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Career education is a vital pipeline to high demand jobs in the workforce. Students from all walks of life benefit from the opportunity to pursue their career education goals and find new employment opportunities. Join Dr. Jason Altmire, President and CEO of Career Education Colleges and Universities (CECU), as he discusses the issues and innovations affecting postsecondary career education. Twice monthly, he and his guests discuss politics, business, and current events impacting education and public policy.
Jason Altmire [00:00:05]:
Welcome back to the Career Education Report podcast. I am Jason Altmire. Today we're going to talk about career schools and the trades and the importance of filling the skills gap for workforce demand in high demand professions, especially in the skilled trades. And we have a guest today who may not be aware, but he's become a favorite of the sector because he has such a compelling story to tell and he has a fan base and a fan club all across America because he's been featured in the Washington Post and cnn. And I know he's done a bunch of podcasts in addition to this one. His name is Darnell Epps and he is the CEO of Thurgood Industries. We're going to talk about what that is. He is a recent graduate of Yale Law School in May of 2024.
Jason Altmire [00:00:58]:
He has an incredibly compelling background which we will get into. And he's also a graduate of a technical school, Lincoln Technical Institute. He graduated from their East Windsor, Connecticut campus and he did that while he was going to law school. He did them simultaneously. So, Darnell, thank you so much for being with us.
Darnell Epps [00:01:20]:
Thank you, Jason. Happy to be here.
Jason Altmire [00:01:23]:
Let's start with your background from New York City where you came from. The fact that you such a high achiever and you've done so much already in your life in the background that you came from is an amazing story in and of itself.
Darnell Epps [00:01:38]:
Yeah, you know, I grew up in housing projects in Brooklyn and you know, at that time trade careers and, you know, work in advanced industry wasn't really an option for many people. I went to Sheepshead Bay High School, played football. The trajectory of my journey followed the path of so many others. You know, I mean, support poor choices as a kid and found myself ensnared by the legal system. But I took, you know, my first college course while I was in the system and eventually matriculated at Cornell University where I majored in government and minored in law in society. And it was always, you know, kind of my dream to attend law school. And I applied to Yale not knowing if I would get accepted. And I was.
Darnell Epps [00:02:28]:
And you know, I moved to the state of Connecticut at that time. But it was that experience and particularly my clinical work at the law school when I was working on a community law library project that brought me face to face with, you know, a lot of low income residents in the greater New Haven area who were looking for middle class careers that didn't require a four year degree. Kind of reminded me of, you know, where I grew up and, you know, the Opportunities that people needed then and still need today and throughout our urban centers in rural America as well. But it just by chance, I happened to meet an investor, Matt Blodgett, who was discussing the skills gap in our advanced manufacturing sector. And I met Jacob Rutenberg. For people who don't know who that is part of Yale Law School is named after Darrell Rutenberg, which is his grandfather. And Jacob was working at Tinecom Venture Partners. So Tinecom has a portfolio of manufacturing companies throughout the United States, from Watlow to Dexter to Penn Engineering.
Darnell Epps [00:03:36]:
And what he said was that they all had trouble finding entry level talent to fill some of these technical roles. And that many of the older workers were retiring, the boomers, they were no longer staying on the job. They had put many decades work and they were taking that tribal knowledge with them. And you know, at the same time in New Haven specifically, there was a 26% poverty rate with a median household income of $42,000. And I thought we could do better. I knew employers like General Dynamics electric boat needed 15,000 entry level workers over the next three years. I knew Sikorsky had at that time 180 job openings. They were looking to fill union jobs that, you know, offered pay well above what's considered a living wage in a country today.
