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A show about basketball
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Welcome to Gucci Row on the Rebel HD 2. I'm your host Kevin Kelly with co-host Will Despar. Thanks for tuning in to our court side conversations covering all things NBA.
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Gucci Roe, episode 3. We're in the building. I'm your host, Kevin Kelly.
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I'm your co-host, Will Despart. And we're coming to you live. Will, how are you doing today, man?
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Good, how are you? Good, good, good. You know, we're finally past the end of the season, the 2023 season's officially over. I'm feeling good. I'm ready to head into an exciting off-season. in talk about just past dynasties and how they've manifested and what defines them and who could be joining in on those types of conversations. And then if we have time, we'll finish out with our NBA rapper draft. So to begin, I guess the Nuggets, congrats to the Denver Nuggets and all Denver on their first NBA championship ever. It's a long, grueling journey for them, I want to say like 47 years. And they just beat the Heat in five games and held them to 89 points in the closeout game. So, congrats are up to the Nuggets on their first ring. Yeah, they were incredible all postseason, really. I mean, to me, other than when they dropped those two against Phoenix. I don't think other than that there was really ever a time in this postseason where it was questionable that they were going to win it all. So again props to them. Yeah even the you know the game that the Heat stole from them they shot the skin off the pill. There was there was no containing them and it was clear that they would have to do that for four games to be able to beat him. The Nuggets held the heat to an average of 96 points per game through the five game finals. For a team whose all of their questions at the beginning of the year and about how far they could go and if they could contend were all centered around defense entirely. And they really stepped up and holding a team under 100 in the NBA is extremely impressive in one game let alone the whole series. Yeah, there's not much else you can say besides that. I mean, they're definitely a juggernaut and they're going to be a force to be reckoned with for the years to come. 100%. Especially, you know, their core obviously is so young with Jokic being 28 and then Murray and MPJ significantly younger than them, but him then. But their role players too, I think, are what allowed them to perform so well on that end of the floor. Like you talk about Christian Brown, a rookie, and Bruce Brown, who no one wanted to sign in the offseason. In their meetings, they literally asked Bruce Brown, why are you not signed yet? And his quote was something about how teams just don't know how to play him. And I mean we saw him be super impactful in that like Swiss Army knife do everything type of role And contributed a lot to that defense and Aaron Gordon obviously I think he's the defensive MVP of this team he Is able to take on so many different matchups and transformed his body completely from when he was in Orlando he was a like a more lanky vertical guy and just really really build his body into Being able to defend anyone They're just so deep to like even if it's only eight or nine guys getting on the court. They're all NBA talent all People that can contribute to a championship team and they showed that they have no weaknesses in their lineup that they put out there
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Yeah, I mean you even saw
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DeAndre Jordan be a plus in a finals game in 2023. He had a block. Yeah, it's impressive what they're able to get out of their guys, especially like we mentioned MPJ who had real bad shooting woes for this series, but the playoffs in general and he just stepped up in so many different ways. He had 13 rebounds in the closeout game, hit eight triple doubles in the postseason and only 3 in the regular season. Which they didn't, and they were still able to win. In Game 5, the closeout win, they shot 18% from 3, which is the lowest in any win or loss in the playoffs, with a minimum of 25 attempts. When you think about the modern rendition of the NBA, you tend to think about shooting a lot. And this wasn't their only... they had at least three games under 35% from three. They were able to do it inside the arc and big part from passing from Jokic if you want to get into his series that he had a little. Well, first I was going to say that's the hallmark of a great team is just when you can play a game like that where you're obviously not hitting your shots and you're not playing to the best of your abilities and you can still pull out a win, that just shows how deep you are. But as far as Jokic goes, I think it was just more of the same for him as far as what he's did this postseason. I mean, you saw it was game two or game three maybe we had the 30 20 10 game. He was just That's one of the best finals games ever. I would say you could put in the top 10 surely, but he's There's just not enough superlatives to say about him and what he did this postseason I think he answered all the questions. I said nuggets in four before the series. It was nuggets in five
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So yeah, and you know
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He's just the most unselfish, like, all-time great superstar that I've seen in a long time. Like, his, uh... He tends to play better when he doesn't have to score a ton, which is, you know... You don't really hear about that much. Like, his, uh, highest score... The game that he beat them in the finals, he was able to score pretty easily. I think he had 41, um, but had, like, 4 assists and 5 turnovers and like That's just such a more significant stat for him We sort of found out in the warrior series last year that the way to beat that Nuggets team is to make Jokic score and to not let him force his way out and force it to other teammates because when he can He's gonna score no matter what you're not gonna keep yoga gender 20 points You're probably not going to keep him under 30 most nights if he's doing that and getting 10 assists and 20 rebounds, you have zero
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shot to win the game.
