The Game

Legendary trial attorney Joe Cotchett joins The Game for a wide-ranging, no-holds-barred conversation on law, politics, and the future of the country.
Cotchett breaks down his firm’s landmark securities fraud verdict against Elon Musk (about $2.5 billion in damages), explains why it’s a rare case of driving stock prices down, and what it means moving forward.
The conversation then turns to the darker side of AI and social media, including rising teen suicide rates, scams targeting seniors, and the legal battle over Section 230.
From California politics and Gavin Newsom’s future to the 2028 presidential race, Cotchett shares insider perspectives on candidates, the Democratic bench, and what it will take to win back power.
He also reflects on decades of landmark civil rights cases, why he never ran for office, and the legacy he hopes to leave behind.
🔥 A powerful conversation about justice, power, and the fight for democracy.
Chapters
  • (00:00) - Intro & Joe Cotchett joins the show
  • (00:52) - Lawsuit vs Elon Musk explained
  • (02:39) - Why this securities fraud case is historic
  • (05:56) - What Musk was like on the stand
  • (07:09) - The social media & AI addiction lawsuits
  • (08:25) - AI scams, deepfakes, and rising dangers
  • (09:45) - Section 230 and the legal battle ahead
  • (11:17) - Shocking real-world case involving online deception
  • (13:14) - Why Cotchett never ran for office
  • (14:53) - Civil rights cases that shaped his career
  • (18:15) - California governor race breakdown
  • (21:27) - State crises: fires, homelessness, and policy failures
  • (25:38) - Billionaire tax debate
  • (27:17) - What Democrats are getting wrong
  • (28:38) - Gavin Newsom’s presidential potential
  • (30:58) - 2028 contenders & “sleepers” to watch
  • (35:59) - Did Democrats miss their chance in 2024?
  • (39:59) - Midterm outlook: can Democrats take the House & Senate?
  • (41:18) - DOJ, Trump, and the state of democracy
  • (43:43) - Should the Supreme Court be expanded?
  • (45:27) - What keeps Cotchett going
  • (47:33) - His legacy and message to young lawyers
  • (49:06) - Bullpen: Mark and Bob on Cotchett, the governor’s debate and the Iran war
  • (58:46) - Closing thoughts
The Game is hosted by Mark Simon and Bob Marks and produced by Frank Bravo, BravoITC.com and YourTechMakeover.com. Watch or listen to every episode at TheGamePeninsula.com.

Creators and Guests

BM
Host
Bob Marks
Bob Marks is a longtime Peninsula television producer and executive. He led Peninsula TV (Pen-TV), San Mateo County's public affairs cable channel, and was executive producer of its high school quiz show, Quiz Kids. He has co-hosted public affairs programs with Mark Simon since at least 1999, and the two revived The Game as a podcast and video show in 2024.
Host
Mark Simon
Mark Simon is a veteran Peninsula journalist who writes a weekly column on local news and politics for the San Mateo Daily Journal. He was a political reporter and columnist for the Redwood City Tribune and the Peninsula Times Tribune, then a daily columnist and political writer for the San Francisco Chronicle. He later spent about 15 years at SamTrans and Caltrain, retiring in 2017 as chief of staff. He lives in San Carlos.
Producer
Frank Bravo
Frank Bravo is the principal of Bravo IT Consulting in San Carlos, California, and the host of the Your Tech Makeover podcast. He is a technologist, web developer and technology speaker who has spent decades helping non-technical people get more out of their devices and online life.

What is The Game?

Mark Simon and Bob Marks revive their long-running cable TV show The Game, where they interview local leaders and talk widely about politics, business and sports.

Produced by Frank Bravo, BravoITC.com

00;00;25;07 - 00;00;27;06
Speaker 1
Welcome to the game. I'm Mark Simon.

00;00;27;10 - 00;00;28;16
Speaker 2
And I'm Bob marks.

00;00;28;16 - 00;00;45;26
Speaker 1
And we are delighted to be joined today by Joe Cockett, widely considered one of the most successful plaintiff's attorneys in the country, a man with a burning fire for justice and a major player in Democratic politics nationally and in California for decades. Joe, thank you so much for joining us today.

00;00;45;29 - 00;00;48;12
Speaker 3
It's an honor to be here with all of you.

00;00;48;14 - 00;00;50;11
Speaker 1
Well, that's nobody's ever said that before.

00;00;50;12 - 00;00;52;06
Speaker 2
Thank you.

00;00;52;08 - 00;01;10;26
Speaker 1
Joe. Your firm just won a major lawsuit against Elon Musk. Essentially alleging correctly, as far as a jury is concerned, that he said things and did things to drive down the price of the Twitter stock just before he bought it. Tell us a little bit about that lawsuit and its significance.

00;01;10;29 - 00;01;43;17
Speaker 3
Well, it was very interesting because what we usually see and what we're seeing out there more and more in the marketplace in terms of fraud, corporate fraud is people are ballyhoo being a certain stock to drive the price up. Are you with me? Yeah. In this case, it was alleged that Elon Musk somebody personal friend here. Drove the price of Twitter down after he signed an agreement to buy it for, I think it was 44 billion.

00;01;43;19 - 00;02;12;22
Speaker 3
What he wanted to do, of course, as the jury found, was drive the price down to where he could then renegotiate a better price. Many, many what people forget is that what's involved? What was involved in that case will pension funds. Business investments, private citizens. But largely pension funds are the people that are investing today. And he drove that price way down in one day.

00;02;12;22 - 00;02;39;03
Speaker 3
I think it dropped something like 12% on a day when he said he wasn't going to buy it. We had a couple of little it's a class action. So what we did was we brought it on behalf of two, three, four individuals that represent teachers pension funds, police pension funds. Nurses, firemen right down the line, if you know what I'm talking about.

00;02;39;05 - 00;03;07;17
Speaker 3
And the jury after a ten day trial found that Elon was liable for securities fraud. Now, the reason I say that why that's so important securities fraud is because there's probably the first time he's ever been held liable. It's probably one of the few, if only cases where a case has been brought on the basis of someone driving the price down.

00;03;07;18 - 00;03;08;12
Speaker 3
Are you with me?

00;03;08;17 - 00;03;09;09
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;03;09;11 - 00;03;38;03
Speaker 3
Versus driving the price up. And the jury found unanimously that he was liable for that. And they found, based on the damages awarded for the losses on each day, about $2.5 billion. And with interest going forward, interest pre verdict, it would be about $3 billion. Now I don't mean to be so brash, but you know what that is to Elon Musk.

00;03;38;09 - 00;03;40;27
Speaker 3
Yeah that's a temple. Yeah that's.

00;03;40;27 - 00;03;41;20
Speaker 2
The temple.

00;03;41;23 - 00;04;07;05
Speaker 3
However however now this is very important. Now a jury has found him liable for securities fraud. So what does that mean? The richest man in the world, by the way, when he was asked. Are you the richest man in the world on the stand? He kind of looked up at the roof of the ceiling of the courtroom, kind of shook his head, and he said, well, maybe.

00;04;07;05 - 00;04;36;27
Speaker 3
Maybe that's what they say or whatever it was. It was interesting having him understand for a whole day. What was more interesting was the little plaintiffs that we put on, and he had, at any given time, no less than 15 lawyers in the courtroom, nine sitting up at counsel table and maybe 6 or 7 behind the walkway that breaks where visitors sit.

