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It was 51 years ago we celebrated the inaugural Earth Day. That was April 22, 1970. An estimated 20 million people participated back in 1970 and the observance has since become a global phenomenon. MSU Today is observing and celebrating Earth Day 2021 with a conversation with two highly regarded experts in environmental policy and environmental law.
Show Notes
James Clift is the deputy director of the Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes, and Energy. And before that, he served as policy director for the Michigan Environmental Council. Saulius Mikalonis is a widely respected environmental attorney in the Bloomfield Hills office of Plunkett Cooney.
“The impact and insignificance of Earth Day is that it started the ball rolling,” Mikalonis tells host Kirk Heinze. “Shortly thereafter, the EPA was created, and the Clean Water Act and Clean Air Act were passed. There were environmental statutes that were in the books before that, but they were very mild and not very well enforced.
“Environmental issues were always things that people were concerned about, but it didn't become actionable until they had a critical mass of people to work on it and the legislation passed.”
“I like Earth Day in that it helps trigger people's memory,” adds Clift. “How long have we been at this? It’s been 50 years since the first one. It’s good for people to think about how much progress have we made over time or areas where maybe there's been a little bit of a lack of progress. But if you don't have an end date, a mark to kind of put in the sand, it's sometimes hard to conceptualize the time that is passing.”
“What are some of the key implications for the environment that you see in the early stages of the Biden administration?” asks Heinze.
“The infrastructure package is key, and I think it's really kind of interesting how it overlaps Earth Day in a way,” Clift says. “We really built today's water infrastructure in the '60s and the '70s through some of the grant programs that were developed at that time.
“Well, that infrastructure is now 50 years old and is in much need of help. And that old aging infrastructure is having public health impacts in communities across the state. It's really a great tribute to Earth Day in the country to say, ‘Okay, now it's time to, collectively, readdress this infrastructure question that we've been ignoring in large part and help get the economy rolling again in a way that's going to improve public health, especially in a lot of the cities across the nation.’"
The trio discusses the growth of renewable energy sources.
“It’s interesting,” says Mikalonis, “that private equity renewable energy investments in the United States in 2020 were $23.7 billion. This is private money; this is not federal money. This is not state money. These are private dollars going into renewable energy.
“It’s heartening to see industry realizing this is not only the right thing to do, but it's because it's profitable to do it, and that's probably the true sign of where we’re headed.
“The millennials and people following them, they're very in tune with this stuff. And those are our future employees and consumers. Companies want to make those people happy.”
“Switching from the internal combustion engine to electric vehicles is going to be a significant transition for the auto industry and you have to plan for that,” Clift adds. “You have to be out ahead of that. What are those skills that are going to be needed in the future for auto workers? What's going to happen to the supply chain? How is that supply chain going to change? Where's that manufacturing going to happen? Who's going to make those batteries?
“If you're not thinking about all those things 15 years in advance, you're going to suffer some transition pains that could have been avoided if you planned it right. Think about it through that equity lens. Where is it going to impact certain communities within the state? Making sure that when we address something like climate, we're doing it in a way that's thinking about its impact on all of the residents of Michigan and making sure this is an inclusive process moving forward.”
Heinze, Clift, and Mikalonis talk about water, too, and the status of Line 5 in the Straits of Mackinac.
“The good is that Lake Michigan is 11 inches lower than it was last year,” says Clift. “We're just coming off of the five wettest years in our history, and it was clearly causing some challenges around the shores and with systems throughout the state. We were pretty happy with the mild winter and the drier spring up until now; it's making this much more manageable.
“But, long-term, we realize we've got to look at climate change and how it's impacting the lakes. Is our water infrastructure ready for more variability and larger storm events? Can we handle those storms? That's when we see a lot of the nutrient pollution runoff from farms. It is occurring during those larger storm events leading to the algae blooms that we're seeing in Lake Erie and in some of other bodies of water. From a getting-ready-for-resiliency standpoint, there are a lot of investments we need to make in that storm-water infrastructure system to make sure that we handle that variability in the future.”
“There are so many new contaminants, emerging contaminants, and contaminants people aren't even thinking about,” Mikalonis adds. “One example is the effect of all the people taking antidepressants because of being locked in their homes and the effect on the biology of the lakes. That stuff isn’t filtered when it goes through the treatment system. There's a lot of stuff that isn't filtered when it goes to the treatment system. You have a bunch of fish sucking down Xanax and who knows what else.
“And so that's another issue that's going to be coming up in the future. I don't know the answer or how to address it, but there's such a mix of chemicals and people just don't know how they interact and how they affect them and us.
“I would be shocked if we, in our blood system right now, don't have seven parts per trillion of PFAS in us, considering how ubiquitous this stuff is. It's in everything, and it has been around since the late '50s when 3M developed it. It's everywhere and I'm dealing with it with a number of clients on a regular basis. That is going to be a huge issue because it's not easily treatable. It moves through the water very quickly and I don't think we have a full grasp on what the negative effects of that stuff are.”
“What is plan B if Line 5 gets disrupted?” asks Clift. “Where would the energy come from? Where would the other petroleum products come from and how would it get to the various end users? The key is trying to make sure that these other systems that we might be required to rely on at some point are robust as possible to avoid any kind of disruption or any price spike that could occur, regardless of whether the disruption occurred due to a legal filing or if it was an unplanned disruption in the pipeline infrastructure.
“And something else here is really important. Let's address the underlying problem here, which is the addiction of fossil fuels that this country is on and try to reduce that need for fossil fuels and the climate impacts of those and make sure that we reduce our need for those sources long-term.”
