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Smart people talking about the theory, analysis, and practice of Canadian politics. Guests include political scientists, pollsters, journalists, and insiders. More thoughtful journalism from Energi Media.
Welcome to episode 1 of the political talks podcast. I'm journalist, Markham Hislop. Journalists are by nature curious people. Our favorite question is why. I ask energy experts why on our energy talks podcast all the time.
Markham:We often talk about energy politics, but non energy poll political stories pop into my inbox or my social media timelines every day that also make me ask why. And I bet they may make you ask why. And that's the premise behind this podcast. Others can report about what, where, when, and who, but I wanna ask why. And to help me understand why younger generations hate baby boomers, my generation, I'm joined by my good friend and Canada's best columnist, Max Fawcett of the National Observer.
Markham:So welcome to political talks, Max.
Max:You are too kind as always. Thank you for having me, and and, I look forward to discussing the why here.
Markham:Yeah. Okay. Let's let's get it out of the way. Why why why are younger generations and, you know, when I you've written columns about this, about your problem with boomers, and and I see you making comments on, on Twitter slash x, on a regular basis. So I don't know.
Markham:Why? Tell me why. Explain explain to us, old codgers, why.
Max:Sure. I've been I've been taking issue with boomers probably for as long as I've been taking issue with anything as a writer. I gosh. It must have been almost 20 years ago now. Pitched a book to a publisher where I the conceit was I was gonna put the baby boomers on trial, for their various crimes, not realizing or not fully appreciating that both the publisher and my editor were both baby boomers.
Max:So, ultimately, they did not think that was a good idea. I think the book would have done really well, but, the the point is I've always been a little bit frustrated, with the boomers. I I'm certainly not alone. Some of that, I guess, or I'm sure is is kind of eatable tension. Right?
Max:You always, have some frustrations with your parents, and and and I think that's part of it. But a bigger part of it is just, I think the frustration that a lot of young people have with how easy it seems like the boomers had it compared to the way we do. And I think that's especially acute if you grew up in places like Vancouver or Toronto. You know, I grew up being told stories of of my parents buying houses in Vancouver for, you know, $50, 000. And and even if you adjust that for inflation, you know, it's probably, a tiny fraction of what those houses actually cost today.
Max:So they're just there are material advantages that boomers had throughout the course of their their life, you know, whether it was buying houses cheaply, whether it was, you know, entering into their peak earning years right as the biggest bull market in stocks was about to begin or the biggest bull market in bonds was about to begin. They both sort of began almost simultaneously. It's just a lot of headwind or a lot of tailwinds rather that boomers have enjoyed that my generation, you know, gen xers and millennials, have had to deal with more as headwinds. And and a lot of the pushback that I get on this, and I've, you know, I've certainly gotten pushback from my mom, it is that this is sort of a generational analysis. And and in individual cases, it's not it's not that it's not that true, you know, especially for women, you know, women boomers.
Max:Things were not easy for them. They dealt with all kinds of shit. You know, whether it was, you know, toxic masculinity, whether it was sort of just low grade constant, sexual harassment, you know, inequity in the workplace. Boomer women did not enjoy the same spoils as boomer men. So I've sort of updated my critique to really kind of 0 in on on with all with all due apologies people like you, you know, Boomer men, heterosexual Boomer men who really did enjoy a lot of these a lot of these tailwinds.
Max:But I I think, ultimately, the reason for the critique is not to to make you feel bad or to make you a tone or apologize or anything like that, and, of course, we know you won't. But just to kinda generate some sense of empathy for what young people are going through today. And, you know, I see this with with the polls right now, and, you know, you see young people in Canada really kind of tilting towards the conservatives. And I hear a lot of older folks, a lot of boomers saying, I you know, how could they do that? How could they vote for a party that, you know, doesn't support climate change or doesn't support childcare or doesn't support x y zed?
Max:And I have to tell you or I have to tell them it's because the conservatives are the only party who's actually speaking to their frustrations around cost of living, around housing, and around sort of the the inequities that they face as a generation. It's the only party that is meeting them where they have been for some time now, and that explains why, yeah, they're ready to to to pull the flush lever on on the Liberals for despite, you know, all these these views and values that conservatives have that maybe don't line up with them. It's enough that they're being heard, and there's a lesson there, I think, for the progressives in Canada.
