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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Good morning.
Hey, what's up?
Not much.
I am actually quite excited about this conversation.
Hopefully people who have been listening actually enjoy
a bit more of the research because I find that the episodes where I'm able to do that I'm so much more I don't know invested or interested in
It just Yeah Scott's getting pumped.
Yeah, well I feel like I'm learning so much.
Yeah.
I get to r read all kinds of interesting research and articles that otherwise I wouldn't
It's so fun.
So it's nice that if you're a nerd like us.
Yeah, well exactly.
We're both we're both nerds, so it makes sense, but you know what was funny, yesterday I was picking our daughter up from a birthday party at school and a bunch of her friends ran up
To me.
They're like, Mrs.
Vanderbeer, it's so good to see you.
And I was like, Mrs.
Vanderbeer?
No.
No.
I just thought that.
Like I know that's like not this top.
Like we're talking about peers
But I just that was the first time.
Like usually our friends' kids call us like Aunt Jess and Uncle Scott or Miss Jess or whatever.
Like I'm
That was the first time I've been called Mrs.
Van Der Weir and I was like, Huh.
I'm not loving it.
That's Scott's grandmother.
That's not
Yeah, right.
Like that to me, your grandma, who I adore, is like a Mrs.
Vanderbury.
Like not me.
Anyway, it's Miss Jess.
Or Aunt Jess.
Yeah.
I just thought that was hilarious.
Immediately.
But it's just like this group of like eight-year-old girls.
Mrs.
Vandermeer, oh my goodness.
I just thought.
Oh they were excited to see you.
And they're happy to see me.
Yeah, yeah.
Was our daughter excited to see you?
No, she was not excited.
No.
Of course.
Well, and hence the reason for us wanting to talk about this.
It really is.
And I feel that it's only been somewhat recently that she has just started kicking off
In this stage of being embarrassed of us.
Mm-hmm.
I saw some people calling it like the parent allergy.
Yeah.
Which I found quite interesting.
It's all of a sudden they develop this allergy to their parents.
Which is not quite in public only.
Yeah, in public
Well and eventually it can become within the household too, but at this stage of life.
Because she's eight
I think it's just it seems like it's just starting and based on the research, that makes sense.
It's right around the time where they start to develop this.
Yeah.
So to kick things off, I want to go back in time because I've heard so many stories about how grumpy you were
as a teen and whatever, as a kid.
I have poor parents.
And how you were constantly annoyed with or embarrassed by your parents.
So can you remember a specific moment when you were like acutely embarrassed
by your parents?
Well, I feel like I've talked about this.
Like I don't remember being like our daughter, like being so embarrassed.
But you were mostly annoyed?
With them?
Yeah, like I feel like in the house it'd be like, Ugh, you don't get it and like just run up to my room and slam the door.
You know, it was more like moody.
Like I definitely remember being very moody.
Being like, you want me to go on a walk?
I hate going on walks.
I'm never going like that.
And they're like, Jessie, you always love going on walks.
I'm like, I hate it.
But were you like that already at eight?
Or did that
No, like probably around that age, I think, is when it would start.
When I would start to get kind of reachy, very moody.
Don't tell me what to do.
Don't make me do my homework.
Goes off and around homework.
Don't help me like that.
It's the wrong way to help me.
Everyone in this family's wrong.
And like not that I was moody all the time, but definitely as I got to that.
pre-puberty, kind of like that tween age.
I definitely remember getting moodier with my family.
There's a few pictures of me on family vacations where I'm just sitting there like a side eye.
Yes
Side eye to the whole family.
A bunch of great photos.
Even though my parents were like great and they're like genuinely, and this is where I laugh with my parents.
I'm like, oh my goodness, we're going through the same thing.
And she's not nearly where I was.
I wouldn't say she's moody at all.
Uh depends.
Sometimes she can be, like with her sisters even.
Sometimes I'll hear it.
Oh
Like so instantly so mad.
But don't you think that's somewhat reasonable?
Oh yeah.
I think it's totally normal.
I feel like that's a reasonable thing to be upset about versus it sounds like you were a little unreasonable with
But like that's as I got older and more into puberty and the teen years, you know.
But I actually I will say a moment of being embarrassed doesn't really come to mind from my parents.
Like I've embarrassed myself.
Plenty of times.
Maybe I was just more embarrassed about myself.
Again, makes sense based on what I was finding in the research.
Yeah, like I more so would remember
the tiniest moments that I embarrassed myself, like showing up to school and I didn't wash all the shampoo out of my ears properly and everyone was like, You have shampoo in your ears.
you know, like just kinda lit lingering shampoo and me being like, Oh, like it's so embarrassed, you know, try and wash it out.
I think like I have a lot more embarrassment and shame lived really close to the surface for me in the things I did for myself and that's what I remember.
More so than my parents embarrassing me.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And going back to our episode on impulse control, where we talked about the developing brain, that does make a lot of sense.
