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In this episode of The Shrink Down, we explore the multifaceted nature of motherhood, examining the overwhelming emotions and societal pressures that come with being a mother. We discuss expectations placed on women to become mothers, the importance of self-care, and the challenges of balancing work and family life. The conversation also touches on intensive parenting, the myth of maternal instinct, and the value of personal time to recharge. Ultimately, this episode highlights the complexity of motherhood and encourages embracing the individual journey of parenting.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:00.78)
Welcome to the shrink down. Ladies, how are we doing today? Good, good. Well, I should say I am feeling a little overwhelmed with the news that's going on and I'm still struggling to like, you know, find that balance of, you know, hearing it, watching it and not digesting too much of it. I think the issue is what's happening currently in Chicago and that's like my hometown. And so to me, feels very like personal, especially
Teri (00:03.75)
Good.
Lauren (00:04.097)
Good, how are you?
Wilhelmina (00:04.879)
Good.
Wilhelmina (00:24.424)
Mm, yeah.
Teri (00:26.108)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (00:30.176)
with it having to do with like immigration and my family is, you I've said this before on the show, you guys know like I'm first generation here. So just feels very like heavy and a lot. And I'm just mentioning it because I know that other people are feeling that way. But I feel like it's especially for me right now. It feels very, very personal. So it's hard. But yeah, yeah, finding that balance. yeah.
Teri (00:52.762)
Yeah, it's a lot. That detention center is about 15 minutes from my house in Illinois.
Vanessa (00:59.982)
Yeah, mean, yeah, like watching videos of like places that I know, like, you know, it's like, Kedzie in Chicago. I know where that is, you know, and it just, it just is hitting really close to home. I mean, literally home for me. So it's just been hard. And so I just want to say that because I know that a lot of people are feeling that way. And while, you know, this show is, you know, we try to do this, this podcast so that we can talk about like the full spectrum, like fun things, hard things, all the things. So
Wilhelmina (01:00.111)
Really?
Lauren (01:12.737)
Literally.
Vanessa (01:27.148)
I felt like it's only right to be honest and say kind of how I'm feeling. Today's topic. So we are going to be talking about motherhood. And there's so much that comes along with that. We were texting about the topic. We're going to be talking about just the pressure of the expectation that women should become mothers. And then once we are mothers, the pressures that we feel, are we doing the right thing? Are we being good moms?
you know, taking a step away and how do you feel about, you know, your time away from your children. So we're gonna talk about all the different aspects of motherhood today. But before we get into today's topic, we're gonna do our four minute faves. Let's see, Terry, do you wanna start us off today?
Teri (02:08.859)
Sure. My pick just happens to line up with today's topic. It was not intentional. I don't want to add to the weight and pressure of parenting and being a good mom. It is a book called Autonomy Supportive Parenting, Reduce Parental Burnout and Raise Confident Children. It's by Dr. Emily Edlin, who is a fellow clinical psychologist, a Loyola graduate.
and who lives in my town of Oak Park.
Lauren (02:39.127)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (02:39.224)
I was like, you know her, right? Because you've recommended her book. It's great. Yes.
Teri (02:41.133)
I know her. Yes. Yes. So I know her personally. She's actually sharing my new my little office in Oak Park one day a week. She's subletting and she does a she does talks at schools and she came to my kid's school last week or two weeks ago to give a parent talk about this exact topic. And truth be told, I finally dove into the book because I knew she was coming to speak at my kid's school and I was going to introduce her for the talk. And
Vanessa (02:48.206)
nice.
Lauren (02:49.857)
Thank
Lauren (03:09.207)
It's often a good little push.
Teri (03:10.947)
Yes, that was my push. And another confession, I have been selecting chapters that feel most applicable for my stage of life. For example, the first one, yeah, the first one I read was homework and how to tackle homework and homework strategies. I would just be thrilled if my kids as not right now, but as they age, and I'm thinking more ahead to high school, were
Wilhelmina (03:11.288)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (03:21.314)
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
Lauren (03:21.675)
That makes sense.
Vanessa (03:21.772)
Yeah, think that's totally makes sense.
Lauren (03:26.391)
Ciao.
Teri (03:38.956)
relatively autonomous and independent as things ramp up with lengthy papers, projects. I just see what my clients and teenagers I evaluate have on their plate in terms of workload and autonomy is going to be critical when they are high schoolers and college students. So if there are foundational skills that I could work on now with my kids when they're in fifth grade, third grade, you know, more so my fifth grader, I really thought this would be a wise choice.
Lisa Demore, one of our faves, did a little forward, like her quote is on the top. Emily is a lovely person. If anyone is looking for someone to give a talk, I'm sure she does virtual talks too. And then just in the Chicagoland area, she has spoken at a lot of elementary and high schools, but the book is really readable. Again, you can look at the table of contents and just select by chapter what topic you want to focus on. Yeah, she is a parent of three kids herself.
Lauren (04:10.615)
Yeah.
Vanessa (04:12.205)
Mm.
Lauren (04:29.227)
Yeah. It's nice. Yeah.
Vanessa (04:29.96)
the best way for that type of book.
Teri (04:34.553)
So she knows what she's talking about. She's a very busy career and has three kids. So she's in the trenches with us. This isn't just her writing about theories, but all of her suggestions are grounded in empirical research. So it's very research-based, very mom, parent-friendly, too, very realistic about the world of travel sports we all live in and video games and technology and cell phones and just the...
culture that we're currently raising kids in. It's very timely. That's a good. I had that same. I had that same thought talking about kids and being independent. So yes, stay. Yes, stay. Stay tuned. Yeah. How about you, Lauren?
Wilhelmina (05:02.786)
landscape.
Well, maybe she'll maybe she can join us on the podcast one day. would be awesome. Come chat with us.
Vanessa (05:09.361)
that'd be great.
Lauren (05:12.279)
That'll be fun.
Vanessa (05:15.672)
Yeah.
Lauren (05:16.332)
that.
Lauren (05:20.961)
So I am going to recommend something that I thought Wilhelmina recommended last year, and we must have been talking offline about it because it's not on Wilhelmina's faves page on our little Instagram page. So actually Wednesday, which I know we've talked about and we may have mentioned on here, but the reason I'm recommending it is because we just finished season two. It is so enjoyable. And what did you watch it?
Vanessa (05:37.356)
We've talked about it, but none of us made it. Yeah. Yeah, we did. We did. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (05:39.926)
Yeah, that is a fave, yeah.
Vanessa (05:49.993)
Yeah, because I think we've brought it up. There was some episode recently brought it up. So yeah, so we watched it. I love it. I love it.
Wilhelmina (05:50.744)
Be fine.
Lauren (05:51.125)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. my gosh. So enjoyable. And I thought particularly it's very easy to get through season. There's only two seasons, but I loved some of the supporting characters from last season getting bigger roles this season, like Catherine Zeta Jones. I thought that was like so like some of those supporting characters are so strong this season. Not that Jenna Ortega. I mean, she's incredible.
Vanessa (06:08.11)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (06:09.612)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (06:12.635)
I didn't even know she was.
