For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
Kaley Olson:
Well, hi friends. Thanks for tuning into The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast where we share biblical truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here today with my cohost Kendra LeGrand.
Kendra LeGrand:
Hi, Kaley.
Kaley Olson:
How are you doing?
Kendra LeGrand:
Great to be with you. I'm doing really well. How are you?
Kaley Olson:
It's great. I just feel like I should just hold your hand in the studio.
Kendra LeGrand:
Well, we are really close together.
Kaley Olson:
We're next to each other. And Kendra, you're just one of my favorite people.
Kendra LeGrand:
Friends who podcast together, stay together.
Kaley Olson:
Yes, yes. Well, I am actually along for the ride for today's episode because Kendra, you actually recorded this episode with Madi Greenfield, our director of marketing at Proverbs 31 Ministries, a few weeks ago at our She Speaks conference. And we are about to hear a conversation that you guys had with Dr. Alicia Britt Chole, the author of a book called Anonymous: Jesus' Hidden Years and Yours, which, first of all, the title of that book is just so intriguing. But guys, here's what you need to know about the book. Jesus' first three decades of life were mostly hidden, which I've never thought about that. Isn't it wild?
Kendra LeGrand:
Yeah, because we read about his birth and then about his ministry at age of 30, and you're like, well, was he playing with friends on the schoolyard or in the schoolyard?
Kaley Olson:
What did he do-
Kendra LeGrand:
What was his favorite food?
Kaley Olson:
... when he was in high school? I know they didn't have high school back then, but we just read the Bible and I forget that we have so much insight into Jesus' ministry years, but we don't really know-
Kendra LeGrand:
His every day.
Kaley Olson:
... what he was like. And I mean, nobody really did. And I think Alicia is really onto something and unpacking the fact that Jesus had most of his life not be recorded except for the very end.
Kendra LeGrand:
Right. We don't know much.
Kaley Olson:
So, Kendra, I would love for you outside of us being raving fans about the book and just what it's about in general. This is the Circle 31 Book Club pick for...
Kendra LeGrand:
September.
Kaley Olson:
September.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes.
Kaley Olson:
So will you tell us why? Why now?
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes. Okay. So the premise of the book, like you said, is most of Jesus' life was hidden. We don't know much about it, but it's all about those hidden seasons of our life. So the mundane moments, maybe we're folding another load of laundry, maybe we're taking our sick parents to the doctor. It's just the everyday things that we do that we're like, does anybody notice? I feel unappreciated, I feel overlooked, who even cares? And it's just talking about those hidden moments and why they're actually where God does his most holy work. And so, what better way to read it together with a community of women? And in September when things are picking back up, rhythms are starting again after summer. And so, let's just do it together and read all about it.
Kaley Olson:
I love that. And we've talked about Circle 31 a lot on the podcast here, but one of my favorite things about what you guys do in the Circle 31 Book Club is you're not just reading a book together, but you're making progress together. And the way that you do that is through grow groups, and with every book that we read, we've got three grow groups. And this is an opportunity for you not to just, like I said, you don't just join Book Club for free to read it on your own. You join it with a community of women. And so, our grow groups are topic-based, and so will you tell us what topics we're covering in those grow groups?
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes. And another fun fact about grow groups is they're all Proverbs 31 staff-led, which is really great. So number one, one of our grow groups is all about trusting God in the wait. So when we're waiting, that's a very hidden season when we feel like a prayer hasn't come to fruition yet, or an answer to prayer hasn't come to fruition yet. And so, what do you do in the wait? The second grow group is when God's plan doesn't align with our plan. And so, that really is going to unpack transition, grief, just when things change unexpectedly. And then the third one is maybe you feel like, hey, the best years of your life are behind you. Could God still use where you are now? Maybe you feel like you're too old or you're too past your prime, or maybe you're not in the workforce anymore, so can God still use where you are now? Fun fact, he can, absolutely, your best years are ahead, but maybe you need to talk through that a little bit. That is led also by a staff member.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah, I love that. I love it so much. And so, guys, we have made it really simple for you to get connected to the Circle 31 Book Club, which is absolutely free, by the way. So head over to our show notes to get started or go to circle31.org, sign up for free today and join a grow group. If it is before September, please be sure that you do that because if you identified with anything that Kendra just mentioned about working in the waiting or when God's plan doesn't align with our plan, or you're wondering if your best years are behind you, that is a community of women that we want you to rally behind and read with. And I have been in the Circle 31 platform myself and seen how encouraging people are towards one another. And so, it really is a book club like none other. And we want you.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes, not your average book club.
