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Welcome to The Career Sandwich Podcast. Each week, we’ll dive into a real-life topics that will empower you to build the career you crave, including ideas on how to better know yourself, build your path, and stay organized along the way.
Hi, Dennis.
Dennis:Hi, Shelby.
Shelby:Hi. Nice to see you.
Dennis:So glad.
Shelby:I'm so excited to kick off our careers unwrapped podcast series. This is definitely a big step for us, something that we've talked about for a long time at CareerSandwich. Yeah. But felt like, you know, it was finally time to start having these conversations, you know, which you and I have what feels like all day every day. But Yes.
Shelby:You know, clicking record and starting to bring our audience along the journey too because I think there's so much that we see and hear about that so many other people could benefit from. And so I'm really excited to kind of take these big, gnarly topics that people experience in their professional lives and start to break them down and have real interesting no BS conversations about this kind of stuff. So Yeah. I'm really excited.
Dennis:I totally agree with you. It's I think it's a long time coming. I think it's gonna be a great medium and vehicle to really just reach the masses related to our mission and just Yeah. So much to talk about, and sometimes it's just easier to to get it out in this format. So it's a good time.
Shelby:Totally. Well, I always like to assume that folks know little to nothing about career sandwich given we are still very early in our, career sandwich adventure. So I feel like we should probably start with intros. Do a quick Sure. Yeah.
Shelby:Hello? Do you wanna kick us
Dennis:off? I will. Yes. So I'm, I'm Dennis. So I'm one of the founders, cofounders of First Sandwich.
Dennis:So, really, you know, the journey of getting to this point, we'll go into later. But for me, there's a lot of reasons that this is becoming one of the most exciting things I've ever worked on in my career, and I think it comes back to the 2 things I love the most, which is people, design, and bringing those things together in a way that super intentional. My back to my background is designed that I I've I did end up in the people space, which is a whole another podcast we could talk about. Like, how do you get to this interesting, like, pivot in your career? But, I love trying the best that I can.
Dennis:Me and me and my life partner and work partner, Julie, who is also part of this career sandwich journey, try to design our life with intention. And, you know, I think that's something I hope everybody can get to at some point in their life or in their career is a place where at some point they can make a choice for themselves. And, you know, I'm not naive to the fact that that doesn't happen from day 1 and but somewhere in your your life, I hope you can get there. So I hope, you know, by, sharing the things that I've learned as a designer, using this as a medium to, you know, bring those practices to someone's career, I think, is really interesting to me. So, we have a lot of work to do, but, so far, this has been quite the quite the journey and really the most rewarding the most rewarding work I've done to date, I think.
Dennis:So
Shelby:I love that. I love that. I feel similarly. Obviously, a bit of a different background than you. I went to school for marketing, always thought that that's the the space that I wanted to play and kind of happened upon the people space and HR and with a real focus on culture and realized quickly that my love for storytelling, which I had always known growing up, that's what drew me to marketing in the first place.
Shelby:It it is very true for me, but similar to you, my heart and soul lies with people. There's nothing that brings me more joy than really learning someone and really, like, digging in and understanding who they are and what they're about and to get to build this company, where people really are at the center and do it in a way that feels authentic to you. And to me, it it's incredibly rewarding and definitely, gives me a lot of hope that, know, it's it's sort of meta. Right? Like, we're we're doing the thing that we are also hoping to help people do for themselves.
Shelby:And I
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:I love when that comes together that way. It's just like it starts to really fuel itself. And
Dennis:Yeah. I absolutely every every day that I think about, you know, when we get in the platform, we start thinking about things we wanna provide our community, and it's just like, gosh. You know, share everything we know, and then just like, oh, I kinda wanna use that. Right? It's like, how do we dog food?
Dennis:And, like, I think there's so much uniqueness to that. It's like we are in the career ourselves, you know, building the thing that we're hoping guides us too. So Mhmm. It's a it's a fun place to be in when you can actually use and use the thing you're creating for other people too. So
Shelby:Totally. Totally. Yeah. And I think it's I and I think the timing is also really interesting. Right?
Shelby:I mean, when we we get asked all the time, you know, what prompted you guys to start career sandwich? What's the genesis of this? And there's a lot of things, I think, but, you know, timing they they always say timing is is a huge part of the equation. And I think in our case, it definitely rings true. You know, we're in May of 2024 right now, and the last 4 or 5 years have been a little wild for obvious reasons.
Shelby:Yeah. And looking back on the whole, you know, the world has changed so much. Right? But especially professional world. And a lot of those changes were happening well before the pandemic.
Shelby:A lot of those changes were sort of bubbling right under the surface. But 2020 hit and the pandemic paired with just a lot of change in the industry. Like, there's just things evolve and things and and the rate of change is faster than it's ever been. So it's just we're operating and living in a world that didn't exist 5 years ago. But Mhmm.
