna build my church and the gates of hell will not stand against it.
If a church professes that Jesus is the Christ, he's the Messiah, and that by believing you may have life in his name, John 2031. I. We would consider those brothers. The five souls kind of ring true to me from the Protestant reformation by if you're saved by grace through faith in Christ revealed, through scriptural, alone, and to God's glory alone, we would consider that the brotherhood of believers.
Now, what you think about how much you should dunk someone in baptism or what you think about what's happening in communion in particular. Where the Bible isn't clear, we call that ARA or secondhand issues, and whether we disagree or when the world was young and everyone was a Christian, we found all these ways to divide into different denominations.
And now as the church has become a little bit more in the, it's generationally. Persecuted. I think what you're gonna find is churches doing the opposite, coming together under the banner of Christ and letting the secondary things. I can sit next to someone now who thinks something different is happening in certain categories of the nomination, and to not worry about it whatsoever because we all believe that we're equally saved.
So, Caleb, where am I wrong? Yeah, no, you're agree fully. I think I would throw the Apostles Creed in the, the doctors of the Trinity need to be there. The deity of Jesus, the authority of scripture, faith alone, and I think that's really big for us to communicate that with one another too. I think if I was in your city, I would probably be very quick to sign up to your church and fellowship in a Baptist community.
There's the idea that because there are so many denominations. We're in some way at odds, or that a believer can't fellowship with a Orthodox Methodist church and move to a new city and find themselves in a Baptist church. Yeah. There are secondary issues that we're gonna see things sometimes even like I maybe put a third category there of.
Not even that influential in your life that we might disagree on, but the, the primary, the top tier issues that are so precious to us, we're in full agreement on the delineation that we would draw, is like Mormonism gets the trinity wrong. That is their heretical movement. Um, Pentecostal oneness folks get the trinity wrong.
They're outside of Orthodox. Christianity. And so I would just say like if you're plugged into an Orthodox church and Apostles Creed is true to you and you love Jesus, define Jesus. Define a Caleb. Define Orthodox for a second. Just 'cause I've used that word before, and people go, wait a minute, Greek Orthodox, like they automatically assume Orthodox, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Orthodox meaning that your doctrine is the historic traditional, it's the same idea with Catholic, right? You do the Apostles creed and people get frustrated if you use the term Catholic. Where Catholic means universal, it has a definition. It's not just a a body or a religious movement.
So Orthodox, we don't mean Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox. When I say orthodox, I mean faithful, historic, consistent with what the Bible teaches and their early fathers believed understanding that even the early fathers had major disagreements on secondary issues. But as regards to the deity of Jesus, like.
Jesus was Lord. Period. Does that clear that up, Chris? Yeah, for sure. What if they're part of a church that is saying, so they believe all the things that you both have laid out, like, Hey, this is the orthodoxy that we believe that we agree to the, with the historical way that the early church has always done follow Jesus, but they are saying.
You know, our Baptist brothers down the road, they're not Christians or our Pentecost brothers down the road, or charisma, you know, like whatever the, the Lutherans, they're not in for sure. Like what if they're part of a church that agrees? All those things, but then they're kind of saying that the church down the road isn't, as a member of that church, what do you do?
I think that division is sucky. If I could use that language, I think that that pride and that arrogance that is not willing to have categories of here's the top tier issues that make a Christian. And here's, uh, oh, shoot. I was thinking about, oh, we were talking about eschatology earlier and there've been so many moves where, or groups of people who would say, if you don't ascribe to pre-trib, pre-millennial, like our particular eschatology, then you're not a real Christian.
And it's like, man, so much of church history didn't ascribe to that particular eschatology. It could be, right? I'm not saying it's not. But that is such a divisive, kind of ignorant posture to not be willing to acknowledge that there are categories of, here are the foundational beliefs, the apostles creed, that again, I would say five souls to the scripture alone as, or like those categories versus my eschatology, or whether or not women should preach or mode of baptism.
I think that's divisive and maybe it's too strong to say like. That's as much of a a danger as anything else. Like that's a weird place to be in your heart to constantly be trying to nitpick everyone else on secondary third peer issues. Is that fair? I don't wanna be too harsh, but I'm not a fan of that.