Darnell Epps [00:04:30]:
And I felt like, how could we get that message to the communities where the hunger for economic opportunity appeared to be greatest? But I knew nothing about manufacturing. So as my second year of law school, you know, how do I become an ambassador for work in this space? How do I get the learnings needed to really understand the kinds of skills employers were looking for? And this was at a time when VR was a thing and Mark Zuckerberg's avatar was all over the Internet. And, you know, that was promoted as a new frontier for human interconnectivity. And I kind of tried out different hardware that was out there to see if, you know, maybe we could provide some form of free skills training to people through these new technologies. But the hardware really didn't impress me. It really didn't seem like at this time it was at a place where it would be an effective tool to upskill workers. So I enrolled at a local technical college, and that was Lincoln Technical Institute, which was in East Windsor, Connecticut. So it was quite an ask because typically you're not allowed to attend two different schools while you're in law school.
Darnell Epps [00:05:47]:
So I had to get permission from Yale to enroll at Lincoln Tech, which I did. And I remember one of the dean's emails in response she said, I never had to ask like this before, but okay. So I tailored my coursework. So I took all my law classes in the morning. And then I drove roughly one hour to East Windsor and threw all my Lincoln Tech uniform, my Timberland boots, and I hopped on a multi axis CNC machine. And, you know, I met some great friends, instructors, and I developed a deep appreciation for the work that's being done in this space. And I felt like, you know, more people should have these opportunities as well. I ended up meeting with talent acquisition folks at Sikorsky and other companies.
Darnell Epps [00:06:37]:
You know, we went on these field trips and I heard them talk about the labor crisis and the need for more skilled workers. And I was like, wow, this is really a huge problem. And then also, you know, there were reports out there by Deloitte, for instance, that indicated by 2032.1 million advanced manufacturing jobs expected to go unfilled due to the existing skills gap in our advanced manufacturing sector. You know, and I kind of thought it was quite odd because I only had like two other students in my Lincoln Tech machining class, but I had 50 or so in Yale Torts. And it just really highlighted for me where our national priorities were. We were no longer, you know, a nation of builders, right? Becoming less so at least. And I seen that as a huge problem. And I wanted to devote my career to educating people about the meaningful and great opportunities they could pursue through the trades and through work in advanced industry.
Darnell Epps [00:07:45]:
And one of the most remarkable benefits from jobs in this space, from what I learned was how many, virtually all the employers that I talked with, from Lake Bell to, in Kentucky to Sikorsky and others, offered some form of tuition reimbursement. So even someone who wanted to pursue a four year degree, say, in mechanical engineering, could still straight out of high school with some CT background, get a job as a machinist, earn a good wage, or work as a welder, buy your first home by the time you're 24 and not have to take out a massive loan. So it's an alternative pathway for many people and it's a way of kind of spurring upward mobility. And, you know, but these aren't career paths that are really laid out for people. You know, high school counselors typically don't tell someone, well, you could work at Link Belt or you could work at General Dynamics, save up that down payment for your first home and still go to school part time and get your engineering degree and do well for yourself and for your family. So the work of this space is really devoted to helping people find their dream careers without, you know, incurred a ton of debt in the process.
Jason Altmire [00:09:02]:
It's unimaginable how difficult and just taxing physically and mentally. That schedule that you kept must have been the hour drive going to Yale Law School of all places, then Lincoln Tech. You're trying to build a business while all this is going on and you left out the fact you have two young children.
Darnell Epps [00:09:25]:
Exactly, I had two young children. And well, that was one of the best parts of going to Lincoln Tech was I was coming home with all these cool toys and assembly, you know, parts that I was building in the machining program. The first gavel that I machined, that I gave to my son. But it was a challenge. It was, you know, you could imagine me eating lunch in a car, a sandwich, scarfing it down while I'm driving to East Windsor in between classes. And you know, I, I believed in this mission so much that, you know, I basically gave up a huge portion of my law school experience to, to make it happen. And it was just that level of devotion that I thought was needed based on what I was seeing and what I felt people were looking for. And yeah, my wife, she thought I was nuts for and, but she really supported me as I work to build this business and got to give her tremendous credit as well.
