Chris Dawson on Coaching SDRs, Escaping the Leadership Hamster Wheel and Leading Teams to Win!
In this episode of the I Used To Be Crap At Sales Podcast, Chris Dawson sits with our host Mark Ackers to take sales leaders on an insightful journey through his personal experiences and lessons learned from over 25 years in the sales arena.
Chris has held nearly every sales role; from door-to-door, SDR and enterprise level sales, right through to national sales management and training for top 100 companies - and transformed from someone who admits he “used to be crap at sales” into a highly successful sales leader and coach.
Now a director at ‘6th Door’, Chris designs and delivers tailored sales training and coaching programmes to businesses worldwide. In this episode, he shares invaluable, powerful advice on spotting burnout in your reps, simplifying SDR coaching, and how to help your reps overcome the monotony of sales. He also tackles the biggest mistake sales managers make and reveals how to break free from the leadership hamster wheel by putting your team first.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone serious about elevating their sales leadership game and getting the best from their team.
What is I Used To Be Crap At Sales?
Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.
Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.
Welcome to the podcast. Here's a
sneak peek of what's coming up
in today's episode. Did you used
to be crap sales? I'm gonna say
I think I still am. Every time I
think I've got good something comes
along to make me realize how
little I know. So then I learn
more, and I get better, and then
something comes along and makes
me realize, oh, I want to be
like them. They're amazing. And
I think that's one of the ways
that I did slowly get better. I
genuinely still think I'm not as
good as a lot of people. There
was a time that I thought I was
really good. Okay, I turned up
at the front on my first day,
and I was heartbroken. Didn't
have a clue. I was awful. I was
young. I had no emotional
intelligence. I was naive.
Should have been fired from
these jobs, but they supported
me, and they helped me, and I
started to get good. Let's grow
our people, because we are going
to get off this hamster wheel
every month, every quarter being
a slog. What would you say to an
SDR when you're coaching them
and you can tell that they've
just got it in them. They're
exceptional, they're talented.
They can do this, but the
monotony is killing them. I've
worked with a lot of SDRs, and
one of the first things I ask
them is, when we lost out a week
off same call day after day in
the same office on the same
phone, and before you know it,
you've slipped into that
pattern. Take a step back, strip
it back to the basics, go to
absolute bare minimum in your
calls. That's the advice you'd
give to managers on how to help
their SDRs break this monotony
and keep going. The first advice
I'd give to managers is, what
piece of advice would you give
to someone looking to step up
into their first leadership
role? Ask yourself, why you want
to do it? Do you really want to
be a leader? And it's no longer
about you. What's the most
common flaw you see in sales
managers using the myth that
they haven't got time to look
after their team, because
everything else should be
secondary. Biggest thing you can
do as a sales manager is take,
hello and welcome to another
episode of The I used to be crap
at sales podcast. I'm your host,
Mark Akers, the co founder and
Head of Sales here at my sales
coach, we called the podcast I
used to be crap at sales because
all of our guests used to be
today. I've got the director of
sixth door and the co host of
the sales Dojo podcast. That's
Chris Dawson. Chris, welcome
from podcast host to podcast
guest. It's great to have you
here today. How you feeling
very good, really good to
finally come and have a chat
with you. Mark, it's
great to have you here. Let's
kick it off with a yes, no
question, Chris, did you used to
be crap at sales.
I'm going to swerve the yes, no
answer. I'm going to say I think
I still am. Okay. Tell me more
about that. So my sales career
is vast, and I've always looked
at myself going through plateaus
where every time I think I've
got good summit comes along to
make me realize how little I
know. So then I learn more, and
I get better, and then something
comes along and makes me
realize, oh, I want to be like
them. They're amazing. And I
keep going through these phases,
and I think that's one of the
ways that I did slowly get
better, was I genuinely still
think I'm not as good as a lot
of people. When was the most
recent example of when you felt
like that?
So I don't remember if you
remember back in lockdown, we
run a show every night on
clubhouse, clubhouse. Yeah.
Listened. Amazing experience,
not lockdown. I know that was
grim for a lot of people, but I
got to spend an hour every night
for 297
days, I think we did it in a
row, listening to people from
all over the world take on how
to sell. I was just a sponge. I
was I got like, seven notebooks
full of this stuff that we were
learning from people, from
yourself as well, and from rich
and, you know, for Stephen
hyman's daughter, was on there
some nights, and people from
Bali and Canada and the US and
South Africa and everything. And
it really humbled me that I'd
got into a position where, you
know, I was feeling pretty proud
of myself, built a successful
sales training business, closed
big deals. So I'm not saying
that I'm a bad salesperson at
all, but I still think I'm, I'm
a millionth of what I could be.
I'll give you an idea. Go ahead.
So you were just telling me off
camera that you're, I'm allowed
to say. So I'm assuming, if not,
we'll edit out. But you're
writing a book, right? I am at
the moment, yep, um, that's a
book. There seven notepads. Oh
yeah, worth of learnings. Oh
yeah. Imagine the book that you
could write there. Just each
page is a lesson, right? Oh, I
mean, the rooms that we did so
like one night, seven o'clock at
night, everyone's been stuck in
the house for weeks. There's
people dying all over the world,
and there's me and Leon going,
hi everyone. Tonight, we're
going to talk about how to get
referral business. Yeah, and 150
people from around the world,
salespeople, sales professionals
would come on and give us their
ideas on how to do that, and I'd
write it all down. I felt like a
thief, like we were getting this
for free. And yeah, we've got so
how to get referral business,
how to make a cold call, how to
handle a price objection, how to
deal with your mindset, how to
raise VC funding. Could be
anything, and I've got notebooks
full of it. Yeah.
That
is 296 lockdown lessons for
sales professionals. I'd buy
that book. I'm going to buy your
first book that's coming out,
but I'm going to buy the sequel.
So when you think back to your
sales career, one of the
questions I love to ask is there
any Howler mistakes that you can
think back to and share with us,
there's
got to be so many, hasn't there?
I've high five to Chico exec,
not realizing they were the
chief exec anyway, proper High
Five went in.
If I go back a long time, still
my very earliest sales job, or
one of my very early sales jobs,
I was 17. I was a student the
summer of 96 Brit pops raging.
The sun was shining. I was 17.
What a time to be alive. All my
friends were picking cabbages in
fields in the summer holidays to
make money or working in shops
or laboring. And I'm, like a lot
of salespeople, inherently,
quite a lazy guy. Mark, yeah, I
managed to find a job selling
oil paintings door to door, like
you do, and I went off on summer
evenings listening to pulp and
blur on the way there in a
minibus with a bag of oil
paintings to a housing estate in
Cheshire or somewhere. I'd be
given three streets to Canvas
for three hours, and we'd knock
on the door and maybe go into it
later on what we said and how we
do it, but I've been in places
and got drunk with people. I've
been chased by dogs. I've had
the police called on me. I've
made dreadful mistakes. I think
one of the biggest I've made was
quite recently. And I'm sorry if
you're listening or watching
this, if it was you, we added
when it first came out, a note
taking function to zoom. You
know, it dictates everything
that was
written. And once the meeting
had finished, we said some less
than complimentary things about
the person on the meeting, which
in hindsight, we stood up for.