Markham:Well, I'm very pleased to learn that your mom took issue with your analysis. Your mom's a smart lady. I I like I like Leslie. Yeah. We're we're I don't I've never met her, but we were friends on on Facebook, and I see her posts all the time.
Markham:And and she really she's a dog person. I mean
Max:Of course. You're both Boomer. You're both Boomers. So but you're both on Facebook. It makes perfect sense.
Markham:Okay. Yeah. Okay. Here's I don't know how how to argue with that. I mean, except to say that your complaints about the older generation, sound a lot like the ones that my generation made in the sixties seventies, because my parents' generation, the ones who were born in the 19 twenties, maybe the 9 early 19 thirties, went through the great depression, went through the great war.
Markham:You know, there was plenty of struggles in the, you know, after post war and in into the fifties, and and their life wasn't all that great. So but they were they were very conservative in many ways, and and we wanted change. You know, the kids, we were we were listening to rock and roll and, you know, the even you admit the seventies had great music.
Max:Fantastic. Fantastic music. Fantastic culture.
Markham:And and it was all about change. We wanted to be different than our parents. We wanted we didn't wanna be restricted by the morays and the morals of the, you know, pre 60 period. The and religion played a big a big part in that. We wanted to be freed from the structures of of religion.
Markham:We wanted to figure stuff out on our own. Make be free to do what we wanted to do. And it's it's distressing to me to see that those radicals and activists of the sixties seventies have now turned into the gray haired old doddering, you know, dudes in the back booth at Tim Hortons complaining about the same things my parents complained about. Sure. I don't know.
Markham:Is there something universal in this? Is this just the way, you know, the cycle of life?
Max:Yeah. I mean, I think everyone gets more conservative as they get older, which, I mean, if you look at sort of the political values of young people today, that that might be a little terrifying down the road because they're they're starting off certainly, I think, more more conservative than than the boomers did. You know, I think 2 things come to mind there. 1 thing is your parents' generation went through some shit. Right?
Max:They fought in the war. They they endured the great depression. Like, they had a reason, I think, to be a little fucked up, and a lot of them were. I don't think your generation has the same excuse. You kind of came of age when, you know, free love was happening, and there's all this great culture, and, you know, you could go and move to downtown Vancouver or Toronto or where San Francisco and be a hippie and fart around and and then become a successful professional, like there was no student debt, houses were cheap.
Max:Like, you you guys kinda grew up in in in the the sweet spot of history. And so it's a little a little different from that perspective. The other thing that's different is, you know, I think the reason why you were able to to enjoy those things, and I, you know, I would have done the same thing where I in your position, is because the the stuff below you on the the Maslovian hierarchy of needs was taken care of. You didn't really I mean, obviously, people had to worry about shelter and worry about, income. You know, it's not like it's not like you've banished poverty in the sixties, but I think it was easier to be upwardly mobile, to be middle class, to to build a life, you know, to come from somewhere else and and and try to build something than it is today.
Max:I think it I mean, it's demonstrably true that it that it was easier back then, and, and so you had the freedom to sort of experiment with these other planes of existence. Right? Whereas young people today, I think, don't really have that luxury. I mean, we we have other luxuries. You know, we have pocket computers that can tell us anything at a glance.
Max:We have, you know, we have amazing food and and beverages that, you know, you guys did not experience. I mean, you can get a bottle of wine at the liquor store for $15 right now that's better than probably anything you could get your hands on, in the sixties. But
Markham:Can confirm.
Max:Can confirm. So so I I try not to be blind to the privileges that we have, and take them for granted. Obviously, 1 of the big ones is if you're a person of color, if you're a, you know, a person from the LGBTQ community, obviously, there are still battles to fight, but there are far fewer than there were, back in the sixties seventies. You know? The the the degree and extent of racism, sexism, homophobia is a lot lower now than it was back then.
Max:So those are those are all good things. But, you know, the on on things like housing, on things like cost of living, on on things like tuition, education, all that stuff, it it just feels a lot harder, than it did back then. And and I think that is where the sort of seed of resentment comes from. And so, you know, when folks like me go out and suggest, hey. Maybe we should tax the capital gains in people's principal residences because there's a lot of people who bought houses in Vancouver and Toronto and and didn't do anything to them other than, you know, paint the walls, what have you, and are now sitting on million you know, more than $1, 000, 000 in capital gains that will that that won't be taxed.
