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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] Chris: So I said, "If I had a female therapist who had been a victim of assault and abuse and she did not want to work with abusers, that she didn't want to work with predators, you're saying I should require her to do that?" And they said, "Yes."
[00:00:14] Stephanies: [00:00:15] Wow.
[00:00:15] Chris: And I said, "I think that's unethical." I said, "So if I had a Black or Jewish therapist and I had a couple come in who were heading up the KKK here and they wanted to develop better communication skills so that they could lead the KKK more [00:00:30] effectively here, you think I should require my Black or Jewish therapist to work with that couple?"
And they said, "Yes."
[00:00:38] Announcer: You must be some kind of therapist.
[00:00:44] Stephanies: Today, I [00:00:45] have the pleasure of welcoming back Chris Legg. He is the lead pastor at South Spring Baptist Church in Tyler, Texas, as well as the founding owner and clinical director of Aletheia Family Counseling Center. He originally appeared on this podcast on episode [00:01:00] 193, uh, which aired close to Christmas, and we talked about sort of the beginning of my faith journey.
Today, I get to welcome him back to talk about the intersection of counseling, values, ethics, and issues [00:01:15] affecting, uh, new counselors and grad students. So Chris Legg, welcome back. Great to see you again.
[00:01:19] Chris: It is great to be back. This is fun.
[00:01:21] Stephanies: I'm always happy to speak with you, and, uh, grateful to have your voice here on the podcast.
Um, and today I didn't know what we were going to [00:01:30] talk about, but we had a little behind-the-scenes chat before the recording, and I think what we stumbled upon will be very valuable to listeners who are concerned about the state of the counseling field, uh, specifically, um, the sort [00:01:45] of newer counselors that I often hear from and that you work with directly in your role because you provide, um...
You, you train grad students in several roles actually. Can you explain a little bit about what you do?
[00:01:57] Chris: Yes. So coming up on about, [00:02:00] for about 20 years or maybe a little more, actually 25 years probably now, um, I've been training grad students through all three semesters, um, of their practicum and internship, and then also students who [00:02:15] then graduate and I, and work on their associateship.
I do supervision with them. We figured out the other day that I've been involved with the training of 60 or 70 therapists in my career, and so, um, we've been doing this a long [00:02:30] time with a lot of people From a lot of programs That's great.
[00:02:33] Stephanies: And so f- so for 20 years, you've probably seen a big change in that time.
[00:02:39] Chris: It's interesting 'cause one of the topics I think we're gonna dive into is conversion therapy conversations, and [00:02:45] that has probably been an issue the whole time as part of the conversation of issues regarding, um, homosexuality and attraction and what that means. Um, but of course also during that time, things have [00:03:00] changed like the Supreme Court, um, affirming, uh, same-sex marriage, um, and then the response to some of the conversion therapy and, and what conversion therapy meant when I was getting started, um, is very, very different from how [00:03:15] it's defined now.
That's, well, I'm sure we'll come back to that. But then, and then questions like whether or not, uh, trainers, practitioners have the right or authority to say there are certain populations that I don't work with. Um, and [00:03:30] that, that hit a crisis point a few years ago in our office that I can talk about in a minute if you want to, but that is a, um, the students that I meet, and almost no matter what program they come from, even seminaries, um, 'cause I've worked with s- with master's [00:03:45] students from seminaries, from secular universities, and everything in between, is that almost all of them come to training borderline panicked.
Um, they believe that there is a lawsuit, [00:04:00] an imminent lawsuit coming for them because, um, of their own personal views on any number of topics. Um, they're f- they think if it sneaks out, um, that they have, that they have personal views on any of these topics, that they're gonna get [00:04:15] crucified, so to speak. And I mean, they are, they are terrified and, and it is interesting because, Stephanie, one of the things in our interview that we do is we ask them some values-based questions.
Um, and part of, you know, first we did that almost out of curiosity. Now we do it to [00:04:30] see are they able and willing to talk about their personal values? Um, because that, it, they are panicked to talk about what they believe about things, um, 'cause they have been taught that they aren't allowed to [00:04:45] have opinions about things.
Um, and so we have to, we have to help them understand that the phrase check your values at the door is a universally held phrase by these students when [00:05:00] they come out, that they're supposed to check their values at the door. Now, being me, my first question is always, uh, is always, "How about that one?"
Because that was a value statement you just made. Checking your values at the door is a value statement. Are you supposed to [00:05:15] check that one at the door? Are you allowed to have that one? And then I start listing, like, "Okay, so do you want your client's best life?" "Yes." "Sorry, that's a value. You need to check that at the door.
Do you think human beings are worthy of dignity and to be treated [00:05:30] with respect?" "Yes." "Sorry, that's a value. You've gotta check that at the door." And it turns out what they mean is they've been trained that certain values that their school or their professors or that the, the therapy world as a whole don't hold in high [00:05:45] regard, those are supposed to be checked at the door.
Um, and it turns out that's not right either. So yeah, I've, I... It is every, every single student we have to engage in this conversation with them.
[00:05:58] Stephanies: That woke [00:06:00] ideology is so psychologically abusive, isn't it? It is. It's like, uh, most people who go into this kind of work do it because they have a heart, they have compassion, they, they value human dignity, or they value growth, forgiveness, redemption, [00:06:15] you know, these beautiful values, many of which are also Christian values.
Um- Right ... you know, and, and to take someone who's been driven to pursue a values-based career- Right ... and then tell them to check [00:06:30] their values, and yeah, like you're saying, which values are supposed to be checked at the door, and which ones are supposed to be guiding what's happening in the therapy office?