How will the pandemic impact our sustainable future?
“There will be some temporary and short-term benefits due to fewer carbon emissions from so many people working from home,” says Mikalonis. “Long term, though, the trend of working from home is likely to continue. And if you cut travel by half, what is that going to do to air emissions? If you're not driving 500 miles a week in your car, maybe the next car you buy will be an EV as opposed to something with a gas tank.
“I don't think we have any idea. I think maybe five years from now we'll be able to look back and say, ‘Oh, okay, this was because of this. This was because of this.’ I can't see the future. I do know that when things like this happen, there are permanent changes. And I think you only realize them when you look back in retrospect.”
“One of the things to think about is where science fits in to solving problems,” says Clift. “We have to make decisions based on best available information. And I think governors across the country have made some really tough choices based on the understanding at that time. The pandemic has highlighted our disinvestment in local public health in a significant way. And you build up that infrastructure to get you through times like this.
“The other part of the science that I think has been fascinating is we've been doing a fair amount of work in studying wastewater. By testing wastewater, we can we tell where the next COVID outbreak is going to be. And I think that's going to have a lot of applications in different areas over time where we can look at precursors to disease vectors happening and make sure that we're staying in front of them to the extent possible.
“Over time, we have built a deeper understanding and now we're dealing with environmental issues that are tougher, in a way. When you look at trying to address non-point pollution issues with the water, they tend to be a little harder to tackle.
“We're also looking at more dimensions of every single problem we're looking at. We're looking at what's the environmental justice impact? What's going to be the labor impact? What's going to be the just transition that's going to get us through this? I think that's a very positive thing. We're looking at problems much more holistically and hopefully that will lead to more holistic answers to them moving forward.
“And as Saulius mentioned, we’re seeing the private sector step up in this area. Many companies tend to think from quarter to quarter. But there are a lot of companies that have been around for a while that are thinking to themselves, ‘Hey, if we don't change our business practice, all of a sudden we're only going to be around for another decade or two and then we might be history.’ So they're joining in and trying to solve these problems. And I'm hoping that that will change the dynamic in a way that I think can provide people a little bit of hope that maybe we can address some of these very challenging problems that we have in front of us.”
“Probably the thing that I find most hopeful is the buy-in from corporate America,” says Mikalonis. “Everybody's heard the term greenwashing, right? Are you just saying this because that's what you think your customers and the people you want to work for want to hear? There's a generational change coming. The boomers are exiting, stage right. But the people who are coming up from behind are different. Obviously they're not all the same; there's no generation that moves in lockstep. But it is a different way of thinking for a lot of these people.
“And I think a lot of these companies, the ones that will last, realize that their future employees and their future customers have certain expectations that they had better meet. And if they don't, they may be the dinosaurs. They'll be exiting stage right with us boomers.”
MSU Today airs Sunday mornings at 9:00 on 105.1 FM and AM 870, and streams at wkar.org. Find “MSU Today with Russ White” on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your shows.
“The impact and insignificance of Earth Day is that it started the ball rolling,” Mikalonis tells host Kirk Heinze. “Shortly thereafter, the EPA was created, and the Clean Water Act and Clean Air Act were passed. There were environmental statutes that were in the books before that, but they were very mild and not very well enforced.
“Environmental issues were always things that people were concerned about, but it didn't become actionable until they had a critical mass of people to work on it and the legislation passed.”
“I like Earth Day in that it helps trigger people's memory,” adds Clift. “How long have we been at this? It’s been 50 years since the first one. It’s good for people to think about how much progress have we made over time or areas where maybe there's been a little bit of a lack of progress. But if you don't have an end date, a mark to kind of put in the sand, it's sometimes hard to conceptualize the time that is passing.”
“What are some of the key implications for the environment that you see in the early stages of the Biden administration?” asks Heinze.
“The infrastructure package is key, and I think it's really kind of interesting how it overlaps Earth Day in a way,” Clift says. “We really built today's water infrastructure in the '60s and the '70s through some of the grant programs that were developed at that time.
“Well, that infrastructure is now 50 years old and is in much need of help. And that old aging infrastructure is having public health impacts in communities across the state. It's really a great tribute to Earth Day in the country to say, ‘Okay, now it's time to, collectively, readdress this infrastructure question that we've been ignoring in large part and help get the economy rolling again in a way that's going to improve public health, especially in a lot of the cities across the nation.’"
The trio discusses the growth of renewable energy sources.
“It’s interesting,” says Mikalonis, “that private equity renewable energy investments in the United States in 2020 were $23.7 billion. This is private money; this is not federal money. This is not state money. These are private dollars going into renewable energy.
“It’s heartening to see industry realizing this is not only the right thing to do, but it's because it's profitable to do it, and that's probably the true sign of where we’re headed.
“The millennials and people following them, they're very in tune with this stuff. And those are our future employees and consumers. Companies want to make those people happy.”
“Switching from the internal combustion engine to electric vehicles is going to be a significant transition for the auto industry and you have to plan for that,” Clift adds. “You have to be out ahead of that. What are those skills that are going to be needed in the future for auto workers? What's going to happen to the supply chain? How is that supply chain going to change? Where's that manufacturing going to happen? Who's going to make those batteries?
“If you're not thinking about all those things 15 years in advance, you're going to suffer some transition pains that could have been avoided if you planned it right. Think about it through that equity lens. Where is it going to impact certain communities within the state? Making sure that when we address something like climate, we're doing it in a way that's thinking about its impact on all of the residents of Michigan and making sure this is an inclusive process moving forward.”
