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Being STRONG is more than just how much weight you can lift.
The Strong New York Podcast is dedicated to inspiring you to become your strongest self- in the gym, in business, in relationships and in life.
Join Kenny as he sits down with his strong as fuck buddies and shoots the shit on what it takes to be strong willed, strong minded and physically strong. Season one features everyone from entrepreneurs and local business owners to doctors and industry leaders in the fitness and wellness space.
With over a decade of experience, Kenny Santucci has made himself known as one of New York City’s top trainers and a thought leader in the health and wellness industry. After transforming his life at 15 years old through fitness, Kenny made it his mission to transform the lives of those around him.
Kenny has trained some of Hollywood’s biggest stars, including Jon Bon Jovi, Liev Schreiber, and Frank Ocean, and has been tapped as a fitness expert sharing his training approach with Men’s Health, Men’s Journal, Runner's World, SHAPE, Well+Good, among other publications.
Kenny is the creator of STRONG New York, NYC's only Health and Fitness Expo. Strong New York is an immersive day of workouts, wellness experiences, panel discussions, and inspiring conversations with the best in-class wellness professionals, industry leaders, and change makers who are sharing their expertise on today's hottest wellness trends and first-hand experiences on how to optimize your overall health and life.
You can find Kenny at The Strength Club, his private training and group strength training facility in the heart of Manhattan located on 28th and 5th Ave in New York City.
Cool okay back with another episode of the strongest fuck podcast. I'm your host Kenny Santucci if you haven't yet, let's go Like subscribe, do all those things. So we start to build this channel a little bit more. But today I have a very special guest who is a friend of mine who comes to the gym. He trains with another trainer.
I don't know why he trains with this guy. I mean, it's very strange, the relationship between the two of them, not on any part of his. More so on the, uh, the gentleman who trains him. Um, but Mark is here today and he's going to explain to us about what it's like to start a, uh, online business, a fitness business and, uh, transition from the entertainment world into the fitness world, which seems to be something that's become more common than before, right?
You got everybody from, uh, you know, Chris, Chris Hemsworth doing it. And Mark Wahlberg, everybody's like, yeah. You know, has this following in the, in the, uh, entertainment space and they're moving over to the fitness space. And we want to kind of dive into that. Now, how'd that happen? You were working in the, uh, the entertainment world, which most people feel like they want to work in, right.
You had a great job. You worked at CAA, you worked at William Morris. Like most people dream of having that job. Yeah. And then you transition into the fitness space, which, you know, when you're in it and you love it, it's one thing, but there's really not a lot of money in it. Yeah, you know, well, well, there is a lot of money in the space.
I mean, first and foremost, thanks for having me. So glad to be here. And I do love your gym and I love your brand. And I do love the gentleman who, uh, who's been training me for a couple of years at your gym. Shout out to Rufat. Um, yeah, you know, I, I started my career. in, in entertainment, sort of like hardcore entertainment, cutting my teeth in the agency business, which is very hard, which is hard.
You know, I went to, they start you at the fucking bottom. Well, they start you in the mailroom or at least they used to. And that's changed a little bit, but the old school, you know, Hollywood mailrooms, a thing, you know, David Geffen, Barry Diller, all these entertainment grades started in the William Morris mailroom.
Don't you think there's something to that? Like I, I appreciate, or I think people appreciate. When they start at the bottom, like when I first started in training, it's like I started cleaning up weights and handing out towels and shit like that. It teaches you to respect everyone at every level. Well, it teach, it definitely teaches, you know, a sense of, of respect sort of in the inherent hierarchy of work.
But I think it also teaches you from the ground up what's going on. Exactly. It helps you learn. Not only who you are and what you want to do, but who are the players that you want to align yourself with and how do you want to be? And you know, what do you want to actually accomplish in that world? But when I, you know, graduated from, from college, I'm to a small school in upstate New York.
I grew up outside of Syracuse and my parents wanted me to be, you know, a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist, go through that list. Right. And we come from that same generation. That's like the goal. Well, I mean, listen, I think we're the same age, right? We're, we're technically millennials. I think the real term is millennials.
Geriatric millennial, I think you're like a little more geriatric than I am on the millennial front. I got a lot more gray hair. But um, but my, my, my parents were like, okay, take the LSAT, do this, do that. And I said, I want to work in entertainment. I want to go into the agency world. And this is pre Entourage, right?
This is pre Ari Gold being like a household name. Yeah, yeah. And I went in and I went through a series of interviews, like, Some of the most intense interviews of my life to get this, you know, basically minimum wage mailroom job. And when I got it, I was like, wait, well now I need some nice suits, right?
Like I have to like look the part. My parents brought me to buy these suits at Lord and Taylor. I don't know how nice they were, but it was a great experience because I got to learn the TV business, the music business, the commercial business, the motion picture business, the literary and books business all by sorting and delivering mail.
But in the middle of it all, interacting with these agents who were these incredible advocates for their clients, creating cultural impact, creating huge businesses along the way. And that's where I started. So I was at William Morris through their, their merger with Endeavor. So that's WME for all the sports fans out there and entertainment fans who know WME great company.
And then after that, I went to another, um, competing agency called CAA. Another phenomenal, phenomenal, phenomenal. Phenomenal company, um, across sports and media. So I feel so blessed to have been able to work and learn under those two, two institutions, which I think you, you seem like the type that appreciate it.
The fact that like, yes, this job was hard. I'm sure you had some bosses who yelled at you and, you know, kind of made you feel like shit. And I feel like that's a little lost nowadays. Like now everybody gets so offended if their boss, it's like, Don't you kind of feel like, I'm glad I went through that shit period because it means, I mean, I'm glad I went through, well, you know, we'll call it like the, the, the, the corporate haze, but it wasn't, it wasn't bad.
It wasn't, you know, it wasn't what you might see on TV or reading a book. It wasn't disrespectful. No one's throwing a stapler at your head, but, but the demand is. You know, you are there to work and do the job and perform, but also learn and show that you are learning and showing that you are additive and showing that you are part of that internal corporate culture.
