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A podcast from Bright Wall/Dark Room, engaging with the business of being alive, one movie at a time. Hosted by Chad Perman & Elizabeth Cantwell.
Chad (00:43)
Hello and welcome back to the Bright Wall Dark Room podcast. We are back and we have a new co-host here with us today, Elizabeth Cantwell, who's been with Bright Wall Dark Room since the very early days. And I'm really happy to have her join us on the show. And we are here to talk about Terminator 2. And before we do that, Elizabeth, how you doing?
Elizabeth (01:01)
Yes.
I'm doing pretty good. How are you doing, Chad?
Chad (01:07)
Good, this is our first chat today. We have not recorded this a few times already. No.
Elizabeth (01:10)
I know. We definitely have not had any
previous issues with audio or recording.
Chad (01:18)
None.
It's worked like a dream. Yeah.
Elizabeth (01:22)
No, I'm good.
I mean, it's May. There's this new term that I feel like I've been seeing online a lot called May-Sember. Have you been seeing this too?
Chad (01:31)
I have not. It makes me think of a Todd Haynes movie from a couple of years ago. no, no. Yeah, I'd use it if it was about that.
Elizabeth (01:34)
Okay. No, not that. I mean, great movie.
no, apparently I guess it's maybe it's because I'm a mom. So I get like the mom algorithm, but May Sember is like the number of events that occur towards the end of the school year in terms of like, we got a pool party, we got this team party for this sport. We have, you know, theme week. And now it's also like,
Chad (01:53)
Hello?
Elizabeth (02:01)
Teacher Appreciation Day and don't forget to bring your kid. So I feel like there is it's similar to December and that there's like some kind of holiday event that you have to be responsible for all the time. Yeah.
Chad (02:12)
That's interesting, yeah. I wonder why now though.
mean, that's always been the case.
Elizabeth (02:16)
I know I feel like it's a term that
like momstagrammers have coined or something but momstagrammers? Yeah that's a term. Um yeah.
Chad (02:21)
is that a term as well? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't I'm not in those circles. So I don't know.
I know the teenage stuff from my kids and I know the old band stuff from me, but I do not know mom's stigrammers.
Elizabeth (02:32)
Yeah, well,
I'm feeling the mace ember, but it's almost over. We have like one more week, only two more weeks of school for the kids and we're almost done, so hooray.
Chad (02:48)
and you actually
you actually still get to experience the end of a school year, which I actually do as a parent, but you get to experience as a parent and a teacher. So so is that are you on the home stretch now like or is it like massive work and then the home stretch?
Elizabeth (02:55)
Mm-hmm, I do.
Yeah, I mean, I'm supposed to, my grades were supposed to be done yesterday. Most of them are done. And you know what, the senior grades are done and that's the most important because you got to see whether or not they can graduate. So those are complete. I got those done. I'm on track to finishing, you know, not too late. So yeah, and then it'll be summer.
Chad (03:07)
Yeah, there you go.
not too long ago, you were in Utah for a week with some of those students,
Elizabeth (03:28)
Yes, I went on a school backpacking trip with a bunch of ninth graders, which it was an experience. It was a real experience. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like it only takes one week back and then your brain is back to mush.
Chad (03:33)
That's so cool. My school did not do that. And you're internet free, which, so your brain's a little fresher than mine.
Yeah, it's really like about one hour. But yeah, yeah. But so well, I am so excited that you're here on ongoing basis. And you actually picked the movie for us this time, because we overthought it for way too long and realized we were never gonna record something. So I guess just tell us how we came to be talking about the movie we're talking about today.
Elizabeth (03:49)
Yeah, pretty much, pretty much.
I did.
Well,
I selfishly picked Terminator 2 Judgment Day because I already had tickets to go see it at the Egyptian. It was supposed to be in 70 millimeter, which would have been super cool. Unfortunately, the print was not projectable, But we got to see it in 4K UHD on a big screen, which was great.
Chad (04:17)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth (04:31)
It's a super fun movie. As we were just saying, it is almost summer and I just saw like a headline about this movie too saying that it was the perfect summer movie which I don't know if I necessarily get summer vibes from it but I guess if you think about a summer blockbuster it's definitely...
Chad (04:40)
Yeah.
I think because it was released in July, like July 3rd, I think if I remember from looking it up this morning. That's when I saw it, you know, I saw it in the theater was July 3rd, 91.
Elizabeth (04:57)
Yeah.
Chad (04:57)
but also I saw a headline today as well that just said, mean, for whatever you give to these types of rankings, but one of those online sites that was ranking the best action movies of all time and this one handily won. It beat out Die Hard by several thousand votes, which was the number two. So, well, I know I'm talking to a Die Hard, not just person, but family.
Elizabeth (05:12)
Yeah.
I don't know about that. I gotta be honest.
I love, I love Die Hard.
I mean it's contra- well ranking-
ranking this film I think is controversial because many people also rank it ahead of Terminator itself.
Chad (05:34)
I also do that. Are you gonna get mad at me? I think I think it's because of the order that I saw it. I mean, I saw I saw this one having never seen the first one. And so I think if you see this on a big screen, when you're 13, and then you go watch a VHS copy of the original one from 1984, like the next week, it's kind of apples and oranges there. So I have not seen that first one in probably since 1991 or two. So
Elizabeth (05:35)
Do you, Chad?
Listen, I just, I...
Yeah.
wow, really?
Chad (06:03)
Yeah, because my sense memory is like, yeah, that one was just not quite as good and the second one is where it's, I mean, I also saw the third one and I can't even remember a thing about it and never watched any of them after that. So
Elizabeth (06:14)
well I am a Terminator person over Terminator 2 as we talked about the last time we tried to record this and failed. This was only my second time seeing Terminator 2. On the other hand, I have seen Terminator many times. And I think I'm, I mean, it's a sexier movie and it's...
Chad (06:34)
I don't think
I was looking through that lens at 13.
Elizabeth (06:37)
Well, that was your mistake, Chad. It's a very sexy movie. Michael Bean is fantastic. I just love his, I love him. And I love his chemistry with Linda Hamilton too. It's so palpable. So I feel like, I mean, I know that if you're a 13 year old boy, you're not necessarily looking for a sexy blockbuster, but I think the first movie to me, I'm like more tied to that first movie.
Chad (06:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Elizabeth (07:05)
But this one is also great but pause because you said you saw it at 13 and it like imprinted on you I was just thinking about how important I think the age of 13 is for movies because I saw that it was the 30th anniversary of the first Mission Impossible movie which I saw in a theater at 13 and It would like change changed my life
Chad (07:10)
I did. Yeah.
unit.
But we're the same age, so how's that possible?
Quit making me older.
Yeah, Yeah, and I loved that movie, but it didn't imprint in the other same way though. I obviously on record on this very podcast is being a huge old entire Mission Impossible series fan. So it imprinted in some ways, but yeah.
Elizabeth (07:34)
No, that first Mission Impossible movie... It changed me.
Chad (07:54)
We should talk at some point about what makes that eight. I mean, it's the same with music, though. So it's not I mean, there's been a lot written about that, like that you'll never love music. I forget the phrase exactly, but something like you'll never love any kind of music as much and as hard as you loved the music that love when you're 13. Like you'll love other music before and after, but it'll never be that. So it's got to be a hormone thing or a brain thing. Yeah, I wish there was some psychology person on here who could explain that to us.
Elizabeth (07:57)
Yeah, I don't know.
There's some kind of, yeah, brain chemical. That's real shame.
Anyway, it would be great to... We should like ask, start asking people what was the movie you saw when you were 13 that imprinted on you.
Chad (08:30)
yeah, yeah. Or if the resurrected podcast email, if anyone wants to send something on that, that's fascinating because I think we could probably do a whole series of that and it would never end because someone's always 13 every year. Yes, unfortunately and fortunately, it's only one year.
Elizabeth (08:36)
Hmm.
Unfortunately, there's always someone...
Okay, let's talk about Terminator 2. So I am curious to compare the way that each of us thinks about it, especially because you are somebody that this was like a foundational film for you. And for me, it's like, I appreciate a good action movie. I'd seen it once. I went to see it again. I mean, I do think as we started saying in the beginning, there's a lot of themes in this movie that are relevant to today.
Chad (08:51)
let's get into it.
100%.