Shelby:I remember at the beginning of our conversations when we were kind of kicking the can around what could we do in this space, having that realization that, man, the world has changed so much, and yet career support has not changed at all to to match the times. And it felt like there was just this big gaping hole. And Every time we say this to folks, I feel like at least people just have this they drop their shoulders, and they're just really like it. Yes. I feel like I'm doing all the right things.
Shelby:I feel like I'm I'm checking all the boxes. I I'm I'm falling the holes and playing by
Dennis:Yeah. Yeah.
Shelby:And I'm doing it right. Why do I then why do I feel like I'm not getting anywhere? And and if I do feel like I'm getting somewhere, a lot of times, it's not actually where I even wanna be.
Dennis:Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah. The what that yeah.
Dennis:I mean, I I think that's the unique part of all this is, like, we're living in a time of change. And when there's change like this, the ground moves, and, like, we have the opportunity to kinda, like, come in and kinda fill these gaps. And I think this is a huge one. You know? There's so much, you know, innovation in, like, how companies are building things with AI that helps people get, you know, their resumes written and all these all these things that are kinda contributing, I think, in some cases to no the noise in the system for people who are out there applying for jobs.
Dennis:We have the economy that's always you know, that's not in our control. I guess you could say there's things that are in our control, things that aren't when it comes to our careers. And, you know, I think right now, there's just a lot of uncertainty and change everywhere you look, and people are like, what was working, like you said, was I'm doing the things I used to do. Why isn't it working? Mhmm.
Dennis:And then I think, like you said, so many people that I talk to, when I tell them about, like, they're like, oh, what are you doing these days? I'm like, working on career sandwich. Like, tell me about that. And then I start getting into it, and they look at me and they go, yeah. I don't know how I got here.
Dennis:I'm just doing the thing that I was doing. You know? And I think that's, like, really interesting. It's like we just let it go to chance and Mhmm. Sometimes we get lucky and it works out, but
Shelby:Mhmm.
Dennis:Oftentimes, it doesn't. So Mhmm. I think the change, like you said, is real right now, and, you know, hopefully, we can pray create some, you know, guardrails and, like, tools and resources and things to help people get get pointed in a direction that they they need to in a very different way. So
Shelby:Yeah. Well, it I mean, that's a perfect bridge, like, to I I think it's important that we spend a little bit of time today talking about kind of what is our mission at CareerSandwich.
Dennis:You know?
Shelby:And and what you just described is exactly the the genesis and the tee up to our mission. Right? We we spent a good amount of time, you know, locked in a room in the co hatch in Dublin trying to figure out, like, what is what what are the words to articulate what it is we're trying to do here. And I think when we landed on our mission, which is empower people to build the career and life that they crave. There was something that really clicked.
Shelby:There's there's a sense of ownership there, you know, empower people to build, not just Mhmm. Kind of take the lazy river of a career and
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:And just end up where the current takes you. It's like, no. Like, where think intentionally. Where do you wanna be, and how can we help you get there? And I really like that we baked the word crave in there because Mhmm.
Shelby:I think we've all had that feeling. I mean, we've all I mean, it's a little punny, which is always fun. You know?
Dennis:We have a lot of those. Yeah.
Shelby:Yeah. Yeah. But but I think, you know, the sensation of craving transcends just food, obviously. You know?
Dennis:There's all
Shelby:sorts of things that we crave in our lives, but that sort of innate hunger for something, like, oh, I just I want that so bad.
Dennis:I'm just
Shelby:I'm craving it.
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:We I we're on the same page, which is why I love working with you and Julie as well that that's that is an attainable North Star
Dennis:for folks. Yeah.
Shelby:Like, we've we've had the privilege of having those moments in our own career, and I know plenty of other people have had it as well. And rather than just hoping that that moment appears in your professional life
Dennis:Mhmm.
Shelby:You know, really breaking down for folks, how can you put yourself in that position where you can build the career that you crave
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:For yourself. You really own it. And when when you make that an attainable path for someone and help really show them the way, they just light up. They love it. Yeah.
Shelby:And, like, that's what we're doing here.
Dennis:Yeah. No. I I I know when we hit on that word because we were trying to describe it, and I we went through a bunch of and then it was like it's like, yes. Because we were all sitting there. We're like, you can feel that.
Dennis:You know what that feels like. And and I think, you know, it whether you whether it's work life integration and you're looking for a place where, like, a a company is per like, fits that perfectly. Right? Like, whatever you need, like, you're gonna crave someone's gonna crave something that there's a thing that they're gonna need in their career that, you know, drives them. Like, whether they need flexibility because things going on their personal life.
Dennis:So, like, that's the piece that they're craving is flex whatever that is. I think when we hit it, like you said, you you know it. And and to be able to to at least in my career, to sit back and be be able to sit here and go, yeah, I can think of every every interaction, every milestone that brought me to this moment right here on this podcast with you Mhmm. You know, is a very it's empowering. And and what makes you feel like you can go out there and and do whatever not whatever you want to do, but, like, go out and, like, build your like, truly, like you said, build your career, like, and and get what you deserve.