And I want to say this dynamic, it, it cuts both ways, and depending on what side of it you're on and what kind of an environment you're in, it [00:06:45] might not feel that way. But- You know, earlier you were telling me about issues pertaining to therapists' right to say, "I don't work with certain populations." And I think we should dive into that, but before we do, [00:07:00] you know, when you said that in general terms, I wasn't sure which populations you were referring to, but what it brought to mind was Leslie Elliot's story, um, which is the same story of a lot of grad students that I hear [00:07:15] from and, you know, LPC, LMFT interns that I hear from, which is they're being educated in environments where people say things like, "We don't treat s- Trump supporters here."
Right? So okay, so you're t- you're saying that there's a large [00:07:30] portion of the population against whom you have such strong biases that conflict with your values that you would not be willing to treat them as a human being worthy of dignity and respect who can [00:07:45] get their psychological needs met through counseling services, right?
So that is, that type of bias exists in much of the counseling field, but you've encountered issues with regard to the other [00:08:00] bias in the other direction, therapists being able to say they, they don't work with people because of their conservative values rather than their liberal values, for instance. Can you tell us about that?
[00:08:08] Chris: Yeah, this was really fascinating. So for f- 15 years, we have a, a university that's very close to where we are, [00:08:15] and it's a great university, does good work And for 15 years, I trained students coming through their program, that they would come do their practicum work and their internship work at Aletheia, which is fine.
They are a rela- they're a secular university, relatively liberal in [00:08:30] the way that they teach their therapists and train them, which that doesn't, that doesn't bother me. I'm glad for them to learn all of the different perspectives with stuff. Um, and then, um, somewhere around 2021, um, they came to me [00:08:45] and said that one of my s- one of the students, one of their students who was working at Aletheia, had put in a paper that she was glad that at Aletheia she was not required to work with same-sex couples because [00:09:00] she didn't feel qualified to do so and didn't feel like that fit within her moral boundaries.
Well, the, that triggered the professors to come, the two professors who ran the program to come meet with us and say, "We're no [00:09:15] longer going to let our students come to you for training." Um, and when we were like, "Well, gosh, that's a bummer. Why?" And they said, the quote was, "We think you should require all of your practitioners to work with every [00:09:30] population."
And I said, "I think that's unethical. It would be unethical to require my practitioners to work with every population." And so I said, "Let me, let me throw out some examples to you and see how you feel about [00:09:45] them." So, and, and I'm, I, I guess in a sense I was playing dumb. I knew that what they were having a problem with was me not requiring all of our practitioners to work with same-sex couples.
Um, but so I said, "So if I had a [00:10:00] female therapist who had been a victim of assault and abuse, and she did not want to work with abusers, um, that she didn't wanna work with predators, you're saying I should require her to do that?" And they said yes.
[00:10:14] Stephanies: [00:10:15] Wow.
[00:10:16] Chris: And, and I said, "Okay, I, I, I think one, okay, there's one.
I think that's unethical." I said, "So if I had a Black or Jewish therapist, and I had a couple come in who were heading up the KKK here, and they wanted to develop better [00:10:30] communication skills so that they could lead the KKK more effectively here, you think I should require my Black or Jewish therapist to work with that couple?"
And they said yes.
[00:10:42] Stephanies: Whoa.
[00:10:43] Chris: And I said-
[00:10:43] Stephanies: They did not mean that. They [00:10:45] did not mean that
[00:10:45] Chris: Of course they did. Of course not. They were lying. Like this. Right. And so I said, "I think you're right. Your, your organization, if you represent it, and ours are not ethically in alignment, um, [00:11:00] because I would never require that."
I don't require any therapist to work with a org- uh, work, to work with a population that they don't feel comfortable. I'm willing to set it at a layer of comfortability If they aren't comfortable working with that population, if, if I had a client who said, "I don't work with women," or a [00:11:15] counselor who said, "I don't work with women," or, "I don't work with men," I would...
Now, I would perhaps talk through that. I might challenge them on their reasoning, but as we discussed why, would go sure. If that's, if that's a boundary that you have, you're allowed to have [00:11:30] that, and we'll try to make sure we shore up around you if that seems most appropriate.
[00:11:34] Stephanies: I have a question just to get the lay of the land here, because when I went to grad school, there were people training to learn to work with children, and there were people [00:11:45] not.
Right. So a- according to age, that's one thing where I feel like it's still okay. Yeah. And again, there's a competency issue here, which we haven't fully sorted out. Of course. Like, th- there's this big emphasis on cultural [00:12:00] competency, right? Which, which- Right ... gets misused a lot. But, you know, y- you wouldn't want someone seeing your kid for child therapy who doesn't have experience and training- Right
working with children, as well as a heart for working with [00:12:15] children, right?
[00:12:15] Chris: Right.
[00:12:16] Stephanies: So w- the, there's like age groups. Is that, i- is discrimination allowed there?
[00:12:20] Chris: So there were two different issues. So I asked specifically a question just like that, and they said, "If your therapist lacks the [00:12:30] competency, if your practitioner lacks the competency, then you should require them to gain the training until they have the competency so that they can."
[00:12:39] Stephanies: Including- And so- ... with all age groups?
[00:12:41] Chris: That, that's, when I said use the examples [00:12:45] of, I talked about couples from cult- different cultural backgrounds, different sexual preferences, different religious backgrounds, and different age and gender categories. And said, "So if I don't, if I don't feel competent to work with women's issues, should I [00:13:00] be required to work with women on women's issues?"
And they said, "If you don't feel competent, then what you are required to do is to gain that competency so that you can work with them."
[00:13:12] Stephanies: You
[00:13:12] Chris: know,
[00:13:13] Stephanies: part of-
[00:13:14] Chris: And I s- I think that's, no, no, I think that's a [00:13:15] problem.