Kaley Olson:
Get involved. Yes.
Kendra LeGrand:
We're excited.
Kaley Olson:
Yes, very excited. All right, Kendra, let's listen. You ready?
Kendra LeGrand:
Yeah, let's go.
All right, podcast party people. Madi and I are excited to welcome Dr. Alicia Britt Chole, who would love to be called just Alicia, right? Because she's one of our friends to the podcast today. And so, Alicia, welcome.
Alicia Britt Chole:
Thank you. It's such a joy to be with you both.
Madi Greenfield:
We're so excited to have you here. I thought it would be fun. Let's do a little introduction for our friends on the podcast who might not be as familiar with Dr. Chole. Alicia is an award-winning writer and international speaker and holds a doctorate in leadership and spiritual formation from George Fox Seminary. She's written several books, but the reason she's here today is because she has written one of my personal favorite books. It's one of those books that you would never lend out to a friend you'd always buy.
Kendra LeGrand:
Because of the notes.
Madi Greenfield:
Because of the notes and the margins. But she's written one of my very favorite books called Anonymous: Jesus' Hidden Years and Yours, and I'm so excited to have a conversation with you.
Alicia Britt Chole:
Oh, I love talking about it. Writing that book was like dancing with Jesus. It was one of the most beautiful experiences I've ever had.
Kendra LeGrand:
Oh, well, we can't wait to hear more, and listen, one of the neat things about Anonymous is it is our September Circle 31 Book Club pick. So we're going to be reading it all together, which we're really excited about. And one of the really neat things is it's easy to read on the go because their chapters are short, but the chapters are full of really good things, things to ponder, things to think about, things to sit with. And like Madi said, there's a lot of underlines and a lot of notes in the margin, which is really fun. But you guys should know that this book has been a transformational message for both Madi and I. Madi, this is your number one book of all time, other than the Bible, I should say. And so, Alicia, we're excited to ask you some of our burning questions about the book. So, Madi, why don't you take it away?
Madi Greenfield:
Yeah. Well, for some of our listeners who maybe aren't familiar with what it means to be in an anonymous season, could you unpack it a little bit?
Alicia Britt Chole:
Oh, absolutely. Anonymous seasons refer to those spaces in our life where we feel hidden, like somebody pressed the pause button on our potential or on our dreams. It's those spaces in life where we look around and we say, this is not where I thought I'd be, what I thought I'd be doing at this point in our lives. It also captures spaces in which we may feel overlooked or underestimated. There may be a huge dream inside of us, but people around us don't seem to be opening any doors for its fulfillment. So in hidden seasons, we feel as though we're somehow on a back burner and we begin to wonder of all those dreams that had been in our heart, if maybe they were just wishes. We begin to wonder if the things we thought God had created us to do, perhaps that was just some sort of dream.
Kendra LeGrand:
Wow. Wow. And Alicia, is it safe to say, did you write this book because maybe you were in a hidden season yourself?
Alicia Britt Chole:
As an introvert, I welcome hidden seasons.
Madi Greenfield:
You like being, okay, hidden? That's good.