Max:And to see the boomers sort of lash out against that, it kinda pisses people like me off because, like, you didn't do anything to earn that. It's you won the lottery of of time and chance and, and demographics, and and maybe it's time to pay it forward a little bit. And it does feel like that spirit of paying it forward is not as present as it could be.
Markham:We'll get to that in a minute. I I you and I first met roughly around 2015. You were the editor managing editor at Alberta Oil Magazine, and, and you were my 1st editor. No. That's not true.
Markham:You were my second, at at a magazine. Yeah. Way back a while, it you may not know this, but how I got into this business is in 1985, I turned my, my graduate work, about farm technology in Saskatchewan into a column in the western producer. They had a they had a people I know it was some kind of a magazine, and my column was called farm tech and times. It went for a couple of years, 500 words, you know, a photo from the archives and some story about tractors or combines or whatever it was.
Markham:And I was it was fun. It was fun to write. And and I think people liked it. It had a fairly a fairly good following. So you were my second editor.
Markham:But I have had the privilege to watch dapper clothes horse Max evolve over the over a decade into middle aged dad, Max. Yeah. The wonderful family. I'm fabulously fond of your wife, Jerry, and and you have this wonderful little son, Everett, who's now I think he's just about 3. And Yep.
Markham:My god. You're following in my footsteps. You're be you are becoming a boomer. And no doubt, if we have this conversation in 20 years, you'll sound just like I do today. I'm I'm quite convinced of that.
Max:I I would be a hypocrite if if I didn't I'm not not saying if I sounded like you, but if I wasn't at least aware of becoming the thing I used to criticize. So I hope in 20 years, if we're talking about some sort of tax policy that affects me negatively but affects young people positively, Maybe it's a robot tax, that that I will support the position that helps young people, not not helps me and my generation.
Markham:Don't you dare tax my flying car, young man.
Max:Well, we'll we'll see about that. But, yeah. I don't know. I I it's possible. I'm a cert you know, I'm certainly I have become more of a pro homeowner as I became a homeowner.
Max:You know, III still think renting has all sorts of advantages. I still think that we we worship real estate in ways that are unhealthy and unproductive, but I understand that the joys of owning a home, of having your own property, of of, you know, creating your own little space in the world. I just don't think that the people who are at the top of the ladder should be pulling it up behind them, and it feels that way sometimes right now. And and and I you know, there are you know, it's funny. Whenever I criticize boomers, I get I get all the, like, best boomers in my feet being like, hey, man.
Max:I'm not like that. And I'm like, no. No. You're not. You're not like that.
Max:There are definitely outliers, but but from a generational perspective, that's always gonna be a bit of a broad paintbrush. There is a bit of a selfishness problem, with the boomers when it comes to public policy. You know, they didn't pay their full pensions. Right? You you know, for for a lot of your working life, you were not paying in, enough to keep the Canada Pension Plan solvent, and it was the federal Liberals who fixed that in the late nineties.
Max:But the way they fixed it was by making my generation and people younger than me pay more than you had to. We're happy to do it, you know, like or maybe we're not happy to do it, but we'll do it. But we would just like some some acknowledgment and understanding of that. And and, you know, maybe part of that is in, you know, the federal day care program. Obviously, your generation did not have access to that, and I see a lot of boomers supporting it.
Max:So that's good. That's that's a form of, of intergenerational reconciliation. I just think we need to we need to have a little more of that.
Markham:Listening to you, you've mentioned a couple of policies, and some of them are, you know, work to your generation's advantage and advantages like day care, and some work to mine, like the changes to the the Canada Pension Plan. But the overwhelming message that I'm getting out of this conversation is is is the intergenerational reconciliation. Like, stop crapping on gen xers and millennials, boomer boomers, and and acknowledge that there are challenges that need to be addressed through public policy that aren't big. Stop pulling up the ladder and and lecture, you know, lecturing, you you know, younger Canadians and and lend a helping hand. Lean down.
Markham:Do do what you can. That's what I'm hearing. Is that fair?
Max:Yeah. That's fair. I mean, I I mean, certainly, it wasn't it wasn't boomers that were sort of, like, most at risk during COVID, but I think COVID was, like, another reminder of how young people often get asked just to make sacrifices for older people. You know, a lot of, you know, a lot of people, you know, had lost their jobs. They didn't get to see their friends and family, and we were doing that ostensibly to protect those most vulnerable, in society.