I think that's really unhelpful. I. No, it's totally fair. I think what's totally fair about it is I always do this. I teach a systematic theology class, and so on part of it, we start walking about, we start talking about predestination versus free will. I try to argue both sides. I try to, I play Spurgeon, right, and I argue double predestination, and I walk through it and I become Spurgeon.
I. I can't become Spurgeon. You understand? But I'm like, you're not fat. Yeah, that's right. I couldn't, I couldn't be Spurgeon. And so I, I argue for it and I show the passages and everything, and then I jump over and I play Luther and I argue against it. And I said, when you decide you're gonna be one of those things, or you're gonna take a side on one of those issues.
I want you to walk into a room with all the historical fathers and all the heroes of faith and all the whatever, and put a blindfold on. And then if you're more hyper reform, go to the right. And if you're arminian, go to the left and then you're gonna take off your blindfold and look at just your side of the room and you're gonna feel really good about yourself, right?
Because if you walk reformed, you're gonna go. Oh, sweet. Here's Calvin, here's Spurgeon, here's Sproul. Here's theological giants. Yes. Until someone asks you to turn around. And then as you turn around, you look across the room and you see the other half of the church fathers and Luther and all these other people sitting there going, wait a minute.
That's when you have that moment of concern where you go, oh no, you know, you feel good until you realize that there's great heroes of faith that are. They're, they're not watering down scripture. They're not theologically wayward, but they just disagree with it. So when you see that there's gotta be a humility there that goes, right, shoot, I can put my stake in the ground somewhere, but my stake better be movable.
I don't know how many times in my life my eschatology has changed to a point where now I'm kinda like, here's my opinion and I don't really know what it is. In theology, we call 'em closed handed issues. That's the apostle's creed. It's the deity of Christ. It's the, the, the truth of the scripture, the ancy of scriptures, that open-handed issues, you know, like the secondary issues where it's like, this is how you baptize someone.
I can stand next to someone. And then there's like open fingered, open-handed issues, which is like, should we have drums in church? Who cares? Right, right. Yeah. Here's here, so. I agree with you totally. If your theology, though, is teaching you that other brothers are not saved, then what does that say about what salvation means to you?
And if some issues, and this is maybe a controversial thing, so I'm okay with this being a problem, but if you're saying. That certain issues belong in a non salvific category, or you're believing that non-self issues believe in a salvific category. Salvific means it changes your salvation. I think both of those things are really dangerous, right?
Like if you go, oh, you can believe the Bible is not the word of God, or, right. You can believe that Mary is one with God and divine. Both of those things are kind of like, I don't think you're taking the scripture as seriously as you really should. So I would question both. That's really good sides of those ideas.
That's That's really good. I'm reminded of that, uh, I think I'm gonna get this story right. I think Whitfield died first and that, am I right? And Wesley did Whitfield's funeral and said that he wouldn't see Whitfield in heaven. And then he said, because he'll be so close to the throne, essentially, Wesley acknowledging that like Whitfield was such a faithful.
And Whitfield was like a fiery preacher, faithful man of God. Um, where they had fought for so many years about Calvinism Arminianism. At the end of their lives, Wesley going like, nah, Whitfield's gonna be really close to the throne. I think that humility that he so good approached later in his life is huge.
Beautiful. If you have a question as a listener, 5 0 3 8 7 7 3 8 3 6. Again, (503) 877-3836. Just call in and uh, leave a message as the others have, and we'll try to get to more of these. I'm gonna do one last one here. Shannon, it's gonna feel like a hard question for us to answer 'cause we are a bunch of dudes.
But this is a question from a wife. I think she would, if she could start a ministry, it sounds like she would call it like wife tired or maybe mom tired. But, uh, let's listen to her question. Hi, my name is Shannon. I'm in Arizona, and my question is, how can I as a wife better respect and support my husband when I am touched out and tired from being a stay at home mom to three kids all day?
'cause I'm really looking for an answer to that because I definitely need to know. So thank you. Bye bye. Just the desperation in Shan's voice, I feel for, I feel it too, man, mom. But, uh, you know, I had never heard the, the phrase touched out until I got married and my wife told me that one day. I'm like, that doesn't even make sense to me.
