You're Allowed to Fire Your Therapist

Show Notes

We take a bite of queer-affirming therapy with Colton Schoenike (they/them,), M.S., MFT-IT, a training marriage and family therapist based in Menominee, Wisconsin.

We talk about protips for queer and trans folks seeking affirming therapists, the continued gatekeeping of trans folks seeking biomedical transitions, and what to do when you just don't vibe with your therapist and how amazing it is when you do.

More resources related to queer affirming therapy are available on our website.

If you or someone you know needs help through a crisis or navigating their questions about being trans, contact the Trans Lifeline Hotline at US (877) 565-88760 or CA [phone]

For questions, comments or feedback about this episode: [e-mail]

Find us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram

Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of programs for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality & Gender Diversity 

Cover art: Adrienne McCormick 

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Creators & Guests

Host

R.B. Brooks

Director of Programs, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

Producer

Justin Drwencke

Executive Director, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

What is Take the Last Bite?

Take the Last Bite is a direct counter to the Midwest Nice mentality— highlighting advocacy & activism by queer/trans communities in the Midwest region. Each episode unearths the often disregarded and unacknowledged contributions of queer & trans folks to social change through interviews, casual conversations and reflections on Midwest queer time, space, and place.

For questions, comments and feedback: [e-mail]

To support this podcast and the Institute, please visit sgdinstitute.org/giving

Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of programs for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality & Gender Diversity

Cover Art: Adrienne McCormick

BROOKS
Hey. Hi. Hello, y'all. It's me, RB, freshly thawed from a Northern Minnesota Blizzard, and I'm excited to be welcoming you to season two of Take the Last Bite. If you're a returner, let me get the door for you. We appreciate you coming back. And if you're newly tuning in, don't worry, we've got a seat saved for you, too, and it's nice and toasty.

As a quick refresher. My name is RB. I used they/them pronouns, and I am the director of programs for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity. As a lifelong Midwesterner, it has been a vital part of my journey claiming queerness and transness, connecting with other Midwest queer and trans people, building my ecosystem, and engaging in meaningful work for queer and trans justice within the Midwest region. What has emerged through my personal pursuits of building connectivity and community and being in right relationship with other Midwest queer and trans people is that I have connected with the amazing team that has become the Midwest Institute, and our objective through all of our programming and especially this podcast, is to elevate uplift and center conversations, narratives, stories and highlights about Midwest queer and trans communities doing rad work. Because we know that we are often disregarded in larger, broad based national conversations about movement work. And who better to tell these necessary stories than Midwest queer and trans folks who call the Midwest home.

In the time since you've heard from me, our team, and our splendid invited guests at the end of season one, we've been hard at work, meeting and collaborating with a rad team of student planners from the States of Ohio and Indiana, working in preparation for the upcoming Midwest Bisexual Lesbian Gay Transgender Asexual College Conference, MBLGTACC for the necessary short as we gear up for the 30th Annual Conference in October 2022, taking place in Columbus, Ohio.

In the 30 year history of the conference, the conference has taken place in many of the Midwest States, almost all of them, but we have not been in Ohio since 2003, so we're excited to get back to that part of the region, showcase some of the amazing work going on in Ohio and Indiana, and to engage with attendees from immediately around that region and of course, across the Midwest region in totality. Throughout season two, you can expect plenty of updates about how you can get involved with that conference, either as an attendee or as a presenter, or participating in this newly launched piece of programming that we're really excited about that is essentially a queer and trans Etsy shop and art fair, but in person. So that's pretty exciting. So stay tuned, pay attention to any updates we give in the podcast, or you can check out mblgtacc.org for all of the timely updates and detailed information about that piece of programming.

And in not so exciting news, what has also taken place since we've been away is that the anti trans antagonizers have been back on their BS. Two major legislative disasters that are getting major attention right now is the ongoing evolution of the Don't Say Gay bill in Florida, which essentially censors or denies conversation, discussion, content, educational materials about LGBTQ communities, LGBTQ people, and creates penalizations for anybody instructing on or coordinating their content. And then just within the past week, as we are publishing this podcast on March 1, Greg Abbott made a big declarative statement that apparently, according to him and his cishet whiteness gender affirming healthcare for trans minors or trans youth is, quote, unquote child abuse. He encouraged people to report parents for essentially supporting their kids. Deep breaths.

That's all happening. That's gaining major attention. That's generating quite a bit of, like, social rhetorical commentary where everybody's emboldened to make their unsolicited claims about transness, whether or not we should be giving access to trans affirming healthcare to children and or anybody. And so while the Texas and Florida examples are not necessarily surprising because of just the historical record of what tends to be the perspective on queer and trans people in the States of Texas and Florida, we also need to bring it back home and zoom in a bit on what is also taking place here in our Midwest region.

So this awesome resource called freedomforallamericans.org has actually aggregated information about the slew of anti trans bills and legislation that are being introduced across the country in all 50 States. And on their website, they have this interactive map where if you scroll over a state of interest, it'll actually allow you to click it, and it'll break down every single bill that has been introduced just within the past two months within these States and give detailed information about the specifics of the bills that are being introduced. And y’all we got to talk. We have a problem. Of the 13 Midwest States that the Institute considers as part of the Midwest, which could be a future episode, quite frankly. A majority of them are shaded red on this map, indicating that there is at least one bill that has been proposed since the beginning of this calendar year that attacks queerness transness in some capacity. I think the map I'm looking at is specifically anti trans legislation, but the language could certainly be used to leverage attacks against queer and trans people broadly, because these types of legislation and all of their Ickiness really tend to attack people based on gender expression, bodily expression, behavior rights. So we gotta understand.