They were fairly well deserved,
not realizing it, will
automatically email them a full
transcription of everything
we've just said with your name.
So it literally said Chris, and
there's this is word for word,
what I said, and it dropped in
his emails, and we didn't
realize for like two hours,
until we got an email, which was
rather harshly written. I knew
what had the second I opened
this email, I knew what had
happened. So we've turned that
note taking function off
straightaway. Important lesson
for everybody, technology is
listening all the time now, be
dead careful what you've got
attached. Yeah, that didn't go
very well. That is a hell of a
lesson. A heck of a lesson,
yeah? So just to be really clear
that this is on Zoom, you've got
the AI summary. So that AI
summary, yeah, is this a plug in
that you use in addition to
that, or is this the Zoom AI?
No, we were using an otter
plugin. So otter then
automatically emails everybody
invited to that meeting with the
full transcription, whether they
were on it at that point or not,
right? And it's literally your
name, what you said, somebody
else's name, what they said. And
I think the email started with,
and, excuse my language, but
word for word, Dear Chris,
here's a fucking life hack for
you. Turn your transcription
service off if you're going to
talk smack about people. If you
ever had it where your heart
just goes in your stomach, you
go cold. So we're like, Well,
what are we going to do? Like,
there's no excuse. You bang to
write it literally says your
name. This is what you said. You
can't get out of it, so we
double down. Really, there was
no way out of it. There was no
excuse. So we double down. I
just reply, and I said, you
know, obviously no offense calls
you talk differently in the
background, don't you? But we
did mean what we said. Would you
like some feedback? We just went
for it. Double down on it. There
was no other way out of it.
Didn't get the deal, no, like,
didn't get anything further.
But, yeah, these heart stopping
moments. Wow.
What a story. I can't wait to
hear off camera exactly what was
said. But there we go. Okay, so
I was looking at your career,
and I feel like we've known each
other for years. Yeah, like in
lockdown, I listened on
clubhouse, and I don't think I
ever spoke on it. Maybe
I did, but I'm sure we did have
a chat now and then, Mark, yeah,
no,
maybe we did, but I remember
listening, and I thought I'd
known each other for ages, but
obviously we've already met a
few times, but I was looking
over your background, I see
obviously started in advertising
in 1996 as you say, a year to be
alive. That was a year before I
started secondary school. Just
not trying to make you feel old.
I'm an old father, that's okay.
Then retail sales, then a couple
of years in telesales, then you
moved to iron Mars, a sales team
leader, but still an IC yet
managing a team of up to 12
people and promoted Sales
Training Manager in 2007 which
is, I think, where you found
your calling, so to speak. Yeah,
then ahead of sales training at
BT for just over three years
before founding sixth door, so
sort. You told it all up period
of 27 and a half years you've
been in this year, really? Yeah,
I was gonna ask you, how long
you think you crap for like, in
that period, because one of the
things people say to me is,
like, probably crap at eight
years or 10 years. But obviously
you've slightly thrown a curb in
there saying you feel like, and
I get that logic, yeah.
Well, would it let me put some
definition on that? There was a
time that I thought I was really
good, okay, the few instances
that stand out to me, Mark one
was, I've got no discernible
skill. My family laughs that in
the Apocalypse, when we need
people to rebuild civilization,
I am going to be useless, yeah,
unless you want somebody who's
great at talking to people and
selling, but if we need to build
houses and men stuff, not a
chance. So I've always sold.
It's the only discernible skill
I've got. So when I was younger,
sold oil paintings door to door.
I paid my way through university
selling Pokemon paraphernalia on
the street like I hawked it on
the street. My first trip to
Newcastle ever was, I made
posters of famous footballers on
a PC, which in the late 90s,
early 2000s clearly weren't very
good. Had them laminated, and
then I just stand outside St
James's Park at big match days
and sell them on the street
until we got chased off by other
hawkers or the police or
whatever. And it was that whole
entrepreneurial sell or you
don't pay the rent sort of
spirit. So when I got my first
sales job, I went to it thinking
I was a really good salesperson.
This was my first lesson that I
wasn't market stall street
corners, door knocking, B to C.
I sold fake glasses with a fake
nose on. I had a bag of 250 of
them big black glasses with a
big nose and a mustache
attached. And at University of
Central Lancashire, they used to
have a thing called The Longest
Day, last day of term. They'd
have a 12, it's before 24 hour
licensing. They opened at
midday, closed at two at night,
14 hours of Bedlam, drinking
parties, bands, all that lot.
There was a queue half a mile
long to get into this thing, and
I just stood at one end of the
queue with a pair of glasses
with a fake nose and a fake
mustache on with a bag full of
them with a sign around my neck
and lots of them, two quid. By
the time I got to the front of
the queue, they'd all gone. I
had a load of money in my
pocket, and I went and enjoyed
the longest day. And it was dead
easy, because by the time I'd
sold some of them, everybody
would see other people wearing
them and they were and it just
kind of snowballed. So all I've
ever done was sell so when I got
my first what I'd call
professional sales job, which we
can go into later, I thought,
I'll smash this like, how dead
easy. But it was on the phone.
Never done that. I turned up at
the on my first day full of
spunk and ego like most 18 year
olds are, yeah, and I was
heartbroken when I picked up the
phone. I just didn't have a
clue. I was absolutely and I was
for months, I was awful, and I'd
learned this roller coaster
really quickly that so many SDRs
have of. One, the phone is
really hard. Two, how do you
control your mindset? How do you
cope with rejection? How do you
hit a target? All these things.
And that was one of those first
plateaus of, I'm really good at
sales, to Oh no, I don't know
anything, do I? And that was
kind of that beginning of that
journey, to use a phrase as we
go along, to me realizing that
I'm still not very good. Who
helped you turn that around?
Number of people along the way
and a number of happenstance
took me quite a time to get my
head around the phone in my
first phone job, I had a lack of
confidence, which had been
knocked I was young. I had no
emotional intelligence. I was
naive, but I learned it, and I
started going with I had a few
people that really supported me.
I often call out the MD of the
champion newspaper group, lady
called Betty Drummond, who
should have fired me? Should
have been fired from these jobs,
but they supported me, and they
helped me, and I started to get
good, and then I went and I
moved on, and you're bad again.
And it's that, that step up. So
there's been a number of people
along the way. There's been
myself, there's been a number of
books, there's been some points
of realization, and I suppose at
the point in time I am now, it's
churlish off me to say I'm not
very good at selling. You know,
there's, it's that classic
imposter syndrome. There's a
wealth of evidence to say I am,
but there's probably a wealth of
people out there that would go,
No, it's not. It's crap, because
they dealt with me during a crap
phase. So yeah, it's an
interesting
ride. Well, there might be one
prospect in particular just got
there might be somebody
there who's pretty hungry with
me. Yeah, no,
I know you're being very British
and humbling when you say you're
not. I know you're a phenomenal
sales trainer and coach, really
lucky to have your time here
today. But yeah, it's
interesting that ego that you
would have had going into your
first job, and I understand
that, like, actually, you know,
some very entrepreneurial young
age, and you seem to have lots
of stories. I'm sure we could
spend half hour talking about
all the ways you made money and
sold it and early. Oh yeah, but
let's talk about that first job
then. So how did you go from
that, that humbling moment, to
being a team leader at iomm? I.
