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Eggheads is the go-to podcast for egg industry professionals who are interested in leadership and innovation in the egg world. Host Greg Schonefeld explores the evolving world of modern egg farming, from the latest in cage-free innovations and organic certifications to navigating the economics of large-scale production. Whether you're an egg producer, supplier, or involved in poultry genetics, this show provides the insights and expert discussions you need to thrive in the industry. Crack open the science, strategies, and stories behind the egg industry’s biggest challenges and opportunities.
Coke Anderson:
My attitude has always been cooperative rather than competitive. I want to do well, but I also want to watch others do well, and that's probably been the guiding principle throughout my entire life.
Greg Schonefeld:
I'm Greg Schonefeld, and this is Eggheads. Today, it's my pleasure to welcome the inaugural guest to our new Eggheads Studio, Coke Anderson. Coke has had a long and storied career in poultry, and for someone who's seen as somewhat of a trailblazer for women in the industry, it's fitting that her own path into the business really started with her mother.
Coke Anderson:
My mother was a poultry farmer on a very small scale, but big enough that I didn't think I wanted to be one.
Greg Schonefeld:
Coke actually planned to move to New York and become a newspaper reporter, but a chance meeting sent her down a different path entirely.
Coke Anderson:
I went to the University of Iowa, and then I met this really persuasive guy, who said, "Oh, you don't want to go to New York and be a reporter. You should come back to a Spencer area and be a school teacher," he said. "But I really don't think we want to teach for our rest of our lives. I'd like to farm, so, okay, I became a farmer and a teacher.
Greg Schonefeld:
First, they tried sheep farming.
Coke Anderson:
Sheep didn't work very well with the coyotes in our area.
Greg Schonefeld:
Then cattle.
Coke Anderson:
And the cattle are good. We had 100 head of stockhouse, but chickens is where I think it's really at. We should try that. So we did. We started with a 30,000-bird chicken house, and then he just kept upping the ante.
Greg Schonefeld:
That 30,000-bird house would eventually grow into M&C Anderson Pullets. Today, a 1,700-acre farm that rears nearly five million pullets every year.
Coke Anderson:
So, then I've spent the last 55 years of my life just learning more about the poultry industry and being involved in the poultry industry.
Greg Schonefeld:
Today, Coke reflects on her more than five decades of experience working in poultry, including her unique approach to leadership, her thoughts on the movement to cage-free, and leading the industry through trying times as the chair of the American Egg Board. So, when you were working as a teacher and growing this poultry operation, how'd you find the time to do both?
Coke Anderson:
Well, there are things that you give up, and one of them is sleep. But I had typically been a normal riser, but I became a really early bird with this, because I had two daughters, and I taught and worked with the chickens for a while, and then I decided I couldn't do all that. And one of the things that I think I did learn to do was to delegate. I delegated some of the housework to my daughters.
Greg Schonefeld:
I'm sure that taught them good lessons.
Coke Anderson:
I thought so, but they thought it was child abuse. But also, as we got employees, I learned to teach them and to trust them. And I've had some outstanding employees, and many of them are still in the industry.
Greg Schonefeld:
So, as your operations grew, early on, it was just kind of a family affair only?
Coke Anderson:
It was. We had neighbors that helped us, because we couldn't always do the chores, because we had farm chores, we had school, and we had school activities and children. So when we couldn't, they did. And it was a joint operation until they got bigger too. And finally, when we built the layer house, I said, "I can't do all this. I'm going to quit teaching, and I will solely concentrate on the 30,000-bird pullet house and the 50,000-bird layer house." And he said, "Well, if you're not going to teach, I don't want to teach either." And I said, "I was planning on that income," but we made it work, and you just work harder and do better.
Greg Schonefeld:
So I understand today, at 84 years old, you're still going strong. Can you talk a little bit about what the day-to-day looks like today?
Coke Anderson:
Well, today, I have good long-term employees. And Nick is my chief operating officer, and he handles the day-to-day, scheduling truckers, outside employees, and then I have a chief financial officer who handles not only the finances, but also the biosecurity, which is so vital in a pullet operation. And between the two of them, and all of our other employees who either manage barns or are bird workers, or in one case, a manure hauler, there is that end of the business too, but all of them contribute to what we do, and they all are pretty much long-term employees. I don't think I have, outside of the bird crew, I don't have anybody who's worked for me for less than six years.