And that you can also be someone that the clients for the, you know, agents that you're working with or helping to service that they can rely on too. So it really is a two way street in that regard. But I will say a note on culture, you know, you've built such an incredible culture inside of the strength club and inside of strong New York, these two companies that I worked for prior to obey.
Both had different and amazing, amazing corporate cultures. I learned from that. My business partner now, uh, Ashley Mills, also an agent from CA. That's where we met. We brought a lot of those learnings into our internal culture at Obey, making sure that we were creating an environment that fostered, you know, productivity, creativity, a bias towards action, respect, professionalism, the list goes on.
And I think you can get that done, um, without being an insane person, your colleagues and, and, and expecting the best from each other. I, I absolutely agree. I think there's things that I've learned throughout, you know, even with your parents, like you, you see how your parents kind of brought you up and the things they did and the choices they made, and then you see how different companies you worked for, the choices they made, the things that your bosses did.
Um, but I definitely do appreciate, and even like playing sports with coaches and stuff, I definitely appreciate when somebody's like, hey, we're in this together, we need to get this done. Like, I don't think my coaches ever yelled at me or were aggressive with me because they didn't care. Yep. My parents were the same way.
My dad was definitely old school Italian, you know, cop from New Jersey, you know, so that's how I grew up. Same thing when I got to, in other jobs, I think we all, Are going towards the same way. Yeah. Are there dick bosses out there? Absolutely. You know, there's shitty bosses, but I think there's a, there's definitely something to be said about somebody who's like, Hey, we're in this together.
If I succeed, you succeed. Totally. And that's kind of how I treat my business. It's like, I want to give you more. You got to help me give you more or give me reason to give you more. Totally. Yeah. And, and you, either way, you have to have a thick skin. I, you know, I don't care if you are just starting off in business or, you know, you you're, you're 20 years into a career.
You've got some boss somewhere. If you run the company, you've got an investor, your customers, your boss in many ways, you've got to have a thick skin and you can't let that, you know, you can't wilt under, under, under pressure, under constructive criticism. But, but two things that I require in anyone that I work with and I require To be upheld at that same standard is, you know, especially at obey.
We really believe in a bias towards action, AKA we're doing something. Let's do it. Get it done. You said you were going to get it done, get it done. And then assuming the best in your colleagues. Right. So, you know, throughout the back to the team mentality, right? People screw up, people do this, people that assume the best assume that if somebody didn't get something done the way you wanted them to, or maybe something was misinterpreted.
Assume that they had the Best intentions at heart. Don't immediately go to the reverse of that. I don't like that at all. How many employees do you have? So right now we have about 40 employees. Um, so you've got a big team. Yeah, we have a good team. We have a really good team, strong team. So when someone isn't completing tasks, and I think there's a lot of business owners out there who will appreciate you hearing your answer on this.
When someone's not completing tasks and they're falling behind, because I deal with this all the time and I, I love my team. I want them to be excited about things. I take them out to dinner all the time. You know, when there's trips, I'm like, everybody come, let's all go do this together. But sometimes when they're like not doing the things you need them to do, you're, How do you approach that?
How do you handle that? Yeah. I mean, that's a two way street too, right? We're all human. We all, there's all, you know, there's, there's always something that someone is procrastinating on or, you know, that, that piece of paper keeps going to the bottom of the list of things to do. We've all done it. Uh, I did it this morning on something, right?
It's like you end up doing maybe the easier thing first. And there's that old adage, what's it called? Swallow the frog. Have you heard that? It's like, take the hardest task of the day, swallow it, eat it, go, get that done first. To err is human. We don't always do that. Um, I don't know. I think there's, it depends on the situation.
But I think that having a system in place that really does require accountability and, and, There's many ways to do that, whether it is, um, you know, keeping an Excel sort of spreadsheet of, of, of what needs to be done to, you know, uh, larger infrastructure like confluence and slack that help people, you know, stay accountable for what they're doing, Trello boards, et cetera.
But the point is, if somebody says they're going to do it and they do it great, keep it moving. If somebody says they're going to do it and they don't do it, time to have a conversation. If somebody says they're going to do it and they don't do it and they don't do it and they don't do it, they're always not doing it.
They might be fun to take out to dinner and they might be fun to work out with, but guess what? It might not be a cultural thing. So I, I do believe in strikes. I, I, yeah, and I say the same thing, but everybody's always like, Oh, you got to get rid of them. You got to fire them. I might, I, I can't just fire them.
Well, you can't just, you can't. And I, and, and, and unless it's egregious, right? You can't and shouldn't just fire anyone. Um, there, there needs to be a system in place that lets people know what, what the standards are and what the expectations were, you know, from management, from the boss, quote unquote, what needed to be done.
And if those weren't met and if they are not met over and over again, and, and, and you haven't, and you've given constructive criticism along the way about what those benchmarks are and it's performance related. Yeah. I mean, that's a conversation. If somebody does something, um, that is, that is, Off the rails and not related to work and just not appropriate.
That's a, that's a very different conversation around, around termination. But I think, I think every scenario is different. And I think at the end of the day, what you're trying to say, and what I'm also trying to say is when you hire someone you hire with the best expectations in mind and you want it to work out, you want to be a successful team.
Well, you don't want to keep. You don't want to keep bringing people in and like retraining them and teaching them your Yeah, the switching costs are, are, are, are, it's a slowdown. But again, like on a human level, you hired someone because you saw something in them and they came to you because they saw something in you or your company, your service.
You want it to work out. I think, I think when we were younger, we came from a generation of like, The workplace was very different, right? It was, it was not as kind of fun, kind of easygoing. Yeah. It was all very strict. And I, when I used to think of corporate America or a corporate job, I'm just like, Oh fuck, I can't do this.