That's quite astounding. You say
you should have been sacked and
you weren't. How did you go from
that to that? So
very potted history was I got I
got really good on the phone,
started beating target, then I
decided to go uni, because at
the time in the 90s, that was
the thing you had to do if you
wanted to get anywhere. Sales
wasn't recognized like it is
now, but I sold stuff to pay my
way through there. One of the
jobs I got at uni was a clothes
shop, and it was you got
commission on the clothes that
you sold. So it's a different
type of selling, again, hustling
for clothing. People would come
in, we'd have DJs in the
windows, a really cool clothes
shop, and you just go over with
a cup of tea. First thing I
learned make them a cup of tea,
because you've got them for 20
minutes, then, because they've
got to drink the cup of tea and
you can chat about it. Oh, I
thought you'd see those, those
of you in Yeah, you're right.
That would look good, wouldn't
it? And off we go. And we're
hustling for clothes. Watch. We
got commission on how many
clothes we sold, and I was all
about the commission, but then I
wasn't making enough money,
because there's no money in
retail, so I look for where's
the more money. And I got into
what I would class as my first
proper SDR role, which wasn't
recognized like that back then,
but they had a really good basic
for the period, dreadful for
now, for the period. And that
attracted me is that if I get
commission on top as well, I've
got a bit of security, and off
we go. And when I started, I'd
been hustling clothes again. I
was at that ego point, and I
went in and I actually smashed
it really well when I when I
started off. But it was my first
full time SDR role. And the
thing I hadn't learned at that
point, I'd learned to objection
handle and open a call and put
the call time in and the dials.
What I hadn't learned was the
mindset thing. So I started off
really well, with my ego, with
my skill, I was doing great.
Then what I'd not learnt is how
to deal with the monotony that
started to get to me, not to
deal with the bad week when you
inevitably get it. Still only in
my early 20s, I didn't have the
EQ to deal with that as well,
how to separate what's going on
outside the office from inside.
It was that extra part that I've
not learned then, and that was
the next platter. I went
downhill again there, and I just
it was like steps going up a
plateau, not that good, up
again, until I eventually got on
that thing. One of the big
things that did help with that
was, and I don't know if anybody
listening to this can empathize
with this, I moved offices. I
was with a certain group,
certain place with a load of
people doing it in a certain way
that just I didn't gel with. I
didn't like going in the office
in the morning. I didn't really
want to be there. I wanted to
get the call over with. And it
put me in quite a dark place, as
anybody who's been in SDR can
testify to. And I moved offices
to same company, but to a
different place with different
people, with a different leader,
with a different outlook, and it
was like a fresh start. And I
really took off then and again,
just up these steps and up these
steps, and then you don't
realize it, you're suddenly a
lot better. It's like a sport or
learning to drive or anything,
because it's so incremental. You
don't realize till you look
back, how much better you've got
and then I started getting
consistent on target and helping
other people get consistent on
target and learning new ways,
and then reading books. And I
think the biggest pivotal moment
at that point was I took it
seriously. All of a sudden,
there's a lot you said there
that I'd love to dive into. I
think that that last bit of
taking it seriously is a big
thing, because I think a lot of
people fall into sales Well, I
mean, we all, yeah, exactly
right. And we do that almost
can't do anything else. Yeah,
I'll take that job, or I need
money, or this, I'll do this for
a little while. And it's that
realization of, actually, this
is a skill, this thing that I do
that pays my salary, that pays
for my mortgage, funds my
lifestyle, this is a skill. If I
can fine tune this and you take
it seriously, I can make more
money. But the bit I really want
to ask you about is a challenge
that I see SDRs have themselves,
but managers have with SDRs the
monotony. Yeah, so let's think
about, first of all, from an SDR
point of view, right? We know
how important that role is. It
is vital to pipeline fixes
almost every problem that's
monotonous. Yeah, every day is
the same thing. Let's talk about
the SDR first, and I want to get
to a manager. But what would you
say to an SDR and you're
coaching them, and you can tell
that they've just got it in
them. They're exceptional,
they're talented, they can do
this, but the monotony is
killing them. Yeah. What do you
say to them? How do you coach
them?
There's a number of things. And
you know, one thing I've really
noticed within the SDR world as
well. And I don't know whether
this is just me that's or if you
relate to this, people don't
take time off. People become
obsessed with the role, and
they've got a target here in the
field, they can't take any time
off. And I've worked with a lot
of SDRs, and one of the first
things I asked them is, when we
last had a week off? And quite.
Half an hour eight months ago.
I'm like, and it's not about
burnout or any of these things,
but it's about you just need
that reset a little bit. You've
got to take that step back.
There's Have you ever seen Dead
Poets Society? Robin Williams
film? Highly recommend it. So
very short. Gist of it is, Robin
Williams is a maverick English
teacher in a private school in
the 50s, and he's trying to get
the students out of this normal
mindset, that they have this
regimented mindset. So he takes
them all in the courtyard, so
there's 25 students, and he
says, right, I want you to all
work around the courtyard in a
circle, but do a silly walk. Do
whatever you want. You can hop,
you can skip, you can jump, you
can do strides, you can walk
backwards, do whatever you want.
All work, all walk in all
different ways, going round, and
within three circuits of the
courtyard, they're all walking
in absolute unison. They're all
marching to a beat together. And
this is how an SDRs life can go
same call day after day in the
same office on the same phone,
and before you know it, you've
slipped into that pattern. You
need a I know it's the most used
phrase now, isn't it, in a
different way, but you need a
pattern interrupt. That's what
pattern interrupt really means.
It's interrupting your pattern
of what you're doing things in.
So take that step back, review
your script, listen to your
call. What can you throw
overboard? We find the monotony
tends to lead to over
complication, to less interest,
to take a step back, strip it
back to the basics. Go to
absolute bare minimum in your
calls, take a bit of time off.
I think they take a bit of time
interesting. I know. So I think
I've managed salespeople for
about eight years. I don't think
I've ever sort of been conscious
of them taking like just except
holidays never declined a
holiday as it comes in. But I
don't think I've ever thought,
oh, when's the last time you had
a holiday? I don't think that's
ever entered my mind. And that's
that's really eye opening? Well,
we
you just go online. We live in
this hustle culture, don't we?
Yeah, that's 10x hustle. You
know, time offs for wimps and
all this lot.
Well, that's changing now,
though, it
really is, and I'm glad about
that, but it is. You're running
at 50% so first thing I'd look
at is, do you take time out? Do
you chill out? Because if your
brain focuses on one thing for
so long, you become blind to
that one thing. What you need to
do, take that bit of time out,
take the step back, review your
calls, shake it off, and then
simplify everything. Throw
everything overboard. Take it
back to the bare bones of your
job and the bits that are
enjoyable and almost like a
fresh start with it. But there
is also a shelf life to an SDR,
the just is, we know this,
there's a shelf life within a
company to an SDR, what do you
think a shelf life is? Varies
from SDR to SDR, I get that, but
it's very rare. You see somebody
smashing the numbers inside out
non stop for more than three
years, and it won't. And
I'm guessing, when you speak
with managers that have this
problem, that's the advice you
give to managers on how to help
their SDRs break this monotony
and keep going. Well,
the first advice I'd give to
managers is what conversation
you've already had with them.