Greg Schonefeld:
Wow. So, you've built a strong team.
Coke Anderson:
Yes.
Greg Schonefeld:
And I want to get to that a little bit later, because I've heard about your leadership, and I want to touch on that at some point. But first, I want to hear about your experience with the American Egg Board. I mean, how did that come about in the first place?
Coke Anderson:
Well, it was an interesting thing. I was on the Farm Bureau Chicken and Egg Committee, and I went to a meeting down in Texas, and some of the industry people who were on the Egg Board said, "Well, who are you?" And I told them who I was and what I did, and they said, "Well, we're looking for minorities in the egg industry to have on our board. Would you serve on our board?" I said, "Well, we're building another chicken house this year, my husband would kill me if I took on one more thing this year, but check with me next year." And I thought, "Well, that was just a nice gesture." Well, no, it wasn't. They were back the next year. And so I was honored, and I thought, "Well, I can learn a lot by being on the American Egg Board," and I thought it was an important organization.
And the second year that I was there, they elected me as secretary, and I thought, "Well, isn't that typical? They pick a woman to be the secretary." But what I did realize was that the secretary was the first step in moving up in the executive positions until you reached chairman of the board, so I was pleased and honored to have been selected at the end of four years. And that was in 1999. So the American Egg Board, not only had the first woman that had ever served, we started a new century as well.
Greg Schonefeld:
Oh, yeah.
Coke Anderson:
And my worry when we were doing that, was Y2K. I don't know if you remember how that went, but we were deathly afraid that some of the electronics that we had done, and the computer systems that we had installed, were going to fail on us, so we spent probably the quietest New Year's Eve I've ever spent.
Greg Schonefeld:
Really?
Coke Anderson:
Yeah.
Greg Schonefeld:
Was there a lot that you did to prepare for that moment?
Coke Anderson:
Yes. We had backups in place, just generators, and then people in case what was supposed to be taken care of by computers failed.
Greg Schonefeld:
What would've been the implications? Was it specifically an American Egg Board issue or industry-wide issue?
Coke Anderson:
All of us were worried about, on our farms, whether the warning systems that detected that we had a problem would work, because most of them were computer-generated. And was there a flaw in the system? And we had people come and look at it, and they said, "Well, we think you'll be all right." But when you have hundreds of thousands, or millions of birds at risk, "You think" isn't really good enough.
Greg Schonefeld:
For sure. Well, and of course, we all know today, that nothing came to fruition, thankfully.
Coke Anderson:
Right.
Greg Schonefeld:
But I still find it interesting, because it sheds a light on a dependency that we probably take for granted. I mean, it says something about what the whole system of egg production is resting upon.
Coke Anderson:
Yes. We have all kinds of backups and fail-safes, but in the final analysis, we have to check and make sure that they really are fail-safe. If it's just a convenience issue, that's one thing. If it's the life of the birds or the existence of the business, that's a total other development.
Greg Schonefeld:
Were there other challenges during that time, that stand out to you, in the period that you served on the American Egg Board?
Coke Anderson:
Well, when I was serving on the American Egg Board, our challenges, a lot of them had to do with a couple of things. One was cholesterol. It was huge. Cholesterol was seen as the result of having consumed cholesterol-bearing food. We found out later that it wasn't that simple, but we had to fund the research, and we had been funding that research, but then we also had to tell people what the research was showing. And the American Egg Board, as a checkoff organization, they couldn't advertise. They could publicize the research, but they couldn't advertise that eggs seemed not to have an influence on people's cholesterol in nearly every case, that eating eggs did not elevate your cholesterol profile.
Greg Schonefeld:
And at that point, was it clear that that was the reality, and you just couldn't advertise that reality?
Coke Anderson:
No, these were just the initial findings. I was on the advertising committee, and we had a budget, and then the nutrition committee was doing the study, and I said, "Well, if we can't advertise it, can we publicize it," asking USDA, because they have oversight of the advertising that we in agriculture do. And they said, "Well, yeah, you can publicize it." I said, "Okay, then can we advertise that these studies are publicized in these publications?"
Greg Schonefeld:
I like the creative thinking.