Heinze, Clift, and Mikalonis talk about water, too, and the status of Line 5 in the Straits of Mackinac.
“The good is that Lake Michigan is 11 inches lower than it was last year,” says Clift. “We're just coming off of the five wettest years in our history, and it was clearly causing some challenges around the shores and with systems throughout the state. We were pretty happy with the mild winter and the drier spring up until now; it's making this much more manageable.
“But, long-term, we realize we've got to look at climate change and how it's impacting the lakes. Is our water infrastructure ready for more variability and larger storm events? Can we handle those storms? That's when we see a lot of the nutrient pollution runoff from farms. It is occurring during those larger storm events leading to the algae blooms that we're seeing in Lake Erie and in some of other bodies of water. From a getting-ready-for-resiliency standpoint, there are a lot of investments we need to make in that storm-water infrastructure system to make sure that we handle that variability in the future.”
“There are so many new contaminants, emerging contaminants, and contaminants people aren't even thinking about,” Mikalonis adds. “One example is the effect of all the people taking antidepressants because of being locked in their homes and the effect on the biology of the lakes. That stuff isn’t filtered when it goes through the treatment system. There's a lot of stuff that isn't filtered when it goes to the treatment system. You have a bunch of fish sucking down Xanax and who knows what else.
“And so that's another issue that's going to be coming up in the future. I don't know the answer or how to address it, but there's such a mix of chemicals and people just don't know how they interact and how they affect them and us.
“I would be shocked if we, in our blood system right now, don't have seven parts per trillion of PFAS in us, considering how ubiquitous this stuff is. It's in everything, and it has been around since the late '50s when 3M developed it. It's everywhere and I'm dealing with it with a number of clients on a regular basis. That is going to be a huge issue because it's not easily treatable. It moves through the water very quickly and I don't think we have a full grasp on what the negative effects of that stuff are.”
“What is plan B if Line 5 gets disrupted?” asks Clift. “Where would the energy come from? Where would the other petroleum products come from and how would it get to the various end users? The key is trying to make sure that these other systems that we might be required to rely on at some point are robust as possible to avoid any kind of disruption or any price spike that could occur, regardless of whether the disruption occurred due to a legal filing or if it was an unplanned disruption in the pipeline infrastructure.
“And something else here is really important. Let's address the underlying problem here, which is the addiction of fossil fuels that this country is on and try to reduce that need for fossil fuels and the climate impacts of those and make sure that we reduce our need for those sources long-term.”
How will the pandemic impact our sustainable future?
“There will be some temporary and short-term benefits due to fewer carbon emissions from so many people working from home,” says Mikalonis. “Long term, though, the trend of working from home is likely to continue. And if you cut travel by half, what is that going to do to air emissions? If you're not driving 500 miles a week in your car, maybe the next car you buy will be an EV as opposed to something with a gas tank.
“I don't think we have any idea. I think maybe five years from now we'll be able to look back and say, ‘Oh, okay, this was because of this. This was because of this.’ I can't see the future. I do know that when things like this happen, there are permanent changes. And I think you only realize them when you look back in retrospect.”
“One of the things to think about is where science fits in to solving problems,” says Clift. “We have to make decisions based on best available information. And I think governors across the country have made some really tough choices based on the understanding at that time. The pandemic has highlighted our disinvestment in local public health in a significant way. And you build up that infrastructure to get you through times like this.
“The other part of the science that I think has been fascinating is we've been doing a fair amount of work in studying wastewater. By testing wastewater, we can we tell where the next COVID outbreak is going to be. And I think that's going to have a lot of applications in different areas over time where we can look at precursors to disease vectors happening and make sure that we're staying in front of them to the extent possible.
“Over time, we have built a deeper understanding and now we're dealing with environmental issues that are tougher, in a way. When you look at trying to address non-point pollution issues with the water, they tend to be a little harder to tackle.
“We're also looking at more dimensions of every single problem we're looking at. We're looking at what's the environmental justice impact? What's going to be the labor impact? What's going to be the just transition that's going to get us through this? I think that's a very positive thing. We're looking at problems much more holistically and hopefully that will lead to more holistic answers to them moving forward.
“And as Saulius mentioned, we’re seeing the private sector step up in this area. Many companies tend to think from quarter to quarter. But there are a lot of companies that have been around for a while that are thinking to themselves, ‘Hey, if we don't change our business practice, all of a sudden we're only going to be around for another decade or two and then we might be history.’ So they're joining in and trying to solve these problems. And I'm hoping that that will change the dynamic in a way that I think can provide people a little bit of hope that maybe we can address some of these very challenging problems that we have in front of us.”
“Probably the thing that I find most hopeful is the buy-in from corporate America,” says Mikalonis. “Everybody's heard the term greenwashing, right? Are you just saying this because that's what you think your customers and the people you want to work for want to hear? There's a generational change coming. The boomers are exiting, stage right. But the people who are coming up from behind are different. Obviously they're not all the same; there's no generation that moves in lockstep. But it is a different way of thinking for a lot of these people.
“And I think a lot of these companies, the ones that will last, realize that their future employees and their future customers have certain expectations that they had better meet. And if they don't, they may be the dinosaurs. They'll be exiting stage right with us boomers.”
MSU Today airs Sunday mornings at 9:00 on 105.1 FM and AM 870, and streams at wkar.org. Find “MSU Today with Russ White” on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your shows.