And it's amazing how many
haven't even had the
conversation, they've just
guessed at what the problem
might be. Or they don't see it
as burnout. They don't see it as
monotony. They see it as oh
well, they're lazy, or I need
them to have more passion. And
it all comes from somewhere,
doesn't it? Nobody. And here's
the thing, this is what I do say
to managers straight away,
nobody went to get a sales job,
went through the interview
process, decided to take this
challenge on, and on the first
day, thought, you know they're
making the sandwiches and
they're ironing the tie or
whatever it is, and they think,
you know what, I'm going to go
this sales job. I'm going to be
shit. Nobody went into sales
with that. Everybody has gone to
a sales job thinking, I'm going
to wear money, I'm going to be
really good, I'm going to get
loads of sales this is going to
be great. Nobody intentionally
gets a sales job and wants to be
shipped. Something has happened
along the way, and that is
either they've not been coached,
supported, trained, managed, or
it's not for them. Some people
aren't going out for it, but
this has to be recognized and
dealt with sooner, rather than
later. So what are
the telltale signs that a
manager can look for to
proactively spot this before
it's too
late. Activity levels starting
to drop. Call length starting to
drop, was a huge red flag for
me. You know, call volumes gone
up, but call length, average
call length has got down. That
means they're going, I ever
next? They've just lost that
thing. So the the call rates
going up, but their average call
length is going down. It's
amazing. I hate KPIs, because
people manage with them, which
is a dreadful way to manage.
People, but as a trainer, maths
doesn't lie, and you can spot
patterns and where people are
challenged by that. So if I'm
seeing somebody's making 150
dials a day, and their average
call length is a minute and a
half, but they're not brand new,
and there's a there's a decline
in that, right? They've hit that
point where they're just bored.
They're going through the
motions. They're not engaging,
they're not trying. Have they
come close to burnout on that,
or have to come close to that
monotonous cycle?
Fascinating. I agree with you on
the KPIs, but I can see why.
Like you say, the math doesn't
lie, and it helps you figure out
where to spend your time, to dig
deeper. You just can't make a
decision at that.
Don't manage people with KPIs.
Yeah, coach and support people
with KPIs. You know, first thing
I'll look at when I go and meet
a team. So here's, here's Sharon
his call stats that they've got
from whatever system that
they're using, if I can look at
right? They've done 60 calls
today. Their average call length
is five and a half minutes. But
they haven't booked a single
qualified meeting. Well, they
haven't got a problem saying
hello, starting a call, having a
conversation, getting past early
objections, wherever there's
something going wrong at the end
of those conversations, because
nothing's coming out of them. I
can spot that just from the
maths, before I've even met
Sharon, or here's Sharon. She's
done 180 dials today, and her
average call length is 28
seconds, right? You're not
getting anywhere near a
conversation. Let's look at your
call list, your sheet, your
messaging, your voice tone, your
how you're opening the call up.
Could do that before we've even
listened to a call, yeah, but
that is not management. That's
coaching and development and
support. It's using the data to
find the clues where to spend
your time. Exactly the clues are
either. So here's what, here's
what I want to focus on now,
leading training and coaching
sales teams. Yeah, let's look at
it. First of all, from
inheriting a thing. So you you
inherited sales teams a couple
of times, by the looks of it,
yeah, it's all. We've built them
around me or whatever, but I've
had sales teams. Yeah. What
advice
would you give to someone that's
about to inherit a sales team.
Straight
advice is put your ego in the
bin. And this is the thing.
Quite often people have
inherited a sales team because
they're a good seller, which is
no reason to give somebody a
sales team, because it's almost
the opposite skill set that you
need. So one put your ego in the
bin. You're now a leader. This
is not about you at all. Yes,
you might have been good, but it
doesn't mean you can tell
people. Well, what I did was, if
I were you, I'd that's the last
thing people want. So one, you
got to put your ego in the bin.
It's not about you. Two, you're
probably going to make less
money than the people sat in
front of you. Good. If you're
helping them make loads of
money, you're being a good
leader. Yeah, you'll, you'll get
your benefit at some point. Next
point I make, don't do anything
when you start. So many people
go into a leadership position.
They want to put their stamp on
it, don't they? This is how a
lead. We're going to change
this. We're going to do that
differently from now on. Stop
observe, get to know your team
first. What's going right?
What's going wrong? Who are the
different characters in there?
Just take a period of time to
observe and reflect. Great
advice. Give me a mistake you've
made when you've started
managing a sales team that
you've inherited.
You know what? Really, honestly,
I've loved the attention and the
title and all the stuff that
goes with it. It's, it's ego
led, yeah, and I've, I've tried
to lead before now by telling
people what to do. I've tried to
lead by just do it my way. Trust
me, I was really good at this.
I've led by incentive,
ridiculous incentive, which
doesn't work. I've led by do
this, or I'll shout, you know,
I've made every embarrassing
mistake in the book. Why?
Because it's probably how I was
led. This is where we see sales
leaders come in. Is you lead,
how you were led? And my first,
in any way, sales leadership
role I came out of, in
hindsight, a very masculine Wolf
of Wall Street Style, scream if
you want to go faster culture.
That was how I was led. You
know, I was brought up with
buyers or liars close them or
they close you, either way a
sale is made. Give us a date, an
expiry date, and it was all
banging fists on the tables and
all this real macho sort of
culture. So that's how I led. I
cringe looking back at how I
used to act with people. Why?
Because it made me feel better
about myself. It made me feel
important. What a Biff, What a
dreadful way of looking at
things. Yeah, when you look at
all the best leaders you've had,
and this is one of the stories,
one of the questions asked at
beginning of a lot of training
when we're talking about sales
leadership, isn't, name your
best leader, name your best
manager. Name your favorite
teacher. Everybody's got a
favorite teacher, haven't they?
Who's your favorite teacher?
Mark? Can you
remember? So I probably go back
to I think about this person a
lot. Actually. It's weird to ask
that his name was Mr. Brace I
think it was in year four. So
long, long, long time ago. Yeah,
but I remember Mr. Braceford
more than most teachers, primary
school teacher, obviously. What
is it about Mr. Braceford that
stands out to I
felt like he was I felt like he
was a big champion for me. So I
was the youngest in the class.