Alicia Britt Chole:
It was not the overflow of some angst of being hidden and trying to get out of hiddenness, no. The actual beginning of the study was I was preparing to speak somewhere, and like Jesus normally does, he rarely tells me exactly what to say. He tells me what to study. And so, that study returned me to looking at Jesus' wilderness temptation, which I had looked at, I don't know how many times before, but this time, all of a sudden, I started seeing it with new eyes. Up until then, I had always viewed the wilderness temptation as a very real trial in his present, as a very real trial in his present that opened a window, foreshadowed some of the challenges he would face as he walked a crossword, but never before had it occurred to me that it also opened up a window into his past because God did not just drop the sun on the planet at the age of 30.
There were these three decades, these three mostly anonymous decades which weren't wasted at all. And so, when we see the incredible strengths that Jesus exemplifies in the desert, in the temptation, when we sit in awe at his feet with his teachings, all of a sudden I realized, oh my goodness. All of that didn't just get divinely downloaded in a moment. It had been growing in 30, mostly obscure, mostly anonymous years. And so, when I started thinking about how the Father choreographed the life of the Son, I started realizing that God doesn't hide us to punish us. He hides us to protect us. That those hidden years are actually the surprising birthplace of Jesus style, indestructible strength. Oh my goodness. That study captivated me for eight years before it overflowed into this book.
Kendra LeGrand:
Wow.
Madi Greenfield:
Well, you can tell. I mean, every single chapter, every single page of Anonymous is there's something underlineable, there's something quotable. There's something that you can tuck away in your heart that will come up on the day that you need it the most. I think one of my biggest takeaways of Anonymous is that God never wastes anyone's time. And you talk about it a lot when you talk about Jesus being in the desert and that all of these things that he's experienced in the desert really prepared him for what he was, everything prior to that, prepared him for that moment. But for someone who is maybe just in a tough spot right now, they're listening to this and they're saying, oh my gosh, I feel so unseen. I feel so uncelebrated. I don't know if my dreams will ever come into fruition. And they hear that phrase, God never wastes anyone's time, and it could feel a little hurtful.
Alicia Britt Chole:
Yes.
Madi Greenfield:
What would you say to them?
Alicia Britt Chole:
I would say that the way that God grows us doesn't have to be visible in order to be valuable.
Madi Greenfield:
I'm going to write that down.
Alicia Britt Chole:
When we think about the examples God's given us in nature, we think about how life grows in a womb. God conceals from our curiosity his most magnificent act of creation. But because those months in the womb are basically unseen to the naked eye, the unaided eye, we can't see the intricacies of what's happening. Does that mean that nothing's happening there? Absolutely not. Those months in the womb are quite literally formative, but we think about the birth of a plant. Before a gardener can enjoy a plant's fruit, she has to tenderly and strategically attend to its root. So a plant's birth really begins with its burial.
We commit an unremarkable sea to the silence of the soil, and there it sits unseen, uncelebrated, and everything in that plant's future rests on its ability to send out roots in hidden places and reach for the sun. So just like that, we see that in these spaces where we feel hidden, in these spaces where it seems like nothing visible, nothing tangible can show for the time that we're spending, God is growing something of eternity in us. He's growing the kind of, as I said, Jesus-style strengths. And so, nothing wasted does not mean everything's visible. It means that when nobody else is applauding us, God sees us. And if we can make our treasure not being seen, but seeing him, oh, what he will grow within us will have the kind of weight that will give our life an authority that will awaken souls.
Kendra LeGrand:
And what a relevant message in the rise of social media when a lot of it is like, look at me or see me or like this or share this. And so, what a beautiful message just for those times where you just want to be seen by the Lord and it doesn't matter what other people see. And so, when we are looking at Jesus being tempted in the desert, we know that there was a lot of work that went in before that and the decisions that he made to stay close to his father. And so, we can look at, it's easy to feel like our daily choices are insignificant, but really, they have a lot of weight to them and where we spend our time, and so on days when it seems like our actions don't count, how would you encourage someone to stay motivated?
