Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

Great communication isn’t about saying more—it’s about making what you say matter.

If we want to communicate more effectively, we need to treat communication less like a habit—and more like a series of intentional choices. In this special feed drop, we’re featuring a conversation from the ⁠Masters of Scale⁠ podcast, where host ⁠Jeff Berman⁠ sits down with Stanford lecturer and ⁠Think Fast, Talk Smart ⁠host Matt Abrahams to explore what it really takes to communicate with intention.

Most of us default to what feels natural—long-winded openings, generic pitches, or focusing on what we want to say. But as Matt explains, effective communication starts with the audience. Get to the point quickly. Focus on what’s relevant. “Tell the time, don’t build the clock.”

From high-stakes presentations to job interviews and everyday interactions, Matt shares practical, science-backed strategies for showing up with clarity and confidence. Communication is something we all do every day—but doing it well, especially when it counts, takes intention. As this conversation makes clear, small shifts in how we prepare, structure, and deliver our message can make all the difference.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (04:16) - Communication as a Skill
  • (04:46) - The Impact of Communication
  • (05:24) - Prevalence of Speaking Anxiety
  • (07:25) - Techniques for Reducing Anxiety
  • (10:00) - Core Principles: Repetition, Reflection, Feedback
  • (11:07) - Communication in Education
  • (12:17) - Opportunities to Improve Communication
  • (14:40) - Presenting & Pitching Ideas
  • (16:55) - Setting Clear Expectations
  • (20:12) - Characteristics of Productive Meetings
  • (25:43) - The Role of Repetition in Leadership
  • (26:33) - Structured Preparation for Interviews
  • (27:59) - The ADD Framework for Responses
  • (29:27) - Asking Insightful Questions
  • (30:47) - Defining Communication Objectives
  • (33:53) - Adapting Messages to Different Formats
  • (35:08) - Building Confidence in New Mediums
  • (36:18) - Recovering from Cognitive Lapses
  • (37:44) - The Pace, Space, Grace Framework
  • (39:39) - Navigating Differing Perspectives
  • (41:31) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Jeff Berman
CEO of WaitWhat | Board at Protect Democracy | Co-Host Masters of Scale
Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: Hi, Matt here.

On Think Fast Talk Smart, we spend a
lot of time helping you communicate

more clearly and confidently,
especially when the stakes are high.

That's why I'm so excited today to share
a conversation I had on Masters of Scale.

I joined host, Jeff Berman, to
talk about what it really takes

to communicate with intention.

Whether you're leading a team or
just trying to think on your feet.

We get into some practical
frameworks I rely on.

Like how to structure your
answers in high pressure moments.

Why most people focus too much on
what they want to say instead of what

their audience needs to hear, and how
to turn communication from a habit

into a deliberate set of choices.

We also talk about everything from
job interviews to big presentations.

It's a wide ranging conversation
about how to show up and communicate

effectively when it counts.

Before we get into it, make sure
to follow Masters of Scale wherever

you listen to your podcasts.

And now enjoy our episode.

You should start pitches and
presentations like an action movie,

there's something there right away.

A lot of people have long preambles.

You need to get yourself into
the audience's perspective.

This is a fundamental tenet.

Jeff Berman: Matt Abrahams knows
what it takes to win over a crowd,

close a deal, and inspire a team.

It's not enough to have a
great product or terrific idea.

You need to be a brilliant
communicator as well.

Matt Abrahams: Neuroscience has
taught us emotion gets into our

brains differently than information.

Gets in faster, stays
longer, motivates behavior.

So do I want people excited or concerned?

Do I want them to have FOMO,
fear of missing out, or be

validated, or just be confident?

Think about that emotion.

Jeff Berman: This is Masters of Scale.

I'm Jeff Berman, your host.

Today on the show communication
expert, Matt Abrahams.

He teaches at Stanford's Business
School and has a brilliant podcast

called Think Fast Talk Smart.

Whether it's preparing for a big
speech, a one-on-one investor pitch, or

anything in between, Matt has science
backed strategies to help you succeed.

We talked about how to overcome anxiety
about public speaking, how to nail a

job interview, and much, much more.

Matt, welcome to Masters of Scale.

Matt Abrahams: I'm
thrilled to be here, Jeff.

Thank you.

Jeff Berman: We're thrilled to have you.

I just wanna start by asking you,
how do you describe what you do?

Matt Abrahams: So fundamentally, I'm
somebody who's really passionate about

communication, and really what I think
I do is I help people to hone and

develop their communication skills.

And a lot of that is really just asking
people to turn habits into choices.

Most people communicate out of habit
and my job, I think, is to expose them

to different opportunities, tools, and
techniques, and then ask them to consider

in their situations they find themselves
in to try a different technique out.