July, baby birthdays tomorrow. I
was the youngest in the class. I
I wasn't very bright at that
age. Obviously, it's an easy
joke to be made about not being
that bright now, but we won't go
there. I remember there was just
certain things I struggled with,
like, like spelling longer
words, reading out loud to the
class, but I always felt like he
put his arm around me, Tom was
gonna be okay. Always fed back
to my parents that, you know,
look, he's struggling with this,
but he's trying really hard. I
believe in Mark, I remember once
in particular, it was a really,
like daunting experience. We had
to write an address like you
would in the letter. And if you
think like the way the address,
it kind of goes in dense and in,
right? And he had it on the
board, and he said, I want
everybody to write this address
on a shit paper exactly how you
sit on the board. And I remember
kids didn't do it exactly how it
was on the board. They kind of
wrote it straight so, you know,
first name, address, all in a
straight line. And he walked
around and he just started
going, wrong. Start again,
wrong, start, again, wrong,
start. And I remember like just
every time he said wrong, he was
coming towards my desk, and I
thought, I've not done it
perfectly. Mine's not quite
indented. And he went over. He
went nice effort mark. And I
remember thinking he's let me
off there. It was just something
in that moment. So, yeah, like,
I just felt like he he's looked
after me there, he helps me out,
he supports, encourages me, etc.
So, yeah, I'd say Mr. Braced.
Well, two things here. Then one,
if Mr. Brace is still alive,
do you know what I'd love to
find? I just know how to spell
that last name. I'm still not
very
good at spelling. Have you gone
and told him I wouldn't know how
to find it? One Amazing Thing to
hear of somebody, by the way,
you made a massive impact on my
life. Yeah, let's do that. The
second thing is, you championed
you. Yeah? He gave you great
feedback, and he made you he lit
up the room for you one day.
Yeah. Wasn't that what a great
leader does? Yeah. So when
people are looking at wanting to
be a sales leader, especially
various simplest exercises,
who's your favorite teacher? Why
do that? Because they're the
earliest leaders in our life.
They form a lot of ideas about
great leadership without us
realizing it. Whereas we think
of sales leadership as get sales
results, get the numbers in KPIs
reports, it's not at all. It's
you are there to help those
people in front of you be the
best that they can be at their
job. It's all about them. When I
look back to my earliest days of
sales leadership and team
leadership and everything, it
was all about me. And I
absolutely cringe. I remember
one day putting up, printing out
the day before call times and
sellotaping them to the walls of
the office, to name and shame
people. What a dick. But you
were given a senior job, a
leadership job with zero
training, zero accountability,
zero coaching. You were good at
doing that. Do this. Of course,
it falls apart.
I talk about this all the time,
like that. You're great at
sales. You get promoted, but you
don't get the support in being a
great leader. So it is that do
what I did, because that's what,
you know. How did you make that
switch from being your own
words, bit of a dick here and
there, making those mistakes to
get it right? How did you make
that switch?
You know what? There's, there's
a time that really stands out in
my mind. We went, I took, at the
time I was, had a head of sales
training for when I say B to
part of bt. Bt is a massive
beast. Yeah. So it was web
clicks, advertising, online
advertising, SEO, all that sort
of thing, B to B and I took some
of the sales team to an external
trainer that the bigwigs had
brought in who were going to
teach us how to coach, and it
was just a dreadful day. So I
was in there with this team of
people. This girl came in very
pleasant, but things that stand
out, she is mad in it. She had
no shoes and socks on, and she
sat there with smelly feet in
this room, and I could see my
team were going, what? What's
going on? Like, you know? So
she's lost the room already.
Then she spent the first half
hour just talking about herself
and her IB for holiday. And then
she get really condescending,
and everything my team would
bring up about how we do a sales
approach, how we do whatever.
Oh, no, you don't do that.
Really. And she was losing the
team really badly. And we got to
one point where I took this
trainer to one side, and I said,
I'm really sorry. I'm taking my
team out of her. And I didn't
know, I suddenly felt quite
paternal towards them. I
remember saying, we're going,
we're not we don't have to. It's
a waste of our time. We don't
need this. You don't have to be
spoken to like that. We're
going. And I suddenly felt that
felt right. That was the right
thing. And you know when things
just click in your head and I
was I need to be more paternal
towards them. I need to put them
first. I need to have the
wherewithal and the freedom to
go, No, this is my team. This is
what's going to be best for
them. Everybody above me. You've
put me in this position to lead
them. Well, leave me to it, give
me some feedback. And I took
them out, and I wrote a very
politically worded email about
why we'd done that, and the
feedback I got was absolutely
the right move. Very well on
like you showed leadership. And
I was like, right, I kind of get
it now it's not about me, and it
kind of built up from there.
How easy is it for you when you
work with sales leaders? Because
typically when a sales team is
underperforming, yeah, I look to
the sales straight away. Yeah.
How do you help them go on that
journey from realizing that and
actually changing because it's
not their fault. They've been
put in that position because of
their ability to sell, but now
they need to change. How do you
work with them, to change the
way in which they approach their
job to get the best out their
team?
Yeah, it's a challenge, isn't
it? So here to build the first
challenge is she's really the
sales leader that's involved in
the decision to bring you in in
the first place. Oh, yeah. And
how I operate is, I'm going to
find out what your problem is
first, and then design and build
training to solve that problem,
not just here's a course on this
that's pointless. And quite
often we find out your sales
team are actually quite good.
They're just not being led
particularly well, and you've
got to be careful with that
conversation. So the first thing
we look at is, and the first
look at is and the first bit of
discovery we do is tell me about
how often you give them
feedback, how often do they
review their own meetings, their
own calls. Show me their action
plans that they've got. What are
they each working on personally?
Right now, none of that can be
delivered. All right. Tell me
more about that. Has that ever
been in place? Tell me about how
you get led. How do you get
coached? When do you get
feedback as a leader? And we
just try and bring this
consciousness up of, oh, there's
this whole layer of support
missing right now. And then. The
second part is, we will not sell
your training if you don't take
follow on coaching. We've got to
embed it or a program for that
company to embed the training
afterwards.
So I think I know the answer,
because I'm with you. Stand
Alone training doesn't work. No,
you need to follow on coaching.
But how are you absolutely
strict? As you will not sell or
stand off training no matter
what the circumstance without
the follow on coaching?
No, because you can operate a
business like that, right? We
will say, Here's your follow on
coach options. This is why you
have it. What we are strict on,
though, and we very openly say,
if you just buy a one off half
day course to solve a big
problem, keep your money to
stick in plaster. It just
doesn't work. Because if it did,
why wouldn't you spend 50 quid
on Amazon, buy everybody a book
and hope they read it? Because
all you're doing is hoping
they're going to use the
training. It's exactly the same
thing. What we hear is, Well, if
we could just do a course on
this, everything will be fine.
No, it wouldn't, because that's
just not how it works. How are
you going to embed it? How are
you going to follow it on? How
are you going to do this? Now,
if they want to do it, that's
fine. You know, we're a
business. At the end of the day,
we'll sell the training, but we
will sell it with the open eyes.
We'll tell you right now, this
won't work.
I think the problem there. And
tell me if you think I've got
this wrong, but the sales leader
just lives too much in a month
to month, quarter to quarter
cycle of what can we do to get a
quick win, to get a quick fix?
They're not thinking, right?