Dennis:And whether that's confidence so you can negotiate better, whether that's, like, getting clear on, like, you know what? Maybe I took this this job or I got this degree, and it really wasn't what I wanted it to do. You know? Like, there's so many reasons people, like, end up in these positions, and none of them are no one's to blame in it, really. It's just kind of how we've been taught.
Dennis:You know? And depending on when you were growing up, it was either a, you went to school and you stayed here until you got your promotion and da da da da, and you just kinda moved through the ranks, but it's all different now. You know? And I think, you know, we have a job to to truly help people figure this out because it's it goes beyond just individuals. It's kind of like the world needs this right now, I think, in a lot of ways too.
Dennis:So
Shelby:Yeah. I think the the question the question I get most often after kind of explaining this idea to folks, you know, we wanna help you build the career that you crave. The number one question I get is, well, how are you gonna do that?
Dennis:It's it's
Shelby:a valid question. It's a valid Yeah.
Dennis:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Shelby:But I think we're I think we're really onto something with our kind of 3 point simple framework that we it's sort of the centerpiece of how we talk about the proactivity of building your own career. Like, what are the 3 essential steps in doing that? And I think we've I think we've really I do say so myself. I think we've got it kinda figured out.
Dennis:Yeah. Yeah. I mean and and that's before you jump into that, Shelby, and I think it's important for people to know that, like, you know, we we didn't land here. We didn't throw a dart. Right?
Dennis:Like, this has been I don't wanna know how I mean, how many hours have you spent, I mean, talking with people, coaching people, and do doing this work to get to this place where, like, this 3 part framework is is really built into true, like, interactions and and and true moments of, like, us coming back to the drawing board and being like, you know what? Maybe maybe this is where you know, this this is what this represents. And, when we hit on this, I was like, finally. You know? We finally can put some rail guardrails around and and framing around the things we're trying to say because it is it is very, like, if yeah.
Dennis:Build a career. You'll okay. How? Oh, totally. You know?
Dennis:Like so, I mean, I I think it's important for people to know that, like, when we started off on this journey, it was one thing. To where we are today, it's one thing. But the thing that has been re that has maintained consistency is our ability to go out there, stay accessible to as many people as we can Mhmm. Which is a big part of our mission is to not just reserve this stuff for people who can afford big career coaching contracts, but truly, like, as many people as we can, Mhmm. And to learn with them and build this and adapt this as we continue to learn more in this time of change because that's you know, I don't think anybody has it figured out, but I think we are getting closer to understanding, okay, what do people need right now in this market?
Dennis:So Mhmm.
Shelby:Yeah. No. Totally. Well, in that spirit, I mean, should we talk about those 3 pillars?
Dennis:Absolutely. I I feel like this maybe well, other than the conversations we've had with this is probably the first time we're going very broad with this. Like, this to me feels like we're launching kind of this new this new stuff that we've been working on for a long time, so I'm just trying to get it out there in this format.
Shelby:Yeah. I mean, it's definitely been in our practice. You know, this is the framework that I use with every client that I chat with, and, of course, we're, like, baking it into the platform itself and building resources and things around it. But I do think that, you know, the more that we talk about it and the more that we normalize these 3 pillars and make this part of people's ongoing personal and professional development, the better.
Dennis:Yep. But Totally.
Shelby:So, like, high level, I mean, we can, like, click into each of these because I think they are different and they're but together is how where the magic happens. How do people build the career in life they crave? I mean, we've basically boiled it down to 3 things. Like, first, you know, folks really have to know themselves. 2nd, they have to know how to build their path.
Shelby:And 3rd, they have to stay organized. So I'll kind of, like, give a high level of each of these three things. Chime in if I'm, like, missing anything or you think there's anything else, like, the audience should know. But know yourself kinda speaks for itself. Right?
Shelby:You have to know what matters most to you, what motivates you, what kind of environment do you thrive in, what sort of thing. What do you love? What do you hate? What do you never wanna do again? What what are you interested in?
Shelby:All of that stuff requires a level of intentionality and self reflection that many of us, not on purpose, but just sort of have have stopped doing, especially as we kind of get further along in our careers, our lives get really busy, and the easiest thing to ignore is ourselves often enough. And Yeah. We are being really intentional with all things in career sandwich of trying to pull people back to that state of really knowing themselves and knowing what matters most to them and what makes them them because
Dennis:Mhmm.
Shelby:We believe that that's the foundation of everything. If you don't know yourself, then you will never be able to know whether or not a career is right for you or if you're on the right path or the wrong path because you have nothing to, like, gut check against. Right? You have to have that internal compass really dialed in and really calibrated.
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:So that's a huge part of what we do in our coaching calls. Obviously, it's a big part of what we're baking into the product. And I sort of it's it's very intentionally the first of the 3 because you can't do anything else unless you know yourself first.
Dennis:Yeah. And we hear this even from, like, a very tactical, conversations. Like, when we talk with our recruiter friends and they'll even say, like, I don't know how people can even go into an interview or negotiate a salary without knowing them. So, like, knowing like, so, I mean, this is, like, baked into, like, all of that. You know?