Jeff Berman: What led you to choose to
really specialize in this and, and to

teach others how to be great at this?

Matt Abrahams: The teaching bug, I
think is just inside me inherently.

I've always loved teaching.

I've had lots of opportunities to teach.

After graduate school, I worked in
the corporate world for a while.

I had to pay off some loans, and
I just saw the impact that good

communication could have on somebody's
career and a company's trajectory.

And how bad communication got in the way.

And so when the opportunity presented
itself to do some teaching in this,

actually here at Stanford through their
continuing studies program, I fell in

love with it, and I saw the impact it
had and I really enjoyed learning from

my students and have never turned back.

Jeff Berman: I started my
career as a public defender.

Um, not the obvious place
to start for what I do now.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Jeff Berman: And I'll never forget, we
had one lawyer who, quite experienced,

been doing this for decades, who told us
that they went into the, the restroom and

threw up every single day before court.

Matt Abrahams: Right.

Jeff Berman: And it really just struck
me as like that you've got literally

decades of experience and you're still
showing up with that level of, of nerve.

As, as you work with people on
communication, particularly on public

communication, how common is this, this,
this like nervousness and what do you

help people understand that they can
do to be less nervous, to walk in with

more confidence in, in these rooms?

Matt Abrahams: So anxiety around
communication looms large.

We have some evidence that suggests up
to 85% of people feel anxiety, and quite

frankly, I think the other 15% are lying.

Those of us who study it have found it
in every culture we've studied, we find

it develops around the same time, around
when early kid, when kids become early

teenagers, is when it really becomes
more prominent and stays that way.

So we believe it's part
of the human condition.

There's an evolutionary
explanation for it.

Your relative status in
a group matters a lot.

Not today, and I'm not talking
who drives the fanciest car and

has the most social media likes.

But when we were a species hanging
out in groups of 150 people

during our early evolution, your
relative status meant everything.

And it meant access to resources
like food, reproduction.

And if you did anything that
jeopardized that, it could have

quite a, a significant impact.

So it's wired into us.

Now, that doesn't mean that
we can't learn to manage it.

I spend a lot of my time helping
people learn to manage anxiety.

And you can do it both by focusing
on the symptoms and the sources,

but it is ubiquitous and it is
something we have to work at.

But over time we can manage it.

I don't think we can
ever truly overcome it.

As your example shows, having
anxiety tells us that what we're

doing is important, gives us energy,
helps us focus, but we have to

manage it so it doesn't manage us.

Jeff Berman: Are there truths about
managing anxiety that apply to 90 X

percent of the population, or is it
really specific to the individual?

Matt Abrahams: Everybody is different
in terms of what their triggers

might be or where the sources are,
but there are some things you can do

that seem to work for most people.

I'll give you a few examples.

Deep belly breathing really can help.

It slows down your
autonomic nervous system.

It slows down your breath rate,
it lowers your, your breathing so

that your voice sounds more normal.

So breath work seems
to be really important.

And what's key is the exhalation.

It's not the inhale.

It's the exhale.

So I like to joke, the rule of thumb or
rule of lung, is you want your exhale

to be twice as long as your inhale.

And if you do a two, a few of those
breaths, just two or three, you'll

actually really feel different and better.

The other thing that gets a
lot of people is shakiness.

That's adrenaline.

Adrenaline's role is to move
us from threat to safety.

So if you move with purpose, you can
give that adrenaline a place to go.

So if you're standing up in
front of a room, step towards the

audience with a welcoming gesture.

If you're sitting like this lean
forward, gesture broadly, that

gives the shakiness a place to go.

And for most people, those two things
alone can help many of the symptoms abate.

A lot of people just
get inside themselves.

When they get nervous, they get
very still, and then somehow

magically they expect to be able
to go from silence to brilliance.

But if you watch athletes, actors,
dancers, there's always movement.

There's always warming up that goes on.

My anxiety management plan, and I
encourage all of my students and

everybody that I coach to develop their
own unique plan, I do three things.

First, I take some deep belly breaths.

Second, I do my best to interact with
somebody, to have a conversation.

It gets me focused.

If it's somebody who's part of the
audience, even better, because I realize

these are normal human beings who, who
want to learn something from me rather

than judges who are there to evaluate.

And then I say tongue twisters.

Tongue twisters, I know it sounds silly,
but what it does is it warms up my

voice and you can't say a tongue twister
right, and not be in the present moment.

Nobody ever sees me do this,
but it's a way that I warm up.

In fact, before we started today,
I excused myself and did a few

tongue twisters to get myself ready.

Jeff Berman: Do you have a favorite one?

Matt Abrahams: I do.