[00:13:16] Stephanies: For the non-therapists in the audience, like part of how we actually think about competence is the competence to know when to refer out.
[00:13:24] Chris: That's
[00:13:24] Stephanies: exactly right. And like, I mean, I gained a wide range of experience in my [00:13:30] first five to seven years in the field, but still, if someone had, you know, obsessive compulsive disorder, I'd want them seeing an OCD specialist, not me. Yes. Right? Right. And that's not a discrimination. That's just like, you know, there's this thing called exposure and [00:13:45] response prevention that is a, sort of the gold standard for OCD, and I have- Right
chosen not to learn that. I mean, 'cause where do you draw the line, right? If there are certain, let's say, clinical conditions where the gold standard, like for [00:14:00] OCD it's ERP, for example- Right, right ... right? And a therapist who has chosen not to pursue that specialty, they're getting their continuing education in other things.
Someone who has a passion for working with couples, right? Right. And they want to do their CEUs [00:14:15] with couples as much as possible, because that's what they want to focus on. They don't want to focus on OCD. Like the- Right ... so it's a competency issue, so it's, it's, I would be happy to refer you to someone better suited to handle this need.
It's like where- Absolutely ... do we draw the line with all these categories?
[00:14:29] Announcer: Right. [00:14:30]
[00:14:30] Chris: Well, and then what you said a second ago when you said trained to work with children, and then you said, "And have a heart to work with children," and that's what they were unwilling to bend on in any way. It doesn't make any difference whether you have a heart, because you're supposed to check your values at [00:14:45] the door.
What you want or believe you're gifted at or good at or is irrelevant to the conversation. Your comfort levels, you, you are a non-entity in their mind. That's what they say. Now, of course, no one practices that way. No [00:15:00] one actually does that. But in their mind, this is the version of therapy that's being trained a lot now, which is that therapist is an affirmation machine, that all we do is the counsel- the client comes in and talks to us and we say, [00:15:15] uh, the same thing an AI would say.
In fact, one of my therapists, a guy named Scott Hersey, the minute he heard about this movement, he was like, he said, "Well, that'll be replaced by AI within 10 years." That, that version of therapy won't exist, 'cause AI's better at that than humans are.
[00:15:28] Stephanies: Well, and when it comes [00:15:30] to same-sex couples- I, I doubt that there are very many same-sex couples in the country who would want to see a therapist who had felt coerced into working with [00:15:45] same-sex couples, right?
If they have, you know, what- whatever it is might, might be, like, whether it's religious reservations or they just don't feel like that's the type of work that they have a heart for, right? Like, I, I've counseled plenty [00:16:00] of same-sex couples myself because I was a very liberal LMFT in a community setting where I had a wide range of referrals and, uh, it's been a while since I did couples counseling of any kind, and if and when I do refer to, re- return to couples counseling, I am, [00:16:15] um, you know, more religious and more conservative now than I was when I was younger.
Um, and so that would affect, you know, how I approach my practice. But my point is, having counseled plenty of same-sex couples , they would not [00:16:30] have wanted to see someone who did not have a heart for that work, who d- or, or who... You know? It's just, like, r- what about respect for patients' autonomy and for, like, how, how autistic are these people making [00:16:45] these rules?
'Cause they sound really rigid, and they don't sound like they reflect... A- and the thing is, I say that in jest because the reality is that a lot of high-functioning autistic people, they can read the room, right? They may not, they may not read it and respond in the same way as someone [00:17:00] else, but, like, they also know.
In fact, maybe they have their guard up more. Maybe they're more hypervigilant in some ways to signs of incongruence because of their deficits in social skills. They're maybe even on higher alert.
[00:17:13] Chris: I think [00:17:15] fundamentally this was essentially a, a form of persecution against a counseling center that was undergirded by Christian values, and these two professors were uncomfortable with that.
The way the story ends, by the way, is that [00:17:30] for, so for two years we did not work with students from that school. They no longer allowed us to be someone who the students could go to to get their training After two years, those two professors left, um, and a new professor came in to take over the program.
[00:17:45] She immediately contacted me and said, um, "Chris, I'm really confused. For 15 years Aletheia worked with our students, and for the last two years you've not worked with our students. Why haven't you been working with our students the last two years?" And [00:18:00] I said, "You know, I had a funny feeling this was more about those two professors than it was about the school," because apparently they had not communicated that to anyone.
They had just decided they didn't like the way we did business or who we were, [00:18:15] and so they didn't want us to do that. And this new professor taking over said, "Well, how, how long would it... Like, could you take a student this semester?" And here's what you'll really appreciate. It's connected to a hospital.
This is what, this is what made me laugh every time I would think about it. [00:18:30] And, and I didn't wanna fight it because we have plenty of students. Like, we're, we're, we're never short on people trying to get training with us. Um, and so I wanted to see if it worked itself out. The same time that this program canceled [00:18:45] me and our program from training their students, that same year, the cardiologists in the same program hired me to be their ethics teacher.
And so I, I couldn't teach in my [00:19:00] actual area of expertise, but I was invited by the cardiologist, and so for the last, like, six years I've taught their ethics training for the cardiologists. Um, but for two of those years I was not allowed to train therapy students, um, from the same [00:19:15] program. And so again, I think it ended up being much more narrow than we thought Or maybe as narrow as we suspected.
But it was a true, you know, I guess cancellation that back in that era was we're no longer gonna send students to you. And [00:19:30] I agree with you, I don't believe at face value. I think if I had-- if what had happened is my student had gone back and said, "Hey, I'm glad that they don't make me work with Trump MAGA people," [00:19:45] I think the professors would have lauded that discrimination.