Lauren (06:20.375)
You sort of, you know, she does the job of an actress. You forget who she is. But it's just so, it's like such a fun watch and like tis the season. So yes, I thought Wilhelmina recommended it last year and I was gonna just, I was gonna mention like I support that recommendation. But yeah, so just like a like a fresh recommendation. There's only two seasons if you haven't watched it. So it's not like you're behind. And it's really, really fun. Yeah.
Vanessa (06:46.542)
It's so good. It's really good. didn't watch it. so, um, Ev's eight, so she's too young to watch it. She's also like very, it's, it's kind of scary. It's scary. Like, it's not, there's nothing inappropriate. It's just scary. So if you have a kid who's kind of scared, like that's not, you have to be a little bit older for a kid. So I watched it by myself and I love it. It's so good. I mean, it's a murder, it's a murder mystery is what it is. So good.
Wilhelmina (06:47.373)
It's.
Lauren (06:50.08)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. There's some jump scares, jump scares. Yeah, right. Yep. Yep.
Wilhelmina (06:55.884)
It's scary. It's a little scary, yeah.
Lauren (07:03.605)
Yep. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (07:07.758)
Yeah. Yep.
Lauren (07:08.361)
I told, yeah, yeah, I told Tim to download it. He's going to be traveling quite a bit coming up here. And I told him to download it for the plane, like just to watch on his own, because with his travel, it ended up being the boys and I really watching the bulk of it together. And he was like, really? And I'm like, I absolutely recommend this for you to watch on the plane. So he's going to do that this upcoming week. So yeah, it's fun.
Vanessa (07:26.986)
So I can tell you about.
Vanessa (07:31.98)
My hairdresser and I were like dying talking to him. He's like, Wednesday. And I'm like, my gosh, Wednesday. It's so good. He's like, why are not more people talking about this? I'm like, I don't know. So, and then, yes. Yeah, there was, yes.
Lauren (07:36.381)
It's so good! Yeah!
So good.
Wilhelmina (07:41.635)
think people talked about it a lot first season. mean, that was like, I mean, it was, Which is why I think I didn't mention it because I think we had already like watched it all. Yeah, so we were in the, wouldn't have talked about it.
Lauren (07:44.819)
So there was a long break. think that's what it was. Is it was... it wasn't last year. Yes. That makes sense. That makes sense. Okay.
Vanessa (07:53.388)
It was a while ago, yeah, there was a big break.
Yeah, it was great. I actually liked, I think I liked this season, the second season better. Did you like it? I liked the second season better. And then on top of like the phenomenal like actors who are in it, I mean, there's so many people from the original who are like in it in different character roles. And then they even have special guests. So Lady Gaga is in the second season. Yes. Yes. It's so good.
Lauren (08:02.657)
Think so too.
Wilhelmina (08:02.936)
I like the first season, but.
Lauren (08:09.879)
So good.
Wilhelmina (08:13.048)
Christina Rizzi. Yeah.
Lauren (08:14.869)
Yes, yes.
Lady Gaga. I had to Google. was like, is that Lady Gaga? But Steve Buscemi is in it. And we were looking up, there's like very slight little tiny references, not references specifically, but like little odes to Happy Gilmore. Like he like holds a golf club at one point. Like there's just tiny little things. And those are both Netflix things. I don't know. It was just so fun. We had a good time with it. So yes, highly recommend.
Wilhelmina (08:18.562)
Yes, yes.
Wilhelmina (08:24.12)
Yep. So creepy this season.
Vanessa (08:35.278)
Yeah, there's a little.
Vanessa (08:44.922)
I don't think it's talked enough about, so I'm glad you brought that up. I actually thought about doing that for our fave. That was good.
Lauren (08:47.177)
No, yes, yeah, it's perfect for this season. Willamina. yeah, go ahead.
Wilhelmina (08:51.318)
You know what, what episode really highlighted the acting of Jenna Ortega and her roommate was the one, this really doesn't give anything away, where they, yeah, we were like, they both nailed each other. They like switch and so they are both like.
Vanessa (08:59.822)
yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (09:00.148)
No.
Vanessa (09:05.731)
They did.
Lauren (09:05.879)
Yes. Well, and do you know what's very funny? Jenna Ortega was in the Family Switch. Wasn't she the... Oh, no, no, no. No, it wasn't her. Enid is Enid, the character in Wednesday Enid is the daughter in the Family Switch. So she's had two... She's in Yes Day. Yes Day. No, but Enid, her, that actress is in the Family Switch. So she's now had these two experiences of playing different people and is very good at it.
Wilhelmina (09:13.167)
yes, yes, no, no.
Wilhelmina (09:21.24)
Jenna Ortega's in day off, parents day off or yesterday, yesterday, that's it.
Vanessa (09:21.942)
that's funny.
Vanessa (09:32.824)
people.
Wilhelmina (09:35.202)
Very good. Yeah. Love that.
Lauren (09:35.221)
very good at it. Yeah, it's like a really fun one. Yeah.
Vanessa (09:35.759)
Yeah, I actually read a, it is, I read an interview, the two of them, so the two of them are basically talking to each other, like they're kind of interviewing each other. And so they're talking about the episode in which they switch roles and how that was challenging for them. So it was just fascinating because Enid's character is very animated and Wednesday's is, well, know, Wednesday, Adam, she is not. And so they were talking about how difficult it was to kind of.
Lauren (09:43.51)
Yes.
Lauren (09:48.201)
interesting. Yeah.
Lauren (09:55.553)
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (09:55.598)
Bye.
Vanessa (10:02.314)
get out of their kind of regular character, one being so animated and the other one being so kind of stiff and almost robotic, and then how that felt to do that. that's a good episode.
Lauren (10:06.079)
Yeah. Yeah.
interesting. very well. Very well done. So that's that. Wilhelmina, what about you?
Wilhelmina (10:17.166)
Okay, so I have a book. This book was given to me as a birthday gift and I read it. My husband and I celebrated our 20 year wedding anniversary, as you guys know. And we went, thank you, we went to Savannah this last weekend. After we went there a couple of years ago on one of our trips, I loved it and thought, hey, where can we get to easy to get to easy to get from the airport to
Lauren (10:30.411)
Yeah, happy anniversary.
Teri (10:30.459)
Congrats.
Teri (10:40.41)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (10:47.318)
like the place you want to be. And so we spent a couple days there and it was really, really fun. And I got a chance to finish, actually like finish a book. This is not a long book. I feel like I should brag, but it like, is a 167 page book. So it's not long. So it's called Big Fan by Alexandra Romanoff, which I believe is a pen name.
Lauren (10:56.855)
Yeah.
Vanessa (10:58.616)
Thank
Lauren (11:04.353)
Hey.
Lauren (11:12.086)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (11:13.164)
is a journalist, a culture critic, and the author of three novels under like a different name. So I had never heard of this book. I'd never heard of the publishing company, as you can see, like it's like, if you're looking at this, it's like kind of an interesting book. So it's a publishing company called 831 Stories. And what they are, is they're a romance novel publisher. They are, it's run by two women who,
liked romance novels, basically was like, there's not always a, they were kind of like, how can we do something a little different? So they started this around COVID. The name of the publishing company is from the 90s beeper code for I love you, meaning 831. So eight letters, three words, one meaning is like, so, and they really are like the immersive.
