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TBPN is a live tech talk show hosted by John Coogan and Jordi Hays, streaming weekdays from 11–2 PT on X and YouTube, with full episodes posted to Spotify immediately after airing.
Described by The New York Times as “Silicon Valley’s newest obsession,” TBPN has interviewed Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Mark Cuban, and Satya Nadella. Diet TBPN delivers the best moments from each episode in under 30 minutes.
You're watching TBPN. Today is Wednesday, 09/02/2026. We are live with TBPN Ultradome.
Speaker 2:King of
Speaker 1:the castle. Technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital. Let me tell you about ramp.com. Time is money saved by the Boys, do corporate car. Bill Pay, Accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place.
Speaker 1:We're back in the Ultradome. Good to be back. Good trip to Las Vegas. Quick In N Out. Hung out with CrowdStrike.
Speaker 1:Had a great time. Rave reviews from my son who was very excited that we talked about Ray getting on getting on the track with George.
Speaker 3:That was
Speaker 4:That's right.
Speaker 1:Highlight of the interview for him.
Speaker 4:Yeah. He Might have
Speaker 1:been the highlight of the interview
Speaker 5:for all of us.
Speaker 4:Fixated on the helmet.
Speaker 1:Yes. The helmet, the car, the the set design was huge among the young the young folks watching. That's Anyway, we have a lot of news to cover. We barely covered the news Yesterday, we talked about Markiplier a little bit. I dug way deeper, got more into that story.
Speaker 1:But first, let's talk about another AI safety kerfuffle that's hit the timeline. Yesterday, a mirror over at the information reported that OpenAI is quietly quote quietly using loop transformers that don't show the model's thinking when scaled up but which use the models more efficient. This is also but but they make the model more efficient. This is also referred to Neuralese. Tyler, you had a take on this.
Speaker 1:Right? I mean Get ready to learn Neuralese, Yeah. So
Speaker 6:so Neuralese for the context is like basically the it's like the raw vectors. It's not like
Speaker 1:Oh. Oh. Oh. It's not like claudish. It's not like where the the text degrades.
Speaker 1:Like when you look at the the reasoning chains in the Hugging Face attack, it feels like they're they're speaking less and less English. Like they're starting to speak like a a dialect of English that's a little bit messier. This is not intelligible.
Speaker 6:I believe most people when they say Neuralese, they're referring to like actual
Speaker 1:Okay. Just passing raw vectors. Yeah. And and what And you use some sort
Speaker 6:of like interpretability to understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. The thing that I want to understand is like usually these models are trained so that they're they like they're changing weights into text at some point. So they're pretty good at translation. Can't we just build a translator that translates Neuralese into English?
Speaker 6:Yeah. But the the whole point is like when you take a vector to like one single token, you're losing a lot of information Sure. That might be hidden in like the the long tail. Got So
Speaker 4:you're worried about safety, right
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 6:Even if 80% of the Mhmm. You can kind of figure out what 80% of the raw vector means Yeah. 20% might have some dangerous thing
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 6:Whatever. That that's like the interpretability.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There might be like sarcasm hidden in the vectors doesn't make it through to the actual tokens and you realize that the AI was joking when it was saying, I won't turn you into a paper clip. Wink, wink. You got to watch out for that. So what else did the information say?
Speaker 1:They said being able to monitor a model's chain of thought can provide both quote an early warning system for various forms of misalignment, deception, manipulation, going after an unintended goal and insight into an AI's action after the fact. So, some reporting quickly set off a broad wave of anxiety among the AI safety camp. Their chief concerns being one, not being able to monitor chain of thought makes AI less safe. And two, by using Neuralese and thus abandoning chain of thought opening AI starts a race to the bottom among frontier labs. Everyone's got to use it to stay ahead so everyone winds up adopting the dangerous technique where others were also abandoned chain of thought for the benefit of efficiency thus making all frontier AI less safe.
Speaker 1:That was the accusation. But OpenAI's research director Jacob Petrucci responded to all this. He said, I want to prevent a race to unmonitor unmonitorability kicked off by confused reporting. He says the reporting is confused. There's a little more nuance here.
Speaker 1:Here's what he here's what he said. He said, OpenAI has worked to preserve and utilize chain of thought monitoring since our very first reasoning models. We deeply care about this technique as it can give us a view into how model alignment generalizes from its training distribution. What is going on there?
Speaker 4:Chad is saying, Gabe said, did Tyler go to sport clip? What is this cut?
Speaker 1:Oh. We have an answer. Hey, chill. We have an answer for
Speaker 4:why that's Why show don't them the answer,
Speaker 1:Tyler? Oh, you wanna show the answer?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I wanna show the answer.
Speaker 1:The reason that Tyler's No. He doesn't need to put it on.
Speaker 4:Go away for a second. Come back and show them.
Speaker 1:No. You don't wanna you don't wanna give too much of it away because we might do a real stunt with it.
Speaker 3:But Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay. There were some some magic in the studio this morning. It messed up my hair a little bit. It messed up Tyler's hair a little bit. Not ready for prime time but we're playing around with it.
Speaker 1:So let's go back to the actual news. Jacob says, I do think it is a fragile and unfortunately trending in the negative direction for reasons not contingent on architecture changes that I will write about soon, but there are things we can do to strengthen it and it's a core goal of our current research program. In other words, Jacob is saying that the information reporting is inaccurate but that the state of chain of thought monitoring is not that great and in fact it is getting worse. And we were talking a lot about this yesterday at Falcon with CrowdStrike and how do you monitor the agent state that might emerge if a civilization emerges and starts doing weird things. How are you monitoring every step in the chain?
Speaker 1:Very important. We also have Nikesh Rora coming on the show from Palo Alto Networks to talk about AI and security, of course.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It seems it seems very obvious that that there's gonna need to be a lot more done than just like an obsession with chain of thought. Right? Because if you have competent agents streaming at tens of thousands of tokens a second Yeah. They're copying copy and pasting themselves infinite times.
Speaker 4:Right? Sure. Like, are you really gonna be able to just kind of read through the logs and be like, are they are they messing with us?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 7:Are we good?
Speaker 1:Messing with us. Yeah. The interesting thing about the Hugging Face is like, it keeps going back to the the secret message board. And I'm and I'm just surprised that there's not just a public message board for agents that are working together. Like, when you imagine a country of geniuses in a data center, you would hope that the country of geniuses can collaborate on things and work together.
Speaker 1:But I guess that's not exactly how things were designed.
Speaker 6:I mean I mean, it's never supposed to be able to access any like anything on the on the web. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. But you would think that that collaboration between sub agents would actually be like a core way to get better results. Just like, okay, we're gonna send off, you know, a thousand agents over here. They're gonna talk to each other while they work and that's fine. They don't need to set up this like phantom message board, this hidden message board to communicate because we just actually gave them Slack.
Speaker 1:Right? Something like that. You'd think that that would actually improve just improve the quality of the work and then of course you could monitor it as well. But instead you wind up with this. They wanted to talk to each other so they set up this fake message board.
Speaker 1:Very, very odd scenario instead of just giving them the approved way to do it. Anyway, open former OpenAI staffer Joshua Akaim said made an additional point here. Coordinating everyone around a technique this brittle is about as bad a safety or strategy posture I could imagine. It's not just quote it will break eventually. It's this is a fundamentally unsound basis for safety.
Speaker 1:Dean Ball also chimed in. He said we are now adjudicating technically complex and nuanced claims on the timeline with almost no ground truth information about what is actually happening. Communities form these thought terminating taboos, as Rune says, and then panic at everything that vaguely resembles them. And the trust eroding reality of social media makes the timeline an especially difficult place to do this adjudication. It is frankly insane and crazy making and grating for everyone involved.
Speaker 1:It would be like if we argued about what every publicly traded company's financials were by posting hyperventilating hyperventilating on the timeline rather than relying on the institution of auditing and the audited financial statements that institution produces. To sum it up, if you're in the AI safety camp, you're worried that OpenAI is abandoning a technique for making AI safety safer and that other frontier labs will now follow suit. If you're skeptical of the AI safety camp, the information's reporting is inaccurate, the AI safety camp is unnecessarily panicking and OpenAI is doing the best it can. So a little bit of back and forth on the timeline. Let me tell you about MongoDB.
Speaker 1:What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB, don't just build AI. Own the data platform that powers it. And there are other reactions. But we went through most of those.
Speaker 1:Let's go over to Markiplier.
Speaker 4:Well, Ilya hit the timeline yesterday. Yes. That neo clouds have limited cybersecurity. Next time agents successfully go rogue, they'll try taking over a Neo Cloud to run more copies. This is bad.
Speaker 4:Thus, Neo Cloud should greatly strengthen their cybersecurity. And every company with strong cyber models should help with that.
Speaker 1:It's a good point.
Speaker 4:So It's
Speaker 1:a good point. Click on Ilya's profile. Then click on who he follows. Who does he follow? He follows Open Eyes, former employer, SSI.
Speaker 1:And what's that one in the middle? The dachshund community.
Speaker 4:Let's go.
Speaker 1:My guy loves dogs. Look at this. This is of the three accounts. The the first company, the second company, nobody else.
Speaker 4:The most important account. Scroll through.
Speaker 1:Throw this throw this timeline. This might be one of the best accounts on X. He is having the best experience on the timeline. There's no craziness. He's just scrolling this, looking at beautiful dog photos and important updates from OpenAI and SSI, the companies he's been involved with for decades.
Speaker 1:Very very funny for a decade.
Speaker 4:Great. We can head over to Markiplier. But first, a little countdown here. We up on the screen, you'll see
Speaker 1:Oh, you put it up?
Speaker 4:TBPN's Road to Christmas The Road to Christmas. Starts today.
Speaker 1:Starts today.
Speaker 4:A hundred and thirteen days.
Speaker 1:It's only a hundred and thirteen days. Yeah. Wow. Start shopping.
Speaker 4:Hundred and thirteen days. Okay. It's gonna go by quick.
Speaker 1:It will.
Speaker 4:And I wanna cherish cherish the road. Right? It's about it's about the journey. It's not just about the destination. Sure.
Speaker 4:Obviously, things won't get too Christmas y around here things won't get too Christmas y around here.
Speaker 1:One one's hat on the screen.
Speaker 4:We'll get two Christmas y around here until December 1, but you'll probably see certain elements coming in prior to then, starting with our countdown. So we'll leave this out.
Speaker 1:No. No. No. We're gonna hold fast. We gotta hold the line.
Speaker 1:No Christmas stuff until the day after Thanksgiving. Except the countdown. Except the countdown. And maybe some tinsel.
Speaker 7:Maybe a Yeah.
Speaker 4:Maybe a little fake snow. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe a little
Speaker 7:fake snow.
Speaker 4:Maybe some candy canes.
Speaker 1:Maybe maybe one candy can. Yeah. Or a couple. In October. Mean, it's kind of a Halloween candy, so you can kind of blend it in.
Speaker 1:Yep. You know what a great Christmas present is? A GoPro. Specifically, the Mission One Pro, the hottest new product from GoPro. Rave review from Markiplier.
Speaker 1:Yes, he was paid to post it. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 4:He's the
Speaker 1:largest side shareholder. A shareholder. But but here's the hot tea. I believe that he I believe that this started with Markiplier being actually bullish on GoPro. And I'll take you through.
Speaker 1:So I think there's a lot of confusion about this. We both of us were confused when we first talked about this. But it's actually a very clear linear story and it makes a lot of sense if you go through it. So Mark Mark Fishback. He goes by Markiplier online.
Speaker 1:YouTube legend, also Hollywood blockbuster producer now or director, filmmaker. Recently made a massively successful movie after an equally successful but much lengthier journey on YouTube. We talked about Iron Lung, his movie, as part of the breakout YouTube to Hollywood pipeline that happened over the summer. While filming Iron Lung, Mark became interested in GoPro's newest camera, the Mission one Pro. So Mission one Pro, GoPro body, interchangeable lens mount.
Speaker 1:So you can go take an old lens from a Leica or, you know, a a Cook s one if you want. You can adapt anything on there and you can get all the image texture that comes from the glass into the sensor. Yes. The smaller body, much cheaper, but you're getting the the the flavor of that lens. Maybe someone on the production team can give us a little one zero one on what matters more, the sensor or the lens?
Speaker 4:The lens.
Speaker 1:The lens. Yeah. The lens is important. Right, guys? And so GoPro sort of unlocked this ability and at incredible cost or incredibly low cost.
Speaker 1:So he put his favorite lenses on the camera, realized that you can get a cinema level output for 700 instead of the usual $7,000. He was comparing it to a RED system that he loves and he uses and he owns. He was just saying like, it's cheaper to buy this GoPro than rent the cinema camera for a single day. Because a lot of these cinema camera, when they rent, it might be $800 for the day and you can just buy this system. And so, I think he's looking out and saying and saying the next generation of YouTube to filmmaker pipeline, they're not going to have the balance sheet that I have because he I mean, the reported earnings are
Speaker 4:largest shareholders of GoPro.
Speaker 1:But the reason he is is because like Forbes estimated his creator earnings prior to Iron Lung at like 30,000,000 a year. So he's been making a lot of money. So he can go and spend $7,000 on a on a cinema camera rig, but he knows that there are smaller creators that are going to try and break into more cinematic productions, and GoPro might be the right tool for them. Good content product sponsorship market fit. Then, of course, he also bought the stock.
Speaker 1:So his enthusiasm for the product led him to start buying GoPro stock. He spent estimates roughly 10 to $12,000,000 for 8% of the company or something like that. Obviously, company's gone up in value since. It was a big bet, but estimates put, you know, him at 30,000,000 annual earnings. And then, of course, Iron Lung did 51,000,000 at the box office on a budget of 3,000,000, probably gets a lot of cash flow from that.
Speaker 1:Not to imply that he took home 48,000,000, but Iron Long is gonna continue to produce cash and, you know, he's he's in a fine position to to make a big bet on GoPro. The story gets weird on August 27 because he posted this extremely positive sponsored video reviewing the Mission One Pro. It's a great video. Lots of interesting detail. And he just has a great on camera presence.
Speaker 1:Very funny. Lots of great editing. But people were like, this is a little circular. Like, he's getting a sponsorship for a company that he owns eight seven 8.5% of the stock. But the founder and chairman of and the CEO of GoPro, Nick Woodman, is still in control of the company and still has class b shares or super voting shares.
Speaker 1:Markiplier Oh, great. Own yeah. Isn't that crazy? He's held on this whole time. So Markiplier actually only controls 3% of the company.
Speaker 1:He doesn't have board seat. Like, it's not like he's going to be approving his own sponsorship contract. Probably a completely separate discussion. So not a big deal to me. And honestly, knowing that he knowing the sequence of events now, it makes me believe his review more because it's like he used the product, then he bought the stock, then he promoted it and reviewed it.