Elizabeth (09:15)
and
the the theater that I saw it in did have a good laugh when we saw the Los Angeles 2029 ad chiron come up because we're we're basically there. I mean there's like there's like a chemical plant melting down as I speak right now in LA. I don't know it's either gonna explode or
Chad (09:36)
what, so it's melting, okay.
Elizabeth (09:41)
just leak everywhere slowly and people are evacuating and I don't know. I would not, what I'm saying is I would not be surprised if the playground was annihilated by a nuclear bomb. Soon.
Chad (09:42)
Yeah, no good options.
And
I had forgotten how intense that dream scene of hers is when she I forgot it got that like melting down to the bones. Oh my god. It was bad enough when she was just describing it kind of awfully and poetically. when it when he shows it, it was like, oh my god. Yeah. And, you know, that was a time when, I guess, in theory, the the Cold War was over. And so we were not all scared. But I mean, I had been scared for
Elizabeth (10:01)
Yeah.
when you see it. It is pretty rough.
Chad (10:22)
the years up till 1989 about nuclear war and my parents had grown up scared of it. So that I remembered, I was like, oh, maybe I'm not ready for a rated R movie when I saw that part, but I toughed through it. If Edward Furlong could make it, I could make it. So, yeah. So what is it? I mean, any other kind of relevance to seeing it in a theater in Los Angeles in 2026 as we're
Elizabeth (10:34)
Yep. Yep, exactly.
Chad (10:50)
Having some eerie parallels to what machines are capable of.
Elizabeth (10:54)
I mean, here's the thing though. I don't think we're, we're not anywhere near Skynet. And if we make any AI machines, they're not going to be as interesting as Arnold Schwarzenegger. They're just not. And the thing that movie gets sort of, well, I don't want to say it gets wrong because it wasn't trying to, unfortunately, wasn't trying to predict anything. It didn't get a lot right. But the thing that I think is a big difference is that
Chad (11:06)
No.
Yeah, it got a lot right. mean, yeah.
Elizabeth (11:22)
today what we see is it's the people themselves running these companies who are evil, not the technology, right? Like I'm not gonna, I don't think the technology itself is evil, it's the people, which is very different from the film where the people are
Chad (11:33)
Yeah, Yeah, Joe Morton was such a nice dude.
as soon as he heard like, what
is gonna happen if he creates this, He's like, well, then I have to destroy all of it. Like right now, let's go destroy everything. And then you watch the five guys in charge of this, like, let's invest more money into this. We don't know how it works, but we hope for the best and it could make everything great, maybe for us.
Elizabeth (11:44)
Yeah.
No, can you imagine
Sam Altman being like, yeah, I gotta destroy it all, I guess. No, never, never.
Chad (12:01)
No. Yeah, I guess, yeah, no.
But their solution to him not doing that was like a bunch of people involved with him went off and started their own AI companies to make it safer. And I was like, no, how about just don't do it?
Elizabeth (12:12)
I know.
So the point is this movie is more generous to human nature than reality.
Chad (12:20)
I think,
yeah, James Cameron often is. Yes, for better or for worse. But yeah, I mean, it was hard to miss the point, maybe if machines can learn to value human life, we can too. And it was like, well, that's not how that played out. Nobody's learned anything because it's us programming those machines. So we could go into a very depressing turn off this podcast rabbit hole here though. So back to the movie.
Elizabeth (12:22)
Yes. Yeah.
No, it's...
Definitely not, definitely not.
Back to the
movie. Well, okay. Wait, can I ask a question immediately?
Chad (12:50)
Yes.
Always, you know.
Elizabeth (12:54)
This movie says that she is 29 years old, Sarah Connor. So was she 18 in the first Terminator?
Chad (12:58)
Yeah.
No, here's the really
weird part I noticed this time and I was going to rewind and look again, but forgot to. no, it says on one of those databases where they're pulling up information on our son, John. And it says that he is at Edward Furlong's age. And this doesn't track at all anything from the public enemy shirt he's wearing to the way he's acting. It says he's 10. And so I'm really confused. was like, that, you know, James Cameron?
Elizabeth (13:05)
because she doesn't read as 18.
Chad (13:27)
probably wouldn't make that big of a mistake because it I mean ever refer long was he's literally six months older than me so he was 13 maybe 12 when they're making it in the movie no wait no in the in Terminator 2 yeah you that's a 10 year old
Elizabeth (13:34)
I mean, I buy that he's supposed to be 10 in the movie, but sure. In Terminator 2. In Terminator 2. But that means that...
Yeah, I buy that. I buy that that's a 10. I buy that that is a 10 year old. I spend a lot of time out around younger kids. I believe... I would buy that he's 10. I would buy that he's 10. For the record, I have children and I'm a teacher.
Chad (13:46)
A fourth grader,
Okay.
Okay.
Elizabeth (14:02)
I'm not just
wandering around among seas of young children. No, I buy that he's 10, but that makes her 18 in the first movie. Which it that is that troubles me. That troubles me. That's a troubling thing.
Chad (14:16)
Yeah, I just, don't remember enough about what you look like in the first movie.
okay. Yeah.
Elizabeth (14:23)
because she is she totally reads like a an adult and she...
I don't know it just feels like she's not she's not portrayed as a teenager in my head in the first movie so that feels that it just feels retconned. Also she doesn't like Linda Hamilton doesn't look 29.
Chad (14:31)
Yeah.
No, she's
not, and she's not, I always look at the characters really just to see, know, kind of what's, how old they were when they made it. And my memory tells me from this morning that she was like 35 or so, 34, 35.
Elizabeth (14:54)
So why make her 29? That feels like some weird fetishization
of like, like why does she have to be in her 20s? It's cool if she's like a 30-something hardcore lady.
Chad (15:01)
Yeah.
Well, she didn't realize she was. Yeah. fair, totally fair. didn't even notice or think about her age, but I was bothered by the Edward Furlong being 10. That's OK.
Elizabeth (15:23)
he could be 10.
Chad (15:25)
I don't know, they throw out a lot of different dates. Yeah, I know, but is there a punk set then? Okay.
Elizabeth (15:25)
He looks like a punk.
Yeah, there's totally punks at 10. There's
punks at like eight. We're like, that kid's a punk, you know? That's real.
Chad (15:36)
Yeah, that's fair.
well, and switching tracks completely and feel free to register other complaints that have. the thing that really struck me having not seen this movie in 15 or more years and having watched other movies since then, I've kind of said, I'm not a big action movie guy. I realize I'm not a big now action movie guy because my goodness, was it.
Elizabeth (16:01)
Mmm.
Chad (16:03)
This is what a blockbuster was when I was a kid. know, like you go to the opening, the credit, like it's almost like got this, you know, it's actually got images on the screen. It's basically got this like like the opening of the symphony. I mean, it's this really big operatic kind of thing. it's all it's so it's just so well made. And I know it was at the time, the most expensive movie ever made. So that's I'm sure part of it. But just on the craftsmanship level, not even counting the at the time amazing special effects that just completely blew my mind back then.
Elizabeth (16:06)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Chad (16:33)
it was just, it just like, you went to see a blockbuster and more often than not, you knew you were going to get a really, really entertaining experience. And I just don't feel like it's been that way much of my whole life. so that was kind of sad for that.
Elizabeth (16:49)
Yeah, I talk about this all the time where it feels like bad movies from the 90s now look like the best things you've ever seen, let alone like good movies from the 90s. You know what I mean? Like a good movie from the 90s, you're like, holy shit. Like to quote Frank Sabatka from The Wire season two, we used to make shit in this country. Yeah, it's really, it is a well-made film.
Chad (16:55)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
it's you just feel like you're in good hand. I mean, I love the feeling of like, okay, I can sit back. I don't need to nitpick. I'm in good hands here. And just whatever rhythm or cadence he has either wired into him or figured out somewhere in the 80s. To be able to make movies I haven't watched, you know, after the first Avatar, but
Elizabeth (17:21)
Yes.
Chad (17:33)
just every movie he made just was so good in terms of like the craftsmanship, even if I didn't always think, okay, this wasn't the best movie I've seen, just quality stuff. And he wasn't the only one making it at the time, but yeah, just, I really feel sad for how much it's declined. And I also feel like it might just be the old man yelling at the sky that, know, music and movies used to be better, but it really does feel like in the case of movies, movies used to be a lot better on the whole.
Elizabeth (17:45)
Yeah.
I agree.
