Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
Tyson (00:00.046)
We'll jump, that's recording now. Hey, man, did you pay any attention to the US track and field trials at all? I know that's a different realm of distance to what you're running in, but man, it got me excited watching some of the performances over the middle distance that some of the guys and gals were running over there.
Zach Bitter (00:17.306)
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I started, I followed it pretty close when I was in college and competing and stuff at those distances. And I sort of like lost touch for a few years in there, but the last couple of years I've been kind of getting into it, like following Diamond League and stuff like that. So I was all over the trials this year.
Tyson (00:35.118)
Yeah, I can't wait. I reckon, I don't know how familiar you are with names, but Cole Hocker and Hobbs Kessler, they look unbelievable, man. Like I watched the final of the 15 and then I watched Hobbs run the 800 final. I reckon they're both real dangers in that Olympic final if they can get through safely. Cause they're, I mean, Hobbs ran 143 over 800 a couple of days after his 1500 final. Cole just looked ridiculous over that last lap actually of the 1500.
Zach Bitter (00:40.314)
yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Zach Bitter (00:50.362)
Mm -hmm.
Tyson (01:03.598)
But it's, yeah, that's one race that I'm really looking forward to in Paris is that 1500 because the depth that we see from all around the world is kind of mind blowing. But man, as an American, it must be exciting. Even as an Australian, we've got a couple of young up and comers. I don't know that they're quite going to be able to rub shoulders with the likes of the athletes I've just mentioned, but yeah, I'm hanging out, man. I don't know if you thought too much about Paris at this stage.
Zach Bitter (01:04.154)
Mm -hmm.
Zach Bitter (01:26.97)
Yeah, yeah, no, I've been kind of following the storylines and stuff a fair bit. So yeah, you've got some some some heavy hitters coming coming to Paris from Australia this year. I think you'll be be happy with the results when it's all said and done.
Tyson (01:41.07)
for sure. We've got a, we've got a young guy. I don't think he's actually been selected. His name's Cam Myers. He's 17 years old. He's run a three 50 mile. he ran, I think he's run three 33 for 1500. He's kind of coming through and breaking a lot of Inga Briggs and age group records. So I was kind of disappointed he didn't get selected, but I reckon he's a guy to watch in, in the next Olympics, especially hopefully everything sort of, goes in one direction and stays strong. But yeah, man, it's a, it's exciting times.
Zach Bitter (01:56.538)
wow.
Tyson (02:08.846)
It's funny. I wonder how a bloke like yourself feels because obviously the marathon is probably one of the closest to any of your interest points when it comes to an actual competitive race. Is that something you follow fairly closely or yeah? Cause it's blown my mind how involved I've been in the world of distance running for so many years and how ultra running and marathon running even.
still seem like they're relatively different universes. Like, a bloke who would say he knows quite a lot about the world of track and field and up to the marathon. I feel as though the world of ultra running is a relatively new venture or at least interest point for me.
Zach Bitter (02:34.074)
Yeah.
Zach Bitter (02:45.658)
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely still kind of like two different, I would say, categories. But I think we're starting to see some interest come in. I think the ultra runners have probably been more interested in the Olympic distance stuff just due to its, you know, bigger nature for a while. But and some aren't, I suppose the trail runners are maybe a little less so into it. But we're getting more interest from kind of the typical Olympic distance runner now to where.
There was an interview, this might actually be a couple years old at this point, where Kipchoge was talking about not gonna do an ultra marathon at some point. If he wants to do one, who wouldn't, right? That's the big guy right there. It's fun to kind of see that the sport grow to the degree where it's not just kind of like it's off to the corner, this is where the crazy people go when they don't run or run marathons anymore type of a scenario. It's fun, but.
But yeah, I mean, I've been, you know, I've been, I would say historically I've probably followed the marathon a little closer than like typical track and field stuff at the last year. So I probably followed track and field a little bit more. Maybe that's just, just because I think with, once you start kind of getting into diamond league and starting to watch stuff, that's like a little bit more off the radar for the average person. Then you start kind of getting a little more invested in it. Cause some of the people's storylines, their trajectory and things like that. And then times up well with the Olympic trials and then the Olympics here coming up. So.
yeah, it's been a lot of fun to watch some of those guys. And like you said, it's just like, I feel like if there's just been a lot of growth in some disciplines with like us distance running, I think we're seeing that with the 1500 where, you know, you have the Josh curves of the world and the Engelberg since of the world, but like yard and a goose is kind of right there. I think people probably thought Cole Hawker was like, maybe a little bit of the outside looking in from a metal standpoint, but after the trials, he's probably just as feared as.
as anybody in terms of kind of contending for a medal. And he had an interview that I thought was kind of interesting where he's like, because you know, that race got out fast. He's like, I don't think I've kicked at that pace before or off that pace before. So it's like he's I think he's sensing like the leveling up that he has available to him if he keeps kind of grinding away. But he's just one where he's been around for a while, it seems like, despite only being 24 years old.
Zach Bitter (05:02.49)
So he's got a long runway ahead of him still. So it's gonna be fun to see those guys all kind of mix it up with everyone at the Olympics.
Tyson (05:03.182)
Yeah.
Tyson (05:11.214)
For sure. That kind of blew my mind as well. Like that, the fact that, so before the race, I was fairly confident he'd be around the mark on that last lap. Cause he always seems to be, as you say, from the age of like 18 or 19, you know, when he sets foot on the start line, he's kind of like a Nick Willis or a Centrowitz at his best. You just know he's going to be in contention, but yeah, to kick past Nagoos. And I think it was with like 250 to go. I was anticipating if you were going to run past a bloke like Nagoos, you'd take him with 50 meters to go because.
Well, we know he's run a three 43 mile, so you wouldn't want it. You wouldn't want to do too much too early, but yeah, obviously ran with, with some incredible confidence. there's an Australian man who, who's kind of blown everyone's mind at the moment as well. Her name is Jess Hull. She just ran the fifth fastest. She ran, it was like a five second PB over 1500. I'd say like the let's run message boards have lit up because there's two sides of the argument, like the one side of the argument.
Zach Bitter (05:43.29)
Yeah. Yeah.
Zach Bitter (05:55.002)
yeah, I saw that.
Yes.