Teri (11:59.27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (12:00.141)
No.
Lauren (12:02.199)
so we know how old they are.
Teri (12:03.418)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (12:11.68)
experience of like romance fiction, which I, I would say I dabble in it. I have friends who go dive much deeper. And of course, one of my friends who does is the one who gave me this. So she was sort of like, you need something to fill the summer. I turn pretty whole. And she's like, I think this is the good one. And it was so good. I mean, it was fast. It was fun. And some of the issue I have with like romance fiction is
it's gotta be like well written enough to not have me go like, eye roll, like cringe. And it's like, when they get to the sex part, I'm like, I don't need weird names and words that are gonna just take me away. It's like, yeah. I mean, all I can think is like, 50 Shades of Grey, know, where she's just like, so this was a good story. I like didn't wanna put it down.
Teri (12:46.937)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (12:56.763)
Weird adjectives. Yeah. Descriptors. Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (12:59.734)
you
Lauren (13:04.052)
Yeah
Teri (13:09.445)
What's it called again?
Wilhelmina (13:09.806)
I felt like a big fan. I could see it as a movie. It's basically about a, like 35 or 37 year old woman. She's coming off of a very, very public divorce and she's a political, what do you call it? Political, she helps people on campaigns, like get elected political. Yeah, so she's very like.
Teri (13:12.763)
Got it. Big fan.
Lauren (13:13.505)
Big fan.
Lauren (13:32.639)
strategist?
Teri (13:32.731)
Strategist strip. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (13:36.559)
very good at her job, but coming off this very public divorce where her husband cheated on her, she's sort of, people are, she's just been in the news even though she didn't do anything wrong. So she gets hired by this woman, but she's sort of like, well, I just don't want, you know, your life to take away from the campaign, which is a little weird because it's like, she didn't do anything wrong, her husband cheated on her. Meanwhile, she comes across this boy band.
man who she actually was like the head of the fan club for this sort of like Justin Timberlake. Let's just say if Justin Timberlake had been in a boy band and then left the scene and come back in his middle middle age to sort of be like, I think I'm going to go solo. She had a a fan group for him as a teenager. So now he reaches out to her he's like, can you be my strategic person to get me back out there because you did such a good job?
They connect, of course they have chemistry. So it's sort of this like meeting someone who you just used to love as a kid, but now you're meeting as adults and having chemistry. It's just really good. It's like more dynamic than what I would think a normal kind of just tawdry romance is. And as I said, I just couldn't put it down. It was fun. I could see it as a movie, quick read.
And for anyone who likes romance, was like not too much of anything. It was like the nice balance of story, sex, not too much. So it's not a closed door one where like the kiss and then the scene, it does show something, but it's not too much. It's great. So fun read.
Vanessa (15:19.214)
I hate when they do that in book. I'm like, come on. The next morning. It's like, okay. All right. Okay, so mine is not, mine's more of a review and you're going to do with my review with whatever you're going to do with my review. So
Lauren (15:19.799)
Hurt one.
Wilhelmina (15:21.558)
What? the closed door? No. No, no, Don't do that. The next morning... Boring.
Lauren (15:28.023)
You
Lauren (15:32.407)
.
Teri (15:33.499)
How about you, Vanessa?
Wilhelmina (15:33.975)
Okay.
Vanessa (15:41.775)
I went this weekend to the album release at the movie theater of Taylor Swift's Life of a Showgirl. So my girlfriend was taking her daughter. So she asked if I wanted to take, me and my daughter wanted to go there. My daughter's eight and a half, by the way. So we went and I didn't really look up to see what it is. I think that there's like two like Taylor Swift, like two camps of Taylor Swift people who like her music. There are like Swifties who are like Die Hard.
Teri (15:48.603)
Hmm
Vanessa (16:08.782)
follow all the Easter eggs, can't wait till her album comes out, have all the things. I am not in that camp. I am someone who like, there are lots of her songs that I like, but I'm not, don't follow any of this stuff. I have no idea. So I'm not a Swiftie, but I do like some of her music. So I went because my daughter likes her as well. And I mentioned this on a previous podcast that my daughter tends to like some of her older stuff that she wrote when she was younger. And I actually prefer some of the stuff that she's released more recently. So the...
Lauren (16:11.127)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (16:36.908)
this album release was basically just a way for them to promote this record. And so it was her talking about the creation of the video for one of the songs. So you get to see her kind of in the process of creating this video for the song Ophelia. And then she kind of walks you through each song and explains to you what the song was about. There were, the crowd was interesting. So we went to like a six o'clock show and the first
people who were there were these older, there was this two older women and older man. They had to be like in their sixties or older, which I was like, interesting. And it was just this like funny hodgepodge of like older people, kids who were younger than my daughter. And then like a couple of like older girls, you know, like 10, 12 with their parents, obviously. So it's just like this hodgepodge. So it's kind of interesting. I don't think the kids really enjoyed it very much to be honest, because it was her talking, like explaining the...
Wilhelmina (17:30.126)
Hmm.
Vanessa (17:34.967)
you know, the ideas, the concepts behind these songs. But I will say I actually thought it was really interesting. So if for some reason it goes on TV and you're interested in learning more about her process, I think it'd be worth a watch. I don't know that you need to go to the movie theater and I don't think it's even available. But I thought it was really interesting. She's very, very involved in the process of making this video. And then she walks through kind of the ideas about the songs, which I think it's
helpful to kind of hear what she's saying about what her songs are about because there's all these like hypothesis people are like all these articles out now like this is what this song's about and this is what yes I mean it's a little bit it's it's really bananas especially if you watch this and you hear her describing what the songs are actually about you're like I don't know I mean maybe she didn't disclose that but it seems like very far-fetched but there were a couple songs that I really like so she's got a song called Opalite which I thought was really I actually like it just hearing it
Wilhelmina (18:06.714)
my gosh, this line means this and they people are real digging deep.
Vanessa (18:28.733)
But she describes how her and her mom collect opals and opalites are, I guess, are manmade opals, which I had no idea because I don't know anything about opals. And so this song is about creating your own happiness and how you work to find your happiness. So thought that's, oh, that's an interesting kind of concept. So, you know, I think that people who are Swifties are going to love this album. I think people who don't like her, this is not going to change your mind about her, to be honest.
I don't think it's her best album. There's definitely a couple songs in there that I liked. And it was one of those things, like, you know, sometimes you read like a book series and the first book's like, okay, but you keep reading it anyway, and then it gets better. And then, or you watch a show, the first couple episodes, it kind like, man, but you keep watching and then it actually turns out good. Like, that's how I feel about this, is that when the first time I kind of listened to each song was kind of like, but then I've now listened to them a couple times. And you're like, oh yeah, there are a couple songs in there that I like. So it's not my favorite album of hers, but I do like some of the songs.
Lauren (19:09.484)
Yep.
Wilhelmina (19:16.568)
grows on you.