But I'll only share it with
you if you do it with me.

Jeff Berman: I'll do it with you.

Sure.

Matt Abrahams: Okay.

Now, the reason I like this one
is it's short, and if you say

it wrong, you say a dirty word.

Jeff Berman: Okay.

Matt Abrahams: All right.

I slid a sheet.

Jeff Berman: I slid a sheet.

Matt Abrahams: A sheet I slid.

Jeff Berman: A sheet I slid.

Matt Abrahams: And on
that slitted sheet I sit.

Jeff Berman: And on that slid sheet I sit.

Matt Abrahams: See where
the naughty word comes up?

Jeff Berman: Right at the end.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, exactly.

Jeff Berman: You wanna slip an H in there.

Matt Abrahams: That's exactly right.

And I'll do that three times
and it gets me present,

focused, and it, it warms me up.

Jeff Berman: Amazing.

Matt Abrahams: I like to say there
are only three ways to get good

at communication, repetition,
reflection, and feedback

Jeff Berman: And repetition.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

You got, you gotta do it a couple times.

So you gotta, nobody ever got good
at speaking by thinking about it.

You have to do it.

That's where Toastmasters, taking
classes, those things really help.

You have to reflect.

Most people are just so glad to
be done with it they move on.

You know, there's that definition
of insanity doing the same

thing over and over again.

Every night before I go to bed, I
spend one minute writing down one thing

that went well in my communication
and one thing that didn't each day.

And on Sunday, I spend five minutes
going back and reflecting and I make a

plan to address the, an issue each week.

I'm not saying I'm a great communicator.

I am certainly a better communicator
because I do that reflection.

And then you have to get feedback.

We are not the best judges
of our communication.

I make my MBA students digitally
record themselves and they watch.

It's painful.

Jeff Berman: It's the worst.

Matt Abrahams: But they learn so much.

I tell everybody, it's
like going to the dentist.

We don't like going, but
we're really glad we've been.

And not only do they
watch it and listen once.

They then watch it without sound,
and then they listen without video.

So they're seeing the different
channels and that actually highlights

more of what they're working on.

Jeff Berman: Given how central
communication is to everything, right?

To relationship building, to presentations
to, why, why don't we spend more time

teaching this, especially starting early?

Like why isn't this more
core to our curricula?

Matt Abrahams: So, I'm heartened,
at least here in the United States,

that we're seeing a bit more of that.

I look at what my kids went
through and I have a young nephew

and what he's going through.

Much different than what
you and I went through.

And we're of the same vintage.

So I think there is a recognition
that communication is important.

Coordination of activity is important.

I think part of it is that we just do it
naturally, and most people, by the age of

one, are communicating in some way, and we
just feel like it's just something we do.

But when you think about the impact
communication can have, it becomes

very clear that it's something
we should study and look at.

You know, when I talk to people who've
graduated from our MBA program, one of

the things they will say is either they're
so thankful they took communication

training, 'cause they see how valuable
it is in their work life, or they

really wish they would've taken more.

So it, it's one of these things
where we take it for granted, but

then when we get exposed to it, we
really see the value that it brings.

Jeff Berman: Yeah, and my Rabbi, Rabbi
Sharon Brous, wrote a book a couple

of years ago called The Amen Effect.

It's a beautiful book, but there's a
little anecdote in the book about going

to the grocery store and going to the
self-checkout and looking up and seeing

the person working at a cash register
and going over, switching, going over and

having that moment of human interaction.

And it completely changing
her day as a consequence.

As you're engaging with college
students, what are you asking them to

do, encouraging them to do in their
daily lives where they can practice

being better communicators and in the
process, perhaps build more community,

build more civility, more connection?

Matt Abrahams: So a few things.

One, I ask them just to observe
others' communication and see

what is it that people are doing.

We, we can be so internal focused
that we don't see that, you know, that

person pauses before they speak and
that gives a little extra space for the

other person to complete their thought.

Or like my mother-in-law would do, she
was a black belt in small talk and she

would, she would just say, tell me more.

And just noticing the subtle little
things that people do to encourage

communication or shut down communication.

So part of it is observation.

The other part is really
helping people listen better.

Most of us are not good listeners,
so really teaching listening

skills, which force people to
be more present and connective.

And then paraphrasing skills.

So it's not enough just to get your
point across, but when you hear

somebody else's point, demonstrate
that you heard that point.

So giving them tools and techniques and
then encouraging them to practice and

then come back and reflect and report out.

And it's amazing where students will
say, I learned so much more from

this person I was getting to know
because I listened and I paraphrased.

And that gave the other person
the confidence to say more.

So it's helping them, scaffolding
them, to a point where that

they can feel more connected and
comfortable doing those things.