Now with 100% certainty, these types of legislative attacks are not new. You can do plenty of research and sleuthing to find plenty of examples, plenty of waves of instances in which the Republicans generally find time to do these types of icky legislative drafts, even though they certainly have plenty more they should be doing usually around, like, I don't know, budgets and infrastructure and climate change. There's a long laundry list of things they should probably actually be attending to but this is what they'd like to consume their time with. And ultimately they're sharing notes with each other and language and clauses and hyping each other up about these anti trans legislative introductions. And so, as I just glanced at this map that I have open in front of me and thinking about the Midwest States that are under attack just within the past two months, right like Iowa is dark red because there's apparently 14 different bills of some caliber that are aiming to restrict or inhibit trans existence. Minnesota has four. South Dakota has three. Kansas has four. Missouri has seven. The list goes on and on. I would definitely encourage checking out this resource. We'll link it in the show notes for folks to utilize so that you can get invested in any type of lobbying work or disruptive work to make sure that these do not become law.

Ultimately, I'd say that if you exist in spaces where you have influence on political lobbying or other political sway, or you have the ear of folks who are involved in making political statewide decisions, this is the time to really move and encourage politicians to deny the progression of these policies because they are going to do substantive damage to queer and trans people, especially trans youth. And I don't necessarily have strong hopes that our federal government is going to be acting too swiftly or boldly on this growing issue. In fact, just within the past week, after Greg Abbott circulated his statement about gender affirming child care for minors being child abuse, a reporter asked the White House press Secretary what the White House's stance was related specifically to the Texas iteration of antitrans law. And the Press Secretary opted to pull up some talking points that had been communicated in regards to the don't say gay bill in Florida. But as journalist Caitlin Burns pointed out, at no point in time in the response did the White House press Secretary even say the word trans children. And that is a problem, because if the folks that we would like to believe have the capacity, capital, and power to be some shade of allies in resisting these anti trans legislative attacks can't even utter the words trans children, trans youth, trans people, trans communities. They are no better than the folks drafting these political legislative attacks who are ultimately aiming for the same goal. And that is to disappear, vanish, vanquish, and reject the existence of trans people specifically under the guise of family values, under the guise of safety, under the guise, Ironically, of protecting women and children. And they are going to continue to do this until there is a bold maneuver against the possibility of these types of legislative attacks taking place.

So to wrap up my little soapbox here, please be specific. Please be precise about who is disproportionately impacted by these emerging policy attempts and legislative introductions and bills. Please be attentive to how these things are moving. And please leverage any power you have to disrupt and disallow these policies from becoming practice, because it's getting really scary out there, and it's getting really scary for queer and trans young people especially.

So I think that's enough doom and gloom for one introduction. I just think it's necessary to point out that there's some pretty significant things going on that set the context for what we're going to be engaging in in the next few months with season two of this podcast. I'm really excited about some of the conversations we already have on deck to offer you through season two. We are going to be engaging in quite a few conversations that are quite related to some of this political treachery that's taking place, but from a different angle. We're going to be chatting with folks who are taking on campaigning and engaging in local politics, and talking about how electoral politics, especially at the local level, can be leveraged as a tool for change that is going to create material impacts for queer and trans people. We're going to have quite a few conversations about health, health care, different types of health and healing, either from the vantage point of queer therapists, or from travel nurses, or from personal development coaches. So all kinds of ways in which we're trying to get our folks feeling better, feeling good, and taking care of ourselves so we can take care of each other. Because I don't know about you, but the seasonal depression is real. The snow can leave anytime at once, and I'd like to see the sun for prolonged periods of time, so summer can not come soon enough. But in the meantime, we can keep each other warm and cozy and sane and safe and ready to continue to fight and do what we do best, which is have a gay old time. So lots to look forward to in season two.

But to prep us for this particular episode, I'm super excited to have a rendezvous with a very special friend of mine. Colton Schoenike is a long standing attendee of MBLGTACC, and that's how we came into each other's ecosystems. They have a cute little independent baking gig called Them de la Creme, and they are currently a training marriage and family therapist based out of Menomonie, Wisconsin. So our conversation is all about the training they received through their graduate program, what their definition of queer and transaffirming therapy is. They also offer pro tips about how folks can go about figuring out if a relationship with a therapist is going to work, and what cues to look for so that you have a positive experience with a therapist. And they also go into what to do if you're just not vibing with your therapist. Hint, hint. One of the suggestions is the title for this week's episode.

It was super exciting to get to gripe about the gatekeeping medical industrial complex with this incredible, wise, beautiful human, and I'm so excited to be able to introduce them to you through this conversation. So once again, welcome back. This has been such a treat. Prepping season two for you, so I'm excited to get into it, fam. So cozy up, defrost the windshield, make yourself a cup of tea, run the car for a bit so it's nice and warm by the time you get out there, because I want you to be comfortable, relaxed, and to keep your fingertips not feeling so numb so that you can actually feel what you're doing. Maybe that's just a me problem, but damn, it's been cold here in Duluth. Anyway, get comfortable, get ready, get set. Because we are back for season two of Take the Last Bite.

[INTRO MUSIC PLAYING]

Y'all we cannot do this. We cannot be these stereotypical Midwesterners. Please eat the rest of this food.

We just have these conversations every day with people like this is exhausting. I don't want to do this anymore.

Why can't we be in space with hundreds of other queer and trans folks and having these necessary conversations?

I don't know who you are, but we're going to talk by the potatoes for five minutes

Because aesthetic is the only thing keeping my dysphoria at bay. I'm broke all the time, but I look amazing.

Definitely going to talk about Midwest Nice and if that's as real as it wants to think it is.

Midwest nice is white aggression. That's what it is.

[END MUSIC]

BROOKS
All right, fam. I'm super excited to be having this conversation, mainly because we've known each other for a while back in I don't even remember what year, but back when we were queerlings in undergrad, trying to figure out what we were going to do with our lives. And now, fast forward, we're doing big adulting jobs. And that's why you're here to chat today. So can you start off with a quick introduction of yourself, what you do, who you are?