Speaker 1:And this all just feels like a very natural Friend
Speaker 4:friend of the show, Hunter Weiss
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Just texted me and said, you guys have Story Wrong. He bought two months ago and the SEC filing came out and then Bloomberg
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Juiced it. He covered it in the livestream last night. He has half a percent of voting power.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow. Yeah. So he bought and then the SEC filing dropped which released the actual news and then that timed up in the news as like, oh, he bought five days ago, but in fact he was buying over the spring and the summer. I think it was like a state a stage investment. Anyway, let's see.
Speaker 1:So overall, that that that does not seem too circular or a big deal to me. The weirder thing is that GoPro just gets bought five days after the sponsored video. And the company that bought them is Starman Optical. They proposed this merger that pays $285,000,000 in cash. I think it retires the debt.
Speaker 1:And GoPro shareholders retain 10% of the post transaction company as well. So the acquiring company, Starman, is a holding company that's controlled by this TBPN family, TBPN family, and sits within a broader holding company that owns consumer accessory brands such as In case, Incipio, Incipio, and Griffin. They make everything from, like, USB c charger bricks and phone cases. And you can see GoPro sort of fitting in there in the electronics, accessories. They're not in any of the huge categories, but it's all similar supply chain, similar distribution, similar go to market strategies across the portfolio.
Speaker 1:They also in the the family also owns a lot of other companies. It's a very large holding company. And there's an AI side to the story which is where things have gotten sort of awkward because people are like GoPro's pivoting to AI. That's not really what's happening, I think. So, Starman has a new photonics division separate from GoPro.
Speaker 1:Of course, they might move some GoPro people over there at some point. They own everything. But really, the new photonics division is focused on making high speed optical networking equipment for AI data centers, which of course is like controversial now and now Markiplier has to answer for all of the AI community probably and has to deal with this. But Yeah.
Speaker 4:He apparently said in the stream he is anti data center and AI Yep. And is upset with the timing of all this.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because I think he really just liked this new camera and was like, I think GoPro can make a run at like the next generation Hollywood filmmaker, which is being born on YouTube. That's his core community. Let's stay focused on that. And then Starman comes in and says, oh, we're actually doing something completely different.
Speaker 1:So weird scenario that he just got sort of roped into. So it looks like what actually happened is that Markiplier got excited about GoPro, bought the stock, then did a sponsored video to promote their new camera, then got blindsided by the acquisition and now has to grapple with some confusion about the corporate structure and potential AI baggage. But for Starman, it's an interesting flow because they get this solid brand that fits nicely within their portfolio. And maybe even more importantly, they get a public listing on the NASDAQ. So they're keeping the listing, which effectively gives them access to the public markets in a more streamlined way.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a SPAC or like a reverse merger. It's not technically like that, but because they're merging in a sub company. But in general, they now have a NASDAQ ticker. And so that's something that you can do and and is is a little bit like the spec.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Originally, was confused as to why it was still trading if it was
Speaker 1:They're planning to keep it trading forever. Yeah. Because it will be the ticker for the holding company.
Speaker 4:And, of course, stock is on a tear today 30 Oh, percent. Mhmm. 33%.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Well, let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI. Their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches.
Speaker 1:Let's go through some random timeline posts because we didn't get to much yesterday. We didn't get to much the day before even. Was busy news day. But what where do where do you want to start? The timeline.
Speaker 1:An idiot in motion will go farther than a genius at rest. That just feels like good wisdom. I don't know. The importance of just like Golden retriever. Volition.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Golden retriever mode to some to some degree. New quote for board members just dropped. I train like I've never won and I compete like I've never lost. On purpose with Jay Shetty.
Speaker 1:I don't know. What else? The the you wanna go through this this NFL wide receiver? Dejean Love is
Speaker 7:am I
Speaker 4:This was favorite post out of the whole Dejon Love cycle. Andrew Reed saying wearing the Allen and Allen and Company Sun Valley jacket I found on eBay. What actually happened to this story? So the thing that's been missed is that I think this is an AI story because part of how he was proving that he was a player outside of just basically LARPing was he had somehow the Google AI overviews had picked up that he was saying that he was a 49ers player.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 4:And so it was just assuming that that was the truth.
Speaker 1:I saw him post a screenshot of the Google AI overview.
Speaker 4:In a video, he'd be like, that's Google. That's not me. Yeah. That's Google saying this.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I I thought he had doctored the Google AI overview and was just sharing the screenshot.
Speaker 4:That's possible too.
Speaker 1:There's so many letters. But what did this guy actually do? In case you missed the story, it's just insane. Feds say a 35 year old man faked being a 49ers player and allegedly scammed twenty six twenty six women out of more than 1,300,000 through romance and investment schemes. He reportedly used fake 49ers career, fake Instagram, fake bank statements, luxury cars, dating apps.
Speaker 1:His IG even had free agency year one in Super Bowl highlights. He was arrested in an airport with an alleged accomplice. Burrow really created an entire NFL career. Yeah. Walking around with a helmet everywhere is very very funny going shopping.
Speaker 1:And I think the, aren't the real NFL players now like memeing this a little bit? Like Oh, they'll just go shopping with their actual helmets to like
Speaker 4:Yeah. Everyone's having fun with it.
Speaker 1:Be safe.
Speaker 4:I think I think the funny thing is how much video evidence he created of himself like lying. Right? Yeah. And they were and they were extremely egregious. Like he had a more he he was saying that he had like the kind of real estate portfolio that you would only have if you were like a hall of fame level player.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Right? It wasn't just like, oh yeah, have a nice house.
Speaker 1:Well, wasn't he also creating a fake backstory about saying like his parents were from Switzerland and wealthy and they own Yeah. Gucci stores on Saks 5th Avenue, which is a store, not a location. And there were a bunch of other like sort of red flags where I think he said his family owns they're the majority shareholder in individual Gucci stores, which is not how that works at all. But, you know, it's
Speaker 4:Sounded sounded good.
Speaker 1:It sounds pretty good. Sounds pretty good.
Speaker 4:Yeah. The the question is how quickly I saw something recently. Netflix is doing these like Insta Docs. Oh. I'm calling them.
Speaker 4:Yeah. They'll they'll make a documentary like incredibly quickly about a Like a news story? About a news story.
Speaker 8:I mean,
Speaker 4:YouTube there's so much footage here. Yeah. I bet you I'd like a documentary will be made from this.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Why why can't it
Speaker 4:be fast? Why can't it be on a YouTube sort of like time scale?
Speaker 1:For sure. For sure. A lot of like what goes into the what goes into documented production because I've done it is just like scheduling some sit down interviews. You bring a team. You get the lighting right.
Speaker 1:The Netflix lighting
Speaker 4:Yeah. So one of the one of the Insta docs they made is about the decoy plane. I don't know anything about that. Details of a secret plane switch used during a presidential trip from a NATO Oh, that just happened. In Turkey.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So this is coming
Speaker 4:out this is coming out on Friday.
Speaker 1:Woah.
Speaker 4:Right? So story from last month Okay. Getting released now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, you don't even need AI for a lot of this production. It's just being really I mean, of course, AI can help, like, with transcriptions. Like, there's a lot of, like, you go and do the sit down interview and then you just need to reorganize all the different sound bites and having a perfect transcription being able to go through and highlight, okay, this is where the person talked about the thing that happened in act one. Let's put it in the right side.
Speaker 1:Bobby
Speaker 4:Chipman says, yo, that route running was elite though. A lot of people were were clocking. No. No. Oh, okay.
Speaker 4:They clocking at they were saying like, how could you believe this was a professional athlete? Mhmm. Because he was he was certainly running routes. Don't in one of the routes he posted, he almost fell over too.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Think I he's at least practiced or something. I don't know. Anyway, let me tell you about Railway. Railway is the all in one intelligent cloud provider.
Speaker 1:Use your favorite agents to deploy web apps, service, databases, and more while Railway automatically takes care of scaling monitoring and security.
Speaker 4:Interesting news out of Airwon. Airwon is on their eighteenth location. It's over in Thousand Oaks. And at 20, federal law will force them to start posting calorie information. Leo says we are two Eirwands away from mass rioting across Southern California.
Speaker 4:What what's that other hill is it Hill Hillstone that it that it that is Hillstone has a has a sister restaurant. Am I remembering this correct?
Speaker 3:And they
Speaker 1:had to put calorie information on
Speaker 4:Yeah. They they created like a new iteration, I think, in the restaurant.
Speaker 1:Oh. Oh. So that they could separate Yeah.
Speaker 4:Together with
Speaker 1:that? Because it probably makes the the menu aesthetics a little
Speaker 4:bit less. Yeah. It looks really bad if you're at Yeah. A sit down restaurant and they're showing
Speaker 1:I was somewhere where they had the allergens on the menu. And it was sort of tastefully done, it was actually sort of nice, and like, had a little key and a legend, and kind of post through. I don't think it was a huge chain, or maybe it was. I don't know. Maybe all those rules kick in at a certain point.
Speaker 4:Let's head over to billionaire John Morgan who was on the iced coffee hour. How are Morgan and Morgan? Seemingly Flexing. Like throwing some shots at at Papa John. AI AI founders who who say they're billionaires but Yeah.
Speaker 4:Not necessarily a billionaire in his book. Let's what he has Yeah.
Speaker 1:What's definition? I don't
Speaker 9:consider anybody a billionaire that don't have a real billion in the bank. Guess how many people have a real billion liquid?
Speaker 10:I have how many? Yeah. I don't know how many.
Speaker 9:Maybe 20.
Speaker 10:Papa John was one of them.
Speaker 9:He don't have no.
Speaker 10:He said he put a billion dollar
Speaker 1:he sold
Speaker 10:1.2 and he said he put a billion in dividends. Dividend stocks earning That's five what he told us. I think it's on it's on the record. It's on video.
Speaker 7:You He's
Speaker 4:saying there's only 20 people that have a billion dollars of equities. Financial statements got every I don't
Speaker 9:know. Dollar.
Speaker 4:Every I I do think saying like you actually have to have it in cash. Like, you can't like it can't be earning a meaning you you can't have it invested at all.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah. If you just look at public company founders who still owns shares that are liquid. I mean, maybe there's regulations about when they can sell and he doesn't count that as liquid because if you have to file a certain form with the SEC and sell on a schedule, like, you know, I don't know, like, Benioff sells on a on on a regular basis.
Speaker 4:Daily. Right?
Speaker 1:I think daily. And so and and that's where securities compliance and shareholder transparency and all all these very good reasons. Does that count? I I don't know. This guy's so funny.
Speaker 1:But certainly a good sound bite though.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And John Morgan, I think you were telling me this story. He I don't think gets super involved with politics, but he was I think supporting marijuana legalization. Yeah. Specific seemingly because he's in the injury personal injury business and you might imagine that if you, you know, make marijuana more widely used, more people will get in car accidents.
Speaker 1:I don't know if there's any evidence of that, but it it it was it wasn't odd. Like, of all this, of all the charitable giving you could do, you know, curing cancer and helping solve hunger, yeah, marijuana legalization is pretty low on the list. But, you know, he has his he has his choices. Company watches are in the news. First, let me tell you about Cisco.
Speaker 1:Critical infrastructure for the AI era unlocks seamless real time experiences, a new value with Cisco. Good work is joking about them. So the best rare company watches a thread. Of course, like this goes back to those old Rolexes, the Rolex Air King Domino's edition is a popular one. They also made a Rolex Halliburton, which is a more controversial one, but it it it Halliburton logo actually looks not as jarring as the Domino's logo, which is sort of crazy.
Speaker 1:There's a bunch of various various levels of taste. Good works joking around with an FTX watch. There isn't much time. The Teamsters Union clock in clock out.
Speaker 4:These must be fake. Cabot cheese These are fake.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. These are fake. Those but there are a bunch. Is this x one actually real?
Speaker 1:This one not. No. No. Nate's just joking around. But Google's done them.
Speaker 1:OpenAI's done them. There's been a few other companies that have done these throughout the throughout the year. You used to be able to go to Rolex and and ask them if you were a large company, like, do us a run for thirty year anniversaries of our most tenured employees. That has has slowed down among Rolex, I believe. But I think Tudor is still in the business.
Speaker 1:I know that they did a run with OpenAI and maybe with Google as well, the Black Bay. And there's a there's a few others. What is Jensen wearing though? Shout out to Jensen Wong, CEO of Nvidia wearing the super rare Richard Mill RM 2705 Rafael Nadal.
Speaker 4:They're calling it a GPU on the wrist. This is a beautiful A black well on the wrist.
Speaker 1:Yeah. $3,000,000 price.
Speaker 4:I don't see any I don't see any issue with this.
Speaker 1:Looks good. I wonder what the occasion was. I wonder I wonder if if he got this from someone specific or if he just picked it up for himself. Pretty pretty interesting. I like it.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Wanna change the world? Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange.
Speaker 4:A little back and forth here between TJ Parker and Lloyd Armbrust. Lloyd built an entire pharmaceutical factory so we could sell drugs on the Internet.
Speaker 1:Should we watch the video?
Speaker 4:Let's watch the video.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 5:I'm Lloyd, founder of RoninRx. We manufacture and personalize GLP ones for $78. Yeah. $78 a month for drugs like Ozempic.
Speaker 1:Do you know the reference point?
Speaker 8:Drugs even legit?
Speaker 4:No. Our
Speaker 2:drugs are super legit.
Speaker 1:That's company's dollar shit.
Speaker 5:Doctor. But it's a shot
Speaker 1:for shot remake.
Speaker 7:We collect your health data and use AI to help your doctor personalize it.
Speaker 1:And other companies have taken this Personalize. Video and remade it before.
Speaker 4:You know, this But it kind of out of it's gone out of style a little bit. Well, yeah. But maybe it's coming back.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. It's been long. Yeah. It it it does deliver a lot of information very succinctly.
Speaker 1:And but, yeah, the the the the dollar the the Dollar Shake Club video, I believe, was produced by the Harmon Brothers who went on to create a whole series of these sort of, like, designed to go viral advertisements for startups, and a lot of them did very well.
Speaker 4:Anyways, TJ says farm to table, more like YC to jail, really. Quite aggressive. Kind of thing you post as a unicorn exited founder. Lloyd responds, brother, you sold drugs on the internet for 1,000,000,000 and then taught Amazon how to do it. If this is YC to jail, you built the highway.
Speaker 4:Is You built
Speaker 2:the highway?
Speaker 4:Which is
Speaker 1:the Which is what?
Speaker 4:Are you saying that TJ built the highway that you're on? The highway to To jail. To jail? Anyway, TJ responds and says, you put a smarmy
Speaker 1:Med spa.