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Yeah, no, you bring up a good point too, because that was a lot of the talk about how do you deal with this guy is, you know, a lot of people landed on this idea of making him a to In the finals he had 30 points per game, 14 rebounds per game, and 7 assists per game. And he was one of three players to play at least 15 postseason games and have a player efficiency rating of 30 or more who won the finals. LeBron, three times, Michael Jordan, Shaq, and now Nikoli Jokic. uh... that obviously puts him in uh... really rare uh... company and he is continues to rise up the all-time lists but uh... he doesn't have the media presence or the desire to be there that most other guys do if you wanna speak to that i just thought it was funny how after he won he was just like doesn't want to go to the parade he just wants to go back to serbia and see the horses i think that's i wouldn't say it's a breath of fresh air, but I come to appreciate it. I don't hate it like some other people in the media do. I think it's like, you know, your life isn't basketball. Yeah, I agree. You know, so many of the all-time greats that we talk about and have watched their whole life have just an extreme unheard of dedication to their sport and to their craft, which is extremely admirable. I'm not, by any means, taking away from those people. But yeah, it is interesting, like you said, to see someone who, in his own words, with his interview with Malik Andrews, said that, basketball is not the main thing in my life, it's just something I'm good at, which is insane. You're not just good at it, he's the best player on Earth. So, yeah, I think that that's a sort of mindset on earth. So, yeah, I think that that's a sort of mindset that is extremely unique, especially in a similar profession like this where you have to dedicate so much. It's those type of guys that are like unfazeable too, though, right? Like they're not going to be overwhelmed by the pressure of going into a big game like
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this because it's just a job to them.
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It's not like they're not buying into the media hype, they're not buying into the bells Late-game freak those probably feel a bit easier in those situations when you have that mindset But to shift over to the heat Despite coming up short, I think it's you know, one of the best playoff runs in this century You know, they're in eight seed they Made the finals after almost losing in the play and just something that really no one predicted at the beginning of the season or even before the postseason got kicked off, so just a an incredible run for them and I thought an interesting stat was That he had more four-game winning streaks in the playoffs with two Then an entire regular season where they only won four games in a row one time.
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It was just, it's not even like believable in hindsight, right? Like you see it happen and if you told me this two months ago that the Heat were going to make the finals as an 8 seed, it probably would have been one of the more unbelievable things I've ever heard in my life, especially considering what the Bucs were doing. The Bucs were, at that point, looking like a surefire championship team with what they built around Giannis. The Celtics, the defending Eastern Conference champions, and when the Bucks get eliminated, you're like, oh, surely it's the Celtics' run now, like there's nothing in the way of
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them, and then it just keeps, and the Heat just keep doing it. Yeah, even as a Heat fan, I'd be lying if I didn't agree with that sentiment. Maybe I tend to be, not pessimistic, but maybe too realist. But yeah, it was not many people, even from what I saw among Heat fans, that had extreme was I bet on the Bulls that night. I was not expecting a heat win in that game. Yes anything against the Bucs or Anything moving forward for sure and then you know the first two series Jimmy just stepped up to another level and and then the you know surrounding cast followed suit and We're able to take them along. So Yeah, especially, you know BAM towards even though we lost and he had to play one of the best centers of all time and ultimately got outmatched. Bam had a really good finals. He stepped up in aggressiveness on offense a lot which is something that Heat fans tend to complain about all the time. Sometimes unfounded but sometimes pretty justified and he was really looking for his shots and trying to make Yoke work on defense and I think that was a really big part to why we were successful. I definitely think BAM has earned some of the Criticism he's got from heat fans, especially but this postseason Especially the finals showed that he belongs on that team, especially as a defensive presence
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Yeah, and even on offense he's a major contributor and he's a huge building block for that team going forward
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Yeah, and even when he's not scoring, you know, he's The reason that I guess some of it would I'd call unjustified is because he is like the hub of the Heat's offense and plays such an important role in getting guys involved and in starting actions where it's like, you know, if he wanted to he could probably look for a shot every possession but that's not his job. So ultimately I think he balances that pretty well and like you said this playoffs has stepped up in that department. I'm not saying that it would make a game-changer in how this series went, but Tyler Herro being out for the whole playoffs and Vic Oladipo going down, I just think, although Tyler is pretty undoubtedly the more impactful player to the 2023 heat, I think having Vic Oladipo Depot would have gone a long way in helping to defend Jamal Murray.