Alicia Britt Chole:
Well, I would say that if Jesus spent 30 years in that space, we can spend three days. Really, we get frustrated when our dreams don't come to pass in three months, let alone 30 years. It's interesting. We keep saying we want to be like Jesus, but we have a lot of disclaimers in that. We don't want to be like Jesus in his wilderness temptation. We don't want to be like Jesus in living in relative obscurity for three decades. We don't want to be like Jesus when he's misunderstood and misrepresented and mocked, let alone murdered.
There's really a lot of addendums to our I want to be like Jesus. So I think part of what can strengthen us is to realize that what he asks us to do, this call that covers each and every one of us, was simply to follow Him, and follow Him is all about company. It's not about scenery. How often do we decide the worth of our journey by the scenery? That wasn't in the calling of Christ. It was follow me. In these hidden seasons, they give us the opportunity to perhaps get our eyes off of the scenery and onto the company and decide that he's the real treasure of life on this side of earth, this side of heaven.
Madi Greenfield:
Yeah. That's so good. I think sometimes when we think of being seen, it's easy to picture that as like I'm on a stage or I'm hosting a podcast.
Kendra LeGrand:
A published author. Yeah.
Madi Greenfield:
I'm a published author or I'm well known. I have a million followers on Instagram. But I even think when you talk about being seen, you're not even talking about those big things as much as the little things. I grew up most of my life in North Carolina, and then a year ago I got married and moved to Northern California, and in North Carolina, I was never seen on a stage. I was never seen in these big capacities. But I was seen because I was known and it was so familiar what was around me. And then when I moved to the opposite side of the country and I was no longer seen by what was familiar, I found myself in another anonymous season. But it wasn't because my dreams weren't coming to fruition as much as the familiarity of what was around me was stripped away. And I had to say, is it enough for me to be known by Jesus and not known by all of these people who I was around my whole life?
Alicia Britt Chole:
Yes, yes. Yeah. Is his attention enough? And there's so many different things that trigger this. Like you said, when we move to a new place and nobody knows our name, or at least I don't know how to pronounce it, or when perhaps we go from being a leader to a learner again, maybe we go back to school to get more education. There are times when other people's choices initiate changes in our lives that take us into a more hidden or a more anonymous season. There's a lot of different ingredients to creating them. But the key question in them is resounding, is God's attention enough? Is his attention enough?
And once you settle that question, one of the beautiful things that that does is it levels all moments because you start realizing with Jesus is really what makes this moment valuable, with Jesus is what makes this moment powerful. And I am with Jesus, whether I'm diapering a baby, or I'm taking out the trash, or I'm on a stage, or I'm just signed a contract for another book. It levels all moments because every moment is equally full of potential to be with him. Then after it levels all moments, it elevates all moments because then every single moment is equally full of potential to worship him, to love him, to see him.
Kendra LeGrand:
That's beautiful. I love that.
Madi Greenfield:
It really is.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yeah. I could listen to you all day, Alicia. Okay. So I would love for you to speak to the woman who feels like she is in an anonymous season right now. What would you say to her just to encourage her?
Alicia Britt Chole:
Oh, well, then you're following Jesus.
Kendra LeGrand:
If you guys could see Alicia smile right now, she's smiling so big.
Alicia Britt Chole:
I mean, Jesus' life gave us this example. 90% of his life was spent in relative obscurity. We see a day here, a day there, a day here, a day there. But most of it was submerged in the unseen. And only three years of his life was really visible. And so, if you're in an anonymous season, you're in a hidden place, I know it can be uncomfortable and it can be frustrating, and sometimes you can wonder if God has forgotten you, but he hasn't. You're following in the footsteps of God's son and there is more growth going on than you can see.
Madi Greenfield:
I love that. I'm about to have a baby in about eight weeks, which is crazy. And I know that stepping into that season of motherhood, it's another big change. And I know that is going to come another anonymous season. And so, what would be your advice to someone who maybe knows an anonymous season is coming, and how you would tell them to prepare for it? And I'm going to write all it down because she is giving me personal advice right now.