Creators & Guests
What is MSU Today with Russ White?
MSU Today is a lively look at Michigan State University-related people, places, events and attitudes put into focus by Russ White. The show airs Saturdays at 5 P.M. and Sundays at 5 A.M. on 102.3 FM and AM 870 WKAR, and 8 P.M. on AM 760 WJR.
Unknown Speaker 0:00
51 years ago, we celebrated the inaugural Earth Day that was April 22 1970. An estimated 20 million folks participated back in 1970. And the observance has set since become a global phenomenon. msu today is observing and celebrating Earth Day 2021 with a conversation with two highly regarded experts in environmental policy, and environmental law, James Clift is the deputy director of the Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes and energy. And before that, he served as policy director for the Michigan Environmental Council. And our other guest solace. MC aloneness is a widely respected environmental attorney in the Bloomfield Hills Office of Plunkett Cooney. Let's start solace, let's begin with you. Same question to James as well as some of your thoughts on the significance and the impact of Earth Day over all these 51 years and maybe a favorite story or two, that you could share some of your Earth Day adventures.
Unknown Speaker 1:05
My first boss in DC, when I graduated from Michigan was Dennis Hayes, who was who had that, who was one of the founders of Earth Day, he came from the anti war movement, and they took all those same techniques and moved it over to environmental work. And so the interesting thing about that was he was my boss at solar lobby, pp started the solar lobby center for renewable resources, which was the lobbying and industry group for renewable energy back in the early 80s. And, you know, I remember sitting in his office and talking about, you know, his background and his history and things like that. Very interesting, very accomplished, man. And and I don't think I don't think he envisioned how big this would be 50 years later, I don't think anybody did. But yeah, that was a that's one thing I can take away from. And what about impact and significance? Well, the impact and significance is that, you know, it started the ball rolling. I mean, shortly thereafter, EPA was created Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act. You know, there were all there were environmental statutes, there were in the books before that, but they were very mild and, and not very well enforced. That got the ball rolling with all the people. And it became, you know, environmental issues were always things that people were concerned about. But it didn't become actionable until they had a critical mass of people to work on it. And the legislation passed and, and I think that's probably the biggest takeaway from Earth Day, it got the ball rolling.
Unknown Speaker 2:38
James, I was a senior at Albion college on that first Earth Day, and there was a big observance down in Albion, because one of the crops was hooked into Gaylord Nelson back then I'll never forget that. But how about your experiences with Earth Day and the significance there of
Unknown Speaker 2:53
like Earth Day, and that it helps trigger people's memory? How long have we been at this? You know, 50 years since the first one. And maybe, you know, once you went to college, the first time you went to a celebration, and now you're you're marking it as Oh, there's 30 years since I was at that particular event. And I think it's good for people to think about how much progress have we made over time, or areas where maybe there's been a little bit of a lack of progress. But if if you don't have a kind of a an end data mark to kind of put in the sand, it's sometimes hard to kind of conceptualize the time that is passing. I've worked under I think it's five different governors now, you know, since I guy came to the state capitol, and I think about the different flavor of the events that I've seen on the Capitol lawn, you know, celebrating Earth Day, over the years, but again, it's always a good time to see people kind of come together for that common cause. Any special memory that you have a particular Earth Day, James, to me, it's, you know, there's just, you know, part of it sometimes it's like, Who is there, the group of, you know, activists I was working with, at the time, some of my early years at the Michigan Environmental Council, I particularly remember, and that it just seemed like it was just really good energy we had going, and some of the initiatives, initiatives we undertook at that time. I think were really kind of positive and kind of rebuilding a movement, maybe that that had kind of, you know, it was, you know, maybe that's at the midpoint of that 50 years, and just to see it kind of reinvigorated in different generations.
Unknown Speaker 4:36
The same question for both of you here. The Biden administration is moving quickly, as you know, on a number of fronts, many of which have major implications for sustainability across the board the 1.9 trillion Coronavirus relief package, the 2 trillion infrastructure plan that's under discussion, the Biden budget. James swier perspective, what are some of the key implications for the environment? That you see, in the early stages of the Biden administration,
Unknown Speaker 5:04
I think this infrastructure package is key. And I think it really kind of interesting how it overlaps or day in a way, where you think about that we really kind of built today's water infrastructure was kind of built in the 60s and 70s, through some of the grant programs that were developed at that time. Well, that infrastructure is now 50 years old, and is in much need of help. So and, and that that old aging infrastructure is having public health impacts in communities across the state. So it's really, in my mind, kind of a great tribute, you know, to kind of Earth Day in the country to say, Okay, now it's time to collectively re address this infrastructure question that we've been ignoring in large part, and kind of help got to get the economy rolling again, in a way that's going to improve public health, especially in a lot of the cities across the nation,
Unknown Speaker 6:00
a solid, what are your thoughts in terms of the direction of the Biden administration and implications for sustainability,
Unknown Speaker 6:07
but the first thing that I noticed was that the by the administration tried to right off the bat tried to, like turn the clock back a little bit on the four years preceding his inauguration. And I think infrastructure is huge. Because if you think about, you know, the New Deal under Roosevelt, and there's a reason Biden has a bust of Roosevelt in his office, right, the infrastructure goes, You know, I know that, you know, waterworks and things like that, 60s, but I mean, think about the water delivery system, in cities like Flint, and and elsewhere in the country. You know, those things are well beyond their normal lives. And I think the infrastructure bill will address that. And at the same time, you know, you're you're, you're improving people's lives, immediately. you're providing jobs, you're, you're improving water quality. There's so many, so many things that we've kicked, we've kicked the can down the road so long, and it's about time we start paying, I mean, 2 trillion seems like a lot of money. It's probably a drop in the bucket, if you consider all the delayed efforts and things like that, that we should have been doing all along, and we didn't do. So this is just the first step. That's that's the way I look at it. I
Unknown Speaker 7:18
you mentioned the Roosevelt administration. That seems like in the past, when America has been bold in terms of infrastructure, I think of rural electrification, the Transcontinental Railroad, for example, the highway system, nobody really thinks back on those things. And you know, and remembers the arguments about how much money they were going to cost. People were just happy that we had the foresight to do them. Right. Well, I
Unknown Speaker 7:42
mean, I heard a comment last week, I mean, it they didn't consider those things, quote, unquote, infrastructure until they were built and people started using them. Right.