00;04;37;00 - 00;04;55;02
Speaker 3
It's guards. He had press people. He had all his people. Now, back to securities fraud. Now, the fact that he was hit for $2.53 billion, whatever it is, as you know, they say he's worth one around 950 to 1 trillion.

00;04;55;06 - 00;04;55;21
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;04;55;28 - 00;05;21;21
Speaker 3
So you can imagine he wrote a check for that and just walked away. Right. Except for one thing. The case was for securities fraud that's never been brought against him. Now he's got a big problem because he's been found liable for securities fraud, which means each time now, going forward. He's got to report to the SEC that he's been found liable.

00;05;21;21 - 00;05;25;08
Speaker 3
So the appeal is going to be critical.

00;05;25;10 - 00;05;35;14
Speaker 3
He's peeling it to the ninth circuit. This is a case uniquely I don't think the Supreme Court will take because it was based on facts not on law. If you see where I'm going.

00;05;35;18 - 00;05;36;12
Speaker 2
Right.

00;05;36;14 - 00;05;56;09
Speaker 3
So the whole shot comes down to now the Ninth Circuit. The case is very, very significant because as I said before, I don't want to repeat myself. One of the few cases ever brought where somebody is trying to get the stock down, not hype it up. And that's the big difference.

00;05;56;11 - 00;06;05;24
Speaker 1
Well, tell us, since you saw him on the stand and I know your your firm had him in depositions. Give us your sense of the man from what you saw.

00;06;05;26 - 00;06;33;28
Speaker 3
Well, it's very interesting. Yeah. It's hyper. Let me give you one example. He came into the court with the security guards, the likes of which even you, Mark, have never had. He's a guy that. What's he had 13 children. How many wives? I'm not sure. He's a very, very bright guy. He's always taking something. And I don't know what the drug is he takes.

00;06;33;28 - 00;07;01;28
Speaker 3
Perhaps you've read it in the papers. He he was very good on the stand. I must say, he tried to present himself as just one of the jury. Which, of course, after a couple of questions, that was not possible. He is a brilliant, brilliant guy who I don't have to tell you. He wants to develop new communities on Mars.

00;07;02;00 - 00;07;04;28
Speaker 3
He comes out of South Africa. You know his background?

00;07;05;05 - 00;07;05;24
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;07;05;27 - 00;07;09;04
Speaker 3
Very, very interesting human being.

00;07;09;06 - 00;07;16;19
Speaker 1
Let's ask about another lawsuit your firms involved in alleging that the internet is addicting or addictive.

00;07;16;21 - 00;07;18;18
Speaker 3
Very definitely. Let me go back to one thing.

00;07;18;25 - 00;07;19;07
Speaker 2
Sure.

00;07;19;14 - 00;07;49;22
Speaker 3
On the Musk case, they're moving for a new trial on the basis that I committed error in my argument. Closing argument to the jury. It'll be very interesting to see what the Court of Appeals does with that now. The next case you were just talking about. Yes. We're taking on, we're taking on people that want to, on social media, take our lives away from our little children.

00;07;49;23 - 00;08;25;24
Speaker 3
You've seen the numbers on the suicide rates of teenagers. These. I don't have to tell you. The social media cases are wild, or they're going to dominate the law over the next five years. It's a battle between independent, corporate American, what they want to do to our society versus in this case, we're representing school boards, school school districts for children.

00;08;25;26 - 00;08;40;27
Speaker 3
You've seen what's happened in the last two cases. One in New Mexico, one in LA. Well, you're going to see a lot more of them, because from what I hear, not only ourselves but others that we going to be after going after grok.

00;08;40;29 - 00;08;43;17
Speaker 2
Have you heard of Rock? Yeah.

00;08;43;20 - 00;08;51;00
Speaker 3
Where they can take and undress you and have you making love to an elephant, if you know what I mean.

00;08;51;03 - 00;08;52;05
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;08;52;07 - 00;09;14;03
Speaker 3
It sounds funny. It's not funny because it's happening. Tragically, with kids, the suicide rate is up. What, about 200% on children 15 to 17 to 18? In the last two years. We're living in a new world that no one on this screen here has ever lived in. If you know what I mean.

00;09;14;09 - 00;09;14;21
Speaker 2
Sure.

00;09;14;27 - 00;09;45;19
Speaker 3
It's. It is beyond the capability of anybody understanding how AI can be used. We have cases coming in, tragically every week on senior citizens that have had their retirements and bank accounts stolen from them using AI. All you have to do is talk. What is it now? Down to about 45 to 50s on your cell phone. And that's up in the clouds.

00;09;45;21 - 00;10;14;14
Speaker 3
And now have your voice. What they can do with photographs. You know what they can do with AI. I'm representing currently Steve Wozniak in a case that's going on, been going on for two, two years now. And the biggest issue facing all of America was a statute that was passed back in the 1980s, of course, called the Communications Act, section 230.

00;10;14;16 - 00;10;44;28
Speaker 3
That gives all your platforms total immunity from anything that's seen on the platform. That's the biggest battle today right. Section 230. And it's sweeping America. Why are we perhaps one of the richest areas in the country? And that's because of what I call Silicon Valley and what they're developing. We all know that. We see that. But back to the point I was making.

00;10;45;00 - 00;11;17;05
Speaker 3
There's a very dark side, very dark side to AI and social media. And if you've got children, you know about it. I've got friends that will not allow their kids to take their cell phones into their rooms at night. Thank God. Schools and now are banning cell phones during classes. I'll close with this on the subject. I had a case set in to me by a Stanford professor that I know quite well.

00;11;17;07 - 00;11;46;17
Speaker 3
A doctor sent in a woman from the Bay area here whose daughter over a cell phone, actually over a laptop while she was in school, by the way, here on the Peninsula, developed a relationship with a very, very nice, very attractive young man, about 17 or 18. She's a high school, local high school student from Arizona. He called it one day and said, Betsy, I'll just make that name up.

00;11;46;17 - 00;12;07;29
Speaker 3
Betsy. How far do you live from Palo Alto? I live, oh my God, John, I'm right next to Palo Alto, you say? Gee, that's great. I'm coming up to see my aunt who's got some medical problems. I want to visit with her. I think I'm staying in a place somewhere in Redwood City. I'll call you when I get in.

00;12;08;00 - 00;12;28;28
Speaker 3
If you're around Saturday, I'll call you. I'm going to take a cab or an Uber or whatever you want. I want to take to the motel. I'll give you a call. You'll pick me up, and we'll go over to my aunt's house. Well, the tragedy is, the woman who came in to see me sat in front of me, and she's in tears telling this story about her daughter.

00;12;29;01 - 00;12;58;12
Speaker 3
The daughter went over to the motel where her nice 18 year old boy that she met over an app was waiting for her. Turned out he was somewhere around 50 years old. He used a burner phone. Raped your seven several times. She today is in a place over in the Walnut Creek area. They're trying to bring her back mentally, if you know what I mean.

00;12;58;14 - 00;12;59;00
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;12;59;04 - 00;13;08;28
Speaker 3
Did they ever catch the eye? Of course not. It was a burner phone. You just. He's gone. What do you do in a situation like that?