Dennis:I mean, that just the simplicity of understanding what's gonna work, what's not gonna work for you drives those other conversations you have. Right? Like, it's gone at like, just working remotely, I want flexi isn't going to it's not gonna work. And there's a lot more to to why you need to do that. Right?
Dennis:And we can get into this whole storytelling piece of this too. But I think there's a lot to just getting to, like you said, back to that place of, like, what what do I need? What don't I need? Prioritizing that so that you can guide the path. Right?
Dennis:So Mhmm. Yeah.
Shelby:Totally. Yeah. I mean, it's funny that you started to move down that storytelling path. That's where my mind was going to. That's like a whole separate conversation.
Dennis:Yeah. For sure. Yeah. But Next episode. Next episode.
Dennis:Yeah. Totally. Yeah. What what
Shelby:it means to have a personal career story? But
Dennis:Yep.
Shelby:So second is, of course, build your path. Again, chose those words with intentionality. I think build implies proactivity, similar to our mission statements. You know, this is very much something where we want people to be in the driver's seat. You know, your career is not going to happen to you.
Shelby:You need to create it for yourself. So Mhmm. Chose that word on purpose. And then I really like path versus, like, perspective that no one job should ever be the goal. Right?
Shelby:Your career is a pendulum and a journey. And so building your path is something that feels right to us for so many reasons.
Dennis:Mhmm.
Shelby:And also just really embodies sort of fundamental beliefs and philosophies that we have in terms of Mhmm. What does a really great career for someone look like.
Dennis:Yeah. Yeah. And I and I think that's the the one that I feel a lot of people try to get answered for them a lot of times. Like, inside a company, you hear this one a lot. It's like, well, what what's next for me here?
Dennis:It's like, what's your Mhmm. What's my path? Or, you know, I just joined a startup, for example, or I've been in this role for a long time. Like, what I mean, sure. Some companies have some structure to help guide you in, but, like, generally speaking, like, that's that comes back to that empowerment.
Dennis:Like, it's up to you to really drive that drive that with your manager so they can help tee you up and put you in those positions. So, you know, this is, you know, totally a a space that I think is where folks kinda get tripped up, and they're just waiting for somebody to, like, move them to that next place in their in their journey. And and I think, you know, that linear aspect, like, you know, I think a lot of people can sort of appreciate, okay. Yeah. Careers aren't as linear.
Dennis:But I but I think there's there is some work that needs to be done around consistency and, like, you know, you mentioned your your journey to being in the people. Mine's in the I mean, it's but I don't feel like I've I've pivoted into a place I should you know, it's like there's a Mhmm. A very clear, like, flow, I guess, to Yeah. To where I am. You know?
Dennis:So I can still build on my my experiences and and my skill sets, but not I don't know how to it's not like I'm there's not huge pivots. Right? They're evolutions. It's almost like an evolution. You know?
Dennis:Mhmm. Let's say that a pivot isn't what somebody may need, but Yeah. I think when you have that path, it makes it a little easier for you to go, oh, well, yeah, this feels a little bit off of what I was doing. But if I look forward another 5 years, like, it comes back around, and you can kinda see the tie. So
Shelby:Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean, you know me, I the I think there's always a tie. It's phrase I use all the time when I'm coaching folks is, like, make your story make sense to people.
Shelby:And so many people, like, the huge majority of people that I talk to, don't have never thought about the some of their experiences that way. And so oftentimes, I say, like, well, I've done I did x, y, and z. I did a, b, and c, and I did 123. And I just sort of that's sort of how they talk about it. They just factually say, this is what I've done.
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:And in reality, when when you're when we talk about this idea of building your path, a fundamental part of that is talking about the path that you've been on previously. And to your point, like, pulling that invisible string through all of your experiences in a way that tells a compelling story and and gives not only yourself, but anyone that you're talking to this confidence that, like, you got here on purpose. Right? You didn't you didn't stumble your way here. You didn't
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:Just, like, trip and be like, oh, here I am. And
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:You know, maybe some of us maybe some of us do feel like we kinda stumbled into this career that we have, and and that's okay. But there there is there is always a thread, and it's like I feel like a detective when I'm chatting with folks trying to I will find the thread for you. Yeah. When we find it, it's just such a magical moment because it gives people such a stronger sense of the blueprint for their future path.
Dennis:Like, oh,
Shelby:that's my if that's my storyline from the first part of my career, I can continue that on or change it or whatever, but you have something to ground yourself in.
Dennis:So Yeah. I'm gonna ask you I'm gonna ask you because I I'm with you. I love I love these these threads and, like, you know, when you when you debrief, you know, some of these store like, you know, obviously, you keep things very, very anonymous as you should, and you respect people's private privacy. But when I hear things like, we figured out this thread, and then you explain a thread, and I'm just gosh. So it's it's such a cool moment.
Dennis:But but I I'm curious, like, how many of these threads kinda draw back even beyond before they started their career?
Shelby:Oh, so many. Yeah.
Dennis:So many. Yeah. Yeah. And it's because, I mean, it's that that who you are thing. Right?