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So yeah, I think those two guys at least would have made things a little more interesting. I think it's easy to say that in hindsight, but knowing the run that went on, I think just the combination of factors that was so unbelievable for it to happen. I don't know if you can put Tyler Hero in there and the same thing happens, or you could put Victor Oladipo in there and the same thing happens. happened like that run although Gabe Vincent disappeared toward the end although Caleb Martin disappeared toward the end they were still hallmarks of
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this run you don't get to the finals without their performances so I don't know if Tyler Harrow could have came in and done that. It's a fair point you know basketball is so circumstantial to where um you know something like that could play a factor like you mentioned guys like Gabe and Caleb and even Struce stepped up at times it's uh yeah it's tough to predict whether those guys have would have been as impactful or have had the confidence to shoot as much as they did and all those things which speaking of those guys are going to get a good payday from from their contributions this offseason but the Heat have a lot to deal with with Max truce Gabe Vincent Kevin love Cody Zeller Victor Oladipo Heywood Highsmith Omer Yurts have been and Udonis has them all being free agents has them who is hanging up the jersey Great career, by the way. Yeah, hang up number 40. Let's get it in the rafters He had such a huge impact on the city of Miami to being a kid that came from Liberty City and to play his whole Career for the Heat. He's maybe one of the most important heat players of all time. Yeah He's you know tied for the second longest tenured career with one team You know, he played 20 seasons in Miami after like you said growing up right there in Liberty City And yeah providing so much Entertainment and just love for that city for sure. So providing so much Entertainment and just love for that city for sure. So I think it would be well worth hanging number 40 and Yeah for reference Dirk played 21 seasons with the Mavs and Kobe's tied with him with 20 seasons for the Lakers It's just an unbelievable thing to think about like To contextualize in hindsight. We've seen the bronze career play out, but that's been with four different teams over That amount of seasons and it's just crazy, especially when you talk about You know player empowerment and how guys Have such a hand in their own career and where they go and that type of thing. It's it's got to be Extremely easy to see greener grass on other sides But that's just something that you'd be locked in and he is the definition of heat culture and I hope he sticks around well past his retirement in Miami.
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I don't think there's any doubt about that.
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I think he'll be there forever. Yeah. So, I guess speaking into the winner of this series, I've heard rumblings about the future of the Nuggets and if they could sort of sneak into the conversation of dynasties in the next few years based on their age and the support system they have around them. I was wondering if you think that that's a possibility?
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I mean I don't think anything is impossible. I definitely think they have another championship run in them, but to me a dynasty is like three and four years or two and even three years, but geez that's even light so I would probably say, yeah, three and four years is what you need to qualify for a dynasty in my book, and that's going to be quite impossible.
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I mean, there's so much parity in the league now. It's interesting, like, how we colloquially define dynasties, because I agree. I think a lot of the dynasties we think of have that, like you said, two and three, three or one consecutive run type of things. But, like, would you consider the Spurs a dynasty? Yeah, but, I mean, that's a good point. I would say, like, there needs to be a chunk of rings, like, in a short period of time.
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No, I agree.