00;13;09;01 - 00;13;09;07
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;13;09;08 - 00;13;12;11
Speaker 3
And it's happening every single day of the week.

00;13;12;14 - 00;13;12;26
Speaker 2
I didn't.

00;13;12;26 - 00;13;14;13
Speaker 3
Mean to waste your time with that.

00;13;14;16 - 00;13;29;19
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I. Outside of the courtroom. You've been known to dabble a little bit in politics over the years. I'm curious. I'm curious. When you were younger, did you ever think of running for office? I did.

00;13;29;21 - 00;14;09;14
Speaker 3
Let me put it this way to you. I was asked a couple of times to run for attorney general of California. It's a matter of fact. The Chronicle endorsed me before I had even decided to run. And then, to be brutally candid with you, I thought I could do more work here as a lawyer. At about that time, I had just become president of Trial Lawyers for Public Justice back in D.C., and I was spending a lot of time commuting back and forth during the early 90s over the in the, in the wake of the attorney general run.

00;14;09;16 - 00;14;23;24
Speaker 3
And I didn't run. Have I ever thought about running for the Assembly, the House, the Senate, and put the Senate aside? The Assembly or the Senate? State Senate?

00;14;23;27 - 00;14;53;19
Speaker 3
No, I feel I could do more work. I've always felt I could do more work in a law office here. I started my life right after college, going in the Army. I was in special forces, foolishly made 12 jumps and that's why I had metal knees. Then went to law school. And the minute I got out of law school, I was very, very active in litigation.

00;14;53;21 - 00;15;25;03
Speaker 3
I, in the 80s, got a call from a very dear friend, Mr. Kennedy, when he was a senator and the brother, and went down and represented the woman in the Selma march that was shot by an informant, Clu Klux Klan man. You know what I mean by informant? In those days, the FBI would hire informants to assist them.

00;15;25;05 - 00;15;54;11
Speaker 3
Well, he wanted to show how tough he was, so he blew a woman's brains out. You remember the case, I'm sure. So those were cases I was taking, I took on I got a call from a Catholic priest back in the 80s as well. Who told me about a place called Subic Bay in the Philippines, where there are about 5000 children that were fathered by service members coming home from Vietnam.

00;15;54;14 - 00;16;25;29
Speaker 3
Subic Bay used to be an R&R, rest and rehabilitation spot. Fathered the children. I sued the the government, I was. Believe it or not, at that time I was still in the reserves I had switched to. After jumping out of so many planes, I had switched to the JAG court Judge Advocate General. I took on that case. I sued the Department of Defense then, now the Department of War, then known as the Department of Defense.

00;16;26;02 - 00;16;49;13
Speaker 3
I sued them for children in the Bay. You couldn't get a jury. I got a very nice judge in the Court of Claims in Washington, D.C. he found against me, but he was not a bad guy. He called me into his chambers and said, I, Mr. Cartwright, I appreciate what you've done here. Have you ever thought about going over to Congress?

00;16;49;14 - 00;17;09;19
Speaker 3
He wrote a beautiful opinion. I went over to Congress, and I think I got about 1 million or $2 million now back in the 1980s. Do you know what that built in the Philippines? It built a school. It built a hospital for all of those kids. So, you know, sometimes you take on cases, you know, you can't win.

00;17;09;19 - 00;17;43;27
Speaker 3
By the way, I lost the case against the FBI for that woman that was killed. Because in a case like that, when you sue the government, that's a federal court Claims Act and you can't get a jury. And once again, I drew a judge up in Michigan who found against me. But we were able to change the law on how or the regulations, I should say, on how the FBI hired informants in those days, critically, the FBI, the Klux clan.

00;17;43;29 - 00;18;14;09
Speaker 3
So those are two cases that really drive me. I lost both of them. Drive me to do what I'm doing. I've had, as Mark might tell you, I've had several billion dollar cases. I've been very fortunate in my life. I grew up on this street of little farming community in New York called Brooklyn. So I quickly learned what side of the street you were safe on, if you know what I mean.

00;18;14;12 - 00;18;15;02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;18;15;05 - 00;18;36;03
Speaker 1
Joe, let's shift gears to politics a little bit. Everybody's sort of scratching their heads still over this governor's race. We had a debate this week, and I don't think it pushed anybody in any particular direction. You haven't endorsed in this race, as far as I can tell. Are you inclined towards somebody? Is there somebody you're thinking you might be supporting?

00;18;36;05 - 00;18;59;02
Speaker 3
That's so interesting. You bring that up, Mark, because you said I haven't endorsed. Believe it or not, I want to make a confession. I endorsed Eric Swalwell, who I've known for about 15 years. I knew he was a player, but I thought, tragically, that after he married and what have you, that was all over. Well, it wasn't all over.

00;18;59;02 - 00;19;19;24
Speaker 3
We know that. So my endorsement is gone, if you know what I mean. Yeah. He's out of the race. Now, to answer your question, who do I see as a winner? It's it's a very tough race. I watch the debate as much as I could. By the way, I got cut off last 30 minutes.

00;19;19;27 - 00;19;20;19
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;19;20;22 - 00;19;22;06
Speaker 3
I didn't understand.

00;19;22;08 - 00;19;22;28
Speaker 1
Yeah, well.

00;19;23;00 - 00;19;24;11
Speaker 2
But,

00;19;24;13 - 00;19;34;28
Speaker 3
Nobody wanted to really speak out, with the exception of perhaps Mehan.

00;19;35;01 - 00;20;00;03
Speaker 3
Who is very interesting. He's backed by Silicon Valley. I think he's done a very good job as mayor. But Sarah certainly climbed the line after Swalwell got out. I watch all these ends, ads by Steyer, and they're overwhelming. What has he spent now? Over 120, 150 million?

00;20;00;05 - 00;20;02;11
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;20;02;13 - 00;20;22;23
Speaker 3
And I just I'm not sure he connects with people now, these ads are running against him are very, very interesting, aren't they? On what he is previously invested in. And now he comes back with an ad saying, look, I learned a lot. I'm a new man. I want my wife and I want to give all the money away.

00;20;22;25 - 00;20;47;27
Speaker 3
Etcetera. ET cetera. He's very interesting. We've got some interesting candidates. I think that, the young lady from Orange County is very good, but I'm not sure she's got the experience to run a state as big as California. I'd love to tell you. I knew who was going to be our next governor. I don't think I know.

00;20;48;00 - 00;20;55;10
Speaker 1
So you're like a lot of people. It's a wait and see. Somebody has to emerge, right? And somebody's going to,

00;20;55;13 - 00;21;06;17
Speaker 3
It's so interesting because when you look at the numbers up until 12 dropped out, there was a possibility that we would have two Republicans. Right?

00;21;06;21 - 00;21;07;18
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;21;07;21 - 00;21;12;25
Speaker 3
Well, I think that's gone now. And we're going to have Hilton against a Democrat.

00;21;13;02 - 00;21;13;20
Speaker 2
Right.

00;21;13;28 - 00;21;18;27
Speaker 3
And then we will have a Democratic governor. Of course, I don't think Hilton could do it at all.

00;21;19;00 - 00;21;20;01
Speaker 2
You know.

00;21;20;03 - 00;21;24;04
Speaker 3
The blessing to the Democratic Party, by the way, was Trump endorsing Hilton?