Jeff Berman: Still ahead.

More with Matt Abrahams on how
to craft the perfect pitch.

Welcome back to Masters of Scale.

You can find this conversation and much
more on our YouTube channel, and be

sure to check out the link in our show
notes to subscribe to our newsletter.

I wanted to run Matt through a set
of scenarios you might be facing

and see how we can get better at
communicating in each one of them.

We started with pitching
a new startup concept.

When someone's taking an idea out
to market and raising money for the

first time, or trying to persuade
an advisor to come on, what are the

mistakes that you most commonly see
and where are the opportunities to get

better that, that are just the lowest
hanging fruit to coach people up on.

Matt Abrahams: So you and I both know
Guy Kawasaki, so the, the first mistake

people make is they take too long, right?

I love his jet fighter
versus a big Boeing analogy.

It takes a long time for
a big plane to take off.

You need to take off quickly.

So a lot of people gotta
get to the punch first.

I like to tell people you should start
pitches and presentations like an action

movie, there's something there right away.

A lot of people have long preambles.

You need to get yourself into
the audience's perspective.

This is a fundamental tenet.

I, I host a podcast, Think Fast
Talk Smart, all about communication.

The number one bit of advice
across hundreds of guests is

always know your audience.

A lot of people craft a pitch, and
that same pitch they give everywhere.

You have to adjust and adapt.

What's relevant and salient to
the people you're talking to?

You also need to focus on benefits and
salience, not features and functions.

That's, many people get so
immersed in what's going on.

My mother has a saying, I think everybody
should live by, it applies to pitches,

tell the time, don't build the clock.

Many people say much
more than they need to.

Get to the punch more quickly.

And then finally, show don't tell.

Show what this means.

Don't just tell us all the
different features and functions.

What, what does this look like?

If you can demonstrate it, demonstrate it,
but help us in our mind see what it is.

If you can do those things,
you'll engage people more.

And then there's one thing that I,
I'd love to get your opinion on.

When I see pitches, a lot of people put
their bios and their experience upfront.

I'm not a big fan of that.

I, I, I want people to tell me
what the idea is, what the value

is, and then let me know who you
are versus who are you upfront.

I don't know if you have
a, an opinion on that.

Everybody I talk to thinks the,
the bio company slide needs

to go in a different place.

Jeff Berman: Well, there's a fundamental
tension for me in a lot of these

conversations that, that are pitch
conversations, ultimately, because,

yes, jet fighter get to it, be adept.

I, by the way, as a way to get a
meeting, I often say, look, can we

please set 30 minutes or an hour?

But if in 5 or 10 minutes you don't
think this is gonna be valuable for

you, kick me out and I'll, I will
with a smile, shake your hand and give

you 45, 50 minutes back in your day.

Because if in 5 minutes we're not,
we're not in it, it's probably not

gonna happen anyway, most likely.

But the, the tension for me, and, and I
learned this, my first job in the private

sector was at MySpace of all places.

And ultimately I was overseeing
the sales function and I hired an

absolutely incredible sales leader,
a guy named Andy Wheatland, who

I went out on a sales call with.

And we sat down and he didn't pull
up a deck and he didn't start by

saying what we're here to talk about.

He started by asking them
how they were doing and what

was keeping them up at night.

And got them talking about their
problems and 5, 6, 7 minutes in, he's

completely adjusted the conversation
to speak to what their needs are.

And so that tension is often you walk
in the room and you don't know your

audience as well as you should, so
how do you get them in conversation

so you can learn what you're actually
want, want to be speaking to?

Matt Abrahams: I think you ask questions,
you do your homework, you do your cyber

stalking, you're checking out their
LinkedIn profiles, you're, you're looking

at their blog posts and, and Substacks,
but you, you come in inquisitive.

I think curiosity is the best place
to come in in most communications,

especially in pitching situations.

You reflect what you're hearing.

That's where paraphrasing comes in,
and you're watching for nonverbals,

and you're trying to see how are
they responding and reacting.

Nonverbals are not always the
most accurate, but, but paying

attention can be very helpful.

And then start down a path
and test and check and see if,

if this is a value to them.

One of the things you said that I really
wanna emphasize is setting expectations

at the beginning of the meeting.

When you said, hey, if we're
not connecting in 10 minutes.

Most people don't do a good job
of expectation setting leading

up to meetings and events.

I'll give you an example.

I think the single best expectation
setting tool for communication that

we seldom use is the calendar invite.

We all send invites out with URLs,
you can do so much in a calendar

invite to set expectations.

I challenge you the next time
you schedule a meeting, don't put

the word meeting in the title.

It forces you to make it something
that's more active and engaging.

