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A podcast that spotlights the women reshaping the hospitality industry, breaking barriers, and carving their paths in the ever-evolving world of restaurants, food, and community.
Sara (00:36)
Today I am talking with the incredible, award-winning, highly regarded Dana Cowin She is an editor, an author, and a convener who propels change through food and joy. She is the founder of the Progressive Hedonist Movement, which I have been following and I've been really captivated by in the last few years, especially as this issue of climate change becomes more and more.
Daunting and insurmountable. Dana has such an incredible approach to integrating really approachable practices into your day-to-day life that definitely make a difference, but they also make a difference for you in the quality of your life. Dana launched Progressive Hedonist as a national event series to build resilience, support local food, reduce food waste.
And deepened commitments to healing the planet through joyful gatherings. She is very into joy. I am very into joy. So we definitely connect on that front. Before her progressive hedonist era, she was the editor-in-chief of Food and Wine magazine for more than 20 years, leading all aspects of that
including print, digital, books. She has written extensively on food and culture, including a cookbook.
She has been a judge on Top Chef. She has been a judge on Beat Bobby Flay, a speaker at South by Southwest, the Welcome Conference, TEDx, you name it. She is so cool. She has such a great story to tell. And I am just so honored that she agreed to spend some time with me. Thank you, Dana. So please enjoy my conversation with Dana Cowin.
Sara Abernethy (02:26)
See ya!
Dana Cowin (02:29)
How are you?
Sara Abernethy (02:30)
I'm great, how are you?
Dana Cowin (02:32)
I'm good, I'm just turning off my...
Hi. I'm at home.
Sara Abernethy (02:36)
Are you at home?
I love your pink lamp. I have a pink lamp too.
Dana Cowin (02:44)
I'm obsessed with my crazy lamps.
Sara Abernethy (02:48)
Do you have more than one crazy lamp? so good.
Dana Cowin (02:50)
Well, there's a pair of them and
I found them on an auction site. had them delivered, but the delivery like cracked the base. So they're very janky, but I love them entirely.
Sara Abernethy (03:07)
I love a funky lamp. I've actually, I've had a very good time styling this situation back here.
Dana Cowin (03:13)
Yes, what you see behind you.
Sara Abernethy (03:16)
Yes, it's been fun. I have taken over, this room in our house has like a sliding door and there's no closet. So it's like not really a bedroom, but the house kind of lives like it is a bedroom, I guess. I've just.
Dana Cowin (03:28)
Hahaha
Sara Abernethy (03:29)
I've taken it over unapologetically and it's just like, it's a very feminine space. There's, you know.
Dana Cowin (03:35)
so pretty. beautiful outside.
Well, we're not quite there yet in the Northeast.
Sara Abernethy (03:40)
How
is it in New York today? really?
Dana Cowin (03:42)
super chilly, but the
forsythia are blooming. They're growing, they're sprouting, they're yellow. I mean, it's very, very pretty, but we need some green
on the trees.
Sara Abernethy (03:52)
but
Dana Cowin (03:53)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (03:54)
What's
so funny? Because it's so green here.
Dana Cowin (03:59)
I can't wait till I get to that amount of green.
Sara Abernethy (04:02)
Yeah. Well, welcome, here we are.
it's so nice to see your face. Thank you so much, Dana. Thank
Dana Cowin (04:07)
It's so much easier.
Sara Abernethy (04:09)
you so much for making the time to do this.
Dana Cowin (04:12)
Of course.
Sara Abernethy (04:13)
So kind of you. So yeah, this is the point where I'm like, what do I say now? Because I'm still learning how to do this myself. This is a new, this is a new-ish endeavor for me. I feel like you and I are similar in that I just have
a lot of content creative ideas around
Dana Cowin (04:32)
Uh-huh.
Sara Abernethy (04:33)
personal ethos and mission statement.
And this is something that I tried on last year when I was super, super pregnant and I knew
Dana Cowin (04:40)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (04:41)
that at some point during my maternity leave, I was gonna be bouncing off the walls without some kind of creative project.
Dana Cowin (04:50)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (04:51)
So I just like, let me just record five and try it on and that'll be fun. And
Dana Cowin (04:56)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (04:56)
then we'll see where it takes us.
but I am committed to fulfilling this season with 20 interviews. I know, I know.
Dana Cowin (05:04)
That's a lot. Congrats.
Sara Abernethy (05:06)
But really, I'm so close. I'm almost there. And then at the end of the year, I'll just see how it feels. See.
Dana Cowin (05:14)
one
step at a time.
Sara Abernethy (05:17)
one step at a time.
And there you have it.
Dana Cowin (05:18)
It is,
I mean, just having conversations and sharing them. I loved when I was doing the podcast, which I'm not at the moment, but yeah, such a good excuse to go a little bit deeper and to bring people a new perspective. I applaud you for doing 20 and seeing how it feels.
Sara Abernethy (05:38)
Say how it feels. Well, thank you. Also, an excuse to catch up with people that you like.
Dana Cowin (05:43)
Exactly.
Sara Abernethy (05:44)
I want to talk to. How long have you been a New Yorker? Are you from that area?
Dana Cowin (05:49)
Born bred my whole life.
Sara Abernethy (05:50)
that, mean, I, do you know that I lived there for a moment?
Dana Cowin (05:55)
Now how long was your moment? And when was your moment?
Sara Abernethy (05:57)
It was very short. The moment in your 20s, your early 20s when you're like, I'm going to the big city and I'm gonna be a star. So it was like 2011,
Dana Cowin (06:09)
Okay.
Sara Abernethy (06:09)
the early 2010s, I went there to pursue singing in theater and I'm so grateful that I had that experience because even though it didn't necessarily unfold in the way that my 22 year old brain thought that it would,
It was so invaluable and such a good time.
Dana Cowin (06:28)
because you got it out of your system
or because you got this great experience or.
Sara Abernethy (06:33)
Yes, and yes, and and and I found myself I that sounds so trite and corny, but I really found myself I so proud that I mean, I moved up there alone. Like I came off the train at Penn Station like a comic book strip with my like two suitcases. You know, I
Dana Cowin (06:54)
Did a place to live? Did you have friends?
Sara Abernethy (06:56)
had a friend. Yeah, I had I had a couple friends.