Alicia Britt Chole:
When I mentor, which is what my day job is, right? I'm a mentor. One of the things that people will hear me say a thousand times, if they hear me say it once, is an encouragement to live in the plural. And I'll go ahead and explain what I mean by that. So when we think of faith, we often sing it more like a solo than a duet. Faith is with God. And so, we might start our day with God, we'll start it in the duet, and then we check off our devotional from our list and we go on the rest of our day living it like a solo. Life in the plural means that we begin to not only start the day with God, but we actually just think with him. So I am not here having a podcast time with you guys.
Podcast time. I don't even know what I would call it. In a podcast, whatever this is. Jesus and I are here. I didn't work out this morning. Jesus and I worked out this morning. I didn't get my nails done, Jesus and I got my nails done. I don't have to pay taxes in a few months. Jesus and I have to pay taxes in a few months. It's the Jesus and I, the Jesus and I, the Jesus and I. So even for someone who's listening, maybe after this, they're going to go get some groceries. No, it's not them going to get groceries. They and Jesus are going to go get groceries. There's this shift that if we make it in our mind, it starts reaffirming the theological reality that we are never alone, that we are always with him, that he is always with us. And I cannot think of any discipline more transformative, apart from studying the word of God, than this shift to living in the plural.
So you and Jesus are here together, and you and Jesus are about to give birth to your baby, and then you and Jesus are going to be having a lot less sleep, and you and Jesus are going to be learning how you respond to a beautiful gift of life that you don't always know what the problem is. It's you and Jesus, and you and Jesus are going to do great, but it reminds us of where the real presence of God is. It's not awaiting some fabulous moment in worship. God's not hiding behind some stage awaiting for our faith or songs to hit a certain pitch. It's that gentle pressure of our mind to attend to the one who's always attending to us. And that helps make every moment holy.
Madi Greenfield:
And what a gift to know in the seasons where you feel unseen or unrecognized, you are absolutely not alone. You might feel like you are alone, but stepping in and living in that plural breaks that loneliness completely apart.
Alicia Britt Chole:
That's right. Yes. We're always with him, even when perhaps sometimes some of the things we're thinking we'd rather not be. We are always with him.
Kendra LeGrand:
You bring up a good point about we're never alone and something that we love here at Proverbs 31 is to do life alongside other women and grow together and learn together. And that's the heartbeat behind our book club that we're going to be doing with you in September. But how can we be honest with other people about our anonymous seasons and how can we do that well within the confines of community and friendship?
Alicia Britt Chole:
Yes. Well, tell the truth.
Kendra LeGrand:
That's always a good place to start, isn't it? Yes.
Alicia Britt Chole:
I'm thinking the truth wins. Yeah. Well, we have a lot of different levels of relationship, and we want to see everyone. We want to affirm the value of everyone. And when it comes to sharing the contents of your heart, the cluttered contents of our hearts, we look for people who know that they're already valuable, and so they can receive our honesty and steward it well, and I think that that's part of what Proverbs 31 has done a great job creating a community whose identity is in God based upon a tremendous commitment to the scriptures. And so, hopefully, many will find a safe place to simply be honest. When we are honest with one another, it removes another layer of self-protection that we've built up around our hearts, and it makes us simply more vulnerable, and more vulnerable is actually more powerful.
Madi Greenfield:
Why is that?
Alicia Britt Chole:
Yeah. Well, if you think about it, if you think about my heart, if you could visualize it, and we build up these layers of protection, some people would call them masks. Perhaps because we've been wounded, perhaps we've become hurt. And the problem is you can't build up all of these layers and expect to still stay soft. And so, it's in these vulnerable moments where we're going, okay, I'm just going to be truthful. This is where I'm really at. God, this is what I'm really thinking. My dear friend, this is what's occurring in the darker corners of my heart. We're removing those layers of self-protection, and so it makes us more raw. It makes us more sensitive to God's presence, to God's love, to God's word. He is the ultimate reality. He is the ultimate truth. So the more you and I can live true, the greater our capacity to live with him.
Madi Greenfield:
Wow.