Coke Anderson:
And "Well, yeah, we could do that." And so that's what we did. We put the results of the study into magazines that were well read, and then in our advertising, we referred to the great news about eggs, and you go to these magazines to read about it.
Greg Schonefeld:
So was that effective?
Coke Anderson:
It was. It began to change the conversation to, "Well, this is a dead issue, that's just the way it is." And people began to recognize it was a much more complex issue than it was, but we're still in the process of changing the direction of thinking on that. But good news is in the last year, eggs have become a good food.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah, that is great news. Yeah. When that seed gets planted, it never goes away fully for the people it's planted in, but maybe the next generation never went through that, and then it starts to lose that stigma with time.
Coke Anderson:
That's exactly what's happened, yes. And the research that's been done pretty much broadly supports that eggs are a good food.
Greg Schonefeld:
What was the talk around the industry at that time? Was there even a sense of internal doubt, like, "Oh, man, maybe there is this problem that we've just never known about?"
Coke Anderson:
I would say within the industry itself, our first reaction was, "Oh, man, that can't be true." And we went on our own experiences, our parents, our grandparents have been eating eggs for years, they didn't have these issues. But we're scientific people, and so we said, "Well, let's find out." That was our first thing, "Let's find out." If this isn't good for people, we don't want to produce it, let's find out. So we funded studies to find out whether in fact this was true or was it, "We found this and therefore this is what causes this, and so you're all done."
Greg Schonefeld:
That's great. So get the truth-
Coke Anderson:
Get the truth.
Greg Schonefeld:
Then publicize, and then advertise your publicize.
Coke Anderson:
Yeah. It's a roundabout way to get to the real truth.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah. No, but that's good just problem solving. I mean, and it starts with the truth.
Coke Anderson:
And that has always been the case with the American Egg Board, you want to know the truth, and then you can work with it. But if you hide things, it doesn't work well.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah. One thing I want to touch on just in your time with the American Egg Board, being the first female chair, was that meaningful to you? Is that something you thought about, or did it strike you a certain way, or did you just kind of show up, and, "Well, I'm going to do my job because I've always done my job."
Coke Anderson:
Well, and that was part of it. The thing that sticks with me the most is I didn't realize what a big deal it was for a lot of other women. I had women who worked for the American Egg Board, who came up and said, "Oh, great. It's so good to see that we have a woman that is in this position. It opens up opportunities in our minds." Being in my own world, I hadn't really realized that there were a lot of women who felt that there were ceilings that they were never going to be able to bump through. I just always thought, "Well, if I keep at it, I can get her done."
And honestly, when I first served on the Iowa Egg Council, they'd asked me if I would be like the cattle feeders had a ladies organization, the Cowbells, and would I start an organization for poultry producers? And I said, "Well, first of all, they would be the old hens, and I don't see that as something I want to be a part of. So if you want me to be on the board and make decisions, as I do in our own business, fine." But to start a ladies organization, I just didn't see that as something I wanted to do. And they surprised me by asking me to be on the board the following year. And it wasn't anything that I wanted to be a leader, but I wanted to make a difference, and I wanted to do it within the scope of the organizations we had rather than just start a new one.
Greg Schonefeld:
I love your response that, "No, you're going to give me a seat at the table, give me a seat at the table."
Coke Anderson:
Right. I don't want to sit at the children's table.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah, exactly. And have you seen, I mean, I guess since then, or just in your time, a lot more women be involved in the industry?
Coke Anderson:
Very much so. Very much so. I would say we have probably as many women as we do men involved in this industry.
Greg Schonefeld:
That's great, and certainly leaves a mark, something to be proud of.
Coke Anderson:
It is. I look back, and think, "Well, it's really great that it happened." It's wonderful for me that it happened with me. It was a wonderful experience. But more than that, the more good people we can get involved, and leaving 50% of our population out of the equation probably isn't a good idea.
Greg Schonefeld:
For sure. Lots of talent in that pool.
Coke Anderson:
Right.
Greg Schonefeld:
Prepping for Y2K, the PR battle over cholesterol, being the first woman to chair the American Egg Board, it really feels like Coke's career has been defined by these big changes in the industry. And with that being said, I was eager to get her take on some of the new emerging trends that are forcing those of us who work in poultry to shift the way we do things, and one change in particular seems to loom large.