There's several things in this movie that I also said like I was I took some notes afterwards not during because don't worry I was in a movie theater I was not gonna open up my phone during the movie but here are two calls I have to contemporary filmmakers if you're out there listening. Number one bring back wet streets. We need wet streets in movies. We used to have so many wet streets. I mean I said this
Chad (18:15)
Okay.
Elizabeth (18:28)
I said this last week too, I watched a film from the 80s and I said, these are beautiful wet streets. Where are the contemporary wet streets? I know we're in a drought, but like let's bring back the wet streets. And then also what happened to action sequences in elevators? Think about how many action sequences
Chad (18:41)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's well, I don't watch as many
action movies anymore, but there's a lack of because in my head, there's always a I mean, die hard.
Elizabeth (18:56)
Right, but I'm saying
like the eighties, nineties, you were always there was something going down in an elevator. It was very exciting. I think the elevator scene in this movie is fantastic. I mean, I know that the trivia from that is that Linda Hamilton lost like 70 percent of her hearing during that scene for life. Yeah, because she was like, yes. No, because I think she fires the gun and it's like the the she deafened herself like permanently.
Chad (19:02)
Yeah, because I was pretty scared of elevators at a certain point in my life.
really? During the elevator? When he's like stabbing down with a...
I had
never heard that one. Well, yeah.
Elizabeth (19:27)
Yeah, no that's definitely true.
But yeah, I think that that's a fun scene and it made me want more scenes in elevators. Elevators and wet streets, let's bring them back. Maybe that's all we need to make movies great again.
Chad (19:43)
There
was, I know obviously in the original Blade Runner there was plenty of that, but was there in the Blade Runner 2040? I feel like there was some rain and atmosphere in that one. Uh oh, did I step into a bad area for you?
Elizabeth (19:50)
I didn't, you know what, I didn't see that one. I can't.
I don't know, I didn't see the most recent Blade Runner, cannot.
Chad (19:58)
Okay, all right. So yeah, in general, Yeah, absolutely.
Elizabeth (20:04)
visually gorgeous film. T2.
Very visually pleasing. I do feel like the biggest knock against it is that it's too well crafted.
Chad (20:17)
Really? Like, I mean, what, what, is that a knock? Like it's to assembly line, you mean?
Elizabeth (20:19)
Yeah, like it's
Like it's too neat. Like the bow
is tied. You got like the, I don't want to, I don't want to jump to the ending necessarily. Maybe we want to walk through chronologically, but, but like the thumbs up at the end. Do we need to have a thumbs up?
Chad (20:40)
That's James Cameron. That's not. Yeah.
Elizabeth (20:42)
right it's a little cheesy
but you it's also like so everything has like a nice like callback which is good i mean again i'm saying this is like a well-made movie but it's not like it doesn't surprise you but that's okay
Chad (20:56)
No, yeah, guess, yeah. I mean, I can't remember what I felt like at the time.
Elizabeth (21:00)
it's not predictable. I guess predictable is the wrong word. But when you see certain things happen, the reaction in your brain is like, yes, that makes sense. Not like, my God, what's happening? You know, like, which reassures you, it reassures you as a viewer, like you said, you feel taken care of and you're like, I can sit back.
Chad (21:14)
Yes.
Yeah, it's not challenging in that way. But
I think it makes up for it in intensity. Like it's really intense, even though it's hitting predictable beats, you know.
Elizabeth (21:24)
That's true.
No, you're right. I was sitting forward in my seat. Even though I knew it would be okay.
Chad (21:33)
Yeah,
just think that somehow the intensity makes me not mind that it's predictable in certain ways. It wasn't, you know, as a 13 year old, wasn't predictable to me. I think as an adult and having consumed bazillions of movies and stories that you're like, okay, yeah, but this, you know, is in a long line of, it's not fan service in any way, but it gives you that same kind of comfort of like, oh, this would be so cool to see it. And then you see it, you know, that happened quite a lot.
Elizabeth (21:59)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Chad (22:01)
Like, you know, I think some filmmakers would have done like two or three of the, because it had cost a ton of money of the metal, liquid metal reforming into him. But you just kind of hit that over and over and over the way that a 13 year old would be like, this is so cool. Show me that again.
Elizabeth (22:10)
Yes.
But like I do think the most famous like if anybody out there has read any criticism about T2 it's probably the most famous piece is probably David Foster Wallace's essay about it. Are you familiar with that one?
Chad (22:27)
You know what? I'm just remembering that that even exists. I'd read it just 20 years ago, probably, Yes, I do remember that now. He liked Lost Highway a lot and he did not like Terminator 2. And I wish he were way more on movies.
Elizabeth (22:33)
Yeah, he famously did not like it.
Yes.
but I do think that like if he had still been alive today, I do think he might have said, you know what? It's a better movie than I thought at the time based on the current landscape. But that that essay that he wrote about Terminator 2, he calls it like FX porn.
and he said it's like you know that's the essay where he says there's like an inverse relationship between the amount spent on the film versus the actual quality of the film. So like the more money you spent making the film the worse the film is. Which there might be an argument
Chad (23:22)
Sometimes, I mean,
I think in this one, it definitely was on the screen, at least it showed up. I mean, at the time there was just not a movie that looked like this and was doing special effects like that. And
Elizabeth (23:27)
Yeah.
Chad (23:32)
it said they had seven weeks to write the script. And then I was like, OK, well, then that wasn't so bad if, you know, you got to hit some predictable beats if you got seven weeks
Elizabeth (23:41)
they also spent, I read the same Wikipedia page, believe it or not. But I know that it went way over time in terms of like yeah, shipping it to the theaters the night before. I was like, that's crazy and kind of cool.
Chad (23:46)
we have the same Wikipedia.
Oh yeah, like delivered the prints the night before. Very cool.
And also reminds you that they used to ship actual prints to theaters and like, I was like, oh, and a projectionist ran that and there's probably the cigarette burns in the top for the real changes, but.
Elizabeth (24:05)
I know.
I know, but
I did appreciate the quality of the filmmaking. I do think maybe James Cameron has like an obsession with unbeatable things like the Titanic and this and yeah he's like interested in like how do you beat an unbeatable thing. I would love to hear your thoughts on the performances.
Chad (24:35)
Well, I mean, it's hard to distance myself from my 13 year old views. mean, I just think that, you know, the Sarah Connor role in Linda Hamilton's performance, I just think that that was just an iconic performance. mean, at the time I was like, this is amazing. This is awesome. You didn't see too many films at the time that had female action stars like that. Obviously, Sigourney Weaver earlier, but yeah, I mean, it was just really iconic.
Elizabeth (24:55)
Yeah.
Chad (25:01)
Like I remembered the exact outfit she was wearing in the mental hospital. You know, I remember her doing the pull-out. I remembered more of her stuff re-watching it than I would have thought. I was wrong about what I misremembered about other things, but I pretty much remembered every beat of her character. So I have to say that's an all-timer performance.
Elizabeth (25:20)
You know what Linda
Hamilton would not or not. You know what Sarah Connor would not have been is a mom's to grammar. No.
Chad (25:27)
No, she
was definitely drug running with the green beret to train her paramilitary son to fight the robot revolution.
Elizabeth (25:36)
I
do think it's interesting to think about the film's take on motherhood because well the film has a definite take on fathers. I think that's, that's pretty clear. Yeah. Wait, what's the exact line again?
Chad (25:45)
They have her say it out loud in a voiceover,
It was something to the effect of all the fathers, this one least wouldn't get drunk and wouldn't beat them, would always be there, would always want to spend time. And then of all the choices, this is the best one.
Elizabeth (25:58)
Right.
But even the robot father has to die. So there's no good fathers.
Chad (26:09)
Well, good fathers
die, that doesn't make them not good.
Elizabeth (26:12)
Well, the only good father is a dead father maybe. Like Joe Morton, Joe Morton's character also seems like a great father. He seemed like a great dad, which also is unrealistic to a tech bro. Like he's seemed way more involved with his family
Chad (26:15)
jeez.
Well, I don't they weren't tech
bros back then. They were mostly wanting to do honest good in the world and or nerdy stuff.
Elizabeth (26:34)
Right. But anyway,
he's a great dad and he has to get killed, which was is my least favorite part of the film. I don't like it. It reminds me a little bit of
Chad (26:41)
Yeah, I didn't like that this time too.
Elizabeth (26:46)
Dick Halloran's death in The Shining in that you have this great black male actor. You have this awesome character who's like a sort of hinge point for the plot. And then you just kill him.
unceremoniously. Like he's just destroyed and it's really sad.