Dennis:It's that goes back to bullet 1. Like, you lose that over time. Right? Like, we just start to go from who we are to who our business per like, who our, you know, work personas are, and we have to take all that jargon out. And, like, you talk a lot about, like, weekend language and, like, all these things that make your story your story.
Dennis:And and and I think the more that we can lean on that, that it's a heck of a lot more interesting than you like you said, than the bullet points. You know?
Shelby:Yeah. Well yeah. And and and I think, you know, if you if you look at those those first two, so know yourself, like, who you really are, and then build your path is, like, part a key ingredient of that build your path is knowing that story and being able to talk about that so that you can continue marching in whatever direction you want to going forward. Those things, like, those that's not just a what you've done. It's a it's a who you are.
Shelby:And Yeah. We've, to your point, I think lost that. Right? I think in so many people's professional lives, they by no fault of anybody, like, that's not at all the point of what I'm trying to say here, but they've kind of been reduced to the bullet points on their resume. And Yeah.
Shelby:Yeah. That's that's a crummy feeling. Yeah. You know? Like, I know people who have sent, not exaggerating, 100 of job applications in.
Shelby:100. And Mhmm. Maybe have landed an interview or 2. Right? And Yeah.
Shelby:You know, yeah, people are tough and, like, yeah, they understand that it's, like, just a wild market out there, but I don't believe for a second that that doesn't slowly, like, start to influence someone internal, like, their self talk. Like, that will I'm sure.
Dennis:I'm sure.
Shelby:That'll that'll wear on you. And even the most resilient people on planet Earth, like, we're not meant to be reduced to a peep piece of paper. Now
Dennis:Mhmm.
Shelby:Is this me saying, like, throw away your resume and, like, never like, no. Like
Dennis:Yeah. Yeah.
Shelby:You know, it serves a purpose. But
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:I think what really excites me about what we're doing is we're really trying to get back to the, like, not just what you've done, but, like, who you really are and helping you have that confidence to bring that to the table because that's what people remember, and that's what people want on their team. They want people who are confident in who they are and and and have And and that's how you break through, honestly. Right? I I couldn't wrap off 4 bullet points on my own resume, let alone someone else's, but I can tell you my story, and I could tell you your story because that's that's what we love as humans is Yeah. We we love stories.
Dennis:It's so it's such a big like I think people are starting to feel it because I was actually chatting with somebody a few weeks back who who literally said I'm working with a company who's, like, helping me build my resume. And, like, literally, it's like, I feel I feel like I'm building this for some sort of algorithm. Mhmm. And I think, like, that was, like, you could see, like, how I know I have to do this thing. I have to play this part.
Dennis:Right? But in reality, like, that's not who I am. You know? And and it was almost like my eyes just kinda was like, wow. Like, we've got to this place where and then I think about, you know, my eyes kinda got big when you were explaining this.
Dennis:Like, I think when you said, oh, we're not saying throw away the resume. It's like, well, no. And I think about branding and personal branding, and this is another, you know, to get too far away from what we're talking about, but, you know, I think if we could get to a place where you view these moments as touch points in your brand and your story and, like, you know, it makes the resume super valid. Yes. You probably need to have a bulleted, you know, like, a piece there, kind of cliff notes of who you are and what you do.
Dennis:But, you know, to say this is the only time you're gonna get my entire story is just not it's not fair because that's not how it's not how much of anything works. Right? Like, great brands are built up over time. You know? Stories in general are things that kinda come over time.
Dennis:So I I I'm it's definitely I I'm, again, I'm very excited about kinda pushing through and break trying to break through this norm and or even just providing other vehicles and ways for people to do this. Right? Like
Shelby:Mhmm.
Dennis:Yeah. We're not here to change the way, you know, certain things have been done. I mean, it's bigger than who we are. I mean but I think there's definitely ways we can influence and help people get discovered, you know, differently than going through the emotional drain of applying for a 100 jobs at a time. Totally.
Dennis:Like, I couldn't imagine that. Like
Shelby:Yeah.
Dennis:That would be really tough. Yeah. Especially if you're getting ghosted and all the stuff we hear.
Shelby:Gosh. Some of the some of the stories that I've heard from folks is it yeah. It's just like Yeah. It's incredibly frustrating, and everyone the amount of graciousness that people still bring despite being ghosted, despite the Mhmm. Total, I'll just say it, like, crap that a lot of companies put people through these days is mind blowing to me.
Shelby:Like, the fact that people continue to, like, show up and and they keep going. And Yeah. It's remarkable. And it it's a huge testament to, you know, that inner strength that everyone has. And
Dennis:Mhmm. It
Shelby:also is it makes me really excited because it's like, okay. You still have, like, the energy. Like, there's it's it it goes back to the crave. Right? They they're still Yeah.
Shelby:Yeah. Leaving when you when you have that hunger for something that you want to get somewhere, you don't give up. And I see the huge majority of people, you know, operating that way. But Mhmm. Yeah.