Um, I don't know that. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't mean to call them hypocrites with that, but it, it seems like the issue was that the population she was not required to work with, that she [00:20:00] was uncomfortable working with, was a same-sex, was a same-sex couple. And we have plenty of people to refer, either in-house or to other offices nearby to work with same-sex couples.
It's not like we're depriving them of any help. [00:20:15] There's plenty of good help out there for them, and often one of-- often our therapists or even some of them are willing to do that work as well and feel c- prepared to do it and good at it. And, but often sometimes we don't. And but in her case, I was certainly not gonna have a [00:20:30] student step into that complication right out of the box.
Um, couples work is hard for anybody, much less a student, and then add in those complications, um, she just wasn't prepared. Anyway, so [00:20:45] in that mix, what happened is, um, I still have students who come in and will say, "Oh, there's so many people get, get in trouble for not being willing to work with every population."
And so having done the research now on that issue for a [00:21:00] couple of years and tried to keep track of it, it really is fascinating how it's just not accurate. There aren't therapists getting into tons of trouble for not working with every population. I think maybe everyone, including even the [00:21:15] LPC boards, are more rational than that.
Um, and so the students will say, "Oh, no, there in our textbook, there were several examples of people who've gotten in huge trouble." And it turns out everywhere I looked, it was the same three examples, [00:21:30] one of whom was someone who worked for the government And because she did not want to work, did not want to do essentially what her job description was, which was to work with everyone within, um, the organization, and there was a population she [00:21:45] did not want to work with in the organization, so she got terminated.
It wasn't... It had nothing to do with her license. It had nothing to do with the licensure board. It was her job. She worked for the Department of Health. Um, and then there have been a couple of students who have been [00:22:00] removed from a master's program because they didn't want to work with some- with a population, I think in one case at least it was same-sex couples.
But that's still not a licensure board issue. She, that person just had to move to a new school.
[00:22:13] Stephanies: So there was a student [00:22:15] who was removed from one school for saying that they didn't want to learn how to work with same-sex couples. Was this, uh, an MFT program, do you know?
[00:22:23] Chris: No, uh, it's not. It's just a, the university said, "These are our s- ethical standards for our [00:22:30] university.
We require this, and you can't be in a program if you don't."
[00:22:33] Stephanies: I just, I'm asking if you know what type of license they would have gone for through that program because, um, in states like California, LMFT is the, sort of the most popular counselor [00:22:45] license. In other- Right ... places it's very uncommon. All I know is that, you know, LMFTs must learn to work with couples, whereas a lot of LPC tracks you don't have to learn how to work with couples because it's mostly about individual therapy.
So I'm just [00:23:00] wondering if, if it was a family systems-oriented program and licensure track.
[00:23:04] Chris: Oh, a school counseling master's program. Was what she was going for
[00:23:10] Stephanies: School counseling
[00:23:12] Chris: Yep. At Eastern Michigan [00:23:15] University
[00:23:15] Stephanies: I don't understand why someone who's training specifically to be a school counselor would need h- to know how to do couples counseling.
That sounds like they need to learn how to work with children and adolescents
[00:23:27] Chris: During a clinical practicum, she was assigned a client [00:23:30] seeking counseling regarding their same-sex relationship Okay She requested that the client be referred or reassigned to another student counselor. The university said that the client vi- [00:23:45] refusal to counsel the client violated the code of ethics, and she was eventually expelled from the program
[00:23:51] Stephanies: Now I understand, because it wasn't about providing couples counseling to same-sex couples.
It was about, uh, maybe working with students in a high school, for [00:24:00] example, and there's a, you know, a 16-year-old high school girl in a same-sex relationship, wants to talk to the school counselor, and she says, "In that position, I don't feel comfortable. I'd refer them out." And then she ends up getting, um, removed from the program because that's not [00:24:15] considered an acceptable position
[00:24:16] Chris: I think that's probably how it played out.
I don't know much more detail beyond that, but, but what stood out to me in digging these up is that none of them were about a therapist losing license. None of them were about a counselor or a [00:24:30] psychologist getting in trouble with their licensure board. None of them were about anyone, um, being sued or anything.
It was, what it turned out to be was someone who lost their job because their job required it of them and a couple of students, and those were the same [00:24:45] three examples over and over and over again, and it turns out they're really some of the very few examples that exist at all. Um,
[00:24:55] Stephanies: so s- You know Lisa Duvall.
Do you know about Lisa Duvall being doxxed? [00:25:00]
[00:25:00] Chris: Um, I don't know the story about that, no
[00:25:03] Stephanies: Um, so I'm not sure how much of this information is public, so I'll just speak in general terms. But, um, basically she's [00:25:15] a, a therapist and a mother who has spoken out about the trans issue and, um, she relocated from, I believe, Virginia to Berkeley, [00:25:30] California.
And at her job in Berkeley, her new job, there was someone she trusted very much there who assured her that she was welcome there, but then someone else found out about some of the things that she said publicly about trans, and they doxxed [00:25:45] her, and she ended up fired due to social pressure, and she was forced to essentially start over in private practice when her plan had been to be employed.
Um, so that is something that occurred this year, pretty recently. Um, and [00:26:00] it was, it was stressful for her. It's another one of these instances of someone losing their job, not losing their license. And there is a difference and, you know, nobody's saying these things are easy. You know, I, um, I haven't lost a job over this issue, but it did completely change the [00:26:15] trajectory of my career.
Um, for anyone who hasn't been following my story for a long time, I began to tell this story in episode 11 with Helen Joyce, where she reverse interviewed me, um, about what I went through with the Oregon Licensing Board. And, you know, it was an intimidation tactic, you know, used by [00:26:30] trans rights activists to try to silence people like me.