Vanessa (19:24.526)
I don't think anyone who didn't like her is gonna like her now because of this. I think people who liked her, okay, you're still gonna like her, okay, and all the Swifties are gonna still love her. So I think it was one of those things that she just did and I don't think it's, it's not changing anything for everyone, for anyone. So that's my review of the life of a show girl.
Wilhelmina (19:42.06)
I think that's a good balanced review. Like, I feel like you're probably going to stay exactly in the lane you are already in.
Vanessa (19:48.431)
Exactly. That's why. Yeah, I was like, if you didn't like her before, you're not gonna like her now. If you liked her before, it's not gonna change your mind. So that's my review on it. I think that is, yeah, I would say that that's my favorite song. I really liked Ophelia too. That's a good one too. Yeah, she has a song. mean, like again, I think she's very, I think she does well. She doesn't have the best singing voice. I think she's good. Her lyrics are good if you listen to her. She's got, yeah, they're catchy. They're catchy tunes. But she's got some songs in there. She's got a song in there about
Wilhelmina (19:54.902)
Is Opalite your favorite song?
Wilhelmina (20:00.526)
Yeah, that's I've heard that one. I like that one.
Vanessa (20:17.794)
you know, thinking back on your high school years and, you know, the regrets that you, like things that you wish you had done that you should have done. So she's got a song about that. She has a song about cancel culture, which I thought was interesting. So yeah, so think there's some, some good themes there, but again, I think whatever your thoughts are on her now, whatever it may be, positive or negative, it will not change if you listen to this album.
Wilhelmina (20:23.661)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (20:35.936)
You
Lauren (20:38.135)
Did you have to pay?
Vanessa (20:39.886)
Yeah, but it was like, I think the tickets were like $12. Like it was nothing like crazy. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (20:44.257)
Okay.
Lauren (20:47.029)
Man, she looks for any way to make money. Say what you want about her. She's never not looking for an opportunity to make some more money.
Vanessa (20:49.94)
I mean, she made millions this weekend. Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, it was $12 a piece. wasn't like it was anything extraordinary. yeah, it made millions. I was looking at some article, like she made millions this weekend. Millions. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (20:50.308)
monetize.
Teri (20:54.171)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (21:05.533)
kind of nuts like about talking about how she made two songs or something like that's that's interesting interesting yeah
Vanessa (21:12.93)
Yeah. Yeah. All right, ladies. Thank you for sharing. So let's get into our topic today. So we're going to be talking about motherhood, like I mentioned. I think a good place to kind of start with this is that initial expectation of women becoming mothers. Like there is this expectation that that's what women will do, should do, however you want to word it. So let's start there. I do have several friends of mine, good friends of mine, acquaintances.
Wilhelmina (21:13.038)
if they're Taylor.
Vanessa (21:40.623)
who are married and they do not have children. Some of them, because they've made that choice, they've made that very intentional choice, some people that I know who don't have children were kind of in a situation where it just never happened and they didn't feel the need to go make something happen. And then I also know people who have tried very, very hard to have children and they have not been able to. So think there's a wide range of why people do not have children.
So what are your thoughts on this expectation that women should become mothers?
Teri (22:12.463)
And I think it's, I will also say it's a very heteronormative expectation. If I think about lesbian couples that I'm friends with and know and have in my orbit that the lengths that they have to go to in order to have children are significantly different than what heterosexual couples do. So I think, but I also think their desire to have kids is probably also there. So I think that, you know, it's, it's multi-layered, but I think that,
there definitely is an expectation in heterosexual couples that women will become mothers at some point, whether it's shortly after you get married. And then there's situations where people aren't married, but decide to go into parenthood together without being married yet or not, you know, just being partnered. But I think it's definitely an expectation as somebody who I did not have my oldest until we were married almost seven years.
and the first couple years we were married, I didn't want to have kids. And it was my husband who wanted to have kids. And I very much was not interested in it and then changed my mind over time. I definitely felt a significant amount of pressure the first couple of years we were married, lots of questions from people, people both close to us, people distant from us. And then enough time went by, we waited long enough to have kids that the question stopped and the pressure.
stopped. think they didn't like the answers, the responses I was giving because I didn't feel like it was much of anybody's business, but our own. But there's definitely, at least me personally firsthand, definitely felt pressure and expectations to have kids.
Wilhelmina (23:37.379)
you
Vanessa (23:51.471)
Yeah. I think that's something that's kind of come into the forefront, just given like the current climate in our country, like this topic has come up. But I think that it's been there and Terry, you're proving that by saying that this is how many years ago that people were asking you those questions. But I know several couples who got married young too, and then decided to wait for an extended period of time before. And they would say people are always asking us when we're going to have kids. People feel that they have the right to ask you that because that is the expectation that you will become a mother.
Teri (23:57.744)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (24:20.14)
And I can just think of myself as a kid. Like, you know, I'll go back and read things. You know, I'll have like a journal that I when I was a kid and I'm like, I'm gonna have to, you know, there's this, even as a young girl, you have this idea in your head already that you're gonna become a mom. And yeah, that's.
Wilhelmina (24:36.672)
I that, I also, we waited seven years and also went through and had a conversation of like, do we want kids? I think the myth that you hit a certain point and like you automatically just want kids and it's an easy decision of like, now I want kids because I know Terry and I, we've talked about this where we basically had to make an F
have a decision of like, we do want kids, we want to have thinking of our Thanksgiving table 20 years from now, that is what we want. We both felt that it was really hard to kind of stop, I don't know, just being like, knowing that we kind of would have to sacrifice so much for to be a parent that that is a hard decision to make. And I think that doesn't come just.
Teri (25:17.391)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (25:35.341)
I think that's hard to give up. And I think that's hard to acknowledge. And I think you feel bad if you're like, not just like, I definitely am ready and I can't wait. I love it. And if you feel that you're like, I think I want this. I don't know. I think that I'd like that to be more of a normalized conversation because I mean, I know most of the people I know who have kids have had those same thoughts of like, I mean, I think I want kids. I think so.
I don't know.
Lauren (26:07.063)
But I think, I think, I was just gonna say to go back to Vanessa's initial question about that expectation, I think the expectation comes from a good place. It's coming from people that couldn't imagine their life without kids. So I don't think it's born out of a like judgmental space, but more of just a, it feels very natural for people to.
Teri (26:16.475)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (26:34.301)
expect that of others when they've gone through that experience. At least that's how I guess, and maybe I'm trying to see the world through like rose colored glasses, but like, you know, like somebody that's like, my gosh, you haven't, I don't know, been to Disney World with your kids yet? Like, I'm like, nope.
Teri (26:52.633)
Yeah.
Lauren (26:56.043)
We haven't, you know, like I don't think it's like a judgment. It's just that they've had that experience and they think it would be a wonderful experience for you to have, right? Like sometimes I do think that the pressure that we feel is, yes, it's out there in the ether and in society, but it's also self-induced.
Teri (27:14.777)
And I would agree with that. The people who asked, maybe the only, mean, I don't know for sure. I wasn't keeping track, but it seemed to me the majority of the people asking were parents themselves. you know, it's not your 18 year old niece or whatever, or coworkers who don't have kids asking if you're going to have kids. It is usually coming from people who've had that experience and are very curious. But then when you, if you do become a parent and you have a kid, you'll have
Lauren (27:26.859)
Yeah.