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And I think it's, to that point, it's interesting. I think that that's probably the best way to define it, and if you get to more detail, you cut out teams that are probably, certainly qualified to be dynasties. So I guess to give a little context, the oldest dynasty, well, probably the best dynasty in sports and the oldest one that I could think of was the Celtics, the Bill Russell Celtics, in So it seems to be that these dynasties have a profound impact on the game and changing it, at least shifting some aspect. Bill Russell personally weaponized the block and is probably the best defender in basketball history and then he won the last two titles as a player coach. I think that all dynasties have that sort of centerpiece to go along with all the Counterpieces, I don't know if you want to get into another dynasty we could talk about Well the Bulls obviously I mean for me Jordan's a goat I Get LeBron arguments. I'm not gonna go too hard against them, but I think when you have a peak as high as Jordan I think Jordan had an air of invincibility that LeBron never had which is why I put Jordan above LeBron Because there was a time in the 90s, well two separate times in the 90s, where there was really no other team in consideration for the championship, it was just Michael Jordan's coronation. But with that said, he did need some support to get to that point, they had to build around him, they had to add Scottie Pippen, they had to add Horace Grant, guys like that, and really like they built a very great team outside of Michael Jordan and they showed that when they made the run without him in 94-95 to the Eastern Conference Finals. Yeah and had all-stars. B.J. Armstrong was an all-star that year. For sure. But also I think that you bring up a point when you talk about the people around them. I think Coaching is something often overlooked in dynasties Like I mentioned obviously all Dynasties that you can point to have you know that all-time superstar, but I think they all also have all-time coaches You know obviously Phil Jackson with With those Bulls and red all back with the older Celtics, so yeah, I think and obviously fill with the next With the Showtime Lakers one point that should be brought up about those old Celtics teams
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I would say they did only play in a league with eight teams Like it's definitely easier to stack up 11 championships when there's only the amount of teams and one conferences playoffs in
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2023 so which goes to, in my opinion, why the Nuggets might have a tough time entering these conversations. It's because the competition in the league is at an all-time high. Parody we saw this year is so high. It's not like that period in the 10s where you just knew it was going to be LeBron vs Steph every year. So to bring them in, you know, you could probably get into the Warriors. They're certainly a dynasty. Yeah, I mean, having been a Warriors fan for most of my life, I became a Warriors fan about 2011, 2012. No particular rhyme or reason, just because I liked the team. I liked where they were going. Monta Ellis. Yeah, I was a big Monta Ellis guy. I liked Steph then too, but that was like the earliest I could document my fandom in like 2011 so I saw them and they're very very bad and it became very good and I would say around 2012 2013 you could tell there was something really special there I think it was a 2013 playoffs and they were facing the Spurs in the first round it was the second round actually they beat the Grizzlies in the first round or the Nuggets it was actually Andre Iguodala's Nuggets and they actually got Iguodala the next season and he was a huge piece of their aforementioned run. Yeah, but back to this they're in the second round and they're facing the Spurs who would eventually win the title that season over LeBron Or they actually lose the finals on Trippin They would lose the finals that year because it was the year before they won it. Mm-hmm. And that was like The dynasty Spurs like Tim Duncan Manu, you know, it was like they're you know culmination of what everything they've been and stuff took them to six games And it was a very close series and there were points in the series where it looked like they had the upper hand against the Spurs
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And there was that that point I knew okay, this team is gonna make a run at some point
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Yeah
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and I guess on the Warriors a Question is because a lot of like I mentioned dynasties and coaches going so hand in hand and I think you could even put front offices in that conversation you know without with the front office making changes in the Warriors and talks about how Kerr could make a Phil Jackson move and you know head somewhere else do you think that that would be the end of the dynasty if we lose you know Steve Kerr I mean categorically I think sure I think if they do it under a different coach Wouldn't you have to qualify that it's a different dynasty, but that furthering the point I I do give credit to Kerr for like taking us out of the purgatory that Mark Jackson had us in in terms of like Offensive stalemate and just having Steph play Iso ball and everything But we're at the point now where like he's passed enough of his wisdom to the Warriors organization like Steph is absorbed enough of that where I'm sure that if we hired another coach they would just be a basically a Steve Kerr disciple at that point. I don't think the drop-off would be too drastic at this point but I do give him credit for establishing what he established. And I think you guys are in a front office wise in a good position to you know make the moves you need to to continue runs with or without Steve Kerr, so I agree. I guess, so to question whether the nuggets are won, I guess it's yet to come. A couple questions, do you think, would you consider, because I guess we're trying to define it, would you consider the heat, though it was only four years, a dynasty, or is that too short in your opinion? I don't know if I would because like I Think they had the chance to I think if they won 14 or they won in 11 I think it would have but I don't know if two in a row Macy with dynasty I think it just I think you have to do something besides that that's fair. I mean I For some reason I'm more inclined to give them the title than the Kobe Powell Lakers But that's all the Kobe Powell Lakers are not a dynasty, but you know they I'm not hearing an argument the other way. They went to two finals, they lost one completely handily, and they almost lost the other if it wasn't for the fact that they had a lot of experience.