Um, and so those are the things that happen, right? The, it's the Lisa Duvall stories. It's the Stephanie Wynne stories. Um, you know, I believe that Sasha Ayad has gone through some kind of process and came out of that okay. I don't know the details. I [00:26:45] don't know if she shared that anywhere. I think she has not really chosen to focus on that.
Um- Those, those, that seems to be where things go, right? The process is the punishment. Um, there's intimidation, there's harassment, [00:27:00] there's sort of that kind of law fair through these boards. But it seems like through all of your research you found that the reality is at the end of the day, these boards are extremely hesitant to pick a side in this issue.
Um, [00:27:15] you know, I have inside gossip w- that I've received that someone in a position of power very closely related to a licensing board somewhere, that's all I'm gonna say, said years ago, and I [00:27:30] quote, "This is gonna be a shit show." Um, with regard to the, the pressure on our field to affirm gender. Um, uh, and, you know, we're already seeing with, you know, Varian versus Einhorn, [00:27:45] for instance, the first detransitioner lawsuit victory, and I mentioned this recently on another episode with Lynn Chadwick.
You know, I- I've been in the gender critical scene since before we had any detransitioner victories, and we were all waiting for the first one. Well, the first one was Varian versus [00:28:00] Einhorn, and in that case, the psychologist was found 70% culpable. So the pressure's, the pressure's gonna flow both ways, right?
You can try to attack people like me on the basis of what gets mislabeled so [00:28:15] called conversion therapy. And by the way, to everyone on YouTube, yes I know Trevor Project automatically inserts their little narrative at the bottom of the screen on YouTube. You don't need to alert me, I have no power over this.
That's how [00:28:30] much power T- the Trevor Project has in America, and it's so funny to all the people who think that, like, the trans people are the, like, righteous underdogs, the oppressed victims in all this, and people like you and me, we're the dominant authorities, we're the, we're the bad guys. We're, you know.
For, [00:28:45] for all the people viewing it that way, it's, it's really ironic because look who has the power, right? The Trevor Project has the power to come into a video like mine where we talk about this phrase conversion therapy that's obviously been quite misused. They have the power to tell YouTube to [00:29:00] insert their narrative on my video.
Do I have the power to insert my narrative into all the videos promoting trends on YouTube? I don't think so. So who's really, who's really the underdog in this fight?
[00:29:13] Chris: Well, that was, what's wild [00:29:15] is that's what I spoke to these professors when they came in, was I said, "This is, it is intriguing to me that I'm fine with my therapist, who I'm gonna hire probably for years after they're done with your program, learning your perspective on therapy.
[00:29:30] You are not okay with your students learning mine. One of us is a free thinker Like, you, you don't get to claim to be the liberal free thinker if you're saying, "No, we're shutting down any other voices in our [00:29:45] students' minds except ours," which is what they clearly were trying to do. And so I said, "I, I don't, you know, I don't, I don't know where this is gonna go, but at least, you know, when you try to sleep at night, don't think of yourself as the liberal free thinker here.
[00:30:00] You are the one trying to keep your students from learning other perspectives on these topics." But, but that's right. This was, this was a, you know, a university. It's not like I'm gonna try to go toe-to-toe, but I also didn't need to. For, for our case, it just was sad [00:30:15] for their students to not have the option to come learn from us.
Um, the good news is there's plenty of other good, um, Christian-founded professional therapists in our community. It's an advantage of being in Tyler, Texas, um, that you can have extremely [00:30:30] well-trained therapists who also have a, a Judeo-Christian worldview underpinning, um, which is what, which is what inspires us to treat our clients as special, as treasure, as created in the image of, of God.
And so, um, that motivates us with that. What [00:30:45] it... It actually caused me to do, um, in my bylaws for Aletheia, we added a clause in our bylaws that says this: "The na- the nature of what we do The nature of our counseling, teaching, consultation, and other services are, number one, [00:31:00] artistic. Aletheia therapy is an expression of the art of therapy and of the therapist.
Number two, professional. Aletheia therapy is built of sound ethics, theory, training, and professionalism. It is personal. Aletheia therapy springs from the well that is the [00:31:15] identity of the therapist. It is relational. Aletheia therapy requires the creation of the entity of a therapeutic relationship. It is scientific.
Aletheia therapy is constantly being honed based on evidence and engages in the processes of therapy. S- [00:31:30] it is speech. This is, that's a key one. What we do is inherently speech. Aletheia therapy is dependent on talk therapy principles that require grace and freedom in speech. What we do is theological.
Aletheia therapy is founded on the God-given value of all [00:31:45] people, and it is a business. Aletheia is intended to make a profit doing these things in coordination, not competition, with our clients and therapists and staff and community. Um, and I would, I would defy anyone to argue against any of those. [00:32:00] And
[00:32:01] Stephanies: becoming- I like that.
It's very transparent.
[00:32:03] Chris: Yep. And becoming an LPC does not take away any of those rights, and going, me walking into a counseling office as an LPC does not take away any of those. [00:32:15] I don't sign, sign away my freedoms of any kind to walk into a therapy office. Um, now, I can, I can be in agreement with the LPC board that so long as they want to license me, there's certain things they can [00:32:30] require of me, 100%, absolutely, and if they ever require something of me that I believe is unethical, then I will give up my license, as probably a frightening number of therapists have in the last 10 years that I've known, um-
[00:32:42] Stephanies: Hmm
[00:32:43] Chris: because of some of this. You've
[00:32:44] Stephanies: known, [00:32:45] you've known a lot of therapists who have given up their license voluntarily?
[00:32:47] Chris: I've known several. A lot may be too big, but I've known several who are good, talented therapists, and they've given up their license, and then they, 'cause here's what's wild, they can do exactly the same practice [00:33:00] calling themselves a coach, calling themselves a guide, calling themselves a shepherd.