Shelby:I think just, like, getting really strategic and helping make sure that they're spending their energy in the best ways so that they are getting the most sort of bang for their
Dennis:I agree. Yeah. It'd be interesting in the future to, you know, unpack kind of like, because we've been on both sides of the table, right, in some of this stuff. So, like, you know, it's I mean, I'm both very not like, naturally empathetic individuals. So it's like we, you know, I you know, it's hard to blame one side or the other in the world we're in.
Dennis:Right? Because it's very it's very weird. It's very complex. It's very I don't I don't know. Like, there's a lot going on right now in the market that I think or the job market that is causing some of this, but at the same time, there are things that companies could be doing better, and there's things that individuals could be doing better.
Dennis:You know, one of the things that we hear a lot is, you know, the more you just keep spamming these jobs, like, the you're adding more noise into the system, going back to getting super clear. So I think there's a that's probably a whole another topic we should just talk about more. But, you know, I I do think, you know, like you said, it's all gonna come back to who are you, you know, getting very clear, putting your putting the detective hat on and figuring out, like, k. What do I need to do to get to here? You know?
Dennis:And starting to build that path around it. So Yeah.
Shelby:Well, I think that's a perfect segue to, like, that last pillar. You know? So p zeros, of course, know yourself, you know, build the the, skills to build your path. But then how do you make sure that this doesn't that those two things don't just become a flash in the pan? It's it's that staying organized and really staying focused on what it is where it is you're trying to go, what's really important to you, and not to your point just throwing spaghetti at a wall and applying for anything and everything because that doesn't serve you.
Shelby:Right? And a lot of people, I think, out of they're just they're they really just want to break through in some way, shape, or form. And so a lot of folks, when I ask them, like, why are you doing that? Like, you don't even you don't wanna do that role. Like, you know and every single time, it comes back to this just, like, sense of exacerbation.
Shelby:Just being they're just like, I'm just trying to break through. I just need something. And so I don't blame them at all. Like, I totally get it. But, you know, when we think about the stay organized part of the career sandwich ecosystem, it's definitely that checks and balance.
Shelby:Like, are you investing your time and your energy into the things that actually help you get to know yourself better and continue to know yourself and then proactively build your path in your way. So it's this sort of trifecta of 3 things that they all have to be done sort of in tandem.
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:And just leaning into one of the three parts of this framework isn't gonna get someone where they wanna be. It really is. Like, it it is a 3 legged stool.
Dennis:Yeah. Yeah. There's so there's so much, that we even talk about. You know? It seems so, like, counterintuitive, but in a market, you know, like, we're in.
Dennis:But, like, you know, just literally, like, part of the work we do is to help solve slow somebody down. Mhmm. You know? Because, like you know? Yeah.
Dennis:There's a lot of things that happen in that moment that you may be let go out of an organization, and there's, like, there's a reality that certain things need to be met. Like, the foundation needs to be set. You need insurance. You need these things. But there's also, you know, that panic applying as I like to think about it.
Dennis:Like, that like, you know, I think that's just a natural reflex for somebody who's high performing to, like, say, I'm gonna go and solve this and I'm just gonna do it. But eventually, you know, I don't wanna get it, but but there's a definition of insanity. Right? There's a lot of things to kind of look at and say, like, maybe I just need to slow down a little bit. Mhmm.
Dennis:Regroup, get organized, you know, really kind of go through this, the the the we have, like, the 14 day refresh. There's a lot of things we do to help you do this. But
Shelby:Yeah.
Dennis:And really start to work towards, you know, what does you know, how do I get back to that place? Right? And you'll get there. You know? And I think you're gonna get there sooner than if you just started throwing darts at the wall.
Dennis:And, you know, I think it's, it's I think when I think of craving, again, someone's you could be craving just getting back to work, and that's okay. Like, get it. You know? Like, that's reality. And Yeah.
Dennis:You know? But knowing who your network is and putting some time into that, getting that all cleaned up and, like, really investing in those pieces. You know? Don't be afraid to tell like, truly have conversations with your closest network and say, like, hey. This just happened to me.
Dennis:Like But to have that conversation about, hey. This just happened to me, they're gonna say, well, how can I help? And if you can't get clear on, like, what you need from them, they're they're they're not able to help you. Right? So I think you have to slow down.
Dennis:You have to just sort of, like, re revisit it all. And depending, I think, how long you've been out of you know, you've been working, and then you're in this position, like, I haven't interviewed in 8 years or whatever it is. Like, you may have to take a little bit more time. Right? Because truly dusting off the resume, figuring out your story.
Dennis:So all that stuff is, you know, very, very important, I think, to the the success of getting to that Crave state in a job. Right? Totally.
Shelby:And I think that's one of the most exciting parts for me about this platform and us playing in this podcast space is that, you know, because we're having so many conversations with people who are in it right now, whether they're, you know, trying to figure out if they wanna stay at their company, but they're feeling a little stalled out or maybe they were let go or maybe they, you know, mutually separated. Whatever it may be. There's 10,000,000 different circumstances in which someone could be trying to figure out, like, where do I go from here? What do I wanna do? Yep.