Yeah. It's miserable. But I feel like you got a big team. You guys harbor a really good culture. Um, Was that you seeing like what you liked and what you didn't like and then kind of just creating your own thing? Yeah, I think, I think, um, you know, I think when you create, uh, any culture internally at a company, you know, part of it is this sort of ideal end goal of how you want the Things to be and feel and you want people to be happy with what they're doing with their career and that they're contributing to something, you know, great based on their skill sets, but also for someone else and with someone else.
So that's on one hand, but also if you've had previous work experience, you're probably frankensteining the things that you liked and maybe excluding the things that you didn't like. Like what it's worked in other cultures. I mean, it's your point around fun, you know, we have fun. And I, and I would say in the more, uh, hard nose suit and tie world of, of, of my early agency years, sort of in the, in the early two thousands and the, and through the aughts of, of, of, of the two thousands, um, we had fun too.
I mean, and sometimes too much fun probably, but, um, but there was an expectation around getting the work done no matter what. So if you were, if it was 2006 and you were, you know, Out at bungalow 8 until 4 in the morning on a Tuesday. Not, not me. I think other people, not me. Um, very much me. But, um, the expectation was that you were in your seat at 8, 830.
Not one thing slipped through the cracks. And so I think you can have that balance and that's kind of, Part of the fun of being young and learning a career, especially in a big city. Yeah. No, I, I took, uh, all the girls and Marty out to, um, so my staff out to the Hamptons, we do this event afterwards, everybody wanted to go out and have a good time.
I go, listen, go out, get fucked up, do whatever the hell you want. I don't give a shit. Yeah. Everybody better be here at 8 o'clock tomorrow morning. Because I'm not hauling all this shit around by myself. So go out and do whatever you want. Yeah. Because I wouldn't want to be 25, 30 years old and my boss be like, No, everyone's got to go to bed now.
It's like, what the fuck kind of culture is that? Well, you don't want that, but you also, if you do go out, great, that's awesome. But to your point, you also don't want to be the one who's dragging the next day. Uh, that, that's a problem. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's along the lines of, you know, everybody's mom's, you know, advice around the company holiday party, right?
Yeah. Don't be the one that, that, that there's a story about the next. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's a, it's a fine line. And if, and if somebody can't do that, then they shouldn't write if somebody, if somebody can't go out and have a responsible time based on the environment, based on alcohol, whatever it may be, then they need to make the right moves to the best of their ability to not put themselves in that situation so that they can move forward in life too.
One of the things that I ask a lot of my patients. Of my staff or I say to them i'm like, how could I make you better because I know I operate If someone's taking really good care of me I'm, like I don't want this to end if i'm working with a brand Or i'm working with somebody or a team of people where they're taking really good care of me I'm, like, all right.
How do I keep this going? Like what do you need from me? Yep, so that I could keep this going and I try to do that with my staff I say, all right. How could I make you perform better? How could I get you to show up here with a smile on your face every day excited to work here? You Want to do as much as you can for the client.
Yep. Right. As well as for me, like, what do I do? So I try to give them like every possible perk. That's great leadership. Yeah. Christy's got a big smile on her face every day. That dog, not so much. Well, that's, that's because that's because Christy tortures the dog. She doesn't feed her on some days. Um, so now what was that transition like?
So you're, you're clearly successful guy. You were doing really well in the entertainment industry. The transition from entertainment into fitness and wellness was really interesting. And, and you started before the pandemic. Yeah. So we started obey in 2018, but we really started in, I mean, early 2017. So my business partner, work wife, BFF, Ashley Mills, and I, we were like, you know, Bye.
Husband and wife at, at, at CAA. We worked on clients together. Were you working here in L. A.? We were in, we were both in New York. Um, we were in L. A. with each other a lot. But, you know, we basically, uh, we did a, we had a great, you know, shorthand at work, right? Our, our tennis game at work was off the charts, whether it was working on clients together, taking meetings together, you name it.
Um, we knew we wanted to keep working with each other. We also knew we wanted to do something else, you know? We were at the ground floor of helping to build Food Network and HGTV. HGTV. Bravo. These great lifestyle networks, which, you know, a lot of that's changed over time as we look at, you know, how cord cutting and streaming has changed things, but lifestyle meaning edutainment, right?
Like you are watching something, you are enjoying it. You love the person who's teaching you how to make that thing, grill that thing, decorate that house. But by the same token, you're learning something and that's really awesome. We wanted to apply that to fitness. Now this is the same time that the New York city, LA Hamptons, Miami boutique fitness movement was off the charts, right?
Celebrity instructor galore, 40 bucks a class. Can't get a spot, book the book, the slot on a Monday. You're already shut out, go to class. And it's every celebrity, every Titan of industry, you name it. That's what we were seeing. Could I ask? Sorry to cut you off. I don't think that's a thing anymore. Well, I don't know.
I mean, so, so let's, let's talk about that. So that, that, that moment, that vibe, that notion of someone who can helm a class, helm a group of people, have them do something, have them do something hard, have them learn something. their life in some way that day, change their outlook in some way that day, their health in some way that day.
That's so powerful. So we wanted to scale that, but also we wanted to do that sort of with the tool chest that we had learned over the years from other lifestyle related programming, food network, Bravo, HGTV, the list goes on and we wanted to do it at scale. So if that person is, you know, pontificating for, for a group of, Wealthy people in Tribeca for 40, 60 bucks a class.
Okay, great. But what about everybody else? I grew up in Syracuse. My business partner grew up in Dayton, Ohio. What about, what about everybody else who wants in on that? So that's really what we wanted to democratize and disseminate through obey. And I feel like we've done that. Really, really, really well. A lot of that comes down to incredible talent, incredible brand, incredible community, incredible, uh, programming and, and sort of the, the, the, the, the level that we hold ourselves to with our programming.
But to your point around that instructor thing, yeah, I do think some of it's changed a little bit with the pandemic. because there've been this, there's been this, you know, uh, uh, sort of hybridization across where people are showing up to work out. So whether you're working out with us at home on a Monday and then going to your favorite yoga class in person on a Tuesday and going for a walk with friends on a Wednesday, you're not showing up for that exact class, that one person like you were every day in New York, whatever that may be.