Put your expectations, your goals, maybe
even your, your behaviors that you want

people to have or the tools you intend
to use in the meeting, in the invite.

So people come in, ready to go.

I put in every invite I have for every
meeting I run either a question that

we're gonna start with discussing or
a challenge that I want us to address.

Most people start meetings by
reviewing the previous meeting,

which I think is ludicrous.

Most people don't like going to
meetings, so I'm gonna start this

meeting by reminding you about the
previous meeting you didn't wanna be in.

Let's do something active to get
engaged, and then if we have to

talk about the previous meeting.

So expectation setting is critical.

In the moment determining who your
audience is and what you can do

to help them is critical, but it
involves listening and being silent.

And many of us, because
we're excited, we're nervous.

That's hard for us to do.

Jeff Berman: To your point,
most of us hate meetings.

They're, they're a time suck.

It feels like I only need to be
here for 5 or 10 minutes, but we

set it for half an hour, an hour.

What, especially focusing on an internal
meeting, what makes for a great meeting?

Matt Abrahams: I think a good meeting
is where people feel that value has been

provided to them and that they've had an
opportunity to contribute and be heard.

And that boils down to a lot of
the pre-work that has to be done.

Do you actually need the meeting?

Meetings are often band-aids
for bigger problems.

Uh, when I come in and do some of my
consulting work, one of the first things

I'll do is a communication audit and
I look for the number of meetings that

people have and who, how many people and
who are those people in those meetings?

And it's often a canary in the coal mine
for, for a bigger, more challenging issue.

So crafting purposeful meetings
that have a clear goal.

If there's not a need
for meeting, don't do it.

Meetings don't have to be
30 minutes and 60 minutes.

They can be 17 minutes,
take meetings outside, walk.

Uh, there are lots of evidence
that there are ways to be

more productive in meetings.

So really being value
driven, having expectations.

Maybe even seeding some ideas
with people to contribute.

So I, if I have a big meeting coming up,
I might come to you and I say, I know

you're really passionate about this.

I'd love to make sure you bring up
the points you're concerned with.

Giving people permission to contribute.

So there's a lot of work that goes
into a meeting before it happens.

I actually think facilitation,
meeting, leading meetings, moderating

panels, anytime you're facilitating
others, communicating what you're

doing right now, I think it's
the hardest communication skill.

'Cause you have to manage
so much simultaneously.

Jeff Berman: Why is it so hard?

Matt Abrahams: Well, in this
case, it's just you and me.

But imagine a meeting where
there are multiple opinions.

I've got time, I've got goals.

I've gotta make sure that this
connects to something else.

There's a lot going on that I
have to navigate through and make

people feel psychologically safe,
make sure people are contributing.

I should be paraphrasing and connecting.

There's just a lot going on at
the same time, and that's why many

people find it very difficult.

So a good meeting is a meeting
that's well thought through, and that

people feel like they have presence
and are getting value from it.

Some of the biggest mistakes people
make is they don't plan, they don't

listen, they don't connect the dots
of what they're trying to accomplish

to what has been accomplished,
what needs to be accomplished.

And they, they schedule too many meetings
or spend too much time in the meetings.

So it really, if you are mindful of the
experience and plan it, you can actually

have people excited to come to meetings.

Jeff Berman: Yeah.

You said earlier that repetition
is one of the, the core elements

of effective communication, and
I think for so many leaders, they

get tired of hearing themselves say
the same thing over and over again.

And I'll never forget Jeff Weiner said,
until I start hearing my team say it back

to me, I know I haven't said it enough.

But there is that tension of like,
I, I know you all have heard me

say this 37 times, I kind of feel
like I should acknowledge that,

but I don't wanna acknowledge that.

How do you help leaders get
better at, at this piece of it?

Matt Abrahams: So part
of it is calling it out.

Part of your job as a leader is to repeat.

And the goal is to get alignment.

So repetition is in service of something
and reminding yourself of that.

That said, there are lots
of ways to repeat things

without saying the same thing.

You can give examples, you can use
analogies, you can tell stories.

So find different vehicles to
communicate the same message.

Jeff Berman: I, I want to set up another
scenario where communication can be

complicated and ask for both sides of it.

It's a job interview.

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Jeff Berman: From both the candidate
and from the hiring side, again, what

are the, the most common mistakes
and, and what do you, what are

the most coachable opportunities?

Matt Abrahams: Let me start with just the
methodology I recommend people follow.

When you go into a job interview
prior to getting there, obviously

you should do your work and research
on the organization and the role.

Come up with themes that you
wanna make sure you get across.

Maybe one of my themes is that
I have deep expertise in this.

With each theme you come up with,
come up with support of that theme.

A support might be a story you tell.

Maybe it's a testimonial.