Dana Cowin (06:59)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (06:59)
and
I went straight from Penn Station into the Brother Jimmy's Restaurant location that's not there anymore on Eighth Avenue
Dana Cowin (07:05)
Okay.
Sara Abernethy (07:05)
by Madison Square Garden, where my friend was a waitress. They hired me as a hostess. She gave me the key to her apartment and...
Dana Cowin (07:14)
This is such a great New York story. It is the New York story, right? The men who get such a good job and... yeah.
Sara Abernethy (07:15)
I know it is it and like that
was that. And then I eventually truly got 100 % ejected from the city all at one time and it was okay because I was meant to move to Southern California and I was sent there to go meet my now husband.
Dana Cowin (07:35)
It's good to believe in the universe.
Sara Abernethy (07:37)
Yes, yes. So I too am back home in Raleigh where I grew up and was born and raised. Do you remember when you really started your relationship with food in like a real conscious way?
Dana Cowin (07:51)
It's really easy to pinpoint because I didn't care a whole lot about food growing up. And I didn't have anyone in my family who cooked. Restaurants really weren't such a thing. And we would go to a French restaurant for a very special occasion, someone's birthday. So the day that I started caring about food is the day that I started writing a proposal to take over Food My Magazine. That was it. I'm like,
Sara Abernethy (08:13)
Really?
Dana Cowin (08:14)
I guess I better really learn something about food now. And the education
began 1994 and then hasn't stopped since, but easy to reflect.
Sara Abernethy (08:26)
I'm sure,
I'm sure. And all of the lessons you've learned in that time since you.
started that process. For those that don't know Dana or are getting introduced to Dana, she really is like an OG baddie in the world of publishing and media. She's been employed at Vogue, she's had a turn at HG, and perhaps most famously oversaw Food and Wine magazine for quite some time, and has retired from the world of formal publishing, but still pursuing media, journalism, and advocacy in the world of food.
Dana Cowin (09:04)
Yeah, I hate the word retired. don't think,
Sara Abernethy (09:06)
Okay.
Dana Cowin (09:06)
I'm not sure what that word means, but I certainly ditched the world of magazines and media thinking that they were imploding. And I would have to say I was...
a little ahead of my time in that like, know, magazines still exist. There's new indie magazines that are super fun and interesting to look at and journalism shifted and changed. But the type of journalism that I wanted to do, which was lifestyle journalism, really lost my interest. I just felt like,
Sara Abernethy (09:41)
Really?
Dana Cowin (09:42)
yeah, I'd been doing the same. I was at Food & Wine for 20 plus years.
around the central thesis about bringing new ideas to the audience in order to expand their tastes or travel, what they knew about wine, and just bringing pure pleasure. And there's only so many ways to do that. And at the end of the day, it's also quite limited because if you're really focused on
that the joy of that process and because of the format you're really not investigating any of the other outcomes like, well, so if we are growing things in a bad way, what does that mean? Like, so going back from the plate a little bit deeper.
I knew that there was more that I wanted to do and I wasn't sure what it was. I knew I wanted to leave. I also left in my mid-50s and I was like, if I don't leave now, no one's gonna hire me. I'm not gonna get a second job or a second career. And so I found a job to leave for.
which is a little bit like jumping out a window and knowing you're gonna land on broken glass. I'm like, it's not the perfect job, but I just really wanna get out of here. And what's great about landing on broken glass is that when you get up and brush yourself off, you're like, anything from here is amazing. And so I have spent the last...
I spent five years doing coaching women in hospitality staying close to the world of food, and did a zine and some investing and some events. All...
sort
of taking the model of what Food and Wine was, because Food and Wine was an editorial product, but we did
Sara Abernethy (11:30)
Mm-hmm.
Dana Cowin (11:31)
events and we did, you there were all kinds of aspects to that. And so instead of having a publication be the center, there was an idea at the center, which is how can I help in this world of women in hospitality? People realize their dreams and get over the challenges and like find new success, which is also a journey that I was on, because I was...
changing my life and then I switched my focus.
away from women in hospitality, because what I recognized was there's amazing people like Randi at Fab who are building a beautiful community of extraordinary women in hospitality or sisterly love in Philadelphia and people all over the country, the abundance setting in Chicago. And I would go into events with these amazing women's group and I'm like, I'm so happy to be here, but you guys kind of got this.
Sara Abernethy (12:29)
Yeah.
Dana Cowin (12:30)
And so focused
Sara Abernethy (12:30)
Yeah.
Dana Cowin (12:31)
on something that I felt had more room to grow, which is the area that's the intersection of lifestyle and small changes that we can make to improve the future of the planet and the future of communities and our own futures.
Sara Abernethy (12:48)
Do you feel like right now you get to incorporate projects, commitments, and creations that resonate with you in sort of a beautiful swirl? Like you get to do.
Dana Cowin (13:06)
I feel so, so lucky because doing Progressive Hedonist means I'm co-hosting events all around the country that are based on the three pillars, is building resilience, reducing waste, including plastic, and investing in better ingredients that are better for us and better for the planet.
Sara Abernethy (13:29)
I have them written down right here. P3 principles. So let's get
Dana Cowin (13:30)
Woohoo! Yes. do your principles
Sara Abernethy (13:34)
into it. Yes, let's get into Progressive Hedonist, because obviously that's where we're going anyway. That's the end game here
Dana Cowin (13:39)
I'm
Sara Abernethy (13:40)
for our conversation, because it's just such a very cool movement and ethos. And it has grasped me by the heart, Dana, ever since
Dana Cowin (13:50)
Let's go.
Sara Abernethy (13:51)
I met you. I really loved this idea of a
progressive hedonist potluck, but what I really loved about the message you were spreading is the fact that incremental change at home, like millimeters worth of change that people can make in their everyday life is important. It does matter because it is so easy.
to look at this issue of climate change and want to go lay down in oncoming traffic and just be like, all right, I give up. It's fucked anyway.
Dana Cowin (14:27)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (14:29)
And it has really adjusted how I've looked at at least my own household, not
Dana Cowin (14:35)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Abernethy (14:36)
to mention our restaurant. that is sort of like, it's definitely a different animal that's hard to control in a number of ways. But at home,
Dana Cowin (14:41)
Yeah, hard.
Sara Abernethy (14:44)
it really does make me feel
hopeful and empowered and nourished at the same time. So how did progressive hedonist come to you?