I can never, as a man be, uh, touched out. You can touch me as much as you want. But apparently for moms, they feel that kids just all over 'em all day and then husband gets home and. From my interpretation of the question is just, I'm just exhausted and I feel like I have very little left in the take to be a wife.
So as a bunch of dudes, why want give some perspective on what you would say to Shannon. Chris, it's you, man. I would say that, and this is so hard, Shannon, I'm here for you, sis. You guys know my story, but overnight I found out that my wife had passed away in July of 2021. And so you wake up the next morning and you're a singled out of five kids and you don't get to sit and grieve really as you'd like to, 'cause you still gotta make pancakes.
You still gotta walk through that stuff. So. It's not that. I don't recognize that. And so I, I hope you can hear the, the deep part of that. And so you're asking two sided question, an emotional response, and then a biblical response. And my emotional response to you is, hang in there sis. Right? Like, I, I love the phrase that the days are long, but the years are short.
And you're doing a great work. I love that Nehemiah talks about that. He's up on the wall and sand ballot wants to come and kill him, and tells him to come off the wall. And Nehemiah says, I cannot come down. I'm doing a great work. It's only for a period of time. I just wanna encourage you. Keep it up.
Here's my theological response. I'm, I apologize if this is more cold and unfeeling, but I think this is the freedom that that Christianity gives us. Christianity separates the idea, which I think is, so if I were to write a book, it would be about this idea that the world begins with the affection. What do I wanna do?
And then it moves to the behavior. Therefore, I'm gonna do X, Y, or Z 'cause I feel like I wanna do it. After that, then it goes to the mind. How do I feel about what I just did? And then it goes through identity. Well, here's what I wanted. Here's what I did, here's what I think about it. And so I guess I'm this kind of a person, and Christianity kind of flips that whole, that train on its head and it goes backwards.
It begins with identity. Who am I? And then because of that, what does the Bible say? That's my mind. Then I surrender that and go, what does the Bible think about what I'm feeling or about my identity? Then it informs my behavior. And then after I perform that behavior over and over again, I actually watch my affections towards that thing change.
So here's the way that I want to help answer this question is. The beauty of the Christian freedom is unlike contra modern secularism, which is do whatever you want and do exactly what you feel. The Bible seems to give a lot of credence for the position of doing things that we don't feel like doing, that the volition is actually more powerful than the desire, and that there are so many times in the life of a believer.
Where inside you are screaming and crying and hurt and wanting to just tap out, and yet the perseverance of continuing on it is a beautiful act of worship and a beautiful act of surrender even in that moment. So, and the scripture says this, when we come into Christ, he does not give us a spirit, ofit and fear any longer, but of power, love, and self-control.
And for every temptation that we've experienced, he's also given us a way out and power inside of it to execute exactly what he's called us to do. So what I know because I trust the scripture so deeply, is that you are not subject to those emotions in that moment. You do not have to scream at someone.
You don't have to do that, but sometimes doesn't just feel like that. It feels like, well, this is the only rational thing to do. The Christian freedom comes along and says, yeah, for sure, sis. That's exactly how you feel sometimes. Respect is just doing what you feel like not doing because you know that it's right, even though all of your emotions and affections take you a different direction.
And I think Neil Ericks, he writes a book called Love and Respect, which I think is a really powerful book for any married couple. That the idea of respect is so interesting because we separate it from the idea of love. But when you read Ephesians chapter five and it says. Husbands, love your wives as Christ love the church and women.
Respect your husbands for this is right in the Lord for whatever reason. Respect is a conditional thing, and love is always an unconditional thing. Although when he puts 'em with each other, they both seem to be unconditional, that your husband is worthy of respect because of his position in Christ and because of how does Ephesians five start submit to one another out of reverence for Christ?
That word for reverence means indebtedness. Because of what you owe Jesus. Jesus has passed on the weight and debt that he has earned in salvation to your husband and said, from here on out, your husband is going to be respected in any and all situations because you deserve to love and respect me as your savior.
I wanna give that to Christ and you're gonna respect him in the same way. So if I'm counseling a couple who's going through a hard thing, I taught a premarital class last night, or whatever it is, you'll often hear the woman say. Well, I'll respect my husband when he is earned it, but you will never hear or allow in our culture to have the opposite be said.
