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There are those in the spotlight, and then there is Everybody Else.
Hosted by Wes Luttrell (Indiana-based artist growth coach and label founder), Everybody Else is a podcast dedicated to the invisible people who make music happen. Featuring solo commentary and insightful interviews with record label execs, tour managers, music tech founders, producers, venue managers, and a slew of others, this show's mission is to pull back the curtain on the lives and ways of thinking of those who make up the modern music ecosystem. New episodes streaming every Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (00:00)
This is the Everybody Else Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03)
who are the invisible people of music today and what do they do to make music happen? Because behind every great artist, song, venue, festival and music service, there's a tribe of people who will dedicate their lives to work that if done right, will never appear to have happened. There are those in the spotlight and then there's everybody else.
What is the role of a tour manager?
Speaker 1 (00:33)
I mean, that's a loaded question. ⁓
Speaker 2 (00:35)
But
what's like, give me like a description of the job.
Speaker 1 (00:39)
So there's basically two parts to the job. So you're starting, like, you know, when I get a tour, like I'll use my last tour as an example. I knew that I was going on that tour in October ⁓ or, you know, late October, I accepted the position. ⁓ And so starting, you know, a couple months before it starts the pre-planning and, you know, do we have a bus? How are we getting around? You know, every tour is different. You could do a van, bandwagon.
to bus, to fly dates, to private jets. It's like that is kind of the order. So, you know, I was like, do we have a bus? Yes, great. What is our merch deal going to look like? How are we getting that? So it's kind of just like starting to put the pieces together.
Speaker 2 (01:25)
Who are you talking to at this point? The band or the manager or all?
Speaker 1 (01:29)
⁓ with smaller bands, you might be talking to the bands more. ⁓ but my involvement with the bands before we go on tour is like, do you need anything for the rider and stuff like that? So I'll get into that. But then once it gets to be a couple months before you start booking flights for people, you know, I talked to my production manager, some, some bands don't have a production manager and the TM does everything. But luckily we have an amazing production manager. So I was like, Hey, you know, do we have a rehearsal space? Where are we rehearsing?
we're okay Phoenix. Okay, great. We're gonna rehearse in Phoenix I start getting everyone's flights booked, you know while the prices are still low Then then we start kicking into gear. I have the production rider with I'm at this is all remote. This is all this is all before we even leave. Yeah So, you know, I'm I talked to my production manager and we do a production rider, which is basically everything that we need from the venues
Speaker 2 (02:13)
Are you with them at this point?
Speaker 1 (02:28)
and also giving them all the information that we have. So like, this is what we're carrying. We don't need this, we don't need that, but we need this, we need that. ⁓ But that's mainly done by the production manager. I have done that in the past, but normally there is a production manager that will do that. ⁓ But my portion is like hospitality, security, you know, all of that stuff. I put that into the writer as well. So I'm working on all of that with my production manager, with the band. That's when I start.
talking to the band about their preferences, my crew and the other parts of the band, you know, cause we, this past band had two principals and we had two backing artists.
Speaker 2 (03:09)
And they're all, you're, are you handling logistics of the openers too?
Speaker 1 (03:13)
No, no. Well, no, not really, actually. I helped them out because this was our opener's first tour. So I helped them out. ⁓ Lovely folks. But sometimes, if it's a huge tour, you're not getting help by the headliner if you're an opener. But again, it depends. So I then put together a hospitality rider, which is the famous We Don't Want Red Ebonem's Van Halen situation. ⁓
Speaker 2 (03:41)
What's
typical right, okay, wait.
Speaker 1 (03:42)
I
was going to say fun fact that's not like actually something that nice people do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like my band this year, we had, ⁓ a lot of specifics cause we would have a lot of lunch stuff on our rider. But when I was with the pretenders last year, mean, our rider, our crew had a larger rider than the band. So it really just depends. And we had a large crew. had more crew than we had band. So it just depends. So now all of that's happening.
Speaker 2 (03:46)
about water and the...
Speaker 1 (04:09)
And now I'm also coordinating with, you know, smaller tours, I'd be booking all the hotels. But on this tour, I use two travel agents. One that I was loyal to in the UK and another one that I was loyal to here. And I use both of them to get me the best deals on hotels. So now I'm going through and booking hotels for all of the days. While this is also happening, I'm also routing the tour. So I'm trying to see, okay, well we have two days off.
between Salt Lake City and Texas, where am I going to stop?
Speaker 2 (04:45)
So at that moment or even before that I guess you're talking to the booking agent or your
Speaker 1 (04:50)
No,
I'm doing all of that. But you're looking the show's already booked. OK, so I get it. I'm sorry. I'm not really giving you the good time. But the shows I have nothing. Yeah, I have nothing to do with the booking. Gotcha. Absolutely nothing.
Speaker 2 (05:03)
That's already established before any of this begins. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:05)
Yeah, so like when I accepted the offer in October, they had a loose routing. ⁓ Routing being the shows that were booked.
Speaker 2 (05:13)
Those are holds on venues and like.
Speaker 1 (05:15)
holds or have already been confirmed. So I'm saying, ⁓ so here's the general routing. Sometimes, especially that far out, will change. And they're still kind of malleable. But once it gets to be the time to actually sit down and route the whole tour on my end, all the shows are confirmed. It's now my job to determine, OK, when are we leaving this city to get to this city enough time?
For example, we had to drive from Austin to somewhere in Florida or Tampa. And I was like, where can I stop in between Austin and Tampa that's going to give my band and crew a place to rest that's nice, something fun to do, you know, whatever. And we ended up stopping in Mobile, Alabama. anyway, so it's like I'm, I'm having to decide all of those things. ⁓
Speaker 2 (06:10)
You're like you're like ⁓ it really is hospitality in that sense too I hadn't thought about because I was I was curious like what are you guys doing days off? But you're building that into the fabric of the journey that like well We're gonna land in a spot where like you guys will have shit to do
Speaker 1 (06:24)
And see now that's just something that I like to do. It's not what every tour manager does. Sometimes, I mean, I've been on tours where the tour manager will just, okay, we're just going to stop at like some random place, park in a mall and just like, you're like, what, what? Like we don't have a shower. We don't have a hotel, nothing. So, I mean, the way that I like to tour manage is I like to make sure that not only the band, but also the crew and myself have a good quality of life because it's really hard. ⁓
But a lot of people don't realize that. They're like, have a good trip. I'm like, no, it's not a trip. I'm working 75 hours a week with one day off. But anyway, so that's all the pre stuff. It's actually funny. This might be controversial. But I taught a chat GPT bot. I made it my own bot. And it helped me route my tour that I was just on. I gave it the DOT regulations from the bus.
from the bussing company, because you also have to worry about the bus driver getting enough rest and not driving over a certain amount of hours and miles. So I gave it that. gave it, we leave at this time. We have to be there at this time. We need to be in places that have stuff to do, blah, blah. And it actually helped me pick places on spots where I wasn't sure where to stop.
Speaker 2 (07:41)
This isn't, well maybe that is controversial to somebody, but to me this is how to use AI in a way that is beneficial. Because then you use this as like a framework, right? To build off of or discard that but keep this. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:52)
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. you know, it gave me a couple options and then I would look at the hotel rates for those three cities and I'd pick the city that has still within my qualifications, but the hotels weren't $400 a night. They were 150. I'm like, okay, we'll do that. So that's all the stuff that I do beforehand. There's also more, you know, I'm coordinating with the agent to do ticket buys. Where are we going to have the guest list? Are we going to cut down the guest list numbers? Like it's just
business management I'm making. I actually didn't have to make the budget for this tour. luckily our manager made the budget. But all last year, all of 2024, I was doing every single budget, every single part of the budget for the pretenders for every single tour we did. So I had like four budgets last year. ⁓
Speaker 2 (08:29)
Like, where's the butt? Yeah.
In the cases of the bands that you've worked with, this is a little digression, like who is fronting the money of the tour or is there any money being advanced? Like is it labels? Is it the bands putting up the money? Where does like the initial, who's paying you for the first three months of your job?
Speaker 1 (09:01)
So that's great question. ⁓ So last year, luckily I was with the pretenders. So there was a lot of cash to be had, ⁓ thankfully. So that wasn't really an issue. ⁓ The management and the business management were like trying to keep me reined in. I don't have to be reined in, but they were like, you know, don't be spending all this money because it's there. ⁓ But Chrissy didn't really care. ⁓ But this year, you know, the manager was like, hey,
we need to get the cash wired for the first couple shows directly after the show because we have a limited cash flow. So it's mainly coming from the band, basically all the time it's coming from the band depending on how big the tour is. ⁓ If it's a super small artist, the label might be doing it or the management might be fronting it. Just to get them, I've been on tours like that too actually where they just try to get them on the road and they get the ⁓ guarantees and they're fine. ⁓
Speaker 2 (09:58)
this.
Speaker 1 (09:59)
But the past two artists I've worked with, it's been very different, but similar in the way that the band was fronting the money.
Speaker 2 (10:05)
Because by this point, those bands are into their journey where they're their own little business.
Speaker 1 (10:10)
They all have business entities. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Last year, I was going to say last year we had she had two business entities. So I had two separate business managers and all that. So it was a very complex organization.
Speaker 2 (10:14)
So at this... sorry, go ahead.
How, like, when you're inserting yourself into a new band ecosystem, like with all these moving parts, how do you just become familiar with it all? You just dive in and start just talking and like, how do you, cause I'm just thinking like, it's like getting a new job, kind you're like, where's all the fucking, like, where do I get this at? Like, does anybody know where this at?
Speaker 1 (10:45)
That's the hardest part of it. I mean, I've worked with 11 bands so far in my career. In seven years, I've worked with 11 bands. It's every single time I tell this to my husband, every single time I start a new band, it's like starting a new job. And it gets to be exhausting. And that's why I decided to kind of take a break from touring because it was just like, I don't want to have to control, not control what I'm doing, but fit into someone else's framework.
anymore. It gets to be exhausting. But it's exactly that. You kind of just have to dive in and be like, OK, how do you want this tour to work? Because this is how I do it. It helps if you're established in your career because you have a way that you want to do things. And it helps when people are flexible as well. ⁓ Like, Slaybells was very flexible with my workflow when I worked with them in 22 and even more so now because they were like, well, you've earned your stripes even more in just three years. ⁓
Speaker 2 (11:42)
Do
you have any way of like, I don't know how to say it, almost like leaving the situation better than you found it? Like do you like leave behind any like, here this is for the next person who takes over the tour management or like, does that make any, is there anything that you do with that?
Speaker 1 (11:59)
That's a good question. Well, I mean, well, I, I personally have, I live and die by the Google drive, ⁓ which has actually helped. But, ⁓ I mean, like with the pretenders last year, I was going to be with them this year, but I decided to do sleigh bells instead. So because of that, I had a whole Google drive folder of just all the stuff that I was using. And I passed that along to their TM who was, who was going to be the PM who I'd worked with in 23. So
Speaker 2 (12:26)
That seems like a highly valuable thing. If that person wants that. But it seems like a really valuable like, ⁓ cool, you got some shit together already.
Speaker 1 (12:35)
Yeah, yeah. mean, it's not something that I'm intending to do. It's like, I'm not making these with the intention of giving them to someone else. I'm making them for my own benefit. And then if someone needs them, it's there. But when you're on a tour, you're never, unless it doesn't work out, which I've been on tours like that too. And you're like, I never want to do this again. You're not expecting there to be someone else after you. you know, again, unless something else happens. Like with Slaybells, like I knew that I was going to come back with them.
But then when the pretenders clashed with it, I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. You know, and then I had to make that decision. Same thing with the pretenders. Like I, I knew that I was coming back with them in 25, but then it clashed with Slaybell. So was like, don't know, you know, so you never really know what's going to happen. And that's another reason why it's just so exhausting to be in this career sometimes, because you never know what's around the corner. You never know what's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (13:24)
That's interesting. you get older, do you seek, I don't know, like stability or just like routine? Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:33)
That's exactly why I'm not touring. That's exactly why I took a job in town. Cause I was like, you know, I just got married. I got home from my last tour four days before I got married. And in turn I was planning my entire wedding. The last two months before my wedding, where all the planning really happens, I was in the UK and Europe. So I was planning my wedding six hours ahead, six to seven hours ahead of time. It was very difficult.