Shelby:But because we're having so many of those conversations, like, I'm really, really excited about this idea of taking all those themes and, like, being able to talk about them here. So even if you were, you know, if you're say that for you know, I haven't interviewed in 8 years. Like right? Like, you I don't want people to feel alone in those moments, and we can talk about what it's actually like out there because we have the real anecdotes and the real, you know, we have the the I don't wanna call it data, but I it is data. But Yeah.
Shelby:Yeah.
Dennis:Inputs. It's the inputs. Right?
Shelby:It's the it's
Dennis:the the things that we can kinda draw on, and and and it's it's generally pretty fresh stuff. Yeah. And it's, like, in the moment.
Shelby:People are actually living and experiencing. Like, these are real humans living in the real world in May of 2024. This isn't like, you know, some philosophical whatever or just, like, pontificating about what things should or shouldn't be. It's like, oh, this is real life. This is what it's actually like out right in the world right now.
Shelby:And being able to have conversations about that feels really refreshing.
Dennis:Yeah. And I I know when we talked about, you know, the like, our whole brand and just this podcast in general, that was one of the things we talked about is, you know, how do we show up? What is our tone? And I think, you know, there's a whole slew of thing, you know, and topics and people talking about work life balance. And there's a whole lot of things in this space that sometimes I think could be seen as just people, like, you know, screaming to the to the masses and you know?
Dennis:Mhmm. One thing I think folks should just I should I think hopefully, folks get out of this is that we are trying to build this into actionable things. Right? Not just here's what we believe, but here's what we believe plus an example of it, plus what you can apply. And then also know that we talk we have people on both sides of this conversation.
Dennis:Right? Like, we are talking every day with companies who do wanna do it right, right, who do wanna support folks, who aren't trying to just, you know, view individuals as numbers. Right? So, I mean, we get to see it from both sides of the of the table, I guess. And it's it's really interesting to have some really interest innovative conversations with some of our accounts.
Dennis:I mean, I know you and I are are really excited about 1 in particularly that, like, I'm continuingly just jazzed to know that, like, what can come from that because I think it is the next the next big shift, I think, to how companies should be thinking about careers. So, you know, so, yeah, I'm with you. I think, you know, we have it's a great medium. I think we're gonna go into a lot of different topics, and I I hope we do. Right?
Dennis:Like, I hope we go deep into some I hope we can bring on guests that wanna go deep on topics with us. So I mean Yeah. And, you know, but it's, there's a lot there's so much to be learned still, and there's so much moving parts and pieces. So everything's real time. So
Shelby:Totally. Yeah. Well, I think that's, like, a really good a good thing for us to actually get really clear on. You know, I think I agree completely with all of those hopes for this podcast and, like, everything that you're excited about as well. But in the spirit of kind of living up to our own values, like, I think it's probably important to name just a few things about what what is this podcast really gonna be?
Shelby:What do we want it to be? And what can people expect from us?
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:I think I think for me, personally, and I'd love to hear your perspective on this, but, like, when I think about what I want people to know about me coming into this space, you know, building relationships, whether it's virtually, face to face over Zoom, whatever it may be. But, you know, as we start to just, like, really expand and get to know more people, Like, I mean it when I say, like, I am so committed to helping people get where they wanna be. Like, it matters more to me than the words themselves could ever say. It's what lights me up. It's what gives me purpose.
Shelby:Like, I could talk about this stuff and do this every single minute of every day. Like, I I love it. I really, really do because I I think there's nothing more satisfying than watching people take back their own power and, like, regain a really confident, like, sense of ownership and control of their own lives and professionally and personally. And I think just where we're at in the world right now, like, we just we need more people who feel that level of innate confidence and, like, I'm I'm where I wanna be, and it's on purpose. And
Dennis:Yeah.
Shelby:So I think if if if that that's my commitment. Like, that's anyone watching or listening to this. Like, you know, it's like, I almost wanna, like, look into the camera. Like, you have my word. Like, I care so much,
Dennis:so much. Yeah. And and you do that's the thing. Like, you you naturally do. It's it's it's you you get to spend any time with you and just kinda talking about a I mean, you you're so good at just being that listener and just being able to just open and and just help people have those those quick little, like, oh, yeah.
Dennis:You know, build that confidence over time. So, I mean, it is. It's naturally you, and I I think that's what makes everything we're doing so authentic and and real and honest and and, like you said, real. Right? Like, we aren't like, these are things that, like, truly are baked into a lot of what we've done for ourselves, but just who we are as individuals.
Dennis:Right? So like you, I mean, I I found my way into the people team, I think, naturally, because I'm very empathetic and people a people person. Right? And I I I really love seeing people get to success. Right?
Dennis:So a lot of time was spent inside a company and helping building programs to, you know, help people get to whatever that version of a win was for them quicker than just figuring it out through osmosis. But, you know, I think, generally, you know, when you when you've done I've done a lot of things that have worked for companies. I've worked for myself. Like, you you realize, like, if I if you can do it for your when you build that level of confidence, you go like, you know what? I could do anything I wanna do.