Max:And it would be nice if that mindset was also applied by the by boomers and other older Canadians to other issues. Right? So I think of climate change. Right? You look at at the polling around climate and and, you know, where various demographics rank it in their their priorities.
Max:And hate to say it, but climate starts to go down the older you get. And that's because older folks aren't gonna have to reckon with the worst effects of climate change. It would be really nice if more boomers kinda lent us their votes on that issue and said, you know what? Maybe this isn't gonna impact me personally, but it will affect my kids and grandkids or younger younger generations. And so I'm gonna make this more of a priority than it feels like it should be for me.
Max:That doesn't happen right now. I would love to see that happen. You know, that that sort of intergenerational alliance, on on issues that are more important to younger people. I've I've and this will never happen, by the way. But I've always thought it would be interesting if people got I don't know what the number is, but, like, 10 votes over the course of their life, And they got to decide when they use them in federal elections.
Max:So if you use them all up when you're younger, you don't get to vote when you're older. If you save them, then you do. I there just needs you know, we we have this sense that people are entitled to vote for as long as they live, but we're not gonna give 16 year olds the vote. Right? And, you know, that's an issue that I I've always supported lowering the voting age to 16.
Max:If we let them drive cars, we should let them vote. But maybe we should have some thought on the other end of the spectrum as well.
Markham:Okay. Let's talk about the social contract. This idea that, you know, when you're you're younger, we all sacrifice. And, frankly, I grew up with the idea of a social contract. Right?
Markham:Medicare came in in 68, and and I was 9 years old at the time, and so it was part of my life, the idea that I would pay taxes that would support people, people's pensions, people's health care, older the older generation's health care. And when the time came, it would be there for me, and the younger generation would shoulder that burden, and it would be there for them when when they got older. And I have to tell you, you know, as somebody you know, I've I've been run over by by drunk drivers, and I've got, you know, a couple times and and had some surgeries. And so my health is not as robust as it once was. I'm not the the, you know, fit young Markham of of his of the 20 of when I was 20, but and it it it breeds a certain vulnerability in you.
Markham:Mhmm. A certain sense of you're not as strong. You're not as resilient. You're not as able to resist. You're a little worried, frankly.
Markham:And I know that there are folks in my generation who worry that the health care system is going to hell in a handbasket just as they need it. You know? What happens if I have a heart attack or a stroke and the ambulance isn't there and I get I got to go to an ER that's, you know, 4 times capacity, and I don't get in, and and I croak in a hallway on a gurney. That kind of thing. Those are real concerns, and and I wonder if that anxiety doesn't breed some of the conservatism and some of the resentment, towards younger generations that we're talking about.
Max:Possible. But I think you would I well, I don't I'm not gonna speak for you. I wonder if you would agree with this. You know, if if the Liberals or or some imaginary government floated a, a health care premium that would go directly to the health care system, I'm pretty sure those older boomers will be the same people that would be instantly complaining about taxes. Right?
Max:About god damn government making us pay more taxes. And and, like, the reason why our health care system is under stress right now is is just its demographic map. We have far more older people who use far more in health care services than we used to, and we haven't adjusted our our tax structure to reflect that. This was I mean, I remember people warning about this 20 years ago, and we all kinda just
Markham:hand, like,
Max:hand waved it away. We're like, ah, we'll figure it out. And now we're in the middle of it. And and, honestly, the answer is either we we pump a bunch more money into the health care system or we find ways to sort of reduce or streamline services. And and, you know, I I think part of the reason why young people are more open to talking about private involvement in our health care system is because they understand that if that's not the case, they're gonna be asked to pay a higher and higher share of these health care costs.
Max:And the you know, that's money that isn't going to education, that it's money that isn't going to childcare, it's money that isn't going to climate policy, whatever it might be. It's going to a generation that didn't self fund their their own health care. Right? They didn't pay enough in taxes over the course of their lives to cover this. And, there are people out there who are gonna exploit that wedge.
Max:Right? I've I've long counseled progressives to find a better line to retreat behind than just, you know, public health care or bust because I really do think at some point it will bust.
Markham:Let's talk about climate change because, an Angus Repole came. No. Sorry. This is that's not true. It it was a, Frank Graves and Eco's research.