Dana Cowin (14:54)
I was trying to figure out after that speaking broadly time, what is it that I could do that felt like there was a greater need and a greater opportunity to impact what I saw as like the greatest challenge of the future. And now...
with the world as it is.
Sara Abernethy (15:14)
the world.
Dana Cowin (15:14)
The world, I feel like there's so many challenges, but it does come back to always, we will need to eat, we will need water, we will need clean air, and that brings us back, yes, to climate change, but really how we treat our environment and nature.
learning that food, depending on who you ask and what the metric is, is responsible for 30 % of greenhouse gases. It sort of blows your mind to recognize.
Sara Abernethy (15:48)
It does blow the mind. And let me repeat this again, because it's so staggering. Almost roughly 30 % of greenhouse gas emissions come from food systems, agricultural systems, the way we use land, the way we use the ocean, the way we don't tend to those things. It's staggering. And then the other statistic that I'm sure you're going to say in a moment is a billion meals go to waste in the trash.
Dana Cowin (16:16)
Right. Yep.
And that's globally, globally, right? So.
Sara Abernethy (16:19)
Probably.
Dana Cowin (16:20)
40 % of our food gets wasted. And what is really fascinating to me is a lot of that waste is from the home refrigerator. You're like, what? I mean, it is also crops that are plowed under and it's also what grocery stores throw out. I mean, it's many, many, many things. But the fact that if you just paid better attention to what you are buying, which would save you money, and then what was about to spoil, you could actually have an impact on the environment
and your pocketbook, and I find it really fun. I find the challenge of what to do with things that are just on the edge in my refrigerator quite delightful.
Sara Abernethy (17:02)
It's like a Tetris board.
Dana Cowin (17:05)
It really is, and I've been doing a lot of events that are focused on no waste. Every event that I do has a slightly different focus, but I did one on Monday, and it was called Bad Habits Make Good Meals. And the bad habit is, you you buy all this stuff with so much optimism, you put it in your refrigerator or your pantry, and you kind of forget about it, and you look back, you're like, ugh.
I
really have to throw that thing out. Bad habit, buying too much of a thing that you don't know how you're gonna use or when you're going to use. I'm really guilty of that, most particularly in lettuce. Like, lettuce talks to me and like grabs me by the lapels and is like, buy me, I'm beautiful, yes. And so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna buy you and I'm gonna, this time I just have to, that and cilantro and parsley. I buy them just knowing that I really need those herbs.
I don't always need the herbs. Anyway, we that was the theme of this potluck and people brought just incredible things that would have never occurred to me. Someone created a tostada that was like quote unquote pulled pork, but it was really banana peels that had been treated. I know like pulled pork. And then they work at Emma's Torch, which is a
like a culinary training program. And so they were serving fruit plates and they had pineapple peels and cores left over from the fruit plates that they made. And they reduced the peels and the cores to make a pineapple syrup that became part of the barbecue sauce. And I was like, this is why we shouldn't throw anything out because there is something to be done with everything.
And there was stale bread used for these beautiful bread puddings. someone made a garbage green goddess dip. it was so
Sara Abernethy (19:07)
my God, what is in that?
Dana Cowin (19:10)
good. It was herbs and stems. I mean, the idea that we've been told to toss stems by whoever was the recipe goddess who said, you know,
trim and toss the stems. I'm like, why? This is just
Sara Abernethy (19:24)
Blasphemy.
Dana Cowin (19:25)
really bad recipe writing. In any case, recipe standard. It's not the writing, it's the standard. So it was stems, mayo, but you can substitute yogurt if you want. You could even do it with buttermilk. Champagne vinegar, anchovies, and all these stems. Blitzed up. And it was so good that I...
really begged to
Sara Abernethy (19:49)
Good.
Dana Cowin (19:50)
take the leftovers home. And I like stood at my counter the next day and ate this green gauze with a spoon because it was so good. I didn't even need to care.
Sara Abernethy (19:58)
I mean, it sounds, you could put it on anything.
Dana Cowin (20:01)
You could really put it, truly put on anything.
Sara Abernethy (20:03)
Anything.
Dana Cowin (20:04)
So, so yeah, I just, love this idea of the creativity and the fun that you can have while...
saving
things from the landfill or even compost, right? Like the idea would be to use ingredients to their highest purpose. And the highest purpose is for human consumption. know, compost is lower. It's great because it goes back to the land. And the last thing you want to do, of course, is landfill.
And I'm an urban person, so I think that we end up sending things to landfill more than someone who might have a backyard. backyard compost would be so easy.
Sara Abernethy (20:47)
Just a quick break in today's conversation to extend an
invitation to you. Your listenership and your support of the podcast truly, truly means the world to me. And it does take a significant amount of resources to produce this podcast. So if you have enjoyed these conversations,
If you want to help continue ensuring that these conversations and this visibility are available to the women in our community and the people who need it most, I invite you to join our Her Seat at the Table Patreon community. You can join for as little as $3 a month, which is basically like buying me a cup of coffee, which would be very appreciated.
And I do have some cute perks in there, everything from doing a live
shout out of your name on an upcoming episode, all the way to an invitation to the upcoming Her Seat at the Table dinner party, which I host in the fall of each year in Raleigh, North Carolina. So thank you for considering. Thank you for listening. And let's jump back into our conversation.
Sara Abernethy (21:52)
There's a joke amongst my peers on Instagram. I don't know if you've seen this, but I went to the store and I almost forgot to buy a bag of mixed greens so I can throw it in the trash two weeks from now.
Dana Cowin (22:05)
That is so me, it's terrible. I haven't seen
Sara Abernethy (22:08)
But it's so real.
Dana Cowin (22:09)
that, but it is so real.
Sara Abernethy (22:11)
Like you go in and you have all these dreams about the woman you want to become because of this beautiful
Dana Cowin (22:15)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (22:16)
salad you're gonna make with all this produce. I mean, and really getting more familiar with you and the progressive hedonist movement has challenged me to just simply pay attention because
Dana Cowin (22:31)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (22:32)
it's such a very...
warm, welcoming invitation that I feel when I engage with you and when I engage with, can I call it pH? Can we say that? pH? Progressive
Dana Cowin (22:43)
Sure,
Sara Abernethy (22:46)
hedonist. It's not a shaming energy by any means. It's just like, think twice. Think twice about meal planning. What are you going to use this for? And really, I should be shopping about every four to five days.