Chad (27:09)
also just, I don't ever want to watch any Joe Morton character back
Elizabeth (27:07)
I felt mad about that.
No, he's great. I wrote Joe Morton exclamation
mark in my notes because he's great. Like we... he... yeah,
Chad (27:21)
He's fantastic.
And then a face I was completely unfamiliar with when I first saw it.
And then really haven't seen him anything since. So he's pretty much just this guy in my life is the, the, the evil terminator, the bad one.
Elizabeth (27:34)
Okay, wait, I'm sorry,
you're saying you don't know Robert Patrick?
Chad (27:37)
I mean, know him, but I haven't seen other things with him. But when I looked him up to see what else he was in, just said he always plays villains and
Elizabeth (27:44)
Are you not an X-Files fan, Chad?
Chad (27:49)
I am an X-Files, appreciator.
Elizabeth (27:51)
I
I feel like my association with Robert Patrick is more through the X-Files than through, yes, than through T2. And he's great, and he and Joe Morton are in an X-Files episode in season eight together, even though they don't have any scenes together in T2. It's still pretty cool. No, I love him in this film. He's great.
Chad (27:57)
Really?
I love him too. And and but he was
literally terrifying. I thought it was at the age when I was over like being scared by movie people. And he just scared the shit out of me because. there's no talking to this guy
Elizabeth (28:27)
know.
I feel like all he has like he runs so scary. He
Chad (28:32)
He runs well. He is a good runner.
Elizabeth (28:34)
has a great run and his face just looks like a little reptile. He's so creepy and I do think that he's very interestingly contrasted with Schwarzenegger. Like I think they did a great job.
Chad (28:40)
Yes.
Elizabeth (28:48)
because they're in this interesting spot, right? Of like, okay, we've got two terminators and we've got a good terminator and a bad terminator and the good terminator has to be the bad terminator from the first movie and how do we make that work? And I think it's like actually super genius the way they do it because the Schwarzenegger Terminator is so much more human, right? In many ways than the T-1000 even in terms of mannerism.
Chad (29:08)
Yes.
Elizabeth (29:12)
Although I would not normally call Arnold Schwarzenegger an extraordinarily human actor. Like they needed to, they contrast it so well.
Chad (29:19)
but when the premise is that
he's not human, then he does come off as remarkably more like a human than a machine. So that's right in his wheelhouse, yeah.
Elizabeth (29:26)
Right, right, exactly.
Chad (29:31)
But just something about the absolute like that he doesn't have one or like, you know, line to the foster parents when he's like, thank you. And no, and he just like, it's also creepy. And so, and if he had the James Cameron that I think of would have given that guy way more lines that were like cheesy and villainous. it's like, whoever decided not to do that, that is the way to go because you cannot reason with this thing. You cannot have a conversation. You can't have the
Elizabeth (29:41)
Yeah.
Chad (29:58)
Denero and Pacino sitting down in heat to talk about the Terminator differences and you know, it's just like no, this is just a killing machine with one mission and he cannot be seemingly killed. And I remember thinking on the theater like, OK,
It just keeps coming back. You can't do anything about it. You just have to figure out a way to not die from it.
Elizabeth (30:15)
Yeah, I mean it is sort of like Jaws in that way or like yeah like okay there's this unkillable animal basically like this this thing this killing machine right?
Chad (30:26)
who does not care for any of your theories on why you shouldn't die?
Elizabeth (30:28)
yeah
who does who's not going to listen to your monologues and just as i think we should bring back wet streets and elevator sequences we also need to bring back a willingness to blow up la pd cop cars on film but the fact that he's a cop i know fatality that's why i said cop cars but the fact that he's a cop i think is also just
Chad (30:44)
with fatalities zero, fatalities were zero.
Elizabeth (30:52)
great and I and nobody would I feel like a studio would kill that.
Chad (30:55)
Oh, absolutely. And not something they could have anticipated, But 1991 is such a fascinating year to have been alive
Elizabeth (31:04)
did you see that because I researched this... the bar... the bar where they shot... you know where Schwarzenegger comes in and he's naked and they're like who's this naked guy and then he... Outside that bar is where the Rodney King beating happened like a week... like a week after they filmed it. And...
Chad (31:15)
Yeah. I'm going to need your shirt and your clothes and your gun.
What? I definitely never do that.
Really?
Elizabeth (31:30)
apparently and I didn't like this
Chad (31:32)
You have multiple sources on that? I've never heard that.
Elizabeth (31:35)
okay we can look it up what I saw you're be looking this up while I talk if you want but what I saw was that the person or like the the same it was like the people were filming that area because there was filming happening which is why people were even hanging out in that area with camcorders filming stuff
Chad (31:41)
Okay, I'm going to.
well, yeah, no,
it's... it does definitely end with something with the Wikipedia page even.
Elizabeth (31:59)
Terminator 2 might be the reason we have Rodney King on tape.
Chad (32:05)
Wow. Huh. that I had no idea.
Elizabeth (32:06)
yeah, bad cops.
Terminator, ACAB, ACAB Terminator. Yeah.
Chad (32:14)
Yeah, huh.
I don't know. I'd never heard that because when I Google it definitely shows up all over the place. that's unless everyone is wrong. It definitely seems like that happened. Wow. Yeah. Wow. No, there's there's even someone who. someone Travis on Twitter one one week ago wrote,
Elizabeth (32:24)
That's crazy, right?
Chad (32:36)
I wrote for Inprint Films about how a fan filmed the making of Terminator 2 and inadvertently caught the Rodney King beating on tape. Travis, yeah, he's number four on the Google search results for Terminator 2 Rodney King.
Elizabeth (32:43)
Travis, where are you? Travis,
Okay, well, hi Travis. We wish you had been a guest today.
But that's a crazy thing.
Chad (32:55)
And you know what his fantastic litter box review was for as verbose as he is, it just said no fate. Yeah. Good job, Travis.
Elizabeth (33:01)
that's great, that is great.
Great job, we love you Travis. No, it does feel so like interesting and textured that that happened and that you have this evil cop and it puts again, puts Joe Morton's death in the film with a weird taste in my mouth. But I also think, so my other thought about the T-1000 is not just ACAB but also
as I sort of teased to you before we recorded, I had this whole thought in my head while I was watching the movie last night about looks maxing and clavicular.
Chad (33:38)
Yes,
I was intrigued to hear more about that than the bullet point.
Elizabeth (33:40)
So
I do feel like the T1000 is a looks maxed T800. Right? Like here's T whatever. T Schwarzenegger. Like here we have this one model that's built and he's a great bodybuilder that you all know. Old school. Old school muscle man. Exactly. And now we're going to up the game.
Chad (33:49)
that tracks. T8000, T8000, yeah, whatever, T whatever.
He's an old school muscle man.
Elizabeth (34:08)
and we're gonna slim him down and we're gonna make his skin super white and super smooth. We're gonna take away any hint of, any hint of like sweat or like bodily function. He's just, right, like he's just gonna be this like marble, like carved, like even, yeah, but like not, not,
Chad (34:22)
or human, normal human emotion.
Definitely chiseled comes to mind,
face chisel, not
body sculpt.
Elizabeth (34:38)
But even his body is like, it's almost like a, like a Ken doll, right? Like you get cut out of like a mold and this is like a technically perfect human form. Right, like here's like a technically, exactly, like a technically perfect male form. But when you see it, feels uncanny.
Chad (34:43)
Yeah.
probably what they were going through, yeah. Or what they're going for, yeah.
Elizabeth (35:00)
and makes you not attracted to it, which is how I feel about looks maxing, right? Where it's like, wait, I inserted some shit into my jaw and like made my cheekbones high. it's so crazy. And you might think like, okay, if I scanned that face and put it into AI, the AI might tell me this is a technically beautiful face, but my response to it as a human is nothing.
Chad (35:12)
they smash it with hammers. My son tells me about all this stuff.
Yes.
Yeah,
Elizabeth (35:29)
right? Like or repulsion which is how... Right! But like
Chad (35:29)
nothing. because it doesn't read as a human.
Elizabeth (35:34)
that's so... So looks maxing is what the T1000 is doing and that's what we're also doing today and it's so messed up and it really feels like... I don't know. That was really hitting me.
Chad (35:44)
Yes.
Yeah, I
wonder what people that are into that think about. They're probably like, this guy's awesome in this movie. Like, this is the new goal. I don't think they watch movies.