Lauren (27:35.776)
Yeah.
Teri (27:44.572)
I remember having my baby, I think Danny was like three months old and people start asking if you're gonna have a second. And then once you have a second, they ask if you're gonna have a third. And it's just, know, do you think you'll have more? Do you think you'll keep trying? Do you wanna go for a girl? Do you wanna da-da-da? It just never, it just never, it just keeps going.
Lauren (27:48.247)
So, yeah.
Wilhelmina (27:49.666)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (27:53.069)
Yeah.
Vanessa (28:00.663)
Yeah. I mean, I agree that probably most people are coming from like a good place, but I don't think that I think there are people in this world who think that like every woman should have a baby. I mean, that's true. And if you don't, then there's something inherently wrong with you if you don't. So like, it's one thing to be like, asking in a kind way. But I do think that there are people who think that that's what women that you're meant. Yeah, that there's something there must be something wrong with you if you don't want to have a child. And that I don't I don't agree with. I think there's a lot of reasons why people choose not to have children.
Teri (28:18.127)
You're missing out.
Vanessa (28:29.742)
And I think it's OK. going to what you're saying, Terry, about people saying, hey, where's the next one coming? I only have one child. And I got that a lot. Now that she's older, I think people stop asking because I think they realize, like, I mean, my kids are however old. The shop is closed. But that was a forever question that I got from people. And I would get it from strangers, too. And while I didn't feel offended by it because I know why I have one child, I f----
Teri (28:44.345)
The shop is closed. Right.
Teri (28:50.999)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (28:59.618)
think that that is a personal question. And I don't think that people should be feeling, like, unless it's your family, like that's a different story, but like strangers, like I remember being on elevator once, like I was at a funeral and this couple's like, when are you having your next one? And, you know, I just kind of smiled and was like, you know, do I sit here and tell this woman like, well, I had to go through IVF to have my child, like, like, do I really have this conversation with a stranger?
Lauren (29:22.273)
Wow
Vanessa (29:26.22)
You know, and when I would sometimes be like, you know, fuck it, I'm going to say it like, well, had to, you know, then people would get so like alarmed by the fact that I would say this. And I wasn't saying it like it's true. Like it's true. Like what am I supposed say? So it's yeah, I feel like as a mother of one, I've got that a ton and I don't I get it less now. And that's another thing. I know lots of people who have won and for so many different reasons. Like some have been from the get go. I'm only having one and I'm not having any more. Some like me.
thought they would have more and they just didn't, right? There's so many reasons why people choose not to have kids or choose to have one or two or three or 12, you know, there's a, it runs the gamut of why people make these choices.
Teri (30:06.299)
It's such a personal thing. Yeah, like I never ask couples now. But that came from my right. So I had two miscarriages consecutively before I had Danny back to back. And I remember we were trying for him and it was my third pregnancy. And I was like, OK, so this may or may not happen. But in that time duration, people were, of course, asking, who are you guys trying to get have kids? And I had reached a point, especially if it was in a larger social setting, like a wedding or at work. And I would say.
Wilhelmina (30:07.256)
think there are-
Wilhelmina (30:11.064)
No, this is what I was gonna say.
Teri (30:35.181)
actually, I had a miscarriage, you know, that sort of shuts people up right away. And you never know what other people are going through. And in the grand scheme of fertility, we have things very easy. So then I had Danny, no problems. Then I had Tommy. But that's not always the case. And there is such a wide gamut that people can experience. You don't know if you're going up to a couple who seems young and they don't have kids yet and you're
Wilhelmina (30:39.224)
It does.
Lauren (30:39.408)
Right.
Wilhelmina (30:43.938)
Yes.
Teri (31:02.469)
being curious and kind and you think best of intentions, but you're really just trying to satisfy your own curiosity, asking them a very personal intrusive question that really does come back to health. What if somebody has a history of radiation or cancer treatment or endometriosis or has had multiple losses? mean, you just don't even know the can of worms that you could be opening for somebody when you ask them such a personal question.
Wilhelmina (31:29.006)
Terry, I was going to say the exact same thing. do think it is, it's one of those questions similar to my in-laws love asking my kids like, so how's school going? know, like, so, you're married. Okay. So are you guys have, right.
Teri (31:45.499)
the most exciting question in the world for kids.
Lauren (31:48.651)
Yeah.
Vanessa (31:48.654)
you
Wilhelmina (31:50.479)
And my mom loves to ask people when she starts to talk to them, she will say, tell me about your parents. Tell me about your relationship with your parents. And I know why my mom asks this question because, but I have told my mom, I'm like, mom, you know that as a therapist,
People have very complicated relationships with their parents sometimes. Heavy question. You are asking what you think is like, you want to talk about your mom and dad because of your history, but not everyone wants to talk about that. So I've kind of joked with her. I'm like, mommy, you need to stop asking that question because it's a very potentially loaded question. Same thing here. Like, when are you having kids? Are you going to have kids? Are you going to have another? All of these, it's sort of like,
Lauren (32:15.543)
Heavy question.
Teri (32:16.987)
That's a heavy question. Yes.
Teri (32:35.237)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (32:41.856)
If you're close enough to ask, I sometimes, I know someone and I'm like, maybe not they're not like they're kind of a fringe friend, I'll be like, if it comes up, I'll sort of be like, hey, and I'll just be like, and you may not want to talk about it. And I get that, you know, I will cloak it in sort of like, I know that this is not just a simple question. So there may not be a simple answer. You may not want to talk about it, but it is not like, how's the weather? Are you having kids? It's not a question.
Teri (33:01.541)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (33:09.263)
Are you taking any fun trips anytime? There's a reason why, there is a reason why as time goes on, I have come to realize that people asking about upcoming trips or either it seems like a very common topic is take any good vacations lately, have any fun trips coming up? That is such a, it's a bit of a socioeconomically biased question. But that being said, I noticed that that has become a very common topic when you are in adult.
Vanessa (33:09.56)
Yeah.
Lauren (33:10.335)
You
Wilhelmina (33:12.14)
Yes!
Wilhelmina (33:27.415)
It is.
Lauren (33:31.617)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (33:37.397)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (33:38.573)
social gatherings because it's pretty neutral when you can ask people about a vacation.
Vanessa (33:39.608)
social settings.
Wilhelmina (33:42.656)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (33:44.375)
All right, it's like the weather.
Teri (33:45.423)
Yes. Yes.
What about, yeah, what were you gonna Vanessa?
Vanessa (33:48.943)
So the other part of, go ahead. I was just gonna say the other part of motherhood that we were talking about is once you're a mom, there's also a lot of pressure there, right? To do the right things for your child. When they do things, it's like, is this a reflection of my parenting, right? And then when we take our time away from our kids, that we are enjoying our time, does that make us bad parents? That we like those moments when we're not with them. So there's a lot there.