I also think newness mattered. Like that was like a new concept, at least for us at that time. Um, In the, in the mid, mid teens. Yeah. No, it was definitely a thing. I mean, I, when I started teaching classes back in the city in 2014, 2015, it was insane. Like, I'd have eight classes a day, booked out, 30 to 40 people.
Um, it was insane. But, how do you think, I think that, I think there were two effects on celebrity. Right. And celebrity as a whole, and you'd be a great person to ask this to with social media and also with the pandemic. Yeah. How do you think those two things have affected celebrity as a whole? Oh, I mean, that's a long one.
Um, social media and the pandemic. Listen, things, things change. So back to how we started this conversation about, um, the, the, the, the legacy linear cable business, Food Network, HGTV, Bravo, Discovery, et cetera. Yeah. That's changed a lot in the past 10 years, like in a pretty major way. That'll never be the same.
Um, what we were talking about as far as, you know, the, the boom of having to book your bike, so to speak at 12 o'clock on a Monday in 2014. And if you're three seconds late, you've missed it. I think that that's changed a little bit. Things change. But of course, in the fitness business specifically, The pandemic pulled everything forward.
People who were working out exclusively in person and who were never a quote at home workout person. I don't even think of digital fitness is at home. It's just fitness where you are, where you are, where you want to be, how you want to do it, when you want to do it, your time, your dime. That's really what digital fitness.
But in that scenario, you had people who were a never digital user now saying, you know what? I can move the coffee table in my apartment and work out here. I'm good. Or I can do little 10 minute bursts throughout the day. In between my zooms, I'm good. I can go for a walk and get the number of steps I want.
I'm good. They didn't need to go full throttle at one class, five days in a row per week. So you have a little bit of that happening. That's number one. Number two, I think with the pandemic, Plus social media and that proliferation. You also see that moment in time when everyone was going live. Remember that March, 2020 through December, 2020.
It's like, I'm going live. I'm now teaching you how to cook. I'm now teaching you how to do. Pilates, you know, mad exercise for 10 minutes. That's great too. But suddenly everyone was a star in their own, in their own, right. And in their own category, that's very cool. A lot of people built businesses during that time that are continuing to flourish.
Like I love all that. But the point is is things became a little diluted. So you didn't just need to go to that one studio in Tribeca or that one studio in Malibu for something. You didn't just need to watch that one show on that one network. It's what you wanted when you wanted it's niche. You had talent, you had modalities, you had entertainment, at your fingertips for exactly the duration you wanted, when you wanted, how you wanted.
That part's not changing. So I think what it does is it actually makes it a little bit harder in many ways for people to stand out, but it also gives a larger playing field for people all over the country and the world to find a way to stand out, spread a message, show their gifts, build a business, build a following in a way that they wouldn't have been able to pre social.
And we'll call it pre pandemic. Eyes glued to whatever that streaming form of, of, of content is. You have clearly have an eye for talent. You worked in that industry. And what we're seeing now is I, there are people on social media, YouTube, uh, performers, whatever you want to call them, uh, social media people who kind of demand And command an audience more so than big celebrities, right?
Like for instance, when I was at the Arnold, people are going nuts because Arnold Schwarzenegger's, but then there's these other bodybuilders that people are obsessed with. Like they almost like go nuts over these people. What do you think that is? In that person, is it vulnerability? Is it like their willingness to share and interact with people?
Like, what do you think it is that these now knew, you know, no, I mean, they're, they're just people sharing their lives, command more of an audience than like a celebrity. Yeah. I mean, listen, I think there'll always be room in a place for, in a big business around what we'll call traditional celebrities.
Maybe you're, you know, movie stars, musicians, et cetera. But, um, Social YouTube streaming in general has definitely been a way for other people to reach that business and to create new businesses to answer your question Um, I think it's a sense of true Authenticity and passion if somebody jumps out Out of the camera, out of the screen and into your living room, whether it's with us at obey or whether it's somebody doing a tick tock dance, whether it's somebody telling you, you know, that they're demure and mindful and suddenly they're the biggest star on the planet.
They're doing something that's authentic and rooted in passion and that takes hold. There's no phony baloney there. And I think that that's the same goes for actors. The same goes for musicians. If you are authentic about what you do, you do it with passion. You do it well. I'm not trying to say that. You know going on and and doing a comedy act about demure and mindful is the same as the work that would go into You know becoming a pianist But the point is is you will find an audience you'll find an audience that cares about what you do and how you do it And then you've got to keep them.
That's a whole separate bag of tricks. I I think that's so true I you know I've always felt that there's so many people on social media who Want to be vulnerable want to show you their whole lives like I would find that so fucking annoying to do all the time And i'm almost jealous of people You That could do that, like always pull out their phone and share whatever they're doing at that moment.
Um, but then you look at somebody like, a great example in my opinion is Eminem. Right, like he showed you this other side, he kind of, He said a lot of shit that was very taboo and he, he kind of emptied his soul out, uh, at the, at the expense of himself. He's like, all right, this could go either way. And I think that what you said, that, that sense of like real passion and wanting to share yourself and like your ideas with people.
I think that goes a long way with people. And you hear it in, you hear it in music. You see it on camera when people are doing certain things. Yeah. But the playbook is different for everyone. I think, you know, if someone like, and again, back to timing, right? We, one of the themes so far in our conversation today has been around these like tranches of time and as things change and as things evolve, so does the way people consume and with the way they pay attention, but the commonality is.
People will always consume content, media, artistry, creativity created by others who are authentic and passionate, but each playbook is different. So if Eminem emptied out and then went into recluse mode, well, great. He's still, he will still be an icon, you know, forever. Somebody who's sharing their day, as you put it.