Coke Anderson:
As I said, my mother started with cage-free birds. They had this little brooder house, and then they had this chicken house, and they were on the floor and on the ground. And our first barn was Highline wanted a 30,000-bird barn with cages to get the birds up off the ground so that they weren't vulnerable to the many diseases they got from being in the feces on the ground, and be in a better environment and have cleaner eggs. They hadn't done baby chicks on the wire before, and so I was kind of a large experimenter. 30,000 doesn't sound very large now, but in 1970, it was big. Going to cage was a big step, and now we're going back to cage-free. And I think that the public should have the opportunity to decide. What we've seen happen is that different states have begun to mandate how birds are raised, whether they're caged or cage-free, and now there's a sentiment to go back to cage-free.
And I think there's a place for both of those. There's also been a huge, huge investment by a number of companies in going cage-free, if this is the way people want their eggs produced. My problem is I don't think governments, either federal or state, ought to oversee production methods. I believe that the state and the federal government should make sure that our food is safe, but how it's produced, I see that as a slippery slope to over-managing our entire system. I think consumers deserve a choice of what they want, and to say one cannot be sold in this state, what happens to the people who have invested one way or the other if you change your mind? Those people, if they change tomorrow and want to go a different way, if they say, "Well, the mortality is too high, the morbidity is too high, it's too expensive to do this," what happens to those people? I don't think that's right. I think they should take care of the safety of the product, but I think they should leave the production to the people who do it.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah. How do you think the industry got in that position, where the government stepping in?
Coke Anderson:
Well, it got there because some states have initiative, and one of the animal welfare groups decided that chickens was an area that they wanted to focus on, and so they created initiatives on their ballots for people to vote on. And some of those states have 100 initiatives, but everybody that votes has the opportunity to weigh in on what they think. And my gut feeling, although I have nothing to support this statistically, is that most people don't read everything about those initiatives. They read the name. Bill to Prevent Animal Cruelty, well, who's not going to vote for a bill to prevent animal cruelty? But I don't think people really recognized what the implications were of what they were voting for. But once it's voted for and it's a law, then you have to make rules and regulations, and it's problematic for our industry to have every state have different rules.
Greg Schonefeld:
To your point about the naming convention, I mean, even cage-free is a good name. It's a very marketable phrase.
Coke Anderson:
That's right.
Greg Schonefeld:
So, if at the end, producers should decide, and the consumers should decide, or that it should be your relationship between those two to decide, how can that happen in practice?
Coke Anderson:
Well, honestly, we produce what sells. The consumer votes when he buys. If he has free choice of what he wants to buy, those things will take care of themselves, I believe. If there's more demand for cage-free eggs, we will create more cage-free eggs. If there's more demand for conventional eggs, we will produce more conventional eggs. We go where the consumer feels he needs to be, because ultimately, that's what we're doing. We're providing food for the consumer.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah. Well, one thing where I could relate to my own experience, so if it's government, or it's retailers pushing cage-free, I mean, I've made the mistake in my own business of sitting in an ivory tower, and thinking, "Well, we ought to be able to install it this way."
Coke Anderson:
Yeah.
Greg Schonefeld:
And then you talk to the guy in the field, and if you actually listen, he'll tell you the reasons why that works or doesn't work. But if you don't have that conversation, then you don't get to a real place. You get to the people living up here, with a certain view, but then the people who actually have to make it work are on a whole other end. And when you don't get that side of the conversation, you don't have a full picture when you're making those decisions.
Coke Anderson:
You are absolutely correct, and therein lies the problem, because we've got multi-levels of people out there who have multi-level needs, and one size doesn't necessarily fit all. And the crazy thing is that we're capable of doing whatever their needs are, that's why you have specialty growers to produce for that market, but doesn't mean that everybody has to be in that market.
Greg Schonefeld:
Have you moved your operations cage-free?
Coke Anderson:
I have not. It would cost me to move my house, several million dollars. At this age, I really can't expect to recoup that investment very well, but I have sold a former operation of mine to two young men in the process now of remodeling it to cage-free layer system. So I'm not doing it, but I am encouraging and enabling others to do it, because these guys are young enough to be able to make it all happen.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah. And I guess, are they making the right decision by doing that?