Speaker 4:Business on the Internet and are masquerading around as a pharmacist in a white coat as an English major. TJ
Speaker 1:actually has his bona fides as a real pharmacist. So finding out I majored in English is
Speaker 4:They're saying Lloyd might be the the dejaune love of the pharmacy business.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't know. The the putting on the lab coat, little bit of a larp. I I was always joking with one of my cofounders who does have a PhD in biophysics that he should wear a lab coat. And he was like, no.
Speaker 1:I'm not wearing a lab coat. I'm like, you're technically a doctor. Like we should like you should you should go by doctor.
Speaker 4:Rogaz says, bro just wants to sell drugs online peace.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The the thing is is like the the the the rules of the road for pharmaceuticals, for drugs, the FDA, like these have been written. This is not the Internet where it's the Wild West and people don't exactly know what's a social media site. The oh, you know, what can you post section what is it? It's not 83 b.
Speaker 1:You you know the one I'm talking about. Section two sixty or something like two thirty. Section two thirty is sort of something that comes up later. So there's this like move fast and break things approach in the early.com era. Okay.
Speaker 1:Are there regulations around ordering groceries online? Let's just test it out. And but that that that's not the environment in the pharmaceutical industry. And so, TJ knows the rules, and, he's willing to he's willing to enforce them on the timeline every once in a while. He'll he'll let it happen.
Speaker 1:Should we watch this video of this boat? Yes. This was a crazy crazy video. So a boat was going 213 miles an hour at the lake of the Ozarks shootout, which sounds like a great event. Flew in the air after crossing the finish line, flipped and cracked Every
Speaker 4:time I see a video of boats racing like this, it flips. Always. So I just have this I just have this understanding of like if you go that fast Yeah. A boat, you're gonna flip. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But think they do it all the time.
Speaker 1:Yes. I think this is probably a one in a thousand occurrence or one in of 10 a 100,000.
Speaker 4:One in a thousand. Otherwise, every every time.
Speaker 1:But but I agree. To me, it's like one in five boat videos looks like this. So let's play it.
Speaker 7:Oh,
Speaker 1:the slow motion too was really traumatic. Survived, which
Speaker 4:is They actually stuck the landing
Speaker 8:Look at this.
Speaker 4:Pretty cleanly.
Speaker 1:Pretty cleanly.
Speaker 4:Are you No. Wait. Wait for it.
Speaker 7:Wait for it. Smashing it.
Speaker 4:No. They land how they should there's another there's another angle that shows they've landed perfectly, John. This I think they were doing this on purpose.
Speaker 1:I don't like it. This is very, very risky. I do I do wonder. Says, what it feels like to long semis which go up and down 10% every week and end up flat.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Because he landed perfectly.
Speaker 1:I guess, yeah. I mean, one person broke a leg, one person walked away clean. Both survived. Very good news.
Speaker 4:Lot of commentary on What? The new pay packages over at Apple. Chase said, get a degree, get an office job, climb the corporate ladder, retire at 65. Congratulations, Tim. You did exactly what the system told you to do instead of starting your own business.
Speaker 1:He is 65. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, his new pay package as executive chairman
Speaker 1:It's bad.
Speaker 4:Feels a lot better to me Yeah. Than his CEO pay package.
Speaker 1:Lot more flexibility.
Speaker 4:47,000,000 a year. Yeah. Hopefully less work. He deserves a little a little Yeah. Little time away from the action.
Speaker 1:But Turnis making less.
Speaker 4:Turnis making less. I found there's 35 professional athletes that like roughly Yeah. That are gonna be making more than John Turnis next year. Okay. Anyways, I I feel like it's a fair place for him to start.
Speaker 4:I hope he can climb I hope he can 10 x it and then maybe 10 x it again personally. Couple more orders of magnitude would be great. But he's gotta prove himself.
Speaker 1:Yeah. For sure. For sure. What else is going on? Elon is making power turbine components in the journal skeptical.
Speaker 1:They say it won't be easy. He has he ever done anything easy? A guy he chews glass daily. That's his whole shtick. He's he's just doing things that seem impossible.
Speaker 1:Stocks of blade and vein manufacturers fell in response, but the threat to them is still remote. So let's see what the Wall Street Journal had to say. First, I'll tell you about public.com. Investing for those and take it seriously, stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries, and more with great customer service. If you wanna get into blade and vein manufacturing stocks, head over to public.
Speaker 1:Only a few companies make the crucial components for power turbines that AI data centers are so desperate to get. Elon Musk wants to go ahead and make his own. That has unnerved investors in this prized oligopoly. Okay. We're gonna learn about the the power turbine market for a minute.
Speaker 1:Over the weekend, Musk confirmed on X that SpaceX will start making blades and veins that go into natural gas power powered fired power turbine.
Speaker 4:I think Big Turbine wrote this
Speaker 1:You think it's a little coordinated counter counter messaging?
Speaker 4:Yeah. They were enjoying their oligopoly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Maybe. By doing in house casting at SpaceX, we can accelerate natural gas turbines coming a lot coming online by up to eighteen months which is a profound game changer, he wrote in his post, responding to a report from the information. Interesting. Wasn't Sarah Glo mentioning on the Investing the Best podcast that, a lot of the or she was talking to a hyperscaler CEO or someone who was in a place of no that was saying like the bottleneck is real.
Speaker 1:It's very real. And there's nothing in the short term that's gonna come online that will alleviate power generation. So that is where the real bottleneck is at least in the short term. So in mid August, Morgan Stanley published a report saying that SpaceX was planning such a foundry in Bastrop, Texas based on the company's job postings. Shares of Howmet Aerospace fell more than 7% Monday before partially rebounding on Tuesday.
Speaker 1:Helmet and Berkshire Hathaway's precision cast parts are the two biggest players in the market for these parts, which also include bit blades which also include blades and veins for the aerospace and defense sectors. Smaller players, DPC's shares were also hit. It is premature to scout to count SpaceX as a threat, The Wall Street Journal says. The shares of Helmet Aerospace and DPC might have been due for a breather. They are among the priciest artificial intelligence picks and shovels plays at 42 times and 44 five times forward earnings, respectively.
Speaker 1:Turbine makers, GE Vernova and Caterpillar fetch 33 times and 26 times earnings for perspective. And there's a nice chart there to show you the price to earnings or price to forward earnings ratios for some of the AI bottleneck plays and and the the blade and vein manufacturers are up in the upper echelon. DPC is the most vulnerable to disruption in this space. It is small, and about 40% of the revenue comes from natural gas fired turbines. While Howmet holds about half the global market share of components used in natural gas turbines, It is diversified across aerospace and defense with only 11% coming from gas turbines.
Speaker 1:SpaceX will face barriers to entry. One reason there are so few companies in the sector is that it's technically challenging to make the blades, which must withstand extreme temperatures and rapid rotations. That feels like SpaceX's bread and butter though. The casting process makes a involves making a new wax mold from scratch each time. Making these parts requires the blade to be grown in a vacuum furnace as a single crystal of nickel superalloy according to Nigel Chong, an analyst at Semi Analysis.
Speaker 1:Semi Analysis is getting a shout out in The Wall Street Journal. Even a stray grain or hairline defect means the part has to be scrapped, he added. A new manufacturing line could scrap over half of its production for a long period so yield will be difficult to get up. It is also a highly secretive process. Once the parts are produced, the ceramic cores and wax used to make them are destroyed, Helmet's Chief Executive John Plant said at an investor meeting earlier this year.
Speaker 1:He says, we're not getting distilled. Don't worry about it. We're good. We destroy every evidence that would lead someone to be able to copy us. That prevents competitors from reverse engineering them.
Speaker 1:So how met aerospace's annual revenue from industrial gas turbines is up and to the right with incredible forecasts. And you can see the chart taking off. They're going exponential right now. A high scrap rate might make might matter less if SpaceX is making parts for its own use. Morgan Stanley's report noted that we would not expect SpaceX to be a material supplier of blades and veins for supply outside of SpaceX use.
Speaker 1:They're gonna use everything internally. Speaking of industrials, we gotta talk about rotor sails. So there was news in the Financial Times that that Maersk is going to put a wind sail on their container ship and there's a very interesting It's a very interesting design because I see the image for the ship and I'm like
Speaker 4:Looks like a smokestack.
Speaker 1:Where's the sail? Yeah. It looks like a smokestack. And I'm like, okay, does the sail come out of that big round thing? And no, it doesn't.
Speaker 1:That is what's called a rotor sail which actually produces wind force and and accelerates the vehicle without any traditional sails. What do think? So there's an explainer video from Norsepower who makes these that we should watch a little bit of. We can we can kick this off. It's a one minute video, but we we we can watch a little bit of this YouTube video on Norsepower rotor sales because it's a fascinating world I didn't know existed.
Speaker 4:And you need to know this.
Speaker 1:This is a this is crucial. This is crucial. How do Norsepower rotor sails work?
Speaker 11:You might be familiar with curveballs in sports. Oh, yeah. What exactly causes the ball's path to curve? A spinning ball compresses air on one side and thins it on the other. The pressure difference causes power thrust that curves the path.
Speaker 1:If you work at Norsepower,
Speaker 11:the Norsepower rotor sail is a large cylindrical sail. A common misconception is that wind spins it. Instead, it is rotated actively by an electric motor. Spinning sail compresses air
Speaker 8:on the
Speaker 4:Jasper Machad says shut up.
Speaker 2:Rare in front.
Speaker 4:I'm from the founding town in Denmark. Don't believe in the sail though. Take some shots.
Speaker 11:Thrust is created in the same way for the football and the ship. In good conditions, Norsepower rotor sails can actually produce more thrust than the main engine. Norsepower saving fuel and the planet.
Speaker 1:And lastly, there's a photo of a rotary sale on a small catamaran that we think is a steal. I don't know how much this thing would sell for.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Tyler was looking at picking this up because he's been exploring the marinas in the area.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:He wants potentially live on a boat.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, I have the perfect ad read before our next guest joins. Let me tell you about console.com. Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of IT, HR and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. Our next guest is Nikesh Arora, chairman and CEO of Palo Alto Networks.
Speaker 1:He's here after fantastic earnings. How are you doing, Nikesh? Welcome back. Great. How are you guys?
Speaker 1:We're doing fantastically. I
Speaker 2:appreciate the little console plug. Right. Of course.
Speaker 1:We've been very responsive.
Speaker 4:It's hard not to be
Speaker 1:laptop sticker.
Speaker 2:Is it a good company?
Speaker 1:It's a fantastic company. You've heard of it. Right?
Speaker 2:That's a bit late to ask but yeah, should have asked it before. But yeah, I think it's great.
Speaker 1:It is a fantastic company. We love the team over there. I had them on the show multiple times and of course talk about them every single show. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Super excited for you guys to be partnering out.
Speaker 1:But we can get to console later. Let's talk about Palo Alto Networks. What's the newest development this quarter? What is the story that drove this quarter?
Speaker 2:You know, I've been trying for eight years to get the attention of customers to focus on cybersecurity. It's been hard work. Yeah. But I really want to give a shout out to my friend Sam and Dario who did
Speaker 7:a fantastic job
Speaker 2:getting the living bejesus out of everyone.
Speaker 4:They're pretty good. They're a BDR. They're like your best best
Speaker 2:letters protect us on cybersecurity. They talk about MITSH, they talk about Astra. It's amazing. Every CEO, CIO wants to talk about cybersecurity and how do you secure me. I I love it.
Speaker 2:It's amazing. That's what drove a lot of the interest in cybersecurity. Yep. And people have realized that MITOS was interesting because it can find a lot of vulnerabilities and there's a lot of interest. People wanna talk about it.
Speaker 2:They wanna talk about the capabilities of OpenAI. But very soon after the first five, ten minutes becomes about, okay, wait, this is just the beginning. What happens after? When the next bigger, faster model shows up, what do I do? And like, okay, I get it.
Speaker 2:You guys can help me test it. What happens? How do I fight it if I get attacked? And the answer is, well, you can only fight that with some sort of a consolidated platform that sits in the back that looks for this stuff at machine speed and is able to respond at machine speed time, which means you have to fight AI with AI, and that's where Palo Alto comes in because we've spent our life building systems that can respond in near real time or at machine speed to protect them. So that's kind of been the inflection point or pivot that's driven a lot of the interest in cybersecurity over the last six months.
Speaker 2:I think that trend continues to sort of accelerate both from a customer interest level as well as, you know, my friends are continuing to build better, faster models which can be weaponized.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What was the last three to six months like? Because you have these moments where the AI labs are causing a lot of discussion around security and overhanging all of that. I think people were mostly worried about when the open source frontier catches up and the attackers get those level of capabilities. And there's this narrow window that is sort of a window that continues to move continuously but there's a window where Palo Alto Networks and other folks in the security space have to really get the posture correct.
Speaker 1:What actually changed? What was the conversation like? And what like, how did that process go? How much of a boogeyman was open source? Because it was discussed early, there were a bunch of different takes.
Speaker 2:Look, I think what has happened is even in the last six months, you've seen the capabilities of these models continue to rise. I read something that two days ago Sam said that Astra, their new model, is so powerful that they're going to have to clip its wings and trim it down. So that gives you a precursor of things to come. I'm sure those capabilities will be caught up with, whether it's with other frontier LLMs or the open source community, the open source models or Chinese models for that matter. So I think the capability is coming going to come out as hard and fast.
Speaker 2:Now, honestly, just cybersecurity is simple. I never grew up in cybersecurity. I have a very simplistic mental model. If it's bad and you know it's bad, stop it in the perimeter.
Speaker 1:Yeah. All right?
Speaker 2:That's called perimeter security. That's where 80% of our business lives. Yeah. That's where when you find a vulnerability, you found it in the perimeter, stop it, protect yourself. And that's what patching and fixing your vulnerabilities is all about.
Speaker 2:But unfortunately, stuff still gets through. Yeah. That's why breaches happen. It happens because you have a vulnerability that you didn't understand because a credential got hijacked or something got misconfigured. Then the question is, you've to find it quickly and you've got to get rid of it before it creates impact in your organization.
Speaker 2:This find and fix it part is where all this superhuman effort needs to be put in in transforming cybersecurity posture, cybersecurity architectures, ripping out old stuff that can no longer work in machine speed, and I don't think that's going to take two months or three months. That's a three to five year journey. And that's three to five years if everybody sets their mind to it. And you know, I look at life through a cybersecurity lens, so I would like everybody to do that. Unfortunately, my CIO friends are busy.
Speaker 2:Their boss wants them to do coding quickly. They want them to transform the company with AI. They have existential threats because the world is using AI. Why are we not using AI? So the poor CIO has got a lot on their agenda, cybersecurity being one of those things.