00;21;24;07 - 00;21;25;09
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;21;25;11 - 00;21;27;09
Speaker 1
Yeah, clearly.

00;21;27;12 - 00;21;58;01
Speaker 3
So it will certainly be an interesting race. We're in trouble. I don't have to tell you. And Gavin really had nothing to do with the trouble. He did not start the fires. And the North Bay fire, which took a lot of the Northern California, created a lot of problems up there. And then going down south to the Palisades and the other fire by Pasadena, which.

00;21;58;01 - 00;22;34;24
Speaker 3
Was enormous, that people just don't realize how big that is. I think that took a lot out of what's happened to us here in California, financially, physically, how we move now. There have been some disasters in California that haven't been looked at. That whole train situation over in the Valley, the, you know, in LA, if you go to LA, there are two whole streets tented off for homeless.

00;22;34;25 - 00;22;36;11
Speaker 3
Have you ever. Have you seen that?

00;22;36;14 - 00;22;36;28
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;22;37;02 - 00;22;37;28
Speaker 3
Downtown.

00;22;38;01 - 00;22;39;02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;22;39;04 - 00;22;55;10
Speaker 3
I mean, that's 60,000 on the street. Look up here. We've got real problems. Very significant problems. I'm a very, very big fan of not only a fan of a supporter of Gavin. We'll probably talk about that in a moment.

00;22;55;13 - 00;22;55;25
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;22;55;29 - 00;23;15;07
Speaker 3
But a lot of it was beyond his control. A lot of it started back. I hate to say this under Jerry Brown, when PGE and other utilities just ran wild with no safety. Protections built in. Do you follow what I mean?

00;23;15;10 - 00;23;16;04
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;23;16;06 - 00;23;35;18
Speaker 3
The PUC wasn't looking at fire problems when they should have been, because we had small problems going back over 40 years. And as we advanced electrical lines north of Napa, north of Santa Rosa, up in the Shasta area, you saw what happened?

00;23;35;22 - 00;23;36;10
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;23;36;13 - 00;23;56;07
Speaker 3
She didn't jump on it. So we've got major problems here in the state. And whoever the next governor is, is going to be faced with these problems. And Deven has done a good as good a job as he can do. But it is an overwhelming problem with 40 million people.

00;23;56;10 - 00;23;56;25
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;23;57;01 - 00;24;01;26
Speaker 3
And the streets that we have, I mean.

00;24;01;28 - 00;24;02;19
Speaker 2
I.

00;24;02;21 - 00;24;30;06
Speaker 3
You know, I was asked to become a judge several times. Barbara Boxer called me once and said, Joe, I'd like to nominate you to Bill Clinton. I said, Barbara, I represented it at the time. I would be a total embarrassment to you and President. Clinton if I was appointed. She was shocked. I said she said, why? I said, because if I was a judge, I would rule from my heart and not from the law.

00;24;30;08 - 00;24;54;01
Speaker 3
I wouldn't follow the law. She said, Joe, that's a wild statement. You're my lawyer, etcetera, etcetera. I said, well, that's the way I feel. And to be brutally candid with all of you, I feel very strongly that we have laws now that are protecting people, that we've gone so far. You know, I remember when I was in Special Forces, what we had to do.

00;24;54;03 - 00;25;10;02
Speaker 3
I remember when I was in JAG, what we had to do. Yes, you follow the law, but there are times you have to understand that there are certain laws you just can't or were going to run while. And that's what's happening on our streets. You've been up on Hyde Street in San Francisco recently?

00;25;10;04 - 00;25;10;27
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;25;11;00 - 00;25;31;22
Speaker 3
You know, it's, you take your life in your hands if you walk down the street there. That's not to say our new mayor isn't doing a fabulous job trying to clean it up, but the fact that we allow guns, anyone to have a gun, pick up the paper every single day and look at the shootings. It's beyond comprehension.

00;25;31;24 - 00;25;37;26
Speaker 3
You have a gun in England, and you're facing four years in jail.

00;25;37;29 - 00;25;38;20
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;25;38;23 - 00;25;49;13
Speaker 2
We, have another issue that's coming up here in California. November. It's a billionaires tax. How do you feel about that tax?

00;25;49;15 - 00;26;10;27
Speaker 3
Well, that's so interesting. You mentioned that I personally am in favor of it, but the fact of the matter is, we do know it's causing a lot of people to move out of state. And let me tell you that moving out of state. Nonsense. I don't want to go into names, but I do know of one chap that went up because of just taxes.

00;26;11;00 - 00;26;16;20
Speaker 3
Just taxes went up in bought a house on the other side of Lake Tahoe.

00;26;16;22 - 00;26;17;21
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;26;17;24 - 00;26;32;18
Speaker 3
He asked to live there 162 days, I think is the number a year to qualify as a Nevada resident. I've seen him 360 days in a restaurant in Palo Alto, if you.

00;26;32;18 - 00;26;34;11
Speaker 2
Know what I mean.

00;26;34;14 - 00;26;36;00
Speaker 3
But that's the new game.

00;26;36;03 - 00;26;36;15
Speaker 2
Going.

00;26;36;15 - 00;26;45;11
Speaker 3
Over property in Nevada. Now I see the big ones are moving to Florida.

00;26;45;13 - 00;27;14;07
Speaker 3
I'm in favor of the tax. You'll note get the habit is not many people are not that are running for office. Why. Because money is becoming so influential in our elections today, especially with these so-called quote non-profits that are being formed everywhere with multi-millionaires like Zuckerberg and others putting money into these non-profits. And we know what they used for.

00;27;14;08 - 00;27;14;23
Speaker 3
Right.

00;27;14;26 - 00;27;15;13
Speaker 2
Right.

00;27;15;20 - 00;27;17;03
Speaker 1
Yeah. Let's talk.

00;27;17;05 - 00;27;17;20
Speaker 2
A little bit.

00;27;17;21 - 00;27;38;27
Speaker 3
Wild times, my friends. By all times. And we got to have someone. We have to have people with the guts to stand up and say, we're going to get guns out of our society. We're going to get social media back on track where it isn't killing our kids. We got to have people with guts who are willing to stand up.

00;27;38;27 - 00;27;44;18
Speaker 3
And I heard that. I want to go back to minute to that one of the hell you called.

00;27;44;18 - 00;27;45;05
Speaker 2
It.

00;27;45;07 - 00;27;53;07
Speaker 3
The other night with our six members. And where were the guts? You know everybody.

00;27;53;10 - 00;28;08;18
Speaker 3
Stereotyped talking about taking on Trump. On what issues? What do they want to really do? You know what I mean. Rather than take on Trump, take on Trump, on what you can take him on on everything, including the fact that he's a moron.

00;28;08;21 - 00;28;09;12
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;28;09;15 - 00;28;10;24
Speaker 2
But where's.

00;28;10;27 - 00;28;25;12
Speaker 1
Well, in politically that hasn't always worked anyway. I mean, everybody runs against the guy thing and I can't believe I'm losing to him. You know, I wrote in a column not too long ago. I'm tired of hearing people keep saying they want to fight. I'd rather hear somebody say what they're going to do.

00;28;25;14 - 00;28;26;19
Speaker 3
Thank you so much.