We'll all love her when she's earned it, or I'll love her when she deserves it. And so we've kind of set these things at odds when, because of the, the debt indebtedness to Christ, we are called to in all situations earned or not respect our husbands. So maybe sometimes it's just that biblical. Pursuit of jumping over that last hill and going, I'm not respecting him 'cause he is earned it.
I'm not respecting him because I feel like it. I'm respecting him because the Lord saved me. And in that reverence, I'm gonna do what I don't feel like doing because this is my act of worship today. Romans chapter 12, submit. Do not conform to the patterns of this world. What's the pattern of this world? I do what I feel like doing, but instead be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
The metanoia, the repentance of your mind that then you can test and approve what God's will is his good pleasing, imperfect will. So it starts in the mind and it starts with the mindset change of I don't have to wait till he's earned my respect to respect him and I don't have to do what I feel like doing because through Christ and His Holy Spirit, I can overcome the desire and move to volition and will and do what I don't feel like doing.
So I dunno. Caleb, what do you think? Yeah, no, I think all that's good. One of the things that I talk about some in I. What I'm doing like marriage counseling, premarital counseling, is I think that. And I don't have a real strong biblical argument for this. Maybe Ephesians five I could build it, but I think there's some sense in which the, the husband and the wife are kind of the first line of like pastoral care for one another.
Shepherding, we wouldn't use that language per se, but the idea that if my wife is suffering, struggling, tired, worn out, like I have a responsibility to care for her soul, to care for her emotional life, to care for her physical body. And, um, I would say the same for wives and I think the stuff that my wife does for me that's so helpful is, you know, saying like, dude, do you look tired?
Like you do you need to get away for a couple days and just pray, making time for one another to, to be at a church or to be at prayer nights, or to go to men's groups or, I think in general, like very zoomed out view, I think you have this responsibility to care for your spouse and that includes their spiritual life.
I think that a lot of our issues sometimes. We're way down the line dealing with the fact that we're moody and that we are biting at each other's heads off. But if we would back up, we would probably find that we're not really rested in Christ. We haven't had quality time in the presence of the Lord. We haven't given ourselves to the scripture in the way that we feel called to.
And so a lot of times, like that shepherding of my wife is just ensuring that. She has the space to have a healthy connection to the vine, to Jesus. And um, so I would, the only thing I would say is like, number one, having, we all have a lot of kids, right? Having a lot of kids is hard. And there's a sense in which like, you gotta just laugh at yourself and chill out sometimes.
And if the house isn't perfect, whatever. So sometimes I think take a deep breath and like, you're not gonna be perfect. It's fine. Uh, laugh at your kids. But on the other side, I would say don't neglect your duty to shepherd your husband's life to help pass, obviously the husband is the, the head of the home, the chief shepherd, but you're definitely the, the help mate, the given by God to help him in longevity and to be healthy and whole.
And so I wouldn't necessarily start at the bottom either of like, here are all the things we're doing wrong. Here are all the manifestations of the fact that we are worn out a lot of, I just imagine, at least for me, having a lot of kids and we're young, we're not rolling in money, so we're stressed, we're worn out to jump to you gotta stop biting my head up all the time, or I need to speak to you and more honoring tone.
I think what Chris is saying is true, like back up and, and start with are our souls resting in Christ right now and have we really made the time and space to rest in Christ? And I think if you care for one another's souls in that way, a lot of times everything kind of flows downstream from there. And then you can flow towards the healthy fruit that's only coming because of the, the connection with Jesus.
Does that make sense guys? Is that, I don't wanna over beat the point that you shepherd your spouse, but in a sense you have a responsibility to. Really care for, for me that so many times I have to ask myself, do I actually believe what the text is telling me? Like, do I actually believe, you know, it's, it's a really interesting question to ask someone, like, especially a Christian, like, do you believe God is real?
Like, do you believe he's the provider? Do you believe? And and when he says in scripture, right, like Galatians six, like let us not get tired of doing what's right. 'cause if we do what's right and we continue on, we don't get discouraged and we don't give up, we're gonna reap a harvest. Which I think you're talking about a little bit there, Caleb too, but.
You've never heard someone call a marathon difficult. No one that, like, no marathon. You can have like a, like the San Diego, there's like a rock and roll San Diego marathon or like the whatever marathon, but no one's ever like the difficult marathon because it's implied in it. I think just given yourself permission to go, like to remind yourself and I've gotta.