And just as a refresher, there's what
they call the great imbalance in the brain where the limbic system, which is the emotional center of the brain, it's let's say the more ancient part of the brain, that controls your quick feelings and reactions to things, that develops at a faster rate, starting around
that age, like the let's say nine to thirteen age during puberty years.
So that's starting to develop faster than the prefrontal cortex.
And I saw one article just
I think described it quite well where they said the this period, so when kids start going through puberty and their brain develops differently.
their brain has this powerful accelerator, but underdeveloped brakes.
So the powerful accelerator is the limbic system able to help them make quick decisions, do things quickly, react quickly
But then their prefrontal cortex, which is the logical aspect of the brain, is not developed enough to actually hit the brakes or hit the brakes fast enough at least.
Yeah.
I thought that was a great way of describing it.
So it makes kids going through this teens more prone to emotional and impulsive decisions, especially
So there's been a bunch of research on this.
And again, if you are interested, go back to that impulse control episode.
But especially in social situations.
So as soon as there are other kids around
their age or even if they just perceive that someone else their age is watching, they change the way they make decisions.
It's fascinating.
It is fascinating.
But that's a part of the development of
humans like we all went through it.
Everyone was there.
But I love the idea of the brakes.
Like your kid is going full speed ahead, but they don't necessarily know when or how or are able to activate the brake
And so sometimes then they say things that they wish they didn't say, and then they feel the embarrassment of that, or they try and morph in with their friends and they do something they wish they wouldn't have done, right?
And I think
that's where these years are very difficult in terms of friendships, in terms of feelings of shame or embarrassment because they do things and then they're like, oh, I wish I could pull that back.
And like
As adults, we can all relate to that feeling too, but it's so much more amplified when you're that age.
Well, and another thing that I don't know if we mentioned in the other episode.
But I thought was important to note is that the adolescent brain or the brain going through puberty, or even like think about your child.
is not broken or defective, nor is it, one article described it as they don't have an adult brain with less experience.
They fundamentally have a different structured brain
And it's actually going through all of these stages of change.
So pruning and neural pathways are strengthening.
But it's a fundamentally different
structure.
So it's not the same as ours, just with less experience, so they are just less mature because they don't have the experience or knowledge that we have.
It's literally they have a different structure in their brain at the moment.
And they're
it's developing, it's changing up until mid to late twenties.
Yeah.
Which I I just I've never read something that was so clear.
On that, which I th I don't know.
I thought that was important to note.
Yeah, I've said this often in terms of kids are not mini adults and
Teens are not many adults and tweens aren't many adults, like you said, with less experience.
They simply are different.
Their brains are wired differently.
And so the expectations we have on especially I feel like as they get to be teens, we often have these adult expectations on them.
But it's unfair because their brains aren't developed in the same way an a an adult is brain is wired.
And I had this conversation and maybe this is skipping ahead.
with someone the other day 'cause I was saying how it's important for tweens and teens to be dependent on their parents still.
And they were pushing back, being like, Well, don't you think they're actually over dependent on their parents like
parents are hovering and being helicopter parents and da da da right and I was like, okay, I hear you, but that's unhealthy dependence.
But I think what we often
feel is like, oh, they're teens, like they need independence.
They need to do their own things and make their own mistakes.
And like there's an element of that where we do step back a little bit in the teen years.
But we need to remember that
They are not adults with fully formed brains and logic and reasoning systems in their brains and they do need to be able to fall back on us and rely on us in those years.
And we can't just say, oh well, they're this age, so now they should
make their own choices because often that's where poor choices are made or where their peer influence becomes the deciding factor on the decisions that they make.
And we see that all the time in teens getting into bad situations when it's their peers that they're dependent on.
Now do you think
people asking those questions are thinking about things way too black and white.
Because it sort of feels like people think you either have to be so strong-handed and
It's my way or the highway.
You don't necessarily need to know why there are rules in place, but these are the rules, versus you go to the exact opposite side of your coddling.
It's almost you're babying your child too much
Versus I think there's somewhere it's again, it's somewhere in between and might be more heavily one direction or the other based on the type of situation that
You're in.
I feel like there's almost three.
Like there's three ends.
So there's the coddling, right?
Of like, well I'll take you everywhere and I'll never let you alone with your
friends and I'm gonna read every single text message you've ever sent, you know, that or I can't trust you with using this this thing or doing this on your own or And it's just like the over the shoulder like I don't trust you and then therefore the kids like I can't be trusted, you know and that's
Difficult.
And then there's, yeah, they're just they're teens.
Like let them do their own thing.
Kind of like I'm totally hands off.
I've washed my hands of them.
I'm doing my own thing now.
And then there's the these are my rules.
It's my way or the highway.
And if
Like if you can't follow my rules, then I take away your privileges or whatever it is.