Elizabeth (35:55)
right? Like that's... I don't like that. I mean
to be fair to Robert Patrick, he's definitely more attractive than most looks maxers. But but that but him in this role like
Chad (36:09)
But also it was
just naturally what he looked like. They didn't AI his face or do anything. He didn't smash his jaw into that. Yeah.
Elizabeth (36:11)
Right.
No. No, but I'm saying
like the way they shoot him and the way they like, you know, portray him in this film, the way the camera sees him feels like a looks maxed regular Terminator. And it also makes you feel more empathy for Schwarzenegger because you're like, that's a real man because he is like sweaty, bloody. he feels like so much more corporeal. Yeah.
Chad (36:24)
Yeah.
I'm buying it.
Yeah, yeah,
the liquid metal stuff is all like, it's a great way to say like, yeah, I'm a I'm a way higher version of whatever you are. Yeah, I'm not nuts and bolts. I'm liquid metal. Yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth (36:45)
right.
Yeah, it's creepy. And I feel like we're
getting to a place where aesthetically that's what people think they want for themselves, which is upsetting.
Chad (37:00)
No, I know. I do very well remember that not a single person ever talked to said, man, I really just want to look like Robert Patrick in Terminator 2 when that movie came out. I mean, it's fortunate we're still definitely the cool action star then, not that guy. And if anything, he was like, oh, he's just a scrawny little wimp. And I was like, well, that's But he's creepy.
Elizabeth (37:10)
now.
But I think there is something in contemporary cultural aesthetics that is more aligned with that look because when my kid saw it last year or whatever, he thought Robert Patrick was the coolest character he'd ever seen. Yeah. He was like, that guy's so cool. Like the T1000 is so awesome.
Chad (37:35)
Really? Yeah.
I mean, there was a cool aspect to it, I don't think it was like, I think it was the special effects and the liquid met and all that, know, but yeah, that was, cause that was cool.
Elizabeth (37:44)
Well, that is cool.
And also,
I think this has got to be...
Chad (37:51)
This guy definitely showed up in my nightmares.
Elizabeth (37:52)
Well, I was going to say I think it's got to be intentional that all the special effects are with the... Obviously this is intentional, but I'm getting to a point. All the special effects happen with the newer Terminator and the older Terminator is practical. I mean, it's still special effects, but it's practical, right? So you have the CGI stuff with the new one and you have the practical effects with the old one. But the intentional part of that is that it makes you empathize with...
Chad (38:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Elizabeth (38:21)
The old one because it
feels again. It feels more visceral. It feels more corporeal and more real as opposed to this sort of like Yeah CGI guy Mm-hmm
Chad (38:34)
Yeah, and like his bullet wounds like stay and they are, you
know, until until something happens to fix them. But the other guys just reform like on the spot. So. So when you saw it the first time, do you remember like it was that teenage years, college years, adult years?
Elizabeth (38:39)
Yeah.
Yeah, what's fun about that?
I think I saw it,
I mean it had been a while. I think I saw it as an adult.
Chad (38:56)
Pre-crisp.
Elizabeth (38:57)
must have been pre-chris but like post-college maybe somewhere in that time and all i really remembered of the film was the the sequences in the mental hospital that was like my memory of the film which those sequences are so good
Chad (39:13)
They are good, but I was like that to stick with you over like all the special effects and all the other stuff later. Yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth (39:17)
Yeah, that's all I really remembered.
I had like almost no memory of the last hour, which makes me wonder if I fell asleep the first time I watched it.
Chad (39:27)
I mean, the last hour of it really,
as much as it's always tense, it really ratchets up the tension in that last. Like it's pretty much a nonstop, like 50 minute action sequence or maybe an hour even. Once they head over to CIN deck or whatever, whatever that is called, the place where Skynet stuff is, once they head over there, it's just like, okay, we're going action nonstop all the way now. No more visiting random people from the past and looking at fields.
Elizabeth (39:36)
Yeah, I didn't remember.
Yes.
Do you like the choice to not kill people by the term? Like, do you think that's an interesting choice for the film?
Chad (40:00)
I think it's interesting. I mean, I always looked at it as kind of like the how a 13 year old would understand like a, I don't know how say this.
It seems naive within the world of action movies, which would track with what a 13 year old would want. the interesting part is in terms of like, would have liked more of even a tiny line or two about like, why he feels like he just kind of says it as like, isn't this self evident that you shouldn't kill people? Which yes, to some extent, but these people were all trying to meet the other choices that you if you're going to get killed. So it arguably would be in self defense. So
Elizabeth (40:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chad (40:35)
changes the moral equation somewhat. So I don't know, I just thought it was a very simplistic view, but was fascinating to put within a action movie. I mean, I should go on record as saying it is definitely not okay to kill people. It's a personal belief I hold. But yeah, I don't want to come across as like, oh, it's so naive to think you shouldn't kill people. No, I mean, but in an action movie world where, you know, like, body counts famously or just, you know, like, did you know so many people died? No, that's not the point, you know.
Elizabeth (40:48)
Thanks for clarifying, Chad.
Yeah, I mean, it does feel like there probably was some collateral damage there. It seems a little unrealistic to me that he didn't kill anybody. Like someone probably died.
Chad (41:10)
Yeah. I mean, the thing with the when he was
just doing that gun thing across all the cop crowds again, I mean, but if you believe that somehow he's programmed to follow that order and he can have the ability to do it, I don't know. It's one of those. mean, a lot of James Cameron stuff, if you look at it too closely, it doesn't really track or make sense. But I mean, some of those times, I'm pretty sure if you went through and did all the math, I'm sure someone has like some of those timelines. I was like, what?
Elizabeth (41:15)
Yeah, someone would have died.
Chad (41:38)
2027 this and he came back this and then my dad was in. Yeah, some of that. I was like, but you're just too many numbers. I'm like, I'll just go with it.
Elizabeth (41:41)
Well, you can't go. The
time travel stuff. did. I did have the question of like, why doesn't John just vanish?
Chad (41:52)
I saw the one. I didn't really understand what that meant. Wait, how would he vanish?
Elizabeth (41:53)
Meaning like if...
well if it was like Back to the Future. If you're using... if you're using like Back to the Future rules... like when they... when they kill... when they kill the future of Skynet then wouldn't he not exist anymore? Because his dad would never have been sent back.
Chad (41:58)
okay, yeah, so if you're using the other made up.
The official standard Back to the Future rules.
Yeah, and this is the time travel thing in general, like, as always been like, well, there can't be time travel because if there was someone who already have time travel back here, and then my brain breaks and I can't think about it anymore.
Elizabeth (42:25)
Right. I mean, we can't, yeah, we can't
really, there's no real use, I think, in going down that.
Chad (42:34)
But
I have seen Cameron in interviews saying like as they were talking about how to bring back various, because basically the, and I didn't watch any of these, but the terminators, the third, the new third Terminator that came out in 2019 decided to ignore. Yeah. It decided to ignore all of the ones that had happened since T2 and wrap that up. it's like, so.
Elizabeth (42:48)
The one with Christian Bale? Yeah.
Chad (42:59)
In interviews, since they had James Cameron, like, participating in that stuff, they kind of said it. He basically said it more than a few times, some version of, and that's possible in our multiverse. And it's like, I'm not going to parse that. don't, okay. There's a multiverse, there's alternate timelines. Some things are happening. So as best I can tell you either they didn't want to overthink it, or they said, hey, we're in a multiverse with alternate timelines and this can happen somehow. But yes, I, a kid, I very much thought, well, hey, if...
Elizabeth (43:10)
I don't know.
Chad (43:27)
Joe Morton guy's dead, so the movie's over. He can't invent the thing. then I think about the AI arguments now, everyone's saying, well, if we didn't invent it, someone else would have. So I think it was really the chip Yeah. But then once the chip was destroyed, Arnold Schwarzenegger was still there But no, no, no, but he had a chip. OK. Yeah.
Elizabeth (43:29)
Right.
Yeah, you gotta destroy the chip.
but then you had to destroy him cause he still had a chip. He had a chip. But then once you destroy him,
it should be done. But that's.
Chad (43:54)
I think once you know it's all good, think that's what the thumbs up was actually
about. It's like, okay, we got it all. All chips destroyed and Joe Morton has been killed.
Elizabeth (44:04)
I really
didn't like that thumbs up. It really bothered me. But that's okay.