Coke Anderson:
I hope so. I truly hope. I believe there's a place for both systems. I truly believe that. And for the people who want cage-free, I think we need to produce for that. And the people who make that investment, I would hope that that investment would not be in vain. But I also think that for those who don't need, or want, or can't afford cage-free, that the conventional would still be available to them.
Greg Schonefeld:
And there was one other thing in the industry that I really wanted to get Coke's perspective on, HPAI. And I bring it up because it's something that has touched every single part of the egg industry, and also because I know the disease has had a huge impact on her personally.
Coke Anderson:
In 2015, our operation had to euthanize 1.2 million birds and bury them across the road, in one of my fields, and that was a heartbreaking experience. And fortunately, there is an indemnity program, and I was working with the owner of those birds, Rose Acres Farms, and they were very, very good about helping to compensate me for some of my loss when they were compensated in the indemnity program. But it was devastating to all of us. And as a consequence, I built a better biosecurity program, and I built a biosecurity building in vans and special farm-only vehicles for my employees, so they don't drive their own vehicles on site. We've done a lot to try to prevent this, but some people have had it multiple times. It's damaging. It's hard for our consumers, because those costs get passed on, and it's as devastating to us.
Greg Schonefeld:
You mentioned to me last night, that you listened to the Glenn Hickman episode and you agree that the vaccination is the path forward. Can you share your thoughts on that?
Coke Anderson:
Well, I'm old style, but I'm old enough to remember polio in people, and to know what that vaccine did for this country, because I knew people in an iron lung. I knew people who didn't survive, or who survived with lifelong disabilities, so I've seen firsthand what vaccination can do, and vaccination can do the same thing for our flocks. That's what we've done over the years. That's what we did with all of the diseases that have come our way, we used the science, and we took that scientific knowledge to prepare our birds to fight off disease. And that's what you're doing with vaccination, you're just trying to up the bird's immune system so they can fight back.
Greg Schonefeld:
So, if a vaccine is what's needed for HPAI, is there a way we can get there?
Coke Anderson:
Well, probably. We have to talk to other countries, because the problem is with meat-birds particularly, they are so dependent on exports that it would be devastating to them if they couldn't export to other countries. And there are some countries who will not recognize vaccination as what it is, a preventative, and they just don't want any birds that would test positive, even just for the vaccination, not the live virus. So there has to be a lot of talk, but one of the things that's happening is this is becoming worldwide, and more and more countries are more sympathetic to the idea of vaccinating when they have had the same issue. And I understand that France had a problem exporting their ducks when they vaccinated for this, but that initial resistance has faded considerably, so maybe we look at what's happened with others.
Greg Schonefeld:
And then to round things out here, as someone who played such a huge role in shaping the poultry business over the last few decades, I wanted to mine Coke's experience for the leadership lessons she learned along the way. So another thing you talked about early in the conversation, first training your daughters to help around the house, but also working with your employees, building a team. Do you think your teaching background helped you as a leader in your organization?
Coke Anderson:
I look back on my life, and I can honestly say that everything I did has helped me to get where I am. Your experiences shape you a lot. The teaching part, yeah, probably so, but everything. Everything we do. Learning is never wasted. If you learn something or you do something, it's amazing how often that random knowledge comes to help you out later on.
Greg Schonefeld:
That's beautiful. I really like that. And you've described the team you have today, where you can be at your stage in the business, you'd be 84 years old, you maybe have some involvement, but you've built a team.
Coke Anderson:
Yes, and I trust them.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yep. And it takes something to get it to that point. What did it take?
Coke Anderson:
Well, it took trust in the people, and time to be with the people, and then it took expressing an interest in what they thought. It's not just, "Here's how I want it, and this is what you do. Okay, you're in this job now, what What do you see? What do you think?" Even when I started my own Coke's Poultry Service, because we needed more workers, I didn't have enough people. I didn't have enough work, or enough birds of my own, so I went out to other companies and worked for them. And when I hired people, I worked with them physically. I showed them, then I worked with them, and I might spend the whole day just working with them. And then when we got together and maybe got in the van, and went back, I'd say, "Well, what did you see? What did you notice about these barns, these things?" I got them to look at what was going on and to observe, and then I got their feedback, and then I told them what I saw.