But as reaching millions and millions of people icon forever, maybe yes. No, I don't know. That'll be for society to determine, but they're still emptying out a different way. And I'm sure many of them would tell you that it's really stressful, right? It's really stressful for someone who's built a business and a sort of social persona based on telling you what they're doing all day, every day, and making sure they keep it interesting.
Can't forget the post. They kind of have to let it all hang out, but that's stressful too. So I'm not trying to compare Eminem to someone who's like, this is my get ready with me routine. But we are talking about reaching people in mass and monetizing it and doing it with a sense of authenticity and passion.
What do you think the future of, you know, because you're just as embedded as I am, what do you think the future of the online? fitness game is. Yeah. Um, it's, it's fascinating. So first and foremost, you know, back to common themes, this is, this is, this is, we did not invent the notion of working out by way of video content or audio content by way of a screen by in your own, in your own home, right?
Like my mom was working out with Richard Simmons in the eighties, rest in peace. My grandfather had these like Jack LaLanne workout. Pamphlets in his, in his, in his tool shed at his house. People have been doing this for a very long time. We, we and many others helped to change that game, adapt the game based on, you know, where the puck was going.
And I'm really proud of that way. I think we also did it in a way. That was super authentic, super creative. And we continue to hold ourselves to that every single day, evolving in different ways every single day. Where is it going? Listen, a lot of players emerged in the category over the past four years.
A lot have already disappeared. I think where it's going is a continued focus. On reaching customers in ways that they want to be reached, and a lot of that includes investing in tech. A lot of that includes investing in tech and AI so that you can actually help personalize that journey even more. One of the things that we've been talking about throughout is the fact that, you know, it really is on your own time in your own way.
You can't do that if you're not focused on a technical infrastructure and a data infrastructure that makes sure you are delivering the right thing to the right person at the right time. You know, there's a recent, uh, uh, research, uh, survey that came out that said that by 2030, That the quote app fitness business alone, so no equipment, no apparel, just apps will, you know, reach over 4 billion in, in, in subscription revenue and, and, and market value.
You know, you hold that up to, you know, a Disney market cap or something, and that's peanuts, but you know, in 2023, it was around 1. 5 billion, right? So for every hater out there, who's, you know, read an article or said, you know, digital fitness is dead or whatever, that's not true. What happened during the pandemic was we the pendulum swang in one direction so quickly and so sharply and now it's evening out a little bit, but the way that it's evening out is it's actually allowed people to pick and choose what they want to do back to what I said earlier, a little in person, a little digital, maybe all in person, all digital.
But it is a bit of a buffet and it's amazing to see how people are consuming at that buffet. I still think a lot of people kind of judge it on the idea that like you only do this one thing, right? It's like saying you're only going to go to this one restaurant that you love every night of the week and it doesn't work like that.
I think people are, are working out more than ever before and you don't want to do the same thing every day. I have four different gym memberships. I go, To jujitsu. I like to go boxing every once in a while. I go to gym. You, I use my own gym, right? Like I want the variety because it keeps it interesting for me and it's something that I do every day.
So I want that variety. And I think more people are getting into that where it's like, I don't feel like going outside today. I'm going to go use my app. I'm not, I don't feel like going to do yoga today. I'm going to go lift and I think there's more people spending more on Fitness, whatever you want to call it, uh, you know, that What I like to consider hygiene, you know, I always tell people like, you know, wipe your ass brush your teeth Make sure you work out.
Those are the three things. I think everybody should be doing that. It's really good advice Ken, right? You're gonna save that. I forgot the first part. No, I agree. Listen, fitness, fitness, fitness as a business is not fickle. I think modalities are. Yeah I think that if somebody were to take, I'll pick on trampolines for a minute, if you were to take a Jump class Five days a week, you may get sick of it after a month.
You just might just a hunch. If somebody is strength training and they're doing the exact same, you know, set of squats, same reps, same cadence, same weight for a month, you're going to get sick of it. Variety matters. Back to your food analogy. It's the spice of life. So we've always wanted people to get fit, get healthy, not bored.
How do you do that? Variety. How do you do that? Embracing variety, keeping it interesting and also understanding that people are going to do other things, too. We want our members to do other things. We have the most incredible engagement that I have seen in this category. Frankly, our engagement has not changed much since the height of the pandemic.
As far as number of classes being taken per user per month. People love our content. We're so proud of that because it is such a premium, premium, premium variety filled, incredible talent concoction of, of, of an asset. But at the end of the day, you've got to switch it up. If you don't switch it up, you are going to get bored.
So for us, we want you to take 10 minutes yoga one day. We want you to take a 28 minute strength class. The next, why don't you take a little bit of boxing the next day. Like let's keep it moving. Find what you like. Weed out what you don't like, but mix it up. Yeah. No, I mean, part of the initiative with strong New York was why I invite all these other gyms and these brands is because I want my people to be like, Hey, you don't have to come to me every day.
I don't even want you to come to me every day. I want you to switch it up. I want you to go do dance class, go do yoga, go try out another gym. In your opinion, because you probably have access to a lot of gyms in the city. Why, aside from Rufat bringing you there, like what do you like about a smaller boutique gym?
Like mine versus going to, let's say, an Equinox or Lifetime. Um, that's a great question. And, and I am, I think, a prime example of, you know, where, where I see the puck going from a consumer behavior perspective. I work out with Obey two to three times a week. I see Rufat two to three times a week. And maybe I'll hit another gym.
Um, I, I don't mind a big gym. It's easy to get lost in a big gym. It's easy to feel like you are on your own, so to speak. And I think that, you know, if you know what you are doing, whatever that means, maybe you don't always feel that way at, at a larger gym. I think most people, Want to feel like they're part of something.
Most people want to be part of a community I think there's something extra potent and special about a fitness community About people that you're doing hard things with that. You're seeing eye to eye sort of in this like, you know sweaty Uh, uh, you know red faced panting can't catch your breath state It's very different from seeing someone at a party at a bar in the office.