Markham:And and Frank does a lot of work on misinformation and conspiracy theories and how that plays out in the various age groups in and political, parties in Canada. And I think consistently, he's been flagging that, you know, for a number of years now, that it's conservatives and older older folks who are, like, way out there on you know, if you're older than 65, you probably vote PC, belong to the CPC party, and you believe in some really you you know, you are not your political views are not grounded in evidence. They're not grounded in fact. They're, you know, they've you've got your ideas off a from a YouTube wacko or you or social media, you know, or your buddies in at Tim Hortons or whatever. But there is a very, very large percentage of CPC voters according to Frank, who believe basically in a conspiracy theory oriented view of the world.
Markham:And if I were you or somebody, younger, I'd be looking at that and going, maybe you shouldn't have the vote.
Max:Yeah. I mean, I think I think the Frank's research is very striking for those who haven't seen it. It, you know, it's a it's a chart where basically it correlates, it creates a score, a misinformation score, and then shows what the national vote is based on people who scored that score. And, you know, at the very top where the people don't believe in any misinformation, liberals are ahead or near ahead. And then as you go progressively down the scale of more misinformation, the the blue bar just keeps getting thicker and thicker and thicker and thicker, which means, you know, the the people who are most misinformed in the country, almost all of them vote conservative or PPC.
Max:And it's a huge problem. You know, these these are folks that are getting all their information off of Facebook or worse. They are not engaged with reality, and it's really hard for the rest of us to kind of reach them and have conversations with them. And so, yeah, I look. III think it has always been thus to some extent that the older you get, the the, you know, the kind of less in touch you get with with the the conversations of the day.
Max:I'm sure there were lots of people in the sixties who believe things about hippies and drinking people's blood or something, you know, whatever it might have been. But the Internet has created this this this nuclear weapon of misinformation, and the ability to share it, to spread it, talk to create communities around it. And I think older brains are particularly susceptible to it because they they can't quite see the way in which they're being played. You know? I I no question that social media has broken younger people's brains, but it has broken older people's brains even more, I would submit.
Max:And I don't know how we get back from that, because we've basically given bad faith actors, this enormously powerful tool to make money, to create influence, to to alter political outcomes. And unless the tech companies are brought to heal, unless there there is some sort of regulation around that, I just don't think it's gonna change. You know, I I think we should teach young people in school critical thinking skills, like, really beef up their ability to detect truth from from falsehood, but that's not gonna show up in in in Frank's research, you know, if if he keeps doing it for 20 years. And we may not have 20 years to to to get this thing squared away.
Markham:I've been doing some interviews recently about libertarianism, authoritarian libertarianism, what, professor Duane Bratt calls radical populism. You know, a lot of this is around, premier Danielle Smith in Alberta, premier Scott Moe in Saskatchewan. They seem to be out on the on the extremes, of this stuff. But we are moving to, it would appear, and I think Frank would, you know, he flags us all the time, we're moving towards, a more and more authoritarian approach to government. And I don't know what, what, conservatives think about the federal leader, Pierre Poliyev, but if you read his Twitter feed, you certainly come away with that with that impression.
Markham:And are we just on a slippery slope to some sort of authoritarian dystopia? I often say, you know, I feel like I'm in the, you know, late twenties or early thirties in Germany. I'm a good German watching my my, you know, political culture circle the drain. And maybe that's, you know, being a little, a little, pessimistic, but but it does seem that we're on this slippery slope to authoritarianism of of some kind, some variety. What does the nonboomer generations think about that?
Max:Yeah. We're very worried about it, you know, particularly as it as it, as it comes to things like climate and and other policy issues. You know, I I think, you know, certainly, if you look at the United States, you look at our at recent elections here, it has been young people that have been pushing back against that, that have been voting, not with the sort of authoritarian, populists. But progressives made up I mean, progressive you know, the the the kryptonite for progressives is their smugness. Right?
Max:And and they and they made the mistake of thinking as they do on a lot of issues that that that these these battles were over. Right? That the war the war had been won. We didn't need to defend the idea of democracy. We didn't need to defend the idea of a liberal society.
Max:We didn't need to defend the idea of, you know, a a free and and respectful exchange of ideas. And so you had you had conservatives, you had authoritarian populace undermining it, attacking it, and we just ignored it. We're just like, well, that won't work. How could that work? Why would people prefer an authoritarian system over democracy?