Alicia Britt Chole:
So reality is a friend of intimacy with God, however painful it may be. And conversely, denial masks all those layers. It's an enemy of intimacy with God and an enemy of intimacy with one another.
Madi Greenfield:
Wow. Alicia, thank you so much for coming on the Proverbs 31 podcast. If it's okay, I would love to read one of my very favorite parts of the book.
Alicia Britt Chole:
Oh, yes, please. I'd love to know what it was.
Madi Greenfield:
This is the very last page of the epilogue, and you tell a story about one of your friend's sons. I read it to Kendra as we were preparing for this episode, and I can barely get through it without choking up. So I ask for the grace of you and the people listening. You say, "Whenever I'm disappointed with my spot in life, I stop and think of the little boy who's trying out for a part in school play. His mother told me that he'd set his heart on being in it, though she feared he would not be chosen."
"On the day the parts were awarded, I went with her to collect him after school. The boy rushed up to her, eyes shining with pride and excitement. 'Guess what, Mom?' He shouted, and then said those words that will remain a lesson to me. 'I've chosen to clap and cheer. I've been chosen to clap and cheer.' When we've been chosen to clap and cheer, may God find our spirits as sweet. Sweetness through hiddenness guarantees abundance and harvest, and God's good and perfect time."
I love that story. And I think about it so often that maybe my purpose in life is to just clap and cheer for the people around me. And listening to you now with this idea of a plural mindset of what a gift and what a purpose, if at the end of my life, I can say that I just clapped and cheered with Jesus for all the people around me. I love that story.
Alicia Britt Chole:
Yes, I do too. And I think too, it goes against one of the great errors we have in our age that God applauds position. He doesn't, he applauds obedience, wherever obedience leads us, including long hidden seasons.
Madi Greenfield:
Yeah, I think that's great. Friends, if you have resonated at all with what Alicia has shared today, if you feel like you've been in an unseen or uncelebrated season and you're not really sure how to move forward or what to do, we are reading this book together. You can process it with a community of women who aren't going to judge you, but get you through the Circle 31 Book Club. So if you want to join, you can join us starting September 1st. This book is so good, and we don't want you to miss out. I'm going to let our book club extrovert, Kendra, share a little bit more about it. But like I've said, this is one of my favorite books. You won't regret. Even if you just read half of it, you won't regret it. You'll take so much away from it. So please join us.
Kendra LeGrand:
All right, so here's how you sign up. You go to circle31.org. We like to make it easy for you. Just go there, sign up, and then you can get the book at p31bookstore.com. And if you do buy it from P31 bookstore, Alicia put together a bonus content for you. It's called Eight Scriptural Prayers to Connect God's Word to Your Real Life. And you'll find prayers there in scripture that deal with if you feel like someone pressed the pause button on a dream, or maybe you feel like you're being underestimated or invisible, or maybe you're finding it really hard to keep on waiting on something. So there are some really good things in that free resource for you.
And the other thing we'd love to do, you might already be a member of Circle 31 Book Club. We would love for you to join a grow group. And grow groups are, I would say, large, small groups that are designed to grow in a particular area that you'll read about in the book. And so, we have three of them. One, we have God is Working in the Waiting, and that is led by one of our staff members, Claire Fox. We have When God's Plan Doesn't Align With Our Plan, and that's about grief and transition. And that's led by another staff member, Jenny Wheeler. And then we have Are My Best Years Behind Me, and that's led by Melissa Taylor. So those are just some things you can do, and we would love for you to join us.
Madi Greenfield:
And that's all we've got for today.
Kendra LeGrand:
That's it.
Madi Greenfield:
Thank you, Kendra, for letting me be your cohost for today's episode.
Kendra LeGrand:
It was the best, Madi.
Madi Greenfield:
And Alicia, thank you for being here. It's like a thrill to have a conversation with you. So I hope I didn't fan girl too much. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe that when you know the truth of God's word and you live the truth, it changes everything about your life. And I hope that this podcast encourages you to keep dancing with Jesus and make your faith a duet.