Like I feel like this those are kind of like the three strongest ends
And then I agree, like you think there's something else that's kind of Well, I think the first one, the last one you described are basically the same.
But I feel like there's rules in like a harsh way.
But then what I'm seeing and what this person I was talking to is saying
These parents genuinely are kind and loving and like supportive and they're not trying to be harsh with their kids, but they just like they can't let them do their own thing at all.
Like so they're just with their kids all the time.
Whereas like the my way or the highway to me is more like
I'm just setting a rule and you better follow it.
And if you don't, I'm gonna try and enforce it.
And those I feel like that's where the teens really push back and they're like, fine, then I'm gonna go out partying with my friends or whatever.
Do you know what I mean?
I do feel like those are two different, very different things.
And I feel like the coddling parent is genuinely trying to like be loving and be caring and they have their own like I could see myself doing that if I don't
Essentially I could see myself being the coddling parent if I'm not mindful of it, which I will be.
But like it'll be so hard for me to be like
Okay, yeah, like you have your license.
Why don't you drive yourself to school today?
Like my instinct would be like, I'll just drive you to school every day.
Like I don't want you to have to ever
Do that on your own or you know.
So that's where that's the dance of like where do I pull back?
Where do I step in?
How do I let them to be dependent on me without over dependence or unhealthy, I should say, dependence.
I don't know.
I feel like it's such a dance.
Yeah
I'm not convinced that I'm clear on that, but that's okay.
That might be a conversation that we have off-air and trying to figure out what the best way to describe that is, but what part are you not clear on?
To be honest, feel like it's kind of a range or spectrum of parents from I mean, maybe it's not a spectrum, it's like uh a cloud map where it's
That's probably what it is.
It's honestly probably the four different parenting styles and you kind of fall within them and there's certain areas that But again I feel like people are way too black and white.
Like you have to be at the extremes of any
One end of it.
Yeah.
I think that's a good way of describing it.
The cloud map with the different parenting styles in each.
Yeah.
I think that makes more sense
So looking through the research, it seems that teens or let's say children, especially once the limbic system starts developing at a faster rate, they get a more intense
dopamine hit from social approval than the adult brain does, just in general.
So they've done fMRI studies and I don't really understand all of it, but it's sh
was showing that kids with that system that's developing faster than their prefrontal cortex get a a bigger hit from dopamine from social approval.
So when you see teens prioritizing social media likes over real-world responsibilities or kids like our eight-year-old choosing
to not have us come to the birthday party with her rather than have us come to the birthday party with her because she wants to be with her friends.
How can we as parents but also help other parents, how can we help parents understand this isn't just defiance, but a brain that's potentially just chasing a high?
And I feel like social media likes are a different it's like very far at the end of the spectrum.
Like that is an unhealthy thing to be
craving the social media likes, but in a simpler situation like our eight-year-old wanting to be a little more independent and away from us and go to this birthday party on her own at her school
How can we help parents understand that that's actually a normal desire for children, especially at this stage of their life?
Yeah, I mean I feel like the way you just described it makes perfect sense, right?
Like their brain is wired to start to seek
closeness or attachment from their peers at this age.
And there's nothing wrong with that or abnormal.
And that doesn't mean they don't also have a good relationship with you.
I think parents can start to worry and be like, oh my goodness
just because they have these friendships with peers and they don't want me at the birthday party, does that mean we have a problem?
Right.
So I think for parents just taking that deep breath and being like, no, it actually is
developmentally normal.
It's typical for kids to want to have those relationships with their friends and not always have their parents hover and their parents around, right?
So then it's like, okay, so where's the balance?
Like how do we do this in a way that feels healthy?
It still feels safe for our kids
And we're not giving them too much independence, but we're also not smothering them and saying, no, I'm like I'm forcing myself into this birthday party.
Yeah, you're not capable yet.
You can't do it.
You are actually capable.
And it's a safe environment.
So the questions I'm asking myself.
So let's say this birthday party specifically, she's eight years old.
It's a class birthday party
and it's at the school gym, right?
Lots of adults gonna are gonna be around.
It's at the school gym, it's in a contained spot.
It's not at someone's house I don't know.
And there's lots of adults that are going to be there.
We talk about it.
We talk about it with our daughter.
We talk about it ourselves.
And we say, you know what?
This feels like a safe option.
We feel okay with you doing this birthday party without us being there and we'll pick you up at the end.
And we talk her through it and she's okay.
She doesn't want us to be there.
We talk about
Who can you talk to if you need to get a hold of us?
Like who has our phone number?
Who's the trusted adult?
All of these things.
And we let her do it.
And then I pick her up at the end of the birthday party and we talk about what happened and it went well.
And you know, we discuss it
And I think that that's a really healthy way to help her build the independence, but also know that she can come to us if anything happened and how she can get a hold of us.
And we talk about things like
safe behavior, unsafe behavior, all of that to kind of set her up for success.