The list goes on It's very special. I think your gym does that really well, has a really great community vibe, good brand vibe. I think the other thing that you do well and that I'm really proud of with Obey is embracing the brand and embracing almost a sense of nostalgia. You know, I walk into, uh, the Strength Club and I feel like I'm teleported back to my youth in a way.
People say that about obey to because of all the neon, they say, Oh, it feels like a, like an eighties video or it feels, you know, a little bit nineties or whatever. So other people, it feels like a, like the Drake video, um, hotline bling. But the point is that hearkens back to something else. And I think that's really cool specifically as it relates to fitness and movement and health because at the end of the day, that's very grounding.
Um, yeah. I love walking into the strength club and seeing like all of like the eighties and nineties like videos and images of musicians and all that stuff like with like, you know, rat or, you know, Megan the stallion playing in the background. Like, I think that vibe matters. You don't always get that at a large gym.
No knock on the large gym. I like a large gym too. Yeah. No, I mean, listen, I, I, I like when I'm traveling, I could go to a big box gym, but yeah, there is something like that. Just so corporate and dead about a big box gym. Cause they can't really put a kind of their own spin on it. And that's what I like about a smaller gym when I'm traveling.
I look for those smaller kind of boutique hardcore gyms like they'd like to call them. But one of the, one of the coolest quotes I ever heard is you don't know how important art is until you need it. Yeah. So for somebody building a brand, yeah, building out your logo, the way it feels, it looks, you mentioned the neon.
Yeah. I mean, and then the neon is, is, is a derivation from, you know, contemporary art more than it is any kind of like eighties, you know, uh, uh, but it gives people a certain feel. It gives people a feel. I mean, our, our aesthetic was really rooted in contemporary artists. Like. You know, Dan Flavin, like James Turrell, it's meant to sort of breathe with the workout and move with the workout and feel different with the workout.
It's meant to spark happiness, you know, especially if you're, if you're casting us, you know, onto a big screen, onto a flat screen at home, it's meant to fill that room up with light. It's a great way to start the day. And we took a lot of cues from that set. You know, our, our set is a, is a, is a rectangle, it is a box that is essentially a light box and it changes with each and every, you know, part of the workout.
That's part of what our control room does in the middle of the workout. They are literally working the lights according to the music. It's not in your face. It's not going to, you know, uh, cause an epileptic, epileptic attack of any kind. Although I'm not saying that with any kind of, uh, uh, medical cred, but the point is it's meant to make you feel good.
It's meant to make you feel a certain way. So to me, light matters, color matters, and that's informed, um, other parts of our brand too. Where do you, uh, Where do you see your brand going next with integration of like AI because everybody's where everybody's like AI. Yeah I still think it's so important for people to move To create community to be here.
It's like we can have the same conversation Over a computer screen, but it doesn't have the same effect. Yeah, clearly AI, you know for us has really been about creating a language model so that we can take a user type, what they're looking for, what they tell us on the way in, right? That, that, that onboarding survey, who they are, what they want to do, how they want to move and how we can match it up with other people like them that have been a success story within our world, who have found the workouts that they want and how we can help better personalize that journey as a result.
Right? So the more and more information we have about an individual Or types of individuals and the classes they take the classes that resonate them the class is that they like it helps us then deliver that a similar style of classes similar program that's very personalized to both that user and a new user and that gets better and better over time.
So from an AI perspective, I think we're in early days, but right now it's letting us. Personalize the journey that much more. So for example, if you came on, we shouldn't be, this is just a hunch. Maybe I'm wrong. We shouldn't be serving you dance cardio. I mean, although maybe you love dance cardio and you love a kickball chain.
We'll have to look at maybe that's a while. But if that's what we brought you and that's not what you were looking for on day one, You might leave us. Yeah, yeah. You might say, this isn't for me. This isn't what I thought. If we brought you, you know, our gym program that you can do in your home with, you know, weights varying from 15 to 30 pounds, and that's exactly what you wanted, and we knew that based on that language model, we're in a different, we're in a different, different playing field.
So that's where AI has really helped us. Who have you seen do it really well with the at home training? Aside from you, obviously you're doing everything you think you should be. I think that we, from a home base of variety, of personalization, of incredible caliber of workout and talent for everybody, literally everybody, I think we do it best.
I'm a little bit biased. Yeah, obviously. I, I, I'm intrigued, um, by companies like future companies that have created a scalable personal training product. And again, it helps people stay accountable. It helps people go on a personalized journey. It helps them stay connected. Um, so companies like that, I really like, and I think there's a lot of opportunity there for AI, because in those situations you have, you know, an individual human, which is a little bit more challenging to scale.
Yeah. Not so not so forgiving from a margin perspective on, you know, what, what, what the company's earning after all that, I think AI can help as a buffer to, you know, smooth out that communication and probably create some efficiencies along the way, along with that human. So I'm intrigued by that. There was a, there was one, what Chris, what was the basketball player's name?
The guy from, uh, Ryan's buddies with him. Yeah. Steve Nash. So Steve Nash had started, it. A, um, an online, what block I think it was called. Did you hear about that? I don't know about block. Yeah, they were like pushing, pushing, pushing. They were doing all this stuff and then they kind of just fell off there.
I could probably, if I really thought, yeah, I could probably think of two or three other brands. I thought you might've heard of them, but like, Where do you think people, I mean, do you think they just kind of gave up on the market or, you know, they saw the writing on the wall and they didn't think it was that, you know?
Well, I mean, depending on when, when, when Block came out and I can't speak to them specifically. Yeah, I think, I think it's been a, this is why I'm so happy that, you know, we launched in 2018. post pandemic or middle of pandemic products have had trouble finding traction, right? I mean, it's a super, super populated market.
Um, cost of finding new subscribers is very high. Cost of acquisition is high. There's a lot of streaming services out there in general, whether it is general entertainment or sports or fitness vying for your attention. There are a lot of other things out there vying for your attention. buying for the attention of your wallet.