Wilhelmina (34:16.034)
Yes, and I sent you guys an Instagram post earlier this summer, I think. And it was one of the mom influencers. She does a lot of funny videos. She's the one that always ends it with like, get yourself a snack, you know, and she's, yeah, she's pretty real. So she had, she had a, yes, that's it. Thank you. I should have texted you earlier because I was actually trying to find the post and I'm like, get yourself a snack, mom.
Vanessa (34:30.872)
yeah. my gosh, totally know what you're talking about.
Teri (34:31.141)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (34:32.747)
Yeah
Teri (34:34.853)
Big time adulting.
Lauren (34:39.285)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ha!
Wilhelmina (34:44.334)
So she had a post this summer and she talked about getting away on a vacation with her husband. And it was a longer trip. I think it was like a full week. And it was the first time they'd been away in. She mentions it, but it's clearly like, I don't know if it had been since they had kids, but she had a kid with like a health issue, think leukemia. So they'd not had a lot of trips yet.
Vanessa (34:46.168)
you
Lauren (35:11.478)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (35:13.388)
So she finally, after all of this time, like things were good. They were able to take this trip and she expected to like miss her kids right away. And people were kind of like, I bet it's gonna be so hard. And she basically was like, it was amazing. And guess what? She was like, two days in, I didn't miss my kids. Three days in, I didn't miss my kids. She basically said like, by the very last day.
I think it was. She was like, I was excited to like see them again and kind of reenter that life. But she said, I don't even think I would have felt that if it hadn't been this long. She was like, if it had been a three day trip, a four day trip, she's like, I didn't feel any inkling of that until the end. She's like, I knew they were safe. We were checking in. wasn't like, but she said, I was enjoying finding myself and of who I was before having kids.
Teri (35:54.138)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (36:11.382)
I was enjoying spending time with my husband, like as we did before we had kids. And it was like reintroducing myself to a person that I used to like be all the time and I actually used to like kind of like. And so she was sort of like, let's talk about this dialogue that moms should feel bad if they do this and they miss their kids or they don't take trips because they feel like they're going to be bad moms. And
And of course we just came back from a trip. So anyway, what are your thoughts on that guys?
Teri (36:46.891)
I think it goes back to us as a society saying if you're not ever present and if you don't do everything the exact right way, especially as a mom, as a mother, this is pertaining to mothers, you will F up your kids. Like you will just totally mess your kids up. It makes me think all the way back to when they thought refrigerator mothers caused autism. I mean, I remember learning that in undergrad and they're like, well, obviously these kids with autistic
Vanessa (36:47.168)
I completely agree.
Wilhelmina (37:01.496)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (37:02.571)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (37:11.883)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (37:11.919)
yes! Yes!
Teri (37:16.379)
presentations, it must be the mom's fault because they're the primary parent.
Lauren (37:22.871)
So I wanted to, exactly what you're saying, Terry, I wanted to understand when we brought this topic up, I was like, where is this coming from? This idea that like you're an awful person if, like you're an awful parent if. Are you guys familiar with the term intensive parenting? So it's interesting, we've heard it, like probably in our world, we've heard it maybe more, but intensive parenting, like as a term was coined in the late 90s.
Teri (37:34.191)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (37:39.323)
Hmm.
Lauren (37:52.248)
by Sharon Hayes, I wrote it down. Sharon Hayes wrote a book called The Cultural Contradictions of Mothering, which I just like love the name of the book. I've not read the book, but I was like, what a good title. And it was this idea that they were starting to see a shift between the middle and the upper class and the upper class's ability to access things like strong college education. So like just really simply, they were starting to this growing gap. And so the middle class looking for a way to sort of get their kids back
Wilhelmina (37:58.959)
Mm, I did too.
Lauren (38:22.003)
up to that same level. so this idea of like, so now of course, we've in the psychology world, there's been a lot of research on intensive parenting. It's quite a common approach to parenting in Japan. But the idea behind it is there's like this deep commitment to your child and their emotional, you know, their emotional upbringing, there's time, there's money, there's like, it's highly intensive, expensive.
But the idea like behind all of it is that it falls more on the mother than the father. And I thought that was, I'm like high investment on the kids, like really, really high levels of scheduling and emotional and physical stimulation and things like that. And there's been some great things that have come out of it. One of the things that I read was that gross motor skills have improved in young children because parents are like mothers are.
Wilhelmina (38:56.14)
Of course it does.
Teri (38:57.401)
Not a lot of vacations to happen in when you're in intensive parenting.
Vanessa (39:00.63)
Thank
Lauren (39:19.145)
overwhelmingly mothers, that's just what the research is, are signing their children up for structured physical activities at very young ages. We've had those kinds of conversations and there's a lot of problems with this too, obviously. But that's one of the findings that's positive, positive in quotes. But the findings that are negative, like child anxiety, parent anxiety, yeah.
Teri (39:30.139)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (39:41.784)
Yeah, I was like, what's, how's the mom's mental health? I'd like to know that. How is her?
Vanessa (39:41.924)
yeah.
Teri (39:45.179)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (39:45.367)
Yeah.
Lauren (39:45.41)
Correct. Parental stress levels. Like, so I just, thought it was interesting, like, okay, where did this come from? Like, why are we all feeling this way and this pressure? Has this always been this way? And I think there's always an iteration of something. So Terry mentioned the refrigerator mom, like before we understood what we understand now. But yeah, it's not that old as a concept. It was born out of a good place, right? These middle-class mothers looking to get their children
Vanessa (39:55.736)
pressure.
Teri (40:03.897)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (40:09.101)
No, 90s.
Lauren (40:15.135)
the best of the best, but it's resulted in all of us feeling a little nutty.
Teri (40:15.439)
The edge, the edge.
Teri (40:19.801)
And then we combine that. Sometimes I hear the phrase child led in front of it. So you'll hear child led intensive parenting as a parenting style. So very involved, very hands on, very intrusive, but also yes. Yes. Or they just don't want to do that. So when they feel like doing that activity, then I'll sign them up. Or when they feel like doing the project and they can start it.
Lauren (40:25.079)
Mmm, 100 % yes.
Wilhelmina (40:25.614)
Mmm.
Vanessa (40:26.25)
yeah.
Vanessa (40:30.382)
You
Wilhelmina (40:31.63)
come to it.
Lauren (40:33.909)
The child's needs are more important.
Vanessa (40:35.742)
than mine. Yes, we all know that that is not correct.
Lauren (40:39.563)
not healthy.
Lauren (40:49.207)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (40:49.807)
you know, that children have all this life experience to draw upon. they're going to, you know, know when to start their school project or decide which activities when they don't even know what's out there and available, but they'll let you know when they're ready to do something. And I think it makes it really difficult because parenting is not a one size fits all. And one thing that I talk about a lot when I have given talks at schools,
Lauren (40:58.583)
Huh?
Teri (41:14.809)
I have this talk I've given for pediatricians offices in schools about understanding your child's temperament. And temperament is related to personality, but temperament is what your child's natural disposition is, how they engage with the world, how they interact. And a lot of times we don't have a good temperament environment fit. Meaning parenting, the way you're parenting your child doesn't fit their temperament. Parents tend to parent the child they think they have.
Lauren (41:20.78)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (41:34.305)
Right.