Dana Cowin (23:05)
Uh-huh.
Sara Abernethy (23:05)
I shouldn't
be shopping two weeks at a time.
Dana Cowin (23:09)
I mean, ideally, you know, I do think that there's life to consider, right? And everyone is imperfect. I'm so imperfect. I have a bag of broccoli leaves and spinach stems that are just waiting for me to make a pesto. I'm like, you know, someday. So I just I have a lot of compassion for people who do their best. You're just trying to do your best. So shop as frequently as you can so things are fresh and you're not over buying and then recognize
you know, realize that, gee, shouldn't have gotten the fourth avocado. Another problem of mine. Like, those avocados, you know, like I'm so excited about the first two. And I probably shouldn't even be eating avocados considering they're dead. Yeah. They're so good.
Sara Abernethy (23:52)
I know, but they're so yummy and they're so versatile,
but they do always ripen right at the same moment. And if you don't grab them at that moment, whether it's four or six or eight or whatever, it's nuts. I've been thinking a lot recently about, I think about this all the time as a restaurateur, but just the cultural practices around eating. And I think as I'm preparing the dinner for my two very small children,
how we are not cooking nearly as much as previous generations did.
Dana Cowin (24:27)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (24:28)
We are going out to eat more, but not even going out to eat more because that is a luxury
for so many people.
Dana Cowin (24:33)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (24:34)
We are consuming prepackaged prepared foods or ordering in.
contributing to this convenience lifestyle that's really bad for a number of reasons. Number one, if nobody's cooking, who's teaching these kids how to cook?
Who's teaching these kids about recipes and heritage and everything like that? How are they gonna feed themselves? Number two, I think about, because I'm looking at PNLs that are like, here's all the shit you wasted. Here's all the time, everyone's time and labor that you wasted this week and here's
Dana Cowin (25:07)
Mm.
Sara Abernethy (25:09)
all the food that you wasted.
Dana Cowin (25:12)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (25:12)
And I think about domestically, why are we all?
cooking in our individual households. Wouldn't it make so much more sense for someone who's already putting the effort, I don't have an answer for this by the way, this is just me, this is me spouting the issue that I see.
Dana Cowin (25:27)
I'm listening. I'm here for the answers,
Sara Abernethy (25:30)
Like why, if we had the capacity of one or two people making food for 20 to 25 people, wouldn't that be such a more effective use of their time? And then I started thinking, could I just like do this for my neighborhood once a week? Could I just?
Could I just like reach out to my neighborhood and say, hey, I'm making lasagna and salad. If you want to share, let me know and throw in five bucks or whatever. There's got to
Dana Cowin (25:57)
love that idea.
Sara Abernethy (25:58)
be, right? maybe I should try it.
Dana Cowin (26:02)
Like why not?
I love that idea. When I was at Food and Wine, we did an amazing story on a group of people, mostly women.
in Sonoma County, so California, who did, they made tamales together. So they would just like make a massive number of tamales. And then people took them home, and so they did the work together. And then they had the, you know, was like food for the freezer and for the future. And like, what a great way to, you know, have some camaraderie, make some food, and yeah, have fun.
Sara Abernethy (26:38)
be together, I mean,
there's just so much, there's so much that gets passed down or passed along human to human. Do know what I'm saying? Like, I'm thinking about, you know, certain families who would make dumplings. Or I interviewed, I interviewed the, oh, you don't live here in Raleigh.
Dana Cowin (27:03)
In my heart I do.
Sara Abernethy (27:05)
There's two fabulous sisters who own, co-own with their parents, a Lebanese fusion concept here called Sassool They have multiple locations, it's fabulous. But they were talking about just growing up in the kitchen rolling stuffed grape leaves with their aunties. And how, you know,
Dana Cowin (27:21)
Great.
Sara Abernethy (27:23)
how annoying that was for them at the time as kids, but how formative it was to them becoming women.
Dana Cowin (27:28)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (27:28)
And if we're not doing that together, there's just something that intangible and irreplaceable that's going to be lost. That's my concern. I don't know what my version of rolling stuffed grape leaves is for my kids is going to be, but I really will have to think of something when the time comes.
Dana Cowin (27:45)
I like you'll find something. It'll
come to you naturally, I think.
Sara Abernethy (27:50)
Yeah,
I hope so.
Dana Cowin (27:51)
I
do feel there's something with the challenges of the economy. I mean,
that people are eating out, I mean, depends, depending, but are eating out a little bit less and doing a little bit less takeout. The takeout business is, I don't know how you feel as restaurateur, but it's really challenging because you have the black plastic and you have hot food in black plastic. So you're eating microplastics and there's so much waste that goes along with that. In addition to like delivery fees.
and so I feel like sometimes the economy can push us in a good direction as the the counterbalance of the counterbalance to doing takeout is doing just very simple food at home right like
And so I'm hopeful that that will take place. And the other thing that I find quite hopeful with progressive hedonist, we do events, but we do all kinds. Like there's potlucks, but I also have an artist's workshop and a writer's workshop that are based around these notions of connecting people to nature, care more about nature and protect it for the future. And though my current projects are writing,
and drawing, I've also done dyeing workshops that's again the same idea of connecting people
to nature. I find that people have so much curiosity about the world of crafts and the world of doing things with their hands and when you can tie that to food and friends and just having a good time. There's hope in that arena that we're returning to some pride of craft, pride of repair.
doing
these things together. These things that are really granny crafts, right? Like I told my mother that I wanted to take a watercolor class and she was like, you are way too young for that. I'm like, what? I think her point was, you know, that's for old people who are, you know, retired and not doing anything with their lives.
But it's also for 20-somethings. It's for the people who can find the time, no matter what the age is. So I love the Granny Crafts, and I love what that says about how we want to, how more and more people want to get in touch with analog and tactile and a more generative future.
Sara Abernethy (30:22)
Do you think
we're going to see more and more of a return to that as we see more and more AI incorporated into our lives?
Dana Cowin (30:32)
I think they'll, you know, I do think they'll coexist.
I think we have no idea where
AI will land and I wouldn't really necessarily pair crafts and AI, but I would pair an obsessive, isolated online life. So that could be continuous scrolling, it could be AI driven. But this idea that we do understand in our soul that we need to get off the screens.
will, I think, continue to push forward the crafts we do with our hands, the gathering we do with humans. it's a big world. People will do everything, you know? So we're talking about a particular subset of people who'll be drawn to the analog. I just happen to fall into that category and hope there's more and more of us.