Now what I probably wouldn't feel comfortable with is let's say it's the same scenario, but it's her whole class, but it's at someone's house that we've never met before
I don't know the adults that are supervising this birthday party.
I know there's tons of kids there.
And I just don't have enough information to feel comfortable with setting our daughter there by herself.
Right.
So in that situation, I might be like, look, I'm not comfortable with this plan and I'm gonna come, but I'll I'll hold back like you hang out with your friends, not like I'm gonna be beside you the whole time.
But because of this and this and this reason, I'm not gonna send you by yourself.
So it's still the parents' decision at the end of the day, but we kind of have to look at when are these instances we can give them independence and when are times that we've decided that this is not a safe situation for our child and we kind of stand up and be like no
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
And especially if, let's say, we as parents are teaching them the body safety tools so they know how to react in certain situations and what to do.
I don't know, like we're preparing them for being away from us.
I can see you in some situations might give them the independence and let them do it, versus other times you wouldn't.
Yeah.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly
kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from
Our new body safety and consent course at Nurture First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me, so Jess.
If you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years.
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read facial cues, you'll talk about safe and unspeakable.
safe touch and you'll even teach them about their uh oh feeling.
There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff like tickling that goes too far and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
We made this course at Nurture First because research shows that body safety education helps kids speak
sooner and we want that for our family, for Scott and I, but also for you.
So check the course out at nurturefirst.
com slash body safety and to save 10% use the code
robot unicorn.
And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
Now before we get into the next
Part of this discussion, I just want to ask what your opinion is on the developmental psychologist, Eric Erickson.
I think he's done a lot of really important work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think a lot of his work is foundational still to developmental psychology, like to this day.
Yeah, it honestly seemed like it in what I was reading and
I was just reading up on his theories around each stage as children grow.
And around this age where they're starting to
become adolescents.
He talks about the crisis identity versus role confusion, where the primary work of those years when they're going through puberty and their brain is developing is to answer mainly the fundamental question of who am I?
Mm-hmm.
So they're trying to figure that out.
And to do this, he just said that kids engage in periods of experimentation, trying on different roles, beliefs, behaviors to see what actually feels authentic.
to them and they tend to push parents away a little bit because they're a symbol of them being a child and independent versus that this stage their brain is actually trying to help them become independent from their parents
They're trying to become their own person at that point.
So they're they're able to take on the thoughts or think about what are the these other kids thinking about me in this situation?
And w if my parents are around and my mom yells, I love you
across the the parking lot to her.
What are my friends gonna think about that for me?
Am I still little kid?
Am I still baby to them?
Like that's essentially what I understood he was saying in this this stage of growth
Yes, and I think that this stage of growth is really important to understand that as parents, what will push our kids away in this stage, I'm talking we're talking about tweens into teens, is
telling our kid this is who you are, this is what our family believes, without asking them what they think and and trying to help them develop their own sense of identity.
So when we are kind of like forcing our beliefs, and this goes into adulthood, right?
But when we start to tell them this is how you think and this is what you believe and this is what our family does, a child might
have their wall go up a bit to their parents, right?
Because what they're trying to do is figure out, yeah, but who am I, right?
That's you
And for the first time in my life since I was born, I'm realizing that I'm my own person and I have to kind of figure out who I am.
And so what we want to do is be on our child's team to help them figure out who they are
What do they like?
What are they interested in?
What do they think of certain things?
What does it feel like to be with your friends?
What hobbies do you enjoy, right?
Instead of us just telling them.
.
this is it and that's a journey.
They're not even gonna have the answers at all at first.
Yeah, right.
But the more we can help our child build their own identity and know that we are there to support them on that journey, it helps them know who they are and actually makes them less
susceptible, let's say, to peer pressure, to peer influence that's negative, because they have a sense of who they are.
But part of that is they also need to know that they have a sense of who they are
And that that still means that they belong in your family.
Because as soon as they feel like, well, you know, I'm this way or I like these things, but that means that I don't have a spot in my family because they don't like
Like so simple.
They don't like sports.
Like my family doesn't like sports, but I really like it and I want to do more sports, but my parents say that's not what we do in our family.
Well then
Your child starts to feel like, oh of maybe I don't belong in this family anymore.
And like they pull away and they start pulling to peers who they feel like they belong with
So I think the underlying message needs to be, I want to help you in your journey to discovering yourself and figuring out who you are.
And no matter what, I'll always love you.
You'll always have a place in this family.
I think if we can do both, we can really support them through this transition.
What about because I can imagine some parents may be like, whoa, you're telling me that I can't share our family values with
our child and say this is what we value as a family and this is how we do things as a family.
Like that's kind of what it sounds like and I don't think that's what you meant.
Because I think it's still important to have family values and say this is the lens through which we as a family see things.
But we're having that discussion with our kids, right?
So I even love the idea of making your family values together
Like what if even a couple times a year you sit down at the table and be like, what does our family value?