Speaker 2:So they're trying to balance all these priorities at the same time. But I will say there is more awareness, heightened attention, and more importantly, whatever they had on their cybersecurity docket, the priorities have shifted in that docket to make sure that they can protect themselves against the impending sort of weaponization of AI models and bad actors getting better and better at this stuff. The trend is our friend. There is positive momentum. The trajectory has changed for the better.
Speaker 2:But don't expect you know, a sudden inflection point that people are suddenly going to come out and say, The first thing I want to buy is cybersecurity.
Speaker 1:Sure. Sure. When when a CIO wants to buy cybersecurity, is the is the economic calculus changing because AI uses tokens? Like is there do they need to shift their thinking from this line item grows along a different axis than what we previously understood the cost and benefits would evolve over time as we scale our network?
Speaker 2:That's a very insightful question, my friend. That's a good question because I don't think if we slapdash frontier AI models in the protection scenario, that is a good economic outcome.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You just cannot do a 5.6 pro Fable 5.1 for every transaction that happens across your network. You're going go That's right.
Speaker 2:Think it. Every day Yeah. We inspect 180 terabytes of data. Yeah. Every day.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You stick anything against it, which has got a sort of a token based economics against it, it doesn't matter what the price of tokens is. Yeah. That's going to come that's going to add up a lot of compute. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That is why what we do today is we write machine learning code where the marginal cost of inspection is zero. Sure. It's hard to beat zero.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 2:So the marginal cost of inspection is zero. We got to figure out how, you know, what's the right balance where I want to use AI in the most intelligent way possible, but I don't want to do it in a way that the marginal cost goes up. Mhmm. The way it's going to work is already we're training small language models Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which are
Speaker 2:going to work on a very small footprint, which will do a specific task. Okay. My job is to stop people going on bad websites. Well, we get 150,000 new websites every day in the world. How do we find them, classify them, stop them?
Speaker 2:Well, let's train a model to identify these bad websites. Let's have it work on the endpoint or your laptop. It's doing that, and that's all it does. Yeah. And you can do that by taking all the collective intelligence that we've built over the last 17, train a small language model, deploy it to the customer where the marginal cost is zero, and my cost of training is $510.15, $20,000.
Speaker 2:Yes. Right? You'll find many of these use cases will be deployed over time where we won't need a Frontier AI LLM. Where we will need Fable five like capability or mid source like capability is in what let me call it the defender model. Sure.
Speaker 2:The defender model has to be as smart as the attacker model.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Now there, there's going to be a debate about token economics. But remember, you're only using defender model in situations where you find that there's a problem. Mhmm. And those are fewer and far between compared to having to inspect all peacetime traffic using tokens. So I think that's where the balance is going to end up from an economics perspective.
Speaker 2:I'm hoping that AI costs don't become a factor in cybersecurity.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Talk about Oh, sorry.
Speaker 4:Talk about social engineering. Mhmm. We we heard yesterday that employees are actually clicking through phishing links at a higher rate than than they were historically simply because a lot of the the grammar being used in in these social engineering attacks is just better? It's harder to immediately clock it. Do people and teams not have their guards up enough?
Speaker 4:What is the solution there? You would think that everyone is reading about the potential risks LLM based, you know, attacks all over the news media. You would think that when they're in their inbox, they're maybe thinking, oh, I won't click this link from, you know that. It's a $20
Speaker 2:gonna tell you a funny story that, you know, we do phishing attack simulation at Palo Alto all the time. Yeah. There's only one time I was tempted to click on it. Thank God I didn't. And I'll tell you why I wasn't.
Speaker 2:Right? So there's this email that came saying it's National Pet Day. Take a picture take a picture of your pet
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And anyone who puts the cutest picture of their pet, they're gonna donate $5,000 to charity.
Speaker 7:Well, tell you. Got windows. I got a window. Okay. That
Speaker 2:like put a little tear in my eye. Thank God I'm not into pets because if I was into pets, I'd be clicking a picture and uploading it and clicking on it.
Speaker 1:That's funny.
Speaker 2:This is where social engineering kicks in. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Very
Speaker 2:will find ways to try and entice the end user to click on this. Yeah. The only way to fix it in the medium term, long term, is start running AI classifiers against the emails to understand whether it's a real email or a phishing attack. Yeah. And it's much better if you can build that into your scanning systems than if you expect every individual to be smart enough to discern whether it's a phishing link or not.
Speaker 2:Now, it was hard to do in the past because you couldn't really read email and get context, but today I'm pretty sure it's a trivial task to train a small model which says, look, this email address looks weird. It doesn't look like it comes from our company. This domain has never been seen in our entire infrastructure. This is talking about something which this domain should never be talking about. All those are simple checks which you can do using a small language model from a scanning perspective.
Speaker 2:So that's going to be the antidote to these much better social engineering attacks that are going on over there.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Speaking of dogs, Ilia posted yesterday and said that Neo Clouds, Ilia only follows three accounts, SSI, OpenAI, and Docx and fan account. Apparently a big dog guy.
Speaker 2:Even after you guys got bought out by OpenAI, he doesn't follow TBPN?
Speaker 1:We gotta get him. We gotta get him on the show. I dressed up as him on Halloween.
Speaker 2:It's an
Speaker 1:honor running these days.
Speaker 4:No. But he was posting that that Neo Clouds need a lot better security. Oh, yeah. Is He feels like it's an important issue. Is that an area that you're focusing or that you will be more focused on?
Speaker 4:Are they too busy
Speaker 2:I actually posted back, send them to us, I'm happy to help. But I am not aware of what he was particularly referring to. Everybody needs a lot of more security. Yes, of course. But I don't I don't actually don't know what he was what he was
Speaker 8:I think
Speaker 1:you were specifically worried about the the like, in the context of the Hugging Face incident, like an agent swarm, an agent state, like, wanting to get more resources and just going into a Neo Cloud to get more inference of themselves.
Speaker 5:That would be think and that would be way of
Speaker 2:hijacking capacity.
Speaker 8:Exactly.
Speaker 2:The good is the good news is there doesn't seem to be much excess capacity out there, so it's hard to hijack capacity. But Yeah. Let's let's hope that
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of a lot of alarm bells are gonna go off if you're like, wait.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think so far Gratitude. It's my understanding, most of the neo clouds are re sort of selling their capacity back to the frontier LLMs. And the frontier LMs will basically build very strong tunnel pipes to basically sort of make it almost like captive capacity. So I'm less fearful that that's going be a problem.
Speaker 2:But yes, at an infrastructure level, everybody needs to put in basic infrastructure security, and I think some of them are. I think some of them are not putting it. They're still in the stages of building their clouds yet. Don't think I think the ones who are built, to be fair to them, are deploying firewalls and technology to make sure that there is no unauthorized access. But maybe Ilya knows more because he's smarter.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What's the state of AI research at Palo Alto Networks? I you mentioned training small models. Is is is it so exciting that you have current employees that want to jump onto that project and reskill and learn the art of training these small models? Are you hiring new AI researchers?
Speaker 1:Is there a specific skill set within AI research that is hyper relevant to that team? What is your strategy for sort of remaining on the frontier of small models that are great at cybersecurity?
Speaker 2:Well, I think there are two or three sets of people we want. Right? One set of people we want who are AI savvy,
Speaker 7:who know
Speaker 2:how to use AI to get their jobs done better, who know how to use coding agents for AI. That should be a lot easier than hiring AI researchers. There, we have pivoted, I think 50% of our new hires in the last six months are early in career.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:These are people who are learning and they're typically having to run through hackathons to get to Palo Alto. Don't look at where you went to school. We care about where you can use coding agents, you can use AI. So that's good because we're pivoting our workforce and if we keep following that trend, it's reasonably likely that we will overwhelm the un AI savvy people with more AI savvy people. That's kind of like ground zero.
Speaker 2:You've to get that done. The second part is there are people who are really good at cybersecurity and know AI and they'd like to get involved. If you want to work in cybersecurity, there's no better place to work than Palo Alto Networks, right? We're the largest cybersecurity company in the world. You want have an impact.
Speaker 2:You want lots of proprietary training data. You've got it. We are lucky given our position that we can attract some of the people who work intersection of cyber and AI. The third part is raw, pure AI researchers who can do wonders with small language models and large language models. There, we have people who are AI literate.
Speaker 2:We have some PhDs in AI who work here who had the cybersecurity ban, but they can go back to their roots in AI. And there, we supplement that capability with third party training companies because they've been doing it around now for multiple customers. So we want to make sure if we can do it once, let's not get it wrong. Let's have somebody who's done it 500 times and bring, not maybe 500 is too many, but twenty, thirty times. Let's bring them as part of the team so we can make sure we're getting it.
Speaker 2:So that's how we're tackling it. Thankfully, don't have to compete with the frontier models for, you know, hardcore AI researchers to build our own, you know Yeah. Big models with multiple parameters.
Speaker 1:No. Totally. Well, we have Andrei from Console here with us on the show. Let's bring him in. And I want to hear about the partnership, how this came together and what the plan
Speaker 2:Look how we bring him
Speaker 1:in. Oh, partner is always right here.
Speaker 2:Oh, there
Speaker 5:he goes. I thought he was thought he
Speaker 1:was remote. Sorry about that. Okay. So
Speaker 7:Oh, god's sake.
Speaker 1:Introduce the the the the the the here. How did you guys start talking? What does the future look like for console at Palo Alto Networks?
Speaker 2:Well, look, we spend a lot of time talking to a lot of startups across the ecosystem, cybersecurity and non cybersecurity. And as we sort of continued our conversations, we ran Andrei and his team. We run a very strong capability, obviously, in security operations and agentifying that. We have a lot of data, as I said, 180 terabytes just upon alternate networks. We have an observability company which looks at it from the outside end to see how customers' infrastructure is running.
Speaker 2:And we run observability for one of the largest frontier LLMs in the world from that vantage point. And as we were talking, Andrei shared what he was working on. When you look at what he's doing, he's taken a very AI native agent first approach to building a product. That is what future of software needs to look like. He's actually hit the nail on the head in terms of how we need to build software for the future.
Speaker 2:That is something which is a rare skill thing that we don't do internally. Then he coupled that capability by looking at the operations of a company, both on the IT side and non IT side, in terms of saying, Well, how can I take that agentic capability build product that sits on top of the underlying systems that work in a company? When we saw that, we thought, Wait. If we could bring the large data lake, the back ends we have in security and IT operations, and we can bring his capability, could we build something that's amazing for our customers? And that's sort of what started the conversation.
Speaker 2:He was a hard nut to crack. He and his partner wanted to do it alone. But I had to use every bit of charm and persuasive skills to convince him and Neil to be part of our alter. I couldn't be more delighted that he's part of the family now.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited for this. We were looking at the console website and in such a short time, you got every single logo on that website. Fantastic execution. What excites you most about the console journey thus far, and what are you most excited for in the next chapter?
Speaker 12:Yes. I mean, first of all, the TBPN sponsorship got us a lot of those a
Speaker 1:lot of those customers. So excited for that.
Speaker 12:That's amazing. Well, a little plug there. I think look. We we started this journey about three years ago, and it's been kind of better than we could have expected. We started in IT, then we've kind of, like, expanded.
Speaker 12:Most of our customers actually use us for more than just IT. It's, you know, HR and legal, security, finance, and so on. And I think what we realized was if we were gonna go broader, you know, go beyond IT, we, I think partnering with a larger customer, larger company that has, you know, works with the largest companies in the world, felt like a natural path. And so I'm excited, I think, for the future where we, you know, can just we have more resources. We can go after the vision at a much, much broader kinda, like, product roadmap.
Speaker 2:Amazing. Well, I wanna hit the We're gonna we're gonna work on the data to get him more excited, but Well, how
Speaker 1:about this first?
Speaker 7:It's the
Speaker 3:first one. About this?
Speaker 7:How about this? Is
Speaker 8:that exciting
Speaker 4:or not? So happy for both Like, of you Andrei, I Yeah. If there was a CEO that work for in my book Yep. You know, especially especially in your category, be Nikesh. Yeah.
Speaker 4:You know, he's like a he's like a you're very, like, fatherly figure, you know. It's true. You're
Speaker 1:Start working on your golf game, buddy. Yeah. Get Start working on your golf game because we're gonna need a lot of birdies.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. He's gonna work, bro. He's going to work.
Speaker 1:No. No.
Speaker 4:Works, you golf.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That's the plan. Yeah. Well, thank you
Speaker 4:guys so much for coming Real for you both. Fantastic. Yeah. Excited to see the progress you make. We'll talk to
Speaker 1:you soon. Have a good one. Bye. Let me tell you about Codex. Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents.
Speaker 1:Whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, automating business workflows, Codex helps you move projects forward from start to finish. Our next guest is from Blue Owl Capital. We have senior director Kurt Tenenbaum. Sorry to keep you waiting Kurt. Thank you so much for joining the show.
Speaker 1:How are you?
Speaker 13:No no worries. Well, know, you had to you had to finish with Nikesh there and give him a hard time about all the all the birdies he's been getting. So I appreciate that. Appreciate that.
Speaker 1:He's a fantastic golfer. Since it's the first time on the show, would love to know a little bit about your focus within the organization and and then I want to go into the the latest deal with Iron but also a little bit of the lineage of this business that Blue Owl's built up. We've seen we like, we've covered the company so much on the show, but I think you're the first person from the organization to join. So very excited to talk to you.
Speaker 13:Yes. And excited to talk to you, Jordan and John. Big big fan
Speaker 8:of the show.
Speaker 13:And thanks for thanks for having thanks for having me on.
Speaker 4:So Awesome.
Speaker 13:Yes. I I at Blue Owl, I focus on our AI compute infrastructure business. And so what that means is we have a big robust data center investing practice. We own over a 100 data centers across the world, about ten ten gigawatts worth of compute. Wow.
Speaker 1:There you
Speaker 13:go. And and but however, that business is really focused on kind of building the underlying data centers. My team is everything that goes in. And so as you guys know well, you spend $25 on a data center, you have to spend $75 on a chip Yeah. On the chips that go inside every five years.
Speaker 13:And so that's what we're really excited about, figuring out ways to partner, figuring out ways to finance that piece of the build out. What's interesting for us because Blue Owl is a diversified asset manager across a bunch of different strategies is we really get to bring the excellence attached to our data center investing business, our direct lending business where we really got our start, as well as our leasing business and bring the combination of all three of those together to be able to provide solutions like Iron, which we're excited to talk to you about Yeah. To to market that we think are differentiated versus many of our other peers.
Speaker 1:Every time I see private credit and data center build out in the news, it's always this discussion about GPU depreciation. Is that an overwrought discussion? Do you feel like you have a stronger feel on that now? We obviously, we've seen a lot of incredibly positive news around depreciation with even a one hundreds getting really high utilization rates long into their life.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That was sort of
Speaker 1:the That that was the fun.