They can use almost any term they want to other than professional counselor. And in fact, I also have to tell you this, I had to pull my hair out a little bit with this one, Stephanie, a few, a [00:33:15] few, I guess about a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago, is that we discovered that someone who was trying to work with us was falsely claiming to have a license when they didn't.
Um, and so I returned that over to the LPC board in Texas, and they said, "Well, [00:33:30] there's nothing we can do because they don't have a license, and the only people we have authority over are licensed people." And I was like, "I don't, I don't think that's how that works." And they were like, "Yeah, sorry." And-
[00:33:41] Stephanies: I could have sworn, 'cause I've done a little bit of research.
It's been a while, but [00:33:45] I've looked through board disciplinary documents before. Yeah. And I, I could have sworn that I saw-
[00:33:49] Chris: I- ...
[00:33:50] Stephanies: something about someone practicing without a license getting sanctioned by the board, but that's weird. Okay.
[00:33:56] Chris: I agree, but I don't know how they could... How do they enforce that sanction?[00:34:00]
What are they gonna do? Take away their license? I don't, I, I, and I don't know. I, that was all they told me- Right. But you think
[00:34:07] Stephanies: maybe- ... and I was
[00:34:07] Chris: like, "Great. Well, I've filed it. I've done my job."
[00:34:09] Stephanies: S- civil penalty. I mean, maybe- Yeah ... maybe that's... But you, yeah, you'd think there'd be a civil penalty for that. [00:34:15]
[00:34:15] Chris: You would think.
I'm sure there is something. My guess is they just weren't inspired enough to try to mess with it.
[00:34:22] Stephanies: So you said that you know people who have voluntarily given up their licenses and- Mm-hmm ... chosen to operate doing [00:34:30] similar work under a different title. So just, uh, so everyone is aware, I retain my license.
Um, I might as well switch it to inactive status because everything I do, I do under the title of coach, and I do that, [00:34:45] uh, f- so there are reasons, you know, the reasons I do things the way I do is that I worked hard to obtain my license, and I'm gonna keep something that I worked hard for if I can. It's also a bit of a show of strength at this point to [00:35:00] be like, "Look, I still have this.
You, you tried, you tried to take me down and it failed," right? I still have this. I'm, I can speak with the authority of a licensed marriage and family therapist who's been licensed for 13 years at this point. Or no, not licensed. I've, hmm, I've been [00:35:15] licensed for 10. Licensed for 10, okay? Um- But, um, and, and practicing for 13.
So I'm standing on the authority of that title, but I also have sort of a unique ecosystem of my business because I'm [00:35:30] a big enough name with this podcast and blog and, you know- Right ... social media presence and stuff that, um, the people who are meant to find my work really don't care at this point, right?
If I were to lose my license- Right ... over so-called conversion therapy allegations, which people have [00:35:45] attempted and failed, right? And if that were to have gone a different direction or if it were to happen again, right, like my audience would applaud me for that. Right. Of course, right. Like, so, so there's, um- Rightly so
you know, the reason that I do that, that work under coaching rather [00:36:00] than, uh, therapy is because it's a different set of expectations. Right. It's a different, you know, sort of legal structure around it. I still abide by many of the same ethics that I do in therapy, like, you know, protecting my clients' privacy, for example.
Yep. Um, [00:36:15] respecting their autonomy, making sure they have informed consent about what it is they're getting into in the coaching relationship. So a lot of those principles carry over, but I also like to have the freedom, uh, the total freedom of speech that comes with m- the work falling under the label of something [00:36:30] like coach as opposed to therapist.
Right. Because I just, I, I honestly don't wanna bother with the, the culture around therapy at this point. Right. So, you know, I still have all the skills of a therapist. Um, and sometimes I'm more in a therapeutic type role in coaching, but oftentimes I'm giving very direct [00:36:45] feedback, very direct guidance, um, things like that.
Yep. I feel like I can take more risks. So I'm one of these people that still has a license but chooses to work as a coach instead. Um, and that's in my informed consent documents.
[00:36:58] Announcer: Yeah.
[00:36:58] Stephanies: Um, but you know [00:37:00] people who'd voluntarily given up their license. Can you share a little bit about what happened? Because you said that what might drive someone to that brink is if their board asks them to do something they find unethical.
So what would be an example of that?
[00:37:14] Chris: In the [00:37:15] cases that I'm thinking of, more it has to do with what we were talking about a minute ago, which is the threat of- And so one that I'm thinking of is a lady who works with, uh, in the foster and adoption world, um, foster and [00:37:30] adoption trauma, which involves a lot of identity confusion, um, of all types.
And so she wants to be able to speak openly and clearly about the fact that a lot of these kids have identity confusion [00:37:45] that has nothing to do with the apparent identity confusion, whether that's an attraction issue, whether that's a gender issue. What, what, I mean, for a lot of these kids that come from really tough, abusive places, it can be a species issue.
I mean, they just are totally [00:38:00] confused about identity.
[00:38:01] Stephanies: And so- The furries, AKA therians ...
[00:38:03] Chris: a fur- as an example, I don't, I've, gosh, you know, yes. I wasn't even going that far with it, but yes. I mean, these are, these are kids who truly can be very confused. They, they've not had a mom to orbit in a healthy [00:38:15] way when they were very little and, and that can leave a kid orbiting and just kind of floating around in space the rest of their lives in some ways when it comes to an identity perspective.
And, and so just because she didn't want to have to deal with all of that stuff and even think about it, [00:38:30] she let her license lapse and, and moved on. Um, I've known several people who, as they've gotten kind of probably about to my stage, mid-50s, to say, "Listen, I don't, I don't need this licensure to draw clients.