So I think that a lot of the newer folks coming out without a very specific point of view, point of differentiation. I'm not saying that's blocker and I know nothing about block. It's harder to find that traction in this market. We came to the market with a very specific point of view as far as getting people up and moving.
Wherever they are, whoever they are, and really specifically for women, too. I mean, we really found a an audience in our female demographic, our demographic who is the CEO of her household and whether that's a household of one or a household of ten, you know, she's got to find time for her, her health, her family's health.
She's making a lot of the health decisions in that household, too. And we wanted to really create a place for her to do what she needs to do to live her best life so that she can then go forward in her own professional and personal life as well. Is that how you came, like, how'd you come up with that avatar?
Was that who naturally? I mean, that's who naturally gravitated towards the pro. I mean, we have men too, but, but it's primarily female demographic. Um, I don't think that that's a coincidence, though. I think if you look back to what Ashley and I did in TV, a lot of those markets, a lot of those key demographics were women.
You know, if you sold a show to Bravo, Food Network, HGTV, and then you looked at ratings the next day, this old school thing of ratings, what you cared about the most were, The female demographics or an age bracket within, within the female demographic, because that's who advertisers cared about back to that CEO of the household comment, advertisers wanted to reach her because she was deciding if, if she was buying her daughter, Nike cleats or Adidas cleats, and she was deciding if she was buying bounty paper towels or seventh generation.
Right? So she's very, she's very important, but it's also underserved. So she's the one putting everybody else's oxygen masks on. Right. Yeah. For real. Cool. oxygen mask and rarely finds the time to put on her own. And that's a really stressful place to be. And so if we can help her find that time to move, to do her thing, to learn, to exert, to get stronger based on her schedule, her needs, her wants, depending on the day, the week, the place.
The, the, the month, then we're doing our job. Yeah, no, I think it's super important to actually know who your clientele is and how to service them the best. And one of the important things that I always say, it's like knowing their problems just as Yeah, as important as knowing their wants. Yep. No, for sure.
I mean, my, my business partner, Ashley is a great example, right? She's got three kids like it's you know, she she very Gracefully and flawlessly balances the responsibilities of family life with with what we have going on with our work responsibilities But that's an example of someone who in between all of it is like, Oh, wait, I also need to work out.
I also need to move. I also need to stretch. I also need to breathe. And I think that that's a prime example of where our products sort of fits seamlessly into an individual's life in between work, in between soccer pickup, in between zoom meetings, in between meetings in the city. Um, and I'm, we're really proud of that.
No, it's a stressful thing. I mean, I watch my sister. She's, Got four kids, she goes to the gym every morning at 5 a. m. You know, she has a full time job. I think that avatar is so important. And like you said, it's underserved because they have so much shit on their plate. So it's very hard to service them.
Totally. But for guys like us, I mean, I know there's some people out there who are probably watching. They're like, this guy looks incredible. Oh, come on. For a 40 plus year old. 40 plus. What is your regimen? And one of the, and one of the questions that has been such a hot topic for us is, I said, I was filming a video with my buddy the other day after we filmed the podcast and somebody had asked me, they were like, do you wash your feet in the shower?
And I was like, no, I don't think I ever have. Not really. Right. But I have, but I have, but I said, gross feet. So the caveat is my feet are gross. I haven't worn sandals in 20 years. I think it's so, I would offend you weird. Yeah. Uh, you know, and I'm, I'm jealous of like guys who can just like let it all hang out in their flip flops.
That's and most guys have gross feet. Yeah. I'm not like a foot person. So I don't even stare at feet, but, but for all the feet people out there, you definitely don't want to see mine unless you're a total pervert. So, but what I had said, cause clearly you're obviously more groomed. You take care of yourself, but not my feet.
That's so that's the thing. So that's like the running joke amongst my friends. So like Mark, you. care so much about your appearance. You're this, you're that. Your feet are disgusting. Like give, give your feet a little TLC. So do I wash them? How about this? I don't not wash them. Yeah. I'm just not like sitting on a bench in the shower with a brush and a bar, a dial and some cuticle clippers trying to figure it out.
I had made the mistake and I said, I go, the guy who asked me was a gay guy. And I was like, well, you're really well groomed, you take better care of yourself than I do. I was like, that's why you wash your feet. Oh, so he's the foot washer. Yeah, and he's the type, and he's like, yeah, of course I wash my feet.
I'm like, I don't. And then I've been surveying people who come into the gym, guys, girls, every girl's like, I wash my feet. Some of the guys who said yes, happen to be gay guys. And I'm like, all right, well, yeah, clearly you take way better care of yourself. What's the reaction when you ask people if they wash their feet?
Most guys, right? Doesn't matter what their orient, whatever they are, background or whatever. Most guys are like, well, the water kind of runs down and goes in between my toes. Yeah, that's how I feel. That's how I feel. That's what I said. But, if I were at a, back to big box gyms, if I were at a gym and I were to have to go take a shower.
Yeah, that's probably the only time I wear sandals. And I didn't have sandals. It would be on my mind. That would gross me out. By the way, I feel bad for the person who gets in the shower after me, because of my gross feet. So maybe I shouldn't care. I was at the bathhouse the other night, and I had lost a pair of sandals.
And I was like, I gotta go get a pair of sandals because I can't walk around here barefoot. Barefoot, my feet are, yeah, you've been, yeah, no, but I, but everybody's like, Oh, you don't wash your feet. I'm like, listen, I am conscious of where I'm walking and I tell her all the time, I go, you're fucking gross.
Cause she'll walk around the city. Which just sandals on I go to see I would yeah, but I wouldn't walk I would not walk Yeah, but I wouldn't walk around the city with sandals. Thank you. That's weird, too It's so gross. She also did Chris Lee also doesn't wear using baby wipes. I'm a big baby wipe guy I can't wipe my ass without baby.