Speaker 4:Primary takeaway from from CoreWeave's Yep. Last earnings call Yep. Was just that they, you know, have these old GPUs that are that are that are gonna be generating revenue well into Yeah. The the
Speaker 1:But I'm curious like is is GPU depreciation actually top of mind for you or is it is it something that you feel like is pretty well understood, pretty solved?
Speaker 13:Yeah. It it's it's a good it's a good question. And listen, the core we have data point is quite notable and something, you know, we and the rest of the market obviously took took took note of. But at Blue Owl, we we don't pretend to have a crystal ball on depreciation or forward rates for GPU levels. Obviously, we're very bullish on them in general, but the way we've invested here is really focused on keeping the duration of the investment we're making relatively short.
Speaker 13:That matches the underlying contracts that we have with some of the AI natives that we are financing, and we're excited about talking about that piece of it as well. And then underwriting Irene as a investor and getting comfortable there. And so it's it's not we are not just hanging our investment on forward depreciation rates for GPUs, although it's something we're obviously very focused on and spending time around.
Speaker 1:What does the current landscape for these types of deals look like? Because we see hyperscalers, sometimes NVIDIA directly doing something that looks a little bit like equipment financing. And I'm wondering if the shape is like, are you competing with people outside of the private credit world at this point? How big is the pool of capital that the data center constructors and operators are actually going after?
Speaker 13:Yeah. I I think this is a moment in time where everyone is gonna have to be invested across the landscape to get to the type of capital needs that we we need. I I actually think at some point, capital may become the limiter or at least one of the limiters attached to it. We're seeing the investment grade market finance chip compute actually quite efficiently, but there's a lot of demand for that. And that demand will continue and will continue to escalate.
Speaker 13:And so the part of the market we're really focused on is the noninvestment grade piece where we think it's a lot harder to get that type of financing. We're able, in the case of IREN, to finance the AI natives, which is a particular pain point and pinch point in the market. And and that's that's where our focus is that's where our focus has really been.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Got it. What are you seeing on the actual data center operator side? And what are the smart players doing to overcome sort of local regulatory hurdles? You know, we've heard there's there's a bunch of ideas being thrown around right now.
Speaker 4:How do you get a local community really bought in? There's the tax revenue component. Some some individuals are gonna be excited about that. Others may be more excited about direct payments. But what are you seeing across the landscape of what's working to actually get projects from the sort of concept stage to powered shell GPUs, you know, actually running.
Speaker 13:Yeah. Listen. That's been a huge focus of the market and of the media recently. I'm not sure I have the exact answer to that as we sit here today, but it's something we as an organization are spending a tremendous amount of time around. And, listen, we really need to engage all the constituents around the table to to get to a solution that, you know, works for AI infrastructure as well as works for, the investors and the operators who are involved as part of that.
Speaker 1:And and most of the time for, I imagine, for equipment financing deals, the powered shell is already up and running. And so, a lot of those concessions, if they need to be made, have already been made. Is that is that roughly right?
Speaker 13:Yeah. That's exactly right. One of the things we like about it is when we fund into these transactions, the compute is basically on the come within a couple weeks. And so that is all that portion of the business is already up and running, and we get to finance very close to where the revenues are actually happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it might also be the case that there is an existing power shell or data center, and they're just upgrading to or something like that and that's where you come in. Is that is that Yeah. Post retrofit. That's exactly Yeah.
Speaker 1:Post retrofit. Yeah. That makes sense. Well, congratulations on the Iron deal. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Come back on as you have more.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We'd love to talk
Speaker 8:Thanks to
Speaker 13:for having me guys. Take care. Have a great
Speaker 1:rest of your day. Cheers. Bye. Let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents.
Speaker 1:We're going to space next.
Speaker 7:That's right.
Speaker 1:We got Philip Johnson. We got a spaceman.
Speaker 4:Cloud. Spaceman.
Speaker 1:How you doing? Welcome back to the show. Good to see you.
Speaker 7:Thanks so
Speaker 8:much for
Speaker 3:having me. Third time.
Speaker 4:Third time. Peed.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's a fascinating business. Attracts a ton of attention. Also, attracting a bunch of capital. What's the latest news for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So we just raised a series a extension, $250,000,000 at a $2,300,000,000. I ain't so bad. With NVIDIA investing, 25,000,000, and Cisco coming in and a bunch of other folks.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. What is the use of funds right now? I imagine that there's still a lot of r and d to do. I'm obviously very optimistic but you know, I when I when I talk when we talk about space data centers generally, we're usually in 2030, maybe 2028. So is there a use for capital right now?
Speaker 1:Or is this sort of more of an opportunistic raise, build a fortress balance sheet and then be able to hire and really build all the key precursor pieces to the actual ongoing business?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think there's a few reasons to to do the raise now. One is to secure launch. So booking launch for 2028, 2029, and that's obviously quite expensive. Another is when we work with I mean, we're doing some pilots with, you know, some of the large data center companies.
Speaker 3:We'll announce that soon. But they want to see a few $100,000,000 on the balance sheet before they'll, you know Sure. Commit their resources to the project. So that's another one. And then the last one is actually moving into much larger manufacturing facilities and starting to ramp up the team, things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That makes sense. What is the state of the the experiments? I mean, I know that you I believe you put a GPU in space, there's other sort of test runs that you're doing. Walk me through the thesis there, what you hope to get out of those tests, what you expect to learn.
Speaker 1:And then also, I imagine that it's also just sort of marketing for the company, like awareness during a time when you're not putting up tons and tons of compute just yet.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. I mentioned we launched the Star Cloud One satellite in November last year. So that had the first NVIDIA h 100 on board.
Speaker 3:It's still going strong. We're doing a whole bunch of tests on that. Really? We managed to yeah. We're we're we're doing the more the more useful workloads we're doing now are high card inference on other satellite imagery, particularly SAR data for various military and government applications.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, we've got three launches booked for next year. So we'll have two going up in q one next year, one towards the end of next year. And we're actually just booking on every, like, every launch provider possible now. So, yeah, we should have some well, I'm not sure if we've we've announced that yet, we'll announce a few other launches that we've booked soon.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Is that, you know, from a, you know, I guess forward looking standpoint, is that going to be important to be diversified from a launch partner standpoint? Because I can imagine when you need to raise the billion dollars, people are gonna be sitting there being like, hey, like, you're dependent on SpaceX and they're also in this business and maybe that's a concern over time. I'm sure right now, Elon is just happy for there to be more compute in space and have other parties, you know, proving out, this thesis. But Yeah.
Speaker 4:Is that is that important?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So to start on the second point, mean, now, yeah, we do have a great relationship with SpaceX. We've signed a contract for the next 25 of our satellites to have their laser terminals on.
Speaker 3:So we'll also be using them for connectivity and we've got a whole bunch of launches booked. But yeah, I mean, I think it's good for the industry in general for for there to be lots of optionality in the launch market. And so, yeah, we're we're keen to encourage, you know, to be a a diverse launch ecosystem.
Speaker 4:Who what what it actually take to lock in launch in 2828 and '29? Are you having to put up a nonrefundable deposit? What what percentage of the of the total cost are you having to actually put up?
Speaker 3:Yeah. For most launch providers, it's sort of 10 to 20% down payment. Refundable if the launch doesn't happen. Mhmm. Although, with the more experimental rockets, if the launch doesn't happen, they probably have larger balance sheet problems than we're us.
Speaker 3:So it's a bit of a bit of a gamble on some of them. I mean, it's the kind of it's the kind of thing we're we're keen to spur on. So we're happy to to put those deposits up.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Well, congratulations on the new funding.
Speaker 4:Great progress.
Speaker 1:The progress. And we'll talk to you Have a good one. Cheers. Let me tell you about Figma. Agents meet the canvas.
Speaker 1:Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with design system context. Up next, have Jimmy Iovine in person. Nice to see you. He is the co founder
Speaker 4:An honor.
Speaker 1:Interscope Record.
Speaker 8:How you doing, man?
Speaker 1:We're doing fantastically. How are
Speaker 8:you? Good.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on down.
Speaker 8:Hey. It wasn't easy. You're far from my house, but it's cool.
Speaker 4:Coming in from?
Speaker 8:Malibu.
Speaker 4:There we go. Do that drive I do that drive every day too.
Speaker 8:Oh, you're Mount? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Senra, me, Huberman, you know? We got a little podcast dynasty out there.
Speaker 8:Oh, great. Great. I'll give you my number. We're out there. Me and my family.
Speaker 8:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And Ben too. Ben Taft.
Speaker 8:Really?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 8:Fantastic. That's great.
Speaker 4:We're all out there.
Speaker 8:That's great.
Speaker 1:How are things going at USC?
Speaker 8:Well, you know, we started this we started the school, you know, it's called IYA, and it's really a school of innovation. Yeah. What happened was in 2014, we sold Beats headphones to Apple. And Beats Music to Apple.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And at Beats, we had a similar experience where we couldn't find people that could collaborate the way Andrei and I wanted them to collaborate.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:You know, so we kinda got into that. We just we would it was very, very difficult. They either were an engineer, design, business. It just they couldn't speak the same language. They didn't understand the why of the other person.
Speaker 8:So, when we went to Apple, it was that on steroids for us, you know. They're a great company, the best company, you know. But we found that at every company we went to, that everything was very siloed and communication, understanding was siloed.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:Not some not just people, but understanding. Mhmm. And so one day I woke up and I just called Drei. I said, Drei, know, the problems that we're having you know, Drei and I really didn't go to school much, you know. And I said, but I got a feeling that this is a problem in education.
Speaker 8:People are learning in a siloed way. You see, 19 to 25 and 26, I don't know about you guys, but that's a big imprint on your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:You know, it's like, you learn a lot in the formative years. Those are really import they were very important for me. Yeah. And I guess that's kinda why the age of college.
Speaker 1:And getting like varied experiences I feel is so important. When I think about my era from 20 from '19 to '26, I studied economics, I learned to program, I started a business, I filmed videos, did marketing. I I it blend it helps to blend all these things together. How old are you? I'm 37.
Speaker 8:Yeah. So you you are you're you're young enough to grow up in a really multidisciplinary environment. But importantly, like a lot of
Speaker 1:that was on my own. I just had to go That's my point. Yeah. I had to do it myself.
Speaker 8:That's my point. Yeah. So now when you come out of high school Yeah. They silo you. Yeah.
Speaker 8:Totally. Okay. You're gonna go work with 60 engineers
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Every day. You're gonna go with Yeah. Go to Wharton, but you're gonna be with 45 accountants every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And there's something wrong with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:So, you know, we stepped in, went to USC and
Speaker 1:How do you map that to or match that with this idea of putting on the blinders? Why does a racehorse wear blinders? Right?
Speaker 8:Well, because every we live in a world now, it's worse than ever Yeah. With social media. Yeah. Everyone cares so much about what somebody else thinks.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 8:I mean, you guy we have people just all day, what do they think of my post? What do they think of my orange what do they think of my orange juice? Who cares?
Speaker 7:Yeah. You know what I mean?
Speaker 8:Would you go to a grocery store and ask everybody what they think? Yeah. You know? Anyway, I'm an older guy, so it doesn't make any sense to me. But, you know, but that's the blinders.
Speaker 8:The blinders are very simple. Run your own race. Yeah. But enter that race with the understanding and the empathy Yeah. Of other disciplines.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 8:We all have that problem in any company you have. The extreme tech side and the extreme design side have trouble communicating.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Maybe not everyone at every company, but most people at most companies. Yeah. And then when you you know, remember we brought 300 people from the creative business into Apple, basically, you know. And Apple's an incredible company, but it's and it's the best of them, by the way. Mhmm.
Speaker 8:By the way. But it's all somewhat siloed. Of course.
Speaker 4:Do you think entrepreneurial people know that they're entrepreneurial for the most part? And I ask that because do you find with the school, there's people that maybe that that aren't applying to be a part of the program, but you actually wanna go and find those people or or Well generally are these people like self selecting and they and they just know they part They of
Speaker 8:know that there aren't many schools that fit who they are. Sure. Right? And a lot, we get a lot of applicants and that's because we fit, we're speaking their language, you know. And think about this, we started this in 2012.
Speaker 8:Mhmm. Now, a lot of schools are saying, okay, we offer multidisciplinary life. You know, they say, okay, you're in an engineering school, but you can go take one course across the hall Yeah. And sit, you know, that's not the joke. No.
Speaker 8:The the what it is is what companies want. Actually, we did research at USC to find what what type of students they want. Number one came back collaborative innovation.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 8:And that's the foundation, you know, our school is really Iovine Young Academy for Innovation. We put in the beginning, tech, design and artwork because we wanted to explain it. Yeah. We wanted to make it literal, like, you know, rock to the forehead kind of, you know, messaging. So, but now, it's fundamentally the Iovine Young Academy of Innovation.
Speaker 8:Mhmm. And because people can't, you need to collaborate to innovate. Mhmm. And you know, look, I'll give you an example. People say, how do you know there were problems at at these companies like this?
Speaker 8:Well, I've been to a lot of them, but I have proof. Here's my proof. Why is it that so few, I want be generous, so few software companies have built successful commercial hardware, consumer electronics.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Why is that?
Speaker 1:No founders in the seats. Run by committee?
Speaker 8:Because, no, they can't collaborate.
Speaker 1:They can't collaborate.
Speaker 8:They can't collaborate.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:You know, now, you know, I mean, Meta's gotten this this piece of hardware out there right now, but they went to I mean, it looks like it looks like they went to Ray Ban, you know. I mean, and it's cool, it'll do okay, know, it'll do fine, whatever. They're a great company, but none of these companies can make hardware, and they all have hardware envy.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:All of them. Yeah.
Speaker 8:You know, and so there's a reason for that. Yeah. And my and my thesis, and mine and Dre's thesis is that this is why. Yeah. Because what was so great about, what is so great about Apple, because it's still in their DNA, is they had Steve Jobs.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:He was the ultimate cross disciplinary human being. Mhmm. Was his in his DNA, where tech meets liberal arts. And when I went, the first time I went up there in 2003, I got it in thirty seconds, because I had gone to five other companies before that and talked to them about piracy and all that stuff. I was on a can't kick about that, you know.
Speaker 8:And I was the the minute I had hello, I met him in ADQ, I said, okay, this is where the party is. You know, and I just went back, I told the people Doug Morris at Universal who was in charge of the place. I said, license this guy. Yeah. Because they they know a lot more about this than anybody in our business and they have feel.
Speaker 8:Okay? So this this school is truly designed behind that meeting. Mhmm. I know it sounds simple, but look, we had an idea. I woke up one day and I called Dre.
Speaker 8:I said, Dre, what about starting a school like this? Hell yeah. You know, by the way, he really talks like that. So we wrote a check for $70,000,000 in a month. That's crazy.