Speaker 2 (13:59)
Luckily you're a planner. Like luckily you have this. Yes, yes. can like it's an event. I guess your wedding, but.
Speaker 1 (14:03)
Yes, at least.
Yes. I my mom was helping a lot. My dad helped a lot when it got closer and so did my husband. ⁓ But it was just a lot. mean, I'm taking calls and taking meetings with people in the middle of my show that's happening at 10 PM. And I'm like, what is going on? It's like, you know, four o'clock at home and they're like, I hope you have a good evening. I'm like, I want to be in bed right now. You know? So it was, it was a lot. And you know, I started
doing martial arts here in Nashville. started doing Muay Thai and it's just like, I did get married. I'm just like, I just, I want to be home. know? And a lot of people my age feel like that in the, the industry. A lot of people, once they get to be 30, 35, they do, they, they exit or kind of pivot their career. So
Speaker 2 (14:52)
I always kind of, I've mentioned this before in several ways, I always growing up, I'm a teenager entering into college years and I wanted to be an artist. And I would see people who are running labels or doing just whatever job in the music industry. like, why would they want to do that? They were an artist or they played guitar. Why'd they give that up to do this? And then you think, well, there's only a small percentage of people who are going to go on to play guitar.
travel and do all this, a career out of it. But then you just, your life demands other things of you and you want other things. And it actually like, you become really excited about like running a venue in town or like you become like really enthused by this other thing. Cause you've done all that other shit.
Speaker 1 (15:38)
I
mean, like I love touring. It's like this past tour that I did was the best tour I've ever done. Like I've said that to them. It's not a secret. I wrote it on my Instagram post. It is the best tour I've ever done. And I'm very grateful that that was the experience. If every tour was like that, I would not give it up. However, the last three days of that tour, I was so burnt out, even though everyone around me was, you know, lovely and we the best situation.
We had the best fans, the best venues, know, everything was top notch. It still got to me after six weeks. I'm like, I cannot sleep on this bus. I'm getting four hours of sleep. I have a fitness tracker that I wear every day. And it's like, what are you doing, girl? Your recovery is at 20 % every day. What's tea? And I'm like, I don't know, babe. Like I can't sleep on this bus. So it still gets to you, though, even if everything is just tops.
depending on the way that you're traveling, I mean, it'll still wear you down. like last year, I kept telling my band this year, but I was like, I'm very grateful. I had a five-star hotel every night. But in turn, we were getting on the bus after the show, sleeping for five hours, however long it took us to drive to the next city, immediately getting off the bus, checking into a hotel, and then I had to wake up at 10.
or nine to get ready to go work. Luckily my band, got to chill cause that's their, that's what they get to do. But again, having interrupted sleep every single night, no matter what level you're at, unless you, unless you have fly dates, even that's exhausting. Cause I did that in 23. So, you know, it just gets to you after a while, even if it's a, an a plus situation, which this was.
Speaker 2 (17:10)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:25)
Everyone at the end of the tour was just like, they were walking around, we all looked like zombies coming off the bus. It was actually kind of funny, it was a lot.
Speaker 2 (17:32)
Yeah. it's so. So how do you I mean, just kind of jumping around a little bit. How do you when those final kind of stretches or maybe even like half? I don't know. At some points where like people start getting tired or burned out or like maybe even after like a bad show or just a rough night. How do you because it almost feels like you're a little bit like a coach or like a little bit of like you just keeping the fucking thing going. Everybody, let's go. How do you personally stay? OK.
We're going to wake up tomorrow. We got to get come on. Like, let's go. Like, what do you you have to bring some sort of energy constantly, right?
Speaker 1 (18:10)
Yeah, I mean, that's it's very difficult because you're going through something internally and you're like, I'm exhausted. I want to go home. I want to be home really badly. Yeah. But you don't want to bring that to everyone else. Again, that's just that's me. That's just I'm speaking personally. I'm not talking about every tour manager because everyone's different. ⁓ But, you know, like my guitar player was going through a hard time on the road and I just said to him, I was like, listen.
you might not want to go out on stage right now, but the clock is always ticking. The seconds will always go by and eventually it'll be tomorrow. So just kind of, you gotta just think of that and then that'll get you through. that's the, that's honestly one of the only things that I think about when I'm in those situations. And that's what I impart on other people. It's just like, you like, you, like you can, you can not want to do this as much as you want. And you might want it like the seconds are dragging by.
But the clock will always keep going. So you just got to keep that in mind and the day will always be done. It doesn't matter if it's 7 p.m. or it's 4 p.m. and it's soundcheck and you're just like, fuck, I don't want to do this. The day is always going to be done eventually. my whole thing is I don't want to bring how I'm feeling to the crew. I used to not be like that. This has come with a lot of growth and being in a very, very professional atmosphere last year and the year prior.
Speaker 2 (19:18)
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:32)
You know, I think it's very important to divorce how I'm feeling to how, what I present to the crew because then, or the crew in band, cause that could really bring down an entire, entire organization. ⁓ but you know, I'm also not like extremely positive all the time because that's not real. ⁓ so, you know, I, I learned last year, my artist hated when everyone kissed her ass, you get off stage and they're like,
my God, it's the best show ever. And she's like, no, it's not. No, it wasn't. That wasn't my best show ever. Don't bullshit me. And so I didn't, that never happened to me, but I would see and I would hear her say that and I would hear her tell other people that. So it really helped me rein it in. Like our guitar player this year went into the crowd during a show and he came out after and he said, Jer, how do think that worked? I was like, it didn't. It didn't.
You know, it kind of threw off the whole flow of the show. It was cutesy because it was a sold out outside Austin show. Cutesy idea didn't really work for the gig. He was like, you know what? I thought the same thing. I'm not going to do it anymore. I'm like, you know what? I think that might be good. It's not that it was bad, but I don't think it worked. And so a lot of people along the lines of your question, a lot of people will actually prefer the honesty. But again, it depends on who you're with. And I was close enough to these people that I could tell that to them. Sometimes I would just be quiet.
Speaker 2 (20:56)
And if you're consistent in telling the truth, then that becomes your character and then they can rely on you in times of question like, hey, what do you think?
Speaker 1 (21:05)
Right.
And not even just to be a dickhead. You don't have to be a truthful person all the time. Because that's good. know, like even last year I would be like, hey guys, like that was an absolute ripper of a show. Like that was fantastic. But I wouldn't say that after every show. Yes. But in the past I would. I'd be kissing the band's ass, blah, blah. I've just had a lot of growth within the past, you know, couple of years. Yeah. Which I'm grateful for. Yeah. That's a long answer to your question.
Speaker 2 (21:30)
That what I think that that's like that that seems like my wife's a real estate agent, for example, and in the beginning she would let kind of the client or the you know, the home buyer dictate the experience because like I don't want to piss him off right, but now she's very much like that won't work or we I'll let you do that, but let me just tell you how this is going to play out and I can tell that some of the especially like older guys are hard as to sometimes about buying houses. Sometimes what I'm into but like
they will actually end up respecting her right into the experience and being super grateful, even if at one point it got a little dicey and there was some just like uncomfortable whatever, but it's like, okay, I get it. Yep. And you're consistent in this behavior. Like this is who you are. You're somebody who tells the truth and like, mean what you say.
Speaker 1 (22:15)
Yeah,
because I mean that's I hate everyone makes fun of me because I feel like well They tell me that me being from New York is my whole personality, but it is yeah where it's like that's a very New York City Qualification like you're gonna be direct some people I know from New York are absolute dickheads and they'll just be direct all the time for no reason Yeah, but it's the way to use that directness is what makes New Yorkers so Different than everyone else. Yeah, and that's what I can't try to bring
you know, and it's sometimes it doesn't, rubs people the wrong way. Even if I'm saying it in the right way, they just don't want to be told no, or they don't want to be told something different. But I just, that's how I roll. And that's what I do in my career. And so it helps and it really works when it works, which I've been lucky to have with the past since 2023, really the second half of 2023, I've been, it's been a good, a good time.
Speaker 2 (22:54)
That's your flavor of...
So going back, land, you begin, like let's say tour begins, you roll up to a venue on a regular day or whatever, you get up, you're starting to get ready for work. When you roll into a venue, what are you doing? Like take us in there, me in there. You're talking to who?
Speaker 1 (23:26)
to
what's going on. So it's actually funny. was telling my mom before you got here that, ⁓ my roots, got into such a routine on the road that yesterday I felt like I was lost. It was my first day home that I had like by myself. And I was like, I actually did my routine without even knowing it that I had on tour at home. ⁓ but I would wake up at like 10 ish. Now this is just for last year. ⁓ or the last tour, I'm sorry. Last year was a whole different animal.
Speaker 2 (23:47)
What's that?
Speaker 1 (23:54)
But normal bus tours, this is what I would do. I wake up, you know, 10, go out to breakfast to get coffee at 11. Our loading was at. I would go out a lot with our front of house engineer. OK. Or I would go out with a guitar player sometimes. But yeah, most of the time I make a friend on tour and we we kind of just do everything, which is great. Yeah. Yeah. My front of house, Jonathan, was hilarious. So, yeah. So we would I would wake up at 10.
Speaker 2 (24:02)
Are you taking somebody
Speaker 1 (24:23)
Go out at 11, you know, ish with whoever, ⁓ get back for load in at one o'clock. Then load in starts at one o'clock. I immediately get my stuff. The guys or whoever's in the crew starts unloading. they meet the local loaders or whoever's working. go into the venue. I interface with the person I'd been advancing with the whole time or whoever our day of show contact is.
Speaker 2 (24:47)
What size venues is like Slaybill's playing at this?
Speaker 1 (24:50)
We did everything from 500 to 1600. 500 in like Canada. Some Florida venues were lower, but then we sold out Webster Hall in New York City, 1600 people. We almost sold out Union Transfer, which is 1400. We were like 200 away. Sold out 930 Club, which is over a thousand. So was Washington, DC. Best club in America.
I stand by it. I love that place. Fantastic. Especially from the touring side. I've never seen a show there. But from my end, the way that they take care of people is the gold standard. It's great. Sweet. So I would interface with whoever my day of show contact was. Then I would find the production office, set up my computer. Then I have a whole checklist of what I have to do. I have to print.
Speaker 2 (25:22)
I've never been there.
Speaker 1 (25:46)
certain things. I have to send certain things to the venue. I have to do this, do that, do this. My job also on this past tour was I had to count in all the merch. I wasn't selling merch. I wasn't managing it, but I had to count everything in. I would then go to the merch table, count everything else. So we have we have a, for this tour, we had a remote merch management company who then printed it, organized shipping, organized everything, pony club, amazing.
Speaker 2 (26:13)
somebody
else. ⁓
Speaker 1 (26:14)
Yeah.
So our, our rep, Mike, he would find people in every city, either friends or people that were recommended and then come and sell for us. It works great like that, but I've, I've done it where the tour I was, I, the tour manager was also the merge manager and then having some random person come in and sell or have someone from the venue come in and sell and you make zero money. So that's a whole other thing. If you have someone that's confident about
the band or likes the band or likes the merch rep or works for the merch company, you're going to sell way more money.
Speaker 2 (26:47)
Well,
and like if you're coming in from the merch company, they're incentivized to sell the merch, Versus I'm here, I'm just standing here.
Speaker 1 (27:00)
And they a flat rate plus tips. So they're making more money than anyone on tour, which is great. ⁓ So yeah, so then I'm setting up the merch and then like this past tour, did playback. I luckily I didn't have to. So ⁓ I'm triggering all of the tracks during the show. So if I mess up, which I did on one of the last shows of tour, if I mess up the whole show stops, which is exactly what happened when we were.
Speaker 2 (27:18)
during the show.