Let's all put input into this.
I'm just gonna say that sounds very I don't know.
That A lot of families do that and I would love to do that.
Are you serious?
Yeah, that's like actually a common thing a lot of people do.
To like sit down and talk about what's important to our family, what do we do?
I'm gonna say the vast majority of families do not do that.
Do you really think?
Not the vast majority, but I know people do that and I I personally love that idea.
So you have a confirmation bias.
I have a confirmation bias.
Well, yeah, and also I've taught this before, so then people have done this because
I've taught this.
But I do think the family meeting.
I think that makes sense.
But what I'm saying is by the sounds of it, what you're saying is that you can't push your ideals
or your values on your kids, but w I don't know what the alternative is.
You just say you choose whatever you want.
That doesn't make sense either.
That's way too far in the other direction.
I think it's totally fair to say, yeah, this is important.
Like our family values honesty.
Honesty is really important.
How do you feel about that?
Right?
So get their input on it.
Or, you know, in our family
It's really important that we talk about the hard things together.
Like if something hard is going on, we want to be able to support each other and talk about the hard things together.
That's really important to our family
You know, how how do you feel about that?
Like just and it's more so like getting their take on it versus being like, our family always does
this and therefore you have to right without being like and and what does that mean for you?
What do you what do you feel about that?
How like when we do this
What comes up for you?
I don't know.
Like I feel like there's a discussion that can happen with our kids instead of just like, this is what we do, end of story, period.
I feel like that's when you're gonna get pushback.
I wonder what that looks like in reality though.
So stuff like honesty, kindness, whatever, that stuff honestly is all very low stakes, but then when you
Think of something that is higher stakes for the parents.
Let's say something like religious ideals or I don't know, political ideals, or whatever.
Maybe at that age it's not as big a deal for that
political side of things.
It will come up, but I just think it's a much higher stakes thing.
And how can you, as a parent, if you have
very strong ideals or your parents push these strong ideals on you and you have the same thing and you want the same for your kids, how do you have that conversation?
Again, you don't want to go too far in either direction where you say, you choose whatever you want
Or on the other side, this is the choice that we have made for you as your parents, and you will follow this.
Yes, exactly.
I love what my dad used to do.
And it would drive me nuts when I was a kid.
But whenever it came to anything and I would just be like working with him on something or whatever, he'd always be like, So what do you think?
You know, what what do you think about that?
What do you think about this?
You know, it wasn't that they changed what they did as a family based on everything I thought, right?
So for example, let's say religion
Let's say it's really important to you as a parent that your child goes to church with you every Sunday.
That's fine.
Like you're the parent, you're the leader of the family, and that's important to you.
But then you start to notice your child's getting to like
10, 11, 12, and they're like, I don't really want to go to church anymore, right?
So there's two ways of approaching that.
There's you have to, you're in this family, therefore you have to go to church
period, end of story, we're not talking about it.
Or there's, well, our family goes to church every Sunday and like, so you're gonna come with us to church.
But we'd love to understand what it is that you don't like about it.
And we'd love to talk to you about that.
And we want to understand what that is.
And we want you to be able to form your own opinion about church and someday like you'll make your own decision as to whether or not you go.
But right now, like
What do you think about that?
That sounds, I think, like a far more open-minded discussion than I think the reality.
Again, it's at very high stakes.
For the parents, I think it's a very high-stakes decision if their child decides not to follow their same religious or political or whatever.
So how would you handle a situation like that?
Well, I mean obviously I would try and understand why.
Yeah, they get curious.
Why yeah.
You I would try and understand why they feel different from the way we feel about something.
And I would explain all of the reasoning
behind why we've chosen this one thing for them and try and figure out and say this is what you as a child you're going to have to do.
because this is what we want for you.
But how can we, I don't know, how can we collaborate on this to make this something that maybe you don't always love, but you're willing to do
But again, I don't know if I'm thinking about this in the moment as like I'm thinking of this rationally right now.
But And like these conversations come up for parents all the time, right?
Well, I know
And it is super triggering, especially if there's something that like That's the thing.
Like I feel like I would not get overly emotional about our kids choosing or, let's say, questioning
our reasoning on things.
I would have a s discussion with them.
I'm not gonna get overly emotional about them cho like questioning because I'm quite I would be quite proud of them for having the critical thinking spill skills to actually even
question it.
But I truly think that a lot of parents would struggle very much with that.
Yeah, I think you're right.
So yeah, in the ideal world.
You have this beautiful discussion and it's all rainbows and lollipops and we agree to disagree and just keep moving forward.
But as you can see in the world, a lot of adults can't even do that with each other.
And then when you have your child who you might see your own insecurities or now they're questioning you and they're kind of turning into a little version of a little emotional version of you and they're question- I think this discussion we're having right now is really important because
This is totally a huge struggle parents face, right?
All the time.
And especially in these teen years when the values start to conflict with their own.