I You know, I'm not a baby white person and I care deeply about cleanliness, but I'm me too A baby wipe person. Because you guys don't have hair on your ass, right? You shouldn't have. I think that they smell weird, a lot of them. The baby wipes. Yeah, I think they smell weird. And I feel like they're not supposed to, making this up, but enter like the general plumbing, Sewers.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's true. I think that that I get the flushable ones. I carry them around in my bag Yeah, God, I'm just worried about my ass. So that's what you ask people on the podcast So they wash their feet and if they use a baby wipe, yeah, but you so you got like a cleanliness thing Yeah, I do and I don't or you don't yeah, but you got a fix.
I'm the type of guy I go to the shower I if I take a shower, especially after like jiu jitsu or something. Yes, I have to get off. It's like gross Eight different people were sweating all over me. Yep, but i'm like i'm still the most important thing I gotta wash my my junk and I gotta wash underneath my arms and my ass other than that.
I really didn't touch my feet Yeah, like we were talking So this is controversial fucking great hair. You have great, you know, i'm looking up at the hair's a little come on Hair's a little greasy right now, but thank you. No, it looks good. So no, I wash my yes. Yes Me and you have talked about this. I wash my hair like Once a month.
No, once a week. Really? But that's kind of gross. Yeah. I mean it gets wet every day. I take two showers a day. Like this is non negotiable. I take two showers a day. I love a long hot shower. Me too. Not great for your skin. But I don't use shampoo and conditioner on those. Shower trips. It's once a week. Yeah.
No, I like the oil. We talked about ways your hair down like a good way Sometimes it gets a little too greasy But if I wash it every day, it's it gets dry. Yeah, it looks like shitty. It's creepy So now what's your do you have a skin regimen because you were just talking about my skin? Uh, not real I'm, not a sun person.
I don't go in the sun I wear sunblock every day. Um, I use a moisturizer that I've used forever by like SkinCeuticals. That's it. I think, I think putting all this stuff on your skin is a little bit, uh, overdone. Yeah, I think it's a little snake oily. I don't think it's real. I think there's probably some good products that, that can be helpful, but I think A little moisturizer without too many chemicals in it.
It's an SPF and you call it a day. I see so many people who have the worst skin who are like, yeah, but I wash my face. I'm like, stop washing your face. Well, yeah, I don't really, I mean, I wash my face in a really specific and weird way. I wash my face only around the nose and at the temples. That's just my own weird thing.
Didn't come from a doctor. That's what I do. If I wash my entire face Well, it looks like it's fucking working. If I wash my entire face, it gets red, pink. It, like, strips everything down. So, I've had a couple people in that world say, calm down on washing your face. You really don't need to do it. Yeah, no, I, I think whatever the fuck you're doing, keep on.
Thank you. Yeah. And I see my dermatologist once in a while. Okay. For a little check in. You And now how often do you see your regular doctor? Did I set you up with my doctor? I did. We spoke on the phone. I had this other doctor, so I'm going to stick with them for a little while, but she was, she was really good, really interesting.
Um, I see my regular doctor, I think like twice a year. Um, physical blood work. Yeah, I do blood work with a different doctor four times a year. And how, how's it going? Your blood work. It's good. I mean, it's because there's a huge drop. Oh, I just saw this thing the other day And it was freaking me. What do you age the most at age 44?
Yes. I know. Oh my god Are we both getting served the same shit on my radar? Yeah, it's like 60 and 44. No, I know it gave me something to panic about totally It was such a kick in the dick for me. I'm like, yeah, do I only have two years left? Yeah, I I felt that way when I turned 39, 40, I felt like everything changed.
Um, and maybe that was just owning, running a business. Like I look at pictures of when we started the company and I look at pictures now and I'm like, what, you know, what, what has happened here? But, um, the 44 thing freaked me out. The blood work thing, every time I get it taken, it's a sheer panic waiting for the results, you know, because that's where they find.
Um, You know the stuff that you don't want here, but now we're at that age where it's critical Yeah, right like you didn't I didn't worry about that shit. You're 25 30. Yeah, 35 Yeah, you get to 40. You're like, oh, holy shit. Like yeah shits really happening Yeah, and one of the things I noticed within the last six months was I'm out of a restaurant.
I think we were Me and her were out one night and I'm looking at the menu and I'm like, fuck, I can't see the goddamn menu. Yeah. So now I got my phone out and now I'm like, I look like my father. Oh yeah. You got like the flashlight on your phone. Oh, but now it's been like that. God bless Kenny. Um, yeah, no, but that, I mean, listen, that's, that's, that's what happens.
Yeah. You know, who's that dude who's like biohacked his way into. You know, he's like 50 going on 23 or whatever. It looks like shit. That's like a vampire. So I, I mean, yeah, he is like a little, he is a little like see through. Um, but who wants to live that way? I, yeah, that's what I said. Who wants to live that way?
Now you're doing too much shit. Now it's interfering with you actually living a better life. The thing that, the thing that is, has changed the most for me is I used to be able to go out at night. Go to dinner, have drinks, whatever, and sleep like a baby. And now I go, if I go out to dinner and I have a couple of drinks, there's no sleep between 3am and 6am.
I'm up. I'm panicked. Yeah. I cannot meditate my way or manifest my way into a sleep. It's a problem. So I think the lifestyle habits need to change as you told her for sure. Yeah. No, you, you definitely feel it. Well, listen, Mark, Thank you so much for being on. Yeah. It was an absolute pleasure. You have some great insights.
I'm so glad you guys got to hear them. Where could everybody check you out and find out everything more about. Yeah. So we're at obey fitness. com or check us out in the app store, Apple or, uh, or Android, uh, OBE. It's an acronym for our body electric. So OBE fitness. Um, and I'm on Instagram, not that you want to follow, but the Mark Millett on Instagram and I mean, who doesn't want to follow guys.
Thanks so much for stopping by. Uh, like, subscribe, share, do all the things, and I hope to see you guys again very soon. Cool. That was great. Thanks. That was good. Yeah, of course. Alright. Dude, that was awesome. Yeah.