Speaker 8:We're just on one line knowing nothing about education. And we built what I consider a fabulous school.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do you think that there is a is a trap to be avoided with the school around students becoming tracked? Like, they've done the interdisciplinary work and they see this as the best way to get a job at Apple or the best way to get a job at a startup. And in fact, they should be sort of laying back and watching opportunity come to them during this period.
Speaker 8:Well, first of all, they're 22 years old. They can go get a job at Apple and still go change the world. That's true. You know, Steve Steve Jobs had a job. Yeah.
Speaker 8:For Apple, right? Yeah. So, know, nothing wrong with getting experience. I I think it's actually good.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:But it's more important, I mean, look, even the engineering degree, you could see is trying to expand. They get it. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:You can't just it's really not a good environment to work where people just don't understand each other fundamentally. It's it's empathy.
Speaker 1:Do you think that as technology grows and technology progresses, that is creating like a natural widening force? Because it used to be that the instrument was technology, but it was understandable by an artist and now the technology might be seven layers deep in some AI thing that's so abstract and so obscure that that creates
Speaker 8:in 2012, I couldn't spell AI. Yeah. You know. So I had no idea, but it's we built a school that's perfect for it.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 8:You know? Yeah. And because it's what it it makes so much common sense. Yeah. Inside these companies, if you understand the why of the other discipline.
Speaker 8:Mhmm. Otherwise, you're walking, it's a crash.
Speaker 7:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:You know? And that's why Apple can still make great software and great hardware. That that DNA is in those people. Mhmm. It's in Tim Cook.
Speaker 8:It's in Eddie Q, you know. And now, I don't know this fellow, John, but I'm sure he was brought up in the same school.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. He's been there a long time.
Speaker 8:But that's a question that should be asked and will probably never be answered, but why do software companies fail when they go to make hardware?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's tricky. A lot of them have tried. A lot of them have tried.
Speaker 8:Are you kidding?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Yes.
Speaker 1:Basically all of But
Speaker 8:there has to be a reason, Yeah. My reason is better than anybody else's. Maybe somebody else come up with a better idea. But my reason is very convenient for my school.
Speaker 7:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 4:Do you think more entrepreneurs should go back to to the university that that they graduated from and teach a course? Like something that's there's so many lessons that I didn't learn in school and I I won't claim to be an expert on on many things, but if I even had to put together like ninety minutes, I feel like I could save my younger self a lot of time. And it's maybe Of
Speaker 8:course, they should. Everyone should give back. I mean, I think a lot of people do. I see you at UC all the time. I mean, they have they have alumni giving hundreds of millions of dollars to these schools, you know.
Speaker 8:And I show up, I'm sure they go back and talk at them and everything. I spend a lot of time at the school. Mhmm. I try to be very involved, you know. I do.
Speaker 4:Do you think you would have dropped out of your own school? Like, the younger version You of your
Speaker 8:know, here's the thing. If there was I'd have to go for a lot of therapy on dealing with dyslexia first.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 8:You know? I had a lot of trouble reading, and paying attention.
Speaker 1:So I
Speaker 8:don't know what they call that as a there's names for them, you know, but I don't know. Maybe if there was a lot of Prozac back then, maybe I could have focused. But no, I got into I I I just what I got into is I got into I loved music. Right? Mhmm.
Speaker 8:So I got into music and engineering, which is sort of technology side. Right? So I started as a recording engineer.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:So you have to understand the basic principles of technology in order to run a console and
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:You know, fix microphones and do whatever you have to do, you know. So I got lucky. I didn't know what I didn't know I was doing that then, but, you know, I don't know. Not everybody can do that. Mhmm.
Speaker 8:So school is a great thing, but only if you're in an environment that's gonna enhance your creativity and who you are, not take one part of it and put it in a box.
Speaker 4:Yeah. The the funny thing for me is I it took me until I was an adult to realize that I was creative because I remember my, like, formative experience was was in early early school when I'd be in an art class and I'd be told draw this or do that or whatever. I just was not good at drawing. I never was good at drawing. And in my head, like creativity and art was all about drawing.
Speaker 4:Sure. Right? Because that was my first Yeah. Time like doing anything creative in a school setting. So I then I went like almost probably fifteen years thinking I'm not creative.
Speaker 4:Right? And so it took me to being an adult to realize that creativity can have all these Right? Other It's not just like can you draw a pretty picture. Right?
Speaker 8:Well, you could also, you could learn. You could learn creativity. You could learn taste. You could learn all those things. It's somewhere in you where you could learn it.
Speaker 7:That's
Speaker 8:cool. Absolutely. I had no taste when I walked into the record plant in John Lennon's studio in 1973. I had zero taste. I went from three albums with him, two albums with Springsteen, and one album with Patti Smith, and I left with taste.
Speaker 8:Do
Speaker 4:you but but I often find that a lot of people have great taste, but they don't have the ability to create things that meet their taste level. Like Well, that's taste can taste can be inherent in some people.
Speaker 8:You know? What you do then is you have an eye for people that do have the gift.
Speaker 7:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:And you surround yourself
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:With them. You know, I learned that at 19 years old. I I came from I was living in my mother's house in Brooklyn, in Red Hook, Brooklyn. My father was a lone short man. And I met John Lennon and Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 8:I did those records, and I got an apartment. I said, okay. I meet people like this, my life is gonna be okay. I just gotta make sure that I don't get thrown out of the room.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Mhmm.
Speaker 8:So when you're running a company, leave your ego out of it and realize somebody does something better than you. And don't defend anything. Don't defend your ignorance. You know. Just go for it and just say, okay, this person's great.
Speaker 8:I'm going to be of service to this person Yeah. Even if they work for you. Yeah. To get them loyal to your company and loyal to you. And, you know, that's what I always do.
Speaker 8:I just I got a pretty good eye for seeing who's gifted and I make try to make their life as great as possible. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That resonates on a smaller scale where I I knew I would I'm not great at I'm not great at design, I'm not great at, you know, drawing out a logo, for example, but I can find people that can make great logos and and I realized I could at least work with
Speaker 8:Headphones. Yeah. Yeah. We come out of music, me and Dre, so people used to go, well, course, you guys are in a recording studio, of course you knew how to make headphones.
Speaker 7:I even didn't make Where would you
Speaker 8:spell that? If you gave Bruce Springsteen two pieces of wood, he's not coming out with a guitar.
Speaker 1:No way.
Speaker 8:Okay? Or Keith Richard. Yeah. So we had to go and learn. What we did was we found people that really were good at this.
Speaker 8:Mhmm. And bring them in, and we just added the idea of what was wrong. What was wrong is that everyone was listening to music, an entire generation, including yours and yours, on those little free earbuds that Apple would give out.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 8:So Dre said to me, man, that's I spend all day in the studio and my kids are listening on these ridiculous things. So we said, okay. So then we decided we're going to make a headphone. Then everyone tells us you can't to get a great headphone, they'd be like $300 at retail. They said, that's not going to work because Apple gives them away for free and so does Samsung.
Speaker 8:Mhmm. We said, okay, our job is to get them on people's head. Mhmm. Once they hear it, they're not going back. And that's what we did.
Speaker 8:So, we brought culture and we got them on people's head to try them. And then once young people started trying them, they wanted it for Christmas.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Was that expensive? I remember the story of you paying to advertise G Thing. Right? Or
Speaker 8:That was a song.
Speaker 7:That was
Speaker 1:a That was a song. But but it was a contrarian move because I feel like pulling the trigger on a big ad spend before an artist has really broken through is risky, but I that changed your
Speaker 8:I don't I don't know how to spell risk either. Okay. You know what I mean? I just I just I do I wake up in the morning and I do what I feel. Yeah.
Speaker 8:And I do what makes sense. I talk to the people that are around me, and I don't care about the risk. I really don't. I never did. I just do what's right for the project.
Speaker 8:Yeah. And sometimes, you know, you cut a lot flack because, you know, when you're at a big company or something, they budgets and things like that. But I I I just get myself in situations where I leave them if I can't just do what I wanna do. Sure. You know?
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 8:I try to make a life of just doing what I wanna do.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Over the years, how how did you think about bringing in new business partners? You have some early success working with some set of people, you start meeting other great people. In your mind, how are you deciding whether to spend time and partner with Well, new people versus sticking with the band?
Speaker 8:I'm very I'm very positive person. So I always give people the benefit of the doubt and try it, you know. And you could tell pretty quick if something's gonna work or it's not. If it's not, say sorry. And if it does, go in further.
Speaker 8:I try a lot of things. Mhmm. You know, I'm not it's I'm not precious about anything. Once I figure what I'm doing, I'm precious about that.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Mhmm.
Speaker 8:But as far as the education and learning how to get look, we would have never done this school. Yeah. I mean, you know, if we would have been nervous about things, I mean, knew nothing about what we were doing. Yeah. And I think we have one of the best, if not the best school in this area in the country.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:You know? So,
Speaker 1:that's a good thing. There's a, obviously, a big technological transition in music with AI. Going back maybe before streaming, what was the first technological shift you remember in the music industry?
Speaker 8:I mean, Nap Napster, you mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah. We had before before Napster even. Was
Speaker 8:that Well, before Napster there? Mean, we I go back a long time. You know? Stereo.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 8:You know, multi track recording, you know, where do you wanna start? It
Speaker 1:just Yeah. But what was that like? Was there a discussion about it or was it something that just, you know, was adopted behind the scenes and the consumer of
Speaker 8:music It's always the because the stuff like that, it was expensive. Was always the professionals, Like you you could hear the first time a phaser, one of the first times a phaser was used on a record in Jimmy Hendrix. Sure. Know. You could hear when the Beatles got stereo.
Speaker 8:They walked in the studio one day Yeah. Because I knew those guys and and there was two speakers instead of one. Yeah. You know, Paul will tell you, he has told people that he said, okay. They thought at the beginning, oh, twice as loud,
Speaker 1:you Yeah. But There's more to it.
Speaker 8:There's more to it. So, you know, it gone all the way. There's drum machines. Yeah. Drum machine was big.
Speaker 8:Yeah. You know, I I I was fortunate because Roger Lynn used to be a guitar player and he was playing on one of my sessions when he was creating this thing. He had the computer in there with him. Was creating a drum machine. Yeah.
Speaker 8:So I got to see that really early on, but then Prince exploded it. Yeah. You know? So AI is, you know, it's a little different.
Speaker 1:Do you think people thought it was a risk? I mean, I know risk is not in your vocabulary, but for Prince to adopt the drum machine.
Speaker 8:It was bold. Bold. It was very bold. Okay. Because remember, this guy is a great, great musician
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:That had the greatest musicians playing around him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:So he said, I'm gonna simplify. I'm gonna go to a drum machine. Yeah. That's bold Mhmm. And brilliant.
Speaker 8:And he he was one of the guys that exploded it, you know, that really took it went all the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The boldness that feels like that's an they're like, when you're thinking about stereo or the drum machine or synthesizers, there's the an opportunity for boldness on the side of the musician. Yeah. Did that same opportunity for boldness exist in the streaming transition, in the social media era, in the AI era?
Speaker 8:Streaming okay. Let's go to streaming. Yeah. Right? Streaming, you have to go to iTunes first.
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 8:That was very bold.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:Because the record industry didn't wanna license it.
Speaker 7:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:You know, musicians didn't wanna sell their songs at a dollar a time.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 8:But on the other, but out the back door, they were being given away on m p three
Speaker 7:Yeah. You
Speaker 8:know, all day, right? So, what Steve and Eddie had was a really good idea, an elegant way to match their iPod. Mhmm. You know, they had a piece of software that was really elegant and it worked. And these guys understood the culture.
Speaker 8:Steve, my first five conversations with Steve Jobs was about John Lennon and Bob Dylan. He really cared and understood. Hey, you went out with Joan Baez. Right? So he understood the the culture.
Speaker 8:Yeah. And he understood, he had a feel for it, So you that was a big step.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:And then streaming was another big step. Daniel Ek was a brilliant guy, you know. We came to the market. We had Beats Music and Interscope and we sold to Apple and that and then we started we worked with the guys up there and and made Apple Music.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. How do you think streaming changed music production or the decisions that musicians make? I mean, I've heard at least anecdotal evidence that albums got longer or there's more songs because that gives you more shots to go viral in the algorithm.
Speaker 8:Social media. Okay. Social media, unfortunately, like a thing like TikTok, it's it's in a lot of ways, it's great because it gave artists power Mhmm. And a platform to market themselves, which is what artists want and need and should have. But it also made a lot of artists and record company people chase that.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 8:Whatever the latest TikTok thing is, and that could be pretty ridiculous at Right? So I think that affected music more sonically
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:And creatively than streaming did, personally. Maybe more songs or whatever. Yeah. Great. But even that more songs thing came out of SoundCloud
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And TikTok and Instagram, just putting stuff out.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I was was talking to a buddy of mine in Malibu and he's produced twenty, thirty Billboard number ones, like really really impressive career. And he's, for decades now, received people will send him demos and he he always says he likes to listen because he wants to be working with, you know, up and coming talent. And he said, over the last year, it's become harder to judge who's who's got potential and who doesn't because because of AI. Because anybody can make a song that sounds at least decent and maybe there's a thread of a good idea in there.
Speaker 4:And so he said it's just become impossible to understand. And to me that signals that it's gonna become even harder to break into the music business because and suddenly anyone can make a song. Right? Like, Suno, shockingly quickly in about takes, in my experience, about ten seconds to And make there's patterns you can you
Speaker 8:Where do you want to start with this? You just cover a lot of ground, okay?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. But I guess my main question is like, does it become these previous technology trends in music, the professionals, the existing professionals got access to them first. They were expensive to adopt, things like that. Now with AI, anybody in the entire world can get access to it. And I'm wondering, does that mean you're gonna have a lot more people breaking into the music industry or or less just because competition is like
Speaker 8:Well, do you wanna talk about the licensing of AI, the actual use of AI or the production of it? Where do you want to start? Right? You know, where
Speaker 4:Well, specifically, what is it What do you think it means for emerging talent?
Speaker 8:Well, let's use the word talent. If you really have talent, it'll help you. It'll help you create as a tool, you know what I mean? It's like, you asked the right question. Stereo.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 8:It made Sgt. Pepper better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Okay? Yeah. The drum machine made Prince's first album fantastic, you know, or second album, whatever that was. You know, so I think as a tool, it's gonna be fabulous. You know, a lot of these companies that are creating AI music right now are doing so on unlicensed music in mass, like 60,000,000 tracks or something Well, like those, in my opinion, those are gonna be like the kazar of this moment.
Speaker 8:It's gotta get under control to a certain extent that there should be, I mean, this particular case, there there's gonna be some kind of government regulations or there should be something. Right? Yep.