00;28;26;21 - 00;28;27;24
Speaker 2
Stop right there.

00;28;27;26 - 00;28;36;16
Speaker 3
That is the message that I heard the other night. I'm going to fight for this. I'm going to fight for that. Specifically, what is it you're going to do?

00;28;36;21 - 00;28;38;02
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.

00;28;38;04 - 00;28;50;18
Speaker 1
You mentioned Gavin. I know you're very close to him. You've been almost like a father to him, a second father to him for many, many years. Tell us. Give us your sense of him in his presidential aspirations.

00;28;50;21 - 00;29;15;17
Speaker 3
Gavin has come a long way. I don't have to tell you. As you know, I represented his mother, Tessa and Bill. His father was a dear friend of mine. I knew I knew Gavin and Hillary, his sister when they were three, four and five. That's when I. Really be close to the family. He has come a long way.

00;29;15;23 - 00;29;40;04
Speaker 3
We do know he has tripped and fall a couple of times, right? Yeah. He will tell you that. Go read his new book. I think he's got the guts. He's got. I think he's got the leadership. The real issue is who you surround yourself with, right? I would not be the lawyer I am without the fabulous people in my office, if you know what I mean.

00;29;40;07 - 00;29;40;22
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;29;41;00 - 00;30;03;01
Speaker 3
I mean, yes, I've got the ability to stand in front of a jury and let them know what they should do. But I couldn't get in front of that jury unless I had the fabulous lawyers. I have that. Get me there. You understand? On the train now, Gavin. The key is to anyone that's running for president in 28.

00;30;03;04 - 00;30;31;23
Speaker 3
To surround themselves with people who have the guts, the integrity and fortitude to really speak out, move forward and find out what track the train is on. In other words. Gavin, going back to Gavin, I think he's come a long way. He's had some falls. He's gotten up and he's moved forward. Let's hope he gets on that right track.

00;30;31;26 - 00;30;39;10
Speaker 3
Moving towards the white House if it's still standing, by the way.

00;30;39;12 - 00;30;45;19
Speaker 3
What are we up to? About 400 million now on the putting back the east wing.

00;30;45;22 - 00;30;47;04
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00;30;47;06 - 00;30;57;07
Speaker 3
He did. You see the other day that they, they, at least the New York Times came out with a statement that they're using foreign steel, that U.S. steel.

00;30;57;10 - 00;30;57;24
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;30;58;00 - 00;31;28;23
Speaker 3
It is hard to believe, is it not? Based upon the words you're coming out of the man's mouth. So back to the presidential election. We've got some fabulous people up there. Watch, watch. Mark Kelly, we can go into a whole list of people. I'm working with a group of attorneys nationally at a public. Citizens used to be trial lawyers for the public justice.

00;31;28;26 - 00;31;58;29
Speaker 3
I'm working with people around the country to see where we're really going in terms of this presidential race, which is going to be interesting. I am with Gavin 100% right now, and I'd love to see a fabulous vice chair vice president, but there are some other people to watch. Watch. Mark Kelly, a tremendous, tremendous individual. There is some sleepers.

00;31;59;01 - 00;32;28;05
Speaker 3
I know you're going to ask me this question, Kamala Harris. I think everybody gets a shot. One time she's had her shot. I don't think she can come back, although she's certainly making a lot of noise and spending a lot of money. I think the real interesting thing is going to be who if it is Gavin who is in that second spot, and I'm going to tell you right up front, if it isn't a woman, I would be upset.

00;32;28;07 - 00;32;40;06
Speaker 3
Women are, what, 51% of our country, and we need a good woman in there. Now, poor Kamala was left. What was it, 110 days to run?

00;32;40;08 - 00;32;43;06
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, something like that. Yeah.

00;32;43;09 - 00;33;04;29
Speaker 3
She did, I think, a decent job as a vice president. If I had my way, I would have had her down on the border, if you know what I mean by that. More often, doing what we could to stop gangs from coming in through Texas, San Diego, what have you. And Trump and his group picked up on that.

00;33;05;02 - 00;33;22;29
Speaker 3
And tragically, we now have what we call ice people that are a disgrace. But going back to the presidential race, you've got a lot of sleepers in there. Pritzker is going to make a run for it. Watch Chris Murphy out of. Where's he? Out of Connecticut.

00;33;23;04 - 00;33;23;17
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;33;23;19 - 00;33;31;27
Speaker 3
I think he's terrific. I think there are a lot of sleepers. What's your name? The woman governor of Michigan. Help me with.

00;33;31;27 - 00;33;34;07
Speaker 2
That one. Correct.

00;33;34;10 - 00;33;35;12
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

00;33;35;14 - 00;33;40;10
Speaker 3
Watch Amy Klobuchar, although she's running for governor.

00;33;40;13 - 00;33;46;14
Speaker 2
Who?

00;33;46;16 - 00;33;50;10
Speaker 1
Well, shucks.

00;33;50;12 - 00;33;53;16
Speaker 1
Well, we'll.

00;33;53;18 - 00;34;05;00
Speaker 1
Frank, I imagine behind the scenes right now, our producer, Frank Bravo, contacting, Joe's office. But in the meantime, out to to his office, see if they can get him back.

00;34;05;02 - 00;34;06;00
Speaker 1
Hey. Hey, Joe.

00;34;06;04 - 00;34;08;08
Speaker 2
Thank you. Yeah.

00;34;08;10 - 00;34;09;21
Speaker 3
Can you see me now?

00;34;09;23 - 00;34;11;20
Speaker 1
Yeah. We can see and hear you. Yeah.

00;34;11;21 - 00;34;13;09
Speaker 2
Thank you. Hold on.

00;34;13;09 - 00;34;20;02
Speaker 3
Hold on. We're just got neurologists going to try and get it up a little.

00;34;20;05 - 00;34;21;06
Speaker 3
Hold on one second.

00;34;21;07 - 00;34;22;22
Speaker 2
I apologize.

00;34;22;25 - 00;34;26;19
Speaker 1
Don't. Don't worry about it. This. We can edit this out, so don't worry about it.

00;34;26;21 - 00;34;33;22
Speaker 3
Yeah. A couple of other people that keep an eye on, obviously Andy Beshear. What is.

00;34;33;25 - 00;34;35;02
Speaker 1
Josh Shapiro?

00;34;35;05 - 00;34;49;24
Speaker 3
Watch Roy Cooper. I've got a lot of lawyers telling me out of North Carolina that this guy, Roy Cooper, can sell ice cream to Eskimos.

00;34;49;26 - 00;34;54;06
Speaker 3
How about Kirsten Gillibrand? Gillibrand from New York. A woman.

00;34;54;08 - 00;34;55;20
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;34;55;23 - 00;34;58;03
Speaker 3
You don't hear that much about it. Can you see me? Okay.

00;34;58;07 - 00;34;59;05
Speaker 1
Yeah, we can see you.

00;34;59;08 - 00;35;01;02
Speaker 3
Yeah. Oh, good. Good. Okay.

00;35;01;07 - 00;35;03;17
Speaker 1
Thank you. Thank you for your patience with us.

00;35;03;20 - 00;35;32;00
Speaker 3
I think I think there's got to be a woman on the ticket. I really feel strongly about that, a strong woman. And by the way, watch Cory Booker out of new Jersey. We talked about Andy Beshear. I told you that I'm getting a lot of calls about Roy Cooper. Support him. Ruben gallegos, how do you pronounce his name?