Well again, this starts from around age eight or nine.
They start doing this a little bit more
And I think it's an important reminder for all of us to be in tune with before this happens if we can, like what is going to be really triggering to me, like if my kid
comes to me.
You know, and and I have said this so many times to parents, but like typically the age where let's say we acted up the most or we had the most struggles were the things that we really struggled around.
Like
that's gonna be our biggest trigger.
And it's gonna be like looking in the mirror.
And it's gonna be really hard for us to regulate and be that calm, curious parent that we want to be, unless we can say, this is my stuff that I'm bringing to my kid here
I can't project that onto them.
But like you said, most of us aren't doing that deep critical thinking all the time.
And so in the moment you might be like Yeah, it would be very tiring to do that.
Yeah, exactly.
And you might be like
No, you have to think this way because this is what we do, right?
Because so much of your identity and you worry that your kid is gonna go off the deep end, right?
And I I think the other thing with with this age is sometimes we take
And I don't know how to say this, but like sometimes we take what our kid says in one moment almost too seriously.
Like if they say, Let's just bring the religion example in again.
I hate church, I don't want to go.
Then we start to spiral being like, they're never gonna go to church again and they hate church and da-da-da and this and this.
Meanwhile, like what we've just learned.
They say a lot of things.
They don't have the brakes on what they're saying.
So we don't need to take everything they s like we can be curious, we can be calm, we can be compassionate.
But you don't need to take everything they say at complete face value, like this is what they're gonna believe for the rest of their life.
Yes.
'Cause I do
feel a lot of parents in my practice that will come in because their tween has made like one passing comment one time on something and now they're like, oh no, like this is it forever.
Yeah
In the review that I wrote, the articles that I was reading were suggesting that it's much easier for an adolescent's brain between the teen
brain to make a comment like you're so annoying or I hate you versus them thinking something as complex and mature as
I see myself and the things that I like in you or dislike in you as my parent.
And that's a problem because
I'm trying to figure out who I am and I don't really want to be this old person who has different tastes in music and clothes and everything.
And that will potentially
I'll be ostracized by my peer group because I am different from them.
Even though they likely all the other kids in their peer group probably feel pretty similarly.
Yes, totally.
So that's the thing.
It's easier for their brain
their emotional brain at that that stage to say anything and it's our job as parents to help kind of correct and guide them down the right way of thinking.
Totally.
And not just yeah, not just saying, oh, they said they hate me
Therefore they hate me.
Because I think often that's what I'm trying to say about the us taking it too serious.
Whereas if we just curious instead.
Like, oh, okay, what's going on?
You know, or take them for a walk or wait till they calm down and then talk to them.
We can typically get to the bottom of it.
And it's not usually that they hate you or whatever it is that they've just impulsively said
Yeah.
There was a lot on social media and gaming, but I honestly feel like that should be separate.
And we already did an episode on social media, which I hope people agree it's quite good, quite in-depth.
So if you're interested in that
Maybe go back, look at a few episodes back at that episode on uh social media.
Gaming.
I think we could do a whole episode on that too.
That's Yeah
Again, that's for older kids.
Well, a lot of eight-year-olds are starting the game.
Yeah, true.
I guess there's some in our oldest class that are also gaming.
But yeah, I totally agree.
That's a whole episode.
Uh but those
If we're talking about peer influence and being embarrassed or like creating potentially antisocial behaviors, there are a lot of risks for both without an incredible amount of parental guidance.
Not control, but guidance.
I mean parental controls maybe in the apps, but that's separate.
Okay, so I know we've talked about in previous episodes going from
the manager or micromanager of kids into more of a coaching role.
You're trying to coach and you're on the same team and you're trying to help everyone develop and become the best version of themselves so we can as a team
have a great family.
And I mean this is basically the philosophy that we take on quite a bit.
It's creating that strong family unit because it helps with
all aspects of life afterwards.
Could you break down for the person listening what this shift looks like in practice and why it's critical?
The shift to being more of a coach in these years?
Especially, yeah.
Like when you're when kids are little, you're essentially they're you're still coaching them, but there's a lot more management.
There's a lot more like, oh no, don't touch the outlet or don't do this or here do this here.
You're much more trying to
Well it's like it's also more physical, right?
In the toddler years.
Like you literally have to pick them up and comfort them and rock them and whatever.
But I see it's like, yeah, our role is still
to be there, but yeah, it's just shifts in what it looks like.
So now we're coaching them through these years and we want to be that coach that they want to come to and talk to and work through their issues with, right?
But it doesn't mean that we're always like right there with them.
solving every issue for them.
So like I think of not bullying, that's a totally separate topic, but let's say a friendship struggle at school.
Right.
So instead of micromanaging coming in and like
I'm gonna fix all your friendship struggles for you.
It'd be like, okay, at home, let's talk it through.
What's the struggle that you're facing?
Okay, let's talk through some options.