You won an award, or
your boss said something.

Maybe it's some data.

You saved X amount of money
over this amount of time.

So you have different types
of support for your themes.

So when I'm in the interview and
you ask me a question, I think to

myself, that's a great opportunity
for me to pull in this theme.

And because I have the support already
there, I'm just assembling my answer.

You know, if you go to a fancy restaurant,
they don't make every meal from scratch.

They have things prepared
and they assemble it quickly.

If you can do that, that means
you are more present and connected

in the interview, 'cause I don't
have to sit there and figure

out everything from scratch.

I'm a huge fan of structure,
structures and frameworks.

They are great ways to structure answers.

One of my favorite is what
I call ADD for adding value.

Answer the question, give a detailed
example, describe the relevance.

So if you ask me a
question, I'll answer it.

I'll give you an example and
I'll describe the relevance.

In so doing, I have just made it
easier for you, the interviewer, to

see the value I can bring to see that.

I can think quickly on my feet, and I
give you an example that's concrete.

For giggles, imagine you're
interviewing me to be a teacher

of strategic communication at
Stanford's Business School, so you're

interviewing me for the job I have.

Because at least that way I
might have some qualifications.

What might be a reasonable
question you ask?

Jeff Berman: Why should we not hire you?

Matt Abrahams: Why should we not hire you?

Jeff Berman: Why should we not hire you?

Matt Abrahams: One of the things
that I have a tendency to do is to

over index on applied information and
some of our students would benefit

from more theoretical approaches.

For example, when I teach crisis
management, I'm teaching very

specific messaging techniques,
not the theories as much.

So if you are looking for somebody
who is theoretically oriented, I'm

not that candidate, but if you want
your students leaving knowing how to

communicate and having practiced it,
then I'm the person you should hire.

Answer, detailed example,
describe the relevance.

So I didn't know the question you
were gonna ask, but I knew exactly

how I was gonna answer it, and
that makes life easier for me.

Jeff Berman: What's the question I should
have asked you in that mock job interview?

Matt Abrahams: That's the question.

Jeff Berman: That's, that's it.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

So I, I always recommend that
somebody have a question.

'Cause they always say, do
you have any questions for me?

And a lot of people say, no,
no, I, and there's no way,

you have lots of questions.

So I will always ask that, what's
the question I should have asked?

Or I say, what do you wish you would've
known when you were interviewing?

Or, what's the question
you would've asked?

And in my own life, when I've done that,
I have received such great insight.

And when I've been on the receiving end
of that, as a hiring manager, it showed

me that this is somebody who really wants
to understand the inner workings and

the details, which made a mark on me.

As an interviewer, my job is to figure
out, not just if you're the best

candidate, but are you a good fit.

So I am giving you space to share
information with me, and I'm asking

follow-up questions because that lets
me really see your depth of thought.

And uh, uh, the last bonus or, or bit
of advice I'll give is leverage AI.

LLMs can be really helpful,
not to help you create answers.

That's not what I'm looking for.

But to help you get questions to
practice, all athletes do a lot of drills.

All musicians do a lot of scales.

We can do the same thing.

Go to your favorite LLM,
say, I am interviewing for

this role in this company.

Generate five questions for
me as those questions come

up, practice answering them.

That's how you get better at it.

Jeff Berman: We've been focused
more on small group communication.

I want to go back to bigger stages.

Um, you're standing in front of a room
of hundreds or even thousands of people.

If it is the National Association of
Realtors, you probably have a pretty

good idea of your audience and you
can, you can speak to your audience,

but often leaders are speaking before
much more diverse groups of folks.

What do people not get right in those
rooms and, and what's coachable there?

Matt Abrahams: There are
several things I could say.

First and foremost, have a clear goal.

Understand what you're trying to do.

To me, a goal has three parts,
information, emotion, and action.

What information do you wanna get across
and based on what you know about your

audience, what's the best way to do that?

What's the feeling?

A lot of us don't think about feeling.

We, we just wanna get
through the information.

But we've known for millennia,
thousands of years that emotion matters.

Neuroscience has taught us
emotion gets into our brains

differently than information.

Gets in faster, stays
longer, motivates behavior.

So do I want people excited or concerned?

Do I want them to have FOMO, fear
of missing out, or be validated

or, or just be confident.

Think about that emotion
and then is there an action?

Most communication, especially
for leaders up in front of

big groups, there's an action.

What is it?

Is it clear and is it measurable?

You know, I coach a lot of entrepreneurs
and during their pitches they'll say

things like, I want your support.

What does that mean?

Do you want to check?

Do you want a social
media like, be specific.

So having a clear goal helps you focus.

That's the number one place I
think people make a mistake.