00;35;32;02 - 00;35;42;14
Speaker 3
Arizona for vice president. A very interesting guy because we've got a huge Hispanic population. We've talked about Amy Klobuchar.

00;35;42;16 - 00;35;45;27
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;35;45;29 - 00;35;47;10
Speaker 1
Josh Shapiro.

00;35;47;12 - 00;35;52;01
Speaker 3
You know who else is interesting? Watch this guy Westmore. Governor of what? Maryland.

00;35;52;05 - 00;35;53;18
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

00;35;53;21 - 00;35;59;07
Speaker 3
I think he's a sleeper for for vice president. You know.

00;35;59;09 - 00;36;28;23
Speaker 1
All these names raised a really interesting angle on this, which is the conventional wisdom is the Democratic Party is in is in the weeds and is sort of lost. I always contended that had Joe Biden gotten out of the race a year earlier. We would have seen that the Democrats have a very, very deep bench of good people coming along and that they've been overshadowed by the confusion and the disarray of Joe Biden's last couple of years.

00;36;28;25 - 00;36;42;13
Speaker 1
And what you're saying now sort of confirms that that we just didn't have a chance. Had they been through the primary process that we normally would have gone through, they would have a battle tested. A lot of them would have been people who would have emerged as national figures.

00;36;42;15 - 00;36;46;16
Speaker 3
Boy, I don't know how to. I don't know how to repeat what you just said. You were right on.

00;36;46;16 - 00;36;48;07
Speaker 1
The.

00;36;48;09 - 00;37;09;11
Speaker 3
Who wrote who wrote that wonderful book. The guy. You see him on miss NBC now, Miss Now wrote the book about exactly what happened. He promised. I love Joe Biden. He promised that he was going to be a one term governor. President. Right.

00;37;09;13 - 00;37;10;21
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;37;10;23 - 00;37;34;07
Speaker 3
And now comes the second year. And now the group surrounding him. Love that. Inside the white House. Power. Right. And they said, no, no, he can do it. But we all knew he couldn't do it. If he knew Joe, he was getting old. He was getting tired. And he promised to be one term. You were right on the money.

00;37;34;10 - 00;38;01;22
Speaker 3
In the second year, right after the second year, had we had a quasi convention and let everybody step up and speak their piece instead of putting poor Kamala leaving her to the 110th day or whatever the hell it was, when finally, finally the word is, Joe just said, I can't do it anymore. Yeah, but, I wish I could remember the guy who wrote the a little book.

00;38;01;28 - 00;38;23;23
Speaker 3
He was criticized for doing it. Anybody was right on the money. Yeah, it was people surrounding Joe that loved that white House power, and they didn't want to give it up. How foolish, how stupid, how arrogant. And look what it did to our country. It gave us a guy by the name of Trump.

00;38;23;26 - 00;38;24;24
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;38;24;27 - 00;38;32;13
Speaker 3
You remember that? Said. Said. What was it that Trump and Biden on the stage together?

00;38;32;18 - 00;38;34;21
Speaker 1
Yeah, Biden just got lost.

00;38;34;24 - 00;38;43;17
Speaker 3
Oh my God. Oh my God. And the story is oh. Tapper Jake Tapper. What's his name?

00;38;43;19 - 00;38;44;19
Speaker 1
CNN.

00;38;44;21 - 00;38;58;28
Speaker 3
He's the guy that wrote the book, and he's got some details in there given to him by some insiders that would just make you sick. And they were all true about how he got surrounded by people that just wouldn't give up the power.

00;38;59;01 - 00;39;00;05
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;39;00;07 - 00;39;20;18
Speaker 3
But you're right. You're right. Mark, had we had people on track and now I think we've got some people on track and we've. That's why we've been doing so well. Look at the governor's race in new Jersey. Virginia. Two women who are phenomenal. Look what happened in Virginia. What? Last Tuesday?

00;39;20;20 - 00;39;21;25
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;39;21;27 - 00;39;37;11
Speaker 3
I think we're on track to do something. Isn't it sad that we have to break up states now, the way we're breaking them up? But that was forced upon us when he Trump told the yo Bob, governor of Texas, to go ahead with it. Right?

00;39;37;15 - 00;39;38;00
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;39;38;04 - 00;39;41;16
Speaker 3
And it was Texas that started the game.

00;39;41;18 - 00;39;45;02
Speaker 1
I'm not hearing Mandarin. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;39;45;05 - 00;39;49;27
Speaker 3
And then Gavin smartly had to get into it with prop. Had to do it.

00;39;50;00 - 00;39;52;07
Speaker 1
Yeah. Are you optimistic.

00;39;52;08 - 00;39;59;16
Speaker 3
About by the way I don't think we're done. I think we're going to see a couple of more red states get redder, if you know what I mean.

00;39;59;20 - 00;40;08;28
Speaker 1
Yeah. Are you optimistic about the midterms and Democrats taking back at least the House, if not possibly the Senate?

00;40;09;03 - 00;40;31;02
Speaker 3
I'm glad you said that. I am so optimistic about the House. I'm on the phone once a day. That's what we're concentrating on. This group that I'm involved in is the house. But in our last two phone calls, group phone calls, we're now talking about the Senate. I think we can take Maine. I think we can take North Carolina.

00;40;31;05 - 00;40;42;23
Speaker 3
I think there's a shot at Alaska. I mean, this young man in Texas, we've never taken Texas. But did you see what he did in the first? What was the quarter in raising money?

00;40;42;27 - 00;40;43;19
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;40;43;21 - 00;40;56;16
Speaker 3
And if the if the so-called AG wins the seat in the primary for the Senate and we got a shot at that in Texas, believe it or not.

00;40;56;18 - 00;40;57;12
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;40;57;15 - 00;41;11;27
Speaker 3
So, boy, if we could take I. I'm convinced we're going to take the house. One never knows. But I'm convinced him. No. But now there is talk about the Senate, and I'm so excited about it. I can't tell you.

00;41;11;29 - 00;41;13;19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.

00;41;13;21 - 00;41;16;23
Speaker 3
What are.

00;41;16;25 - 00;41;18;00
Speaker 3
Yeah. I've lost my dream.

00;41;18;04 - 00;41;39;23
Speaker 1
Okay, let me ask you. What are you. You know, I know you were a a strong advocate for the First Amendment. You know, we can dwell on all the things that Trump has done. But what is your sense of the state of the nation, the state of the First Amendment in particular? Because you see, you know, you see lawsuits being filed.

00;41;39;23 - 00;41;54;22
Speaker 1
Criminal charges were filed against the Southern Poverty Law Center the other day. I mean, he, you know, as someone who at one point seriously considered running for attorney general, you must be appalled at what's happening to the Department of Justice.

00;41;54;29 - 00;42;09;06
Speaker 3
It's beyond copper. Yeah. Beyond comprehension. We have them in some of our lawsuits. They come in after we sue a corporation. They used to come in. Now they don't come in at all. And the 1 or 2 we have them in their in embarrassment.

00;42;09;08 - 00;42;11;07
Speaker 1
You mean there's co plaintiffs yesterday.