Max:They would never do that. And, yeah, they would because at the end of the day, what people value more than the system is the outcome. Right? Peep people people don't vote for ideas or systems. They vote for outcomes.
Max:Right? And we live in a society right now, in a space where a lot of people really just wanna kick the ass of the people they don't like. Right? You know, Trump has been the read the appeal of Trump has been that he will be the vessel for people to kick the ass of the educated people, the smart people, the liberal elites. And And it doesn't matter that he's 1 of them, and he's not he's not educated, but he's or he's not smart, but he's, you know, he is from New York.
Max:He's not a middle America guy, but you can point out all the hypocrisy in the world. It doesn't matter. He is their vessel, and he will he will sort of be their their champion, you know, to to channel Game of Thrones. And so we we need to do a much better job as progressives of defending our ideas before they get defeated. You know, III look to the the federal Liberals on this where, you know, the the the carbon tax stuff.
Max:They kind of assume that if they threw a bunch of economists out there that that was it. They would be, you know, that things would be settled. And all of their their work and their arguments is under been undermined by this constant campaign of lying, bullshit, you know, misrepresentation of the facts, and it's working. Progressives have to stop bringing piss to shit fights because you don't win a shit fight with a barrel of piss, and that's what we've been doing. I think there's
Markham:metaphor I haven't heard before, but okay. Go on. Yeah.
Max:I mean, I mean, the the the other 1 is you don't bring what is it? You don't bring a pistol to a or a a knife to
Markham:a gunfight. Gunfight. Yeah.
Max:I I prefer the piss shit fight. But, anyways, the point being, like, you have to fight fight the fight that is in front of you. And so we have to do a better job of explaining, defending, campaigning on our values, and and not being suckers, in in the way we communicate these things. You know, you look at the conservatives in the way that they build these ecosystems around their ideas. They built these sort of false media companies that that simply exist to to propagate, what they believe.
Max:I I don't think that's the solution for progressives because, you know, we don't we're not as pliable and and kind of, we don't fall in line to the same extent. But we have to do a better job of fighting for our side, than we do.
Markham:Okay. That raises an interesting question because, if that's true, and, you know, the old fogies who are are are more conservative, reactionary, authoritarian, had plenty of time. They're retired or close to retired, and they're just, you know, devil makes work for idle hands. But I look at I look at your generation. My my my 2 kids are roughly your age, and, frankly, they're exhausted.
Markham:The the job of you know, 2 professional jobs plus raising children and all of the social responsibilities that go along with that and family responsibilities is all they can manage. I mean, you know, explaining anything to anybody in or even understanding it from their point of view, like turning on a newscast or reading a newspaper or reading a book is really hard. Like, I have watched my daughter. I don't know how she does it. I mean, she'd be down by 8 o'clock when the kids are in bed.
Markham:She just is ready to go to bed herself. She's just worn right out. I've I've all the sympathy in the world for her, and I imagine that the the majority of young parents, you know, and people your age, it's the same thing. So how do you if the if the old folks who were the the, the boomers who were the problem have lots of time, and they're they're healthier than ever. They have more energy than ever.
Markham:They're out riding their rebikes and keeping their cardio up.
Max:It's true. And and part of this is why I I think Pierre Poliyev's messaging is resonating with young people is because he makes it simple. Right? He doesn't he doesn't require people, to have, you know, the deep political understanding or economic understanding to know how carbon pricing works and know how this works and know how that works. He just gives them slogans and says, there you go.
Max:That's that's all you need to know. And for someone who is, you know, over you know, is working a job, has kids, and it just kind of they don't have time for politics. They certainly don't have time for politics as a hobby. That's good enough. Right?
Max:That that that that has made the entry point accessible for them. Progressives need to learn how to do that, how to make politics more accessible at the at the level where younger people and people sort of in their middle age can can engage with it without having to sort of mainline it into their into their veins. And, yeah, you're right. I think there's a lot of boomers who have turned politics into their hobby as in retirement, You know, the way they used to play tennis or do bridge, now they do Facebook. And, you know, that's that's a whole other, kettle of fish.
Markham:I'll tell you about an an event we had, back in, last month in Port Alberni, BC on the bank on Vancouver Island. Yeah. And that that was the a hotbed of the axe to tax program. And so, you know, you and I have had we've had interviews about carbon pricing. And and, I have you know, I've interviewed some of the economists, not just Mark Jackard and Trevor Thome and and others about it, but, you know, American and European, experts as well.