Sara Abernethy (31:27)
How did you come to the name progressive hedonist?
Dana Cowin (31:30)
Hmm. That's such a good question. It was like honestly a two year
process. You would think that of all the things, but I was developing this site. Like what does it, what am I really trying to say? And how do I do it in words that.
people will remember and doesn't sound like everything else. So the exercise included really boring things, like good food, good earth. just terrible. I have hundreds of terrible names and
Sara Abernethy (32:02)
No bad ideas in brainstorming, Dana.
Dana Cowin (32:04)
yeah, they're all bad. They're all bad. And...
And in fact, there are people when I was sharing the idea of progressive hedonism with the world, I talked to people on the activist side and they were very offended and they still are. There are people who are, you know, they're like longtime activists who find it offensive because hedonism
Sara Abernethy (32:25)
name?
Dana Cowin (32:27)
has a very particular selfish, self-centered root and origin. And so the fact that I'm trying to
change the perception of what pleasure means. There people who just think it's a terrible idea. I talked to this very impressive, brilliant professor, businessman, who's launched many careers and much in the green space, and he was like, the first thing you need to do is change the name. I'm like, thank you, but what's the second thing? Because I'm not going to do that as the first thing.
The name came about just thinking I'm really trying to redirect and redefine what pleasure is and the idea that instead of pleasure being self-centered the idea is you can't
experience pleasure if you're not thinking about the future and making progress. So I put the two things together and depending on your age or stage, you think progressive hedonist is or two words that are in conflict with each other.
And I think that's for older generations and the younger generations are like, that totally defines me. That defines my life. I, and they had no sense of the irony, right? They're like, of course we all, you know, want to live a great life and we don't want to burn down our planet. So yes, we are both.
Sara Abernethy (34:02)
I mean the latter resonates with me. That's how I interpreted it.
Dana Cowin (34:05)
Yeah, so I like it just because it makes people stop. The only thing is that the age progressive hedonist, it's hard for people to hear the age. There's a lot of repeating and that's, know, people who do branding will say you should have a name that is easy to hear and easy to say. like, well, it's really easy to read.
Sara Abernethy (34:33)
It is easy to read and it's,
I mean, it's such a cool, I'm looking at it on my other screen over here. Because I also want to talk about, I want to get into your three principles a little bit and I didn't want to botch them up. Was the process of solidifying the principles as labor intensive as the name or was that easier to solidify?
Dana Cowin (34:55)
quite labor intensive. had a phenomenal thought partner, a woman named Megan
Bennett. She designed the Progressive Hedonist logo. She designed the website and we just went back and forth on the name for those two years. I would say I come up with it and she was like, no, that's not it. And she refused to design the logo until I'd really and there was a reason and she was really right to do it until we refined.
what this was and was it the right words and anyway, she was fantastic. That went equally for the principals. It just took a long time. I had a lot of people volunteer their time to help me and there was someone who was highly organized and a great researcher who
also helped figure out and write up the principles that are on the website, which honestly, in the real world, they've evolved a little bit from the website. But what she did is she took nonprofits and CPG businesses that were aligned in terms of principles. So good for humans, good for the earth, good for humanity. And she distilled
all their messaging and she distilled, so the general messaging and then their principles and did a spreadsheet. And at the end of this massive like 50 rows down and five rows across, she took the learnings of what these nonprofits and for-profit companies were saying were the necessary principles to have a business that was good for humans and the planet. And that, her work,
we then refined and refined a little bit to end up with the principles that we have today. But you'd think, as an editor, everything I did was very intuitive. This is where it was so nice to have someone help me who just loves a spreadsheet, loved the research, put everything together, and then synthesized all of it and came up with these bullet points that I then sort of wrote and codified.
Sara Abernethy (37:14)
Did you feel like you really did wrestle with it to make sure all of this was very intentionally aligned with what you were thinking conceptually?
Dana Cowin (37:26)
It was a really great process because the five ideas that she came up with, we put through a couple of different screens. For example, it's good for the food world because that's the world that I'm addressing and that's the world we researched from.
Would it be equally true in the fashion industry? Would it be equally true in tech? Are these principles general enough and solid enough to apply across industries? Because as much as I'm very focused on food and joy and climate, it's all intersectional. I mean, if you look at fashion, depending on what you're working with, the ingredients are grown, right?
Cotton is grown. is
Sara Abernethy (38:14)
That's true, yeah.
Dana Cowin (38:16)
just fashion is disposed of. And so that was also really interesting. She did such a great job that the principles were general enough that you could apply it across industries and it would also still be valid.
Sara Abernethy (38:35)
Very cool. So we
Dana Cowin (38:36)
Yeah, that's cool.
Sara Abernethy (38:37)
have source sustainably, which I think we have heard a
lot, Meaning purchase things as locally as you can, right?
Dana Cowin (38:47)
Yeah, it's, mean,
all of these, one of the challenges that I came across was what you just said, which is we've heard it all before. So that's
Sara Abernethy (38:57)
Hmm.
Dana Cowin (38:58)
interesting. If we're trying to make a movement to have people change behaviors, how do you change up the language to make people listen or how do you make it feel more applicable to them? When we say source sustainably, we generally do mean local.
Sara Abernethy (39:16)
as much as you can. it's not, it's hard to live that way entirely.
Dana Cowin (39:18)
And local news, it
was very hard to go that way entirely, I was talking to someone who is a Taiwanese importer.
And we were talking about doing an event together. And I was like, well, I'm just a little concerned about the footprint of the ingredients that we would be using. And can we talk about this? And she opened my eyes. I do believe in supporting local partly because it's important for the local businesses to survive, right? In addition to being good for land. But her products that come from Taiwan are organic. They're
They come from farms that are family run. They're run in such a way that it is good for that community. It is good for those people and it is good for the planet. And the transportation miles, which is what I was so concerned about, the energy expense, was modest because it came by boat. So it turns out, yes, we do want to support local, but...
We also want to support growing practices, techniques, and communities that are doing the right thing as long as the transportation costs or the packaging costs aren't upending any good we would be doing. So that was just a different perspective for me because I never thought about it. I'm like, okay, I take that on. And then I did a little bit more research. I'm like, is she just saying this because this is her business? you know, some I'm sure there's divided opinions and everything, but some amount of research suggests that that's a that there is a place.
for something like that.