Tyson (06:06.926)
which I like to lean more towards is this is the most incredible run. What a breakthrough, how awesome. And the other side of the argument is who at the age of 27, after being competitive for so long, takes five seconds off their 1500 meter best time. So she's kind of copying a little bit of heat, which I guess naturally comes with a performance like that. But yeah, she's a, she's another standout point. Anyway, it'd be really interesting to see how the next kind of month and a half plays out. But yeah, there's, there's definitely some depth in the, in the, in the track and field world, but
Zach Bitter (06:18.298)
Yeah.
Tyson (06:36.366)
Man, enough about all them. How are you going? How's life for you?
Zach Bitter (06:41.146)
Good, yeah, yeah, things are great. I think like at this point, we were trying, I can't remember if we hit record or yet at this point, but I, you know, I've been in Austin now for two and a half years. So starting to get kind of comfortable and efficient here in Austin, which is always good from a, just a training standpoint. Cause I do like to kind of stay busy outside of training and racing and things like that. But I just ran a hundred miler, I guess it was through almost three weeks ago at this point ran 11 51 at a race called six days in the dome.
in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And that was probably my first, like what I would consider like maybe my second like solid performance since I had kind of a string of injuries. So I'm sort of getting to that point where I've been able to stack a few blocks of training now or some training cycles together where I find like for me, I'm not one of those guys where it's like, you get a few weeks of training in and you're like, you're off to the races. I'm the type of guy who's like, I need to like go through a full training cycle, a race.
another training cycle, a race, and then I start getting kind of where I feel like I'm able to kind of access all the tools I've had available historically. So yeah, so it's been a good stretch of training and I'm kind of looking forward to picking some races for the second half of the year.
Tyson (07:50.254)
Yeah. I was really keen to pick your brain about, the, the training element of the ultra running, especially. And I mean, you've just touched on something that I was, I've been really fascinated by recently. I had, I'm not sure how familiar you are in the, with the iron man world, but I had the grip Mark Allen, for anyone listening, he's six time iron man. Well, champ he was on last week. And one of the really popular parts of the conversation was what you just touched on then. And it was just the way that different athletes reach.
Zach Bitter (08:06.554)
yeah.
Tyson (08:19.374)
a high level of fitness. We spoke about the varying sort of approaches, like some athletes take that, hey, let's get some real intensity, some real volume in real quick and get fit real quick, but risk running the red line and potentially getting injured or fatigued or niggles. And he said for him, he took like a really, it's quite popular in 2024 as we record this, a low heart rate or a zone two or a slower approach to
so much of his training inspired by Phil Maffetone back in like the late eighties, early nineties. He said, often it'll take a little while for your body to get fitter, but if you are patient and you are consistent, you're able to absorb it. And naturally that consistency, the strength that comes with that kind of consistency lends itself to better performances. So the way you just sort of set out your lead back to a much better performance after your string of injuries,
sort of sounds like you're leaning to that second side of the conversation. Is that true? Like how do you approach the building blocks of your training phases?
Zach Bitter (09:27.258)
Yeah, yeah, I find this one to be a really interesting topic. I mean, you can find any sort of training plan from like I did nothing and I'm on a starting line of 100 mile course to like, you know, all these different like approaches. What I find that I think works best is kind of picking the different and working on all the intensities you would for like a typical endurance race, Olympic distance type stuff. But the big question is going to be like order of operations and
All of them that I would say would have been similar would be kind of in line with like what Mark Allen was likely talking about or Dr. Phil Maffetone where if you can get a really strong foundation and really like from a time standpoint, the more time the better it seems to me. And eventually people run out of time and you know, or they just can't really tolerate any more volume from the impact of running. And they kind of get to a more of like a plateauing phase where like they really need to pull another lever. If you can get there, then I think like
starting kind of a maybe 16 week trajectory or so to whatever race you're going to do. For me, that's like a hundred miles and then work from like some kind of in doing like a speed work development phase. I would like to do that. Just kind of pull the whole system up a bit. But then when I get kind of closer to the race itself, it's kind of back to the zone to base training type miles and just stacking a bunch of those kind of consolidating them into tighter timeframes in order to kind of like replicate the race day setting a little bit better. So for me, you know, it'll be like
I'll do like a series of long and or I'm sorry, short and long intervals, kind of pin to VO two max for the short intervals, lactate threshold for the long intervals. And I'll do like a phase or a block of training of that in there, kind of sandwich between like two big boluses, like lower intensity volume where there's not a whole lot of speed work involved in that. So yeah, it's pretty heavy on the low intensity stuff for ultra marathon running. I think that kind of makes sense because it's also race intensity for the most part.
but I do like the speed work development phases, a nice break in action. And, I'm actually in that one right now. So a lot of times when I'm finished a race, if I recover well and I'm not taking like a longer than average off season, usually I'll jump into a speed work development phase pretty quick when I start structuring things again, because I'm kind of coming off a phase where I just tapped into a lot of like kind of lower intensity training as I went through like the long, the ultra long run development phase of training.
Zach Bitter (11:52.826)
And the level of improvement I have at that intensity, there's a pretty small margin there, whereas I'm a little more separated from some of the faster stuff, some of the moderate to higher intensity stuff. So I'll usually do a block of that before I kind of get back into the more specific stuff. And what I find happens when I do that right and I stay healthy through it is that when I kind of come back to the low intensity stuff after a speed work driving phase,
I'm just running faster at that same intensity. So then I can get like a little bit of value for every minute I spend at that intensity. I'm actually moving a little bit quicker. So it's sort of like just kind of pulling that whole system up a bit, then really lean into that system, that zone two intensity just below aerobic threshold. And I just spend a lot of time in that.
Tyson (12:40.942)
Yeah, that makes sense. That was one thing that I always used to when I was competing at a higher level, but even now, I mean, just for a little context, I'm training for the Melbourne marathon, which is taking place in October. I'm not aiming to break any world records. I think I'll like my goal currently based on where I'm at is like, I'd like to just run sub 240. And then from there, I'd like to, you know, commit the next couple of years to it. So I'm toying with a couple of different approaches myself, but the one thing that I've carried through, which you just mentioned,
which I find so beneficial is, regardless of what distance it is, just doing a little bit of work, which is faster than race pace for the exact reason you just said. It's amazing when you go out and you get used to running, you know, however much faster than race pace, and then you're required to run race pace that psychology or the psychological impact of that is, is amazing. It's nice to look down at your watch and be like, like, I'm so glad to see that was a faster time that I was anticipating. Cause even now I haven't done a heap of work.
which is much faster than like three minute 20 per K pace. I can't, I'm not great at converting that to the, to the mile, to the, to the mile pace. So I'm sorry for any American listeners, but, that's, I've got a half marathon race next week and I'm kind of just aiming to go at it around three 30 to three 36 pace and see how long I can hold that for. But already I'm like in the back of my mind, I'm like, I haven't done a whole heap of work at much faster than that pace. That'll be really, be really interesting to see how it plays out.
Mark Allen always, sorry, also just to go back to that conversation, he actually mentioned, and I can't point you to the research, but he mentioned it, that there is some research coming out, which suggests that like early on in a training block, the actual higher intensity, shorter rep efforts can bring you back to a, like a higher physiological fitness quite quick, rather than taking that.
longer, slower buildup. And he goes, if you can get that balance right of, of injecting some pace, some intensity, you know, early in a training block and then just navigating when to back it off, that can be quite beneficial in bringing you to a particular level of fitness that would otherwise take you a few months to get to. I don't know if that's any part of the equation for you.
Zach Bitter (14:55.354)
Yeah, I mean, the way I kind of look at it is like, I think of it as like opportunity cost. So like, let's say I'm kind of coming off an off season, I go out for like a zone to run. and I noticed that I'm running 30 seconds per mile slower than I normally would at that. The opportunity costs for me to do speed work during that, at that point is actually pretty poor in favor of not doing it because I can
likely directly improve that before implementing the speed or development phase. Whereas if I come in and I'm like, okay, I do a few base runs at like aerobic threshold zone two type stuff. And I notice, all right, well, my pace is as fast as ever been. Well, then my opportunity cost of doing less of that and injecting something else in there is a real good, a good exchange. So I'm usually looking at it through that lens. It's like assuming I don't have some sort of time limitation that I've already maximized.
or some reason to believe that the current input is going to still create adaptations. I'm going to stick with the intensity that I'm trying to improve because that's going to be the most direct. But if that isn't the case, if it's like, well, I can't really stand to improve on this by any meaningful margin by continuing to do it, then I think the speed work development is just going to be that value add where now I can maintain what I've already acquired at the lower intensity stuff with less input.
And since I'm putting in less input, I've freed up some time to do or to dedicate more of my training load towards the speed work stuff. But kind of the same rule applies with the speed work too. If I get out there and I'm doing like short intervals and long intervals and I get to a point where I'm sort of running paces that are like historically fast for me, you know, for me to keep doing that at that point above and beyond what would be required to just maintain it is a bigger opportunity cost than going back to the, the
the zone to stuff that I'm going to, that's going to be more specific to my race. And usually if I time it right, I'm kind of like arriving at a point in time where I'm like maybe eight weeks out from a hundred mile race. And then I do really want to start working on the race specific stuff. So I'm sort of exiting that speed work development phase at that point and kind of sliding in. I think the interesting thing about the marathon and even the half marathon to some degree is like, it's sort of, is this like middle ground intensity where whatever kind of traditional workouts you do other than like goal race pace.
Zach Bitter (17:20.986)
you're kind of dancing around it. So I find like those training plans tend to just be a little more varied in nature across the board than than what I would see for something as kind of far to the end of the spectrum, like ultra running or as far to the other side as like the 1500 or 3000 or something like that.
Tyson (17:38.926)
Yeah. So for an ultra runner, like what, what does speed work look like? Because I think a lot of people are relatively familiar with what that might look like to a 10 K, three K, five K runner. are we talking reps of 2000, 3000 meters, or are you getting down and actually really wanting those, those legs over?
Zach Bitter (17:55.13)
Yeah, yeah, I would say like you see it all. I would say like any workout that you see people doing for 5K, 10K and stuff like that, you'll see ultra runners doing if they're working on speed work. For me personally, like my philosophy is kind of like start very simple and then once you kind of really grasp the concept and are very tuned into the perceived effort, then you can then you have a little bit more flexibility to get creative with it. So.
What I like to do is I like to do short intervals on a one -to -one work -to -rest ratio. And I typically like to be between like 30 seconds and up to four minutes for those. So the sweet spot for the most part of what I'm working to kind of get the bulk in is going to be like on a two to four minute range in those. So if it were two minutes, it'd be like two minutes on, two minutes off, two minutes on, two minutes off. And I'll be targeting like in the early stages, probably 12 to 15 minutes of total work volume for those. And then I'll grow that over the course of that development phase.
For long intervals, I like a two to one to work rest ratio since it's a little lower intensity. It's gonna be closer to my lactate threshold or for listeners that are interested, like an intensity that you could probably stay in for about 60 minutes in a race day setting. And yeah, I'm doing those two to one with like kind of target ranges of around eight to maybe up to 15 minutes for those. And so if that were an example, that could be like three by eight minutes where I'd be eight minutes on, four minutes off, eight minutes on, four minutes off, eight minutes on.
at that intensity. And then I'm usually starting at like somewhere between 20 to 30 minutes of total work for that intensity when I'm bringing that in. And then I might work up to close to 60 minutes of it during the entire training week when I'm kind of in the thick of it for that one. So that's kind of like the basic structure. And then from there, you know, you can do all sorts of creative things like reducing recovery between to kind of make the workout a little bit higher load without adding extra volume.
you can get a little more creative with the interval structure and not just do the same duration for each of them. For one, an adaptation I really like or a progression to that that I really like is once I really get comfortable with knowing that I'm able to hit the intensities I'm intending to do is like I'll do like, I'll do a run where it's basically like a fast finish workout where I'll go and I'll be running basically zone two for the majority of the run, but then I get to like the last third and I'll just start kind of kind of progressing down towards like lactate threshold.
Zach Bitter (20:15.418)
and just kind of finish like with a stronger, stronger push at the end of that run. And I really like those, those type of workouts kind of near the end of speed work development phase, or as I'm phasing out of speed work and phasing into kind of long run development, because it's, it's going to be enough to probably preserve a lot of what I've acquired. And it also gives me the flexibility of like, all right, I'm going to be doing a handful of these, these base zone two type runs during the week.
I can sort of just pick the one where I feel the best on and that one will be the one I do the fast finish on. So it's not even something I necessarily have to like anchor to a specific day. It could be like whichever day I'm feeling the best is gonna be the day I do it. And then I kind of limit the potential risk of a workout like that, which is higher potential for quality to dip at the end because you're heading into that workout with maybe a little more fatigue in your legs.
Tyson (21:05.326)
Yeah. And are you using any data points to decide what it is you do on what day, or is that more based on feel alone?
Zach Bitter (21:13.146)
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of historic data that I'll collect just to kind of know where I see the needle move on it. So I'll base it off of that, but then I'll just be watching that. So I'm always looking at it as, the way I look at it is intensity and heart rate are fixed. Those intensities are gonna be established during your training cycle. And what you wanna see move in the positive direction is your pace. So if I'm working on short intervals, I'm gonna be looking for that intensity to stay the same throughout that build.
but I'm going to be looking for that pace to drop. So at the start of that sort of training cycle, my short interval pace might be like 455 to five minute per mile pace or something like that. The hope is once I start getting into kind of like the range where you should see some adaptations, like four to six weeks or so, I should see that pace starting to kind of come down at that same effort. So the workouts feel the same, but my pace is faster. That's kind of the rule that I, the large, like kind of overreaching rule I'm trying to follow along the way.
Tyson (22:09.71)
Yeah, and you're being guided as you run. Are you wearing a heart rate monitor for the sessions?
Zach Bitter (22:15.354)
I am wearing a heart rate monitor. I'm definitely pacing off of some combination of perceived effort or some predetermined pace that I'm confident is accurate. So a lot of times what I'll do is I'll either do like a race that's close enough in duration or do a time trial to kind of pin a pace to that intensity. So even though pace is a moving target, I can start out with it. So like the first couple of weeks, I can just know like, all right, this is the pace I should be targeting for this workout.
And then once I start feeling that perceived effort starts to lessen over time, that's my kind of signal to kind of recalibrate and speed up a little bit. I'll use heart rate data as a post -workout analysis, but it's just so messy when you start getting into like moderately high to high intensities, where it's just like the reading you're gonna get isn't gonna necessarily match the intensity that you're trying to hit based on a time trial or a race average.
For those, I tend to ignore the heart rate during it, but I will look at it afterwards. I think there's some interesting stuff you can tease out of it. You can see changes in what would be kind of a slow response metric from one workout to the next. Or you can see things like, assuming everything's controlled as much as possible, you can see things like, my heart rate's recovering better in between those intervals. Stuff like that, that I think can be useful. Or how high does my heart rate get?
during that workout by the last interval, or I shouldn't say the last interval, because I may add more along the line, but let's say like I start out with five short intervals, and by that fifth one, my heart rate hits a certain number. And then by like week four, if I do, whether I do five or do six or seven or add more to it, is my heart rate still kind of, is it still taking that long to get up to that? Or have I bought myself more time before it kind of reaches that?
And those are all kind of just signs of efficiency and adaptations taking place. So I think there's some interesting stuff you can tease out of heart rate, even though it tends to be a little bit less precise when you're trying to do intro workout, pace gauging, and stuff like that.
Tyson (24:21.646)
Yeah. And he's just like a, he prescribed to any particular training formula, like one, one person, I think I mentioned him earlier, who's been incredibly popular, if not slightly, well, I'll say incredibly controversial, just because not because I disagree with anything you said, just because it seems that when you start talking about diet, people get very passionate. I had Phil Maffetone on here about three or four months ago, incredible interview, incredible guy, super inspiring.
I've stolen a lot of the tips and guidance that he spoke about throughout that conversation and applied it to my own training. And I think taking, if not a 100 % following of the math method, as I said, I've taken a few features of that. The last 40 weeks or so had the most consistent training that I've had in probably the last eight years. Last year was a write -off for me returning to running.
calf issues, unsure why it turns out just the intensity that I was trying to run was sort of me back in my peak 2014 track and field days. I thought that worked then I didn't get injured. I'll just do that again now. Long story short, it wasn't the right approach. Real humbling experience. Since listening to him and applying so much of his stuff, I'm mind blown at just how much I've taken a real back off in some of the intensity for the initial part of the training block and just gradually started to build that up.
I know for me and so many other athletes, his training approach has been incredibly helpful. Is that something that you followed closely? I feel like the math method specifically is quite beneficial when it comes to the diet as well. It seems that you guys, once you get out beyond the marathon, a lot of serious runners start to take sort of fat fueling more seriously than what I think middle distance to marathon runners currently do.
Zach Bitter (26:12.73)
Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of things there. I would say like in terms of like the math method, if you're looking at a scenario where you really, really minimize risk in terms of like the biggest thing that's likely going to move the needle for people in training, regardless of what strategy they take is consistency. And part of being consistent is being healthy. So if you're finding that doing speed work is creating scenarios where you're getting injured.
missing training and you're unable to kind of consistently train, you know, a system like that where you're more likely to stay healthy is probably going to be a better value add over time for you. So, I mean, the argument there then would be, and I don't know this is necessarily going against like his method, because I think even with his method at a certain point, you start kind of just doing some racing and things like that, which are essentially high level speed workouts. And maybe kind of get some of the access or exposure to that through that sort of stuff.
but yeah, I think like when you think of it like that, it is then I guess the argument there against it though, in general would be eventually you get to a point where, some change or some, some training load variance is going to be required to continue adaptations. So if you've already maximized volume at that intensity, it's like,
what's the next lever you can pull to kind of increase training load without increasing duration. And that's going to just be going a little bit faster. So I think it could just be like someone who's really injury prone. I just think that you might want to be a little more careful. Like you just want to think of it like, all right, well, how do I minimize the injury risk of like a moderate to higher intensity training? And like one, one tool I like to use is just like, do your, your speed work on an incline because you're going to lower the impact and a lot of the variables that would typically lead to injury by doing stuff like that. It's not without risk.
but it's a lowering of the risk or you could just start with doing like very, very subtle. I think when people think of speed work, they kind of get tied to like, what did they did historically or what someone else is doing, what's being prescribed to them. And they're not really aware or willing to kind of just say, Hey, well, maybe I should just do like a third of that workout and see how I respond to it and kind of like micro stress them with their way up and just like say, okay, well, maybe I'm more injury.
Zach Bitter (28:32.474)
prone to speed work, but maybe I just need a longer ramp up for it or less frequent inputs, more rest in between those sessions than what the program is saying. So I think there is price of value adds and kind of looking into that from the nutrition side of things. I think like the math, the math method just very much kind of works well with a lower carbohydrate approach because you're, you're leveraging so much of like your lower intense of the lower intensity input.
It's just going to be something where regardless of your dietary intake, you're going to have higher fat oxidation rates at those intensities. And you're going to be able to leverage that a little bit easier than you would if you're trying to kind of like figure out a way to like get a couple of quality speed work sessions in there. With respect to like ultra running, you know, I would say like most of the like top tier ultra runners are still following some version of a moderate to high carbohydrate diet.
We're actually seeing like that same sort of like push to like hyper fueling to some degree That you're seeing with like Tour de France and triathlon where people are turning sometimes 100 plus grams of carbohydrate per hour I think what at the end of the day the way I usually look at it is like an ultra runner is it's it's I would be shocked if an ultra runner is requiring that much carbohydrate per hour even if it's like
Tyson (29:29.806)
Hmm.
Zach Bitter (29:55.674)
I mean, you may be able to find some exceptions where it's like a shorter than average ultra marathon and someone has like just got a really, really high workload per hour capacity. So someone running like world -class times at those distances, you know, you could maybe make an argument that on a high carbohydrate diet, they're going to still, they're going to probably need to push up to those numbers to some degree or get close to it. but I think there's just with ultra running, what ends up happening is you just have a lot more options available to you because there aren't these limiters.
that there are at a marathon and below where race intensity is moderate to high in a lot of cases. So when you have a scenario like that, you're going to just have to do more of that type of work on most cases. And then you're going to need to leverage the fueling for it a little bit differently. You don't have as much of a tight window for that of what is generally going to work out. I think people will still see a wider range of fueling structures with ultra marathon.
that are likely workable if not optimal for the specific individual. So, I mean, you get someone like myself where for a 100 mile race, you know, I might be targeting around 40 grams per hour for the most part historically. I've played around with going above that, but I just don't see in my own experience a value add there in terms of like a continuing reduction of perceived effort. So, whether that's because, I think there's a couple things to consider with that. One would be,
Is there something to the fact that I follow a low carbohydrate diet that lowers the amount of carbohydrate required for me to maximize the reduction in perceived effort you're going to get with a carbohydrate source present during your racing fueling? The other thing could be like, is there something to just the actual frequency at which you're, you're putting that fuel in. So like an example could be like if someone was taking in fuel three times per hour versus six times per hour.
same amount of carbohydrate in that hour just distributed differently, is the person doing six versus three gonna get a better reduction in perceived effort just because their body's being exposed to that more frequently? In which case then I think you have a lot more opportunities to kind of play around with different amounts then too. So I'm curious about that just in general when you see some of these like, I guess they're mostly anecdotes at this point, but some of the stuff that would suggest like targeting these higher than what would like.
Zach Bitter (32:20.922)
physiologically be required fueling strategies or beyond what you would expect to be able to be like processed and digest within that timeframe. I just wonder if it's like the, in order to hit those numbers, they're just constantly consuming something. And the fact that they're constantly consuming something just means they're doing more exposure points to it. And those additional exposure points are kind of keeping the perceived effort lower on average across the duration of the race or the event to the degree where they're now going faster or feeling better on it.
that was kind of, that was a lot, but it's kind of my thoughts on the matter.
Tyson (32:54.062)
No, no, no. man. I mean, it's, it's a lot, but I know the conversation has been going for years in podcasts, which run for multiple weeks for many hours. So there's so much to cover and there's so many opinions and it's very strange. Like, I don't know how you find it, but yeah, you've got the anecdotal evidence to work with. You've got what the data says, and then you've got what each individual says about their own performance and what they've noticed. And, man, I get how I get how messy it can get. And, I understand it's a deep and broad.
topic. Just while we're on it, like that's interesting. So just to clarify, you said that like in the course of a ultra marathon, say a hundred miles, you might take in 40 grams of carbs per hour.
Zach Bitter (33:34.65)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Tyson (33:36.046)
And on top of that, obviously hydration is another big topic. So making sure like you're hitting electrolytes and getting things like sodium and stuff into the system. How are you, how are you sort of scheduling or planning the hydration side in and around that carbs or is that carbs within like some mixed drink that contains sodium and stuff as well?
Zach Bitter (33:57.754)
Yeah, so I tend to separate the two for the most part. I don't necessarily separate the carbohydrates from the solution, but I separate, I look at them as two different, or two different like variables I need to be mindful of. So for hydration, I like to think of it as I can go out and like run a sweat test on myself and find out kind of how much I'm losing for an hour of running in a given temperature and kind of build a hydration strategy around that.
Electrolytes out of the equation is a little less clear. I mean the ranges that you see like at populace for those are pretty extreme. You'll get people as low as two to three hundred milligrams per liter of sweat all the way up to like two plus grams. So it's like, you know, a 10Xing from one person to the next. Now those are the extremes. The average person is going to lose around 950 milligrams of electrolytes for every liter of sweat. I've had my sweat test done so I know I lose 614 milligrams of electrolytes for every liter.
Let's say I go out and I'm doing a run in race day conditions and I find out that I'm going to lose like a liter per hour. Well, if I know I'm going to lose a liter per hour, that's going to be my target for replacement. And then roughly, I think you can go a little lower than that. They generally recommend, I think around 95 % of loss rate is what you should target for replacement. But I'm going to pin my electrolyte intake to that level of consumption. So for every hour that I consume a liter of water,
I'm going to make sure I have 614 milligrams of electrolytes so I keep that balance intact. Now, if it's a race where that ranges, there are some like that where maybe in the early stages, it's nice and cool in the morning, I'm only losing 500 milliliters. But then by the afternoon, I'm losing like a liter plus. So whether I'm doing the 500 mils or a liter plus, I'm going to kind of have that tied to the 614 milligrams per liter of fluid loss.
So for 500 milliliters, I might be a little lower at 306. And then if I'm doing like over a liter, then I'm just going to add a little more electrolyte to that. The fueling one, I arrived at 40 milligrams because I actually went in and got my fat oxidation tests done. And when I looked at the graph, it was like 40 grams would be the most I would need to defend liver muscle glycogen over the course of 100 miles, given the pace and intensity I would be targeting for that.
Zach Bitter (36:19.706)
my thought process there was I could probably get away with a little less than 40 grams, but if I'm not going to get a digestive issue and it's not that logistically taxing to get 40 grams in, I may as well just go with 40. And that's kind of where I've, where I found ends up working the best in practice as well for me. So that's usually the race day target. But I'm usually doing some version of like, right now I've been the, my nutrition sponsor, S -Fields has this new product called Zone 5 and it's just like this like pouch.
Tyson (36:40.814)
Yeah.
Zach Bitter (36:49.434)
or sachet that has like 300 calories in there of mostly carbohydrate. I think it's like right around 60 grams of carbohydrate. So like one of those is going to last me an hour and a half if I'm just doing that. So sometimes the duration of the hundred mile will determine whether I'm doing that plus something else. I usually like to have some variety in there. So usually I'll mix in maybe some solid food option that's more kind of crunchy, salty, savory, or
just having a little more calories in the drink just to kind of help with the hydration process and give me something different than just that one particular product.
Tyson (37:24.59)
Hmm.
Yeah. Are you playing with these a lot during training as well? Or do you feel like you've got a fairly good system in place? Because I mean, as I lead into Melbourne, one thing that I never used to think about was gels and hydration formulas and anything else. I pretty much just ate a good diet, make sure I was relatively energetic going to the start line. And for better or worse, it seemed to work relatively well for my career. But I mean, you can't really ignore the benefits or the requirements of having both your carbs and your...
your drinks sort of pretty tuned in when it comes to marathon race day. And I mean, this is a multifaceted conversation for me. I've sort of tried my best to limit it as much as possible. Like ideally I like to fuel as much as I can with just a good, healthy, sort of broadly nutritious kind of diet. And then top up particularly on my Sunday long runs at the moment. Like Sunday long run, I'm a little more free in the evening of Saturday.
throughout the Sunday, just making sure like I'll have magnesium formulas after the run. And I've got some sort of sodium carb mixes and gels and things that I'll use. But I try and limit it because obviously I look at the back at the ingredients and I'm not always 100 % sure what it is that I'm actually taking on board. Whereas like I can look at a date and I can go, okay, it's a date. But I don't know like over the long term how much I wanna take those in at a real high level.
And I mean, this is something that's purely subjective and something that's based purely on my own kind of approach. I'm open to changing it, but I was just curious to know for a bloke who's training for an ultra where these are probably, you know, even more significant than so many other distances. Is that something you take into account or is that sort of like a secondary issue in terms of just being able to stay fueled and hydrated for the training that you're doing? I think, sorry, that was a lot, but boiling it down, I think my question was,
Tyson (39:21.23)
how much you're using sort of the jowls and formulas just throughout training.
Zach Bitter (39:25.722)
Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't have to use it too much. I will. I'll use it from time to time just to kind of like play around with like how it's impacting different workouts and things like that. When I get in kind of like the ultra long run development phase where it starts to get more important to be like, all right, what is what I'm going to do on race day going to work? I mean, I definitely have like historic trends that I can rely on to some degree.
But if I switch to a different product, like with the S -Field Zone 5, that's a new product. So it's like, okay, I should probably stress test this on something outside of race day. But generally speaking, what I've done historically is I'll look at kind of the long run phase of my development through kind of two lenses. One would be like, all right, let's practice what I'm going to do on race day just to kind of get in the rehearsal of just doing it, make it feel a little more intuitive, gauge kind of how I feel with that. And then I'll also do some where I'm not taking in anything other than like,
electrolytes and water and that's kind of like what I like to call my fat adaptation field test where it's like hey if I can go out and do a long run with just water and electrolytes and feel like pretty good relative to when I'm fueling that's a really good sign that like my fat oxidation rates are gonna be plenty ample for what I'm trying to do. The other nice thing about kind of the way I have my structure set up is 40 grams per hour is such a low risk for a digestive issue even if I didn't do any
intra workout, intra training, strep fueling with that. I could probably just roll that right into a hundred mile and I wouldn't have to really risk too much with that. Whereas if I were trying to get up to those like hundred gram numbers, I would definitely have to train my gut to get ready for that. And I would have to be mindful of combinations of things too, because you're going to have like, you know, different pathways that are going to deal with fructose versus glucose and things like that. So I don't have to worry about that so much, which is one of the reasons why I kind of like that setup.
but I still do practice it because it's, there's also like, you know, you have a scenario where. Let's say I'm doing back to back long runs or even back to back to back long runs in some cases for like a hundred mile race. It's like, you just have such a large energy output at that. And I'm usually already at kind of race weight at that point. So in order for me to kind of find myself at the end of day one refueled and ready for day two, optimally.
Zach Bitter (41:51.962)
It's sometimes nice to kind of get a bit of a head start on that. And if I'm going out for like a four hour training session in the morning and having very little like calories coming in during that, I may find myself around lunchtime with this huge calorie debt and kind of nothing to it. So then I think it's just sometimes this can be just like a scenario. I think we see this in other studies too, where it's like, sometimes if like the type of protocol actually just increases the amount of like energy the athlete's taking in.
we see improved recovery and improved results and things like that. So I am mindful of just trying not to dig myself into these big calorie deficits too often when I'm doing training sessions like that. And that lends itself to just doing some race -fueling strategies and things like that as well.
Tyson (42:36.014)
Yeah, just to boil it down or dig a little bit deeper into that training structure. I know there's various phases throughout your year where, as you've already said, the structure of the training is going to vary, particularly with the main focus point. But if you took us to a peak mileage week of you training for, I'm sorry, I can't remember how long ago you said your 100 miler was your most recent one.
Zach Bitter (42:58.425)
Yeah, that was like two and a half weeks ago is when I finished.
Tyson (43:01.806)
Yeah, sure. So sort of like the, the, the phase of peak mileage leading into something like that. I'm really interested to know how you structure it. Cause one of the athletes that I'm currently coaching at the moment has ventured out into some ultras of his own. He's recently done a hundred K mountain run here. And one thing that we've been toying with a little bit is, is just adding like that Saturday, Sunday long run block. And the other thing that we're toying with is, is naturally looking at the terrain that he's going to be running over and focusing on.
All right, are we more worried about time on feet? Are we more worried about elevation? We more worried about distance and then trying to tick both of those boxes off. And I mean, it's, it's been a little bit of a work in progress and a little bit back and forth. But one thing that he finds very beneficial is, you know, as a core part of that training week, that Saturday, Sunday for, you know, if not every week, maybe alternate weeks of backing up that long run in some form, you know, regardless of what the actual focus point of that run is.
Zach Bitter (43:54.746)
Mm -hmm.
Tyson (43:57.806)
And then he'll have like a lighter intensity kind of session earlier in that week. And the other stuff is, is more just that aerobic threshold kind of stuff that zone to kind of easy running, which makes up the rest of the week. Like what does your week look like in preparation for an event like your most recent hundred mile.
Zach Bitter (44:17.882)
Yeah, so for this one I had like I went I think my longest run was maybe three and a half, maybe a little past three and a half hours. I tend to go a little bit shorter on my ultra long runs when I'm doing a flat controlled hundred mile because race pace is just going to be like, you know, running the entire time. Whereas if I were to do, say, like a mountain ultra marathon or one where I'm going to be doing like some percentage of hiking through it.
I'm going to branch that out a fair bit further because once I get to the ultra long run phase of training, I'm going to be replicating race pacing and strategy. So like you can just tolerate more volume with lower impact. I think when you're doing like these like steeper climbs and descents and things like that. So that just allows it for it to be a little bit longer on some of those. So some of those are reaching like, you know, a little bit, a little bit longer. But like.
The way I usually structure it is I'll start out with like for this particular one I did, I was doing three day kind of back to back to backs where my first round was like two and a half hours, two and a half and those two and a half hours. So I was getting seven and a half hours of total volume on that three day block. Then I did just under three hours on three subsequent days. So I got like, I think it was like maybe eight and a half to eight hours and 40 minutes of total volume for that one.
And then my last week I did two days, but I extended it. So I basically consolidated into two days. I think I had like, I think that was maybe seven hours or something like that for, for, for that one. I might've had one four hour run actually. I'd have to go back and look for sure, but it was like that, that last week I did a little less volume the week prior, but I consolidated all into two days. So the runs themselves were longer in duration.
and that's kind of how I like to do it. I like to think like, I think one of the bigger mistakes ultra runners make is they go out for these like ultra long runs, but they're running substantially faster than the pace they're targeting on race day. So what that means is they're, they're probably like losing quality near the end of those. And then they would probably be better off like increasing the quality of their running portion of that run and then working on a skillset that they're actually going to use on race day, which is walking or hiking. So.
Tyson (46:19.694)
Mm.
Zach Bitter (46:37.306)
I like to look at it through that lens is like, if you can kind of ballpark a figure of like how, what's the average pace you're looking to target for this event. And then what does that mean with a course profile in terms of like frequency of hiking and start building the long runs out to mimic that as much as possible. And then I think then you don't have a situation where someone is sort of like just having this depreciation of quality and also losing out on kind of the value. Cause there's also like the stealing from tomorrow type of mindset where
Like you start getting these long runs that go beyond like three, three and a half hours and you start to seeing this like kind of plateauing of some of like the major adaptations that would take place from running. So you're sort of doing a lot of hard work for very little return versus like stopping there, recovering quicker and getting back up back out sooner and acquiring more volume over the length of the plan versus for any one setting. Ultra runners tend to kind of hyper focus, I think, on like, what's the key workout or what's the I got to go out and do that like.
that 50K route or whatever it happens to be. And it's like, you know, that could be helpful. It's definitely going to be longer and it's going to allow you to kind of practice a little bit more closely what you'll be actually doing on race day and experience a few more kind of the ebbs and flows of the day, experience a little bit more of like weather change throughout the course of the day, seeing if your gear is actually up for the task or is it going to create an issue that you need to solve that'd be good to figure out in training before you're out there on the course. Some important stuff, but I like to think of it as like.
Be sparing enough with those that you're not sacrificing total volume at goal intensities that you're targeting. And if you need to distribute it more lightly in order to get more volume over the course of the plan, that's going to win out over having these like kind of hero long runs that are sandwiched between like these really long kind of rest recovery phases, because it just took so much out of you to do that one session.
Tyson (48:25.71)
Yeah, it's amazing how much the, the emotional or like that temptation emotionally to just tap into that long run just gets the better of so many athletes. Cause what you say makes so much sense. Like the idea of perhaps just leaving a little in the reserve for tomorrow's session that you've got to go out and do is, is a great idea and not sacrificing the quality. But when you're out there, especially with the mindset of, okay, I need to get ready for this ultra marathon or whatever it is that you're training for. There's some little nasty voice in.
all of our heads that says, come on, just, just go, like, just push it. Let's just say, prove to yourself that you're in the form that you think you're in. And it's a, I mean, you spoke earlier about pulling the different levers in regards to getting ready for the event. It's such a, it's such a great analogy. Like the idea of, you know, pulling the lever of just intensifying that run seems very tempting, but like the sacrifice for that is very good chance of injury or performance plateau. I don't know how much of that came into your own.
injury that you said you'd been navigating? Like, do you know what was the cause of the injuries that you'd been dealing with most recently?
Zach Bitter (49:30.874)
Yeah, so you know, I actually it started, what was it? Is it 2021? I actually had a pretty bad ankle injury where I tore, I partially tore ligaments on both sides of my right ankle. And then also had some like Achilles tendonitis in there that I wasn't aware of. But when I got the MRI, they were like, yeah, there's like some, there's some stuff in there. So that one took me, you know, the funny thing about that was I took, I think I took four weeks completely off after that.
and it kind of gradually reintroduced running. And I had a really clean build up after that. I didn't have any issues with it. I did a race. And then the next training block after that started acting up on me again. So I'm not exactly sure why that happened the way it did, but it ended up, I ended up re -engineering it later that next year. So I had to take another four weeks off after that. And then I went like really gradual, really focused in on kind of like.
more strength and mobility with it than I did the first time around and sort of try to take a slightly different approach to kind of being a little more conservative around it. And then the ankle had more or less resolved itself, but then I ended up getting a sacral stress fracture last summer. Well, it was probably about, let me think, it's probably about 13, 14 months ago at this point.
And luckily I caught it really early. Like I knew what it was. and I went and I just got an MRI right away. And usually with like stress fractures here in the States anyway, it's like, they don't want to do an MRI. So they first like they explore all the options. And by the time you end up getting an MRI and figuring out what happened, you might be three, four weeks down the road, probably at least two. But I just like had a good hunch that it was a sacral stress fracture. So I just went out of pocket and got the MRI like the day after or two days after.
had the results in a few days, they're like, yeah, we see some like, some stress reaction edema in there, and then there is a slight stress fracture on that sacral ala. So then it's just like, okay, I caught it really early, so I'm just looking at like a four to six week bone remodeling timeline if I can stay off it. So after that, I was like, I was actually kind of curious about what the result for that was, because I've had no bone issues my entire life, no broken bones, no fractures, other than a sacral stress fracture, which I've had twice.
Zach Bitter (51:53.786)
So I'm like, there's something specific about me or something about this that is that that area is just taking on additional load or stress that I that I need to kind of get get underneath. So I did like some bone scans and blood work and things like that just to make sure that I wasn't like, you know, running into issues on that front. And I like my score. I think I was in the top like four percent or three or four percent on bone density. So I was like, this isn't like a nutritional thing where I need to like.
change some of the inputs there to make sure like bone health is there. And I ended up getting, I ended up hiring like a movement specialist to help me kind of like work on just form and just some imbalances. And we unearthed a bunch of stuff that was kind of related to like ankle, which may have been, you know, part of, it may have just been some residual like mobility issues from that prior ankle injury. But I also had some like hip.
issues and some shoulder issues that he wanted me to kind of focus on to kind of just get a little bit more, get my body working with itself a little bit better. So I went through like a full, like I still do like a full mobility routine now that is very specific to kind of like my body and its movement patterns and things like that. And that knock on wood has been the end of it. So now I've been training consistently for a bit over a year and haven't had any like inklings of injury or anything like that.
Tyson (53:00.814)
Right.
Zach Bitter (53:16.186)
this, actually this last year was the first, first season in a while where I've able to follow kind of, I like training races. Training races can be a little bit of a polarizing topic because it's easy to kind of like overextend there or do I was talking about for like steal from tomorrow by doing too many of them or doing them and then losing out on future training by that, that bigger training load. The way I typically view it is like a time, a proper timeline fixes all of that. So if, if you're worried about, training races,
interfering with your race development, just start sooner. And then you can get to where you want to be so that the opportunity cost of a training race isn't such that you're stealing from work that needs to be done. And this was the last, the most recent training build that I kind of had the timeline, the confidence and the durability to feel like I could do that. So I was able to do, I think I did four ultra marathons, like shorter ultra marathons in the lead up to the hundred miler, as kind of like really good like race day practice.
Tyson (53:57.454)
Mm.
Zach Bitter (54:15.034)
long run development type stuff. And I like having that cause it's just fun to go to the events too. So, unfortunate here in Texas, we have two really good, ultra marathon race organization. So there's a lot of them just with like a couple hours or a few hours away from where we're living.
Tyson (54:22.894)
sure.
Tyson (54:31.726)
Awesome man. Hey, who was the movement specialist that you got help from?
Zach Bitter (54:37.338)
His name is Vinny. So if you go on Instagram, it's just a pain at pain Academy. But yeah, his name is Vinny. He's great. He actually I've had him on my podcast a few times and he he actually was a former division one competitive swimmer and he broke or he got into surfing after he kind of finished his collegiate career and then ended up breaking his back on a rock while surfing and sort of just kind of like.
rebuilt himself more or less with all that stuff after that. It was just an interesting connection that I had already had and was thankful that he was willing to work with me. He also happened to be preparing for an ultra marathon at the time, so we were able to help each other out a little bit.
Tyson (55:29.23)
What's the running scene like in Austin? As I said, I know Austin for now comedy and music, but I haven't heard too much about the world of running in Austin, Texas.
Zach Bitter (55:38.938)
Yeah, it's big. Health and fitness in general in Austin is big. You can find people doing all sorts of different fitness related stuff, but running is a big part of that. So yeah, we have this route that goes around. It looks almost like a river, but it's a lake. It's called Town Lake. And it's got this nice little 10 mile route loop around it that a lot of people will come and run at. And there's like, I don't even know how many running groups there are in Austin. There's a ton of them. So.
Yeah, it's really popular. And actually the running event, which is like the premier like trade show for running brands where everyone will kind of come and showcase their next line of products that are coming out the next year is based out of Austin. So we see like the running industry in the United States all kind of like pour into Austin in December every year with that.
Tyson (56:30.414)
Awesome man, as I said, I'm doing my best to convince my wife to let us move to Austin for six months or so to get into the world of comedy. But if we do, I'll shoot your message in and you can teach me how to run a whole course. But man, I won't talk to you. I'm sure you got plenty to, what are you dealing with evening right now, your time?
Zach Bitter (56:40.09)
Yeah.
Zach Bitter (56:48.41)
Yeah, it's about 7 PM. Yeah, so I guess it's your morning. It's tomorrow for you, I think, right?
Tyson (56:51.374)
Yeah. Aw, man.
It's tomorrow for us. Yeah. I'm about to, I'm about to head out for my, my mid long run. So my, my thing was I'll catch up with you, get inspired, go and do my own running and then get on with the rest of the day. But man, I'll let you go and enjoy the evening, but, but really appreciate you making the time to come on. I'm so glad we got a chance to catch up again.
Zach Bitter (57:05.21)
Awesome.
Zach Bitter (57:11.29)
Yeah, absolutely. It was a blast. It was fun to chat, Tyson.
Tyson (57:14.606)
Awesome, man. Thanks again. We'll see you later.
Zach Bitter (57:17.082)
Take care.
Tyson (57:19.318)
I'll cut that off right there. Dude, you're alleged. That was such a great chat.