Unknown Speaker 7:52
And so, so we have these things in place, you know, even even things like broadband in rural areas. I mean, their whole parts of this country that are behind through no fault of their own, and we have the money and the wherewithal to improve people's lives in a number of ways. And in this the way I look at, it seems like a pretty logical thing to do. James Clift, as you know, as we all know, Michigan's former governor, you mentioned you've served under several governors with Jennifer Granholm is the new Secretary of Energy. And I remember talking to her and Russel remember this as well, I was one of her last interviews that she did before leaving office, but she said that she considered her initiatives regarding renewable energy as among the most important legacies of her two terms as governor. It seems like Whitmer is continuing that that legacy. What are your thoughts on on where we are with renewable energy? And how does the Whitmer administration compared to maybe Granholm Snyder and even divided administration's in that regard?
Unknown Speaker 8:57
Again, I think it's important in the similarities. If you look at when Granholm coming into office in 2008. And the recession that we were in at that time, the investment that was made in renewable energy over the next four or five years of billions of dollars was kind of spent building that first wave of renewable energy resources across Michigan. You know, I sometimes think about how bad the economy would have been, if we wouldn't have implemented that clean energy standard right in 2008. And kind of created those jobs. And again, there was a learning curve, because there always is where the cost was a little higher to begin with. But we saw the cost of wind energy dropped from 11 cents a kilowatt hour down to about five cents a kilowatt hour in a very short period of time. So again, we learned how to do it now. We're kind of continuing to see that build out of wind but also now we're seeing you know, utility scale solar across the state of Michigan, really starting to replace those fossil fuel resources and address the, you know, the major challenge of climate change going forward. So again, that that superimposing that that recession in need for that economic development with that investment in kind of, you know, Michigan made energy to that one's gonna provide us, you know, services for decades to come. On top of that, I think there are two, Governor Whitmer is also recognizing that you need to go kind of beyond that renewable energy. And I think that's why she has tasked us with looking in creating the Michigan healthy climate plan, and realizing that if you're going to have to get beyond just the way you produce energy, but to start to look at those energy intensive industries, what's it going to take them to reduce their carbon in pack, you know, looking at the future of vehicles that we know is critical to Michigan. Again, the similarities is in that looking forward and seeing what Michigan is gonna, what's power, what's going to power Michigan in the future, I think
Unknown Speaker 11:09
I'm having an Earth Day conversation with James Clift, who is Deputy Director of the Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes and energy, and solace. MC aloneness, who's a environmental attorney with Plunkett Cooney out of the Bloomfield Hills Office, a solid, your thoughts too on renewable energy? And, you know, as you well know, consumers and DTE Energy have made commitments to renewable and retirement of coal fire. Are we moving fast enough and probably good news for fast moving pace on renewable energies with Granholm in the in the cabinet? So the government incentives the ways to get this process moving? Remember, I
Unknown Speaker 11:53
go back to solar lobby days back in the 80s. Right. And, and one of the reasons I didn't stay in that industry is because right after Ronald Reagan was elected after he fired all the air traffic controllers, he essentially gutted on renewable energy. So you know, put us back probably 1520 years. And, you know, the government's role is to take a long view, right? corporations look quarter to quarter, the government supposed to take a long view. And so they make certain investments and things like that with that in mind. But that essentially what that does is it Prime's the pump, and sets things in place where industry can come in. Now, it's interesting. So today, I read an article from axios. on my computer right now, that private equity, renewable energy investments, the United States in 2020 was $23.7 billion. This is private money. This is not federal money. This is not state money. These are private dollars going into renewable energy. There was another article that came out today, I think it's Chevron is now put a huge stake in offshore wind invested a ton of money on offshore wind. So you know, when you look at, you know, what is what what's Granholm going to do is as DMV director, administrator or, or, you know, what are we going to do in Michigan? Those are really important. But the true sign is, is what is industry doing, right? auto industry, you know, kicking a dragon, all of a sudden, they're all in on E V's, right electric vehicles and stuff like that. So, so this is all part and parcel of many moving parts. And we can't really just focus on one, and it's very heartening to see, you know, industry realizing, you know, this is not only because it's the right thing to do, but it's because it's profitable to do it. That's, and that's probably the true sign. And it's something you know, when I was back in the 80s, we were arguing this will be profitable. And so that's where we are.