Markham:And there's plenty of nuance and complexity around carbon pricing or how you design, emissions reducing policy, your climate policies. It doesn't have to be as doctrinaire as, you know, a a carbon price and nothing else. And so what we did at this event is I went in and I did a presentation, and it basically argued that you we are squeezing carbon out of our economy. This is a competitive issue, an economic issue. And if we don't do it, we're gonna be at a competitive disadvantage in a very short period of time.
Markham:So the question isn't do we do nothing, the question is how do we do it? And if you don't like carbon pricing, that's fine. Whatever. I mean, people like Mark Jackart argue for flex regs and, you know, different approaches, regulation subsidies. You have but you can't do nothing.
Markham:You have to to make a choice to do something. But at the very end of it, we talked about how do we go about doing this? How do we have a conversation? And the consensus was, and certainly my opinion, is don't talk to the, you know, call them old fogies or the folks that are into conspiracy, the folks in the acts of tax campaign, you know, who are susceptible to that. Talk to your friends, talk to your neighbors, talk to your family, talk to your coworkers, engage them in conversations, share information, like, you know, that we imparted at this presentation, and do it that way.
Markham:We don't have to have a big fight with people who are never gonna listen to us anyway. And maybe that there's something in there, a kernel of truth for how we get out of the political morass we're in.
Max:I think so. You know, I I think, you know, the acts of the tax folks, the fight is what they want. That's their hobby. That's like going to, you know, 18 holes on a golf course for them. They love that shit.
Max:And, yeah, you're just you're just feeding their appetite. So you're not gonna change their mind. I think you're right. You know, if we view a lot of the stuff that that the bad bad information out there as sort of almost like a virus, you have to inoculate your friends and family against it. You have to give them a bit of a vaccine, and the vaccine isn't, you know, don't listen to these people or these people are crazy or, you know, what have you.
Max:It's just here's the information. Like, let's talk about the actual facts here so that when they encounter bullshit, they're a little more prepared for it and a little more able to go, well, wait a minute. That doesn't align with with what I talked to my, you know, my friend about or my cousin about. And, yeah, you know, talk to the people that are in your circle that that haven't been infected yet. You know, talk to the people that you know are reachable, and then encourage them to do it.
Max:Right? That that I think is the way to do it. And, you know, I give full credit to conservatives, in the realm of of community building. They're very good at community building. They're much better natural community builders than progressives who tend to be a little more lone wolfy, who tend to be a little more idealist or individualistic, and and don't really feel the need to kind of build these communities around them.
Max:We have to be doing that, if we're going to defend our ideas, defend our values, defend the things that matter to us. We can't just count on, well, you know, the CBC will take care of it or journalists will take care of it or government will take care of it. No. Because guess what? The the you know, folks like David Parker, they're coming for all of those institutions, and those institutions don't know how to defend themselves.
Max:So we have to build our own communities, but we have to kind of create this intellectual resilience where, you know, we can still have conversations that revolve around facts, revolve around evidence, revolve around what's best for the future. But that that requires work. I mean, in some some respects, you know, they talked about after the cold war, the the the west got this piece dividend, you know, where they didn't have to spend on defense anymore, and so they had all this money they could spend on on other things. And I think in some respects, we've kind of enjoyed a democracy dividend over the last few decades, where we haven't had to put the work in, to to defend the things that have kept us safe from from authoritarianism and misinformation and what have you. And now we gotta put the work in.
Max:So
Markham:Okay. Well, put that into it put that into a generational context because it surely, it can't be the boomers are are on the 1 side and all the other generations are are on the other side. It's it's more complex and and and difficult than that. So how if that's true, and I happen to agree with it, obviously, that, at as the Port Alberni event would attest, then how do we do how do we how do we approach this from a generational point of view?
Max:I, you know, I think young younger people I love that I can call myself a younger person, but younger younger people like me have to be open to the idea of older generations having wisdom and expertise to share, and be willing to ask for it and to learn from it. And I think by the same token, older generations have to be willing to share that, and pass it down and and create a kind of common interest, that we have, in building, you know, a future or even a near term that that suits both of us. Right? And I think it's it's very easy to get sort of sidetracked in resentments or conflict or what have you, but, I think keeping and and this is more for me than than for you and people in your position. Just remembering who the real, not not gonna say enemy, but remembering what the real project is, is important.