00;42;11;13 - 00;42;18;10
Speaker 3
Look what happened yesterday when they finally dropped the investigation against the head of the fed.

00;42;18;11 - 00;42;20;05
Speaker 1
Yeah yeah. Jerome Powell.

00;42;20;11 - 00;42;48;08
Speaker 3
Yeah Darryl Powell Jerome Powell. I mean the arrogance of how that is being used as a total tool of the white House. Right. A tool. It's a disgrace. And we've got to come. We've got. I'll tell you these these next elections, the midterms, and then the 28 elections are going to be where our democracy is going. It is brutal.

00;42;48;11 - 00;43;14;21
Speaker 3
My daughter lives in Switzerland and Geneva, and she tells me, dad, you ought to hear what people here in Europe are saying about a country where I grew up, a country that was so loved for the many, many past years since World War two. And now they look at us as an adverse nation, if you know what I mean.

00;43;14;24 - 00;43;39;24
Speaker 3
She's in Geneva right in the middle of the financial world of Europe. And her husband is in finances. And he says to me how, how distraught, all of Europe is and more than Europe, they're afraid. They say all we're doing is making China the mountain it's going to become.

00;43;39;27 - 00;43;41;00
Speaker 1
There.

00;43;41;03 - 00;43;42;19
Speaker 3
Assuming that the Democrats.

00;43;42;19 - 00;43;43;00
Speaker 1
Win.

00;43;43;00 - 00;44;00;23
Speaker 4
The House and and even when the Senate, there are some that are arguing, you know, for impeachment of Trump, there are some that want to expand the Supreme Court with your background. What do you think about the idea of expanding the Supreme Court?

00;44;00;26 - 00;44;24;27
Speaker 3
I'm totally in favor of it. And let me tell you what I mean by that. I think there ought to be a Supreme Court for criminal justice and separate out civil justice. That's what they've done in England for over three, 400 years. They've had two separate courts, criminal courts and civil courts. Here we have one court that has to make all these decisions.

00;44;25;00 - 00;44;48;16
Speaker 3
I think it would be much better to have two separate courts now in terms of expanding the court. That's come up. My good friend out of Massachusetts has a bill in or did have a bill in to expand the court to what, 12? Yeah. 9 to 12. Then you might end up with six and six. I thought it should have been 11.

00;44;48;18 - 00;44;58;18
Speaker 3
Yes. I think the court should be expanded to give us more opportunity to put on minorities. Women.

00;44;58;20 - 00;45;27;05
Speaker 3
You know, we're a nation now. We are not a 100% white Caucasian nation. And we need a better blending of people, going forward. So the answer is yes. I think we should not only expand, I think it should be divided into a criminal section, courts and civil courts, as it is in England. And most countries have exactly that.

00;45;27;07 - 00;45;47;14
Speaker 1
Joe, you're you're at an age well past retirement for mere mortals, which I wouldn't describe you as what keeps you going, because, you know, you and I talk often. Every time I say, how you doing? You say you are working your ass off. And I know that's true. I am. What keeps you going?

00;45;47;16 - 00;46;15;16
Speaker 3
Going is the words of my mother. My mother was an actress. I was born in Chicago. When she was doing a show there. We were back to New York. Two months, three months later. I just grew up in a neighborhood. I was a young Catholic boy in a largely Jewish. Believe it or not. Neighborhood with the other group.

00;46;15;17 - 00;46;48;26
Speaker 3
Acadian. And I grew up with a sense of you gotta always work with other people. You've got to understand that education is what life is all about, and you got to go after justice. So why am I breaking my ass practicing at my age, my young age of 62? I'm I'm going ten hours a day filing cases left and right in the world of AI.

00;46;48;28 - 00;47;14;28
Speaker 3
I want to see that our children, my children and grandchildren grow up in a world that's a true democracy. Yes, I could stop working tomorrow, but my theory is that I'm not going to. And I will only stop the words out of my mouth will be when they put me in a hole. Start throwing dirt in and I will ask, why are you throwing the dirt?

00;47;15;01 - 00;47;20;24
Speaker 1
You mentioned the words of your mother. What were those?

00;47;20;27 - 00;47;29;18
Speaker 3
Very gentle words. Sometimes tough words. Get off your ass. Get out there and do something.

00;47;29;20 - 00;47;33;24
Speaker 1
I think that's a good note for us to. Yeah, I want to. I want.

00;47;33;24 - 00;47;48;14
Speaker 4
To ask one more question. And that is, you know, you clearly had this remarkable career that's gone on for decades. What do you want your legacy to be? What do you want people to say about that? Good.

00;47;48;16 - 00;48;18;25
Speaker 3
I would like them to say that he inspired some young people in my office here. I've got young lawyers to take on cases that they normally wouldn't take on, if you know what I'm talking about. And I just want to have a legacy of where people will understand that the only way we keep a democracy around us, the country we have, is to keep pushing to help other people.

00;48;18;27 - 00;48;47;17
Speaker 3
You understand what I mean by those basic words of help other people? There are some people that just, unfortunately, are not born with what the two of you are born with, and it's our duty to make sure that they can live in a country with us without that. Take a look at countries around the world where people have no voice, no control over what they do.

00;48;47;19 - 00;48;56;21
Speaker 3
And the legacy I want to leave is please excuse this language. Get off your ass. Go out there and help people.

00;48;56;23 - 00;49;04;10
Speaker 1
Jill, thank you so much for being with us. It's always a treat, and we're honored to have you come on our show. Thanks very much.

00;49;04;12 - 00;49;05;28
Speaker 3
Thank you, my man. Love you.

00;49;06;00 - 00;49;34;06
Speaker 1
All right. I love you, too, by Bob. It's time for the bullpen. Yep. You have known Joe for. I can't tell you how many years. Yeah, it's a treat to know him because he is what he has always been, which is somebody who's, you know, he, I first saw him in the courtroom trying a case and saw him cross-examining somebody and thought, Thank God it's not me, because he can be so imposing and so present in the courtroom.

00;49;34;09 - 00;49;44;19
Speaker 1
But he has obviously still has a passion. Really a genuine passion for the underdog. And it's really colored his whole career. Yeah.

00;49;44;22 - 00;50;16;03
Speaker 4
No, it's absolutely true. And, you know, we didn't get into there were a lot of cases going back 40, 50 years. That he was involved with landmark cases. And, you know, it is. You know, I wonder if we're seeing, you know, the loss of this generation, Joe's generation, whether we're going to see people rise to the level that he has coming in terms of the future.

00;50;16;05 - 00;50;36;25
Speaker 1
That's an interesting question. You know, Joe and I are friends, and I've had a chance to meet quite a few of his partners, including the two named partners, Frank Petri and and Neil McCarthy, who, incidentally, is the son of the longtime speaker of the state Assembly, Leo McCarthy, was also lieutenant governor. And they, you know, they're not the same persona.

00;50;36;27 - 00;51;02;17
Speaker 1
Joe certainly brings that Brooklyn. Chip on the shoulder sort of attitude, but they certainly have the same hunger for writing wrongs. And it's kind of refreshing to see somebody who's sort of unabashedly about that. And I think quite a few people in his firm are like that. And so maybe there's maybe that is his legacy, maybe that will be as like, he certainly has everybody around him working just as hard as he is.