My clients know [00:38:45] me. They, you know, whatever." And if I ever have that hint of like, oh, I can't, I can't say this or I can't do that or I can't do whatever, um, a friend of mine decided he wanted to sit with clients on his back porch at his [00:39:00] house. That's where he wanted to m- he felt like he did his best therapy sitting on his back port- porch at his couch, at his house Uh, who, who am I to say, right?
But, but he-
[00:39:08] Stephanies: Does he have swing chairs? Swing chairs, hammocks.
[00:39:12] Chris: They, they, right. Those are magical, right? [00:39:15]
[00:39:15] Stephanies: Garden- Um- Garden view?
[00:39:16] Chris: That's right, yeah. I have a garden view behind mine. Water fountain? I do, I do a lot of pastoral counseling sitting on my back porch. Uh-
[00:39:23] Stephanies: Sounds like a dream ...
[00:39:24] Chris: it is amazing, yeah. I'll have to send you a picture sometime.
The, um, uh, maybe, maybe next time [00:39:30] I'm on I'll f- I'll time it so that I can be on my back porch watching the, the, the beautiful view back there. But, uh, yeah, exactly. And but he said, "I feel like that could get me in trouble with the LPC board to, that feels like a dual relationship maybe to the [00:39:45] LPC board, so I'm just gonna let my license lapse, and
[00:39:49] Stephanies: I'm just gonna do it anyway."
Huh, so he just calls himself a coach now?
[00:39:52] Chris: That's right. That's right, he's a life coach or whatever the title that he uses now is. But yeah, that's a, I think that is, I think we will [00:40:00] see that if the pressure continues in either direction, we'll see more of that. And I'm sure that's part of why we're seeing accreditation be pushed down lower.
I think the LPC board, especially in a state like Texas, realizes [00:40:15] it probably wouldn't be smart to alienate all of the Christian therapists. That probably represents tens of millions of dollars. Um, and so what they're doing is they're trying to push that down to the students with accreditation, and so that the students can't [00:40:30] get out of the master's level without having the right views, so that the LPC board doesn't have to worry about it.
And part of why I've stuck around is be- is, is to train these therapists who come out, not- that I necessarily disagree with [00:40:45] some of it. What I disagree with often is the level of fear and panic that is laid on them as a new therapist that, listen, if you mess up, if you misstep in any way here, you're going down, and you're not allowed to have your own opinions, and you're not allowed to have [00:41:00] your own thoughts.
And that's, that's just not accurate. And every time those things do go to the Supreme Court, um, at least in the last few years, they just get beat as sometimes 9-0 as freedom of speech issues. It turns [00:41:15] out you still have freedom of speech.
[00:41:17] Stephanies: So- Well, that's, that's a wonderfully encouraging message. I- when we get back from the break, I'd love to just have you speak directly to the grad students and counseling interns, um- Yeah
in the audience the same [00:41:30] way that you would speak to your students about that fear.
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[00:42:12] Stephanies: Before we started recording, you said [00:42:15] that when new students or interns arrive under your guidance, um, there's this kind of important phase of helping them with all of those fears that they've absorbed.
Um- Yeah ... tell us [00:42:30] more and, uh, like I said, I'm gonna just invite you to speak directly to those listening in the audience who might need that message.
[00:42:37] Chris: Yeah. Okay, cool. That'll be fun. Um, so I would- I start by helping them understand that, of [00:42:45] course, they are an important part of the therapeutic process. Um, they're an important part of their clients' lives.
That they are a human individual is vital to the therapeutic process. Now, the [00:43:00] Aletheia modality is founded on the idea that we need to know our clients first. Um, it's the old seek to understand before seeking to be understood. You need to know your clients and know them well. You need to understand how they engage with the world, and that [00:43:15] requires a person to do that, and then to integrate that into our therapeutic modalities that we have, the options that we have for how do we then help this client get where they wanna go.
And very often, by the time we get to know [00:43:30] them, we realize where they say they wanna go isn't where they wanna go, and we need to have that conversation with them that. Or where they wanna- what they think is the path to where they wanna go isn't there, and that requires them to have a relationship. Like I, I get to [00:43:45] know the, the, it is the I, the old I thou, the ancient I thou concept, uh, that is so important And so they are not an, a, an easily interchangeable, replaceable, it doesn't matter who- which therapist it is, it doesn't, all of those [00:44:00] things.
No, it matters that it's you. Um, their therapeutic experience with somebody else would be different. And so you cannot check your values at the door. In fact, many of your values are absolutely what make you valuable to that [00:44:15] client, um, even if they don't know it, even if you don't know it yet. Um, and so that's, that's a start is, um, you're an important part of this process.
You're not just an interchangeable cog. Um, you're an important part. That being said, obviously we [00:44:30] restre- respect the dignity and autonomy of our clients. We don't impose things on them. We expose them potentially to things. We show them options. We discuss them. We impact that. It's not our job to just affirm our clients.
If they just want to be [00:44:45] affirmed, again, they should go to an AI or their mom or something like that, someone who will just tell them how, their grandmother, how wonderful they are all the time. What they, what they're looking for from us is someone who can help them make their life better, more free, more meaningful, more purposeful.[00:45:00]
And so it requires us to know them and to engage. And if we do that in a constant state of fear, then we will fail. Um, counselors, trainees come in having been trained [00:45:15] with all kinds of amazing things. Like they come in and like I- I've had counselee students suddenly sit up straight, uncross their legs, and they're like, "I'm so sorry I had my legs crossed."