Wilhelmina (41:34.37)
Mm-mm.
Teri (41:43.386)
or parent the child they would like to have, yes, or they want, as opposed to parenting the child they actually have in front of them, which takes a lot of raw, realistic approaches to being able to see your child good, bad, and ugly, and yourself good, bad, and ugly, and is my child a slow to warm? Okay, I need to understand that, and I need to parent this child that I have.
Lauren (41:44.597)
or they want.
Wilhelmina (42:03.534)
.
Lauren (42:07.959)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (42:11.899)
as opposed to trying to force their temperament to be different with the environment that I've created.
Wilhelmina (42:17.89)
us.
Lauren (42:17.963)
Right, and that intensive parenting would take none of that into account. Right, so it creates this stress that you're not even aware you're putting upon yourself to put this child in this setting, this environment and these skills and these activities or whatever that they might not be fit for based on their temperament. And ultimately, then it just, it puts so much more pressure on the parent and namely in this sort of this world, the mother.
Wilhelmina (42:20.62)
No, no.
Lauren (42:47.895)
to have this perfect child and when they're not, I think we all feel the, you know, effects of it. Yeah.
Vanessa (42:56.856)
The effects of that. Well, I think.
Wilhelmina (42:58.818)
And it reminds me of like fair, like we don't do fair or we don't do even. We make sure your needs are met in terms of like with the parenting style. It's not fair. And this comes up a lot with my two kiddos where they, you know, we say something different to them or we give them a different privilege or we have a different kind of like consequence for something. And that we hear that a lot. I
Lauren (43:07.447)
It's not fair.
Wilhelmina (43:27.746)
always use the Dr. Becky phrase, like, we make sure each of your needs are met kind of thing. And that's the same way with like this parenting. Like you can't just parent both kids the same. Like you have to actually say, what's going to motivate my kid? What's going to help my kid? What's gonna hurt my kid? Both my kids are, very different kids. And I can't, I do struggle because I do have to kind of parent them differently.
And it's not easy.
Teri (43:59.482)
And you have to switch. Yeah.
Vanessa (44:00.275)
I that part of the difficulty with mom is what we're talking about, that you're figuring out how to parent your child. And then you're also managing your own stuff that's not related to your children, like your parents, your siblings, whatever family dynamics you have outside of your immediate family and a job, whatever you're going with your job. So it's all of these things that you're balancing that impact you as a mother. I mean, you can't separate these things apart.
Wilhelmina (44:11.266)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (44:29.686)
You can't, that, all these things are taking up part of your time, your effort, your mental load. I mean, you can't. And so it makes motherhood even more challenging when you have, the more you have to kind of balance. And I think one of the reasons why women are feeling so much pressure is that we're balancing a lot. There's a lot of things that we're balancing at the same time and you can't separate the mom of.
Wilhelmina (44:50.168)
Yes.
Lauren (44:50.967)
Yeah.
Vanessa (44:56.194)
part of you from all these other things because they all kind of interplay with each other. And so it can feel like a lot.
Wilhelmina (45:02.286)
Well, and I think that that maternal instinct, I actually listened to a Dr. Becky podcast just recently, and she was talking about the myth of the maternal instinct. And she was saying, one, she was saying, how often do you hear paternal instinct? You hear maternal instinct all of the time, you know, don't hear paternal instinct. And she said that, do mothers have an instinct for their children? Sure. probably it's like, just like anything else, you get to know your
and you're gonna be able to differentiate that cry and things like that. But we far overestimate the idea that we give birth or have a child and then we know what the fuck to do with them. And we actually do not. And so then we're like, how else? And I loved that Dr. Becky, she did like a little mini podcast and she basically was like, can we just normalize like...
Vanessa (45:43.016)
This is cool.
Lauren (45:43.416)
Right.
Teri (45:43.961)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Wilhelmina (45:55.619)
We have to ask for how to, we have to figure out how to do this. We have to ask our friends, we have to read books, we have to like go to the experts because this, yes, Google. I mean, how often do we text each other? Like, okay, Griffin just did this. What do I do? What do I do? Help.
Teri (46:02.395)
Google. Yep.
Vanessa (46:09.208)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like even a psychologist, we struggle.
Teri (46:09.787)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (46:11.649)
Can I, but can I say yes, for sure. Because I always say this to people, like, just because I can give you advice on your child doesn't mean I can do it with my own because emotions are involved and right. But what I was gonna say is to your point, Wilhelmina, yes, we reach out, but, or as a result, I'm overwhelmed by the amount of information, I.
Vanessa (46:20.607)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (46:21.807)
Yeah, spend them. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Wilhelmina (46:33.634)
Not enough?
Lauren (46:38.519)
I know myself well enough to know that my reach outs include my family and friends. And when I start like getting myself too deep into the internet folks and even the experts, can get over... Like it really can get overwhelming and then talk about adding pressure. Because if we have all this information that's available to us, then we should be the perfect mother, right? Like it does feel like, and then I just want to shut it all out.
Vanessa (46:47.586)
Mm. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (46:49.688)
ChachyBT, tell me what to do.
Teri (46:52.752)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (46:57.57)
Right, yeah, yeah.
Teri (47:03.163)
And yes.
Lauren (47:07.807)
and be like, nope, I'm, you know, I will interact with my mother, my sisters, my friends. I don't want anybody else's information because you do reach a point of sort of over saturation of how to be the best parent, which I, again, I think this intensive parenting, it's just like all around us, this idea that like, because we have so much access to podcasts and
books and Instagram moms and Instagram psychologists and all those kinds of things that we should know exactly what to do with our child in that moment all the time, every day, all day. And it becomes too much.
Teri (47:42.3)
This might not be popular. I don't know what you guys think of this. There was a quote, a phrase that I heard when my oldest was a baby. It's something you probably have heard this. It's something along the lines of this is for working mothers. You have to work like you're not a mom. So when you're at work, you have to work like you're not a mom. And when you're a mom, you have to parent like you don't have a job. And I remember hearing that and it was a light bulb because I was I really had a rough transition back to my work environment after I had Danny for a variety of reasons.
Lauren (47:57.067)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (48:03.246)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (48:12.115)
And I remember thinking like, that is so true. When I'm at work, part of it was my boss at the time was not a parent herself. And there was the expectation that I would be at work like I would, like I didn't have a baby at home. And then when I was with him, I was, it's like, I have to pretend I have a job. I like, I just need to focus on him. He needs to be fed. can't be checking emails. I can't be whatever, but something that I have done is like, when I'm at work, I'm at work.
Lauren (48:29.889)
price.
Teri (48:39.349)
I, if I have a few things I have to do, I really do try to compartmentalize and it has helped me be effective. like I am at work, this is what I'm doing. This is my task at hand, or I'm writing a report. I'm with this kid right now, or I'm training my students at rush. We're in supervision. And then when I'm at home, I'm really trying to be like, okay, where, where my, be where my feet are. Basically. I really just try to like be where my feet are. So if I'm at work, I am at work. And if those intrusive thoughts start to bubble in about, they have to do this, this, this, got to email the teacher back. I got to do this.