Unknown Speaker 13:46
Yeah, I was thinking about that. And the email that we exchange, I remember talking to someone years ago, with the World Wildlife Fund talking about, in this particular case, it was sustaining certain species and leadership for climate change and what have you. And 10 years ago, they were saying that the leadership even then was coming from some of the major corporations across the globe. And that's where it has to go, even though government incentives
Unknown Speaker 14:13
are certainly important. Yeah. And I think I think part of that also is, you know, the up and coming, the the people that are coming up the generation, you know, the millennials, and people following them, they're very in tune in this stuff. And those are future employees, consumers, and things like that. They want to make those people happy. And maybe this is kind of mccobb. But the people who don't believe that are serving sunsetting, in a way.
Unknown Speaker 14:37
I James, from your perspective, with Eagle Eye downtown, I mean, you're probably interacting with folks in Michigan corporations and maybe beyond Michigan all the time. Would you concur with what solace has said about private sector?
Unknown Speaker 14:51
I do. But again, I liked what he said about you know, the role of the private sector and the role of the public sector government. I think that So looking at electric vehicles and autonomous vehicles, and mobility is a good example of that, you know, switching from the internal combustion engine to electric vehicles is going to be significant transition for the auto industry. And you got to plan for that you got to be out ahead of that really think about, you know, what are those skills that are going to be needed in the future for auto workers? You know, what's going to happen to the supply chain? You know, how is that supply chain gonna change? Where's that manufacturing going to happen? Who's going to make those batteries? So if you're not thinking about all those things, you know, 15 years in advance, you're going to kind of suffer some transition pains that could have been avoided, if you planned it. Right. So I think that's where governor Whitmer is really kind of sharp and looking at that, are we making sure that transition is going to be just making sure that labor, if we're going to think about this and think about what we're going to need to retrain? Think about it through that equity lens, you know, where where is it going to impact certain communities within the state, you know, making sure that when we kind of address something like climate, we're doing it in a way that's thinking about its impact on all of the residents of Michigan, and making sure this is kind of an inclusive process moving forward.
Unknown Speaker 16:21
A little earlier, we talked a bit about the Flint water crisis, let's turn the water in, in more general terms. I remember Charles Fishman, who wrote the big thirst several years ago, in an interview said that back then that water is the new gold. And there are so many water related issues we can talk about. Some are hopeful, some are very troubling and disturbing. James will stay with you on that water related initiatives and Michigan, I guess the good, the bad, and the ugly,
Unknown Speaker 16:51
the good is that Lake Michigan is 11 inches lower than it was last year. We you know, we're just coming off of you know, the five wettest years in our history, and it was clearly causing some challenges around the shores and with systems throughout the state. So we were pretty happy with the mile the winner in the drier spring up till now. It's making this much more manageable, but long term, you know, we realize, you know, we got to look at that climate change and how it's impacting the lakes, you know, the fact that our is our water infrastructure ready for kind of more variability, you know, larger storm events, you know, can we handle those storms, that's when we see a lot of the nutrient pollution runoff from farms is occurring during those larger storm events, leading to, you know, the algae blooms that we're seeing in Lake Erie and in some of the name of the lake. So, you know, from, you know, getting ready for resiliency standpoint, there's a lot of investments we need to make in that kind of storm water infrastructure system to make sure that we kind of handle that variability in the future. And, you know, that's on the kind of the larger scale, you know, on the, we've already mentioned a little bit before on the drinking water side, we're not only dealing with kind of rebuilding those aging system, but we're also dealing with kind of these emergent contaminants, things like t FOSS, where the Whitmer administration has kind of led the country and setting, you know, drinking water standards for p FOSS. And we're now kind of applying those to kind of groundwater sources and and making sure that we're kind of protecting the public and looking forward again, and trying to figure out, Okay, what might be that next issue that we got to keep our eye on, and making sure that we're addressing it as early as possible
Unknown Speaker 18:49
solace again, on the good side we've come away is in terms of water quality, I think it's fair to say since the Cuyahoga River ignited back in, I think, in the 70s in the early 70s. But we've talked about Flint water, talked about the problems with P FOSS, what are some of your thoughts on water related and maybe throw in line five while we're talking about this? So earlier, we were talking about, you know,
Unknown Speaker 19:15
it's a good idea to set goals, right, that, you know, part of the the impetus after After Earth Day was, you know, it's important to set goals. Well, one goal that it should keep in mind is when they pass the Clean Water Act, the goal was by 1985, the waters were supposed to be swimmable, fishable and drinkable. Guess what didn't happen. So, so it could be aspirational. But again, it's, you know, we've got a long way to go. It we're not there yet. Obviously, you know, line five is a very interesting thing that I today the Canadian Prime Minister, anyway, he he was he he he basically told the Biden administration that the existence of nine line five is non negotiable. With respect to Canada, Visa V, the United States, so that's going to put a lot of pressure on Michigan, I know that there's an alternative plan to bury it beneath the bedrock. Is that right? I'm something like that. Yeah. As opposed to having it sit on the bottom of a lake, between the two I would much prefer buried beneath the bedrock. The fact that it's sitting on the bottom of the lake is scary to me and anybody who values the lakes, but that's something that it's going to be needed to be addressed. And it's going to be addressed on an international level. Right. And Michigan's, you know, had it had its own issues with the owner and operator of that particular line. With respect to the Kalamazoo river, there's going to be a lot of necessity for for everybody to come forward and really put together a plan that addresses it. I don't know the answer to that question. I would guess that, that it probably in the long run that that line will be buried, it will remain, at least for the short term. And when I say short term for the next 25 years or so, but it's I can't see it sitting on the bottom of that like for very much longer in terms of, you know, water quality, water quality, you know, there's so many new contaminants, emerging contaminants. And contaminants. People aren't even thinking about, oh, there was an article that I read today, I read a lot. They were talking about the effect of all the people taking antidepressants, because of being locked in their homes, and the effect the biology of the lakes, because that stuff's not filtered. When it goes through the treatment system. There's a lot of stuff, there's a filter when it goes to the treatment system. So you got a bunch of fish, sucking down Xanax and what else? And so that's another issue that's going to be coming up in the future. I don't know the answer or how to address it. But there's, it's like it, there's such a mix of chemicals. And people just don't know how how they interact and how they affect them. And us. We're talking about pee fast. Pee fast is a very durable chemical. I know what I think that what's the level of some parts per trillion is the level that Michigan has set for one of the chemicals. Yeah, I would be shocked if we in our blood system right now don't have seven parts per trillion of P fasteners considering how ubiquitous this stuff is. It's an everything. And it's been around since the what earliest late 50s, I think is one, three and developed it. And it's everywhere. And I and I'm dealing with it with a number of clients on a regular basis. That is going to be a huge issue because it's not easily treatable. It moves through the water very quickly. And I don't think we have a full grasp on what the negative effects of that stuff is.