Let's grow our people, because
we are going to get off this
hamster wheel every month, every
quarter being a slog. Let's grow
our people. It might not have a
massive impact immediately, but
it will change the game 612,
months time, but that's just too
far away, and we live to this
target on a monthly, quarterly
basis. And they go for the quick
fixes. I often see sales leaders
when they opt for growing the
people, the people that they
tell me aren't good enough, they
lack XYZ skills, or give them
more leads. They go for more
leads because they think, well,
just quickly, there's more
volume. And I always say, but
you're just giving people that
ill equipped more things to muck
up with.
Yeah.
How often do you walk away from
a deal because you just get a
feeling from the manager? This
is a waste of time. They're the
problem.
Oh, yeah. And there's red flags
that over the last 13 years,
I've started to spot straight
away. Here's a big red flag, and
without shooting myself in the
foot for business, when HR
contacts me about trading.
Right? And the verse, All right,
what's made you first think that
you need to invest in training?
I've been asked to find some
training, right? This is a tick
box exercise, isn't it? So HR
can say we've done training, and
it's short termism, and I get
it. Amount of people that that
will get inbound, looking for
training, right? Well, we don't,
we can't really take everybody
out for half a day. Well, if
your business model can't
survive when you invest in your
team for half a day, there's a
much bigger challenge going on
here, isn't there? There's a
much bigger problem going on
here, that if you can't take the
team out for just half a day to
do long term investment and
develop them, then we need to
dig a lot deeper on that. And
yes, there is a cost to a
business on taking people out to
train them, but all that says to
me is, you don't really believe
in the power of the training.
Let's talk about training and
coaching. First of all, I feel
like I have a very clear,
distinct definition of the
difference, yeah, but I want to
hear your definition of what
difference for you between
training and coaching.
I've often tried to sum this up.
I heard, I don't know who said
it, so if I'm stealing
somebody's quote, I apologize.
It definitely wasn't me.
Training is answering somebody's
questions. Coaching is
questioning somebody's answers.
Nice. This is clear definition
for me. Training is taking some
people that need some new skills
and helping them develop those
skills and showing them for the
first time, coaching is
questioning somebody so they
come up with the answer
themselves. So it's more long
term, it's embedded. It's making
them realize, actually, you
can't do this already. It's just
getting out of them.
So let's imagine we are a sales
manager. We've got that team,
and they resonate with the
following. You know, every
month, every quarter. It just
feels hard on what it should be.
It's a bit of a slog. We
sometimes get there. We
sometimes don't. Sometimes we
overachieve, but it hamster
wheel. We know that we want to
change this. We need to grow the
team, their confidence and
competence. What is the key to
successfully training and
coaching a sales team.
Million dollar question. If I
could answer it in a sentence,
I'll be sat on a yacht doing
this interview right now. There
is no silver bullet is one, so
let's strip that right back. You
mentioned two things there,
competence and confidence. Yeah,
let's put confidence in the bin.
Okay? It's a made up word.
There's no such thing as a
confident person. We're just
more or less confident in
different situations. So first
of all, I wouldn't even consider
looking at the confidence piece.
Confidence comes with feeling
comfortable knowing what you're
doing. Yeah, Confidence comes
with being in a situation that
you're confident in. So right
now we're in this fabulous
studio that you build in this
great stuff. Say I was an
unconfident person. I didn't
want to pick up the phone, I
didn't want to ask deeper
questions. I didn't want to ask
for a next step, because I'm not
confident. Suddenly, a tiger
walked in this studio now, and I
was the only person to have seen
it, I wouldn't go, well, I won't
mention that tiger, because I'm
not very confident. I'd suddenly
go, there's a tiger. Yeah,
everybody out suddenly. I'd be
really confident. Why the
Situation's changed. Don't worry
about confidence. First, change
the situation, and the
confidence comes. How do you
change the situation where you
have to deal with the world as
it is, not the world as you'd
like it to be. So first of all,
you've got to put to one side,
what are your perceptions of
what's going on and what's
actually going on? Because
there's no point dealing in
perception. So point A What can
you actually observe, not feel
or perceive or have an opinion
on, and that means one record.
Are you listening to what's
actually being going on? Have
you got your ear to the ground
on what's being said and done?
Not the feedback on it. What's
actually being said and done?
Are teams meetings being
recorded? Are you on the road
with your team sitting, watching
what's going on? Are you having
meetings about CRM and pipeline
and questioning, okay, you've
put them at 80% tell me what's
going on, why they're 80% Oh, we
got on really well. They had
nice biscuits, right? This is
all perception. So rule one is
you've got to deal with the
world as it is, not as you'd
like it to be, and that means
you've got to either get the
tech or find the way to observe
what's actually happening with
your team, all training and
coaching has to start from that
point, or you're just going to
end up in an echo chamber. I
love that. One of the questions
I like to ask sales leaders when
they when they tell me the
problems their sales team have,
I like to say and just to
understand, do you think that to
be true, or do you know that to
be true? And it's amazing. I
think that's true. So one of the
challenges that I I hear from
sales leaders is, let's move on
from they they've been promoted,
and they're great sales rep, and
they lack knowing how to do it.
But actually it's the challenge
of managing and training and
coaching salespeople. So the
different personality. T's a
different needs, a different
skills and competence gaps. You
know, lots of the persons might
be similar in terms of level of
ego, etc, but it is just, how do
I take let's just say the
average person's got 10 in their
team, yeah, but it's two between
eight and 12, right? Yeah. How
do they approach that? Lots of
people just opt for the blanket
approach a man in a room, woman
in a room, on Zoom, whatever
teaching the same thing doesn't
work because of the different
needs the room, the different
egos, different personalities.
How does a manager break that
down and create a successful
training and coaching plan?
It's a great question, because
you and we've said we said it
before, and I know there's lots
of different iterations of it,
isn't it, but managing a sales
team is, is trying to get cats
in a basket. Well, the baskets
on fire, and you're in a bed of
nettles and just a swarm of
wasps has just been released
into the office. But it just
isn't, you know, we're just
dealing with people here. So how
do you build it? Well, first of
all, first question I ask in
most training situations, how do
I benchmark it? I'm doing
observations, so I'll go right.
Point A is, this is what I've
observed. Point B, what would a
world class sales team do?
That's point B, the bit in the
middle is what that training and
coaching program needs to be. So
this is what we've observed. And
if you dotted everybody on a
line, there are different places
on that line. But a is what's
been observed, that is actually
happening now, and how different
is everybody point B, we have to
agree, what would a world class
sales team look like? What would
have to be different here to be
at the other end of the line,
and then everybody, individually
has got a different way to get
to be. So some might need really
intensive one to one coaching.
Other people just need a nudge
here and there. Some people just
need a wake up call. Here's a
bomb. You could probably half
the size of your team. Some
people shouldn't be there. It's
a really horrible thing for
sales leaders to hear, but most
sales teams could get the same
results on about 50% of their
account. How often
do you recommend that case by
case basis? Isn't
it? But isn't it amazing? You
see a lot of teams lose people
and oh well, we'll just infill
for now, and nothing changes.
Look at lockdown. How many
people got furloughed, and then
sales leaders went, Well, you've
not actually been here for three
months, and your sales results
haven't changed. What have you
been doing? You know, a lot of
people got found out that way.