SCHOENIKE
Yeah, we're just doing all the big gay things. It's just great. We're just little Babes. I still think tragedy strikes. I think I was still cis when we met.
BROOKS
Same. Maybe

SCHOENIKE
Fixed that. My name is Colton Schoenike. My pronouns are they, them, theirs. I am a marriage and family therapist in training and sex therapist out of Edges Wellness, based out of the Twin Cities. But I work in Wisconsin, so I do all of the fun therapy things and lots of gender affirming care, lots of LGBT affirming care, especially, like, couples work and sex therapy. All the fun stuff. And I'm just super excited to be here talking about queerness, transness, mental health, rural communities, all the fun things.

BROOKS
And just again, I appreciate you so much for hanging out with me today because it's been too long since we've chatted. And so we're coming together specifically to talk about the work that you're doing, and then just more broadly. Right. Like, what is the landscape of, like, queer and trans affirming therapy? We have been in this pandemic and folks who have maybe been either managing their mental health in some kind of way pre-pandemic. Maybe you're finding that their coping skills and tools are no longer as effective during such a broad scale thing, and or folks are learning that maybe if they've been ignoring their mental health in some type of way, that it's just no longer tenable.

So we're coming together to talk about that right. In the context of this pandemic, what is the landscape of receiving and experiencing therapy practices of any kind specific to queer and trans people? So what does that look like for you from your vantage point?

SCHOENIKE
Yeah, absolutely. So I would say the landscape has changed really drastically, and I think we're all acutely aware of that at this point. I think especially with not so much introduction but the familiarization of ye olde telehealth. I think telehealth has existed since before the pandemic and it was starting to be a newer innovation. I definitely think that a lot of our field and other fields were very allergic to it up until the pandemic. There was a lot of stigma around it. There was a lot of concerns, which I don't think are entirely unfounded. What do we miss out on when we're not in the same room, as far as energy, as far as nonverbals things like that, especially with things like talk therapy, where so much of that interaction is so important. But then we just had to adapt, and especially to the pandemic happened for me right during my last semester of grad school, so I was right in the thick of it, finishing up all of my hours. And so, yeah, the biggest transformation, I think, has been the shift into wider acceptance and wider accessibility of telehealth

I think as we start to get to this point where people are vaccinated and boosted, there's more people feeling more safe with in person things. There's become more, more element of choice. I think, as far as in person versus telehealth, I think that there's definitely still some work to be doing to get us fully there, because this pandemic, surprisingly, is not over yet, even though we like to think it is. But yeah, and so all of that to say access and technology, I think has been the biggest transformation. And I think that definitely applies especially to the idea of queer and trans affirming care in many ways. I do think that the pandemic and especially this large shift to telehealth has been kind of a blessing for queer and trans affirming care, despite the circumstances being less than ideal, of course, because the wide net just opened up so much when so many people were moving to telehealth.

Because if you think about envisioning therapy beforehand, when it was almost assumed or expected that it would be in person, you pretty much were landlocked to where you were and how far you were willing to drive. I know I hate driving. And so I'm like in town or bust when I was looking for my own therapist and, plot twist, everyone therapists usually have their own therapists, and I hope we do. I was like, okay, who's in town? Who am I going to find?

But now, with telehealth, I could see anyone in the state of Wisconsin based on my licensure. If I was licensed in other states too, it opens up all the more. But I've got clients now from Madison, from Milwaukee, from over by Door county, like hours and hours and hours away, where if we didn't have that access and we were landlocked, like I had said to how far we're willing to drive, that would have never happened. And especially in a state like Wisconsin, the number of queer and trans affirming providers, I definitely say is quite thin, let alone queer and trans affirming providers who are actually in community and queer and trans, like, identifying themselves. I think as far as I'm aware, I've met like two people thus far in the state. And if you're out there, hit me up, because I would love to meet you too, because I really just hope that there are more of us than enough to count on one hand.

But so it really has just made everything so much more accessible and that you aren't landlocked to what's available in your community. Granted, we're still a little bit locked just because of like, state licensure, but I think that exists for some reasons and also is open to some critiques as well. But there's just so much more availability to find people that you wouldn't have been able to see otherwise, which I just think has been really great.

BROOKS
Yeah, I think that checks out right, because both of us are in more rural areas. Yours is, I think Menomine, Wisconsin. I think it's a smaller area than Duluth necessarily, but there's still some rurality to those geographical areas. And when I think about talking to students that I work with, it's definitely changed the conversation where especially on College campuses where it's a chronic issue that you have to wait six to eight weeks for an appointment, sometimes depending on the staffing on these College campuses. And even then, there may not be a guarantee that there's queer trans affirming counselors or therapists on these College campuses or in the surrounding area even to be able to say, let's seek out some options for you that fit within the criteria of what you think you're looking for so that you're not locked into just what's around you. Right. It creates possibly a level of comfortability to say, oh, I don't have to meet with someone in person for this first conversation. There's a level of comfort and distance where I can be in my own home, which is complex in itself because as we've seen through the pandemic too, queer and trans like College students or queer and trans youth who have been required to be at home during this pandemic in ways that they would probably prefer not to for safety or sanity sake. That's definitely its own talking point. But ultimately, I appreciate this idea you're naming of expanding choice, expanding access to. Well, if I'm in Duluth, Minnesota, and I'm not finding someone that resonates with me here, I can seek out telehealth options elsewhere in Minnesota. Right. That allow me to find someone to meet my particular needs.

SCHOENIKE
Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny, as I think about it, too, just because, as you mentioned, I am in small rural Menomonie. And as I mentioned, I have quite a few clients from larger urban areas in Wisconsin, like Madison, Milwaukee, et cetera, et cetera. And I was just thinking to myself, the story that you would normally have is like the small town rural queer person, and they would have to go to the urban place to get some sort of like, affirming provider. But it's like backwards here, which I just found funny to think about.