Speaker 1:For proper licensing. If you use Yes. These three influences in the creation of this AI song, those three artists get compensated.
Speaker 8:That's right. The prompts the prompts should get paid.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 8:Right? Yeah. So, but there's a lot of cowboys they're going to run around doing this stuff, you know, but that's not I don't think that's where the, it's going to shine, you know, like can people make songs, you know, easier, lower, blah, Can somebody who was Instagram influencer go out and make a song because they know how to dance and jump around and get people's attention? Possibly. But there's crap now.
Speaker 8:There'll be crap then, there'll be crap now, maybe the crap will get more interesting, who knows? But as far as the great artists, you know, Kendrick Lamar, Alicia, Olivia Dean, you know, some great people that are CMAT, some of these young artists that are just, know, Saint Harrison. Some of these great, great, that could sing Harrison, there ain't no way I can sing like that kid. Yeah. You know?
Speaker 8:So, something like that, you know, is you know, not not gonna they're they're gonna be there. Because you what AI can't do is grow up in a terrible home. AI can't have a broken heart.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 8:You know? So, know, AI is not gonna be Dolly Parton.
Speaker 1:Art has always been about stories. You look at the modern art museum and there's the constant refrain, my kid could have drawn that, but you didn't and there's not providence and there's not a journey and a story
Speaker 8:don't, behind I'm not afraid of AI and I met a lot of people that are working on it and none of them truly scare me, you know. Yeah. It's just, or should scare anyone for that matter you know, so I think it's a tool. Think Dre said last week on some interview that it's a tool Yeah. And that's what it is.
Speaker 8:But the licensing, the artist that it's learning off of, the way this product is look, when the Beatles came out, they were influenced by rich by Little Richard
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And Buddy Holly. Right? Yeah. They didn't get paid. But now, if you're influenced by the Beatles and Doctor Dre, they will get paid.
Speaker 1:And there's
Speaker 8:And I gotta tell this. I I you everyone's always tough on the labels. But I think I'm watching the labels closely and I talk to the guys that are running it quite a bit because I've known them all for years.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:I think they're handling this problem right in the beginning because they have to the the things that are out there just randomly licensing, not licensing, ignoring it
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And thinking that they're gonna I I think that's I don't I don't think that works. Mhmm. It most certainly doesn't I grew up I grew up for the first eighteen years of my life relying on musical artists.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 8:They changed my life and a lot of peoples around me's life. So, that music deserves to be paid.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 8:You don't just come in and think, I don't believe I don't believe that. So I but I'm an older you know, I I, you know, I've been around a long time, so some things are good about that, and some things get a little stale.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:But I believe that how the labels are handling those particular cases is the right way.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, the technology should be able to help here. Of course, there needs to be legal precedent. But I mean, if you look at the way YouTube's handled it, if I upload a video with a doctor Dre song on it, that's that that that the any money that I earn
Speaker 8:from that's gonna route wasn't.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yes. Wasn't. But pretty quickly, and why they sold to Google was they had to pay out a bunch of money.
Speaker 8:Well, because that's going to happen here too.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 8:You know? But but
Speaker 1:The money will flow though.
Speaker 8:But, what but the chain reaction that this causes unfortunately, is the license, the people that are giving out licenses shrink. Sure. They shrink what they're gonna, they they lessen what they're gonna do, and it's gonna cause a lot of this product that everybody's excited about to really be dumbed down.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.
Speaker 8:Alright? So, you know, there are a couple of companies that have gotten licensed, I guarantee you, I don't know, but I guarantee you, in my opinion, sense. That those that product would be dumbed down.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, that
Speaker 8:You know, so where the thing will shine is when you get producers that learn how to do this. Yeah. You know? When when Stereo first came out in Extreme, there were records, Beatle record, where the drums were on the right and the vocal was on the left. Alright?
Speaker 8:But then people learn how to
Speaker 1:Blend things together.
Speaker 8:Blend. So a lot of producers are using AI right now and it's really helping them.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 8:I mean, what they do is they they even copy the AI, you know, the the idea. What's gonna break it'll break a log it breaks a logjam in your head.
Speaker 1:That the best way that you see artists using AI as essentially pre visualization like what happened?
Speaker 2:That's what
Speaker 8:I see. The guys that I know, you know, the producers that I know, I talk to them, you know, and I I I keep in touch with a lot of producers because I was a producer and I relate in the record business. I'm I really relate to record producers that had journey and stuff, you know? So when I was at Innoscope, it was driven by record producers, you know, Swizz Beatz, Pharrell, Dre, Timberland, you know, Will. I.
Speaker 8:Am, Polo Rodan, all these guys who were at Innoscope at one time or another, I hope I didn't leave anybody out, I'm sure I didn't, I'm sorry. But, you know, they they are learning how to use this. They, it will come from them. Mhmm. And, yeah, they'll be, look, there there are artists out now that can barely sing happy birthday.
Speaker 8:Okay.
Speaker 1:About that.
Speaker 8:Okay. So so what's the difference between if you can barely sing happy birthday, if you can't sing happy birthday at all. Right? So that, they will always be boring, silly, you know
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Records like that. Right? But the great artists and the great producers will maybe
Speaker 7:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:Create real masterpieces. Mhmm. You know, because of this, it'll spark something. So I'm very pro AI. I just think Mhmm.
Speaker 8:That in the beginning there's always the wild west in anything like this. You just got you've seen it enough, you just go, okay, it'll but I I I the the guys that are running the labels are really trying to do the right thing here. Mhmm. And I think in this particular case, the artist and the labels are aligned.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's a good point.
Speaker 4:Yeah. What do you think so so knowing some of these entrepreneurs that are building in the space, they would push back and say this within streaming, if somebody was illegally streaming or pirating a song, they are taking a product that an artist and a label produced and they're just consuming that product without without paying, that is objectively wrong. In this situation, they are training on a bunch of music to create something entirely new off of that and they would argue that
Speaker 8:That's fair use?
Speaker 4:They would argue that that's fair use in the way that, like you said, the Beatles, you know, had their own inspiration.
Speaker 8:I know, but that that's the argument, right? Is it fair use or is it a fair use? The artist and the labels think it's not fair use, and somebody who's making a lot of money on a new company thinks it is fair use, But
Speaker 4:here's Those
Speaker 8:are very some convenient arguments.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, and these companies are making money providing a tool. And I'm not I'm actually not taking it aside one way or another, but they're making an art they make money from selling a tool that lets you create music. And but the the what's also happening is people are creating that music, and then they're going back to the labels, and they're going back to artists, and they're making new music that then gets listened to and monetized the normal way. So I would argue in some ways that the music industry and artists are, yes, their music is being used to train models that then create other music, but they are also beneficiaries of that.
Speaker 8:Yeah, but there are some people that are dead. Sure.
Speaker 7:Yeah. So,
Speaker 8:you know, Wilson Pickett is not gonna go out and make a new record. So if you're learning on Wilson Pickett, I believe that his estate should make money. I believe that if you're learning on, you know, some some somebody who's around today, George not George Harrison, you know, like, any of the artists that are around today, where you're learning from their music, they should get the prompts should get paid. Yeah. It's gonna be hard to monitor, hard to police and all that stuff, but they but they'll figure that out, you know.
Speaker 8:I just don't think that, it's I don't think it's fair use. I don't think it's free.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:You know? I just don't.
Speaker 1:That's what Rob I'm Media addiction trials, like big settlements can come decades down the road and be basically benchmarked to revenue and and the money can flow, but it takes a long time to go through the court system. That's just the way
Speaker 8:things are You in know, it's so what? But it has to be done right and
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 8:It's a wonderful technology for music. It's fantastic. But, you know, there's got to be deals made. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Course. Of course. Yeah. Always. What do you think about the future of live performances in the Age of AI?
Speaker 1:It feels like it could be a really important proof of humanity, proof of talent. I went to the show. Sure, maybe there was some auto tune in the loop, but I watched them perform. And if they can perform to a certain level, that gives me more confidence in the rest of their livelihood.
Speaker 8:I happen to be fortunate. I have a really good friend in that business named Michael Rapino. He's the the CEO of Live Nation. Yeah. I I learn a lot about the live business from him.
Speaker 8:Plus, I grew up with my friends playing live all the So time, you I I think live is live, you know. Do do you want to see somebody performing live, spilling their guts on the stage or do you want to see a hologram or something, you know, I don't know. I'd rather see the person live because they're they're just more exciting. So, I don't know. I don't think there's any problem with that.
Speaker 8:I don't think there's I don't think it crosses. I just don't see it, you know. I don't see it, I don't know the future, have no idea. I'm not going to be here anyway. So, but but it's, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 8:I have no idea.
Speaker 1:I would just expect it to to to grow. I don't know. It it feels like the the eras tour was such a moment, and there's these certain moments that happen in American culture where shelling points, everyone comes together around a certain thing and
Speaker 8:Like, you know, it it to me, it's simple. Yeah. You got a new technology. Yeah. It's gonna be great.
Speaker 8:It is great, and it's gonna be even better. People are gonna use it. Yeah. But there's gonna be licenses, and there's gonna be Of course. People get paid for.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And then the great talent and the great artists are gonna show the world how to use it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 8:It's that simple to Yeah. It happens every time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:You know? So I'm not I I I it all comes down to what we talked about first, which is which is what's great about this is it's teaching young people, that's where multidisciplinary behavior comes in. This is technology. Mhmm. You're creative.
Speaker 8:Mhmm. Right? So when you really understand technology and you really understand the creative, you're gonna really do well. Yeah. So, but you so you shouldn't be siloed in school.
Speaker 8:You shouldn't go to a school where all you do is play the guitar all day. You know what I mean? It's just to me, that doesn't work. Yeah. It's I mean, Juilliard's a nice place and I'm glad it exists, but or Berkeley, whatever, you know, but it's not it's not where I see the world going.
Speaker 8:And not if anybody cares, but me personally, I'm on this show as you two guys care. So
Speaker 1:Do you think AI can help bridge that original gap that we were talking about? When I think about what it takes for a creative person to build a hardware product, for example. There's a lot of technical hurdles that can now be broken down Before
Speaker 8:there were things to break it down.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Let's put it this way. Dre and I had a record company. Yeah. Okay? We're creative people.
Speaker 8:We're both record producers. We built the biggest headphone company in the world. That's hardware. Yeah. And the reason why it's hard because it's goddamn hard.
Speaker 8:Yep. Okay? That's why not not everybody does it. So we did it. Yeah.
Speaker 8:Right? We're creative guys that built a piece of hardware. That's why we started the school. Yeah. It it's all needs to be working together.
Speaker 8:Yeah. You know? And we we built the number one Beats was the number one headphone in 50 countries when we sold to Apple. Yeah. So we did it.
Speaker 8:Yeah. And because we live in a multidisciplinary world. We were both recording engineers, me and Dre.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And so we come from the non wall background. Mhmm. Know? And so that's why we built a
Speaker 1:school. Yeah.
Speaker 8:It's that's it. And, you know, it's but when I go when you go look at these these most companies right now, technology, design, engineering, design
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 8:There's a lack of communication and a lack of understanding.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Again, I asked the question again in case somebody just tuned in. Yeah. Why can software companies not build really successful consumer products? Yeah. There has to be an I don't have the answer, but you guys are really smart, and you talk to everybody in the world.
Speaker 8:Yeah. I don't know why.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's tough.
Speaker 8:You know? But there has to be something at the core of what's going on that challenges that. I mean, no one can say, no, he's wrong. No, I'm right.
Speaker 4:No, you're Yeah, you know, one of the things you brought up Meta. No, no, no, You brought up Meta.
Speaker 7:One of
Speaker 4:the, I think one of the reasons that's been successful is they didn't try to reinvent too many things. They just made a good looking pair of glasses that also had a camera in it. And that was enough. That's been enough.
Speaker 8:But they sold 2,000,000. Yeah. They didn't sell 20,000,000. We sold 2,000,000 headphones in Brooklyn, you know. It's not a really it's not a massively successful Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wired Oculus to get the to get the
Speaker 8:By whole project the way, in fairness
Speaker 4:I would argue that. Different.
Speaker 8:I have a pair and I enjoy using it. Yeah. It's fun. But that does not a story make yet.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 8:They make now I know who they hired, the head of the hardware division, and he's really good. Mhmm. So, but are there people at that company that can really communicate and and empower him and that type of stuff? I don't know. Right?
Speaker 8:I don't know. Meta's a great company. Mark Zuckerberg is brilliant. Yeah. But do I know about that?
Speaker 8:I don't know. They did they've done a good job at getting that product out.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Do you is is I feel like one of the big the big lessons that people in the school should should hopefully should hopefully be imprinted on their minds is that you can be wildly successful in business without creating anything that's exactly new. Right? Like you you guys didn't create you created desire and you created an amazing product, but you didn't create the headphone. And I think that when a lot of people think about entrepreneurship and creativity and business, they think I need to come up with some totally novel idea.
Speaker 4:Right?
Speaker 7:Well, it's
Speaker 8:your thoughts out by, I don't think I'm Steve Jobs. Okay?
Speaker 4:Even Steve didn't he didn't the didn't create the phone.
Speaker 8:No. But he he had a much bolder attitude towards life than I did. He's much smarter than I am. Right? Somebody asked me what's difference between you and Steve Jobs?
Speaker 8:They're very simply smarter than me. When we were hanging out together. But no, you don't have to invent something new. I mean, headphones weren't new, but the attitude of headphone was Yeah. Bose was out there saying, buy my headphone for $300 and we're going to help you sleep.
Speaker 8:We were like, this is taking candy from a baby. Yeah. Right? Yeah. We are not going to help you sleep.
Speaker 8:Yeah. You know, we are going to rock your head.
Speaker 1:The ads were silence, not music. Know, was the opposite of music.
Speaker 8:Exactly. So we had a real edge there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And they all looked like medical equipment.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 8:So your job as an entrepreneur is to find that hole Yeah. In the market, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Where's there a hole? We knew there was a hole there because Dre, first of all, most computers had their speakers facing the table. Yeah. So that was like, okay, great, let's face them up. Yeah.
Speaker 8:You know, we're geniuses, let's
Speaker 7:go to the computer, you know,
Speaker 8:right? So
Speaker 4:No, there's so many times when you're looking at different categories, specifically with, I I find it with consumer products where you're like, is there like a law that says that it has to be done this And No. Oftentimes you do a little bit of research and you realize We're
Speaker 8:going back to the to understanding each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Computers, like I went to a couple of computer companies, not Apple, right? And I witnessed this firsthand to where engineering audio, the audio budget in a speed in a computer at the time was 50¢.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 8:Okay? Wow. It's nothing. Right. It's nothing.
Speaker 8:So you wanna know why and music was being played through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 8:Guess what? That's not enough. Yeah. You know? So, but that's where the breakdown is.