Speaker 1 (27:29)
Where were we? We were in Minneapolis. It was the second to last show of tour. And I messed up royally, stopped the song in the middle of it by accident. ⁓ It was great. So anyway, so I'm dealing with all that. This tour, I didn't have to set it up, but in 2022 I had to set up the entire playback rig, make sure it worked. Did all of that. So a lot of, a lot of it's just, yeah, a lot of it's just like, especially right when I get in, it's just like,
I'm printing the set lists. I'm writing on the set list what I need to write on them. Cues for people, whatever they prefer on their set list. I was also coordinating with the house LD because we didn't have a lighting person. We had a ground package that was connected to our playback rig. So it was triggered by me pressing play, the lighting was triggered.
Speaker 2 (28:14)
Did they hire the outsource of company to put all this together than then you are going to run it on this.
Speaker 1 (28:19)
road. Yeah. So like our lighting was coordinated by our production manager, but it's this guy's Victor who works at squeak lights. He does, he did the band's package for out for years. Okay. But our production manager set up all of the playback and it had them talk to one another. Okay. So they're there. That's, that's, that's a production level that I am not familiar with. Like Ableton scares me. So I don't, I don't even want to touch it, let alone know about it. I do want to know about it because then I would learn.
still I just like I try to stay away from it because I have too much in my mind. Yes.
Speaker 2 (28:53)
That's like, by the way, I don't think that that's like a, everybody has that skill to be able to say, like, fine. Like to be able to, ⁓ give yourself boundaries is, is, specialization, think. Right.
Speaker 1 (29:08)
Yeah, I mean, this past tour I just was wearing too many hats to try to figure it out. Yeah. And luckily our stage tech slash stage manager slash catch all tech, Theo, he was fantastic at Ableton. Okay. So it gave me a peace of mind when in 2022 we didn't have anyone that was proficient with it. So I was stressed about it every single day and I would have to have people on speed dial to try to help me fix it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:33)
Is Ableton the software that everybody's are like that a lot? Is that the standard in the industry?
Speaker 1 (29:38)
Ableton Reaper whatever it may be but a lot of a lot of playbacks use Ableton. Okay, but I don't I don't know. Yeah, I truly don't know This is the first time I had to deal with it and I hope It's the last because I just don't I don't want to have to deal with that. Yeah audio is just something I'm not interested in Yeah, it's a whole world. I love lighting but I've just audio I'm not really interested in ⁓ but so speaking of lighting because we didn't have an LD so Victor had a cue sheet. Okay, and a
And I typed up a preference sheet from me talking to Derek, our guitar player, about it. So I'd print out that sheet, write my own notes on it, and then go talk to the LD and walk them through all of the lighting cues. And then at this time, it's basically soundcheck. Hopefully I've eaten. Who knows? ⁓ Then I'm at soundcheck. I make sure the band's ready. I make sure they're all good. At the end of the tour, our soundcheck for 15 minutes, because they were just like, ⁓ everything's fine. Woohoo. Yeah, everything was great.
Then after soundcheck, that's really the time that I have to chill. But also within that time, I'm greeting the merch person, showing them all, showing, getting them in, know, getting them a wristband. I send in the guest list as soon as possible because I don't like, I don't want to deal with it I don't want to forget about it. But literally all of this that I'm telling you, I had to write in a book or else I would forget. Like I do everything by hand except for when I'm like actually advancing and doing all that stuff. I have everything online and master tour, but
everything that I had to do every day was a checklist separated by things to print, things to send and things to do for tomorrow. Or else I would forget. I was forgetting at the beginning of the tour. Something would go missed and no one would know, but I would know. So I have like three hours to chill after sound check until doors open. Sometimes it depends. And that's the time that I would just like watch the Knicks game or watch a Yankees game.
or you know chill in my bunk but that was very rare because I never got really a chance to chill in the bunk because I just get constant texts. ⁓ But you know I'm just like off quote unquote but I'm available for anybody. Yes. I go get dinner whatever it may be. See my friends if I'm in a city with my friends in it. Nice. My family I went out to you my family when they came.
Speaker 2 (31:53)
When you when you're in that moment that gap moment the text are rolling in. Do you you can look at it and think this that doesn't matter. OK. Let me get to that. Like you can sort really quickly like because I'm sure like do some fires pop up that you need.
Speaker 1 (32:09)
Always.
I never leave a text unread when I'm on the road. was telling my husband yesterday, I was looking at my phone, I was looking at the TV and I like, cannot look at this TV anymore because I've been looking at my phone every single second of every day for six weeks. And I have an app that blocks my social media after a certain point because I just would scroll all day and I'm like, this is really bad for my mental health.
So, but I looked at it one day and I was like, I wanted to see how many notifications I got from iMessage. I had 350 notifications from iMessage one day. And that's just the day that I checked. And that's, so that's 350 text messages. That's just text. It's not calls. Cause our guitar player would almost exclusively call me. God bless him. My lead singer would almost exclusively call me when I asked her a question. So that's not even that. You know, it's not calls. It's just texts. So.
you know, when I was in the UK or when I was in the US with my UK based band, it was WhatsApp and iMessage. So it was just all over the place. So, I mean, I'm never going to be like, hey guys, I'm going off site, screw you for three hours. No, people do that, but that's not me. You know, I'm always available for people to my own detriment, but that's how things get done. You know, if someone says to me, hey, can we open doors early?
and I don't answer and they open doors early and something's wrong, then it's my fault. So you always have to kind of be available, which again is very exhausting.
Speaker 2 (33:43)
What did people do back in the day when there was no cell phone?
Speaker 1 (33:47)
I talk to my dad about that all the time. Cause my dad, we talked about this before we started recording, my dad's a touring or was a touring drummer for 30 plus years. And I actually have his old tour books from when he was on tour in the eighties. And I talked about this all the time, actually this tour when I was on the bus and you had to be extremely professional at all times because you couldn't reach out to a venue two months before and they just say, piss off, babe.
for a month and a half and then advanced the show six days before. happened to me, this happened to me multiple times on this tour. Cause you had to typewrite everything and copy it and make sure everyone had this tour book. Yeah, things change. But you don't have that instant access. So you had to be professional. The bands had to read the tour book. They had to know where they were going. Now it's a whole thing where I use master tour, which is a program on the computer free for cell phone users.
but I have to pay for it. that's, it's like the schedule. It's just like, it's all the information that you need. It has a schedule. It has all the venue information that I have to put in. So that's what I'm doing while I'm advancing the shows before I leave. I'm not even clocked in. not even on the road. I'm at my home office, but I'm putting everything in on master tour. So then when we go out on the road, the band has a quote unquote tour book, but it's constantly, it's digital and you could constantly edit it.
Speaker 2 (34:49)
the band.
Speaker 1 (35:16)
So that's the problem is that you don't have to look at your phone. You could just say, Hey, Jerry, what's happening today? And I'm like, you know what? You know where that is? Master tour. And it's like a funny thing on master tour. They literally have stickers. I went to the office in Chicago. They have stickers that say check master tour. And it's one of the only stickers on my computer because that's the first thing that someone has to see when they walk into my production office. So you're going to ask me a question. Go look at the work that I just did a month and a half ago. And it's right there.
Speaker 2 (35:46)
Yes. Back in the day, they had a physical book.
Speaker 1 (35:47)
So it's like.
It's like a, like a bound, like you type, write it like type, wrote pages and then they would go and get a bound wherever you bind staples. But I don't know if staples was a thing. They would go get them bound and it would be literally a flipped paged book of like, here's the venue. Here's how long it's going to take to get there. Here's the restaurants that are close. Here's this, here's that. And all of that was done over the phone. So then when you get on, when you get on the, to on the road, that okay.
we have to change our load in time. you have to then, the venue would have to call the TM, change the load in time, and then the TM would then have to tell everybody, I'm assuming, and then they would all have to change it in their book. Instead of me just saying, texting everyone, hey, the load in's changed, and I just updated digitally on Master Tour, or I don't even have to tell them because they're not paying attention. So it's just very, there's a level of professionalism that has been lost because of digital.
Like because of your phone, because everything's flexible, because it can be. In the past you had to call.
Speaker 2 (36:52)
When I think about the past, always think like, ⁓ was probably like they were flying by the seat of their pants doing all this shit. But back then, you're right. just organization wise and like we're going to show up to this venue at this point at this time. like we show up, they're going to be expecting this and we're to be expecting this. Just a level of trust that is built into like that relationship versus and then there is no like fixing it on the fly necessarily. Like they're like, you know, like what you said, like there's no like last minute we're going to text about this or
Speaker 1 (37:09)
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:21)
Switch this up.
Speaker 1 (37:22)
Yeah, well, I mean, I'm also just assuming, but I'm basing it on, what my dad's told me about his past tour managers and road managers ⁓ and just seeing the tour books. Because it's just like, wow, this is a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (37:37)
Yeah,
that's really interesting. So what do you do? So well during this show you're cueing stuff. You're on. You're not like...
Speaker 1 (37:43)
No, no, no, like I and during the show I'm also texting the LD if they're what they're doing isn't right. So I'm looking at the lights. I'm making sure that what they're doing is right because our guitar player had a very small list, but a very specific list where it's like this is what has to happen. I don't want any light on me. So like sometimes they would put all the spotlights on and he turned to me and be like, you know, what's going on? So then I have to, I have already caught it before he did. So I'm now texting the LD. Can you please turn those lights off?
Hopefully the LD is looking at their phone. Yeah. You know, so it's like, I'm not only like during the songs or when I have the breaks. Yeah. Otherwise I'm sitting there with my hand on play waiting for the guitar player to give me a cue or some songs. Some song. Yeah. Some songs, like when there was one song where the guitar player would leave and our lead singer would talk about something, I would know when to cue it because of just based on what she would talk about. And she like, this is for all the
Speaker 2 (38:28)
No, like
Speaker 1 (38:40)
people that have been here forever, you this song's called Kids. And then as soon as she said that, I would press play. So she didn't even have to give me a cue towards the, you know, first third of the tour. So yeah, so then like, it would be funny because our, our stage tech knew Ableton. He set it up every day. So the times are, have to go to the bathroom. I'm like, Theo, I have to go to the bathroom.
I would only go to the bathroom for songs that were direct, like, cause there were some that would just go right into another. I'd be like, Hey, I gotta go. And he's like, okay. I'm like this next song, as soon as it's done, just press play if I'm not back. So it's like, you know, I'm coordinating when I have to go to the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (39:15)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because I was curious about that. Just like on the drive down here thinking about what the job would be. And I'm thinking like, once you leave, like once you're there, I bet you just work the whole, like you just work until you get off tour. I would imagine that's just, you're just on, even if you're resting, you're, you're, you're like on like, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1 (39:37)
Yeah,
I mean, like this is also a very unique situation where all three of the crew members, myself included on this past tour, were wearing multiple hats. Like our front of house guy was also the monitor guy. Our stage tech was also the guitar tech, was also the lighting tech, was also the stage tech. know, so we were, it's a very unique thing. Yes. But you know, when I was with the pretenders, I didn't have to be there at load in. I would get there early, early being noon. Okay.
I would get there early just to make sure that I was interfacing with the venue and I had enough time for the security meeting because that was the most important thing.
Speaker 2 (40:11)
How big were those shows compared to what you were just on?
Speaker 1 (40:14)
⁓ I mean we had we split between headline of theaters and we did an amphitheater, but it was like two to four thousand cap theaters Okay, the amphitheater was ten thousand. Okay, and then we split between those or large clubs So we would do you know canes in Tulsa. It was like 2,500 I ⁓ think I don't remember but anyway, we were splitting between those headline shows and then direct support for Foo Fighters at stadiums. Okay, so
I thought about this while I was talking about the other thing, but conversely, when we were on tour with Foo Fighters, I never met their TM. I have no idea where they were. I don't know what their name was and that's no shade to them. Still to this day. I never met them. I was only dealing with the production manager who was lovely. So that's the degree of difference. Like when you're doing a small club tour, don't, you have to have multiple hats on because
Speaker 2 (40:57)
still to this day. Okay.