And yeah, that fit is so important that people do have the right provider for them. And if the fates decide that just pure chance, they are a two minute drive away from you. I am so profoundly happy for you. But also, too, there is so many other fits for people that are also probably more like a two hour drive away. And so now that there's actually that chance, I can't state enough how important that fit is. One thing that we talked about in the field is common factors for success. And so that's talking about, like, research showing what actually helps therapy be effective. And I might be misrepresenting it, but I believe it's about 40% of therapy success is just actually the fit between the client and therapist and the fact that they have a good relationship. The other big one is like client motivation. Other things that we think would be more important, like the model or the type of therapy the therapist is using is like 15%.

BROOKS
Okay.

SCHOENIKE
But most importantly, it's just are you wanting to be here and doing the work, and are you having a good relationship with the person you're collaborating with? And so to get to find that person is so critically important.

BROOKS
I hear that. And as someone who has definitely been in the boat of your typical marginalized person who has strayed away from therapy, because I'm just like I don't know. I remember as I was leaving undergrad many a year ago, right? I was just like, my world is shifting and changing, and I did not use my counseling services all throughout College. And the counseling center there was just like, technically, we probably aren't supposed to be covering you anymore, but you never used any of your sessions. So like, let's try this now that you're graduating, because just like everything had changed. I was like, I don't know. Yeah. But I remember going in and just being like, this person wants to talk about everything, but what I'm trying to talk about. And then I didn't go. Like, I stopped going and I didn't know anything about counseling. I come from a family that hasn't done that either, historically, intergenerationally, et cetera. So like, especially right now where there's this increase in demand, if you will, of folks like, looking to access different types of therapy services because of the impacts of the pandemic, the impacts of the ongoing, like, protest and just like, visibility of anti-Blackness and all the other ick that's happening in the world. Right.

SCHONIKE
Like, medical, terminal capitalist hellscape.

BROOKS
All of that, just living your life. What does it look like to seek out and participate in relationship building that feels resonant and affirming for queer and trans people especially?

SCHONIKE
Yeah. So one thing that I think a lot of people do know, but a lot of people don't know that I wish more people were aware of is asking your potential therapist or someone you're looking at if they offer free consultations.

BROOKS
Okay.

SCHONIKE
A lot of us do. I can't say everyone, but I know myself personally, I do offer free consultations. And that's just the chance to get to know your therapist, ask questions, go over what their process looks like, what therapy looks like, and just have this like, zero commitment chance to actually just get to know someone and see if it's going to be a good fit. Because also, I'll be honest once again, fit being so important, that gives both of us a chance to see, like, is this going to work out? Because also too, if the therapist doesn't feel like they can do good work, that's not going to be helpful either. And so it gives a collaborative, communal opportunity to see, does this work? Do we mesh? Will we be able to do good work together? And then we can agree together? Like, let's get started. And so that's definitely a big one. Also. Absolutely, like ask potential therapists or even your current therapist questions. You are welcome to do that. And people, I think, feel this sense of power differential in the therapy space, but it's supposed to be collaborative. And so definitely asking your therapist any questions that you have or if you're feeling not sure about something, naming that, talking about the process with them, and just really claiming that stake in this process that is yours.

At the end of the day, you own this process. The therapist is just there to guide you through it. And so claiming that ownership and that entitlement to it is really important. Also giving your therapist feedback if something brings up feelings in you that are ick, and mind you, therapy and growth is generally uncomfortable. Growing isn't the most pleasant feeling process in the face of the planet. But there's a difference between those growing pains versus, like, something actually gross and problematic happening. And if that's happening and you're leaving your session feeling just not good, naming that with your therapist, if you can expend that emotional labor and saying like, hey, this isn't helpful for me if you've been to previous therapist, too. I know this is my favorite question to ask during a consult, if a client has been to a therapist before, what did that previous therapist do that was really helpful for you or really not helpful for you? Because then I can hear those kinds of things that other therapists were doing that did feel more harmful. And I know, hey, let's avoid those. Which granted, a lot of them just seem like common sense things, but also there are just a lot of not great therapists out there, which is once again why it's so important to do these things, just staking your claim in the process.

BROOKS
I think that's super helpful. Not to say, well, in some ways easier said than done because of what your name is this power differential, right. Like you're paying for a service. And then what also comes to mind that I'm sure we need to talk about. Right. Is that in addition to power differential, just based on the dynamic of I'm paying this person for a service. When we think about like queer and trans folks, especially trans folks, the level of gatekeeping that can exist, that if there's a purpose to your accessing therapy, that's in addition to or beyond, I'm looking for therapy, you might be luke warm about therapy, but what do you need, that fucking T letter or that therapist letter for whatever biomedical treatments you're maybe trying to access or anything else? How does that further complicate trying to build that relationship when there's that maybe more transactional component to I need something specific from you.

SCHONIKE
Yeah. That's a whole loaded process. I think there's a lot of things I have to say about it. I think, number one, the kind of standard that we have like six months of therapy to get a letter is bullshit. Throw it away. Yeah. As we were kind of like kikiying, before we started recording, I was mentioning you've been thinking about this for some time, and it's already such a long amount of time for you to be at, the amount of convincing yourself that this is something going on for you, then the time to muster up the courage to reach out to a therapist. Then add the time of those notorious wait times that we were talking about like six to eight weeks even to get in, by the time you were sitting in my chair in my office, you probably know what the hell you're talking about.

BROOKS
For sure.

SCHOENIKE
That six months is ridiculous. It's so unnecessary. It's so gatekeepy. It's just this nonsense, and I'm not here for it. And so first off, if a therapist is absolutely holding to that expectation, that is a red flag. And to quote legendary Ghost, like, you in danger girl, don't go in there. And so absolutely just no, basically. But adding to more nuance to that, asking the therapist and stuff like what does your process look like as far as obtaining a letter? What do you require? What do you not require? Things like that and just seeing where they're at and where they stand on things. Because usually those kinds of questions can also make space for the therapist to name some of the feelings that they have, which should be more indicative of whether or not it's going to be a good fit.