Chad (44:09)
But also
there was a lot of stuff around, like, you know, the chance before she knew Joe Morton's character earlier story at all, and just going there to kill him, when she couldn't pull the trigger, like nothing else about that character, even saying like to her son, like, you don't, you know, don't risk your own life for mine, all this stuff. It's all about like, we do everything humanly possible short of destroying my son to wipe all of this out. And then in that moment, she can't do it. And I was like, that's
Elizabeth (44:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chad (44:35)
That's interesting because I feel like the character they've built would have not had a problem doing that.
Elizabeth (44:39)
I know. I think there's some humanity in her. But she, I mean what's cool about the movie... Yeah, no, that's true.
Chad (44:44)
I know there's humanity in her, but around that particular subject of like this thing has
to be eliminated. And had she done it from far away, just shooting up the house, like she started doing and he would have died and she had no compunction about that. So.
Elizabeth (44:54)
That's true.
Well, I do think what's cool about the movie is she is... There's three Terminators in the movie, right? It's the two Terminators and then it's Sarah Connor is also a Terminator. Like, she's portrayed as a Terminator in many ways. Yes, like she...
Chad (45:06)
yeah.
forged through circumstances, but yes. I don't remember
the original presentation before it, which he's just finding out that someone is killing all these Sarah Connors in the first one. What is she like before any of this comes into her life? Okay. Would you say 18? You said kid.
Elizabeth (45:21)
Mmm.
She's just like a... She's like a sweet kid. She's like... I mean, but again, I did not read her... I didn't read her as... No, I didn't read her as an eight-year-old... an 18-year-old.
But she... No, she's like a sweet young woman who's normal. And wearing a pink sweater and... You know, like... What's interesting about the first film to me also besides that it's sexy and very good in terms of its chemistry is that it is like a...
Chad (45:38)
Okay.
Elizabeth (45:52)
slasher film in many ways and you can see Sarah Connor as a final girl and she even has that cool trajectory of the final girl where it's like she goes from innocent pink sweater wearing to like now I'm gonna you know like on your feet soldier she's like yelling at him at the end and like getting him to you know like she has this like whole she has this whole arc in the first one that's really great and then but then there's you can't really arc her after that the arc is like she's just insane
Chad (46:20)
Yeah, I did think I always love
in movies when they do that, like they let the audience know first, like, no, this person really knows the truth. But then they put them into the world and then they put them into some kind of a mental hospital or says this person's crazy. Because I always just think about how many times you hear about people like this guy thought he was Jesus. I was like, yeah, like if one of those people was right, that's what it would look like. Yeah. Yeah. Not that I think it was, but.
Elizabeth (46:32)
Yeah.
like what if it was Jesus? Yeah
if Jesus did come back we would totally put him in a mental hospital but yeah she she's so hardened. It did bother me a little bit how little she cared about her kids emotions. even the fact that like at the end when you hear her say John, John help me...
Chad (46:46)
yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth (47:03)
that's the tell that it's not her is that she would never call out for her own child, which is like kind of troubling.
Chad (47:07)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. For the
foster mom, was like, didn't know the dog's name, but for her, was like, Yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth (47:14)
Right. It's like she would never call for her child in a moment of pain, which it feels sad,
but maybe that's part of the point. This goes back to what I started talking about a long time ago. Like, what does the film have to say about motherhood?
Chad (47:30)
well, what does it have to say about motherhood? Well, I'm not the mother, but you have such better insight into that. I think.
Elizabeth (47:31)
Well, what do you think it has to say about motherhood?
I mean, I...
it's a weird... I think it's a weird... I think it's weird.
Chad (47:40)
I would agree with that. It was not how my mom was.
Elizabeth (47:41)
Cause it's like.
I mean I know we're
Chad (47:47)
Shout out to mom
who listens to every episode. Hey mom.
Elizabeth (47:49)
She's a killer first and a mom second, whereas the Terminator in the movie is a father first and a killer second and tries not to kill at all. And poor John has no... I feel like he has no role models. know? All the stuff he has to say about his mom is like, yeah, she taught me how to steal and how to be in an underground bunker and like...
He's
like so like it's so sad that he feels so at home when they go into this like underground bunker with all the guns and he's like this is just like my childhood
Chad (48:21)
Yeah.
But
it also brings up that, I mean, again, this is because the first Terminator had a female
Elizabeth (48:29)
they were together, right? He and Linda Hamilton during, yeah, during this. And it was not good.
Chad (48:32)
yeah. Yeah.
During the
second one, I'm not sure if, you know, I don't know the timeline on that. But yeah, there were definitely a couple or if not married at that time, yeah, the second one. Yeah.
Elizabeth (48:38)
I don't know. Yeah, I think the second one. Yeah.
Yeah.
But he does, I mean, this goes back to what you were saying about how she is an iconic character. She is, I think she is unique in how she's shot, where I do think he doesn't necessarily, he doesn't objectify her in the same way, even that Sigourney Weaver is objectified in the alien films. Like we don't have a shot of her in her,
underwear, you know, petting a cat. Like she's only, we only, like the the objectification of the body has to do with how lean and strong she is.
Chad (49:19)
You
Yeah, the
strength was definitely what my memory was seeing it first time. Yeah, because that was not what was going on very much in 1991. know, like even from the music videos of like Guns N' Roses who had the theme song for the opening song, that was a big deal. Like it was on the radio, like I went in advance and I taped and I was like, this is awesome, Guns N' Roses. Like six months later, you know, Nirvana told me that I had to hate Guns N' Roses.
Elizabeth (49:28)
Which is cool. Yeah.
Right, exactly.
Chad (49:52)
And like, it was a real sea change in a lot of different ways. And I think, I don't think he meant to be on that. I think it was just more about he wanted to give Linda Hamilton a cool role and emphasize things he personally liked about her probably, because she seemed to be a pretty strong individual. But yeah, I I think other James Cameron movies, I'm sure there's plenty of objectification.
Elizabeth (49:54)
You
Mm-hmm.
You know who shouldn't have been allowed
to touch computers is James Cameron. Could we have left him like that? Did he not see his own movie? Did he not understand he should have stayed away from computers? He should have stayed making making little models, make make more little models of ships, make some little building models.
Chad (50:34)
Yeah.
Elizabeth (50:36)
he could go back to make some little models, spray some water on the streets.
Chad (50:39)
I don't think little is anywhere in his vocabulary.
No little. Yeah.
Have you seen
this first movie? I've never seen it. It's Piranha 2. It was the one right before Terminator, but I'd never seen that.
Elizabeth (50:51)
No, but didn't he make the models
for Escape from New York?
Chad (50:54)
you would know that. You're the John Carpenter person.
Elizabeth (50:57)
I think
he made the like the New York models Yeah, probably if we look it up and Travis will have an article about it.
Chad (51:01)
I'm going to look it up and then I'm sure Travis got a tweet on it or something.
what did James Cameron do on Escape from New York? Certain matte paintings were rendered by James Cameron, who was the time a special effects artist with Roger Corman's New World Pictures. And he was also one of the directors of photography on the film. Yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth (51:15)
Okay, there you go.
There you go.
cool, make some matte paintings, make some,
why are we, why are we AI-ing everything? I don't love it. But this movie should have been a better thesis for his career.
Chad (51:28)
you
Elizabeth (51:34)
Do you have any sequences that we haven't covered that you want to talk about?
Chad (51:38)
I mean, at the time I thought it was one of the coolest things I'd seen in the movie, but again, it was a limited viewing pool. the big rig truck thing like crashing over the, I remember I think somewhere that they shut down like this whole section of Los Angeles to shoot that, you know, was mostly not digital effects. they were, know, so that thing and the first idea of like, this is a relentless kind of killing machine that cannot be stopped. I thought that was really impressive just technically, cause you know,
Elizabeth (52:03)
Yeah.
Chad (52:06)
Yeah, it looked real and it felt scary and also on a big screen it was just ginormous. So yeah, I like that sequence a lot. I like the little, know, buddies go into the video arcade and at the time that little kid was like best known from being an even littler kid on Different Strokes, which was a show that I watched a lot in the 80s. And it was like, I think Sam was the name of that. was like, Sam's Terminator 2.
Elizabeth (52:22)
You
Right.
Chad (52:32)
You know, it was really, I was into different things back then, but yeah, was just, so I liked those little scenes.