And sometimes they saw things I didn't even begin to think. If you give people the opportunity to observe, and then report back to you what they observed, and then you comment on that, and then you give them authority to go ahead and permission to fail once in a while, I think that creates a certain amount of confidence and trust, that they feel like they can go ahead and do that. Now, there are times I want them to check back before they do something totally off the wall.
Greg Schonefeld:
Sure.
Coke Anderson:
But I think it has to be not just a top-down management style, it has to be bottom-up too. Because yes, I'm the final decision maker, but they're in it, and they're seeing things that I'm not seeing, so I need to hear from them what they see and what they think, and together we'll make good decisions.
Greg Schonefeld:
I'm feeling like we could do a whole other episode just on leadership. But I do want to just touch on one other thing, because part of the reason I went here is because I had someone share with me last night, Lisa Henning, the impact you've had on her. And so I'm getting to hear that in your operations, and the people you worked with closely on a day-to-day basis, but it sounds like that extended beyond that, into the industry. Can you just talk a little bit about what your attitude on that was, or your approach? I mean, to want to help people who aren't even in your organization, how did you think about that?
Coke Anderson:
Well, last night's Industrymen of the Year are-
Greg Schonefeld:
Hall of Fame inductee.
Coke Anderson:
Yes. Hall of Fame, that's the new term. Craig Rolls is a shining example of somebody who takes initiative, reaches out, shares knowledge, and wants to make everybody around them better. And I've tried to do that most of my life, and I haven't done it nearly as well as Craig Rolls has done. But I think my attitude has always been cooperative rather than competitive. I want to do well, but I also want to watch others do well, and that's probably been the guiding principle throughout my entire life.
Greg Schonefeld:
I find that beautiful as well. Thank you for sharing. And I mean, the impact, I mean, why I'm sitting with you today, is your name came up, and it's because the impact you've had, and that's how I got referred to you in the first place, so there's something you've done right.
Coke Anderson:
Well, that is good to know.
Greg Schonefeld:
Just two more quick-hitters here.
Coke Anderson:
Okay.
Greg Schonefeld:
What worries you most about the future of the egg industry?
Coke Anderson:
Well, I'm a member of United Egg Producers, and I hope that we stay united. Throughout this cage-free conventional debate, there's been some friction, but I think we've gone beyond that, to understanding that there's a place for everyone. But I do worry about our industry's changing. It's more expensive to be in this industry than it was when I started, and I see that it will probably end up in fewer hands. I hope that those hands are looking out, as they have been in the past, to the welfare of everybody, because the business that we're in is feeding people. Ultimately, that's what we do. And I hope that we can continue to do it as economically as possible, because there are a lot of people in this world who are needing food, and I would hope we would not unnecessarily burden ourselves with rules and regulations that would interfere with our ability to feed the population.
Greg Schonefeld:
And with that, what gives you hope that good things are in the future for the egg industry?
Coke Anderson:
I see a lot of good young people in our industry, and that is a joy to me. And I can't tell you how impressed I have been by the ones I've seen at the convention we had here, and the young people I see coming in with enthusiasm. I truly have enjoyed seeing people come back to the industry, that maybe tried it, thought, "Oh, I'll do something else," and then it came back.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah. So, to see the talent and the attitudes, and you talked earlier about your cooperative nature, and wanting to see the success in others, you see people with that potential.
Coke Anderson:
I do. I truly do.
Greg Schonefeld:
That's Coke Anderson, a true leader who bootstrapped her way into growing a poultry operation from the ground up, and making her way to lead one of the most influential organizations in the industry, in the American Egg Board. Coke navigated through some choppy waters for poultry and saw them come out the other side, so I find it reassuring to hear that despite the turbulence of cage-free mandates and HPAI outbreaks, that she remains optimistic about the future of the industry. And a big part of that optimism comes from seeing the ambition and industriousness of the young men and women entering the poultry business today, and that trend should fill us all with hope, and inspire us to keep selling our industry to bring more of that talent into the fold. Now, after we seem to have touched on every major issue in our little corner of the world, I just needed one more important piece of info out of Coke. I have one last question for you, Coke, how do you prefer your eggs?
Coke Anderson:
Just like me, scrambled.
Greg Schonefeld:
That's great.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a colleague or friend. Word of mouth really helps us to grow the show. And to make sure you don't miss a single episode, follow Eggheads on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Until next time, I'm Greg Schonefeld, and we'll talk to you soon.