Like I said, when clients talk to me about it, I'm like, there's a lot of nonsense that keeps people from getting the care they need. So I try to not put up with that, and I try to challenge the system. If someone is saying that to you, like, that's probably a sign that they're going to be a good fit, not going along with all of this ridiculous obstruction. And it just comes down to the fact that there's so much, like, gross stuff regarding, especially the treatment of trans people in the mental health field. And so asking directly with your therapist, where do you stand on these things? And knowing from there, like, if they're going to be a part of the problem or a part of the solution? There are so many deep undercurrent things that people don't realize. Like, for example, the DSM, the person who chairs the committee on gender. So the person who chairs the group of people. That right, the gender dysphoria diagnosis in the DSM practices, conversion therapy.

It's such a problem. And so much of the discrimination and violence that trans people face currently is based on the fact that very early mental health fields were, like, creating the pathology surrounding transness and things like that. And so finding therapists who are going to be a part of challenging those structures and challenging those problems instead of being a part of them, I think is really important.

BROOKS
Yeah, there's so much stickiness and ickiness to it, and I think I just learned a new iteration of the sticky and icky. Like, every time I talk to someone who's trying to access some type of therapy or support, especially when I feel like I've got a lot more folks in my ecosystem accessing therapy for XYZ reasons, even stuff. It's not trans related. Like, I have a friend who is wanting approval to get, like, an emotional support animal and, like, has been tiptoeing around it with a therapist because early on it was discussed, right? Like in a consultation or in an early conversation about that possibility. But the therapist had never written a letter like that before, so was kind of tepid about saying whether or not they would be receptive to doing that. So the relationship seemingly between my friend and their therapist is strong in just everything else that they're doing. But then there's always this kind of lingering. Like, there's technically something else that I need out of this relationship, and it's not getting proactively brought up or looked into by the therapist. And I think that with trans experiences or trans folks trying to access from this very antiquated model that has existed around really trying to police and control the behavior and the visibility and legibility of trans people, that still we're contending with. I also wonder how much that deters trans folks from going to therapy, even if they're not seeking out some of those letters or some of those approvals just because they don't want to be misconstrued as someone who's seeking that out when they're just trying to access therapy beyond maybe their gender experience.

SCHOENIKE
Yeah. And that's the other thing, too, is like once again asking them or seeing if there's space for them to name it, like what the checks and balances are that exist within their work. Even like a fully licensed therapist, independently licensed, like working off on their own, still has obligations to supervision and consultation. We as therapists are not supposed to be like solitary creatures. And so any therapist, you mentioned this example earlier, any therapist saying, I've never done this before, so I'm not going to do this because I don't know how, is bullshit. You have access to these resources, consultation, get supervision, learn how to do the thing that you need to do because if this one client is coming to you for this thing, they're not going to be the last. And you need to do the work. And so just asking where do those checks and balances exist? And also knowing some of those checks and balances yourself as well is really important. So, like, the fact that supervision and consultation does exist. So if a therapist is like, I don't know how to do this, okay, can you get supervision and consultation on it? Because it's not my job to teach you how to do it or to find someone else. Like, I'm paying you to do it. But then also too, just in general, like mistreatment and things like that, if someone's not even looking for a letter, necessarily looking at the fact that we as trans folks obviously aren't a monolith and transness isn’t the entirety of our experience, I might just be a trans person who just happens to be going to therapy for like, work stress or something like that.

One thing that's really important to be mindful of is saliency, which a lot of people aren't aware of. But saliency is this idea of if I, like I said as a trans person, and going to work, like having stress. So I go to therapy to talk about it. The therapist assumes that it's because I'm trans, that I'm having problems.

BROOKS
I mean, maybe, but also not just that.

SCHOENIKE
I mean, maybe, but also what if the therapist is like, oh, it must be like workplace discrimination that's like happening that's causing you to be stressed. And I'm like, no fam, all my coworkers are trans too or something like that. And so that is called saliency, where you're kind of making someone's marginalized experience like the problem, even if it's not the presenting problem that they're coming to talk to you about. And that falls under discrimination, and they can receive an ethics complaint for that.

BROOKS
Oh, goodness. Wow.

SCHOENIKE
So know your resources. No checks and balances that exist. If someone is actually exhibiting discriminatory behavior against you, like file an ethics complaint, like look at their licensing board, things like that, because there are these checks and balances. So we're not shitty therapist.

BROOKS
So I guess brings to mind something else I definitely wanted to chat with you about, right, is like, so you're pretty fresh from your master's program and in training, right. As a family therapist.

SCHOENIKE
Hopefully fully licensed by the end of the year. Fingers crossed.

BROOKS
Yes. Manifesting we're manifesting. I'm curious for you in your grad school like courses. Right. Or just like, what you've come to understand, maybe from other folks in your therapist ecosystem beyond your grad school group. Besides your lived experiences like a queer, nonbinary trans person, what do you feel like? And I already know I already have a good sense of what the answer is here. What do you feel like is the level of preparedness or education that is being offered to folks training to be a therapist of any kind that either prevents a lot of this, either miscommunication, mistreatment, discrimination. Do you feel like if you didn't have the lived experience you have that you'd be prepared to confidently, comfortably and resonantly work with queer and trans clients?

SCHOENIKE
So as I mentioned, I'm a marriage and family therapist and my master's degree was in marriage and family therapy. I'm going to speak from that lens just because that's what I can speak from directly. But I'm going to assume that there's some overlap. Hopefully. The program that I went to was accredited, which is super important if you're shopping around and looking at your therapist, if there's a way that you can see where they went to school and where they were trained and seeing if that's an accredited program, because all the accreditation, like all this higher Ed stuff, because we're bringing it full circle, means that there is a set of standards that the program meets for training their students to get out of the program and work in the field. And so, for example, the program I went to is accredited by COAMFTE, which is like the national accrediting body for marriage and family therapy programs. And they actually have fairly strict requirements for including issues of diversity and social justice in those programs. And if you are not abiding by those things and you're not, like attending to diversity in your curriculum, in your admission practices and your hiring practices, you could lose your accreditation.