Elizabeth (52:39)
I like that
it feels like an LA movie in the same vein as like To Live and Die in LA, right? Like here's an LA movie that's in parts of LA that you probably don't go to or see in the movies as much, right? Like it's not the Palm Trees LA, it's not the Santa Monica Pier LA, it's like we're in the Burbank channels.
Chad (52:52)
Yeah.
Elizabeth (53:03)
We're in these like
things that are very LA if you live in LA but aren't necessarily iconically LA if you're not here, which is cool, which I like. Yeah.
Chad (53:07)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was definitely an LA film for sure.
And the LA audience you saw it with was along for the ride. They were receptive and played well.
Elizabeth (53:21)
I mean, how does an play well?
Chad (53:22)
yeah, I came away more impressed than I was just because it's 35 years later and it's still very, very good. Some 80s movies, it's not entirely the fault of much besides the synthesizer scores, but they read very clearly as 80s movies. This one.
Elizabeth (53:42)
Well the score of this
movie is also so good.
Chad (53:44)
It's very good. I saying like, but I don't remember at all the score of the first Terminator one, but I'm imagining there was some, some scents in there and stuff, some keyboards, you know, something. So it's not that that music's bad. It's just that that really quickly identifies a movie as the eighties or a saxophone or something like that. Just instruments that are like, no, no more of these in the scores. but yeah, I think if it would have been made a few years ago, it might, it might've had some of those, you know, unfortunate,
Elizabeth (53:54)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Sure. No, it does hold up.
Chad (54:14)
I mean, it's not unfortunate. unfortunate that it timestamps it so much. But this seems like you could play this anytime until the actual rise of the real machines in real life. And it's going to seem relevant.
Elizabeth (54:17)
Mm-hmm.
I mean, this movie
does feel though like the kind of thing where it feels like kind of like a Y2K thing where I can imagine in three years, there's gonna be like a watch party of it and people are gonna be nervous. Like I will be, I will be nervous. I will be, yes, I will think maybe.
Chad (54:35)
Oh, for sure. No, it'll be all over like, Well, but nothing happened
in September of 1997. So that means 2029 would not happen.
Elizabeth (54:52)
Don't get into the time stuff, Chad. I'm gonna be...
Chad (54:53)
I really want to figure out let's
just have another hour on just unraveling the time sequences. Yeah.
Elizabeth (54:58)
No, we can't get into the time sequences. It's not going to work out, but I feel like
I will be nervous that it might happen.
Chad (55:04)
Yeah. But also, again, this is all stuff that happened like either while the film was in pre-production or actually released. it couldn't have been tied to this. But, you 1991 also like that, I remember January of that year was when there was like the, I know, it lasted like a weekend, but there was the first Iraq war in Kuwait and all that kind of stuff.
Elizabeth (55:08)
if we make it three years.
Chad (55:28)
That was just like six months before his movie came out. And then you had the Rodney King stuff. had Nirvana, Nevermind coming out. You had, I didn't know until I looked this one up, but the same month it was released was the same month that they released, or sorry, that they arrested Jeffrey Dahmer. So there's just a lot of like really big stuff going on. And there was a failed coup that prompted Boris Yeltsin's rise in the USSR and kind of went to...
Elizabeth (55:28)
Mm-hmm.
wow.
Yeah.
Chad (55:56)
There's a lot of stuff going on. And this one puts me right back into my room taping that, know, Guns N' Roses song off the radio in my boombox and trying like hell to convince my parents to let me watch a rated R movie in the theater. Which I don't think I actually mentioned on this version of the record, but that's how I first saw it. So I wanted to get that in there because that's a very special memory with my dad.
he's like, yep, I got your mom's permission. We can go. And I think I had to, promise not to have scary dreams afterwards. And if it wasn't for Robert Patrick, that would have succeeded. So
Elizabeth (56:31)
He's so scary. He is so scary in this movie.
Chad (56:32)
I'm
going to now talk about enough. It's going to be tonight. I'm to have another one.
Elizabeth (56:36)
Well, you should just watch some X-Files episodes with him. He really is. Listen, I'm not obviously Mulder is number one, but Doggett who takes over for Mulder is there's some really interesting qualities that he brings to that show. He brings some interesting qualities to his relationship with Gillian Anderson. He's he doesn't try to be Mulder, which is why it kind of works. Right. Because it's like we know that this guy is not Mulder. Like he's.
He can't fill those shoes, so he has to be something totally different. And that show really beats him up too. Like he's one of those characters where it's like anytime there's a storyline centering on him, something terrible is going to happen to him. You know what I mean? Where it's like, he's just going to be, he's trapped in an underground cave with blind monsters who can smell him or whatever. You know, it's like just, he's like destroyed and eaten and then rebirthed from slime. Like it's just terrible stuff happens to him.
And it works and he's a very different character
Chad (57:35)
I think
I could work as exposure therapy on my Robert Patrick trauma to see because I don't know his voice even really outside of this these few lines and I don't know so if I could fill him in as a as a actor and not an actual like demon Terminator maybe my nightmares would go away
Elizabeth (57:41)
You
Yeah,
Okay, wait, speaking of lines, I have to say one more thing, which is because I had only seen this movie once and saw it as an adult, my primary association with all of Arnold Schwarzenegger's dialogue in this film is the viral audio tech support calls that used the dialogue from this movie, which I don't know when those were created, but I must have been in.
Chad (58:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, it was coming.
Yes.
Elizabeth (58:27)
Early high school or?
Chad (58:29)
Yeah, because I was in college, which would have made you in high school
Elizabeth (58:32)
If you know what we're talking about, then you're one of us. But it's that like, my CPU is a neural net processor, a learning computer, you know, but I only, I only know the dialogue, the weird thing, cause I knew those video or it wasn't a video, right? It was like an audio.
Chad (58:46)
Yeah, no, was you do like prank calls with them and stuff. You'd call people up and then you'd hit this. were called sound boards, I think.
Elizabeth (58:49)
Yeah.
Yes, but I only knew that famous... I only knew that
famous like there were like a couple of them with Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Chad (59:00)
the main one was drew heavily from this one and then also kindergarten cop as well.
Elizabeth (59:03)
Exactly. Yes, and kindergarten cop. But that's where I know most of the dialogue from. So when I hear it in the
film, my association is not to the film. It's to like a memed prank phone call. I need a vacation. John. My name is John Connor. What does he say? Yeah. Yeah.
Chad (59:24)
Yeah. Yeah. He just says that my name is John Connor.
Yeah.
Elizabeth (59:31)
So anyway, that's the dialogue. They're so funny.
Chad (59:35)
the internet didn't do as much back then. So this was like high comedy and technology, but it was very funny.
Elizabeth (59:41)
It was...
it worked but I also think it's partly because the dialogue is pretty cheap. Like his dialogue is pretty cheesy which works... it works in context but then when you take it out of context it becomes hilarious.
Chad (59:47)
Yeah, James Cameron usually has that.
Yeah.
And sometimes, mean, my memory of some of the Avatar dialogue, whenever I saw that, there was definitely some cheesiness going on. that's a feature, not a bug with James Cameron.
Elizabeth (1:00:07)
I'll never let go, Jack. I'll never let go. You know what's weird is the end
of Titanic is also a woman allowing a man to die in liquid.
Chad (1:00:18)
she got way more crap for it though.
Elizabeth (1:00:20)
And doesn't... well also, sorry wife knew this was a one-way trip in the abyss. Isn't that all? That's also a man dying in liquid. it's a weird... it's... there's a through line here. Yeah. There's an obsession.
Chad (1:00:27)
I forgot about the abyss, yeah.
Nah. Yeah, James Cameron doesn't like men or fathers.
Of course, that's why art is fascinating. Yeah.
Elizabeth (1:00:45)
Or is it? It's not sorry
wife, it's love you wife, isn't it? It's love you wife knew this was a one-way trip.
Chad (1:00:49)
I haven't seen that
one since the early 90s either, so I have not rewatched it. I liked it. And I like to keep my memories of liking it and if it doesn't hold up, don't.
Elizabeth (1:00:52)
I do like the abyss. I like the, I like the abyss.
So we're not going to do a James Cameron series on the pod.
Chad (1:01:03)
Yes, that's this is we're gonna announce
at the end here that that's what we're doing the old James Cameron thing don't even think Blake check has done James Cameron so.
Elizabeth (1:01:09)
all of James Cameron's filmography.
Well then there's a wide open field for us here, Chad.