That's the degree of.
Speaker 1 (41:14)
That's just the budget. But when you're the Foo Fighters headlining a stadium, I'm not saying that that tour manager is not doing anything, because you are. But there's more people you could delegate to. So there's less that you have to do every day, which I learned when I was in Europe last year after our US tour. I begged management to be able to allow me to get a production coordinator, which is basically an assistant. And my production coordinator that I had saved my day. She would do
so much for me that it allowed me to be not I wasn't absent, but it allowed me to be chill. It allowed me to not have to run around every day because I was able to delegate tasks to someone.
Speaker 2 (41:55)
And then you're focusing on like not higher level, but just like you're able to see the playing field a little bit.
Speaker 1 (42:02)
I was able to focus on having a 30 minute security meeting because we needed to have that. I was being able to dedicate my time to my artist instead of, know, Hey, did my cruise Pepsi show up? Like, I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about, okay, how do we get these stalkers from not coming into the venue? How do I, how do I do this and that? You know? So it's like, it's just a level of, of touring.
You know, so it's just very different. It's very nice when you have people to delegate to. But I mean, I could barely delegate anything to my guys this past tour, because we were all doing so much. Like I felt bad asking them to bring the case of water to the bus after the show. I'm like, you guys have done so much all day. I feel bad asking you to help me. we were just, we were so tight like that. Like the band would help me bring stuff to the bus and you know, because that's a whole other thing. I'm stocking the bus every day with all of our hospitality.
Speaker 2 (42:59)
Stopping
somewhere, like you're stopping at Walmart or something.
Speaker 1 (43:01)
No, So what? So from the hospitality rider. So I would edit it every single. That's another thing I would do during this during the day. I would edit our hospitality rider based on our stock of the bus. OK. And then like, let's say like, so then that comes on the bus with. So like my my guitar player would exclusively drink Diet Coke, Red Bull and LaCroix every day. So I would make sure that and that was a non-negotiable. We had to have it. Sure. So I would make sure that after at the end of the show and I would have spin drift on my on my my little rider.
Speaker 2 (43:29)
My wife drinks shit on a spin.
Speaker 1 (43:31)
yeah, it's goaded. So I would make sure that all of that stuff, because the band's paying for it. So if we leave it there, A, it's wasteful. B, I don't want to waste. And C, we need it. So I would then bring everything to the bus and do bus stock right after the show was done. I would settle the show and then I got this enormous IKEA bag and I would just shove everything in this huge IKEA bag and then I would bring that out.
while the band is still cooling off in the green room, I'm cleaning it out and I'm bringing it to the bus. But when I had a production coordinator, I could delegate that to someone. But now I didn't. So that's why I felt bad. like, hey, I forgot the oat milk in the fridge. Would you mind bringing it after you shower? I just felt bad. So it just depends.
Speaker 2 (44:18)
When you're on those... So the travel situation here was by bus. the travel situation when you're with the pretenders is by bus.
Speaker 1 (44:22)
Correct.
as
well? So it depends. It depends. when, when we were in 2023, we had, I was a production coordinator at that point, but I was, so we had a TM who was basically PM, but he did all the PMing or production managing before we left. When I was on the road with them, I was essentially this fill in PM quote unquote. Like I don't want to say like I was doing a lot of production cause I, we had an amazing crew that basically did it all, but I was overseeing everything, but that was fly dates.
So we were flying to every city. Yeah. How does that differ? Well, I was with the crew. So we were flying to every city. And then we had two drivers. We had one for the crew, one for the band in Sprinter vans that were following the route. we would fly into, let's say, Minneapolis. The vans would meet us in Minneapolis. And then those would be our transportation back and forth to the venue or back and forth to the airport.
Speaker 2 (45:21)
Where's all the stuff?
Speaker 1 (45:23)
We had a, we had a, um, well for the, 2023, we had a box truck because we were doing 200 cap venues and insane. then direct support for guns and roses. So she, cause Chrissy hated huge, huge gigs or she hates them. So she doesn't like, she likes the connection of being in a club.
Speaker 2 (45:40)
What do mean she hates, like-
versus an arena.
Speaker 1 (45:45)
or an arena, stadium, even a large theater. She wants people to be right up there. She wants it to be like that authentic experience, which I really respect because that's why I started tour managing. Cause I love that direct. I hate seeing stadium shows. I'm seeing, I'm going right off here, but I'm seeing Beyonce. And I was like, the only time, the only way I'm going to see Beyonce on my birthday is if I have a pit ticket and I don't care what the cost. And guess what? I have two pit tickets. Cause that's the only way I'm going to a stadium show. But anyway, so she feels the same that way, but
So we were flying everywhere. And then we'd either be picked up by the van or my job on that tour, one of them was to arrange ground transportation in each city. So I have a ground transportation company that I would reach out to and organize all of that. So that was in 2023. Fly dates are awful because most of the time you could drive and it would be less time than it would be in the airport. But you're not going to put the pretenders in a van.
and have them drive for seven hours. That's just not, it's their comforts of the airport with the lounge and all that is way better. But then in 2024, when we were doing festivals, those were fly dates. And then when we were in the U S those were bus and then the band had hotels every night. The crew was sleeping on the bus until there was a day off.
Speaker 2 (46:52)
you
Speaker 1 (47:02)
And then in Europe and UK, we were also in a bus. ⁓ But that was a little easier to manage because especially in the UK, we were just doing day drives. So we would sleep overnight in hotel and then just drive a couple hours on a nice double-decker Cush bus. So that was easy. But again, it was the end of five months of nonstop touring. So I was just walking with my eyes closed, essentially.
Speaker 2 (47:23)
What, when you're playing festival dates, is that differ because, I mean, are you still communicating with hospitality, I guess? Like you're bouncing festival to festival, you have a trailer or you have like a spot to go.
Speaker 1 (47:35)
These festivals, it depends on what the festival is. Yeah, European festivals were interesting, but they always had catering there. The whole thing with last year was that we were strictly vegetarian. So I'd have to make sure that there was stuff for us to eat. ⁓ You know, there was a lot of idiosyncrasies that I had to deal with on that end ⁓ regarding hospitality and hotels and stuff like that. But, you know, I would talk to the catering and be like, hey.
You know, like in my advanced, it was in our rider in huge 24 point font. It read, I talisize. We are vegetarian. No meat. Yeah. You know, so I'd have to make sure they would know that, but festivals are always kind of chaotic because it depends on who's putting them on. US festivals are good sometimes. Yeah. know, Coachella is chaotic as hell. Stagecoach chaotic as hell. But the people that are putting it on always have great catering. Their staff is always great.
It's just the logistics of a festival is tiring. But then when we went to Europe, some of them were fantastic. Like the festival we did in Belgium, Werchterfest, amazing. But then some of these festivals in the middle of nowhere, France, were logistically insane. Like there was three inches, four inches of mud walking to the green room. And I'm like, hey, how are we going to fix this when my artist gets here? we're going to put wood chips down. What is that going to do?
Can you have cardboard? And then I would have to logistically fix that. So it was very different. But I just don't like festivals. That's just me. I don't want to go to them, and I don't want to work them. But some people love them. I don't.
Speaker 2 (49:20)
This episode of the Everybody Else Podcast is brought to you by the Victory Theater. I was talking to the director of the Victory Theater recently, Laura Malone, and her episode of the podcast is going out next week. Anyway, she was explaining to me that one of her big gets early in her career was booking Jason Isbell at the Victory Theater. And the real reason that Jason was interested was because he loves unique rooms and intimate settings.
Well, not everybody would call a 1900 seat venue, or know, a theater, intimate. If you've been to the Victory Theater, you would know that it is indeed a warm, intimate, historic, very unique environment that has been preserved for over 120 years. And if you need a night out, if you live in the region, the Southwest Indiana region, you need a night out.
Consider a show at the Victory Theater. Coming up later this summer and into the fall, we have The Magic of Motown on August 16th. It's cover compilation situation. August 30th we have Louis C.K., the iconic Louis C.K. We have September 12th, The Four Horsemen, it's a Metallica tribute band. September 18th, Monsters of the Yacht. September 27th, comedian Danny Hayes. And October 9th, Deanna Carter, she's in.
strawberry wine for all of you old country fans. Visit thevictorytheatre.com for all dates, all information, everything can be found there. And thank you again to the fine folks at The Victory for sponsoring this podcast. Now back to the show.
If we go back in time, how did you graduate at Belmont 2016? How does this, we're the same age by the way. How does this translate to your first gig or like getting into music? Like where does this journey begin from Belmont? What was it like at Belmont by the way?
Speaker 1 (51:12)
I did, 2016.
I mean, I barely had a relationship with that school because I just didn't agree with a lot of the things that were going on and I didn't like the curriculum. So I just kind of just used it to have a piece of paper. But it hasn't.
Speaker 2 (51:42)
Did
you sit in class mad sometimes about just like, and I know I this thing as Belmont, but like just in terms of schooling, I feel like I went to school for music and sometimes I would sit there really pissed off because I'm like, none of this has anything to do with what we're, what the world has.
Speaker 1 (51:59)
Let me put it to you this way. have two instances of this. The first one was in my publishing class. We spent an hour talking about the royalties that, that the person that sings the song that's on the bass that comes off the wall and sings to you. We learned about the royalties for that for an hour. I'm like, Hey babe, what about Spotify? Can we learn about that? No. Now the curriculum is very different because I've spoken to, I used to work at a bagel store and I've spoken to a lot of
customers that would come in there that were going to Belmont because it was located right across the street. I'd like, so is the curriculum still extremely whack? And they're like, oh no, well, we have this, this and this now. The second instance of this was I, okay, backstory. I started in artist management. My first internship ever was with, well, one of my first internships was with Slaybells Management just because I asked them, I asked Alexis in 2012, I'm like, hey, do y'all have a job for me?
She was like, I don't know, maybe I'll email my manager. And so she did, and that was my first internship. So I started in artist management. From then I had done a couple other internships in artist management. I get to Belmont, having been in artist management for three years at that point, ⁓ I wasn't getting paid to do it, but I was interning. My second to last semester at Belmont, I take tour slash artist management. They don't even have a real class for one of those, so they had to put it together.
Speaker 2 (53:13)
You already work it.
Speaker 1 (53:28)
I almost failed. I almost failed that class. Okay. I saved my final. It's somewhere in this house that I'm in my parents' house. I have it because I thought it was so funny. The final essay question was why write a paragraph on why a guitar player and a lead singer of a band should not date. That was the last essay question that I had to answer. And then, so I get my grade back and I'm like, why? I email my professor. I'm like, Hey,
What's T? Why did I almost fail this class when there was a guy in my class whose dad was high up on some label who knew the professor and he was a senior and he was graduating. I saw this man, I swear on my aunt in heaven, walk into the class, write his name on the top of that essay or write on his name on the top of that final, shake the professor's hand and walk away. So I emailed my professor, I said, hey, professor.
why did this guy that didn't even take the final pass the class based on nepotism? And then me, I have been in artist management for two years, three years at that point. I'm not saying that I know everything, but how did I almost fail this class? And the guy, he emails me back, he's like, you know, you know, don't let the discourage you, da da da da da. I'm like, you think that you have the power to discourage me? You don't, don't worry. Professor I won't name.
Speaker 2 (54:55)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:57)
You don't have to worry about it. Sure. But I'm just wondering what is going on here. Two years later, when I was direct support for, was TMing actually first of three for power more at sold out Barclays center. I sent him an email. said, Hey professor, guess what you didn't do. Discourage me and look at where I am. Sold out. Old out show at Barclays center. My band's on stage. He didn't answer me. He probably didn't even know who I was. So yes, I did sit at Belmont very mad. ⁓ so, but to get to your
Speaker 2 (55:15)
Yes, look at this photo.
Speaker 1 (55:28)
First question you asked.