Jason Altmire [00:10:31]:
When people think about career and technical schools, you touched on the fact that a lot of times guidance counselors don't think to provide that as advice to students as an option. It's changing a little bit, but we still have folks that look at that traditional four year path is really the gold standard of higher education. And as you pointed out, there is a lack of understanding about what career and technical schools do. And you found at Lincoln Tech, the programs that you were dealing with with machinists was incredibly technical. And maybe you could describe the type of drilling and grinding and milling and the level of precision that is required that I think a lot of people wouldn't understand.
Darnell Epps [00:11:21]:
Yeah, I mean these, you know, jobs that require you hold holding tolerances to one thousandth of an inch. Right. Reading, you know, complex blueprints at times learning GD&T and G code and M code and operating, you know, and also learning how to tool path on mastercam. So CAD cam modeling, there's a lot of digital skills that are associated with this work as well if you're a programmer. So it was very challenging because I went from reading case law, which is very subjective at times, everybody could have a different interpretation of what the 14th Amendment means or what substantive due process means, but not in machining. It's strict rules that you have to abide by or the quality of the, the part you produce is not going to be up to standard and ultimately the business owner can't make any money. So I mean, it's a lot that goes into this work. Took a lot of, you know, studying, getting those NIMS credentials and preparing myself, a lot of the hands, all work I was doing, it tapped into a different part of the brain.
Darnell Epps [00:12:33]:
Right. And it's intellectually stimulating and rewarding work. That much I could sit in.
Jason Altmire [00:12:40]:
Yeah, it sounds like you obviously have accomplished a lot academically in traditional settings with regard to your undergrad and then law school and the fact that you know how to study, you know how difficult and challenging that work can be. And then on the other side with Lincoln Tech, what you found was. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that is equally taxing and difficult. And for folks who think that pursuing that as a educational opportunity and then a career thereafter, that, well, that's taken the easy way out. That's not what you found?
Darnell Epps [00:13:17]:
No, not at all. My instructor was a veteran machinist, Paul Gallo, and bited by the machinist handbook. He was very old school and you know, and he held us to a high standard. And it's not something you're going to just cruise through. You really have to learn these skills in order to be a good employee. And you know, it's definitely something that's going to require a good amount of your time. But again, you get the certification in one year, so you're not in school for, you know, four years. Right.
Darnell Epps [00:13:51]:
That's why there's a lot of advocacy around short term pell right now for shorter upskilling programs to help accelerate people into the workforce faster. You know, I think Congress needs to probably take some steps in that direction. When you think of all the investment that's being made in advanced manufacturing today, you think of semiconductors, all the fabtechs they're going to need filling some of those facilities. By the way, the CEO of Intel is also a Lincoln Tech graduate too. So I will send that shout out as well.
Jason Altmire [00:14:25]:
That's right. You've done a lot and you do have a fan club, but you are still only the second most prominent graduate of Lincoln Tech so far. I have a feeling that that could change. But for right now, you touched on short term power. I was actually going to ask you a related question that there's a political issue Surrounding that on whether or not for profit schools should be included in the short term Pell that's being debated in Congress right now. Lincoln Technical Institute, which you attended, of course, for profit school. It's a publicly traded school. There are some in Congress that have concerns about for profit schools.
Jason Altmire [00:15:05]:
We talked about your educational experience and the coursework and your success after. But what are your thoughts with regard when you think about that skills gap and the workforce shortage and we want to spend $2 trillion as a country on infrastructure rebuilding America, roads and bridges, ports, locks and dams, airport. And we ask critics of the for profit sector, where do you think those workers are going to come from? If you want to put the Lincoln Techs of the world, the for profit schools, if you want to put them out of business, where are the workers going to come from? Because they're producing a sizable portion, in some cases a majority of the workers across various trades that are going to actually do that hands on work. What are your thoughts on that debate?
Darnell Epps [00:15:54]:
Yeah, the education I received was a high quality education at Lincoln Tech. Right. It was well worth the money that was paid for the certification. Lincoln Tech has partnerships with Tesla, BMW, other huge automotive companies as well that help accelerate people into paying careers. You think of BMW and it's STEP program or the Tesla Start program if you visit the Grand Prairie campus down in Texas and these, you know, I have friends who are technicians at Tesla and they're making good money and they love their work. And yeah, as far as like short term Pell, I don't see why you would exclude a program like Lincoln Tech that's meeting its job placement standards that are set. You know, people are, you know, finding careers in the fields that they're studying. And I don't see why we would adopt a policy that categorically excludes schools that are doing good work.