Dennis:Right? Like, that empowerment. Like, I could I mean, sure. And I say that with, like, truly, there's, like we all have constraints. Right?
Dennis:But I think that's also the best thing about design in general is, like, how do you design stuff around a constraint? That's the best ideas come from that. But that true embodiment of I'm in control. Mhmm. Right?
Dennis:And I can I can I can do this? I know I can, and I will do it. And some some of those, that could be a big risk where you go off and build the next big change in our world that we see and we live in every day. Right? And I think to your point, seeing people just kinda kinda hold all that stuff back Mhmm.
Dennis:In the spirit of, like, infusion, loss, whatever whatever whatever that is. You know? Fear. It's hot. Like, all Fear.
Dennis:Oh, gosh. Yeah. All very yeah. And, like, very, very normal. And anything anything I mean, everything's there's a a spirit to everything.
Dennis:Totally. But there's a lot of truth to just owning owning yourself. And that means owning owning well, you say it a lot. You know? It's our truth.
Dennis:You know? Like, owned you know? And that truth
Shelby:There is no wrong answer if it's what is right for you. Like For
Dennis:sure. At that given time too. Right? Like, for for some that may be like, hey. I can't go out and do my big endeavor that I hope one day I, yeah, you may not be able to right now because you're handling the thing that needs to be handled that allows you to do that in the next 5 years.
Dennis:You know? So I think it's all it's super it's super exciting. I think most people just need the support. They need their some of the resources. They need they need the the ability to, you know, feel a sense of, like, inspiration to say, like, well, that person is just like me, and they did it.
Dennis:You know? But also know, like, we're not gonna give you just the end result here. I think, you know, the idea of Careers Unwrapped is to
Shelby:Yeah.
Dennis:Show people that this is still work. You know? I mean, you have to show up every day and be working on your career. It's not a like you said, it's not just a there's no done state here. Right?
Dennis:Yeah. I think that's important too. Is this you know, I've seen I've heard people go through some crazy journeys, but but they got there. You know? And those are the great stories.
Dennis:You know? Totally.
Shelby:Well, do you wanna anything that we wanna share on, like, the platform or sort of, like, expectations on timing of this podcast?
Dennis:Yeah. You know, and I think I think just for people to know that, you know, a lot of what we're doing right now is, you know, really starting to, like, relaunch and rebrig these 3 kind of pillars to to the masses, in very different ways. Right? You know, a lot of the work has been, you know, through, you know, helping our our business accounts with, you know, transition support and practicing these and learning from this stuff in those environments. But now, like, being able to open this up more broadly to, you know, anyone, that comes with the full platform that is really designed around these 3 these principles.
Dennis:There's also some really cool stuff we've been launching. We have our BLT newsletter coming out, which is a great great, goes back to that belief, that we talked about and and, you know, actionable tips every week or so that'll help you make progress towards it. Right? And I think, you know, we're always trying to give this stuff away. I think probably we'd give it all away if we could.
Dennis:Mhmm. Literally literally would. Yeah. Yeah. So when we, when we can, we will.
Dennis:When we can't, that's where you'll find it in the platform. But I would say just keep following along with us. Like, follow along in this podcast. Follow with follow along with us on LinkedIn. We post a lot there.
Dennis:And then, you know, we're co creating this together. Right? Like, this is episode 1, hopefully, of many, and I think we're gonna be soliciting for ideas and topics. And, you know, I think, you know, we learn by working truly closely with everyone that we get to encounter. So try not to do this stuff in a vacuum.
Dennis:So
Shelby:Totally. Yeah. I think that's the center of everything. So, echo everything that you just shared and, you know, to anyone listening, like, consider this equal parts, like, a commitment from us to make this as open and inclusive of a space as possible because there there really is no abnormal, anymore. Like, you know, like, everyone's experience is there's a lot of similarities, but, obviously, like, everyone's on their own journey.
Shelby:And, like, every path is valid and kind of celebrating that and creating the space for that is something that really matters to us, and we hope that this place that we can do that. And then the second part of this is so, you know, obviously, that commitment, but then also just an open invitation to anyone listening. You know? Like Dennis said, like, join us in the community LinkedIn. You know?
Shelby:Visit us career sandwich.com. But also, you know, we're just humans too. Right? Like, shoot us a DM and, like Yeah. You you have an idea, you wanna talk about something, like, you want us to talk about something or dive into a topic, like, please, you know, be a part of the conversation because that's what makes it as impactful and meaningful and valuable as possible.
Dennis:So Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Awesome. Awesome.
Shelby:Well, I think, you know, let's I think let's wrap up episode 1. This was so fun. It up.
Dennis:It is. I'm really I'm it's gonna be, it's gonna be great. I really, really am excited. So Me too. Me too.
Dennis:Awesome.
Shelby:Yeah. I appreciate the talk, and thank you again to everyone listening.
Dennis:It's great. Absolutely. Yeah.