I remarried six months ago, and my wife's name's Carolyn, and as I'm talking to her, sometimes at the end of the night she'll be like crying and upset and everything because all this, that, and the kids are rebelling and everything, and I'm reminding her of these truths. Kids are little, tiny, rebellious sinners and parenting is not a work for cowards.
This season's gonna pass and we are being sanctified every single day. Sometimes just the mindset shift of. What is God teaching me in this? Where can I grow in this? And I love that. Romans 12 passage of just every. Real change. When you're talking about how do I do this? It begins in the mind. It begins with renewing of your mind.
Sometimes I, I love how one theologian puts it as Christians. It's not about us doing less bad things. It's about us believing less false things. And so sometimes what I find myself, I. Just ready to like, give it and, and tuck her out and everything. What you said Caleb was important. I almost have to stop and go, like, I'm probably believing a lie somewhere in here.
I'm maybe believing the lie that this was supposed to be simple. I'm believing the lie that my husband doesn't do enough for me, especially if he gets home from work. I remember the, the culture wars beginning in marriage with my late wife Paige, of me getting home and going, I was just at work all day.
And you were here just with the kids doing nothing, right? Like what were you, were you just napping all day with all three of these kids down here? We've got five now, but at the time before I realized this, and then she was going, oh, you're at work hanging out with all your buddies, planning a sermon and your next dodge ball night like, and so some of it starts with just this deep respect of like, when my wife is home with the kids.
She's doing a great work and the only reason that I get to do what I get to do is 'cause she gets to do. And so I think a lot of it starts with just the animosity that we can feel towards the other party who's doing what we don't do. But because they don't see what we're doing, we go like how you're doing the lesser job.
What's funny in marriages? And when you ask who has the harder, more difficult task, both parties raise their hand almost every time. So mindset shift of going, I only get to do because of what you do. I think sometimes that can be the start of of changing the respect idea of, you know, I've been home with three kids all day and he was just at his job.
You know, sometimes it's going like, Lord, thanks for the gift of providence through what you've given to him. And sometimes that thankfulness can regenerate a marriage that seems like it's on the fritz, just changing the mindset towards thankfulness. Can I ask a dumb question? Is this question about sex?
Is she trying to sell fiance? So, I was gonna jump in. I, I don't know if I'm reading this question right. I was gonna jump in here. And is that the way you understood it, Chris? No, I think that's what she's said. I dunno what the word untouched means. I, I didn't know either until Jared said it. I didn't get it at all when she, when she used the word, I'm touched out, this is what, this is where my mind went and you guys gave such great theological.
Why don't you interrupt earlier, man. I was like, I think we're missing it, but I don't know if we're missing this. This here. Here's where my quoting Romans 12. Why don't you chip in earlier there, Jared, you guys gave a lot of great thought. I'm just gonna give my 2 cents. You know, here's what I think. I think that when she sat on touch, but I'm out.
I think that I'm making assumptions here. I don't know Shannon from Arizona. I don't know her husband. But I imagine her husband gets home and he just wants to do some stuff with his wife that he's been looking forward to all day. I had a friend tell me recently that he said that he's, he sends his wife calendar invites for just the good old times.
I'm like, that funny. That's brilliant. Might be stealing that this week. I even told Layla that. I'm like, do you mind if I send you some calendar invites? Because I am married to a woman who is an introvert and she's homeschooling. Four kids all day, and I've heard her use the words, I'm just touched that it's not on you.
It's not that I'm not attracted to you or I don't wanna be intimate with you or physical with you or whatever. I'm literally just exhausted. And so I think just a real practical thing here would just be like if Shannon sent a a calendar invite with, what's that little like the woman emoji in the red dress?
That's. I, I could think of other emojis, but I don't want to get to inappropriate here. But if she just sent a calendar invite with just an emoji in it that is symbolic, I have a feeling her husband's gonna be stoked. And then it might just have some clear expectations there, like, oh, on Tuesday we have something to look forward to, and we can just both in the midst of this crazy life season, know that we're still trying to pursue each other.