How could you respond?
Let's roleplay it out like let's practice what you could do and equipping your child to go into that situation and feel like they can handle the friendship thing
And so that would be the difference to me from like a coach or a micromanager would be like, I'm coming to school with you and I'm talking to your friends.
Right.
And the kids like
Send help.
Like no thank you.
I mean in some situations that might be necessary.
That's why I said bullying's different.
So as a coach, we're helping them, we're helping equip them, we're preparing them.
A lot of time it is role play, it is talking it out at home
It's teaching them things like safety and body safety and consent.
It's doing all those things within the structure of your relationship so that we can give them these small opportunities to try and practice these things on their own.
And then they come back to us and we talk about how it went.
So I think that that's the really important piece.
And similar to the tall day years, we're still making sure that we're setting them up for success in the environments that they're going into, right?
So you you don't want to pull back that
too early where you're like, oh they'll be fine.
You know, and then you send them to someone's house that you've never met before.
Yeah.
You don't know anything, right?
Right, right.
So we also have to still understand risk and a constant transition.
Yeah.
It's not like it's
Again, with all of these things we're talking about, you can't think of it as black and white.
Like it's either this or that.
It's both.
You might be 95% manager and 5%
coach when they're a toddler and it switches to like sixty-forty as they are becoming thirteen like they're thirteen or something.
Yeah.
And then they get to seventeen, eighteen and you're like, I really do have to pull back.
But I hope I have that relationship and I can still be that coach for you, even though you're going to a party and I don't know everybody there now.
Right?
So it's
constantly kind of evaluating where are we at, how much can I give them, and trying to understand the risk while doing the dance of dependence and independence.
Yeah.
One interesting thing that I read in an article was that just a way of
Visualizing all of the work we do as parents to create this safe relationship that we have with our kids, it acts as a social immune system.
So it's essentially we are giving them the ability to fight off the pathogens that, let's say, like a kid is not nice to them.
a friend is not being nice to them, they will have the ability to understand and deal with that or come back to us and we can help them work through it.
Yeah.
I just felt like the the idea where everything that we're doing is helping them create this social immune system because as humans we're very social.
We have to interact with others.
I don't know, it's one of the biggest, if not the biggest parts of life.
And there is a natural conflict.
Like you want to protect your kids as much as possible.
But every kid is gonna go through some sort of conflict, right?
With whether it's with a friend or something else happens, like you can't possibly protect them from all those things.
It's literally impossible.
It's impossible.
And I think parents try, right?
But what's better is
Doing your best, obviously, to protect them, but at the same time equipping them and letting them know they can fall back on you and have that relationship to pour back on.
And when you see your child so grumpy and they slam the door after school
Not just leaving that alone, right?
Being like, I wanna help you, I wanna understand what's going on for you.
Constantly tuning in is the best protective factor that we can have because they're gonna go through hard stuff, but it feels a lot less hard when they know they have a coach or that
relationship to fall back on.
Yeah.
And again, there's so much even with that because you also don't want to you might see a certain situation where you're projecting
your own childhood on the certain issue when maybe it's not as big a deal as you think it is, but because of what you had to deal with as a kid.
You think it's a much bigger deal and then you turn it into something much bigger and it like Oh, it's so hard.
It's very complicated.
These years are very complicated and I do think it triggers a lot of old wounds and many parents.
apparent in general is not an easy thing.
I've always thought it was rewarding, but I think lately I've found it to be way more rewarding.
It is really rewarding.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well it's interesting to see your girls grow and certain things like teaching them about what safe friends are like and
Teaching them the body safety tools and then seeing that actually helps.
Yeah, it helps.
And they're having struggles at school, but they come tell us right away, or they tell a teacher or the principal
Yeah.
And we work through it much faster than either of us would have as kids.
I don't know.
It's quite satisfying.
Yeah, and it's hard, like when hard things happen with your kids, right?
When they're f
the body safety issue comes up or when there's a friendship struggle.
But it's important to remember that the way you respond and the way they don't feel alone in that situation is what differentiates it from being this like
long-term trauma they're gonna have to process in adulthood to I'm processing it right here and now with the people who care for me and love me and want to support me through this.
Like it's actually quite a gift that we're giving our kids to be those people for them.
And
I think parents put like we put a lot of pressures on ourselves.
We try and keep our kids as safe as we can.
But like when those situations come up, which they will, remember that just the work, just the fact that your child's telling you about it, like that's huge
And even if it took them a while to tell you, like that's okay too.
Like it it shows the trust and the fact that you want to coach them through it.
Like I think we've we forget that those are the things.
that show how well we're actually doing.
It's not making sure our kid never goes for anything hard.
And I've yeah, I've been finding that really rewarding as well in bigger kids, bigger challenges, but also
What a great opportunity and to know that some of these things that our daughters are going through in the school age that they'll remember and that hopefully they can remember the way that we showed up for them and those hard things.