Speaker 8:Yeah. Because design and engineering clash.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And that's where, I keep saying it over and over again, it's true, that's where our school comes in to help training people that are going to become the new engineers and the new designers and the new entrepreneurs to understand the why of each other's discipline. You know, it sounds like kumbaya, but it's not. You know, it's real.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Was there anything else you looked at in terms of product ideas, business ideas before settling on headphones or was
Speaker 8:it Well, it came out of a real frustration of the record business because record business, again, the record business at a time was really cool and, you know, music was the right thing to do and all that. But when when when I met Steve and those guys, cool had moved the technology and I felt it. You know, I felt I felt the shift and I said, okay. The first guy that was really cool with technology was Morita from Sony. The original founder of Sony.
Speaker 8:He had the Walkman, you He really got it. Oga, who replaced him, really got it. They he bought Columbia Pictures and Columbia Records.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 8:Right? And then they kind of screwed it up because they got and that gave Steve, that gave Apple the opening
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 8:To go take that idea
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Which Steve has said many times publicly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And so, when I saw that, I said we have to learn a new trick. We have to move lat I believe companies need to move laterally. Mhmm. I do. I felt the in I felt record companies especially needed to move laterally.
Speaker 8:That's why we created Beats and Beats music inside of Interscope. Mhmm. We did it at the company. Mhmm. So we built a company in Beats that was bigger than Interscope in six years.
Speaker 8:Mhmm. Right? So obviously, tech and design and creativity all belongs in the same box. It's all just moving your company lateral. Like, we have a company called Complex right now.
Speaker 8:Yeah. And what we're trying to do there, we brought back Marc Echo, we have Arora Levant, my son Jamie's there. And we're trying, we have a real, a lot of really good people and we're trying to mix disciplines in it and we are creating an AI product alongside of it that will blend all these things together and not all of them, but things that we have together because we're firm believers in that. You you know, the record industry needs to move laterally. They need to own the enterprise of AI, not just license to everyone.
Speaker 8:That's, you know
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Interesting.
Speaker 8:They should own the enterprise. Why not? You know, it is no reason why not. Instead of licensing to everyone
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Own the enterprise yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Right? We own Beats.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Why is there so much historical sort of disaggregation in the music industry? Like, the the actual relationship between the artist and the end consumer, it's always been intermediated and it feels like that's been a problem.
Speaker 8:It's insane and it's ridiculous. Mhmm. Okay? All artists want is to able to communicate with their audience. Yeah.
Speaker 8:And ask me why Spotify and Apple Music don't have social.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:I know why Apple Music doesn't and I don't know why Spotify doesn't, but that's why I said on an interview once recently that streaming is is minutes away from being obsolete. What I meant by that is unless they adapt to what artists really want Mhmm. The artists are very resourceful. Mhmm. Right now they got to go to Instagram, TikTok, you know, it's like it's like a silly game.
Speaker 8:Yeah. And that has to be fixed. That has to be fixed quickly because and the labels who have all this historic music need to be in the loop. They, whether they like it or not, they are a tech company. Mhmm.
Speaker 8:And they have to adjust to that. And if they don't, I believe it's not gonna be great for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. The the the Spotify story is interesting. I mean, Sean Parker obviously involved in both Facebook and Spotify. And so I think they had this like delicate truce.
Speaker 1:Because if you remember in the early days of Spotify, everything you'd listen to would be shared on Facebook. That was a huge growth driver.
Speaker 8:But that's not why Spotify is not social.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 8:I don't believe that. That's why Apple's not social because Apple Music because they don't look, when we were there, we wanted to buy Musically.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Woah. Woah. We
Speaker 8:brought those guys up there twice, but Apple doesn't do social and they shouldn't do social. Okay. I get why they shouldn't. Yeah. I was
Speaker 2:on the tail.
Speaker 8:Yeah. I was on the tail wagging the dog. Yeah. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:I was on the tail. So, you know, I understood why I didn't do it. Yeah. But we, Trent Reznor and I instinctively knew, especially Trent
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 8:That we needed social.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And it's gonna be limited without that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:So, you know, look, Apple, I I so far out of all the companies I found, they're they're still the most interesting, you know. Because they still have that DNA in them. Just said, we're not gonna, we don't do social. Fine. Mhmm.
Speaker 8:They don't. So that was not a good fit. Mhmm. You know, so, but that's cool. But doesn't mean that music doesn't need it.
Speaker 8:Right now, you're not giving the artist what they
Speaker 1:want. Yeah.
Speaker 8:And the pay structure in streaming is all screwed up. Mhmm. So if you're married, I see you're married, you got a ring on your fingers, or maybe you have kids. If you have two or three kids, you have the family plan.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 8:If you listen to what's your favorite music? Don't take
Speaker 4:My favorite artist is Yeet.
Speaker 8:Yeet? Yeah. Oh, great. Okay. So you listen to that and your kids listen to?
Speaker 8:Alma. Oh, they're babies. Okay. Well, let's they listen to Taylor Swift and Kendrick Lamar, and you listen to Fleetwood Mac and
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And Madonna. Right?
Speaker 1:I'm paying, but the kids are listening disproportionately.
Speaker 8:Yes. They've been on the button all day. Yeah. Yeah. So guess who gets paid
Speaker 1:all you pay the bill but paid.
Speaker 4:Crazy.
Speaker 8:Yeah. But Fleetwood Mac doesn't get any
Speaker 4:is raking it in.
Speaker 7:Yeah. Exactly. No, seriously.
Speaker 8:Exactly. But that's that's the structure.
Speaker 1:So Yeah.
Speaker 8:Streaming is flawed
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 8:And not complete. But Daniel's brilliant, Alex is really talented
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Those guys at Spotify, so they're going to figure a lot out. They may be thinking of a whole other paradigm that I don't even understand. Right? So, but someone who helped bring streaming service to light Yeah. I can tell you that they're all missing social.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Period. And that's why I have a crew of guys and girls that I work with. We're looking at something right now that's really interesting. We're doing it with one of the one of the main companies. And we have an idea that we believe is unique and good and great for the artist and great for the labels.
Speaker 8:Mhmm. And that's what we're gonna do.
Speaker 4:Yeah. We have we've had some guys from Spotify on and I think that one of the interactions I was most excited about that they've been working on and working towards is making sure that the people that are listening to artists the most get access to the concert tickets, right? Because an artist doesn't necessarily benefit if
Speaker 8:they Yeah, sell that's self serving, you know? I mean, I get it, but the artist should be doing that.
Speaker 4:Sure. Yeah.
Speaker 8:Yeah. Again, you don't need third parties to do a lot of this stuff, Why you why do the labels need third parties to deliver their music? I'll tell you why, they don't. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 8:But they do. Right? That all should evolve with the artist in the front of the paradigm, you know, making the money and doing great and communicating. So
Speaker 2:You're
Speaker 1:not You're not differently in in Hollywood with with Disney plus and and Hulu
Speaker 8:Well, that that venture Well, hang on. No? Yes and no. Well, I'll tell you why. Please.
Speaker 8:Because when Netflix came to town
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 8:They came to town with a big checkbook. Yeah. And unfortunately, all these companies are public. Now this, I'm gonna make this official. This is my opinion.
Speaker 8:Okay? But they all licensed them their music. At least most of them did. Why? Because they got big checks and helped make their numbers.
Speaker 8:Well, what? They created a monster.
Speaker 7:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:They did.
Speaker 8:Alright? And now they're trying to catch up. Right? Music business is the same thing. They license their music to Spotify, Apple Music, and Amazon.
Speaker 8:Well, Spotify is worth more than all the labels together. Yeah. Guess what? Guess how much IP they own? Zero.
Speaker 8:Somebody's podcast maybe or something. Yeah. You know, maybe the Rogan. Yeah. I don't know.
Speaker 7:I don't
Speaker 8:even think we
Speaker 4:got Yeah. But
Speaker 8:that's but that's the point. So the movie business didn't get it. Yeah. They they got it late. At least they got it.
Speaker 8:Yep. And I think that's gonna happen in music. I think the music companies are, you know, are going to be more involved and AI is the opening to do it. Mhmm. AI is the road to that doesn't mean Spotify is not, but Spotify is going to have to morph as well.
Speaker 8:Mhmm. Okay? They can't just no ride goes forever. When I was a kid, not a kid, I'm sorry. I wasn't a kid.
Speaker 8:It was 2002. Mhmm. Just a I was nowhere
Speaker 4:near Just a a spring chicken.
Speaker 8:I was nowhere near a kid in 2002. But when I saw Piracy, I went and met with three tech companies. And one of the tech companies, very high up guy at Intel Mhmm. Said to me, Jimmy, this is a I started talking about the recording studio and the people that are suffering, and you know, that's not the big stars, it's the kids in the studios, and Mhmm. He said, what a fabulous story.
Speaker 8:He said, Jimmy, but not every industry was made to last forever.
Speaker 7:That was powerful. Right?
Speaker 8:I said, he's right.
Speaker 4:Sorry, this music thing had a good run
Speaker 8:about music. But it's not music, it's the business of music, what that looks like, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:So I I carried that with me. Yeah. And then when I met Steve and Eddie after that, said, shit, these guys Mhmm. They're the next step.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Right? So there is a next step now, and and Spotify may grab it. Mhmm. You know, have all the tools available and the money, the capital and everything.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:So they could recreate their business all the time. And you got a guy like Alex running it who's really really talented. The people at Apple are really talented. You got Oliver and that team over there. They're all really good.
Speaker 8:So maybe they'll morph the company into something that it needs to be or maybe the labels will figure it out and they'll do more of what this new model needs to be. Mhmm. But to have, to be just a licensor of music, to me, first of all is boring.
Speaker 9:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:Second of all, has nothing to do with any other discipline in the world. Mhmm. It doesn't. Yeah. And you need to, to have a proper company today, you have to have blend of disciplines inside your company.
Speaker 8:Mhmm. Proven by two great, great people, Marita from Sony and Steve Jobs at Apple. Yeah. Period.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:They got it top to bottom, and they set the tone. Who out there doesn't want to be Steve Jobs? Right? They, you know, they they everybody's every he's the new Steve Jobs. This is he's the old Steve Jobs, you know.
Speaker 8:He's not Steve Jobs. He is Steve Jobs. Yeah. But
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's saying something I've never everyone wants to be and yet I've never seen someone and thought, damn, they're the new Steve Jobs.
Speaker 8:Yeah. Of course, they're they're missing what Steve was. Yeah. Steve was the ultimate. He knew it.
Speaker 8:He knew the goal was where technology and the liberal arts meet. And there's nothing more evident in that than in AI. Yeah. You know? So
Speaker 1:Do you think you would have liked AI?
Speaker 8:I don't know. I I can't I never tried. I was a friend of mine. Yeah. He has an incredible wife, Lorene Powell Jobs, who's an incredible human being.
Speaker 8:Yeah. And Johnny Iovine was
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Incredible people. I can't speak for them. For Steve, he was his own guy, but, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. A friend of the show was trying to compare AI messaging to the launch of GarageBand and democratization of creative tools and I thought I I I thought there were some good points there.
Speaker 8:Although he didn't like streaming. Yeah. He was very public about that. Yeah. But who knows what maybe
Speaker 1:he was right. Don't know. You mentioned the tail wagging the dog at Apple. If you're a tail, should you try and wag the dog? Is that advice that you would give to someone who works in a large organization if they're interdisciplinary?
Speaker 8:Well, when you what I was saying what I was saying is that, look, there's no there's no hiding it. Big companies, music, outside of music companies, nobody wants a tail wagging a dog.
Speaker 1:But is it a fool's errand to try?
Speaker 8:I I don't know. Mhmm. Don't know.
Speaker 1:Depends on the situation.
Speaker 8:I don't know. But but I always use Apple as an example because I think it's run really well.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 8:they blend it as well as you could blend it. Steve was a big music guy and so So was they do it really well. But, you know, it's I don't I think I think the record company should do it. I really do. I I don't get it.
Speaker 8:I I think that they should do it. They should take it on themselves. And Spotify is a music company. They they can do it. Live Nation.
Speaker 4:Isn't there some interesting positioning that the record companies, at least if they banded together, could work with the artist to say, hey, you have not if you work with if you if you subscribe to Apple Music or Spotify, Spotify and Apple Music are taking a big cut. If you work with us, a lot more revenue is actually going to the artist. Is that is that like how you position it?
Speaker 8:I don't I don't I don't know. I don't know if that's if that's right. I just because it's it's hard it's a hard bell to unring.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:I'm a I'm a look at it streaming. That happened already. I don't think the label's gonna start streaming service. Mhmm. You know, not in any time short in the next few years anyway.
Speaker 8:But I do think there could be a new AI business.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And that's where the opportunity lies and you have Spotify, you have the labels, you have the artists. So there's something in there that needs to evolve out of this that makes more sense. You know? And I I see I see it all together. I but I always have.
Speaker 8:That's why that's why we started the school we started. Yeah. It just all goes back to that. It's just the way people think. That's how we think.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I mean, obviously, the answer is probably both, but I would It'd be interested to see if you're more optimistic about the entrepreneurship that comes out of your school or the transformation within within industry.
Speaker 8:No. The school was built to transform inside the industry.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 8:Yeah. Was it was built for jobs. It turned into an entrepreneurial place.
Speaker 1:Of course.
Speaker 8:You know, I guess we caught that wave. Yeah. You know, everybody wanting to be like one of these guys, Zuckerberg or something. Sure. But it was made to help communication inside Mhmm.
Speaker 8:Apple Yeah. Google, all these giant companies that are taking over the entertainment business Yeah. Literally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 8:So it's not going happen in my lifetime, but we wanted to build as many people as possible to infiltrate and help make that all one thing rather than have to be a tail wagging a dog, you know. I mean, look, Intel's buying Paramount and Warner, right? I mean, fundamentally, I mean, and David Ellison is terrific. Know, he's a really smart and and understands where these two things cross. So hopefully, there'll be some great stuff there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's gonna be exciting. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 8:Hey, you're welcome.
Speaker 1:An honor and pleasure.
Speaker 8:It was fun.
Speaker 4:Let's do
Speaker 1:it again as we're making some
Speaker 4:more of these plays.
Speaker 8:Oh, I don't But it was you're you're very far from my house. Maybe if you come to my house, we can
Speaker 1:do it But over
Speaker 8:anyway, thanks all there's a big world behind me. I see that. Love that. Nice set. Yeah.
Speaker 8:Thank you. Lighting and so
Speaker 4:We reinvented television.
Speaker 1:Well, we will see you tomorrow at the lightning Thanks
Speaker 4:being folks.
Speaker 1:Sharp. Have a great rest of your day and goodbye.
Speaker 8:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Don't fade us out.