They aren't clear, or the person who
wrote their presentation was clear,

but they weren't clear because a lot of
leaders don't write their own content.

And that, that can be a problem.

You need to, if you're not writing your
own content, you need to be very closely

aligned with the people who are, and
they need to understand your process.

The other thing that people
do is they don't practice.

Think about a standup comedian.

How many times does a standup
comedian work on their routine?

I coach some of the most senior
leaders here in this valley,

and they'll say, I got it.

I say, oh, how much you practice?

I, I read the slides last night.

You know, you, you need to live it.

You need to speak it out.

I don't know about you, but in
my mind, I'm amazingly eloquent.

When I open up my mouth,
I'm not always as lucky.

So getting that practice in and
practice in the environment, where

you move around the stage, you feel
the lights, you hear the sound of

your voice through the speakers.

Jeff Berman: One of the paradoxes of
the modern moment is it has never been

easier to reach people because there
are more platforms and there are open

platforms, but it's never been more
difficult to build real audience because

it's so crowded, and AI's only making
that more, more complicated by the day.

Whatever you may think of his politics,
it has been said of Zohran Mamdani

that he's just as good in a 32nd social
media hit as he is in a 3 minute cable

news appearance as he is in a 30 minute
speech as he's in a 3 hour podcast.

He's kind of mastered each
of those, those media.

When you're working with leaders
who now have to appear in these many

different formats on these wildly
different platforms, how do you

help them get good across the board?

Matt Abrahams: I think you take a step
back and you really think about what do

you stand for, what's important for you?

What are your key values?

And you start from there.

And, you know, so essentially what
I'm saying is you have to be authentic

and you have to be true to yourself.

You then have to think about how
the message plays best on the

different channels and platforms.

And you might have a, a really good
stump speech or a really good position

statement or pitch at 5 minutes.

How can I, it's not just about
truncating it to fit the 32nd TikTok.

It's what's the core essence of that,
or a piece of that core essence, and

how can I say that in the best way?

So helping people understand that
it's not just message, but channel,

all coming from an authentic place.

And then it boils down to practice.

You have to practice for
the different modalities.

People think I can, you
know, if I can do a 30 minute

presentation, I can do it in 5.

Not at all.

It's very different.

And so you have to get that experience
and you have to practice it.

And you're right.

If you don't, people question.

It feels disingenuous.

And I think younger people have
an advantage over those of us who

are older in that they're used
to managing personas in different

modalities, much more so than I am.

I, you know, I barely can do it in front
of somebody, let alone on technology.

Jeff Berman: So, what are you saying
to, to leaders who, who do need to be

on platforms where it is just wildly
uncomfortable for them to get there?

Matt Abrahams: Whenever I ask anybody to
do something they're uncomfortable with, I

ask them to think about another time they
did something they were uncomfortable,

and what, what helped them do that?

And it could be everything from the
first road race somebody ran to, you

know, the first time they had to let
somebody go during a reduction in force.

Helping people understand
that one, you can do it.

And then helping scaffold the
different pieces, you know, so if

I'm trying and I'm, I am learning
how to be on TikTok myself, which

is wildly disturbing to my kids.

They do not want me there.

But the point is that you need to
understand what, what's expected on

that channel, what works, and then
figure out how you can connect to it.

You, you have your own freedom in, in
on-ramps to these different channels

and helping, I help people try to figure
out where's the best place to start?

Is it that you're really good
at being funny or you're really

good at asking questions?

So let's lean into that when you move to
a different platform or a different way.

So let's find a strength that
will play well in that platform.

But first you have to be encouraged.

Jeff Berman: Matt, you, you
referenced, um, uh, where was I going?

I just fully lost my train of thought.

Matt Abrahams: It's quite all right.

Jeff Berman: Forgive me.

Matt Abrahams: No worries.

Jeff Berman: Surreal.

Let me go in a different direction.

Matt Abrahams: We can
talk about blanking out.

Jeff Berman: Let's talk about blanking
out 'cause I just blanked out.

I just, I had exactly where I
wanted to go with my next question.

I lost it.

What do we do in those moments?

Matt Abrahams: When you blank out, a
great thing to do is to do what you do

when you lose your phone or your keys.

Go back to go forward.

Repeat yourself.

Say what you just said before, most
of us can remember that, and that

often gives us enough to get on track.

If not find a way in conversation
to distract your audience, so I

teach the same class very often.

I can't remember, did I
say this in this class?

Did I say that yesterday?

So I'll, I'll lose my train of thought.

So what I'll do is I'll just pause and
if you ever hear me say this, it means

I've forgotten what I need to say.

I will say, let's pause and
think about how what we've just

discussed impacts your life.

And what my students do
is they think about that.

And that gives me that
fraction of a second.