Darnell Epps [00:16:54]:
I also think about like what's a sustainable model for, you know, workforce development more broadly? There are plenty of programs and nonprofits like the Gene Haas E. Kentucky Advanced Manufacturing Institute in eastern Kentucky to name one, that offers free skills training and others. But they rely on grants and sometimes that grant money is not there which jeopardizes the entire program. And sometimes you see these programs have to shut down. So we need to be able to find ways to subsidize upskilling to get workers into these good paying jobs. And as long as schools are doing great work, I don't see why Congress would adopt measures that categorically exclude these schools from the benefits of short term Pell and Giving people agency to decide where they want to get their training and to shop around for what are the best options for them.
Jason Altmire [00:17:51]:
I wanted to close by talking about your company, Thurgood Industries, which is related. And part of the issue with the workforce shortages is there are skilled workers out there. As you're talking about, there are schools that are producing skilled workers across various trades, but there's not always a way to connect those workers to employers that have jobs that need to be filled. And that's part of the work that you're doing at Thurgood Industries. So can you talk a little bit about that?
Darnell Epps [00:18:23]:
Yeah. Our focus at Thurgood has always been on empowering trade schools and their students by providing the tools needed to thrive in today's job market. We know that trade schools are preparing students for some of the most essential and high demand careers, from robotics technicians to welders to electricians. But we also recognize the challenges that come with bridging the gap between students and employers. We build a platform right now that doesn't just serve students, it serves schools too. One of the key ways we're helping trade schools is by offering a free CRM that allows them to manage their employer relationships more efficiently. It's a tool where schools can easily track which employers are interested in. Their students, follow up with potential job leads, and help ensure that their graduates are seen by the right companies.
Darnell Epps [00:19:14]:
But our support goes beyond just tools as well. We're also committed to elevating the image of the skilled trades and showcasing the incredible work that trades students are doing. Through our platform, students can create detailed profiles, share their projects, and even take assessments that verify their skills. By doing so, we help students stand out in the job market while providing employers with a reliable way to find talent. So, you know, there are so many students that I connected with at Lincoln Tech and Porter and Chester Institute and other schools where, you know, they just don't have LinkedIn profiles. They're not on LinkedIn. It wasn't a platform that was designed for them. In essence, you know, we're trying to amplify their marketing power.
Darnell Epps [00:19:58]:
We're trying to, you know, connect them with employers and help them find the careers of their dreams. So it's something we've launched in the New England area and we partnered with two multi campus schools from Lake and Tech to Porter and Chester Institute. But we're looking to expand to more career colleges and vocational schools as well. So. And so I'm happy to hear back from any schools that are interested in partnering with Thurgood on its mission.
Jason Altmire [00:20:27]:
And if somebody wanted to get in touch with Thurgood Industries and learn more about the business or learn more about Darnell Epps as a person and you and your background, how would they find you?
Darnell Epps [00:20:40]:
You could find me@darnellurgood.work. that's my email. You could send me an email or you could reach out to me on LinkedIn. Either or is good. So my email is Darnell D A R N E L L Thurgood T H U R G O O D Work. Feel free to send me an email and we can follow up and work together to solve what no doubt is a crisis right now in our country.
Jason Altmire [00:21:10]:
Darnell, it's been a pleasure talking to you. I'm so glad that you're out there telling the story. Congratulations on all your success. I'm inspired by your work and your message and what you have done and really looking forward to seeing you grow in the future. Thank you for being with us.
Darnell Epps [00:21:26]:
Thanks, Jason. I appreciate it.
Jason Altmire [00:21:32]:
Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Career Education Report. Subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information, visit our website@career.org and follow us on Twitter @CECUED. That's Cecu Ed. Thank you for listening.