Sara Abernethy (40:56)
I don't think people consider those factors though when they think about the phrase source sustainably, always. So I think that that's really important as well. How does it get here? What are the practices used to make the thing? And what are the practices used to get the thing here? All
Dana Cowin (41:12)
Yes.
Sara Abernethy (41:13)
of those contribute to that equation. Not necessarily just going to the North Carolina farmers market to get your collard greens, right?
Dana Cowin (41:21)
And it's really
a tragedy, think. Well, that's too big a word. I wish that farmers markets had been the answer to changing the food system and that having farmers markets in so many places meant that we'd solved the food crisis. And it just hasn't been. So we have to look at so many other ways to address food systems in the future.
Sara Abernethy (41:50)
So I'll use the second principle, which is reduce copiously to catch you up on my pizza party.
Dana Cowin (41:56)
I want to hear all about it. I wanted to start with that, I thought that would be so rude. Can I take over this podcast
right now? I really
want to move out your pizza party.
Sara Abernethy (42:04)
So I hosted, we're recording this in spring of 2026.
have had this idea for years to do a pizza event in concert with March 14th, which is 314, or Pi for you math nerds out there. So it would be a Pi event.
for Pi Day, so many of my ideas I think are so brilliant and they are just completely disruptive to my restaurant operations. And
Dana Cowin (42:33)
You
Sara Abernethy (42:33)
the staff has like, they humor me to a degree, but I've kind of started to just back up because the juice is not worth the squeeze as we say. So the progressive hedonist potluck was a perfect excuse to do this.
I originally wanted to do a potluck dinner in September of 2025 and then Hurricane Helene decimated my state and then life happened and or 2024 it was, whatever. Time is not real. So the
Dana Cowin (43:00)
Hahaha!
Sara Abernethy (43:01)
pizza party concept that I landed on was, okay, invite a bunch of friends over, have everybody bring something from their fridge that's already open or about to go bad.
We're gonna make a giant pizza topping bar on my counter. Chris, my husband,
Dana Cowin (43:18)
So great.
Sara Abernethy (43:18)
has a big Ooni oven that he's obsessed with, you know, that he set up on the back deck. And we had everybody make their own
pizza, little mini pizza. And it was
Dana Cowin (43:28)
So great.
Sara Abernethy (43:29)
just so fun. I wish I had taken more pictures. I always forget to take pictures during the thing. But I did have a few. Yes.
Dana Cowin (43:34)
always happens that way. Yeah. But tell me about some of the toppings. Like, what did people bring?
Like, were they creative? Were they, you know, exciting?
Sara Abernethy (43:45)
We had a plate of avocado, roasted red peppers, sliced tomatoes,
Dana Cowin (43:50)
Hmm.
Sara Abernethy (43:51)
a bunch of sliced mushrooms. We had done some prime rib, something for an event at one of the restaurants and there was a bunch of leftover prime rib. So we took that home and we sliced it up real thin.
Dana Cowin (43:59)
Ooh, nice.
Sara Abernethy (44:03)
We had several different kinds of cheeses in our fridge that were already open. Gorgonzola, feta, gouda, know, whatever. People brought open bags of kale greens. People brought
Dana Cowin (44:14)
Three.
Sara Abernethy (44:15)
open bags of arugula. I think the best, most innovative pizza of the event was we had some open, not everybody has this, we had open fromage blanc in our fridge.
Dana Cowin (44:29)
my god. Perfect.
Sara Abernethy (44:31)
but so
like, get that like, that's not common. But then
Dana Cowin (44:33)
you
Sara Abernethy (44:35)
someone had brought leftover macaroni and cheese from their like kids mac and cheese night the night before and we did fromage blanc macaroni and cheese on a pizza and then drizzled hot sauce on the top. And I know it might sound gross.
Dana Cowin (44:49)
It smells delicious.
Sara Abernethy (44:51)
It was out of this world.
Dana Cowin (44:54)
Sounds like a great like hot pocket, you like a calzone just like folded over bacon gooey. my God, that sounds delicious.
Sara Abernethy (45:00)
Big and gooey and then the hot and
then the kids ate it without the hot sauce and loved it. And then the grown up with the hot sauce to cut through all that creaminess was just like delicious.
Dana Cowin (45:10)
Hmm.
Sara Abernethy (45:12)
And it was a really great time. got to introduce some families that had never met each other before.
Dana Cowin (45:17)
Nice!
Sara Abernethy (45:18)
Kids were making pizzas with their parents. It was a beautiful day. So we were like in and out of the house and had the doors open, but we could still have a fire in the fire pit.
drank some great wine that,
Dana Cowin (45:30)
Mm.
Sara Abernethy (45:30)
you know.
Dana Cowin (45:31)
Did you find it low pressure or sort of high pressure? Because you probably made all the pizza dough, right?
Sara Abernethy (45:38)
Well, we have a pizza program at Glasshouse Kitchen, so we just took pizza dough from the restaurant.
Dana Cowin (45:43)
That's not hard for you. Because I think some
people, know, they might be listening, they're like, that sounds like fun, but my God, so much work, right? And I think...
Sara Abernethy (45:51)
But it
wasn't, and to answer your question, very low pressure because either you can buy pizza dough from your grocery store right now. It's so easy to find, or if you want to, you can probably call a local
Dana Cowin (46:06)
Yes, you can.
Sara Abernethy (46:07)
pizza restaurant and ask, hey, could I buy some pizza dough from you? And then you could buy a pre-made crust if you wanted, if you needed to. I mean, there's definitely options.
But it wouldn't have to be pizza. You could do pasta and cook a big bowl
Dana Cowin (46:22)
Right big customer.
Sara Abernethy (46:24)
of pasta, which is also very low-lift, very economical, and have people make their own pasta bowl.