So, can you leverage a question?

Can you get somebody responding or doing
something to buy that time for yourself?

I call it a back pocket question.

You should have something
you can pull out.

So when you blank out, repeat yourself.

If that doesn't get you back on
track, ask some other peripheral

question that you've thought about.

Just like you asked me earlier.

You could simply say, what's
something I should be asking you?

And that's something I can respond
to and that gives you time to think.

Jeff Berman: Yeah.

What have we not talked about that
we should have talked about here?

Matt Abrahams: I alluded to
listening a little bit earlier,

but listening really is critical
in all communication and listening

means we actually have to slow down.

I have a colleague who, who jokingly
says, I hope it's jokingly, that

listening's that thing I have
to do before I get to speak.

So when I teach listening,
I teach a few things.

Uh, I learned this from
a colleague of mine.

His name is Collins Dobbs.

Pace, space, grace.

Jeff Berman: Pace, space, grace.

Matt Abrahams: It's a way to
ace your listening, so you

have to slow things down.

Listening is one of the only
skills where we actually have to

slow down to take advantage of it.

So you have to slow your pace down.

You have to give yourself space.

You know, for me, as I get older,
everything's loud and I can't hear.

I have to move to a space that
I can, but more importantly,

I have to give mental space.

I have to stop all the chatter
and focus, and then grace.

Grace to give yourself permission,
not just to listen to the words,

but how those words are said,
where those words are said.

That can give you a lot of insight.

I'll tell you a quick story.

I came out of a meeting with a
colleague and my colleague said,

how do you think the meeting went?

And I immediately heard feedback, so
I gave all the constructive feedback

'cause the meeting didn't go well.

What he really wanted was not feedback.

He wanted support in that moment.

I didn't recognize, he came out the
back door, not the front door with me.

He was talking quietly, he was looking
down, he was sending me all these

signals that I was not listening to.

So pace, space, grace
helps you listen better.

And then the single best tool,
I've said this, I've mentioned

this before, paraphrasing.

When you listen to paraphrase,
you have to listen more deeply.

You listen for the bottom
line, not the top line.

So if we give ourselves a little
pace, space grace, and we listen to

paraphrase, we learn to listen better.

Now I have to be very candid with you.

My wife thinks I'm a fraud
when I talk about listening.

'Cause she thinks I, I
need a lot of practice.

But we are all working on it.

Jeff Berman: We are all working on it.

And you're still married,
so you know, you've done,

Matt Abrahams: As far as I know.

Jeff Berman: You've done
something right here.

You referenced earlier that often
if someone's not agreeing with

a speaker, that speaker doesn't
feel like they've been heard.

We're in a moment in this country where
we really struggle to hear each other

and to make each other feel heard.

And it feels like there is so much
more that divides us than unites us.

I, I reject that perspective.

Matt Abrahams: I agree.

And the research suggests that too.

Jeff Berman: It feels like to, to
build back, we have to start locally.

We have to start one-on-one,
and then in small groups, in

communities, what have you.

As you observe this, what do you wish we
were doing differently so that we could

connect more and, and find those, those
things that unite us more than divide us.

Matt Abrahams: Stepping back
and looking at and listening

to different perspectives.

I really applaud my wife.

She does this better than I do.

She will look at multiple news sources
from different parts of the political

spectrum for a particular topic.

And that gives her perspective that
I don't necessarily always have.

So taking that step back and appreciating
that there are different perspectives

and hearing those different perspectives.

You know, it's, it's trite and
cliché to say we're all living in

our own little bubbles, but it's
true and we need to peer out and see.

And leading within inquiry
and curiosity, I think are the

ways to really get that going.

When you come in guns blazing, here's
my position, this is what's going

to happen, that, that's off-putting,
that puts somebody in the defensive.

But if I come in with curiosity,
help me understand that.

What perspective do you hold that
invites at least conversation.

And again, understanding that we
don't always have to agree and we can

appreciate somebody else's perspective.

That lays the groundwork for the
kinds of conversations you're

hoping for, and I'm hoping for.

Jeff Berman: I love that.

What a great place to wrap.

Thank you for being with us.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you so much.

I enjoyed the conversation.

Jeff Berman: Thanks again to my
friend Matt Abrahams for joining us.

His brilliant podcast is Think
Fast Talk Smart, and his book

is Think Faster, Talk Smarter.

I'm Jeff Berman.

Thank you for listening.

Matt Abrahams: Well, thanks for listening
to my conversation on Masters of Scale.

I hope you learn practical tips that can
help you communicate more effectively.

If you'd like to hear more conversations
like this with leaders breaking

down how they build, lead and scale,
you can follow Masters of Scale

wherever you get your podcasts.