BROOKS
Oh, wow. Okay.

SCHOENIKE
How that works in reality versus on paper obviously varies from institution to institution, but there's at least something, which makes me feel a lot better about it. And the fact that so many programs are becoming aware of the fact that there are so many garbage therapists in these areas that they're actually really trying to attend to a lot of these issues and making sure that the people that they're working with are going to be equipped to actually serve the populations that need to be served.

BROOKS
That's promising. I think when I think about my grad school experience, which is obviously not a counseling or therapy field. Right. I went to grad school for higher education. I was just curious from your vantage point, because when I think about how we were trained as higher education practitioners to go into the field. Right. Like we did not get trained, if you will, or adequate information around supporting queer and trans populations, in my opinion. So then to think about my peers in that space kind of entering into their respective functional area after grad school, just like, Yikes, just not my circus, not my monkeys. I can't necessarily do anything about this, but now I know that you're going out into the world inevitably going to be interfacing with queer and trans people. And just like that just feels so disheartening to know that this is really, I guess a commentary and question comment about education in general is just like, how are we really ensuring that especially these types of fields where you're interfacing with people and trying to do some type of support service, whether it's therapy, counseling or advising or identity development. Right. Just like if you're working with people, you should probably be well equipped to engage with the person based on the entirety of who they are, not what you're hoping that person is or based on your singular privileged vantage point. Yeah, you're right. It always comes back to some kind of commentary on education. But knowing that there's kind of those standards, it seems that you're talking about what would be incorporated into the curriculum or the training. Right. Seems that it's at least facing in the right direction to ensure that you're not going to ideally go through a program without some kind of component that gets you to grapple with it, even at a rudimentary level.

SCHOENIKE
Yeah. And the way it manifested in my program specifically, which once again is just my specific program, is we had an entire year worth of courses on culturally sensitive therapy and working with marginalized populations, predominantly like populations of color. And then in our advanced sex therapy class, there was an entire half of the course which was dedicated to LGBT affirming therapy, how to do things like gender letters and stuff like that. So I'm a bit biased. I think my program did a really good job. They also had me and two other trans folks also like keeping an eye on them. But yeah, I think it went fairly well. And I'm hoping that other programs are following suit.

BROOKS
So to shift gears maybe a little bit. Not necessarily shift gears completely, but thinking about right like my reaction to that is, wow, in a place like Menominie, Wisconsin, there's this seemingly thrush. Like, it's not just one course or it's not one week on the syllabus that we're talking about diversity and inclusion in this particular program. You're talking about thinking about how that pertains to rurality and the region that we live in. What would you say is like some key factors that you think about that pertain to either working in a rural space or working in Wisconsin, which may be different or may overlap. Just like, what does it mean to do this work or to think about queer and trans folks in the Midwest region who are either looking to access therapy services or to train to do therapy practices?

SCHOENIKE
There's quite a few components, I think, in working in rural communities as a therapist, especially the type of therapist I am and the type of person I am as a therapist. I think the number one thing is making sure that you're super mindful of work life balance and boundaries and things like that, because you are such a rarity in such a gem in that context that if you are wanting to be doing meaningful work, you have to stay on top of yourself so you don't burn yourself out.

I can't even accurately vocalize the number of times that I've had a potential client reach out with a statement to the tune of like, I didn't think I could find someone like you. It's both really uplifting and just makes me feel really good about the work that I'm doing. But it's also so devastating. And so that's why it's really important that I stay on top of my boundaries and make sure that I'm not, like, burning myself out and doing too much with not enough and like, not then being there for those people who need me and other people like me because it's so inaccessible.

BROOKS
Does that also create any kind of pressure for you to really be exactly what those clients necessarily need because I sought you out? I didn't think you could possibly exist. Does that create a certain pressure for you to be so perfect for them?

SCHOENIKE
Yeah, it does create a bit of pressure. Yeah, it creates a lot of personal pressure. One thing that's come up a lot lately in personal life is like with my fiance pursuing grad school at some point, and bless him, he's also going to school to be a therapist. So all the more like, we love affirming therapist, and especially to the idea of a queer cis man therapist wanting to do a lot of work with men. We need it. But anyways, that's a whole aside, possibly going elsewhere for grad school if that comes depending on what he would get into and stuff like that. And like, our other partner definitely not wanting to live in very cold Wisconsin for the rest of our lives and things like that. If we were to move and I think that's definitely something that's been broached as a subject before, both thinking semi realistically and also just thinking theoretically. But I always noticed this initial reaction that comes up in me where it's like, but wait, I can't leave these people. And I think especially in my unique perspective and where I work specifically with Edges Wellness, which is based out of Minneapolis. And so I'm like one of the sole Wisconsin people right now. And almost the entire staff is like at least some sort of flavor of queer trans. But then all of the rest of them are in Minnesota and serving Minnesota.

I think that dynamic, too, has made it all the more real for me, like how few there are on the Wisconsin side, where it does really feel like if I go elsewhere, what will be left for people? But at the same time, too, I'm hoping that in doing the work that I do that I can model and mentor like other people to be doing the work that I do so that there will be those resources for people. And also, too, if I move elsewhere, there will also be people there who need me and things like that. But yeah, that pressure is definitely there. And like I said, the pressure to maintain top shape, so to say, and staying on top of things so that you can keep seeing people.