Speaker 2 (55:29)
Real quick side note, what's interesting is like ⁓ I've had like a nephew who wanted to do what I did and go to school and I was like, yeah, okay, I don't regret going because it's hard to regret. Like it's hard for me to look back and like regret things because it led me to where I'm at. But I'm like, I don't think it's sweet. I wouldn't do it. Like if I was you in your situation, like it helped me because it got me here and there. But I'm like,
So the point is, I know there is a case to be made about having to do the thing, to have the paper to do the... I think a lot of jobs would require that in music now. Even my roommate, he runs PA for big people, he works at a company and he had to have a piece of paper to get in there, but it's like, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (56:14)
Yeah, mean, tour managing, the only way that having a degree has helped me is just saying like, ⁓ you went to Belmont. Do you know this person? Okay. That's really like, like I got, mean, the first, the internship, one of the most impactful internships that I've gotten in Nashville was because one of my best friends saw the posting on our Belmont job board and she was going to apply to it. And she was like, Hey girl, like I was going to apply to this, but this is way more up your alley.
and it was an artist management internship with Electric Lady Studios based in New York. They had an artist management arm. And from that, I got my first tour a couple of years later. So that is the most impactful connection that I've had from Belmont because, but I mean, if my best friend, she wasn't like, hey, I'm going to apply for this, but you know, screw you. If she wasn't the person that she is, would, who knows where I would have been. But that's, that's really the only way that Belmont helped me.
But still to this day, mean, they have not reached out to me at all about anything having to do with my career. It's like, you know, that school is just, I don't want to slam it, but I just, don't think you don't need a degree to be a tour manager. Cause like I said, I almost failed that class. I didn't learn anything, anything in that school that helped me except for maybe Excel and like accounting.
Speaker 2 (57:21)
I literally have no idea.
But
isn't that ultimately like, I forgot, that's why I told my nephew, I'm like, unless you're going to meet people, like unless the networking is the journey for you, like you want to go get all connected and network with alumni and stuff, then it would be worthwhile journey if that's what you, but there's other ways to do that.
Speaker 1 (58:00)
Yeah. I mean, like when I was, when I was at Belmont, they were like, you have to network, you have to network, you have to network, you have to network. And they made everything so transactional. And I know before we were, ⁓ before we were recording, was saying that I just accept everyone on LinkedIn. that's because I was getting, I'm getting a lot of requests. I'm not asking people to be connections on LinkedIn, but they were literally Belmont was telling you, if you don't request at least 30 people a day on LinkedIn, you're behind.
You know, they were just so transactional with their relationships and that's not how I am at all. But that's what college is for, I guess. But I'm not, I don't subscribe to that. I'm not going to network with someone just to network with them. Like I'm, if I ask someone some advice, it's never going to be like, thanks dude. And then I take it and run. Like that's, I want to form a friendship with that person.
Speaker 2 (58:48)
I
think that's the thing, right? Like I've thought a lot about this too, because I think that the word networking does feel transactional. It feels like we're going to go to a room and like, just talk about ourselves or some shit. I don't really know. But the thing that I feel like about meeting people is really about, just like follow your interest and your curiosity and let like, like, like I reached out to you. was like, I've been, I befriended you a couple months ago, but I was like, I've just been like from afar, just like witnessing your journey.
And I started this new podcast where I'm interviewing people who work behind the scenes. I think like it's an interesting journey you've been on. Like I would love to like have you on like this would be. Yeah. And it was and it's like I in that if you didn't respond, it's like, OK, I guess you don't want to. But but then it just like turns out that I feel like this is like a perfect moment to catch you between this part of your career and heading into the next part of your career as this like let's like fill me in. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (59:25)
And that's authentic.
Yeah, no, it's incredibly. I mean, I went to Brooklyn Bowl this morning to just give them my ID and get set up with payroll. And it's a very unique experience that I have right now because I'm on tour. I was on tour for six weeks. I come home three days later, I start production managing at a venue. So I'm essentially tour managing in a venue. it's I've also had six weeks to see what's good and what's bad from the venue side of what I want when I go into a venue.
What my crew wants when I go into a venue. literally sat down there with my crew and I was at 930 club and I was like, Hey guys, give me some, give me some things that you've liked when you walk into a venue on this tour. What is helpful to you? ⁓ we have four loaders that day. ⁓ you have, we have stage hands that pay attention. was one time a stage hand, Alexis asked our stage tech, the lead singer asked our stage tech to tape the front of the stage so she can see cause she was very active and would go into the crowd a lot.
All of a sudden, Theo's like, our stage deck was going to get taped. He comes back with tape. All the stage hands are taping the front of the stage. That's the only time that happened. I forgot what venue that was at. But I looked at them and I was like, that's amazing. And I took a mental note. So it is a very unique, a unique spot that I'm in.
Speaker 2 (1:00:59)
Yeah, very cool. OK, OK, so let's bounce back. you you you what is your your entry point is is artist management. Good in New York. Did you miss.
Speaker 1 (1:01:07)
Yes.
I, no, I was living in New York at the time. So I'm from New York city. So I grew up in Staten Island. I moved to Manhattan to go to school. I was going to school for two years or I was going to school there. I met, actually met Slaybells in 2012. ⁓ I asked Alexis after a show, like I said before, I asked her, I was like, Hey, like, do you guys have a job? I'm, I'm going to school for music business and I don't know where else to intern.
And she was like, I don't know, I'll email my manager. So she emailed the manager, connected us, and that was my first artist management internship. I worked there for two years. And then my parents were like, hey, we're moving to Nashville. And I was like, no, I'm not. I want to go on tour, like whatever. then, cause Alexis had offered me a position, I think if I'm remembering correctly on their tour. And they were like, no, like you're gonna, you have to finish school. Like my dad dropped out of college a month before he graduated to go on tour.
I was one of the first people in both sides of my family to graduate college. So they were like, I really want you to graduate, just graduate and you whatever. So I moved to Nashville. I had another artist management internship for a year and a half. And then I got the electric lady artist management internship. So I was in a lot of artists management, but with electric lady, I was literally just interning for a manager who then became a very close friend of mine who I actually just saw while I was on tour. But so she,
She kind of helped me kind of hone my skills a lot and I was very hands on with her because it was just her and I. So I was while I was working for her, was helping her artists that were on tour do tour books because they weren't on master tour. I don't even think master tour was around at that point, but it was like, you know, I was making Excel spreadsheets to do like the typewritten tour book, but I'm doing it on Excel or I'm doing it on Google drive or whatever. So I was.
kind of honing my skills in touring and knowing that I wanted to be in live music. And I didn't really at that point, nor to this day, really understand what an artist manager actually does. Because I was artist managing my band that I was in in college, but I was like, I'm not really doing anything. So I'm not sure what y'all do. No shade to you, but I'm not sure. Then I kind of gravitated towards the artist relationship, because that's what I really like, is dealing with artists and live music. Because I'm a fan of music. I was a fan of Slaybells.
huge fan. still my favorite band. So I love that. I love that artist to fan connection. And I love seeing fans like cry during a song because it impacts them so much. And I think that's what's so beautiful about music. So I was like, okay, well, how can I combine all of this? tour managing. So my, my manager knew that I wanted to do that. I graduated college. I did some odds and ends. got hired by electric lady on like a very low scale.
I was doing some things through them. They dissolved. I moved and did something completely out of the music business. I was working at a bed and breakfast here in Nashville. I was like, this is, this is whack. Like I just did not enjoy it at all. Sure. So I was like, you know what? I don't have another option. I don't know what I'm doing, but I can't stay here. So I sent them an email. said, listen, I'm quitting for this and that reason. Literally I sent the email, took a shower,
came out of the shower, got an email from my artist management, Kirby from our electric lady and was like, Hey, two of my artists need a tour manager. Do you want to do it? And that was the start of my career. Wow. Cause I believe truly if you shut up a negative door, a positive one's going to open. literally happened 30 minutes later. So that's where it started. I was a TM. did everything in a notebook. Poor, very poor. wasn't counting.
Speaker 2 (1:04:54)
Who was the, like a smaller.
Speaker 1 (1:04:55)
It's very small, very small. It was just me, the artist and the touring drummer in a van. No trailer, nothing. Like I didn't even know where we had to go when I crossed into Canada. I went to the tractor trailer side because we had merch. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Everything was done in a notebook. had nothing digital done, nothing. But then, you know, I did that. And then I did the next tour was I was an assistant TM and merch manager. And then I did
two more tours that year. The next tour after that one was the direct support, the first of three for Power More. I did one more at the end of that year. And in the beginning of 2029, I worked for a legacy country artist in a bus doing large theaters. So I really, I had like a small, a small, like 200 cap room to bus tour large theaters in one year. And then I was working with her until COVID.
Speaker 2 (1:05:46)
How did you get hooked up with her?
Speaker 1 (1:05:49)
Honestly, tell you, I have no idea. don't remember. I think I just got. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't remember. She was lovely. If she was still touring, I'd go out with her in an instant. She's it was, it was lovely. And the crew was lovely. Yeah. the only reason why I stopped is cause it COVID and then she stopped touring.
Speaker 2 (1:05:53)
about Leanne Wilmore.
Speaker 1 (1:06:08)
Yeah. It did. ⁓ I honestly, I think just like someone knew someone and they just emailed me that happens all the time. It happens all the time. It happened five minutes ago. Yeah. My friend texted me. So once you get your name out there, that's when they start rolling in. But I mean, I, I haven't gotten hit up basically all year.
since last year to TM anything, because I haven't been putting myself out there. So that's why it's just so frustrating. But, ⁓ but yeah, so then from that, then it was COVID and then I did the largest tour that I've done. I had done at that point, it should have been two buses and a truck, but it was post COVID trying to save money. I was with Old Crow Medicine Show for a couple of months. And then I went back to the indie scene and I did a bunch of bus tours and then I did Slay Bells in 22. They called me in 22 and asked me to TM them 10 years after I interned for them.
Speaker 2 (1:06:38)
Yeah, yeah.
Did you stay in touch with?
Speaker 1 (1:07:04)
Yeah, yeah, they were my close friends. Well, not close friends, but they were my friends. Like when I would go out in New York, like I would go out with Alexis whenever I would go back into town. Whenever they would come to Nashville, I'd co-see them. If they played in Louisville one tour and they didn't come to Nashville, so I drove to Louisville to see them. And it wasn't like a, I'm going to go on tour with them, like a fan thing. Like I'm just going to every show. It's like, I would just go and see them and hang out with them. ⁓
Speaker 2 (1:07:29)
It makes me think, because I've thought about this a lot recently, like this, I mean a lot of careers, but music specifically, because things evolve and people go in and out of stuff, ⁓ endurance, like persistence and endurance for time, just staying course, it seems like a good equation. I was talking to guy yesterday, he's like, yeah, I I just kind of think about just like you just keep going until, and like if you just keep being a good person, showing up and doing good work, like success is inevitable.
if you just stay going, but if you jump off the ship or you do something, whatever, it's like, yeah, I mean, you're not going to, or if you're not in it for the right reasons, then it's not going to pan out for you. But yeah, like, cause I was just saying like, yeah, you just stayed in touch as friends and then opportunity bubbles up out of that friendship.
Speaker 1 (1:08:16)
Yeah, because Derek, he said it himself. He knew that I was legit at that point. And so he was like, yeah, know, Jerry got her resume in order. She was, she was, you know, ready to go. So we were like, okay, well, we wanted to make a change. And she seemed like she knew what she was doing. So why not? So they really took a chance on me, but it ended up working out really well. But I had the exact conversation with my husband yesterday. You know, he's in kind of a transitionary period. He's not really sure what's going on. And I was like, listen, you have to be persistent.
You have to keep not annoying people, but you have to keep bugging them. You have to stay relevant because if you don't, someone else is going to take that place. Yes. You know, like I said, the thing about AI earlier, the reason why I did that is because I'm in a group chat with a bunch of TMS and they were, they, were having a discussion about, that problematic to use AI? I mean, it's awful for the, for the environment. So it makes me guilty. I don't use it a lot anymore now that I'm on the road, but you know, and then someone in that group,
said, we're not going to, AI is not going to replace a tour manager because that's not, it's, there's no physical connection there. AI is not going to replace tour manager, but tour managers that don't know how to use it will be replaced. it's kind of the same, the same idea of like, if you're not being persistent with someone, they're not going to have you front of mind. You're like my friend that just texted me five minutes ago, asking me if I was available to TM. She's a friend of mine. She consistently invites me to stuff.