Chris, when you were, when you were talking about the idea of identity and then flows into flowing towards the action, right, rather than the opposite. I thought you were arguing the whole time that because her identity's in Christ and she should care for her husband, therefore she should just have sex if she doesn't want to.
Like that's where the logic I thought you were going to, which there's some biblical argument of like not withholding your body. I thought that's where you were headed. That would be like, you are like, that actually does apply. It would totally apply, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I mean, I, I taught this our last night at premarital counseling with our couples here last night and it was on sex, and so that was a transformative idea in my head that I think so many couples now around us are practicing.
Which is the notion of like, man, this almost needs a whole other podcast because it's goes so deep. But yeah, I think I, yeah, so I'm not gonna get into all of it, but I would say on a surface level, you begin with your identity. If I'm in Christ, then I first ask, what does the Bible say about respecting my husband when I'm touched out?
And I think when you dive into that, you're gonna find something very counter-cultural, which is the notion of. Your husband has one outlet of God honoring sexual expression, and when we say I'm all touched out, we're also asking him to do something that the scripture says is very, very dangerous, which is when the scripture talks about sexual immorality in scripture, it doesn't say hold firm.
It doesn't say. Hold steadfast. It doesn't stay. Give it a shot and stay away from it. Don't dip your toe in the pool. It says run. So the Bible seems to give a lot of credence to the sexual desire. So much so that Paul says if you are burning with less for one another, it's better that you get married than for you to fall into sin.
So I would say. There's, yeah, this probably deserves its whole own thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, because it took me a lot longer to explain this. I'm 45 minutes of a premarital counseling class, but in a very brief way, I think looking at it in terms of what do I want, you know, or, or for sometimes in our marriage, it's even lopsided, where sometimes she's a little bit more, her libido's a little bit higher, she's a little bit more desirous, and then other times it's mine.
And so we have to match each other in some of those terms. And so I would say there's, there's a sense in which it's difficult to have someone go, Hey, babe, I'm, I'm here. I'm riled up. I'm ready for whatever. And then to get like a, sorry, I can't because that, that's still there, but I don't have any pornography.
Inappropriate masturbations inappropriate, right? Extra extramarital affairs. Inappropriate, uh, prostitution's obviously inappropriate. They all fall outside of the bounds. And so you're basically saying what scripture has for thousands of years said, you need to get rid of this idea. You need to run away from it.
You need these things in a marital context when you're my only sexual outlet that is God honoring, what is that next step of what you want me to do? But it's just so counter-cultural that it's almost difficult to teach that in this day and age. Yeah. But those who have kind of adopted that, I think they've found a lot of freedom in it.
Yeah. And I think that, at least for me in our marriage context, I will say something like. Hey, I need some attention at some point and on your schedule. And so it's not always, I don't think it's fair as husbands to say like, I'm home now and we're doing it. But I do think you can say like, I get your worn out, but you know, put me on your list somewhere.
Like, and then I think for the female too, make sure that happens within the next 24 hours, 48 hours max is huge. But I don't think the expectation can be for men to be able to walk in the, you know, slam the door and say. Tell the kids we're having a talk 'cause we're going, you know what I'm saying? For sure.
Yeah. I, I think that put me on your list is my language. Put me on the menu at some point. Yeah. So there's grace. We use, I guess all need to say there's grace. Yeah. We use the phrase like, if I make a sexual bid towards you and you say no, then say no with an appointment. Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. A sexual bid could be a, a sexual touch, it could be a suggestion, it could be an emoji, you know, and it's like, it's, yes.
And if it has to be, no, it's like not right now, but. Tonight, or whatever it is. So that's, that's been an effective way of us. Yeah. So like I said, it needs its own discussion and it is what it is. But now that I know what touched out means. Yeah. I was like, I think we're, I think we're dancing around this one a little bit, but I Dang.
I think we got to it. I think we got to it. You know, I'm, I'm imagining that there's probably now all kinds of more follow up questions that people have. So again, 5 0 3, 8, 7, 7, 3, 8, 3, 6, 5, 0 3, 8, 7, 7, just. Save that into your phone as a dad tired. Question number that you can call and ask your question. Five oh three eight seven seven.
3, 8, 3 6. Guys, this was really fun for me. I hope it's fun for you. Thank you for taking the time to do this and I'm hoping that we can do this more. Appreciate it.