Unknown Speaker 22:39
I just I want to come back to you a bit on line five, I just recently read the plan that the governor released as an alternative to the Enbridge plan. And I've long been opposed to that pipeline in the straits, obviously, for any number of reasons. But it seems to me frankly, that what Enbridge has proposed with that concrete in casement right now may be every bit as viable as what I saw thus far in the governor's plan, which frankly, I thought was in many ways rather vague in terms of specific alternatives on how you get that energy to the people in the Upper Peninsula or Canada as an alternative.
Unknown Speaker 23:19
Let me try to dice it out a little bit of the because of course litigation, I'm only free to speak to so much. But, you know, obviously Eagle has issued permits to Enbridge for the tunnel project. And and so that's kind of one step. And again, the governor is really focused, the governor, like Sal said, wants the pipeline out of the water, that that is the number one risk that is her number one motivating factor on everything. How do we get that pipeline out as quickly as possible? When you kind of get into the second question of saying, Well, if we're to stop using it, what what's the alternative? How else would we get the various energy in the short term, and we think in the up energy Task Force and other things have worked toward this issue of you know that this line could get disrupted at any point, either by the cords, or if the line feeding line five was to be disrupted, or line five was to break like the line going into Kalamazoo. You know, Michigan would have to figure out where it was going to get its energy. So we think it's good. It's good planning in the state to think about what what is Plan B, in case that line does get disrupted? Where would the protein come from, where would the other petroleum products come from, and get to the various kind of end users. So that's the purpose of that plan is to make sure that kind of those other routes are kind of fully explored. If you go back to 2013 2014. You might remember we had a kind of a major's kind of disruption in propane. And it was really kind of factor after factor, we had a very wet fall. So a lot of propane was used for drying crops, we then had a disruption in the frack shader and the pipeline, one of the pipelines feeding land five there, there was also kind of some Braille strike going on at the time. So these factors kind of on top of each other caused a you know, a significant spike in the price of propane, I think it went over $5 a gallon. So the key is, is trying to make sure that kind of these other systems that you might be required to rely on at some point, a robust as possible to avoid any kind of disruption or any price spike that could occur, regardless of whether or not the disruption which occurred due to a kind of a illegal kind of filing or if it was an unplanned kind of disruption in the pipeline infrastructure. And again, then lastly, really importantly, I think, let's address kind of the underlying problem here, which is the addiction of fossil fuels that this country is on and try to reduce that need for fossil fuels and you know, the the climate impacts of those and making sure that we reduce our need for anything kind of long term.
Unknown Speaker 26:15
My guests are James Clift, Deputy Director of the Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes and energy, and solace. MC aloneness, and environmental attorney with the Bloomfield Hills Office of Plunkett Cooney, solace, a question that I suppose is kind of a tough one to answer because we're right in the middle of it. And, James, I'm going to ask you the same one. But everybody's asking about the consequences of COVID. On one thing or another, what are some of the environmental consequences of COVID?