Dana Cowin (46:30)
I think also
just getting the kids involved and people, know, that you made something that's an individual size. So everybody gets to have exactly, you know, if you don't want the cherry tomatoes, you don't have the cherry tomatoes. If you don't eat meat, you don't. So I don't know. It just sounds like so much fun. And also I will say that when I go to these events, when at the one that I described, which was on Monday, and I did have these things that I should have turned into a pesto, but I also had
So many leftover brownies from a party that I had done the week before and every time I pass those brownies I'm like, I can't throw them out because it's food I absolutely can't eat them because it's like a sugar bomb and So I I brought those it made me feel so good to move them out of the house and share them with other people like just that sharing and Reducing your own waste. It's really fun
Sara Abernethy (47:24)
I'm obsessed with this banana peel thing you mentioned earlier. You're not the first person I've spoken to recently that's talking about using banana peels to do as a meat substitute. It's just
Dana Cowin (47:35)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (47:35)
like very fascinating.
Dana Cowin (47:37)
It's a different, it's a substitute for jackfruit, right? Obviously it's
Sara Abernethy (47:40)
Right, right.
Dana Cowin (47:41)
a substitute for meat, but it's a substitute because a lot of people aren't fond of jackfruit. That has been the go-to vegetarian or vegan version. Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (47:51)
of like pulled pork or what have you.
Dana Cowin (47:53)
Exactly. But then I've noticed a theme in these no waste potlucks of plantains and banana peels across the board. So that was a testata in the guise of pulled pork. But an event that I did the week before, someone made a plantain ferment, which was delicious. And then an earlier
no waste, someone made a banana peel, banana cream cake. I'm like, oh my God. It was, yeah, it was really good.
Sara Abernethy (48:24)
Was it good?
Dana Cowin (48:25)
was delicious. I mean, it was also a woman named Paris Starn who's a bit of a genius. So I'm not sure in everybody's hands it's perfect, but she just made a miracle for sure.
Sara Abernethy (48:37)
Well, to your point also, you posted a video, I don't know what it was, about you. had a bowl of leftover produce and you threw it in a field.
Dana Cowin (48:47)
Yes, that's often
how it goes. But yes, I don't even have it. Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (48:50)
Right instead of because I know you if
you're in an urban area like you are you can't throw it in your backyard Composting
Dana Cowin (48:58)
Good.
Sara Abernethy (48:58)
is not necessarily available to you So I have also started doing that as much as I can keeping the scraps if I'm not making a broth with it Which I do often in the winter, but in the warmer months if I'm not making a broth keeping that in the Fridge with like leftover greens and the onion tops and the leftover carrots that my kids don't eat
and cored out pepper middles and orange peels and all that stuff. And then we do have a backyard
Dana Cowin (49:27)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (49:27)
and I just throw it into the woods. I just throw it into the woods. And I don't see
Dana Cowin (49:33)
Yeah, so I.
Sara Abernethy (49:34)
any, it doesn't give me any issues. So if anyone, if that is your situation and you can, you have permission. Dana gives you permission.
Dana Cowin (49:44)
I do, I mean the question that I've gotten from pictures or stories like that is what about the animals? And we have a lot of animals in our backyard, but none of them are interested in my leftovers. I do not know why. They do not come eat the corn cobs. They don't eat the coffee grounds. They don't eat the apple cores. They don't eat any of it.
Sara Abernethy (50:05)
I don't have an issue with animals either, quite frankly.
Dana Cowin (50:07)
Yeah, so I don't know what that's about,
Sara Abernethy (50:10)
But yeah, mean, does it say something about my waist? Yeah, I don't know.
Dana Cowin (50:12)
Exactly. What does that mean? I don't know.
Sara Abernethy (50:16)
And then the final principle is live abundantly, which I think seems to be more of a call to action in being together, being in community, recognizing what you do have, being grateful for what you have.
My mantra of 2026 is make the most of what you already have. it is,
Dana Cowin (50:38)
Mmm, that's great in every way.
Sara Abernethy (50:40)
I am not, the last eight years have been a lot about go, go, go, survive, survive, survive, grow, grow, grow, grow.
Dana Cowin (50:48)
No.
Sara Abernethy (50:49)
This year is like, no, no, we're going to make the most of what we already have so that the universe knows we're thankful for it. And we might eventually be ready to receive again. Right? How could you? That's right.
Dana Cowin (50:58)
I'm sure you'll see it all along the way. But
yeah.
Sara Abernethy (51:02)
That's
right. So can you tell us a little more about living abundantly and what that means to you?
Dana Cowin (51:08)
I think you've done a beautiful job of describing what it means to you.
started progressive eating in part out of this sense of isolation and fear and that you know with those feelings you begin to close in on yourself and you don't live abundantly and that notion of how do you create a sense of abundance it's not about economics it's about mindset and so for me the abundance is
watching and observing and finding joy. You know, if I'm walking through the park and just paying attention to the abundance of beauty, that...
is very soul-filling for me. So there's a version which is there's abundance all around us and let's not forget that and let's appreciate while we're also trying to do more. And then there's the abundance in that.
I think you breed abundance when you develop and deepen your relationships with other people. so that idea is living abundantly is living in community with people, whether it's bowling night, I think I've ever done a bowling night, but whatever, know, so like, whatever
Sara Abernethy (52:35)
Whatever it is.
Dana Cowin (52:37)
it is, you know, having people over for coffee and a book giveaway, which I did last.
Last summer, had my neighbors walk over with coffee because I didn't want to feed anyone. And I had cookbooks that I had an abundance of and I want to give away that abundance and in sharing an abundance that I have, it creates a sense of universal, you know, give and take. So I think there's abundance everywhere. And
even in these somewhat restricted times, even more important to recognize, as you said, what we have. Working with what we have, appreciating what we have, and building that sense of when we build relationships with people we don't know or that we do know, the sense of our world getting larger and more fulsome.
is perhaps the most meaningful thing. And that's what I've learned after doing, whatever, two years of these events. I, at first, was really focused on the small changes that people could make, particularly around waste and sourcing. And that was great. Those are messages that people had had, but they became more conscious in their everyday life. And I do feel it had an impact, but the greatest impact.
after all of these events and going forward is watching the relationships that get knit together and how people support one another and how this community grows. I've never tried to build a community or a movement. It's at Food and Wine magazine. We had millions of readers and the way you find them is consumer marketing. You you're marketed to and you pay money and then you're part of this universe. And now I'm
doing it like person by person, city by city, group by group, just knitting together these communities. And that gives such a sense of wealth, know, just the wealth of relationships and the wealth of possibility and the wealth of, you know, sharing happiness. So at the end of the day, these events and the progressive hedonist model is around
the third pillar essentially, because people leave feeling more connected.