Speaker 2 (1:09:27)
Yes.
Speaker 1 (1:09:43)
even though I'm never in town. She's also a tour manager. She tour manages Lainey Wilson. So she's all over the place all the time, but because we stay in touch as friends, not just as a networking connection, she remembers who I am. it's just, that's just the nature of the business. And I was literally having that conversation with my husband yesterday. So it's just important.
Speaker 2 (1:10:03)
And I think too, like the staying connected to your work by having people who are going through the work as well and their own journeys and sharing that dialogue. Like after this, I'm going to go have a beer. Well, in a couple hours, have a beer with our distro guy, our distributor. And at first it was all business, but now we've gotten to the place where like the business part comes in like here and there. And we just talk about like, I don't even know what the fuck we talk about.
We should talk about this, know, is work, but it's not, it's life. It's life.
Speaker 1 (1:10:37)
Because at a certain point when you're doing this job, it is your life. Because you're spending so much time thinking about it. Like my job for this tour, it's June, I don't even know what day it is, June 18th. My job for this tour started in February. So that was my life for however many months that is. A long time. So it becomes your life. But that's how it is. I I've talked to saying that I had two travel agents. My travel agent, Frankie in the UK,
Every time I had time off in London, she'd like, Hey girl, let's go get a drink. We're not working. Let's go get a drink. I'm going to take you out to this amazing Japanese restaurant. I'm like, yes, girl, let's go. And we were just drink. She'd like, she'd ask me about the tour. Cause she, she started as like a production coordinator kind of thing. Like she did a lot of logistics for huge festivals. So she knew what it was like, but she never toured toured. So we were just bullshit. She would ask me similar questions that you are. Cause she's just like,
wanted to know about it. And I love those situations. mean, me with my crew, me and Jonathan would go out and sometimes Theo, we would go out and get breakfast and we just like be bullshitting because that's just how it is. You're working with someone, but especially when you're touring and you're living on a bus with someone, you're literally sharing a two foot wide hallway with 12 people. You're going to have to like them or else it's going to be a hard time.
Speaker 2 (1:11:59)
Or even just like going through the journey together. Like, I don't know, you spend like a weekend with somebody. like, you come back, you're like, and you see them again, you're like, like you just have like a deeper connection.
Speaker 1 (1:12:09)
It's like you we did that we did that shit for six weeks. Yeah, and it's like it's a bond that you'll never really forget Yeah, I mean some tours again are different but this tour was just very special where it's like what we did that and we made we made The band have the best tour that they've ever had Yeah, and they have been blatantly outwardly said that to us and to the internet and to the stage We did that for them and it's a it's a you know a tip of your cap
Speaker 2 (1:12:36)
So, I just thought of this and I think that like I work with lot of young bands or people who've been around but not done any scale ⁓ of touring. The notion of touring has, think it's become like, it seems like so out of reach. Like, well, how the fuck, like how would we ever ⁓ obtain that or how would we ever afford that? Or it just seems like scarce.
From your experience on the front lines and going venue to venue to venue, does it feel like the state of live music is healthy? that it's going to be around for a while, if that makes sense? It's something that's still.
Speaker 1 (1:13:22)
So that's a great question. Cause there's, I hear that in two separate ways. So healthy from the fan side. Yes. I feel like people always need music as a connection. That's why I always thought that touring was going to be a secure job for me. Cause I was like, there's always going to be bands that want to tour. There's always going to be fans that want to see it. And then COVID happened and I had a mental breakdown. I was like, wow, the one thing that I never thought was going to happen of like a huge virus that's going to, I had no idea what was going on. was so, I was, it was a bad time for me.
like poor, was by myself living by myself. had just gotten a new apartment. Cause I was like, Hey, Leanne's going to tour forever. You know, if I have to just do through, have to just do three shows a month to pay my rent. Like I could do it. I got a cat. was living, but then, then COVID happened and I'm like, what is going on? So from that standpoint, unless COVID happens again, God forbid, I think that there's always going to be touring now.
Speaker 2 (1:14:19)
because of that need.
Speaker 1 (1:14:20)
because
of the need. But something that I dealt with a lot last year with Chrissy and the pretenders, outdoor shows, I think those are like festivals during the summer or amphitheater shows, stadium shows, maybe less amphitheater, but stadium shows. I feel like those are going to go the wayside within the next 15 years because of global warming. And I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but when my artist who's 74
Speaker 2 (1:14:39)
kind of going on.
Speaker 1 (1:14:48)
gets on stage at 5 p.m. and it's ⁓ 115 degrees, who can perform with that? And the stage is black, radiating heat. We had to literally have, like the Foo Fighters production manager was incredible, but he had to literally rent an AC unit for the stage in order to have Chrissy go on stage. And she's, we would talk about it all the time when we were on the bus or traveling. She's like, yeah, with global warming, I don't know how festivals are gonna happen.
Bonnaroo just canceled three out of their four days because of rain. This is the second year since COVID that they have canceled because of weather.
Speaker 2 (1:15:26)
And we've been talking about this too with, it seems like, I don't know, and I don't know, because I'm not out in the world enough, but it seems like smaller shows, even seeking the intimacy of a smaller show, like what we talked about a little bit ago, is like, it seems like something that is more attractive to people right now. It's like we want smaller shows, like let's put on our own shows, it's happening more in our city in Southern Indiana.
It just seems like there's like a yearning for more shows, but not necessarily like we want to go camp and be a part of a hundred thousand people at this thing. It seems like more of like a, it's like, it's like kind of like, like fragmenting and like going, I don't know. It feels that way, but we don't, don't know.
Speaker 1 (1:16:12)
No, it's very interesting. So on the health side of that, it's, think that people are craving that because I mean, we just had Taylor Swift with her enormous tour. She can sell out. don't know. She can sell out. She could sell out the whole country of Europe. You know, great. Good for her. But Beyonce's tour is not sold out, you know? So it's like people are craving an intimacy. And I saw a really interesting thing actually on Reddit where again, with AI,
I think people, now this might make me sound like conspiracy theorist, but I think people are now getting to the point where they don't know what's real anymore on the internet. So now they're craving a personal interaction. that, mean, as a fan, want to be two feet from my favorite artist. I don't want to be a thousand feet away. That's exactly why I have a pit ticket to see Beyonce. Cause I don't want to be...
far away. There's no connection with like, everyone will be watching the screen. Exactly. You could be singing together, but you're not together. You there's no mosh pits happening if you're in a stadium, unless it's in the GA and then the only people enjoying it are in a GA. Yes. But now conversely on the other side of health for touring artists and crew, is incredibly unhealthy. Incredibly. Unless you're on it, unless you're a headliner on a stadium tour, even a direct support on a stadium tour.
It is incredibly unhealthy. There's a ⁓ website called Backline.care and they provide mental health resources, a lot of different resources for touring professionals because of how hard it is. And I think they started as independent, but I think they're collaborating with Live Nation because in all the Live Nation venues that I toured in, they had a Backline care poster and it's like, hey, you could reach out if you need help, touring is hard.
There's also an Instagram that's actually, implore anyone listening to go look at it. It's called this tour, this tour life, I think. And the person that runs it, think she's a woman. Correct. I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but she, she writes incredible, they're long, but they're incredible paragraphs and like captions about how difficult touring is and just trying to enlighten.
people onto how hard it is to just be on the road, especially as a crew member for a band. It's, mean, it's very hard because we're all in the same sleeping schedules, but the band member can wake up at 12. They don't have to do until four. Yeah. Me as a crew. mean, me as a crew person, I had, I at least got a chance to go into my office and sit my crew guys.
got to, you know, they slept until whenever got to eat and then they're working, working, working, working, working until soundcheck and then they're working through soundcheck and then they have two and a half hours to eat until showtime. So that it's, it's very, very unhealthy. mean, when we were on this tour, we didn't have catering. got, we got cash every day for our hospitality buyout, but I'm, know, you constantly have to just find what's around. You know, you have to
What what are you what are you gonna eat? You don't know what's in the food you're eating unless you get it from like sweet green or it's a whole food or not Whole foods, but yeah, I mean we were a lot of us were going to the grocery store going to Trader Joe's and just stocking the fridge and freezer with stuff But eating freezer Indian meals is still not good for you. Yeah, you know It's like I was working out a lot at the beginning of the tour because like I said, I'm doing Muay Thai So I was working out a lot at the beginning of the tour. I was going to Muay Thai gyms, but then three weeks
before the tour was done, didn't have any energy to do it. I literally barely was going to the gym, even just a stretch. And your body just gets like atrophied, especially if you're used to working out all the time. But I'm walking 14,000 steps a day and my fitness tracker is like, hey, you've reached your optimal strain for the day. Don't do anymore. I'm like, yeah, I'm like, okay, well, good for you girl. I have to keep going. So it really is, it's a,
mental constantly, physically constantly demanding. Yes. And like, again, it depends on what kind of tour you're on. It depends on the level of touring. You know, if you're in a van tour, that's cool. You're not having to sleep on a bus. You're sleeping in a hotel, but all of your days off are going to be spent driving. So you're driving 13 hours to the next city. That's not a day off. You're sitting in a van and you're eating snacks from pilot. Yes. Yes. So like it's, it's very like, unless literally, unless you're
Post Malone and you have fantastic catering every day that you can customize or they have like fresh pressed juice you can make. Like we had a juicer on the rider for the pretenders. So we would make juices a lot. Luckily when we were with the Foo Fighters and Guns N' Roses, they had the catering. So we were able to eat healthy catering. But again, that was once every four shows. We had catering when we were in the UK and Europe as well. But when we were in the US tour, was go fend for yourself.
You know, so.
Speaker 2 (1:21:20)
There's always a reality to the situation that I think it's just on you can't know it unless you hear about it from somebody who's experienced it or been through it yourself. But I think that that's probably ⁓ that's really enlightening just because even like one of the bands I'm talking to or working with we've been talking about like they're playing their first festival in Pennsylvania. Well that's you know what 14 hours I think from where we live and they're going up and it was like cool can we play some other shows like on the way back but they're like they're like in there.
late thirties, like two of have kids. It's like the reality of their touring days looks like short run weekends, Thursday through Saturdays. And that's going to be the reality. But like, I didn't even think about like really like what the taxing of like no sleep or fucked up sleep schedules and like travel, like just the taxing that it puts on a person.
Speaker 1 (1:22:12)
Yeah, I mean, let me put it to you this way. for the first half of the tour, had a not easy touring schedule. We started off with four shows in a row. Insane. So we're starting off with four shows in a row, but our drummer was playing a lot of shows with the other band he's in. So they kind of made the tour around those shows for him because they really wanted him to be in the band. So we started off doing like four shows and then we had two days off.
and then we have two shows and then two days off and then one show and then a day off. So it was very inconsistent at the beginning, but then starting at like three weeks in, was three shows, one day off, three shows, one day off, three shows, one day off. And then we had three shows, two days off. And then it was three shows, one day off, two shows, I think. And then that was our last. So it was constantly three shows, one day off, three shows, one day off.