00;51;02;19 - 00;51;28;00
Speaker 1
Well, let's talk a little bit about the general political thing. You know, situation we we saw the governor's race. I think you and I would probably agree. I was a little disappointed with the the debate. First of all, I thought the questions they asked were not really on point about what's on people's minds. They tried to ask clever questions that we get distinctive answers, and I think they were hoping to get a headline out of that.

00;51;28;01 - 00;51;46;02
Speaker 1
It drives me crazy. I know there are a lot of people on the stage, but it makes me nuts when they say, you know, the state budget you have 30s. Yeah. You know, I always think of the if these if these guys were running the Lincoln Douglas debate, I could just imagine, okay, Mr. Lincoln, slavery. You have one minute.

00;51;46;04 - 00;51;54;13
Speaker 1
I mean, it makes no sense to me to do it that way. But I guess the disappointment is nobody really emerged as okay. He's my guy now.

00;51;54;15 - 00;52;16;26
Speaker 4
Yeah. You know, it seemed like, and this happens with some debates where there's so much of an effort to make it tight and efficient and move it forward and everything. And they did a good job of that, but I'm not sure anybody I've read a lot of articles came away with a, a real sense of where they are.

00;52;16;28 - 00;52;43;15
Speaker 4
There was no real interaction, hard interaction. There were some offhanded comments that they made about each other. It's going to be fascinating to see what happens here as they begin to sharpen their attacks on each other. It's tough. You know, you've got at least three of the four Democratic candidates that are essentially tied. There are so many different polls, it's hard to say.

00;52;43;18 - 00;53;11;23
Speaker 4
Mehan has a lot of money, and if anybody kind of came out of the debate as being a little bit different. I think he did. But, you know, the last thing that Democrats want is to have these four at about 12% or 13%. Yeah. As a result. I expected that Hilton would take off amongst Republicans.

00;53;11;25 - 00;53;37;05
Speaker 4
I'm not sure that's happened as much as I thought. And I think if, you know, thinking about MAGA Republicans, if you watched Hilton and Bianco, Bianco is more simple, straightforward. Goes after the red meat. And, you know, so I'm not sure how it's all going to play out. I guess it's exciting that we have a race.

00;53;37;07 - 00;53;38;18
Speaker 4
We don't know the outcome.

00;53;38;23 - 00;53;59;27
Speaker 1
Yeah, that is actually refreshing. The real answer, I think, in a political context, would be for there to be two or more debates between the Democrats, because they'll get better at this. One of the things that was evident is that they're not really ready yet. That they hadn't they hadn't spent enough time facing each other and honing their attacks, honing their comments, honing their.

00;54;00;03 - 00;54;16;17
Speaker 1
I mean, but Sarah is a good example. You know this better than I do, Bob. You don't just jump up to the new level and you're suddenly able at that level. You have to learn how to be a candidate at that level. You saw that with Kamala Harris. She in many ways, she wasn't as ready as she needed to be running for president.

00;54;16;23 - 00;54;40;20
Speaker 1
And so the more they can do this, the better. But, you know, ballots drop in less than two weeks. Yeah. And so it's time to get ready. If there was ever a time for people to wait to vote, this would be it. Because something may as well, well, so adequately demonstrated. You're better off waiting in this case, because something could still happen that will change the whole nature of the race.

00;54;40;27 - 00;54;45;04
Speaker 1
Yeah. Other than that. Yeah. Well, other than that, we got gas.

00;54;45;04 - 00;54;46;09
Speaker 4
Prices enough.

00;54;46;11 - 00;55;05;26
Speaker 1
You know, other than that, we've got high gas prices. We've got a war that. Yeah. It seems like nobody really wants. And a president who can't seem to find his way out of it. It's clear from what I read that he thought this would all be over in two weeks. Kind of like what happened in Venezuela. He got a little overconfident because of what happened to Venezuelan.

00;55;05;28 - 00;55;27;25
Speaker 1
The Middle East is not South America. It's just a whole different environment. So that's going to take some time to play out. There there is a hunger, I think, for people for something to happen that they're tired of sort of the same status quo. They're tired of this, you know, the constant negative stuff that comes out of the white House.

00;55;27;27 - 00;55;40;27
Speaker 1
And they're not crazy about Democrats who decide to play the same game. You're never going to be as good at it as Trump is anyway. So it's better for them to find their own voice. And that starts with these gubernatorial candidates, I think.

00;55;40;28 - 00;56;06;13
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that if you go back and listen to Trump, I used to listen to him occasionally on radio programs in New York in the 80s and 90s. He has a fixation about Iran. He has talked about it endlessly. The irony for him, this was going to be the time where people were going to get more money out of their taxes.

00;56;06;15 - 00;56;34;17
Speaker 4
As a result of the big beautiful bill, there'd be a new fed chair that would presumably loosen up money and we'd have growth. But the war has managed to just push all that aside, which is really what people are looking for. And Trump, it reminds me in some ways, of Jimmy Carter. You know, he just got mired in a situation in a for ans good at anything.

00;56;34;19 - 00;56;44;20
Speaker 4
It's bogging things down. It's teasing this. It's teasing that, and, he just can't figure a way out of this at this point.

00;56;44;25 - 00;57;15;26
Speaker 1
Well, it's a lesson we should have learned in Vietnam, in Afghanistan, in in Iraq, which is for all the might we have, you know, it creates a level of opposition at those countries that it is self-sustaining, that they, you know, they don't have to do much to prevent us from doing what we want to do. And it's a stalemate, which, you know, stalemate is to their advantage every time because they can outlast us and they don't have any reason not to.

00;57;15;28 - 00;57;25;16
Speaker 1
You know, when they're a totalitarian society, they have such complete control over what they're doing. That there's no political pressure on them to do things differently.

00;57;25;21 - 00;57;56;06
Speaker 4
Yeah. I you know, I disagree. I think time it turns the war time is on our side. I think that, you know, we can cripple that economically, and they clearly don't want to have to deal with that situation. The problem is, politically, it's not going to help Trump. It's going to hurt him the longer it goes. And for us to come out of this with a resume change or a much weaker Iran.

00;57;56;08 - 00;58;10;18
Speaker 4
It's going to take time. And I think he recognizes that. And I think, you know, at this point he's willing to kind of go with it, even though it politically is going to really harm. The Republican Party.

00;58;10;20 - 00;58;33;07
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, the the challenge for him is politically, I don't think he has time. And I think that's I think it understands that, which is why verbally he's kind of flailing around. And one of the, you know, if he lasts until November, he will be, you know, by next year if the Democrats control of the House, he would probably be hampered in his ability to continue to pursue this.

00;58;33;09 - 00;58;45;03
Speaker 1
So I would imagine he wants it over sooner than that. But the long term consequences of what is what is done to the economy and to the American attitude toward him. I don't think that changes anytime soon.

00;58;45;05 - 00;58;46;15
Speaker 4
Yeah, I agree.

00;58;46;21 - 00;58;51;28
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, well, on that rare note of agreement, I'm Mark Simon.

00;58;52;01 - 00;58;53;05
Speaker 4
I'm Bob marks.

00;58;53;07 - 00;58;59;04
Speaker 1
Thank you for being with us on the game. And thank you to Frank Bravo, our producer, and we'll see you next time.