Sara Abernethy (55:06)
I have chills hearing you say that.
Dana Cowin (55:10)
And I bet
that, I'm sure that happened after the pizza party. I do think it's always important to have people who know each other and don't know each other, because that's how, you know, that's how you, that's
Sara Abernethy (55:19)
That's the best party.
Dana Cowin (55:20)
the best party, yeah.
Sara Abernethy (55:26)
man, I just had like three simultaneous questions at once and they all went away.
Dana Cowin (55:31)
You'll come back.
Sara Abernethy (55:33)
You put the podcast down for a moment. Will the
podcast wake back up at some point? No, no.
Dana Cowin (55:39)
I don't think so. I mean, I loved,
I love have conversations with people. I don't like marketing them. And I think that if you, so there's another way for me to have conversations that I can share
Sara Abernethy (55:54)
Mm-hmm.
Dana Cowin (55:55)
that doesn't involve podcast marketing. Like podcasts is a very flooded market.
Sara Abernethy (56:01)
And guess
what? As I've learned, it's a lot of fucking work to do this.
Dana Cowin (56:05)
It's so
much work. It's so, and I was, I had help, you know, on the engineering side
Sara Abernethy (56:10)
Yeah.
Dana Cowin (56:11)
and distribution, but even that when I think about would I rather impact 40 people deeply for an event and they, you know, or would I rather do a podcast? I'd rather touch 40 people, you know, in their hearts and keep going
Sara Abernethy (56:27)
In real life.
Dana Cowin (56:28)
in real life.
Sara Abernethy (56:29)
Yeah. I imagine, think, I'm sure I said this earlier, you and I both have lots of ideas swirling around us all the time about programming and events. How do you understand which ones are worth pursuing and which ones might be shiny object syndrome?
Dana Cowin (56:47)
I have a very good gut sense and I also don't mind if I'm wrong. There is no wrong as far as I'm concerned, right? Right now there's a lovely momentum with progressive hedonists, so more people are asking me to do events than I probably have time for.
So it's a question of personal satisfaction. And what's personally satisfying to me is impacting more people. I don't find that that's, it hasn't yet been a challenge. It might become a challenge in the future, but so far.
Sara Abernethy (57:30)
I'm sure a lot
of people ask for your time.
Dana Cowin (57:32)
I mean, so far it's more, you know, it's sort of like in the making of yogurt, you have the whey and then you have the yogurt and the whey is like very valuable. And so I don't think that any request I've ever had is worthless, but some, you you set aside for another time to make something else completely.
Sara Abernethy (57:52)
And then my last question for you, wonderful Dana Cowan, who's been so generous with your time. I am a firm believer that joy is resistance. That is a principle that I follow
Dana Cowin (58:04)
I'm with you.
Sara Abernethy (58:05)
deeply, and the joy bucket must be continuously tended. So how are you, finding joy right now?
Dana Cowin (58:16)
I feel very lucky in that it's sort of the centerpiece of my life, right? Because progressive hedonist is built for joy. The idea is to help others, including myself, experience joy to galvanize for a difficult future or to take on the fight. So my day is filled with joy, it's filled with fight.
So I find joy in people and deepening relationships with people. But I also find joy walking through Central Park, which is outside my door. I find joy in, I mean, I'm a terrible artist, but in like learning to use watercolor. I find joy in very, very, very bad TV. Very bad TV. Which only started.
It's crazy. I cannot believe how bad it's gotten. Bad TV and bad books. Not, you know, just like trashy. I find that super relaxing.
Sara Abernethy (59:25)
I'm so glad to hear you say that because
Dana Cowin (59:26)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (59:28)
the more serious I get in my pursuits, the more junk I consume for entertainment. Like the trashier
Dana Cowin (59:37)
it is.
Sara Abernethy (59:38)
and trashier my entertainment tastes seem to be getting.
Dana Cowin (59:43)
I turned a corner. mean, they've just gotten so bad. it's all post pandemic because before the pandemic, which now is obviously a long time ago, but I never watched TV. I never, ever, ever watched TV. So it's like, I'm totally out.
Sara Abernethy (59:57)
We were out and about. You were on the town, you know, working
and traveling, I'm sure.
Dana Cowin (1:00:02)
Yeah, I'm
probably out and about, whatever. Anyway, no TV, now TV. You know, it's
Sara Abernethy (1:00:06)
Now TV.
Dana Cowin (1:00:08)
like, I'm out at an event and it's 10 o'clock and I'm like, but wait a minute, I still have to get my hour of trashy TV and I gotta go. It's cuckoo. Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (1:00:17)
Yeah, just, on John Oliver's recommendation,
Dana Cowin (1:00:22)
Yeah.
Sara Abernethy (1:00:23)
consumed the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City and it was highly entertaining. He was not wrong. It was highly entertaining. it's horrible.
Dana Cowin (1:00:29)
Was it really? Wow. I've never watched anything in that franchise, but horrible.
Sara Abernethy (1:00:35)
It's just horrible, but highly entertaining. And it does help me decompress at the end
Dana Cowin (1:00:42)
right? I know.
Sara Abernethy (1:00:44)
of the day. then I have, know, it sends me on this on ramp to the sweetest little sleep. So,
Dana Cowin (1:00:48)
Hahaha!
Sara Abernethy (1:00:51)
well, Dana, thank you. I really have cherished meeting you. Thank you so much for everything you're doing with Progressive Hedonist. If you who are listening would like to learn more,
You can go to Dana's website at Dana, that's D-A-N-A, Cowan, C-O-W-I-N, dot com to learn more about progressive hedonist and how you can get involved, host your own potluck, have your own pizza party, and learn more about her principles.
Dana Cowin (1:01:20)
Exactly. I'm all about it.
We've been...
I've been lucky enough to have a lot of people volunteer to host progressive hedonist parties like you. I feel so lucky trying to get it going in the wild because that's when it really takes flight. So if anyone's listening and they want to host, I have a guidebook. It's super simple. I try to make it as easy as possible for people. So yeah, and if you want to IGDM me at progressive underscore hedonist on Instagram, if that's easier for you. I love an IGDM.
In fact, I think that's how we planned this.
Sara Abernethy (1:01:55)
It is! It is, it is. Well, have
a wonderful rest of your week, Dana. Thank you so much.
Dana Cowin (1:02:02)
Thank you.