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I think that's a good thing.
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I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing.
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I think that's a good thing.
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I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing.
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I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. other way. They went to one, two finals, they lost one completely handily and they almost
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lost the other if it wasn't for a Kobe dream fourth quarter in game seven of 2010. So no, that's not a dynasty. Yeah. And then, yeah, I guess the last one, as we mentioned, you know, the Spurs who, despite it being, you know, more spread out, it wasn't one run have, you know, they got They got five titles in a 15-year run with the same core and the same coach So I think that's the Spurs was very like Patriots ask like just steady Not dominance, but they were there and they had their runs and their peaks and and when they were at their peak They were unbeatable, but there were also times during those runs where they faltered and they had they lost in the first round of Memphis. I Before those runs they lost in the first round they lost in the first round after like they they had
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Slip-ups they lost to the Lakers. They lost to the Suns like they yeah now for sure and
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Yeah, it's when it's over such a big stretch I I'd still consider it that but like you said there they weren't like They didn't have just this super peak run and then fall off. They just were at the top, remained there for a long time. They also benefited from a weak week post-Shorten. They really didn't have much competition in the West. At that point, there were points during their run, I would say, like 03-05. After the Lakers in 04, the Lakers were not much of a threat for the rest of the 2000s until 2008-2009.
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They were very bad in 07
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Yeah, yeah, it's a good point Even the arm East, you know the Pistons were able to go to the conference finals for years So I I think that there's a good point there with the post MJ NBA era, but yeah, I mean, you know, I guess if there was one other Team in the league that you think would be poised to be not a dynasty but enter Conversations of it just based off core or recent success. Is there any way you'd go with that? well, this will be an interesting one because I think it It just goes off what I they remind me of the teeth. I think the Kings They remind me of the 2012 Warriors that I was just talking about or a team That's like you they look very good in the regular season They look like they're building something in the regular season, they get to the playoffs and they face this great dynasty core of legends and they go and they hold their own basically and they barely lose. I have a hard time believing they're not going to step it up next year. I think Darren Fox could maybe have an MVP candidate type season and I have a lot of
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faith in them going forward, surprisingly.
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this year like you said Fox who had his best well his first playoff appearance and was phenomenal and like you said their core you know Sabonis is young they have you know Herter Mitchell all the all the surrounding pieces that it you know are certainly going to help them get back here I think if I could go one direction with it it's tough to say I you know I know that there's so So much talk about them still and as a heat fan, this is going to really hurt me to say But I think that the Celtics have such a good core that the next like eight years could look really good for them personally They got to keep the drama down though because they're having some issues with Jalen Brown. Yeah, you know, but they just have such a elite guard room to deal with and and you know so many different moves that they can make to continue this core going for a long time so I guess we'll keep up Kings Celtics and Nuggets and see who's more likely to get into this conversation. Yep this is a this has been a great time this is episode 3 of Gucci Row I appreciate you for being here. That's a wrap for Gucci Row this week thanks for tuning in on The Rebel HD 2 with your hosts Kevin Kelly and Will Dusparte. You can find us on Instagram at 1kevkelly and willdusparte. You can find us on Instagram at 1kevkelly and willdusparte. We'll see you next time on The Rebel HD 2.