And I know that's a really harsh
message, but it's, it's a fair
message. Really see what's going
on. Talk
to you about the lone wolves,
the sales reps that do things
their own way are often here.
Managers describe those people
in the team, and they don't know
what to do with them, right?
They say, don't think they
respond well to training and
coaching. They're they're sort
of hitting their number here and
there. But equally, they're
vulnerable, because they could
just leave at any point and they
rely on them, etc. What would
you say to a manager, how to get
the best out of that person and
train and coach them and work
with them?
Lone wolves. I love lone wolves.
I love seeing what makes them
tick. It's usually a defense
mechanism that's making a lone
wolf tick. They're terrified of
being found out, or they've put
this ego up as a helmet against
what could come in. They could
find other than all very good
you have some lone wolves. And
we all know these people. You
never see them. You never hear
them on the phone. You never
know whether they're out meeting
on Zoom or whatever. They're
just, what are you doing? Like,
why don't we fire this person?
Every month they hit quota,
like, they always bring them. We
don't know how they do it,
because some people just fly
under the radar. How do you deal
with these people? Well, one
realize that, and this is where
you've got to coach everybody in
a team is sometimes your lone
wolves or your big hitters, or
your people that are fine, or
whatever you scratch a
millimeter beneath the surface,
they're an absolute mess. Quite
often. I'm sure my sales coach
you get this is, oh, we just
want to focus the coaching on
these people. These people are
doing fine. So what would be the
expense to the business if you
lost the people that are doing
fine? Oh, well, actually, one of
them brings in 30% of the year's
revenue, right? Let's start with
them, because if you lose them,
that's going to have a massive
impact. And you go out for
coffee with them, and you have a
chat, tell me a bit about this.
How's that working out? Blah,
blah, and you find out the two
weeks off handing the noticing.
But they never have that chat.
They never get looked at. They
never get taken out for the
coffee. Why? Because they're
always doing fine. They're a big
hitter. They love it. They're
doing great. Be really careful
with them, because these are
humans. They're going to be
fragile. So with your lone
wolves, with your big hitters,
with whatever you've got, to
treat them the same as everybody
else, just a good coach should
be able to adapt their coaching
style for the person that's put
in front
of them. Fascinating. I think
that the challenge you see there
is the lack of confidence, yeah,
to take that lone wolf on. But.
Particularly when, if they're a
lone wolf and they're in the
business, it's because they're
doing
well, there's some phraseology
in there, isn't it? Take them
on, really. People see this is
going to be adversarial. If you
only ask questions, you cannot
be adversarial. It's only
adversarial when you tell people
what to do or give them advice.
Nobody wants advice, do they Oh,
if I was you, I do. Nobody wants
that. Put your head in the bin.
But if you ask somebody a really
good question, it's not
adversarial, you'll make them
think. And you know what, they
won't respond at first anyway.
But you cannot not answer a
question. You can't not answer a
question, who sang thriller?
Don't even think of the answer.
King of Pop. Yeah. You can't not
think What did you offer
breakfast? Don't even think of
the answer. I didn't have any.
You can't not. Yeah. I was
running a session the other
week, and we were talking about
questioning, skills, coaching,
questioning and discovery
questioning. So Ross, let's talk
about some questions that are
nothing to do with sales. Try to
not answer this question. So,
right. Okay, we got right.
Let's, let's do some slightly
deeper questions. I'll ask you
them now. Mark, okay, you don't
have to answer them. Okay, what
if you put on hold in your life
that you shouldn't have done
losing weight? There we go. So
it's not too deep a question,
yeah, what sort of person do you
know you're capable of being
that you wouldn't want to be?
Oh,
this is deep. What sort of
person am I capable of being
that I know I wouldn't want to
be. We can obviously edit out
the thinking time.
Well, no, I think the thinking
time is great, because if you
don't need thinking time, it's
not a very good question. So if
you think about when you're
coaching somebody, if you're
asking questions that are at the
front, yeah, have you got
glasses on? Are you wearing
shoes? Have you had a good day,
how do you think you're doing?
They're just answering straight
away, because you're not
engaging them. They're not
making people think, yeah, if
you ask a question, where you
have to go in your hard drive?
So 90% of the human brain is
hard drive. Everything you've
ever thought, smelled, touched,
experienced in your life is in
there. Challenge is, we've got a
shit RAM. We can't access this
stuff very easily. Then
randomly, you'll be in a
department store or something,
and you'll smell something, and
your brain goes, Oh, Christmas
Day, 2010 what? And smell can
bring back of it. Everything's
in there, in the same part of
the brain where all that stored
is where your emotions live.
Now, if all decisions are
irrational. Which they are, all
decisions are irrational. So
best definition I've ever heard
of what a decision is. A
decision is a prediction of how
you're going to feel. So think
of any decision you ever make.
It's a prediction of how you're
going to feel. So for what sort
of coffee would you like? Right?
You're predicting how you're
going to feel when you're
drinking that coffee in the
future, when you're having that
tell me about your ideal
holiday, or what holiday should
we book? We'll book that one.
Why? Because I've predicted how
I'll feel sat on that beach.
Doing that, here's a menu.
You're predicting how you're
going to feel when your food
arrives, when you eat it, when
you taste it, when you feel
full. Everything is a prediction
of how you're going to feel. So
it's an emotional decision. Only
a good question can get to that
part of the brain where the
emotions live. And it's the
emotion that will make a
decision, and whether that
decision is to buy something as
a salesperson or to change
something as a sales, person
should so a good coach, a good
leader, doesn't need to be the
best salesperson. They don't
need to have the answers. They
need to be really good at
helping the person you're
talking to come up with the
answers. So
was that almost like the point
then when the first question
just gave you an answer the
second question, I really
struggled. I was trying to think
to you've had
to use your RAM to go back into
the part of your brain where
emotions and memories live,
yeah, and thoughts live now
sometimes, and this is the bit
that I love. When you're
coaching people, especially,
they can't find the answer in
there. It's in there, yeah, they
grooving around. And they go, I
just don't you know what will
happen. Three days later, up
comes the answer. If you ever
listen to a song on the radio
and go, Ah, I loved this. Who
was this by and you just can't
remember the band's name, and
you carry on with you day, and
that's it. Three days later,
you're having a shower or
something, and you go, Rem,
where the hell's that come from?
The answer just pops into your
head. Second you've been asked a
question that part of your brain
just keeps working on it. So if
you've got your lone wolf, if
you've got your big hitter who's
not sure what to do next, get
better at asking them the
questions that will make them
think, because they're the only
person that's going to change
themselves. Can't convince
anybody of anything. Here you
go. Mark, you've got a day and
you can have a day out. Okay,
yeah, you can go wherever you
want for this day out, within
budget and physics, yeah, yeah,
a favorite place, but it's
entirely up to you. The weather
can be as great as you need it
to be. And you can invite
anybody you want to come with
you on this day out. However, at
the end of the day, wherever you
are with the people that you've
gone with, as the sun's going
down, it's going to be your last
day. You're going to die that
evening. This is the last time
you're there with these people
ever. Where'd you go? Who'd you
bring with you? I. And as the
sun's going down, what do you
say to them?