Chad (1:01:23)
Well, I think we're about T2'd out so we can hop in our time machines to the present day and wrap up with what kinds of things we're watching these days. So I'm gonna let you go first.
Elizabeth (1:01:35)
I mean, I'm not watching anything in temporary. Although, well, okay, if can I plug, can I plug something? Because I would like to plug my husband, Christopher Cantwell, worked on a show that is out now on AMC plus and shutter called the Terror Devil and Silver. It is season three of the terror. It is streaming right now. You can watch it. It's very good. It's co-written, co-
Chad (1:01:38)
Okay, fair, fair.
of course, and please do!
Elizabeth (1:02:04)
co-created by Victor Laval who wrote the book that it is based on. He's an incredible author. It's a horror show. And yes, and if you don't have AMC Plus or Shudder, it's gonna be on regular cable in the fall. Just in time for spooky season. Spooky season, you can wait for the fall. It'll be on AMC.
Chad (1:02:13)
And there's some Ridley Scott in there. Yes.
It
looks genuinely even the trailer that Chris sent me a few weeks ago. was like, oh my God, don't know if I can handle this. I love Chris, but like Halt and Catch Fire had none of this in it. OK, the trailer looked like, oh man, this is hitting a lot of my scary spots.
Elizabeth (1:02:40)
It's not that scary, Chad. I mean, I have a high level of...
It is, here's the thing. The trailer is well edited and makes it look like a scare a minute. It's, it is a scary show, but it's more like psychological. Yeah, it's more like psychological horror, really. Most of it is character work. you'll hit a couple scares every episode where you're like, that was scary. No. Yeah, but it's like a, it's like a psychological.
Chad (1:02:57)
Okay.
okay, that's definitely the genre of horror I like best.
It's more about like, I thought it was going to this relentless kind of, I mean, it's called the terror. And I was like, OK, uh-oh, uh-oh.
OK.
Elizabeth (1:03:18)
horror that's very character focused. Dan Stevens and Judith Light and the whole cast are incredible. CCH Pounder, Asif Manvi, they're all just like killing
That's my plug. That's the only contemporary thing I'm watching. Although I've heard, I've heard Widows Bay is very good speaking of horror shows and that's like a horror comedy. So I'd love to check out Widows Bay, but I haven't yet. But yes, Matthew, the guy from the Americans, Matthew Reese.
Chad (1:03:43)
And that's with the guy from the Americans, Yeah.
I don't know how say his last name.
Elizabeth (1:03:50)
Okay, but movies wise, I did recently watch a Robert Duvall movie I'd never seen called Tender Mercies. Have you seen Tender Mercies?
Chad (1:04:00)
I
haven't seen it since I was a kid. don't really remember much of anything about it, I really want to see it again. That's on my list for sure.
Elizabeth (1:04:03)
I
I really liked it. That's my like
old school recommendation right now is Tender Mercies. It's like a slow, sweet, actually surprising, yeah, it's like surprisingly optimistic in some ways. The way it starts, you, well the way it starts feels like it's gonna be terrible. Like we turned it on in the opening scene, I was like, Jesus Christ, isn't it? Cause Chris loves Fat City and movies like that.
Chad (1:04:21)
I could use some of that.
yeah,
I remember.
Elizabeth (1:04:33)
And there's a lot
of movies where like, there's a lot of movies he drags me through. That's a harsh term, but like a lot of films that just feel relentlessly sad, where you're like, this is a sad movie about sad people whose lives only get sadder. Like Fat City is like, it starts sad and it gets worse. Or like Midnight Cowboy, it's another one where you're like, this is a movie that only...
Chad (1:04:45)
I do love that about Chris, by the way.
Elizabeth (1:05:03)
gets more sad until it's so sad you're just... you can't even cry because you're like this is the saddest. So I was worried... what I'm saying is I was worried that Tender Mercies was going to be like that because it opens with a scene where I was like Jesus Christ we're going down this this hill but it did not... it actually was not punishingly sad. Like it felt more poignant and...
Chad (1:05:31)
Tender mercy is not punishingly sad
Elizabeth (1:05:34)
It felt like poignant and like beautiful and Robert Duvall is great. I mean he was such a great actor and he was fantastic in it so that's my recommendation. What have you been watching?
Chad (1:05:46)
Very cool.
was just telling you that I I go through these periods every couple of years where there's like a month or two where I just hardly watch anything. or I'm watching like a sports documentary or something. Cause I just can't, when life gets too intense for whatever reason, I'm just like, oh, I can't, I just can't either bring my attention to this or I can't watch it the way I want or whatever. So I started, you know.
Elizabeth (1:05:57)
Sure.
Chad (1:06:08)
watching TV shows or whatever. So a couple of months ago, I watched my first Douglas Cirque movie, which is embarrassing to admit out loud at my age, because I've been wanting to watch Douglas Cirque movies since at least the early 20s. And I still haven't. And I kind of knew what to expect in a
Elizabeth (1:06:21)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (1:06:27)
Instagram, where like the like, I've seen so many beautiful stills from those films, And then I knew, you know, that Pedro Alamudovar loves him. And so I was like, I just kind of had this idea for what it would be. And it was just so much better than what my head had come up with. I just loved it. I got that criterion thing like a day after I saw it. I was like, I got to own this one. And then I took my weird two months off, pretty much except for like our family movie nights. And then this week or earlier, yeah, technically.
I've watched two more, is like an extreme, Cirquean overload that I loved so much. I watched Written on the Wind, which now we'll think of Robert Steck differently for the rest of my life. It was fantastic. just, I loved so much about that movie. And then a complete change of pace and watched Imitation of Life, which I'd always heard was kind of the crown jewel.
Elizabeth (1:07:00)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Chad (1:07:21)
And we're just blown away by how good that was. Just not breaking news to anybody. Probably listening to a Brightwell Darkroom podcast.
Elizabeth (1:07:28)
No, but...
I do feel like Serk is one of those filmmakers where he's widely known and widely talked about but less widely actually seen. Do know what I mean?
Chad (1:07:38)
Yeah. Yeah.
Or they talk about the beauty of the composition and the shots, which is absolutely 100 % true. But even stills, I'd say if you were like me and just saw stills on whatever social media you're on, you're like, that looks really beautiful. You have no idea how beautiful it actually looks until you watch the movies, especially in the criterion versions of them. They're so gorgeous. But if that's all it had going on for it, I'd still probably like it. But it's got this really addictive
Elizabeth (1:07:44)
Yes.
Yeah.
Chad (1:08:07)
melodramatic pull to all of the movies. at the same time, it's like, you know, again, not even the millionth person to make this point, but it's like melodrama is fine art, instead of like soap opera. And it's such a fine line because even critics at the time were saying like, you know, what is this, this tearjerker soapy, whatever. And then you watch it now and you just realize how many different things he was doing. And I'd read more about him than anyone probably that whose movies I'd never seen.
Elizabeth (1:08:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Chad (1:08:36)
And I just feel like we live in a weird time when everything is available. So it's hard. I've got many people on the list of like, I need to watch some of this person's films. And I was like, I by this age, I wouldn't still be doing that. But you just can't possibly keep up with all of them. But it's 100%. I've only seen, guess, three now. Pretty much everyone that I respect taste movie wise, I go in letterbox and look and they've all, you know, years ago, gushed about them. And so I'm joining the gushing. He's an amazing filmmaker.
They're fantastic. And I loved all three of them in different ways, but very, very much.
Elizabeth (1:09:10)
It's so fun to discover like a filmmaker or an actor that you just, and then maybe this is like an ADHD thing, cause I do it too, where it'll be like, well now I need to watch all of this person's stuff.
Chad (1:09:13)
it's the best.
Yeah, and also feel
bad the longer I wait to watch. Now that I know this, if I haven't watched a couple more of them by next time we talk, I'll feel bad about myself in a way that probably is unnecessary. So yeah, it was great. Great to talk about this. Let's do this in one month again. Well, I like to say monthly ish because with with two ADHD brains trying to hit a specific date there might be
Elizabeth (1:09:29)
Yeah, I don't think you need to feel bad. Well, this was fun. Should we do it again in a month?
Monthlyish.
We just will
record like we talked about we'll record a bunch of them and then we'll get them out there. I had fun talking about Terminator 2.
Chad (1:09:51)
Yeah, we'll get it. We'll figure it out. Yeah.
I did too. and I look forward to doing many more of these.