Max:It's, you know, it's easy to get distracted. And, of course, we we live in a world where the social media technologies that we all use are are literally coded to amplify and encourage conflict. Right? They don't like it when people agree. They don't like it when people get along.
Max:They don't like it when people find common cause. They like it when people, either argue or or join forces to attack someone else. And so, you know, I think I think that that is the thing that we we have to be mindful of struggling against.
Markham:So my I started off this this interview, Max, by with a sort of a tongue in cheek question about, you know, why do you hate the boomers? Why does your generation hate the boomers? And now that we've had, you know, 40 minutes or so of of, conversation here, I'm beginning to to look at this a little differently. In that, the ish there's a lots of frustrations, plenty of frustrations and resentments on, you know, between the generations. That's clear.
Markham:But there's a bigger issue at at stake here. The you know, we're talking about, in some ways, the survival of the country we built, the democratic institutions that we built. And this reminds me of an anecdote from a friend of mine who was an early Trump supporter in 2015 from Texas, And, and he was, I think, more of a democrat migrated over to the republicans. And, yeah, talking about Trump, he said, he's gonna burn he's gonna drain the swamp, and if he can't fix it, he's gonna burn it down burn it all down. That's, I think, common cause for all generations.
Markham:That would be a disaster if we burn all the institutions down and then think we're just going to rebuild them in the you know, snap our fingers, and we'll we'll build new ones. That takes generations, decades to build functioning, institutions that support a country like Canada. So if there's a common cause right there to to preserve the thing and improve the thing that we all should agree, leads to a higher quality of life for us, and and it starts with democratic principles, then maybe we make common cause between the generations, and and we begin to have those conversations within our networks as a a strategy. And we said, look. The work has to be put in.
Markham:We have we didn't do it in the past. We've kinda taken a couple decades off here, and, but now we gotta put our shoulder to the wheel again, get in the traces, and and get to work on this. And that includes your generation. It includes folks in my generation and and younger Canadians as well. And is is that fair to say then that given this is, you know, podcast is entitled political talks, that's the way we need to approach politics going forward?
Max:I think so. Yeah. I think I I don't think there's any point in relitigating the way things were. Right? Or or the the advantages that some people may have enjoyed, because that just creates resentments.
Max:And, of course, you know, the algorithms love resentment. They feed on it. Instead, we need to find as many people from both generations who are willing to be builders and and put them to work, at at doing the building. You know, I what worries me and maybe that, you know, maybe we can maybe generations in in Canada and United States can learn from Britain. But, you know, you look at Brexit, and there's a huge generational split there where you had a lot of boomers and a lot of older people voting for it because they realized on some level they didn't have to pay the cost.
Max:Right? It wouldn't really affect them. They didn't need to go to Europe, you know, for work or what have you. They didn't you know, whatever. They they already like the food they like.
Max:They didn't eat there was just a lot of costs that were only gonna be paid by younger people, and I think that's what we need to be really, really careful about is not creating a dynamic where boomers are encouraged to vote for things that have no costs for them but high costs for future generations. And so yeah. I mean, I've I've, you know, I I've encountered this sort of idea of building, in American politics. There's a sort of a a push among Democrats to talk about, you know, sort of, the the, you know, the building economy, build green energy, build this, build that. And I think progressives definitely need to orient more around building and less around criticizing.
Max:And maybe there is an opportunity for for sort of common cause there, and I would be happy to be a part of it.
Markham:Well, that's a great note on which to end this interview, and we'll no doubt have conversations in the future about how we can be part of that, how we can build. We've agreed now that the generations have to unite, and we have to think about building, building anew or, shoring up the institutions that we currently have that maybe are in need of some repair. A little spackle, a little paint, you know, freshen them up for for the for the 21st century and make them work again. So, Max, this has been a very interesting conversation. Really appreciate it, and, very happy to have you on episode 1 of this podcast.
Markham:So thank you.
Max:Well, it was a pleasure. It was a good conversation, and I I wish you all the luck as you as you take this thing forward.
Markham:Yeah. We'll see what happens. As I mentioned to you, off-uh, fair, it it might be 1 episode. It might be a 100. It might be a 1, 000.
Markham:But, I think that the why behind politics is a question that isn't asked or answered enough. And, well, we'll see what we can what little contribution we can make to, the national body politic.
Max:I like it.