Unknown Speaker 26:44
You know, I charge extra for really hard questions. But anyway, yeah, so COVID affects everything, right. It's affected our daily lives, you know, there, there are pictures of India being able to see that what the Himalayas for the first time and in like, decades, but you know, I've seen a recent maps in China where, you know, the clear skies in a time lapse, they had clear skies, and then all of a sudden, boom, it's, it's back to normal. Right. So, you know, there'll be short term benefits, I mean, in terms of, you know, reduced carbon emissions and things like that. But that's, that's all very, very temporary. I think, though, long term, I think what we'll see is that there will be, and this is tangentially related to environmental issues. But people like today mean, you working from home, I think that'll become more and more common, where instead of going to the office five days a week, we're going to be in the office, maybe twice a week, if you cut travel by half, what is that going to do to air emissions and things like that. Also, if you're not driving, you know, 500 miles a week in your car? Well, maybe the next car you buy will be an Eevee, as opposed to something that you know, with a gas tank and things like that. So I don't think we have any idea. I think, I think maybe five years from now, we'll be able to look back and say, Okay, this was because of this, this was because of this. I can't see the future. I do know that when things like this happen, there are permanent changes. And I think you only realize them when you look back in retrospect. So I think there'll be benefits. I just hope everybody gets through the safely. You know, this is caused a lot of people a lot of pain. And hopefully there is some silver lining in this very, very dark cloud,
Unknown Speaker 28:31
James, is is the hard question. I mean, I think one of the things to think about is really kind of, especially looking back from last four years, you know, we're science fit in to, you know, solving problems. And obviously, this is one where we're forced to rely on science. And in a very kind of fresh science type of way. We are we are we have to make decisions based on best available information. And I think the governor and governors across the state across the country, have made some really kind of tough choices based on kind of the understanding of that at that time. I think we'll hopefully not forget this pandemic quite as quickly so that to the extent that similar things arise in the future, we'll be a little bit more prepared. I think it has highlighted our disinvestment in local public health in a significant way, and why you build up that infrastructure is to get you through times like this. And there had been a significant kind of disinvestment in that area. I think when you look at kind of the impact on the environment saw, I think, has pointed the biggest one, I think that will move forward, which is I think the way we do business in this country has been changed forever. You know, I formerly worked in a building with 1000 other people just Getting back to that setting is kind of hard for you to imagine at the moment, but I do believe that the number of people telecommuting, you know, on a more regular basis is is definitely going to go up. And that that will have kind of carbon impacts, but it will change the way we do business or change. It's changing the way we do video conferencing, you know, kind of daily as these tools kind of get more developed and kind of tailored to specific needs. So it will be interesting to what to watch in that regard. The other part of the science that I think has been fascinating is we've been doing a fair amount of work and in studying and kind of wastewater, and by testing wastewater, can we tell where like the next COVID outbreak is going to be? You know, and I think that's going to have a lot of applications in different areas over time, where we can look at, you know, what are those precursors to these kind of diseased actors happening, and making sure that we're kind of staying in front of them to the extent possible,
Unknown Speaker 31:00
gentlemen said, so this is a conversation that's celebrating the 51st anniversary of birthday, I'm going to ask you to talk a little bit about directional truth in terms of the environment and environmental issues. Sometimes I read Bill McKibben and others who think that maybe we're past the point of no return on certain things, carbon dioxide, and what have you, you two have pointed to a lot of hopeful things coming particularly coming out of previous four years in Washington of an administration, which I guess I won't characterize here, but how about some thoughts for our listeners in terms of directional truth, and, and maybe some positive messages as we look forward, in general terms about the environment and social and economic sustainability? James,
Unknown Speaker 31:52
I think it's interesting. And I've been at this for, you know, getting that 50 years, but you know, 30 Plus, and in a way, you look at kind of the progression of you know, you had the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, where we made very significant progress, you know, in relatively short periods of time, near is much cleaner than it was the water is cleaner than it was over time, we have built a deeper understanding. And now we're dealing with environmental issues that are that are tougher, in a way, when you look at trying to address nonpoint kind of pollution issues with the water, they tend to be a little harder to tackle. We're also looking at more dimensions of every single problem we're looking at, you know, we're looking at, you know, what's the environmental justice impact, you know, what's going to be the labor impact? What's going to be, you know, the the just transition that's going to get us through this, I think that's a very positive thing. We're looking at problems much more holistically. And hopefully, that will lead to more holistic answers to them moving forward. And you know, there's there's kind of outside pressures, climate is a is a good motivator here, I think, you know, people are seeing kind of the erratic weather across the countries of the fires out west. And you're seeing a, I think, a commitment in this area, and really watching the private sector step forward in this area. I mean, Sal mentioned that they kind of run quarter to quarter, but there's a lot of these companies have been around for a while, and they're thinking to themselves, hey, if we don't change our business practice, you know, all of a sudden, we're only going to be around for another decade or two, then we might be kind of history. So they're joining in and trying to solve these problems. And I'm hoping that that will change the dynamic in a way that I think can provide people a little bit of hope that maybe we can address some of these very challenging problems that we have in front of us
Unknown Speaker 33:54
and solace. You have the last word, same question. Directional truth, where are we headed?
Unknown Speaker 34:00
Probably the the thing that I find most helpful is the buy in from corporate America, in environmental, I mean, in that just environmental. I mean, just look what happened in the last week with respect to major companies in Michigan and elsewhere with respect to right to vote, right. These guys have come out all of a sudden, before it was, you know, you read this stuff you everybody's heard the term greenwashing, right, I mean, are you are you just saying this? Because that's what you think your customers and the people you want to work for? Want to hear? Well, I mean, there's a generational change coming, you know, the boomers are exiting stage, right. But the the people that are coming up from behind are different. You know, obviously, they're not all the same. Nobody, there's no generation that moves in lockstep. But it is a different way of thinking for a lot of these people. And and I think a lot of these companies, the ones that will last realize that they're their future, employees and their future customers have certain expectations. They had better meet. And if they don't, they may be the dinosaurs. They'll be state there'll be exiting stage right with with us boomers. I'm technically a boomer I guess. So anyway, that's that's sort of my hopeful thing. I mean, I see I see good things. I mean, and again, I'm not pollyannish. I mean, there's a lot of bad stuff that could happen. And that's coming on down the line. And all we can do is control what we can control and support what we can support. So, but generally speaking, I think the last I think since since January 8, I have seen some positive movement on a variety of levels.
Unknown Speaker 35:35
Well, on that great now, we've been talking a little bit about environmental issues, broadly written with James Clift, Deputy Director of the Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes and energy, and solace. MC aloneness, environmental attorney with the Bloomfield Hills Office of bucket Cooney. It's been a while between conversation, gentlemen, but thank you so much for joining MSU today and be safe, stay well.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai