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A podcast from Bright Wall/Dark Room, engaging with the business of being alive, one movie at a time. Hosted by Chad Perman & Elizabeth Cantwell.
Chad Perman (00:22)
Hello and welcome to the Bright Wall/Dark Room podcast. I'm Chad Perman.
Elizabeth Cantwell (00:27)
And I'm Elizabeth Cantwell.
Chad Perman (00:29)
And Elizabeth, how are you doing today?
Elizabeth Cantwell (00:32)
I'm doing
good. How are you, Chad?
Chad Perman (00:34)
I'm doing pretty good. the weather has changed recently in Seattle, so the the rain is here for a little bit, but then be sunny after that, but had to had to wear the hoodie for today.
Elizabeth Cantwell (00:45)
I am hoping, my fingers are crossed, that we actually get rain tomorrow is supposed to maybe happen in LA, which we haven't had
Chad Perman (00:50)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (00:53)
real rain since December, I think. So I know I'm like I keep
Chad Perman (00:56)
you should have grabbed some when you're up here.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:00)
checking the weather, hoping that it stays. I believe that's correct. I mean, maybe there was
Chad Perman (01:03)
Did you say since December? Wow.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:08)
a day in January. No, it's really dry out here. It's really bad. So we need some rain.
Chad Perman (01:12)
god.
well it is good to see you again and we're here to discuss a movie that is interesting and relevant to the upcoming issue of midlife crisis and that
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:26)
Yep.
Chad Perman (01:26)
is Thomas Vinterberg's Another Round. and to do that we have a returning guest. She hasn't been on the show in a few years, but we loved having her on in twenty twenty three to discuss Wings of Desire.
she is recording internationally from France. one of the people who wrote for the first few issues of Bright Wall/Dark Room. So she goes way back. and it is Karina Wolf. Karina, welcome to the show.
Karina (01:52)
hey, it's so good to be back. I'm so excited to talk to you.
Chad Perman (01:55)
how's France?
Karina (01:57)
France is baking today. but luckily we're we're nearly out of this heat wave. and you know it's delightful. Like I I can't I have no complaints.
Elizabeth Cantwell (02:09)
I am really
glad I said this earlier before we started recording, but I'm really glad we have a European
like I don't know if it's a European influence, that's not the right word, but a European presence. A European presence on the pod
Chad Perman (02:21)
presence, yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (02:23)
for this film.
Karina (02:24)
I don't know if I can represent Europe, but I can but I
but I definitely feel steeped in Europe right now. So yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (02:32)
There you go.
Chad Perman (02:32)
Yes. Yeah, and it feels like from talking to you over the years,
you spend decent amount time in various parts of Europe or is that you're not unfamiliar with it.
Karina (02:40)
think that's true. I mean,
I feel like the the Europe of this movie, Scandinavia, it's co is is it Copenhagen?
Chad Perman (02:47)
Yeah.
Karina (02:49)
so I I have been there but one time. So I don't think I have a huge yeah.
Chad Perman (02:52)
okay. Well it's one more than me.
Karina (02:56)
But it's but it is interesting, you know, in terms of thinking about this movie another round and what it
Chad Perman (03:03)
Yeah.
Karina (03:03)
what it what it intends to be about, you know, if it's
Chad Perman (03:07)
Yeah.
Karina (03:07)
try aiming aiming has big aims, which maybe it does.
Chad Perman (03:12)
Yeah. And we'll get into all of I don't know where'd you guys feel like starting today because there's a lot to talk about.
Elizabeth Cantwell (03:18)
There's so much. I mean, I don't Chad, I know you and I had a similar experience where both of us had seen this film years ago, but hadn't
Chad Perman (03:27)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (03:27)
seen it in a while and rewatched it just last night and I think
Chad Perman (03:31)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (03:31)
both of us finished it this morning. Karina, have you is this your multiple watch of the
Chad Perman (03:37)
Ha ha.
Elizabeth Cantwell (03:38)
of the movie or?
Karina (03:38)
It is my
yes. and it's and I similarly I had memories of the film. And it's funny, I I looked at Chad's essay about the film and which made me understand where where the film's release stood in time, which was the pandemic year.
Chad Perman (03:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Karina (04:01)
and so I think it it's interesting to me to watch the movie
remember what I took away from the movie, which was a very particular feeling. So I I don't think I remembered all the complexity. And and I have to say for a movie that's kind of billed as a comedy, it is the most I think so it's the most Scandinavian of comedies, right? Like it's like it's in the
Chad Perman (04:20)
is it? Yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (04:25)
Ha ha
Karina (04:26)
Ingmar Bergman school of comedy. and so it is interesting to encounter like
To have my memories encounter the film again, you know, and to think about why it made an impact at that time and what it might mean to people watching it for the first time or rewatching it now. Cause I think it
Elizabeth Cantwell (04:47)
Mm-hmm.
Karina (04:48)
I think it's really for me, it kind of has changed in those intervening years, you know, upon rewatching it. Yeah.
Chad Perman (04:54)
So much, yeah. That was my big takeaway
too, was Elizabeth and I were talking off camera about how much I'd forgotten. I mean, I I probably watch I have kind of a weirdly obsessive thing when I write about something where I watch it a bunch
of times. So I had seen that three or four times back in twenty one and twenty-two, and then haven't seen it since and then remember what I wrote about it. So I was like, yeah, it's the movie where, you know, he dances at the end and and they try this experiment.
But yeah, I had just forgotten massive amounts of it. So it was really interesting to watch it again. And also to watch it kind of outside of the context of when it was released. I feel like I'm not the only one, but I feel like there's just so much from those first couple of years of the pandemic that I memory hold.
And even going back is just like I can't even really totally connect to what I was feeling back then when I was watching it 'cause it was such a unique, singular, weird time psychologically for everybody. So But I don't know, what about you, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth Cantwell (05:44)
Yeah, no, very similar. I hadn't remembered like large swaths of smaller plot details that I really appreciated the rewatch. I think when I, you know, I have a thing where I don't always love rewatching movies. There's some movies that
Chad Perman (06:00)
Hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (06:01)
I'm like I'm a huge rewatcher, but it kind
Chad Perman (06:03)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (06:04)
of feels like movies fall into two categories for me. It's either like a movie that I know I'm gonna rewatch a lot or a movie that I'm like, I've seen that movie, I'm good, thank you, check mark.
And I kind of felt that way about this film before re-watching it, where I was like, do I really have
Chad Perman (06:17)
Okay.
Elizabeth Cantwell (06:18)
to rewatch? You know, I kind of I remember the basics. And then as I was re-watching it, I was like, I'm really glad that I'm watching it again. it most recently came up for me last year. I taught
Chad Perman (06:32)
Hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (06:33)
a film class at at the high school I teach at, and I had a Danish student in the film class, and this was like his
favorite film. And so every time I was asking people, well, you know, what do you think we should watch next week? Or, you know, I try to get student input. He'd be like, I think we should watch another round. And I shut him down every time. I was like, no, no, no, we're not watching another round. I just I also felt like as a teacher, I didn't know that it was the most appropriate thing to show a class of students a movie about teachers drinking constantly while they're teaching. Like I felt like that might
Chad Perman (07:07)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (07:08)
be weird.
But the then watching it last night I was like, maybe I should have maybe I should have let my class watch this last year because there's so much in it. There is, yeah. About the students, yeah.
Chad Perman (07:21)
there's so much high school stuff in it too that they would relate to. Yeah.
And the parents and yeah.
Karina (07:27)
I feel like
the movie the movie's kind of bookended by the high school students, right? Which feels like if you're going to have some takeaway from the movie, it has something to do with where Thomas Vinterberg, the director, is kind of putting his principal characters in relation to these kind of idealized high school students who are kind of
involved in the rituals.
the Danish rituals of adulthood, like becoming adults and also becoming
Chad Perman (07:59)
Yeah.
Karina (08:00)
drinkers at the same time. Like it's, you know, and it, and it's sort of almost mythologized
and you see it's like the behavior that's a component of the drinking, it's it's is so idealized, you know, it's sort of like the joy
And rebellion of youth. You know, and it sort of continues it's so it starts outside
Chad Perman (08:21)
Mm-hmm.
Karina (08:24)
and then it goes into, I don't know, I think the subway, and there's, you know, there's a sort of ticket
Chad Perman (08:29)
Yeah.
Karina (08:30)
taker, and they handcuff him to the like, you know, to like something in the train. And and it's all like this massive joke that becomes sort of a reference for how the main characters behave, you know, and I I just thought it was like an interesting.
Cause the weirdest thing, thinking about the movie and then rewatching the movie, I remember coming away from the movie thinking that is such a strange, it's such a strange approach to the material because the tone is so strange. Like basically it's these four men who are friends who are high school teachers, and they go out one night to celebrate.
one of their 40th birthdays at a kind of fancy restaurant. And the main character played by Mads Mickelson is trying to be this kind of responsible guy. And, you know, because he's driving, he's not gonna drink. And his friends persuade him to drink. And then he has this kind of emotional outburst and openness because he's he's sort of having he's kind of stumbling on month multiple fronts in his life.
you know, and that exactly, yes.
Chad Perman (09:39)
his wife had just told him that he's boring, so that that didn't help.
Karina (09:44)
It's so he's he's confronted with the sort of his wife has found that he is not as intriguing as he was as a youth, you know, which is definitely a a moment for a midlife crisis if the you're the if the potentiality and achievement of youth is not met.
in midlife, right? So and then and he's and he's doing really poorly as a professor or teacher in his classes. And so in in conversation with his friends, they come up with this strange idea of a quasi. It is a real
Chad Perman (10:27)
It is a it is a real theory. I looked it up. I mean it was a real guy who suggested it.
Karina (10:32)
guy. Yes,
Okay, his name is Find Skardarund, a Norwegian former psychiatrist who anecdotally was struck off the medical register by the Norwegian
Chad Perman (10:41)
Okay.
Karina (10:42)
Board of Health Supervision
Elizabeth Cantwell (10:42)
Ha ha.
Karina (10:43)
to due to a widespread pattern of professional misconduct. As such, he is no longer a medical doctor
or psychiatrist. But back
Elizabeth Cantwell (10:51)
Sure.
Karina (10:52)
at the time of
At the time of another round, yes.
Chad Perman (10:56)
that's happened since then?
okay.
Elizabeth Cantwell (10:59)
Interesting.
Karina (11:01)
so he promoted a theory which I think preexisted him that human beings are operating at a blood alcohol content le a deficiency of blood alcohol. And so so yes,
Chad Perman (11:12)
Yes, deficiency. Point zero five deficiency.
Karina (11:17)
so these group of men decide that they're going to embark on this experiment of raising their blood alcohol level profess like in a professional
and scientific way to see if their lives qualitatively improve, you know, by making up that lack. And, you know, hijinks and Sue.
Chad Perman (11:37)
But like
staying at that point, like throughout the day.
Karina (11:41)
Yes.
Chad Perman (11:41)
Yeah, not just like let's try it tonight. Like let's always be at that optimum level.
Karina (11:47)
Right.
Elizabeth Cantwell (11:48)
But yeah,
to go back to what you were saying to kick off that that lovely plot summary, Karina, it is, I do remember also feeling the first time I watched it, feeling uncomfortable with the way it sort of refuses to resolve or take a stance on the main plot engine of the movie. and I found that really
sort of troubling the first time I watched it. I think this time
Chad Perman (12:16)
Ha ha ha.
Elizabeth Cantwell (12:17)
I was better able to sit with it and understand like, okay, this movie is not trying to be a morality piece. It's not trying to take a stance on alcohol consumption as much as it seems like you might want to draw connections. It's about something deeper. And it's using this
sort of metaphorical almost issue of consuming alcohol to say something about
What it means to be stuck in your life.
Karina (12:46)
Yeah, no, I I mean it feels like it's it's a crutch. it's it's an obstacle. I mean I mean the consumption of alcohol, but I you know, I feel like the characters are also for the young the the the principal characters, but also w at least one of the students are held back by emotional barriers that sometimes
Alcohol allows them to kind of step through the things that are holding them back. you know, so it's so it there is an interesting lack of judgment. And I, you know, and I think that I mean, we can perhaps feel sure that this is like such an experienced filmmaker that I think the choice not to
make a strong statement about the consumption or to make kind of complicated, complicating I gestures,
is is a deliberate one. You know, and to me I think I I I feel like it's worth talking about Thomas Spencerberg like in a in a brief way. Like
Chad Perman (13:57)
Yeah.
Karina (13:58)
he's, you know, he was one of the kind of founding dogma ninety five directors.
Which, you know, really was a sort of Scandinavian film movement in the 90s that really had to do with not using artifice in the creation
Chad Perman (14:19)
Yes.
Karina (14:20)
of narrative. and so I think it's interesting while this movie kind of violates a lot of those rules because it really Dog N 95 to me, I think had a lot of ideas of like,
you know, not using editing and unity of place and no lighting and all you know, very kind of raw things so that you're not manipulating the audience. But I think his the way he adheres to Dogma 95 is kind of putting his characters in a situation that he refuses to judge and you know, or he refuses to kind of steer the audience in their judgment of what the characters are doing.
But I think it's interesting to look at this movie. So I was just looking back through his filmography and I saw that one of his early student films was
Called Last Round. And the English title of this film is Another Round. Yeah.
Chad Perman (15:15)
interesting. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (15:16)
Hm, another round.
Karina (15:19)
And I thought, this in a way is, I mean, although it's not the same plot, it does have some, I think it has some link to what he's doing in this, in this film. it's like the description of his short.
from his college short is a man's determined to have a good time with his friends after stealing plenty of money from his boss. This will be the last time he'll ever have with him since he's about to leave the country to never return, but he's having second thoughts. So and I think this movie also feels like four men who are
They sort of form a kind of men's group with each other to me, because it feels like they are at a moment where they're wondering like what k can possibly evolve for for them where they're at right now. You know, like it feels like a last round because because they're all sort of reaching some stasis that feels not completely satisfactory, right? So
I don't know, it to me it feels like maybe I'm reaching, but that there is some link between Venturberg's like beginnings and then the middle of his career here.
Chad Perman (16:40)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (16:41)
Well, yeah, and I do love that this is again, it's not a last round, right? That they are I think to me that's where this feels particularly European too. If you made this movie in America, I think the arc would be, they're drinking, they're keeping their blood alcohol up during the day. It's fun, yay. no, it's not fun. no, we're falling off.
Karina (17:07)
no, I mean, I I was just gonna say they d there is like the cautionary tale, right? So there are the four friends and there's they're all teaching at the same high school and there's the gym teacher who, you know, I mean, it actually feels quite alarming. I mean, it's a little alarming with all of the teachers inebriated during the day.
Elizabeth Cantwell (17:25)
Yeah, I would say so.
Karina (17:28)
But the gym teacher is the one who's working with the littlest children, so it feels particularly inappropriate and weird that he's a bit drunk. and and he becomes the cautionary tale. I won't spoil it for people, but you think at this point at this point
Elizabeth Cantwell (17:43)
I feel like we can spoil it.
Karina (17:47)
in its release we could spoil it?
Elizabeth Cantwell (17:47)
I think if you're listening to the
podcast, go watch the movie if you haven't seen it. Yeah.
Karina (17:53)
Okay, you've had your warning.
Chad Perman (17:53)
Yes.
Karina (17:55)
Thing things don't go well for him. He they stop drinking, his
other friends decide maybe they should end the experiment, stop drinking, but he can't quite do it. And things take a turn, and he sets sail with his elderly dog with a gimpy leg, and they
Chad Perman (18:15)
Yeah.
Karina (18:15)
don't return.
Elizabeth Cantwell (18:17)
But even
and but even so yeah, he has a tragic ending, but even that is not as simple as you'd want it to be because he still has inspired these children. There's that
Karina (18:30)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (18:30)
one kid Specs, my god, Specs really got me. Really got me.
Chad Perman (18:32)
Specs, yeah. All of us classes people can relate.
Elizabeth Cantwell (18:37)
But like it's clear
Karina (18:37)
He was the cutest.
Elizabeth Cantwell (18:38)
that Specs has nothing but love for this man and that
Tommy, the man that we're talking about, that Tommy has been able to reach him in a way no one else did, been able to give him courage, the ability to score a goal, the ability to be celebrated. And that wouldn't have happened had he not been a a complete alcoholic. So I don't know. I don't know. It's it's it isn't it's so uneasy with what it wants to
B, which is so true to life.
I love the moment where
he learns about Tommy's death. I think if we're talking
about Vinterberg as a director, it's so well done. like I said, I finished watching it this morning and my nine-year-old was awake eating breakfast and they were like, Can I see? Can I watch? And I said, Sure. it's in Danish.
Chad Perman (19:28)
No.
Elizabeth Cantwell (19:32)
So I they were watching with me, but it's so
Perfectly done where there's this celebration and you just see the silent conversation. You don't hear anything, you just see him sort of take it in. And Mickelson is
I we we should talk about how incredible he is
in this film, but the way that you he uses his face in that moment to just show exactly what he's heard tells us everything
Chad Perman (19:58)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (19:59)
without needing to hear some kind of explanation of what happened.
Chad Perman (20:04)
Yeah, his face does
a lot of work in this movie.
Karina (20:07)
It's so interesting because he's so Mads Mickelson. I feel like in English language movies, he's like a performance artist. And in this movie, he gets to be an actor, you know, like so
Elizabeth Cantwell (20:18)
Mm.
Chad Perman (20:18)
Mm-hmm.
Karina (20:20)
you know, so it's it's so amazing because I think he's he has such a you know, an extraordinary face that it's
Chad Perman (20:30)
Truly.
Karina (20:31)
it's hard to use him naturalistically,
like he's he's beyond an average man. He is beneath an average man in a certain way. He was, you know, and I I guess this is where the question of like a mid depiction of midlife comes in, you know, where it's like a man who at the beginning is set up for being having been known for his brilliance and also
having had these origins as like a student of dance, right? But also he was gonna go to graduate school and he was a brilliant thinker and now he can barely get through one of his history lessons without saying like gross factual errors, you know, like s and having and seeing this extraordinary like yes, boring yeah, boring and average, like
Chad Perman (21:13)
being really boring. I mean as a teacher, yeah. Yeah.
Karina (21:19)
in a yeah it's just an amazing performance from someone who
I feel like more, you know, he's the bitch and the bitch better have my money video. So
Chad Perman (21:30)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (21:31)
H
Karina (21:33)
somebody who's like known for his villainy and glamour,
you know. Yeah. And Lucifer. Yeah. So
Chad Perman (21:36)
and Hannibal. I he was Hannibal, right? In the series. Yeah. Yeah.
Karina (21:42)
just so many twisted, dark things. So seeing this man who's kind of humbly sort of losing his
station in life is is sort of extraordinary.
Chad Perman (21:58)
yeah, I can't really imagine another actor that could do it. And also I think that he still looks like a really I mean he still looks like Mads Mickelson because he is. so to see the like the the life and spirit drained out of someone that looks like they would
They have all the tools at their disposal to be functioning very well in life. yeah, it's just it's just a reminder that that everyone goes through a lot of shit. And hits that point in their life, some kind of crossroads. We're like, this is not where I was supposed. I think he says that in that. like, I I don't know how I ended up like this. Which is just, I think, kind of the main theme of a lot of
What sets off a lot of midlife crises is like, wait, this is what my life is. I don't want it to be like this. And I also don't know what to do about that.
Elizabeth Cantwell (22:38)
I actually think all I mean all four actors are amazing. And I think
Chad Perman (22:44)
Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (22:44)
that the other three in that foursome strike me because they feel like they're not acting, which maybe goes back to
the dogma ninety-five. Like they just feel like those are those people.
Chad Perman (22:57)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (22:57)
and as a teacher, I feel like I've had colleagues that are exactly
Chad Perman (23:00)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (23:01)
those people, you know, like I can see passing them in the hallway.
and I think what's what's so remarkable about Mickelson's performance then is that he manages to to play two things at once. He manages to clearly be an elevated character who is acting. Like he's acting in that film. The other three kind of feel like they're just being themselves, which is unfair to that's also acting. I know that they are acting. It's just
Chad Perman (23:24)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (23:28)
it's so realistic. His performance is not.
all the way realistic. It is elevated, but it still grounds itself in like the complexity of human nature enough that you are in it.
Karina (23:41)
I
think I think there there are ways
where I'm like, these guys are kind of knuckleheads. Like it's like I
Elizabeth Cantwell (23:48)
Yeah.
Karina (23:49)
yeah, I I wasn't convinced that the students were gonna get good grades even when he was like turning it on and focused.
Elizabeth Cantwell (23:56)
yeah, and to bring it back to the idea that this is a group of men, I think also there is like a not a statement, but there is something going on here with the
fact that men do find it much harder to have close friendships, to be open with each other,
Chad Perman (24:11)
Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (24:12)
to have emotional connection. and that alcohol is a way for them of also becoming closer with each other, not just having these other experiences in life that
feel more free, but actually creating closer connections to each other as friends.
Chad Perman (24:29)
Yeah.
Well that first night after
Karina (24:31)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (24:31)
the experiment, they're like I don't know what they're doing in the woods, whatever, but they're like rolling around and wrestling in the middle of the night and like you just imagine they're probably not gonna do probably hadn't done that before as as sober individuals. but yeah, there's a lot of bonding to it.
Karina (24:45)
Yeah, I felt like the their night, their their sort of first overnight felt really reminiscent of the kids that we see at the beginning. And so,
Chad Perman (24:55)
Mm.
Karina (24:55)
you know, and I thought like, it's it's interesting because when you see kids doing that for the first time, it feels really rebellious, like you're kind of surfing a first wave of adventure and possibility, you know, and
So it's almost like these men have kind of re reclaimed that or attained that again. You know, like it was it it just felt interesting because they felt like they were being depicted. You could see their younger selves like sort of coming through in that moment, you know. And so I do feel like yeah, you see all all sides of it as as they
go along because it's you see the boyishness in them. You see, even though you may not see great pedagogy, you do see a lot of emotional connection,
you know, and accountability
Chad Perman (25:51)
Yeah.
Karina (25:52)
with the students. So that's which is, you know, kind of as important in a in a different way, you know, like to just make those connections with people, nace, you know, fledgling people.
I th I mean I think it's really interesting that the crisis because I was I was thinking about midlife crises in movies for men versus for women. And I and I thought about it and I I felt like in a lot of the movies that I could think of, the crisis was more about sort of sexual viability or
Chad Perman (26:29)
Mm.
Karina (26:30)
about unresolved conflicts, you know, like so
And so I I thought it was really interesting that this movie was kind of daring enough to be about smaller things that were actually bigger things, you know, like so because I I just started making a list for myself. I was like, what is what is a movie that's about midlife? I was like, you could say like eight and a half is a movie about a midlife crisis. You wow. Yeah. You know.
Chad Perman (26:53)
Yeah, I was almost gonna write on that one. Yeah. I I didn't. I was like,
no, there's been enough raining on that. But yeah, that was that was
Elizabeth Cantwell (27:00)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Perman (27:00)
one I just watched last month on vacation.
Karina (27:03)
I mean, and such a great one, you know, like there's
Chad Perman (27:06)
Yeah.
Karina (27:06)
so much, so much to say, but also maybe the experience of watching it is more powerful than
Chad Perman (27:12)
Yeah.
Karina (27:13)
ever reading about it. You know, I don't know, but you know,
Chad Perman (27:14)
I think so.
Karina (27:15)
I just thought like American Beauty or The Seven Year Itch, like
Chad Perman (27:19)
Yeah.
Karina (27:19)
there are so many that in some way have to do with the sexual identity, which I didn't really feel like was the case with these four men. You know, with it felt like with these men it's about,
sort of not living up to their potential and not being sufficient even for the present, never mind, whatever their past potential was, you know, and and so I, you know, I just thought it was like an interesting strength of the movie that it it kind of dignifies that experience that's probably more closely aligned, more common.
for for a lot of people. you know, and then I I started thinking about, okay, like what what's a midlife crisis movie for women, conversely, right? And I was like, okay, what I guess there's an unmarried woman. or
Chad Perman (28:12)
yeah. I had forgotten before.
Karina (28:14)
and then I was thinking about nine to five, kind of a midlife crisis
Chad Perman (28:17)
Yeah.
Karina (28:18)
movie, R. I P Dolly Parton, or terms of endearment. Like I, you know, I
I'm thinking of older movies, and I'm just wondering
why that is like, and maybe it's just my lack of imagination. So I don't know if you guys have any thoughts about what are midlife crisis movies for women. I guess baby girl, baby girl? Was that baby doll? The Nicole Kidman movie? Is that a midlife crisis?
Chad Perman (28:40)
The Nicole Kidman one? Well Traves is gonna kill
us if we get this wrong. I think it's baby girl.
Karina (28:48)
Girl.
Chad Perman (28:49)
I'll edit out the part where we're looking it up.
Karina (28:51)
Okay.
Chad Perman (28:54)
Okay.
Elizabeth Cantwell (28:52)
Yeah, it's baby girl. Yes.
Chad Perman (28:54)
but and I this I take no credit for this because it was it's an essay that someone
Karina (29:00)
Okay.
Chad Perman (29:00)
was writing for for the upcoming issue. But
Karina (29:03)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Perman (29:04)
she was looking at Diane Lane specifically and through
Karina (29:07)
okay.
Chad Perman (29:08)
both Unfaithful and Under the Tuscan Sun. with the caveat that I think her character's like 38 or 39, but there's not really a great definition. My wife was just asking me.
the other week, like what technically is middle age? And I like, I don't know, or forty five to sixty four, but I have no idea. Well yeah. Yeah. That's
Karina (29:22)
I mean it really d it really depends on when you die. So you just don't know what midlife is.
Elizabeth Cantwell (29:23)
I mean
Think you can have, I
was thinking about this because for this issue, I was thinking about what counts. And I think you can have a midlife crisis anytime after 30. That's where I got to in
my head. Like,
Chad Perman (29:40)
I mean, I would say psychologically, yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (29:42)
yeah, like I don't think it has to be about the specific age. I think it's more about what we're talking about. It's more about this feeling of I've gotten to a certain point in my life where I thought I'd have a different setup.
Or I thought I'd be a different person, or I thought I'd feel differently, and I'm realizing that I don't feel differently. I'm realizing that I feel either the same as I felt before or worse. And now how do I move forward? And that's yeah. Like,
Chad Perman (30:13)
And yeah, what do I want the next half of my life to be like? 'Cause yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (30:17)
how do I do I just give up? Do I just say this is it?
Or do I try to make some change, some radical change that will t totally take me out of this feeling? Or is there a way that I can without a radical change, and that's what this movie is, I think, trying to grapple with,
Chad Perman (30:35)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (30:35)
right? Without a radical change, have a perspective shift that allows me to keep going in a way that feels viable.
Chad Perman (30:44)
Yeah. And also I love I love the including the on-screen like text, like that that they're they're typing up all these things. It's like they're doing a very official study. Like this is not just us drinking. We are studying things. And they're breatholizing throughout
Elizabeth Cantwell (30:52)
I do love that. It legitimizes it.
Karina (30:54)
No.
Chad Perman (31:00)
the day to see like, am I at the right amount? And you know, Yeah, it was just funny, because of course men are gonna approach it that way. Like, yeah, no, no, we're not just getting drunk all day. We're doing a very
important science experiment here. Were they were they was
Karina (31:11)
Yeah. It's for science, yes. It's from
Chad Perman (31:14)
the idea at some point they were gonna publish a paper or was it just like I don't know if it went that far.
Elizabeth Cantwell (31:17)
I mean I think the I
think that one of them says something about like, well it'll be a great study but yeah, I don't
Chad Perman (31:21)
Okay. Okay.
Elizabeth Cantwell (31:25)
I don't know that they're gonna get that like peer reviewed.
Chad Perman (31:28)
Yeah. Well now you can just have AI ride at some.
Elizabeth Cantwell (31:31)
That's true. But yeah, Karina,
I do I do think that midlife I think about Nora Efron movies a lot too when I think about midlife crises for women. That's like the other sort of category. but we don't make enough of them because we're scared of seeing a middle aged woman on screen who doesn't look like she's still twenty six.
Karina (31:55)
Yes. Well, I wouldn't, and I will give a shout
out to Nancy Myers for Something's Gotta Give,
I mean, I just I remember being on an airplane and I was watching this like Sishet 18-year-old guy, two guys watching Something's Gotta Give wrapped,
Chad Perman (32:10)
Yeah.
Karina (32:11)
loving it so much. And I was like, She is a genius because she got two.
Straight guys who seemed, I don't know, I'm sure they were extraordinary, but they seemed sort of, you know. And she got them to watch a love story about two 60 year olds. So I was like, that is that is an act of genius. I mean, obviously the most charismatic two 60 year olds of all time, but yes, true. But but essentially.
Chad Perman (32:26)
Yeah. I was gonna say ki count of Reeves though too, but so that pro that they're like,
this can be like the Matrix. no, it's not
Karina (32:38)
It's yes, exactly.
No, but I thought like that's a genius way, it's like a genius delivery system for a love story about two sixty-year-olds. And I think for that movie, they were having midlife crises. You know, I mean,
Elizabeth Cantwell (32:51)
Yes.
Karina (32:52)
but but anyway, yes, I agree with what you're saying. And then I then I started thinking like what movies show both, right? and so I posit
that Bulldurum.
Chad Perman (33:05)
Ooh, you wrote about that like a decade ago. I remember that.
Karina (33:06)
I'm gonna say Bull Durham is yes, which
yes, always going to bat for Bull Durham, but
Chad Perman (33:13)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (33:14)
A great movie.
Karina (33:16)
yes, a truly great movie. and then I was thinking.
Chad Perman (33:19)
So you're thinking that
Susan Sarandan
and Kevin Costner are having their midlife crisis? Yeah.
Karina (33:22)
I think they're both I think they both
yes, 'cause they're both inhabiting
Elizabeth Cantwell (33:25)
Yes.
Karina (33:26)
roles that no longer fit them and they have to move
Elizabeth Cantwell (33:28)
I agree.
Karina (33:28)
on. Yeah, Tim Robbins.
Chad Perman (33:30)
And Tim Robbins is just there.
Elizabeth Cantwell (33:34)
He's so cute.
Karina (33:35)
Yeah.
yeah, I was thinking
Chad Perman (33:36)
other movies though? But
that I Bull Durham's good. Yeah. That's a good poll.
Elizabeth Cantwell (33:38)
Yeah, that's
a really good one.
Karina (33:41)
I was think I also thought I I don't know why I'm just like going back into the archive of of the eighties, I guess. But yes, I mean I
Chad Perman (33:48)
That's like what we all do with this at our age, yeah.
Karina (33:51)
I think like Frankie and Johnny, maybe, which it's like
Chad Perman (33:55)
yeah. I haven't seen that in years.
Elizabeth Cantwell (33:57)
It would be fun to break it
down into like subcategories too, like midlife crisis movies in which someone dies, midlife crisis movies in which people
Chad Perman (34:04)
Ha ha ha.
Elizabeth Cantwell (34:06)
get together, midlife crisis movies in which marriage ends. Like
Chad Perman (34:10)
Midlife crisis
movies with alcohol. Cause yeah, it's literally my wife's favorite
Karina (34:11)
Terms of endearment. Terms of endearment, I think, is like another dual it just has to be with Jack Nicholson.
Chad Perman (34:17)
movie, but she also refuses to watch it for our family movie night stuff because it's so sad. Yeah. And I thought, you know, I I just thought
Karina (34:23)
It's so sad, but yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (34:25)
I've never I've never seen it. I know.
Chad Perman (34:29)
like, this is gonna like on Golden Pond or something like that. I can't relate to it all because I she I was like, okay, it's your favorite movie, and I'm showing you like my 87th favorite movie all the time. So like
let's watch your favorite movie. So we watched it when we were like 23 or 24. And I was like, this is a ma I wasn't super aware of James L. Brooks at the time. and I was I was amazed at how good that movie was. And I think I think the video box cover poisoned a lot of people like me against it. and the name
Karina (34:57)
Yeah, no.
Chad Perman (34:58)
of the movie, and he's like, this is some like Deborah Winger's in it, and like stuff happens. But when I actually saw it, I was that is a fantastic, fantastic movie.
that I probably also don't ever want to watch again.
Karina (35:10)
Yeah, it's really strange. Well I mean it's also like a thing to behold to think about the reign of Jack Nicholson across across decades
and how you know how w his whole my his whole life
Chad Perman (35:22)
He's been in midlife for his whole life.
Karina (35:26)
was midlife until maybe lately. But
Chad Perman (35:29)
Yeah.
Karina (35:29)
what came along with that,
which feels like sort of like a summation of cultural ideas, you know, in terms of
what people thought was sexy and and okay, which is horribly not okay in modern times.
Chad Perman (35:41)
Yeah.
Karina (35:43)
But but still I mean, yeah, great movie. So
Elizabeth Cantwell (35:47)
Okay, I'm thinking about something. This is kind of a shift in topic, but it's it's it's related. so as we were talking, I was thinking about like horror movies that are midlife crises, and I was thinking about the shining, because I think the shining is a midlife crisis movie. And then I was thinking about the fact that
Jack Nicholson in that movie is struggling to write to create a piece of art. And then I was thinking about the relationship between
Artistic creation and midlife crisis. And I do
Chad Perman (36:17)
Yeah.
Karina (36:18)
Mm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (36:18)
think that that relates back to another round as well. like I feel like there is this thread of like when you're young, you are a creative being in many ways. Like you have this sort of,
Chad Perman (36:30)
Well, just inherently, yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (36:32)
yeah, exactly. You have this sort of imaginative power. and so often as we get older, and I think there was even something.
There was a New Yorker article about this, was it like a year ago, saying that you know, studies prove that you're less creative the older you get, or something like that. And so if we look at the arc of many great artists or writers, their early stuff is fantastic. And as they get older, it starts to stagnate or it becomes, they're just doing what they did twenty years ago, but like less good. it was somebody
somebody out there listening is gonna know what this was, but it was an article
Chad Perman (37:11)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (37:12)
that a bunch of people passed around and it was specifically a creator saying they were stepping away from their artistic field as they got older because they decided they had already done what they could do and they were like, it's time for me to to move on. maybe I totally got that wrong. Maybe I just made up what this article is, but that's that's what it was in my head, which
Chad Perman (37:32)
Are you feeling
less creative, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth Cantwell (37:34)
Well, if that's not what the
article said, it's interesting that I interpreted it that way. But I think that the dance and the music in this film acts as sort of these moments of creative catharsis that we see characters reaching for in different
ways as a way of reminding themselves I can still create, I can still, you know, be this sort of
Chad Perman (38:02)
Be
alive. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (38:03)
younger being. Be alive.
Yeah, the the creative act is like in tandem with feeling alive.
Karina (38:11)
Mm-hmm. thought, yeah. Yes, the dance of life. I thought, you
Chad Perman (38:12)
dance in life.
Karina (38:16)
know, it's interesting to me, because obviously we need to address the dance at some point. we've buried the yes.
Chad Perman (38:21)
Yeah, I was gonna say we've really buried the the ultimate moment.
Karina (38:26)
And what I thought was interesting before we get to the final dance is like, you know, Chad, I think you brought up the three other care friends dancing when they're drunk.
Chad Perman (38:36)
Mm-hmm.
Karina (38:37)
And that
those gestures as they were dancing, which, you know, it feels very improvised and then it and then as you're watching it, you're like n someone, you know, choreographed this. And yes.
Chad Perman (38:48)
Yeah, then they're starting to like choreograph their kicks and stuff.
Karina (38:52)
And it just and it really strongly reminded me of the dance in Band of Outsiders, Band Apart by Godard. And I felt
Chad Perman (38:57)
yeah. I don't know.
Karina (38:59)
like and to me that felt very deliberate by the director, like
Chad Perman (39:04)
Now that
you're saying that, that has to be
Karina (39:06)
Yeah, it's because it was very
you know, it's three figures like in sync doing a a dance that's fairly similar. And I I felt like it is sort of embodying what you're saying, Elizabeth, about what dance can do for both for the characters and for the film itself. Like if the dance feels like an opportunity to
enliven the characters and enliven the movie. Like it's a sort of pure creativity. And I, you know, and I think the culminating dance, which I'm sure you both have a lot to say about, like I feel like it it's in dialogue not only with the characters and Martin particularly and Mad Mickelson's background as a dancer himself, but I think it's also
sort of in dialogue with other movies that have dance, you know, so I think it's so eight and a half. I mean, it made me think of the dance.
Chad Perman (39:59)
Even eight and a half ends with a dance, you know? And the seventh seal.
Karina (40:06)
Yeah. And it it made me think of Beau Travaille, like the, you know, where there's this insane dance
Chad Perman (40:10)
yeah, sure. Famously.
Karina (40:12)
that feels very disconnected from, you know, it's it's seated a little bit in the narrative, but at the same time it
it becomes like a culminating statement about the character, but it's also like totally so different. And yet at the same time, the most memorable thing you remember about that film.
Chad Perman (40:29)
Yeah, that's what most people remember, yeah.
Karina (40:32)
And so, you know, and I thought like, it's it's so powerful, you know, so I, you know, I'm just I'm just creating a ramp for for you, for you both to start talking about the dance.
Chad Perman (40:46)
And I wanna make sure we also mention that I know Elizabeth has had a background in dance too, so curious what she th no, not like that.
And but but I also think
Elizabeth Cantwell (40:51)
like that though.
Karina (40:52)
okay. Not like
Chad Perman (40:56)
in and yeah, she she famously goes to, you know, benches and jumps off them and just starts whirling around. So no.
Karina (41:01)
in jazz ballet.
Chad Perman (41:03)
And Jazz Bell as gonna say but I was gonna
Elizabeth Cantwell (41:03)
Jazz ballet, jazz ballet.
Karina (41:04)
Yes.
Chad Perman (41:05)
say like the the you were talking about like it was you know, the seating of stuff and I think
I mean they are literally from the early, early scenes trying to get him to dance. That is a small and that's it's not super subtle, but I mean it comes up enough times throughout the film and he always, you know, passes off and somewhere does some little like thing, but he never they want to see like they're like, Hey, you took jazz jazz ballet lessons. They try to imitate like what it would look like, but he just never does it. So I that's why I always thought that last moment when he's kind of like, fuck it.
I'm gonna just go for it. is like that's him returning to his younger self, you know, in some ways or reconnecting with that younger self. which might
Elizabeth Cantwell (41:44)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (41:47)
be obvious, but I I just was like, that was really powerful. Like he embraced it finally.
Elizabeth Cantwell (41:53)
Yeah, and I think dance is actually like the most difficult of the arts to perform publicly in a casual way, right?
Like singers, okay, so singers love to sing. If you if somebody you know is a singer, they're gonna be singing along with the radio, they're gonna be finding an excuse to sing randomly, a few bars of something. You always know when you have a friend who sings. I myself am guilty of this, I will sing all the time.
Chad Perman (42:21)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (42:22)
And I'm like, gay, hey, did you guys know I could sing? Guess what?
Chad Perman (42:25)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (42:26)
singing is easy. Artists love to sh, you know, like it's more quiet, but like occasionally you'll be like, Wow, did you paint that? That's amazing. Or like, this artist is like I have this friend who's an Yeah, and I have a friend who's an artist
Chad Perman (42:38)
also doodling all the time.
Elizabeth Cantwell (42:41)
and they're gonna tell me about like, I have this show going up at this gallery. Cool, great. Like photographers are always taking pictures. This is me generalizing about all the arts.
Chad Perman (42:48)
And if you know a guy who if you know a guy who
plays the guitar, you definitely have been told you've definitely heard that he's played the guitar and you've heard him play the guitar.
Elizabeth Cantwell (42:53)
You definitely have yes. But dance is such
a different thing because it feels so much more vulnerable. It also
Chad Perman (43:03)
That's the word I was gonna yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (43:05)
feels like when people ask to see you dance, the feeling of it is not it feels like somebody asking you to like be a performing monkey, right? Like, you
Chad Perman (43:15)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (43:15)
dance, dance for us, right? And it's like, I'm not just that's not how it works. I'm just gonna dance for you.
Chad Perman (43:18)
Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (43:22)
like literally the phrase dance for us, I feel like is really gross, right?
Chad Perman (43:26)
Mm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (43:27)
and exploitative. And true dance is internally joyful, but it's hard to yes, yes. I love, yeah, my four-year-old right now dances all the time, and he's always asking
Chad Perman (43:34)
And every kid dances, by the way. They dance like crazy. And they don't think 'cause they have no self consciousness. yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (43:45)
me to dance with him, and it's so fun. And of course, my 13-year-old is like.
I'm never gonna dance, right? Like
Chad Perman (43:51)
And I
both of my kids danced nonstop, like throughout their first ten years, and there's just no way either one of them would dance publicly now, as far as I know, I couldn't imagine them doing that now. so there is a
Elizabeth Cantwell (44:03)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (44:03)
lot in there about like it's it's also just this thing humans are born with and historically goes back as I'm sure as far as not far than cave painting, so you couldn't prove it. But it's just always been such a
Elizabeth Cantwell (44:14)
And again.
Chad Perman (44:14)
huge part of human connect. But we just have like I will
publicly put myself out there and say I don't dance in public. I think the last time we did was at my wedding and that was twenty-five years ago. So
Elizabeth Cantwell (44:25)
Well, to go back to the gender
aspect too, for men, it's specifically specifically vulnerable because it feels like you're going against like masculine ethic ethics or like a masculine code, right?
Chad Perman (44:35)
Hmm. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (44:38)
I think women, you do see more scenes of women dancing in movies, or women are more likely to dance. This is a huge generalization, but I think that for many men who have dance skills, it feels even more scary to be
who who you are in that moment. I don't know, Karina, does that track for you?
Karina (45:00)
Yeah, and
you know, that's an interesting point that you kind of lose your your like your you gain inhibitions about movement and about dance, you know, or you you become a really self conscious about the movements of your body. You know, I wasn't even thinking about that, but which I think is
is true. I mean, yes, I think like the whole time the particularly I think Tommy, the gym teacher, is kind of teasing Martin about the dance,
Chad Perman (45:32)
Sure.
Karina (45:33)
you know, it's it's like a joke, you know, it's it's like, you're a ballet dancer, which sounds pejorative, you know. And then when you see it, I think what's extraordinary is like he's just so good, you know, that it's sort of a little beyond
it's a little beyond what feels possible, it like narratively, you know, like it's it's sort of I I feel like that's like one of those moments where it's like the story meets like cinema. and so because you know, then there's I guess Mads Mickelson had some background in dance, you know, so I think it's like
Obviously the director wanted to like, let's see this thing, which I don't think we've seen anywhere else. You know, so it's like this interesting
Chad Perman (46:24)
Yes. No.
Karina (46:28)
moment of both the character revealing himself and then the actor revealing himself, you know, which there's something about that that's like extraordinarily powerful, you know, I because it's because it's like the apotheosis of the film, but it's also like, here's this character, here's this actor who
Is so exceptional, and he's been walking in the guise of a man who's kind of failing, and it's kind of taking the mask
off, and sh you know, so he's both the character and not the character at the same time. Like, so I feel like it's this really exceptional moment of like, you know, he becomes like a superhero. It's not a superhero movie, but it's it
Chad Perman (47:16)
Yeah.
Karina (47:17)
just it's like.
I don't know. I I feel like the movie does something that is both it's both wrong but really right for for ha letting the audience exit the movie.
Chad Perman (47:29)
Yeah, and I don't think I mean I think I think I was aware that he danced in the movie because that that pretty quickly went viral, as we were all on the internet all day long in the pandemic. But I I I d don't think there's any hint that that's how that movie is going to end. As it's kind of on its downward slope, you know, 'cause it's a Scandinavian movie, everyone's gonna be very depressed by the end here. so it's such a just
turn sleight of hand that all of a sudden he's like, we're gonna get this instead and then we end with this freeze frame. capturing him in in
midair, like at the height of his kind of exuberance or whatever.
Elizabeth Cantwell (48:04)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (48:04)
which is a powerful way to end a movie that is pretty much walking you down a depressive slope the whole way until that point.
Elizabeth Cantwell (48:10)
I mean, we could say that it's kind of a cop out too, because you don't have to see any denouement. Like he doesn't actually have to fulfill on this revelation that he had about life. He can just be
Chad Perman (48:22)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (48:22)
frozen in air there and we don't have to deal with whether Annika actually likes him again or not. Or can of course, but like, you know, you text people, whatever.
Chad Perman (48:28)
Well, she she texts him and she misses him right before. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (48:36)
but no
Karina (48:36)
It feels
a it feels a little unearned. I mean, he must have been amazing back in the day for her to still miss him now.
Chad Perman (48:42)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (48:44)
but in in tandem with this, we also haven't talked about the Kierkegaard quote,
which to me felt so central this time around, where the student who's very anxious about the exam and who gets a passing grade by drinking during the exam, which again, like we can have qualms about that the teacher gives him and is like, drink some more of your water.
but that Kierkegaard quote about how or the concept that how only through accepting our failures and acknowledging our failures can we truly connect,
Chad Perman (49:16)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (49:18)
I think is so key to what the movie's trying to say.
Chad Perman (49:21)
isn't there a Kierkegaard quote that starts the movie? I don't remember what that quote was, but
Elizabeth Cantwell (49:25)
Yeah
I also don't remember
Karina (49:27)
I
no, it wasn't it wasn't translated in the version that I just watched. So it it remains a mystery for me.
Chad Perman (49:32)
okay.
Elizabeth Cantwell (49:33)
Maybe that's why we don't remember.
Chad Perman (49:36)
I feel like I feel like it was at least subtitled on I don't know, maybe not. I just re yeah clearly he wanted Kierkegaard to be some kind of point in there. And you know, famous kind of either or like yeah, famously super anxious, I mean that that was the he might have written those words, but it wasn't something it sounded like he was ever able to do himself.
Elizabeth Cantwell (49:56)
Well, and I feel like Kierkegaard was so wrapped up with like so much of it it has to do with religion
for Kierkegaard
Chad Perman (50:02)
Yeah, sure.
Elizabeth Cantwell (50:03)
still, but then his philosophies sort of become the root of the later existentialists. So
Chad Perman (50:09)
yeah. No.
Karina (50:10)
Okay.
Elizabeth Cantwell (50:11)
I think that's like yeah, that's important too to this movie. It does feel existential in that in that way.
Chad Perman (50:19)
the other piece to touch on the the production history of it I mean Vingerberg himself was fifty years old when he made it. So whatever you think about his midlife crisis, definitely fifty is in there. but also that you know, that his his daughter had had died tragically in a car accident four days into the shoot. so that he's
directing this entire thing, with just the heaviest possible weight on your heart you can imagine. she was, you know, she was gonna play one of the kids in the movie. she loved the script, so they decided to go forward with it, for her. but just the way that that informs some I I you know, it's not something you can prove, it's not science. You can't say, this this was informed by how he was feeling but it it just feels like
very humanistic in a way. I know some of his other movies might as well, but this one just really felt like he was paying a lot of attention to emotional beats in a way that really stood out to me at the time I was watching it a few years ago. So just wanted to put that out there because it's got such a such a tragedy behind it that that dancey and they talked about it, you know, at the time all of the there weren't QA's during this time and probably's and everything else. So he did one with Gamer del Toro.
it was Mads and Thomas Winterberg and him. And he was just talking about how powerful it was. His wife came on set that day to, you know, watch. They were all kind of thinking of the daughter during this dance scene. That was a scene she'd apparently been looking forward to a lot. and so that just added so much more as I was, you know, looking into the movie as I was writing about. I was like, my god, like there is so much actual emotion in there. So it was just
Yeah, the dance of life. And it was I feel myself getting tears I'm talking about. So yeah. it's just powerful that someone can do something like that with art
Karina (52:09)
Yeah, no.
Elizabeth Cantwell (52:09)
Yeah.
Karina (52:10)
It's well, I feel like thinking about the dance in that context, it sort of reminds you of like how important joyfulness and lightness are, you know, whether it's premeditated or spontaneous you know, it's like it it does feel like a departure from the character, even though it's we know he was a dancer, it's
It's something so far in excess of what he's expressed up until that moment. And I feel like it does have that, it has an energy of sort of lightness and joyfulness, but also like some urgency to the dance, you know. So maybe that's a factor, you know, that that
Chad Perman (53:01)
Yeah.
Karina (53:01)
loss is a factor because it's like, what else are you?
What else are you doing things for if not to celebrate, you know, the people you care about and the the time that you have yourself, you know?
Elizabeth Cantwell (53:17)
Yeah, well, and it's so much about being in midlife and accepting failure also has to do with like holding grief and not not running away from grief. And I think that that's what like the the stereotypical midlife crisis of like I bought a sports car and I'm sleeping with a 20 year old is like trying to escape grief, right? Just like I don't wanna feel the grief I feel about no longer being young, about having, you know.
not fulfilled on certain aspects of my ambition about having let certain people down, about losing friends, right? I think that the older you get, the more likely it is that someone in your life is no longer there, right? And whether that's to death or to a horrible fallout or to, or to the vicissitudes of being alive. so I think that that question of how do you hold grief
in your body also then can translate into a dance of kinds.
Chad Perman (54:16)
Yeah.
And for what it's worth, I've I've definitely posted this quote online before because it's a great one. But Guillermo del Toro said on this Zoom thing, which you can watch on YouTube, is the final scene, he told them, is one of the most extraordinary things I've ever seen on film ever. Not this year, not this decade, ever. And
He famously watches thousands and thousands of movies, so that's high praise indeed.
Elizabeth Cantwell (54:43)
No, it is it is a beautiful final scene. And then if I can just bring in one more Kierkegaard thing. The
Chad Perman (54:49)
Always.
Elizabeth Cantwell (54:50)
I looked up so he has this quote. I made my students read this essay l two years ago and they hated me for it. But then also they wouldn't
Chad Perman (54:59)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (55:00)
stop referring to it throughout the course. It was one of those things where like as we were reading it, they were like, This is the worst thing we've ever had to try to understand. And then later in the course they kept being like, Remember that Kierkegaard thing? But
Chad Perman (55:10)
Hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (55:10)
it's
The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self, or it is that in the relation that the relation relates itself to its own self. The self is not the relation, but that the relation relates itself to its own self. So they they really did not like me.
But this question of the self's,
Chad Perman (55:28)
they must have hated you. I'm gonna have to listen to that like five times to even kind of get that.
Karina (55:29)
Ha ha ha.
Elizabeth Cantwell (55:34)
the self's relationship to the self.
Chad Perman (55:37)
Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (55:37)
And
the way that the relationship relates itself to the self, I
Chad Perman (55:40)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (55:41)
think is also key both for Mickelson's character in this movie and also for being in midlife. Like that you then
Chad Perman (55:48)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (55:49)
have to reckon with what is my relationship to myself and how does that relationship to myself affect my being in this world? Yeah.
Chad Perman (56:02)
And what do I want to do about that? Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (56:04)
And what do I want to do about that? Yeah. How do
I how do I move forward knowing that I have this relationship? And I think that all the characters in the movie, even Tommy in
Chad Perman (56:13)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (56:14)
his because I think we it's clear that he has made the decision to not go on living. But I think all the characters in this movie are are really grappling with and a Annika, Annika, grappling with like, how do I want to
What kind of self do I want to be? What kind of relationship to myself do I want to have?
Chad Perman (56:32)
Uh-huh.
Elizabeth Cantwell (56:33)
And how can I have that relationship?
Chad Perman (56:34)
Yeah, and when she's leaving him, she's she may as has that line it's not the drinking, everyone in this country drinks like maniacs. It's like that you're never present. And you go
Elizabeth Cantwell (56:44)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Perman (56:44)
back to like the beginning before he started drinking, and he's just kind of checked out from a lot of so he's not present and then when he's drinking, he thinks that's getting him really like in the moment, but it's still a very
like personal thing. So he's still not present because he's drunk. And so it's really about, yeah, that how do you be also how do you be present? How does yourself be present in your own life? even if it's just running on really familiar beats that you're like, is this all there is? I mean, it's yeah, it's really about trying to find some kind of meaning and like midlife crisis wise, psychology wise.
most people solve that not through getting a Ferrari or, you know, having an affair or whatever. if they actually solve it, it's usually solved through acceptance of where your life is, but also then what kind of meaning, you know, you have to have that meaning or else a lot of other stuff that you thought would bring you meaning growing up, like, you know, whatever that is for you. but
success, career, kids, whatever, those things have happened and you don't feel the way you thought they were gonna make you feel. So then you're like, well, I need to find some kind of deeper meaning here.
Karina (57:48)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Perman (57:49)
Anything that we didn't hit on that that either one of you wanted to bring up?
Elizabeth Cantwell (57:54)
I mean, I don't know if this is the right thing to talk about at the end of the podcast, but I'd love to talk a little bit about how the movie looks. Just the look of the movie,
Karina (58:03)
Mm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (58:04)
the way it's shot.
Chad Perman (58:03)
Sure, yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (58:05)
I don't know if either of you had thoughts about it as you were watching it.
Karina (58:08)
Well tell me tell me your tell me your thoughts.
Elizabeth Cantwell (58:10)
I well,
I think at first I was feeling like it felt very clean, like too clean.
Karina (58:17)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (58:18)
it is a very c it does have I mean, the camera's handheld in many places,
so it's not like it's a stable frame, which I think works for the characters, but I also just felt like the lines of the frames were so you know, we've got this wood and then we've got this window, and then we've got this.
you know, divider. Like there's a lot of straight lines and dividers and clean frames. But I actually think that that works really well to contain the sort of like unclean, for lack of a better word,
Chad Perman (58:53)
Okay.
Elizabeth Cantwell (58:55)
unclean like feeling that the characters are are experiencing. and then I think the last scene is actually shot like so you're so it's the I don't want to say
Chad Perman (59:06)
Cinema verte.
Elizabeth Cantwell (59:08)
Yeah, I don't well, I don't want to say
confidently that it's the first time we really feel in the chaos. I think the opening scene also you kind of feel in the mix of those kids. So it's
Karina (59:16)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (59:17)
a the same feeling as the opening scene, but somehow even more allowing you to just be as a viewer immersed in this celebration. Whereas for a lot of the movie, I do think we're kind of held a little bit at arm's length from from the characters. I don't know if that tracks
Karina (59:34)
Yeah, I f
Elizabeth Cantwell (59:35)
for either of you.
Karina (59:36)
Yeah, I think I think the way it's filmed sort of rrrr reinforced this like sort of question of of tone and of intention, you know. and so I do think that I mean, definitely because of what you've articulated, the I feel like when we first meet the men,
When they're out together as a group, they're and in a lot of the subsequent scenes, they are depictions of bourgeois life filmed in a kind of received bourgeois way. and I think that it is interesting to me, like the parallels between the kids that we're seeing at the beginning and the ones that are graduating at the end, which lead to this handoff, you know, where they're
They get him to drink and he accepts it. You know, he's not holding himself back from it. And that leads to this r, you know, real expression from himself. you know, I I just thought that there's something interesting because I, you know, I I feel like it's both stylistic, but also sort of thinking about his the director's
cultural concerns or something, you know, like it feels like, because I feel like he's just thinking about the constraints of Danish life, you know, which I feel can be I mean, at least based on stereotype and on what the characters say in the film, you know, it's particularly for the men, kind of held back
by roles of duty and responsibility, you know, and so it's so it is liberating to kind of feel
like by whatever means see the characters a little bit free of this yoke that is self imposed or imposed upon them or something. So yeah, I the directing, it works, I guess.
Chad Perman (1:01:52)
The directing, it works.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:01:53)
I love it.
Chad Perman (1:01:55)
All right. So that was the last round of another round for us. so we're gonna move on to recommendations from everybody. anybody wanna start?
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:02:04)
I'll start. I'll start.
Chad Perman (1:02:05)
Okay. Elizabeth?
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:02:06)
if we're if we're thinking about books that are film related, I mean I guess it's not necessarily film related, but I'm teaching the Maltese Falcon. before we watch the Maltese Falcon, we are gonna see the movie as well, but I'm just really enjoying reading the book again, being
Chad Perman (1:02:24)
Mm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:02:24)
immersed in that style. It's very fun, it's very tight, it's very enjoyable.
And as I'm rereading the book with my students, I'm also feeling like, man, it's really not a Humphrey Bogart character. I much prefer
Chad Perman (1:02:37)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:02:38)
Bogart's Marlowe to Bogart's Spade. But yeah, read the Maltese Falcon if you've never read it. And then viewing wise, I recently watched Casino, which
Chad Perman (1:02:48)
Ooh, have you not seen that before?
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:02:50)
okay, so I think I had seen like half of it.
Chad Perman (1:02:54)
Mm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:02:56)
Maybe I saw all of it, but I fell asleep during part of it. Do you know what I mean? It's one of those movies where I had memories of yes, it is. I
Chad Perman (1:03:00)
True. It's very long.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:03:03)
had memories of swaths of it, but not of all of it. And wow, what a movie. I'm I'm gonna go out on a limb and say,
Chad Perman (1:03:11)
I love that movie.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:03:12)
I maybe feel like if I rewatched Goodfellas, I might prefer Casino. And I'm not sure, but I loved it. I loved the energy, I loved the vibe.
I was so into it. So three cheers for a casino.
Chad Perman (1:03:26)
I'm so happy to hear that.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:03:28)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (1:03:28)
I love that. That was our that was the movie we put on the dorm in college that we just play throughout
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:03:32)
Ha ha
Chad Perman (1:03:33)
the night on a loop as various people were in various states of however they were doing in college. But yeah, it was I love that movie. And I used to, when I worked at the video stories, to put that on. The people the only reason people get mad is like, well, that takes up three hours and so someone else doesn't get to pick. But it's it moves
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:03:46)
It does.
Chad Perman (1:03:49)
just like I mean, just like Goodfellas, just like the Wolf of Wall Street, it's it's continually like wall-to-wall soundtracked.
It's got so many I mean, it just keeps your attention the whole time. and I just yes, yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:03:57)
And De Niro and Pesci are both so good in it. Again, I feel like
I'd have to re watch Good Fellas, but
Chad Perman (1:04:04)
Corrine, have you seen Casino? Okay.
Karina (1:04:05)
I have seen Casino. I'm trying I mean,
I think amazing performance by Sharon Stone, right? Like unbelievable.
Chad Perman (1:04:14)
yes, also, sure.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:04:15)
Yes.
Karina (1:04:16)
And I feel like it really my god, what were the crazy stories that she was she was talking about Scorsese like lying on the floor, kind of whispering to her when she,
Chad Perman (1:04:25)
Yeah.
Karina (1:04:27)
you know, was having a hard
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:04:27)
Hehehe
Karina (1:04:28)
time with her character. So I feel like you know.
I'm gonna always ride or die for Sharon Stone, because I feel like she
Chad Perman (1:04:36)
Yeah.
Karina (1:04:36)
was so kind of compartmentalized into a certain into her body and femme fatale and actually is incredible, you know. So I I
Chad Perman (1:04:47)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:04:48)
Mm-hmm.
Karina (1:04:49)
feel like, yeah, that's amazing. I mean,
Chad Perman (1:04:51)
Yeah.
Karina (1:04:54)
yeah, yeah, it's I mean, quite sinister, like su such a dark movie. Have it but you've seen
Chad Perman (1:04:58)
Yes.
Karina (1:05:00)
the
I'm sure you've seen that Scorsese documentary on on Apple by Yes. And I I feel like the discussion
Chad Perman (1:05:06)
yeah. I watched that last great. I loved it.
Karina (1:05:09)
about casino is is pretty amazing. So
Chad Perman (1:05:11)
Yeah, was
it Mr. Scorsese or something like that? It was called The Documentary I mean, yeah.
Karina (1:05:14)
Yes.
Chad Perman (1:05:16)
Highly recommend that one. That was fantastic. Yeah, but
Karina (1:05:18)
Yeah, yeah.
Chad Perman (1:05:20)
what any recommendations for you?
Karina (1:05:22)
Recommendations. Well, I am in the middle of reading the Rachel Cusk Life of book, which is allegedly about Natalie Portman. Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:05:30)
About Natalie Portman. Yeah.
Karina (1:05:32)
And so and for you know, the world's I guess, first of all, both Rachel Cusk and Natalie Portman, I think, live in Paris now or were living in Paris when they sort of became quasi-friends and embarked upon this work of maybe fiction.
but I think one of the interesting things, which I'm trying to find as I'm sitting here talking to you, is that Rachel Kusk has this interesting idea about the difference between watching movies and reading books, and how basically a book makes you work harder, which I think is arguably true. whereas
movies kind of co-opt your time and give you this illusory experience of time. So so the I character, who's a stand-in for I think Rachel Cusk, basically states that she has limited the number of movies that she's watched because it sort of limits her thinking and robs her time. So when she meets the Natalie Portman character, she doesn't know who Natalie Portman is because she hasn't watched that many movies.
Chad Perman (1:06:47)
Mm.
Karina (1:06:47)
But I
think, you know, so it's so it's it's interesting in terms of how the book unfolds, but I I think it's also interesting in terms of thinking about being a thinking person in society in modern times and actually doesn't even matter anymore. Movies actually probably make you think
Chad Perman (1:07:06)
Ha ha.
Karina (1:07:06)
more than a lot of other things. But
Chad Perman (1:07:08)
Yeah.
Karina (1:07:09)
so reading that and then I haven't watched, I've been sort of in transit a lot. So
The one thing that I have watched recently is Steel Magnolias. so and
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:07:19)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Perman (1:07:20)
yes.
Karina (1:07:23)
everybody's incredible and in the movie. And I think I mean the movie rests on a questionable premise premise, which is does the Julia Roberts character have to have her own biological child, which
Kind of causes her a lot of physical distress and results in her death, right? So, so there's this kind of shaky premise that maybe in the 80s made a lot of sense. however, everyone else, they're all amazing. And when she dies,
Chad Perman (1:07:56)
Yes.
Karina (1:07:58)
Sally Fields has the most the scene after Julia Roberts dies in the movie does so many things.
I feel like a lot of people have seen this movie, but if you haven't seen the movie, it is a true feat of writing and acting because the scene does everything you need it to do. It mourns Julia Roberts, who is so glorious and charming. and it also manages to be funny and it lets you not be overwhelmed by despair. So it does everything you could need a scene to do. So that's my recommendation. Like I feel like it's a triumph of writing and acting.
Chad Perman (1:08:38)
That's a great one, yeah. I think a lot of people have probably been watching that over
Karina (1:08:42)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Perman (1:08:42)
the last month or so. yeah, like you said, rest in peace, Dolly Barton. for for my recommendation, there could be two pretty disparate things here. so I I used vacation to read the decidedly not vacation book, Australitz by W. G. Seabald.
Karina (1:09:00)
Mm.
Chad Perman (1:09:01)
I was a fan of his, but I
Never read that. I'd read Rings of Saturn many years ago and I was like, I want to read more of this guy's stuff. Bought Austerlitz probably ten years ago. It's one of those ones that's been sitting on the pile. and so I I read it. And of course, if if you've ever had any experience with that at all, or or of reading any of his stuff, I mean just it it's just such a unique experience to read his writing and the way that it
just moves from thing to thing and you ca it just it it's kind of hypnotic and addictive, but you're also not really sure quite what he's doing. And then it kind of slowly coheres. And I I I just love the way that that he wrote. obviously not a not a unique opinion, but tragedy that that that he passed shortly after it was published. So we didn't get any more after that. But I would highly recommend the book. d not a not necessarily feel good one, but definitely a book full of a lot of life. So
And then my movie recommendation is on the other side of the spectrum. I did, I mentioned to you guys I did watch Straight Talk with Dolly Parton and to to join it with Casino James Woods is also in it.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:10:02)
Mm.
Chad Perman (1:10:03)
and a lot of people, I mean it just seemed like there was just a lot of I was like, hey, I know this person, hey, I know this person. I hadn't thought about the movie in like 30 years. Yeah, it's I mean, I I had to
Karina (1:10:10)
And she's she's a talk radio I did see this movie, but she's a talk radio host.
Chad Perman (1:10:14)
re I had was trying to explain to my kids because my kids wanted to watch a Dolly Parton movie in the the week after she had passed.
and they'd see nine to five and we agreed steel magnolas is way too sad. and I was like, Well, I remember this one and they're like, Well, what's it about? And I was like, She's like somehow on she's like a radio psychologist, but then when you watch the movie, no, she's like someone who through, you know, one of those eighties like mishaps or hijinks, she ends up she's working there as a person answering the phones, like for the radio show. And then she walks into the studio and someone thinks she's the new psychologist that's come on there, so they throw her on the air and so she becomes
Karina (1:10:47)
Course.
Chad Perman (1:10:48)
And of
course she's real. She's super real.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:10:48)
Classic, classic setup.
Chad Perman (1:10:51)
Now this is like, you know, if people remember radio psychologists, people from the 80s and I they're much more in the Fraser vein. And she was like, I'm
Karina (1:10:58)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (1:10:58)
telling it as it is. And like and they love it. But of course she's not a real doctor. So there's this whole thing of like, how long can we keep this going? there's a, you know, plot where like James Woods is the reporter trying to uncover like the truth about this new massively popular doctor on the radio.
but then falls in love with her through then because of course he does. And so yeah, it's it's it's not deep by any means, but it is a rollicking good time in parts. It's definitely if you're a fan of 80s, this is actually in I think 91 or 92. it's got a lot of it, it's a good watch. It's not something that you're gonna say, I gotta, you know, buy this and watch it a million times. But it's something that passes the time well and Dolly Parton is fantastically dolly in it. And yeah, she sells the whole weird.
Conceit that doesn't make any sense of how it really happened by being like, well, but she is really charming on the radio. so it works because of of her. but yeah, so that that's my that's my recommendation. and just to make it a little classier, also, Hopscotch I was mentioned to you guys with Walter Matthouse on the Criterion channel. and I watched that recently and I just thought that was a fantastic movie as well. So that's what I'm watching and reading.
Karina (1:12:07)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (1:12:08)
Yeah. And Karina, thank you so much for joining us all the way from France. And
Karina (1:12:13)
Yeah. Boress France, yeah.
Chad Perman (1:12:16)
and for and for doing this on pretty short notice. And yeah, we really appreciate having you here. It's always always great to talk to you, always have such good insights. So thank you. Yeah.
Karina (1:12:24)
thanks. No, it was so
good to be here. And yeah, can't wait to to listen on what's next. But yes, you gave me lots of
good ideas. So I'm gonna I'm gonna go do my reading and writing assignment or reading and watching
assignments.
Chad Perman (1:12:38)
I was gonna say because I'm me, I it popped into my head at one part where we were talking about movies that are midlife crisis. I like, I think you can make Joe versus the volcano a a midlife crisis movie, so
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:12:48)
You totally could. You totally
Karina (1:12:49)
Perfect.
Chad Perman (1:12:49)
So yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:12:50)
could.
Chad Perman (1:12:50)
Feels like feels like for sure that fit in. But I I can fit that into almost anything. So there it is. Everyone
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:12:56)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Perman (1:12:56)
watch that too. Yep. Evergreen.
Karina (1:12:56)
Evergreen. Yeah.
Chad Perman (1:12:58)
And Elizabeth, any any last notes? Are we ready to wrap up?
Elizabeth Cantwell (1:13:01)
No, this was great. What a lovely conversation.