BROOKS
Yeah. I mean, the inherent pitfall of representation, I think, is that if you're kind of the stand alone person filling in a representational gap. Right. You're kind of seen as someone that you can't burn out. You can't make a mistake, you have to represent yourself in a certain way because you're the only one. But I think the key initiative you're talking about is how do you mentor and model this kind of practice for other people or kind of build other folks up to be able to continue to fill the gap? So you're not the only one. Bridging the gap is really important. I see that here in Duluth we have I was telling you before we hit record that there's only really one trans affirming doctor. He's not trans. Right. He's doing incredible work, and he's been here for a handful of years now. As long as I've been here, I think so it may be longer, but anytime there's an ask in a Facebook group of like, who should you go to if you're trans, his is the name that pops up. Right. But what he's been doing is definitely working with folks who are kind of in the residency or kind of doing clinic training to kind of really inform them about trans inclusive practices, training folks to do informed consent, hormone approval, really spreading that out because even more north of where I'm at in Northern Minnesota. Right. There's an even greater gap of support and services for trans people. So he's working with folks who intend to go to South Dakota and work on the range here in Minnesota, just like, what does that look like to pass the baton a bit. Right. So that in the instance where you're at a place in your personal life where you want to make changes, it's not contingent on the fact that if you leave the gap, then widens again. That doesn't create this restriction on how you're able to live your life.

If the doctor here ever left, they'd be devastated. But live your life. This is not how the system should be working at this point. There should be ways to be like, well, I have to go, but I'm going to refer you to the slate of people that I can vouch for without any interruption in your care. And that's not where we're at then. That's funny.

SCHOENIKE
Yeah, absolutely. It's really sad. And so I'm really hopeful that I think just time and more people coming out of programs. I think it's going to be really good and really helpful. I think hopefully more people, too, like seeing the value of that rural work because there are so many people who need you and feeling like you can be there to help. It is stressful because of that pressure. Absolutely. But it's also just one of the most beautiful feelings that I can possibly describe. And I just feel like I come out of, like a full client day, and I'm just like feeling so fulfilled. And it's just really beautiful because you're needed and you're getting affirmed and that you pursued a pathway that it seems like it would be mutually beneficial. Right. Like you're pouring into someone, but it's also then not completely just taking and taking and expending from you. Right. It might be arduous, it might be heavy, but it doesn't sound like it's draining all that you have.

SCHOENIKE
Exactly. Yeah. And just being there and seeing some of the real ways that it's making a difference for people. Like I was mentioning earlier, I just had an experience with a client who had their surgery from the letter that I wrote and stuff like that. And so as I get more into my practice and, like, seeing all this stuff happen, it's just so good. And so I'm just hoping more people see that and hoping that more people can join the forces.

BROOKS
Yeah. What do you do for yourself to establish that work life balance? Because I'm of the opinion work life balance doesn't exist, but I'm happy to support folks who are looking for that way. I do believe in burnout. Right. Like, burnout is super real. So what do you do to self soothe, to work through the burnout, to come out of a rough day, to rev down? What are some of your personal practices that you think are helpful?

SCHOENIKE
Yeah, burnout is definitely real. I think first and foremost, I have my own therapist, which. Yeah, I think any therapist who doesn't have their own therapist, I just get concerns of. I'm like, are you a robot? Like what's happening here? And also it just feels like this fun dynamic too. I was seeing this meme like a while back talking about, like, is your therapist’s therapist, like, your grand therapist and stuff like that. So I have a couple of clients where I would talk about things that I learned in my own therapy and passing that wisdom along and I would jokingly refer to them like as your grand therapist and stuff like that. And also too, I just love the idea of eventually just going up the chain. Who's the master therapist at the end of the chain?

BROOKS
They're definitely a robot, for sure.

SCHOENIKE
Or it's just a circle because then they go to the bottom person. But yeah, so definitely going to my own therapy. One of the benefits to, I think of being like a training therapist rather than fully licensed is the fact that I have weekly supervision, which is really helpful. And so getting to have a space where I can process and get feedback and things like that on the work that I'm doing and just feel supported makes the weight itself less heavy. And then also just figuring out those boundaries that work for you. There's a lot of therapists who recognize the benefit of access there is for clients of working on weekends and like having weekend slots. I love that and appreciate that I'm just not that person.

BROOKS
Keep your weekends.

SCHOENIKE
I only work Monday through Thursday and then I keep Friday open for admin, catching up on emails. And then also as one of my colleagues affectionately referred to as an oh, shit day for crisis sessions if anyone needs to fit in, like ASAP, just being really mindful of my schedule, like what's too early for me to be working? What's too late for me to be working? And also how does that fit into how many hours I'm wanting to be working? Both so I don't burn myself out but also can eat. Yeah, that's important. And so that I think, is the most minute balance of it or not minute, like acute balance of it where it's like not working too much to burn yourself out but not working not enough in a way that's unsustainable because capitalist hellscape.

BROOKS
It always comes back to capitalism. It always comes back to capitalism.

SCHOENIKE
And just being really intentional about things, like trying to spend time with my partners, like when I get home and when I can see them and like playing some video games like Animal Crossing and Stardew Valley are doing me so dirty right now because I can't focus on anything else and just doing things that bring you joy. And especially too I think as a therapist, it's really important to model that for your clients.

BROOKS
100%. Yeah.

SCHOENIKE
Because I think it's important to set those boundaries. It's important to show you need to take care of yourself because also if we're saying all these things and telling our clients to do these things, but we're not doing them themselves, that's a problem. I have this brilliant professor in my program, and she made the statement of like, how did she word it? It was something to the tune of like, I shouldn't ask clients to do something I'm not willing to do myself. And I think that's super important. And so if I'm saying, hey, how do you manage life and self care and work boundaries and things like that? And then I'm not doing it myself within reason, because I'm human and I make mistakes too. But then like, what the fuck?

BROOKS
That totally makes sense.

SCHOENIKE
And then also giving myself the humanity, and the grace when I do mess up and I'm not doing great about it because I do the same thing with my clients. Like, hey, things are slipping through the cracks right now, but you're trying your best. Like, I see you. I hear you.

BROOKS
Like you said early on, that's a relationship. And I think in any relationship, there's going to be instances where things are in sync and things are reciprocal and things are vibing. And then there's going to be times where there's miscommunication. Not the type of miscommunication where a therapist isn't listening or a therapist can't lock into an understanding of someone's marginalized experience that they don't hold. I think that's different, right? But just like, oh, we're miscommunicating because we're on a different page or I'm not clear on exactly what this means for you. Just like any type of relationship where you kind of have to go the level deeper. I think just understanding that and using it seems like using tools that we would with a friendship or romantic partner, or just like the type of relationship that you have, what are the ways in which you're participating actively in that relationship to move it further and move it deeper so that there's less chance for miscommunication, there's less chance for inadvertent harm. And then what do you do when that harm might happen? Seems like that all just needs to be a part of it. And it seems like you enter into that space with the level of humanity upheld to understand that I'm here to guide you. I'm not here to dictate what you're supposed to do. I don't believe it's. What therapist is supposed to do, right? I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm here to help you unearth what you want to do, to address what you're telling me is causing you issues. Right? Exactly. It seems pretty straightforward. Seems pretty straightforward to me. But as we've discussed for a chunk of this time. Right. Like that's seemingly not as obvious.

SCHOENIKE
Which once again, as I said before, we got on the record button, half of the reason I'm a therapist is because there's so many shitty ones.

BROOKS
And you also said too, right, in addition to the list of things that folks should be thinking about when they're looking for being in right relationship with their therapist and asking questions or whatever. You also said, what?

SCHOENIKE
So when you are with a therapist and if it's not fitting or it's not working or you feel like you're not getting out what you wanted, you have every right in the world to fire your therapist.

BROOKS
You're allowed to fire your therapist. Right? And I don't think folks want to think that they're allowed to do that because they're paying for you're paying for a service. Ultimately, you're building a relationship through paying for a service in the same way that you can say, I don't want to do this anymore, right? Like you can fire your therapist.

SCHOENIKE
Yes. I'm not getting what I need. It's not working. Also too, I feel like I'm doing good and I don't need this anymore. Granted, I'm a little biased and I always think sticking around for maintenance as needed every once in a while is great. But also too, like you do you your journey is yours. But yeah, if you are not vibing or something's not right, or also, like, there's an irreparable rupture, you have absolutely every right to walk away. The first freaking thing that you sign when you do therapy is that informed consent saying that you have the right to withdraw at any time. That is your right. And I think the one barrier is like the service component of it. I'm paying for this. I should be getting something out of it kind of a thing. And then also to ye olde Midwest not wanting to hurt your therapist feeling, which I will be straight up. There are times probably if I get fired by a client, like, it will probably be very sad or unfortunate, or I will like wonder, like what could I have done differently or all these things. Absolutely. But that's my work to do, not yours.

BROOKS
Yeah, the Midwest convention of avoiding conflict with your therapist is probably something you need to work out with another therapist.

SCHOENIKE
Exactly. Yeah, there might be some feelings, but also too any good therapist will like any of those personal feelings. Like, fine, but it will also have the overarching layer of like, this is also their decision for them and this is probably for the best. And if they're not able to parse that part out, they were probably a bad therapist to begin with. So it's really fucking good that you're firing them.

BROOKS
Dodged a bullet.

SCHOENIKE
So yes, fire your therapist if it's not working out, or if you don't want to get there yet, you also can just have a constructive conversation and say, this is not working. I need to figure out what we can do differently.

BROOKS
I envision a future where you're like the therapist middle person and your additional services include mediating a conversation as a therapist with Midwestern queer trans folks with their therapist. That's what I am seeing for you in the future.

SCHOENIKE
I love that. And sometimes that kind of stuff does happen, too. That can happen, especially if it's like a supervisory position. Like a supervisor could step into the therapy and things like that and do that kind of mediation. It's fun stuff. So, yeah, fire your therapist if you need to, or put them on probation or something like that. Hold them accountable, frankly.

BROOKS
As we're wrapping up, I want to give space that if you have any parting words of wisdom, additional advocacy, you'd like to share, any resources you'd like to highlight, especially anything that you want to name as we're wrapping up shop here.

SCHOENIKE
Yeah, absolutely. So finding a therapist is really hard. And so obviously there's like the Psychology Today that's a really good and comprehensive wide resource for finding therapists near you or who can see you. But there's also this other one that I've become acquainted with after getting listed on it myself, which, like, pros and cons, like, okay, Psychology Today more broad, so you're more likely to find something. But whether or not it's great, it's a question. Inclusivetherapist.com is absolutely lovely. Now, once again, less people are on it. And so it might be a more difficult time finding people in your area or within your reach. But if you do find people, they're all the more likely to be not hot garbage. Okay. And so inclusivetherapist.com, not sponsored, but if they want to pay me, it would be great.

Yeah. So like I said, it's a journey trying to find your therapist. You have the power to ask questions, and therapy is scary, but you deserve wellness and you deserve happiness and fulfillment, and you deserve therapy. And I think it can be really scary telling people that they should go to therapy because it's this idea of like, oh, I'm so broken that I need professional intervention on this. But it's like, no, it's this thing that is healing, hopefully. And you deserve access to that healing.

If you are struggling, please look for a therapist even if you're not struggling. I think maintenance work is great. And there's nothing wrong with having someone to check in on every one week to two weeks just to help organize your brain on how things are going in your life. If that's accessible to you, therapy is great when it's the right fit and with decent people, and they do exist.

BROOKS
So this has been a treat. I appreciate you sharing all your infinite wisdom and your excitement around your emerging profession. So, yeah, I appreciate you very much.

SCHOENIKE
Appreciate you, too.

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Our inbox is open for all of your insight, feedback, questions, boycotts, memes and other forms of written correspondence. You can contact us at [e-mail]. This podcast is made possible by the labor and commitment of the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity staff. Particular shout out to Justin, Andy and Nick for all of your support with editing, promotion and production. Our amazing and queer as fuck cover art was designed by Adrienne McCormick.

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