Lauren (48:59.979)
Mm-hmm. Be where you are.
Teri (49:09.275)
Okay, I will deal with that when it's time to deal with that. Where are my feet right now? So whether that's good or bad for me, and I'm not an expert at it and I don't do it 100 % of the time, but I do try to compartmentalize. And actually, I didn't like that, but I've actually tried to live that a little bit. Like when I'm at work, I'm not a mom, and when I'm moming, I'm not at work. But.
Lauren (49:21.631)
It's helpful.
Lauren (49:25.719)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (49:28.396)
Yeah, I think you can apply that to, know, so we go on our trips, you know, once a year. And I know that outside of our girlfriend trips, like we all take trips, like with our significant others, other friend groups, right. And it's not that I, I kind of do that when I'm on my trip. I'm like, this is me time right now. And I think that there's so much benefit.
Teri (49:43.715)
Yes. Although we all do have to work, all of our work always bleeds in. But besides that, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (49:48.555)
Yeah, I mean it does. but you try it. I think the majority of the time that I'm there, I'm trying to really be mindful of like, this is my downtime. Like if I'm with my girlfriends, like this is my friend time. I really try to do that. And I think it's so important to have those times where you do just let it all, yeah, like, yeah, like you disconnect, not, you know, like, yes, disconnect for lack of better word, but where you are.
Wilhelmina (49:53.944)
Yes.
Teri (49:57.061)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (50:03.502)
Disconnect? like, maybe not disconnect, but.
Lauren (50:04.949)
Yeah.
Teri (50:06.351)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (50:14.124)
you know, in that moment, really enjoying your friends or with your husband on that trip, really enjoying that because I think that makes you a better mom. I think that having that time where you can just, you know, relax, you know, be with your friends, enjoy your friends or be with your husband, enjoy your husband or whoever you're with on whatever trip or not even a trip, going out to dinner, it could be a night out. Yeah, like dinner with your girlfriends. Like, I just think that those moments are so good for your soul. And I know whenever I come back from
Teri (50:21.103)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (50:22.03)
100 % it does.
Lauren (50:22.123)
For sure.
Lauren (50:33.983)
It can be a night out, yep.
Wilhelmina (50:34.83)
you
Vanessa (50:41.718)
my trips, yes, I miss my daughter, but I feel so like, I feel so like ready to tackle like, let's do this. Like, let's, you know, get back into being a mom and doing all the things. And I just think that those breaks are just so important for your soul. Like if you want to, you know, and again, if you can't go on trips, I get that. Like, again, that hour you take to go watch your show by yourself, right? Or, you know, that night out, you go and have dinner with your girlfriend or your husband. I think that those moments are.
Teri (50:48.826)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (50:57.999)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (51:05.333)
Yeah, yeah.
Teri (51:05.797)
Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (51:11.628)
so important, so beneficial to being the best in your role as mom. I really do.
Teri (51:16.698)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (51:17.836)
I think it has, like, I think every mom has to think and really do some work to be like, what charges my battery? And then, and like, what charges it a little bit? What charges it fully? And then pay attention to that and make sure you're making time for those things. Because I definitely go through periods of time where I'm literally like, okay, I've got one minute.
Vanessa (51:27.616)
Yeah, like whatever is for you.
Teri (51:28.025)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (51:45.495)
I'm charging the battery for a second. This will get me to the next thing I need to do. And that's fine for a little bit, but it is not fine long-term. I mean, I feel like COVID is a good example of how like none of us were getting battery charging. Everything was like, yeah. And I do think, and I can feel it. I feel it on our girls' trips. I felt it this weekend where the
Teri (51:58.684)
everything just collapsed and melded. Yeah. Yeah. It's like,
Lauren (52:04.521)
melting candles all of us.
Vanessa (52:06.338)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (52:14.786)
The battery that is just like who I am as a person separate from a mom just starts to fill up. have different ideas and thoughts and feelings and it makes me a better mom when I come home because I am not just a mom. I'm all of these other aspects, but if I'm only filling the mom tank because I have to, I sort of feel a little bit wilted and just not myself.
And so I think that it is figuring out what makes you feel full and whole and charged and acknowledging that for most people, it isn't just 100 % parenting. Like you're gonna have to find these other things out there that's to continue to be a full, feel like a full human. Mm-hmm, yes.
Teri (53:05.147)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (53:05.249)
really understanding your values.
Vanessa (53:06.818)
Yeah. Yeah, remember during, speaking of COVID, remember we used to do the happy hours during COVID? We would get on, there was, I forgot what, there was some, I don't know what system we used for that. I can't remember what that was. you know, it was some party. I can't remember what it was. We used some app, but anyway, we used to do our happy hours because we were like, we need to like reconnect with our friends because we're not seeing anybody. And that was how we did it then. So yeah, being mindful. mean, even just like,
Wilhelmina (53:11.286)
Yes, yes.
Teri (53:11.611)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (53:12.054)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (53:19.02)
Was it Zoom?
Teri (53:19.749)
Probably Zoom.
Wilhelmina (53:22.785)
yeah.
Lauren (53:27.094)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Vanessa (53:34.734)
For some people, it could be going to read your book for an hour. way, yeah, yeah, yes. Whatever, yeah, so I think that's that important to highlight. It is whatever that you need to, yeah, you can be small and it's whatever you find, I think that's a good point, Wilhelmina, that helps recharge your battery so that you can come back and be like, okay, I got this.
Wilhelmina (53:36.984)
Yes. Yes.
Lauren (53:37.281)
going to say going for a walk by myself without my phone, like with nothing. It feels really good. It can be small.
Teri (53:41.093)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (53:55.171)
And I, and for me at least, what recharges my battery does seem to shift. It's not what recharged my battery in my twenties and my thirties is definitely not what's recharging it in my forties. And it, and there's still some continuity, like reading, getting into a really good book, like a really good fiction book. Like I don't see that ever not recharging my battery, but I do think the way I spend my free time, who I'm spending it with, what I'm doing, where my phone is, like Lauren said, I do think it.
Lauren (53:56.724)
It's not easy.
Wilhelmina (54:01.688)
Yes, yes.
Vanessa (54:02.113)
for sure. Of course.
Yeah.
Vanessa (54:11.958)
Yeah, yeah.
Lauren (54:15.543)
Teri (54:24.869)
changes and shifts as you go through different life phases.
Lauren (54:27.219)
sure needs to.
Vanessa (54:29.058)
Absolutely.
Wilhelmina (54:29.888)
even the type of book or like the type of shows. Like sometimes I'm like, I can't do heavy. I need a little romance or, or like, I am so bored of like just easy fiction. want like a hearty read that's going to like make me think. So like even within the context of like the things that you like, it is nuanced and you have to be aware of like what you're, what feels good in the moment or what feels good at that time. Yeah.
Teri (54:33.413)
Yeah.
Vanessa (54:59.695)
All right, ladies, that was a good talk. Motherhood, it's wonderful, yet so complex. All right, everyone, thank you for joining us. Please join us next time on The Shrinkdown.
Teri (55:02.457)
Yay!
Lauren (55:04.767)
Not easy. Yes.