Like that blows my mind.
Like you're gonna remember this.
But
Hopefully you remember the way that we also supported you through it.
Yeah, because the research was very clear on the most effective way to help
children.
Let's say if we go back to being embarrassed, that's just inevitable.
They will be embarrassed by us for many reasons.
We could be the coolest parent out there and they could s they are likely still going to be embarrassed of us.
That's just a part of their brain developing, but what helps them is having that close family that values open communication and is not judgmental about things and
just helps each other through things, that is what is the most beneficial in life.
That will help them see, hmm, this this friend
as they get older is not really treating people, not treating me and others very respectfully.
And maybe I will distance myself a little bit.
Rather than you saying, well, you can't be friends with them.
you should be friends with them.
They will be able to start making those decisions on their own.
Yeah.
And I think in terms of friendship, like our kids will choose peers who make them feel the same way that we've made them feel
Right.
And I think they are able to identify red flags and friendships just because if they weren't treated in that way before, they know something about that feels wrong.
So just even like their relationship with us and the type of behavior we allow and support in the home tells them what's right and wrong when they're out and about.
And I feel like that is just huge.
Like that's so cool to be able to see that
our kids can identify that didn't feel safe for me or that like that's not how we talk to each other or I don't like it when people talk bad about each other because we don't do that in the house, you know.
And they can already at such a young age see
the difference and the type of friends that they want to be with.
I think that's really cool.
Yeah.
Well and it helps them again what I was reading in the research was that
their friend group or their peers help influence both positive and negative behaviors, but the family life that they have helps them steer
let's say in the right direction or wrong wrong direction towards peers.
So if you have a very safe knit close family, they're much more likely to find peers that make them feel that same way.
And though those peers will actually help amplify each other and the the best attributes of each other.
So it's it's all interconnected.
It's I don't know, it's quite interesting.
I think it's so cool.
I love understanding that and seeing just how much our influence matters in the home.
I think it just it helps us
wants to be a good influence for our our kids too, right?
We want them to have healthy peer relationships.
We want them to have healthy romantic relationships someday.
So it it's a motivator for me to do the work on myself, to not get so triggered by them, or to, you know, go take a break instead of losing my cool or to ask myself.
Is this about her or is this my own thing that's coming up right now?
It's very motivating.
With all your professional and personal insights, what is one piece of advice you would give to your own self?
If you could, when you were, let's say, at our daughter's age into the teen years.
Or what's maybe one thing you would want to say to yourself at that age?
Every other kid feels like you.
That's what I would want to say.
Cause I felt and every tween girl feels like I'm the only one who feels this way.
I'm the only one who's embarrassing myself every day.
I'm the only one who's not good at these things.
I'm the only one who's insecure.
Yeah, I'm the only one.
Da, whatever it is.
And I see this in the tween girls in my practice all the time.
Every one of them thinks they're the only one with friendship struggles and they're the only one that the other girls don't like.
But they're all in the same class
And that they all feel that way.
So I think letting them know that it's just normal and I would let myself know, Jess, you're not the only one.
Pretty much every other girl in your class is feeling this way too.
And I think that would have really helped me.
Nice
Okay, and to wrap up, what is what you would say the single most important message you want to leave parents with who are in the thick of these years and big changes?
Because I think this is fundamentally different from
Let's say toddlers and preschoolers.
Don't let your kids push you away.
They might try, right?
They might yell, they might say, I hate you.
They might storm off and slam their door and say, I don't want you to come in.
Of course there's time for space to to calm down, but don't
follow their lead and be like, well, I guess like I should just pull away then.
They need more space.
These tweens need you, but they will try and push you away.
That's their job.
Right.
And your job is to, you know, maybe they calm down in their room and then you come up with a tea or you come up with a plate of nachos or you're like, hey, let's go for a walk and go grab a hot chocolate.
Like your job is to just keep showing up
And don't take their words when they're angry at you so serious that you stop.
So that would be my biggest advice.
If if think if you can just do that, showing up with curiosity.
Like that is the number one thing you can do.
And your kids will feel that for years to come.
Nice.
I think that's a great way to end this episode.
Beautiful.
Well, this is a fun one.
Yeah, you liked it?
Very interesting.
I could have talked about this for like six hours.
Yeah, I skipped a lot on this one
And I sort of I feel like we went in a little bit different direction than I was originally anticipating, but that's okay.
I think it was a good discussion.
I think it was really good.
I kinda like it when we're not a hundred percent on the same page with things, I think
It makes for uh interesting discussion and also the point of the podcast is to just help people think and reflect and kind of figure out what's gonna work for them.
So it's important to see sometimes that there is some different perspectives.
Um I think that's helpful
Great.
Well, thanks for listening today.
Hope you enjoyed the episode.
If you did, leave us a comment or a like or send us an email.
We really appreciate it.
Perfect.
Talk to you next week.
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