And on those three show days, am personally sleeping three and a half hours to four hours a night, even though I go to bed at one and I wake up at 10. That's the quality of sleep I'm getting. And then as soon as I wake up, I'm working. Regardless, I'm calling the hotel. I'm getting my bus driver to the hotel. I'm trying to figure out if his hotel's room is ready, because that's an art in itself. But I'm trying to get him to his hotel. I'm trying to make sure that like,
You know, it was a little bit less in the morning than I have in the past, but it's still, I'm working from the second my eyes open. And then at one o'clock, I'm working until one o'clock. So I have 12 hour days consecutively. And then on my days off, I'm technically still working because, I have to check them into the hotel. I have to, you know, make sure that everyone knows what's going on. know, it's-
Speaker 2 (1:24:01)
Keeping the machine well oiled because you actually took a day off in the middle of all this What are you setting yourself up for the next day? Are you know what I mean? I could just see how like the pile of shit would just go
Speaker 1 (1:24:13)
Yeah, mean, luckily on this tour, was able, they were very incredibly self-sufficient. once I got the hotel room, cause we would have one cleanup room on our days off. So we didn't even have a hotel room to sleep over in the crew and the band would rotate on who got to sleep over in the hotel room if we were in the same city the next day. So, So, ⁓ you know,
I was very lucky that once the hotel room was ready, I really didn't have anything else to do. know, like my bus driver was sorted in his room. He's good. The band, you know, they are good in the cleanup room. You know, everyone has keys, everyone's good. And then I actually did get a chance to like take time off, but okay. I'm not getting texts and emails or I'm not getting texts and calls. My email at inbox is still at 40 and it keeps growing. So I would have a day off quote unquote, do what I want.
and then I'd sit on the bus for two hours and go on my computer and work. I had one true day off and that was the first day of the two days off that we had in a row right at the end of tour. That was like, truly like got into the hotel, I unpacked all my stuff, reorganized it because it was towards the end of the tour, did all my laundry and just laid in bed for 10 hours and I went to bed at 830. That's what I like.
Speaker 2 (1:25:31)
Well, it makes me think that like it makes me think that like touring isn't for everybody. Reality of it, everybody might dream of it or like I want to go tour and it's like, but there is a reality to the situation.
Speaker 1 (1:25:37)
It's not. I'll tell you that right now.
Yeah, it is not for everyone and I can clock it. I can clock it. I know someone and they're like, I want a tour. I'm like, no, you don't. But, conversely, I could see someone, like there's a girl that I have helped mentor, her name's Andy. I met her, she was a fan of one of the bands I was TMing. And they called me over because she had told them, hey, like want a tour managed, blah, blah. So they were like, Jerry, come here and talk to Andy.
So through that we had a connection. And I could see myself in her. So I was like, you, the questions you're asking me, your general personality and how dedicated you are and the fact that you love live music, go for it girl. And now she's living in LA and she's the assistant to like this crazy producer person touring all the time. So I'm like, God bless you girl. So I could clock it, but there's some people that I meet that are like,
I just like, don't want to work in town anymore. I just want to go on tour. I'm like, go on tour once and you're never going to do it again. Like I know it. It's, it's, you have to literally, you have to be a certain type of person. It's not as glamorous. That's why I said earlier, it's like when I used to have an in town job before I would leave for tour, they'd say, well I hope you have a nice trip. I'm like, I'm not going on vacation. I'm working more than I ever have ever at this place. Like I'm
literally working 12 plus hours days. mean, when I was on tour with the pretenders, I didn't have a day off for three months, three full months. And then when I had a day off, I go into my hotel room, I opened the curtain and there's a 50 foot LED screen, video screen playing AI videos, just bouncing balls neon in the middle of the night. And I called my, I called the down the front desk. said, you have no idea. I haven't had a day off in three months.
and I have to open my window and I have to see this LED screen, was like a psychopath. It really does get to you.
Speaker 2 (1:27:40)
see that's why I remember seeing this thing. I probably was on Instagram a while back, but it was like it was like James Cameron. The director was like talking to this group of people and someone's like ⁓ I want to be a director like you like what do I need to do and he's like no, know, like if you knew what I have to go through right to get a movie made you don't and he's like if that pisses you off, then you're either going to like take that and go like figure out how to build a career out of it or you're not going to do it because he's like it's just too. There is like that.
Speaker 1 (1:28:07)
It's very hard.
Speaker 2 (1:28:09)
It's not even discouraging. It's just like, you're going to do with this whatever you want, but let me just give you this realness here. This shit's...
Speaker 1 (1:28:18)
Yeah. I mean, a lot of people don't talk about it. That's why, I mean, a lot of the people that follow that Instagram, the this is tour life Instagram. A lot of the people are in touring already and are like, my God, like this is so enlightening. Like thank you for just putting this out there. But a lot of people don't talk about it. It's just something that they don't talk about. It's like, it's like this kind of, like you said on an unattainable thing that you're reaching for. then when you get there, you're like, ⁓ I'm traveling, but I haven't seen
any city that I've been in. Yes. Ever. Like I went to, I went, we did 20 shows in the UK and I saw three. Yeah. Three cities. Yeah. You know, all of these European cities, I'm not seeing them. Yeah. Like if I have a day off there, I am on my show day. If we're in and out on the show day, I'm not seeing that city. Yeah. You know, it's like, so there are positives. Great. The money's great. Once you get to a certain point. Yeah. But
Again, there's also the money and shit. There are still job postings that I'm seeing where they want someone to TM, do front of house engineering, audio, and merch manage and drive a van for $200 a day. That's insane. That's insane. For, I mean, $1,400 a week, you're thinking, oh wait, that's great. No, that's so much work for somebody. I mean, it's just...
So the, the like country will pay you very well, but there's some places that just still pay you like shit. And they're just like, okay, well we could find someone else that wants to do it for that rate. So there is a very still toxic side of it where it's like, if you don't have, frankly, if you don't have the nuts to put up to do it, just don't eat, don't like if you, if you don't think that you can work on two hours of sleep and have people screaming at you all the time. Cause I've had that on a tour that I had to quit in the middle of the tour. Cause I had, I was fed up, but I was like,
If you can't deal with that, just don't. Just don't. Because it's either going to destroy you mentally, which this job has destroyed me mentally at points, or you're just going to be so burnt out you don't want to ever work again and do anything.
Speaker 2 (1:30:23)
See, and this is like, ⁓ there's a theme here. There's like a through line I'm noticing between like talking to you, the fella I talked to yesterday, my best friend's, he's a painter, he's a fine artist, like really high level. And it's like the things that a person puts themselves through to obtain like a, to obtain a great level or a level of doing great work. It doesn't matter if it's like the biggest in the world or the smallest, but you're like,
putting yourself through something to do a great level of work. It's such a commitment of life itself that most people wouldn't do it. Like they would, they, yes, I want to be this, but it's like, but you got to understand like this, this fella I interviewed yesterday, he's, he's made like eight of these coffee tale books. I said, I was like, what, when you look back at the last like 10 years, like what was life? He's like, I worked a lot and I drank a lot. And that was like, but he's like,
He's like, when I'm in work mode, like I just, love to work. Like when I'm doing it, I love it. But he's like, it is brutal. Like, you know, and my, my buddy who's a painter, same thing. Like he works his ass off. He gives up so much of life to do that. That's the cost of doing it. And in talking to you today, I can just really sense that it's like, it's no like joy ride through this shit. It's rewarding in ways that are probably undescribable to somebody on outside, but the cost of doing it.
is life itself.
Speaker 1 (1:31:49)
Like, you
pay. Yes. I mean, I have missed countless amounts of things. Think about, I mean, my step grandfather passed away when I was on my third tour. couldn't go to the, I couldn't go to the funeral. Last year when I was doing a festival with Slaybells, my aunt died and she was like my second grandmother. She died and I had to do a festival. Luckily I was with them and they really cared and they were very kind and like, but I had to do playback.
I had to still be locked into the gig. I had to still make sure everyone that didn't have passes that weren't on the guest list were able to get in. I still had to make sure that the show ran and then I had to literally change my flight and go to Florida to be with my family. The day that the Knicks lost to the Pacers last year, just to let you know. And my aunt died. I was having a great time at the airport. almost got, I almost went viral on Tik TOK when they told me to condense my three carry on bags anyway.
But yeah, mean, like you're, you're missing crazy life events. Like I didn't know if I could go to either of my two best friends weddings. Cause I was like, I don't know if I'm going to be on tour, but that being said, it's like, you know, people, people, they make this their life. And then I've heard from so many people that are 40, 50 that are still touring and they're like, I'm not married. I don't have kids. This is not my life and my life is passed me by. And that's what I didn't want.
You know, I was tired of not being able to plan the rest of my year because I didn't know what was going on. I could finally say, yes, I'm going to go see Patti Smith in November because I have tickets and I know I could go to New York because now I have a stable job. Exactly. And you know, I, it's just, it's very unstable and it does become your life. I, I used, my work used to be my life.
Speaker 2 (1:33:28)
We can ask for time off. ⁓
Speaker 1 (1:33:40)
and I'm still very passionate about it, but that you need to have some kind of divide to just have any shred of mental health. Like you just need to.
Speaker 2 (1:33:48)
So now, so on the outside of your work begins your life here. You got married. Now you put out the call, hey, I'm going to be wrapping up touring. Anybody know of any gigs? And then now you've landed production manager at the Broken Bowl in Nashville.
Speaker 1 (1:34:04)
Yes, yes
Yeah, I I kind of made the decision with my family and I talked to my parents because my parents have both a very unique experience because my dad was a traveling musician or touring musician. He's now transitioned into public speaking. My mom has been with him for a million years. You know, she was with him. She met him when they were when he was on the road. So she moved to New York when he was on tour. So she's been with a musician that's been on tour and she's also had the corporate side of working her ass off for her whole life.
And then my husband, obviously I to consider what he wants. He wants me home, but he's not ever going to be the person to be like, don't tour anymore. I want you at home. But I know that he did. with the consideration of that, like, I don't want to be away. I don't want to be away. So I texted a bunch of people, which is exactly what I would do when I was looking for a tour. But I have a couple of really close friends that are in touring and in music in Nashville.
And my friend was like, Hey, know, Brooklyn Bulls looking for a production coordinator at that point. ⁓ cause they were going through a lot of transition. So I was like, okay. And they wanted to hire from within. And I had been a stage hand there a couple of years ago. Well, I was off the road. So I was like, all right, well, hopefully they remember me. You know, I sent my resume in, I got an interview and they essentially came back and they were like, Hey, you know, I think that your experience is too overmatched for this, for this position.
However, I think that we'll have something available for you in a couple of weeks. Lo and behold, the production manager position became available. if I'm not, if I might be misunderstanding it, but I'm pretty sure I was the only person they interviewed for it. So that's just how it happened. again, was me having to reach out and tell people that I was available. This whole time I was sitting at home and sending my resume in to everything that I saw on LinkedIn. was emailing people that like, if I saw a job on LinkedIn and
I applied for it. was finding their email address and I was emailing them directly. Nothing. Nothing. I got nothing. I mean, I applied to probably a hundred jobs and I've done this multiple times and that's what it's so frustrating. I was talking about this with my husband again yesterday. It's like you have to consistently, especially in this business, well really in life, but consistently put yourself out there. But even if you do sometimes it gives you fuck all. So it's just really frustrating, but that's how I got that.
Speaker 2 (1:36:35)
It's interesting because like I'm even learning that with, you know, the podcast is new. I've done podcasts for a while, but like this is like a new adventure with this new thing. And I've sent out, I don't know, several dozen invites in the last like two weeks, three weeks. And I'm aiming really high. And then I'm aiming just like whoever I can find. And then I like, I'm also talking to just friends I have too. And whoever replies is who I'm like, okay, sweet, sweet. And what's funny is like, uh,
through putting myself out there with podcasting, all of sudden, like, just other random shits popping up for like artists that I represent or like label stuff or like, I don't know, it just seems like, but I think the, and I've been talking about this with, I have a, like a coach, like a business coach, and it's a woman and she, we've been talking about how like action, just action, taking action creates, it like creates momentum that breeds more opportunity.
So even if like you're like, yes, I want this. And then over here, like something pops up, you're like, actually, I need to do that right now while I'm like, or whatever. Maybe this is where I need to go. But it's all like doing it is the heart, getting started. It's the hard part. Like once you start reaching out, I want you to start the thing all of sudden, like a path forms and okay, you know, I'm, you know, I'm going to go to the Brooklyn bowl. Okay, sweet.
Speaker 1 (1:37:38)
Exactly.