That's it out. You actually want
answers that
no, but you'll have one. I'm
sorry, I feel emotional, but
you'll have an answer at some
point it comes in. Why? Because
it's a question. That's the
emotional part of the brain.
That's where we're going. Yeah.
Now imagine if, in sales and in
sales coaching, you can help
somebody feel what it would be
like to work with you. Feel what
it would be like to have their
problem solved. Feel what it
would be like in three months,
once this big, awful problem's
gone away, well, they're now
coming up with that decision to
buy or to change their sales
approach. Why? Because a
decision is a prediction of how
you're going to feel. If you
can't help somebody feel, you
can't help them predict how
they're going to feel. There's
no decision there to be had, and
all a great coach is doing is
help somebody make the decision
to change. And a lone wolf can
make that decision to change, a
top hitter can make that
decision to change, but until
they make that decision you
mentioned before, Mark, I hope
you don't mind saying that,
putting off losing weight, yeah,
until you've made that decision,
it'll never change. I know
people who are trying to quit
smoking, but they've not quite
decided that they want to quit
smoking, yet they'll never quit
smoking. So lone wolves, top
hitters, run the mill, whatever
great coaching in salespeople is
questioning their answers, not
answering the questions, because
that's where all the good stuff
lies.
What? What an amazing bit of
dialog you just given us there.
Yeah, incredible. I want to
start taking back, because I'm
still just emotionally thinking
about this day. It's so funny,
the day changed in my mind,
because first I was thinking,
Oh, just go somewhere with a
wife. Well, actually, my first
answer is, do so by myself. And
I thought, oh, no, should
probably take the wife along.
And then when I heard the MB, I
was like, well, I need my kids
there, you know? And now we're
not doing anything for me and
the wine. We're doing something
for the kids. You know what I
mean? Like, what a great
question. Really sort of gave
her on
detail, on sales questions. I
don't want people listening to
this going in this meeting
today. I know. So here's one
funny. I was doing some training
the other year. Great group of
people around the table. We were
just talking language skills and
everything about sales is the
use of language, self
development is its use of
language, getting success is
just the use of language.
Selling anything is used
language. Customer Services, use
of language. And there was a
fabulous girl in this training.
She was really into it, you
know, she was, like, really
soaking it all up and asking
questions, really, really like
this girl. And we did this
questioning stuff around the
table. And I asked this girl,
she was only in her early 20s,
and I eyeballed her and just
said, what if you put on hold in
your life that you just
shouldn't have done. And took
her about three seconds, and
she's no word of like, she burst
into tears and ran out the room,
and I was like, Oh, I've broken
one of your team. I'm sorry. And
she went out, she quit, she
actually quit her job. And I was
like, I'm not being funny. That
is an extreme reaction, like,
I've never seen that before. So
turns out, when we dug down a
little bit, she'd been in a
relationship with a few years
with a guy, and then she met
him, she was about to go and be
a dancer, and she put it all on
hold for this relationship. And
like, four days before she
happened to be asked that
question by me, this guy had
finished her and left so where
I'd asked, What is a back of
brain, deep, emotional question?
The answer wasn't back there. It
was right. It was right at the
front. Now, if you ever get
asked a deep make you think
question, and you can answer it
like that, you should probably
do something about that. Yeah,
if it's that forefront of Mary,
you know these really common
questions like, What would you
regret most in life if you never
did anything about it? If you
can just go, I've just got to do
this really quickly. If it's
that near the surface, go and do
something about it that's
clearly really important to you.
So yeah, learn really, really
cool questions.
Let's, let's start to wrap the
conversation, Chris, because I
feel like I could spend another
couple of hours with you, and we
will, we just won't record and
edit and we'll just go the pub
and do it. What's the most
common flaw you see in sales
managers using the
myth that they haven't got time
to look after their team,
because everything else should
be secondary.
What's the one thing you've seen
sales professionals add to their
game that takes them to the next
level tech
that helps them get rid of
admin? Got an
example for us, a
lot of companies now using some
advanced AI tools. We've been
speaking to companies about it
to do so many layers of your
sales admin and so much of your
CRM edition that they're
spending more time having
conversations. Everything that
isn't having a conversation
isn't a sales activity. I mean,
we know these stats have come
out. What is it from sales loft,
32% of a salesperson's time is
actually spent selling well,
like. You're a race driver, I
want you racing the car. If
you're a mechanic, I want you in
my engine, doing stuff. If
you're my salesperson, I
wouldn't have in a conversation.
Biggest thing you can do as a
sales manager is take everything
off your sales team that isn't
sales activity.
When you said tech, tech, I was
expecting you say otter. What
piece of advice would you give
to someone looking to step up
into their first leadership
role. Oh, ask yourself, why you
want to do it? Do you really
want to be a leader? What's your
moment? Is it because you see it
as you get the glory and the
honor? Because I'm now a leader,
it's a dreadful reason to do it.
You're probably going to take a
pay cut, and it's no longer
about you, you know, just really
look into it first, because it
can be a poison chalice. And
then last question, this is
specifically for you. Okay, I've
been told that you love
LinkedIn. Posts about bringing
the value, leaving the value.
Tell us about that.
Okay, so I think what you get in
that as a whole is there's a lot
of buzzword bingo suddenly on
LinkedIn isn't there. And we
found this out when we did
clubhouse. If in doubt, just say
value. And it sounds like I've
got an answer to this, yeah. And
I think we really need to stop
this crap. Yeah. We need to
drill down on value, lead with
value, increase the value. Just
bring value. And when you go,
Oh, give me an example of what
you mean, it's just buzzword
bingo. They can't, yeah, and I
kind of get where it's coming
from, but let's just fancy talk.
Doesn't you know what's other
buzzword bingo that's been
happening recently values them a
massive player for me at the
moment, and I pull people on it
straight away. Give me an
example. Exactly what do you
mean? And most people can't,
because they've just heard
somebody else say it. Ah,
there's a phrase at the moment
for when you're going in as a
sales director, but you're not
really there. You like
parachuted in. Well, parachute
in is another one. Fractional,
fractional. Suddenly,
everything's fractional, and
it's just trends, isn't it? And
I'm all right with that, but I'm
a bit of a curmudgeon old git
Now,
Chris, genuinely, really, really
enjoy this episode. There's been
moments where you've shared
insightful stories, funny
stories. There's moments where
you've really made me think and
feel a little bit emotional with
some of the questions you've
asked me, like you've taken me
back to when I was in school,
absolutely terrified of Mr.
Brace, of walking around the
classroom. You made me think
about how to spend my last down
Earth. There's so much more I
know we could get from our time
together, but let's bring it to
a close. We can always do
another episode. How can people
find more of you and your stuff?
I'm all
over LinkedIn. You can't miss me
on there. Look for Chris Dawson
on LinkedIn. Go and find the
sales Dojo podcast that's on
Apple, Spotify, Amazon.
Everywhere you go, go and look
for sixth door, which is the
worst business name ever,
because nobody, everybody, how,
what? What is it? Floor, sixth.
How do we spell that? Just
Google. Sales Training,