No, exactly. I mean, what I before I knew that I wanted to tour manage before I was offered those tours because I was working with electric lady. But before I was offered those tours from Kirby, I was email. I literally wrote down every single band that I liked. And then I went on. This was in 2015. I went on Facebook and they still had on Facebook. I don't know if they still have it now, but you could. A lot of bands had their manager's email addresses on there. So I wrote down every single band I liked.
I went on Facebook, looked at every, and I wrote down every single manager and I was cold emailing them my resume. I heard back from two and they were like, Hey, you don't have enough experience or we can't afford a tour manager right now. And it's like, okay, well, how am I supposed to get experience without touring? You know, I can't get it in a classroom. We all know that. I just went on a whole diatribe about it. But you know,
And that's also hard, but that's what my dad did in 1970 whenever he was trying to look for a band to play with. And all he did was just mail his resumes out to anyone that would listen. And he got one answer back and it really started his, it's, kickstarted his momentum. So.
Speaker 2 (1:39:10)
And then I would say too though, I was just thinking about this, like you going through the effort of putting yourself out there, first of all, it's action that you have to like do, but it's also like, it's like a thing that takes courage as well. Then once you land something, you're like, bam, got it. Like then you show up, like you show up differently versus somebody who just like hands you something or I don't know about that, but it's just like, it means something different.
Speaker 1 (1:39:37)
You fucking found Yeah, you achieved it. Right.
Speaker 2 (1:39:39)
and now I'm going to show up for it. And then now starts the trajectory of like, you're like an integral, you have like a person, you're a person of integrity who shows up for things. And then all of now you keep doing that over the years and it's like, that's the person that you become, you know?
Speaker 1 (1:39:53)
Right,
right. And it really, mean, that's the only way that you can help your career too. I mean, I believe that my whole thing is that I need to be, or you need to be nice to everybody until they give you a reason not to, and everyone needs to be treated the same. And it kind of, I feel like that's why I've had the career that I've had, not saying that I'm, you know, tour managing a stadium artist, but the past couple artists that I've worked with have said that, you know, I do a great job.
So that's, I'm just, that's a feather in my cap, but you know, you're putting yourself out there, but you could put yourself out there as much as you want. But if you're an asshole, the industry is incredibly small. I have personally, I have, it's, is bad, but I have personally told people not to hire certain people. Cause I've worked with them before and I'm like, you don't want to do that. Don't want to do that. And guess what? That person wasn't hired. And that's not being me being a bitch, but that's me caring for this whole process. You know, it's just like, you have to.
give it your all and you don't like, just don't be an asshole. Yes. Yeah. So along with that, it's like, yeah, you could. Well, I was talking about this with Derek too, the guitar player of sleigh bells. He had hired at one of the first tours that they ever did. They wanted an LD. So they got this resume from this LD and it had like, tired of the creator, you know, all these huge people on the resume. they were like, okay, sick. Like they've, he's worked with some amazing people show up.
doesn't even know what the lighting console is. Like completely either lied or like worked with these artists for two hours and put them on the resume. Okay. Well that person was fired and that person probably put sleigh bells on their resume. So you can either have an like, like a very meaningful relationship with your job and the relationships that you're building through your job, especially tour managing and your artists. you can work. I mean, I worked with 11, but that's just because that first
year I worked with five because they were just my first tours. But you know, I, I at least have like Lee had longevity, pretenders longevity. Yes. You know, the regrets I did two tours with them, sleigh bells. I've done two tours with them, you know, and I will continue to tour with them, but that's because I'm not a dickhead. Yes. I try not to be, especially now recently, I might've been in the past cause I just didn't have a handle on, know, whatever it may be. Exactly. But it's like,
You could put yourself out there and work with 25 bands, but if you have worked with 25 bands and all of them say poor things about you, awesome. Like that's not cool. That's not cool. So it's just, it all goes together. Just like the mental and how you treat people. It's just so important. And a lot of people, especially in live music are losing that. think, ⁓ you know, I just, I want to be the tour manager that the venue remembers. And like, it was lovely working with you guys. I hope that you come back soon.
I'm like, okay, well, I wasn't in the best mood today, so who are you dealing with? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just very different. I don't know. It's not different, but it's important.
Speaker 2 (1:42:51)
Yeah, it's funny, know, the last question that I wrote down before I got here was how much of your success to this point would you give towards your hard skills, like your ability to do the work that you need to do versus just how you treat people and how you interact with people. When you look back at the last 10 years of your journey.
Speaker 1 (1:43:15)
I think it's both. It's definitely both because everyone always says if you're touring, you have to be a good hang. If you're a bad hang, you're not going to go far. Exactly. If you're a bad hang, you're not going go far. So I have that going for me, I guess. But if you're a good person and you care and you are trying, you have way more of a leash than if you're a dickhead.
Speaker 2 (1:43:24)
Yeah, same with studio.
Speaker 1 (1:43:42)
Admittedly so when I was with the pretenders last year, I got promoted to be TM after 2023 and I completely didn't realize that no one had applied for us visas for all my UK tour touring members until a month before we left. don't know if anyone listening has ever had to get a U S visa in less than a month, but I fucked up royally and then I had to get us visas in a month. So I fucked up because I fucked up, but they didn't fire me.
They were like, you have to get it done. You have to get it done. Luckily the paycheck was there. The money was there for them to be able to pay for an express visa. I ended up getting it done with one person left behind and it was our audio tech. so I executed it, but I fucked up and they didn't fire me. And I think that's because they had faith that I can execute it. If I didn't execute it, it might've been a different thing.
Speaker 2 (1:44:38)
Just
because you're a nice person, if you can't get the shit done, unfortunately you can't be in this role.
Speaker 1 (1:44:45)
Well, no, it's just you ⁓ have more of a extension of understanding. This whole tour, was doing playback and I was great. I hit every cue. There was just one misunderstanding on our first day of tour because I thought we were going direct into a song and we weren't. So after the show, they were like, hey, no, we're not going direct into that. was like, my bad. I thought we had said that at rehearsal. Fine then, the whole rest of the tour.
but the whole tour was going great. We were all having a good time. And then I fucked up the second to last show in Minneapolis. It ended up being one of the best moments of the band on stage on the tour. I took, I was feeling so bad about it. And they were like, Jerry, you're allowed one mistake. But if I was a dickhead and I was fucking up all the time, you know, it's a very, it's a very delicate balance because you could, the reason why I got Lee and Womack's tour after
being with super small bands is cause they were like, Hey, like we want someone that's kind of green that we can mold into what we want instead of having some like old head that's like, I want to do it this way. And then like fucking everything up, you know? So, you know, if you don't have to know everything, but if you're willing to admit that you don't know everything, you'll go way farther. And that's where I've been. It's like, I got hired to do sleigh bells and they're like, you have to do playback. I'm like, I've never done that before. Is someone going to show me? Yeah. Okay. Then I'll do it.
You know, being humble enough to say that you don't know anything and then being flexible to learn. That's really where the middle ground is. Cause there's a lot of people that are awesome hangs, but think that they know everything and then they don't have a long career or they're bad hangs, but they're great at their job. And people will be grudgingly put up with them because they're amazing. But at a certain point, if you, if you are consistently rude to people and consistently are just mean,
that will then reflect on your band and your band doesn't want that. Yes. That happened with our production manager last year. I had to, he literally got let go because he was doing a lot of bad things, but he wasn't, he was really rude. And I said to the band, said, you don't want, you don't want someone like this representing you. I said it to management too. I was like, this person is representing this band, rock and roll, hard hall of fame artists. You don't want someone to do that. And that was one of the reasons why I got the sleigh bells gig too, because they were like, we just want someone that's can represent our band correctly.
Yes. So it's a very fine line. It's a very hard thing to negotiate.
Speaker 2 (1:47:17)
It's funny because I'm thinking like, I bet some of the people now who are looking for a good tour manager, like a head up Jerry, like she's like the best. And then you're like, well, I mean, thank you, but I'm over here. I'm chilling over here.
Speaker 1 (1:47:30)
Yeah, mean, yeah, doing something else. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (1:47:33)
Yeah,
well, ⁓ I think this is a perfect spot to wrap things up. then ⁓ maybe in like five or 10 years, we check back in. How's life at the venue? How has it evolved? Where's things going? So thank you so much for doing this and for being so open and such a great guest. This is everything that I want for the podcast. Great.
Speaker 1 (1:47:49)
love that. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (1:48:03)
I've told people this, like, I don't know if I said it to you, but like, I was like, I want to totally demystify your idea of what you think working in music is like. And then I want to rebuild it with this appreciation for the people and the job and the, the whole thing that, that you wouldn't have without going, you know, without it just being wiped away. it is not this, mean, sometimes it's glamorous, but it's not this just thing. It's like what, when my wife got into real estate, her, her brokers like this ain't HGTV.
You're going to spend most of your days on the phone, putting out fires, talking to people who are pissed off. And it's like the reality of the situation is what I'm after. Because I think it's actually like it's the realest.
Speaker 1 (1:48:47)
Well, I appreciate you doing this because a lot of people don't even, they don't know the different parts of touring. They don't know the people that are behind the scenes and it's a very thankless job. So I appreciate you caring about those people because it's just, when I tell you it's, it's one of the most thankless jobs you can have because you, no one sees you except for the band. And if the band doesn't care about you, you're not going to get any validation. So it's important that people like you are out there because that's sometimes
You know, when I'm having a hard day, all I want is validation. And that's what kept me going on my tour, because they continued to validate me, which is fantastic. nine out of 10 artists don't do that.
Speaker 2 (1:49:24)
Yeah, ⁓ in Jack Holzman's book, he founded Electra Records and he said, learned very early on and told everybody on the team that, you know, getting a thank you from an artist, it's a bonus. It's not an act. And it's nothing, it's like, it was almost like by nature, most, well, unless you say a lot of people, they're up their own ass. They're not thinking about. ⁓
Speaker 1 (1:49:36)
It is.
Thank you to you. No, and you never know. Maybe that thank you is empty. So who knows? Anyway, thank you. I appreciate you doing this.
Speaker 2 (1:49:52)
I know.
Thank you again for listening to this episode of the Everybody Else Podcast. I hope you enjoyed hearing the story and the work life of Ms. Jeri Gennaro. There's a few guests who I've had the pleasure of talking with who almost feel like they are speaking on behalf of a group of people who perhaps don't have the opportunity to share what the reality of the situation is out on the front lines of touring, which most people don't think about, right?
Which brings me to another thing that artists and creative entrepreneurs oftentimes don't think about, which is making money, generating money in a way that feels good so that they can continue to make great art in a way that feels good to them, in a way that is actually beneficial to their following, to their fans, and grows a long-term sustainable career. And this is something that I struggled with for years. It's something that I sought coaching.
to help me figure out and by God, I'm happy to report we're figuring it out. was part of this, part of my coaching strategy became doing a podcast. It seems like those things were lining up well where it made sense for me to do a podcast and it has a plethora of secondary benefits like I talked about earlier in the episode. But anyway, if you are an artist and you're feeling stuck or plateaued in your career or you just, you've got momentum, you're like, I don't know where to go next.
consider artist development coaching with me, Wes Luttrell. And you can learn more at ThruLine, that's the name of my coaching company, ThruLine Development. The website is called artistdev.co. On there you'll hear about what my approach is to artist development, how I work to align you with your great vision, which is the North Star, this guiding principle to pull you through the tough times.
to really focus on taking action consistently to develop the great habits that produce the processes that produce the results that you want. It's all about taking control of your life, your career, and building what you want that serves you. So, by the way, I have to say this. I was cringed out. I was hesitant for coaching, for becoming interested in coaching, before offering coaching. All of it felt foreign, all of it felt weird, but I'm...
become evangelized and now I want to spread the good news of aligning yourself with great work and with a mission because the momentum and the just like energy is high level, high quality and I want to continue offering that to people who are interested, people who need it, people who seeking it for hitting that next level of growth. So as artists we are entrepreneurs, as entrepreneurs we are artists.
2025. So I'd love to help become part of your part of your little team and help you, you know, cut your path through the noise and into the place where you want to Again, visit artistdev.co and thank you for listening to the show. We'll be back again next week.