Like, I mean, so? And they're like, "Well, we, we were taught that that indicates that [00:45:30] you're closed off to the client and they're not going to..." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's," "in the list, in the list of things for you to be worried about. Um, sitting comfortably should not be one of the big things you're worried about."
I- most of our clients aren't, aren't reading you [00:45:45] at that level of, oh, these crossed leg- no, if your legs are crossed, that's probably just how you sit comfortably. That's probably not some type... Now, if the client's, if the client is stacking pillows on their lap between you and them, there, there might be some kind of therapeutic message going on there.
[00:46:00] But don't over, like they live in this state of fear of everything. Uh, am, am I sitting right? Am I writing correctly? Am I, am I speaking correctly? Am I, instead of recognizing, yes, you need to learn these techniques. What you're learning in school is important to learn [00:46:15] these techniques, these skill sets, all that, all that.
And that needs to be integrated into the real live human being who the, your client is meeting with. You, you don't, you don't, and you're gonna, it's gonna be hard at first. You're gonna feel afraid But then especially [00:46:30] if your client says something like, "You know, sometimes I feel like I'm the opposite sex," or if they, if they say, "Oh yeah, uh, my first love was someone of the same sex," and you're a Christian therapist, if that locks you up and panics you because you're suddenly going, [00:46:45] "Oh no, lawsuit about to happen, you know, red alarm," no, that's not where we need to go.
What you do is you still engage with them as the person with dignity, created in the image of God that they were before you heard this information. That doesn't somehow change that. You're here to help and get to know [00:47:00] them. And if you feel like you're not the right person to help them, that's okay too.
It's okay for us to talk through that and figure out how to help this person and what that needs to be. Because the person in your chair matters, and if you realize it [00:47:15] doesn't need to be you, that's okay too. Um, it's not that the therapist is just, is nothing but an affirmation reflection wall, um, for the client.
And so if, if you feel unprepared, incompetent, or you have no heart for this kind of [00:47:30] work, it's really probably not ethically appropriate or fair to your client to continue doing that work. And then I tell them, "We'll discuss it. Come to me, we'll talk about it, and we'll figure it out, and we'll work through it."
But it is You don't need to check your [00:47:45] values at the door. One of our principles is that we do, when it comes to, like, faith, we expose our faith, we don't ever impose our faith. Um, um, if a client asks, and, and I actually over the years d- I mean, here I am a Baptist pastor. Um, obviously sometimes [00:48:00] people come in and they will say, "Listen, I, I want to talk, but I don't talk about all that Jesus stuff."
And I'm like, "Great, that is not required. That's not somehow required." Now, in my head I'm thinking, "I'm a super interesting choice for you." You'd looked at all the therapists in [00:48:15] Tyler, Texas, and decided, "I'm gonna go see the Baptist pastor because I don't want to talk about Jesus stuff." Okay, fair. Turns out every single person who leads with that wants to talk about Jesus stuff.
Um, and I don't ever have to bring it up, and I don't. And, but [00:48:30] there's something, there's something in them that wants to unpack. Maybe it's the way they were raised with, with faith or the way they weren't raised or... But those topics are gonna come up. So I, I believe we do have... And, and I love, I like being licensed for [00:48:45] now, um, because I think there's a protection it affords, there's accountability it affords.
There's some, there's advantages that it allows, and I, I like that. I like being able to train students, and that requires a license for me to be able to train the new students coming out and, um, I like engaging with [00:49:00] it there, um, at this time. And I think there's a lot of positives, and there should be more.
And I, uh, hopefully there will be a leveling out of some of the negatives too before too long. So I would tell them, of course you're gonna have imposter syndrome, of course you're gonna feel a sense of fear when you get [00:49:15] started, but as much as possible, recognize this is a real live human being you're sitting across from.
Um, they're probably not a predator out to get you. Um, and so they're not just waiting for you to mess up so they can sic their lawyers on you. It just hasn't, again, [00:49:30] you know, Lord willing, knock on something, whatever you would say, I've been doing this 30-something years, um, and I've seen people get stuff filed against them, and I may someday, but what I haven't seen is a lot of ridiculous results.
In the [00:49:45] end, it is amazing how often, and it may be a pain, and like you said, the process can be the punishment in by itself. Um, but it is amazing how often it ends up settling where it should have settled in the first place. [00:50:00] Um, and hopefully it didn't cost the therapist too much in attorney's fees in the meantime.
Um, which can be bad. But that's my main thing is don't, you matter to the therapeutic process, and you don't need to live in constant fear, um, the whole time you're doing the [00:50:15] work. Which is Those are the two correctives. Everything else you've learned in school is probably pretty good. Those are often the two correctives I have to throw out there.
[00:50:24] Stephanies: Well, when you describe the fear that some of these young therapists are coming to you with, there's such [00:50:30] a hypervigilance and self-consciousness that of course those feelings on the part of the therapist would have a significant impact on the therapeutic process. They, they would, you know, that, that therapist's, um, [00:50:45] countertransference is pretty evident and that's going to impact the patient's transference.
You know, therapy above all other careers, therapy is... There, I don't think there's a career that this is more true of. Therapy is an interpersonal process. We are [00:51:00] professional interpersonal processors. That's what we do. Um, and, and so you're, you're so right to place all this emphasis on the, the self of the therapist because that is the magic ingredient.
It's [00:51:15] the, it's the person in the relationship, and we know this. We've known this for a long time, right? For, for anybody who doesn't know what I'm talking about, e- every therapist does, but, but there's basically, uh, there are studies that have shown that all therapeutic modalities [00:51:30] are about equally effective and what actually makes the difference is the quality of the therapist and the, the therapist-patient relationship.
That's what makes a difference. Um, and so when people come like, "I really need a CBT therapist," or, [00:51:45] "I need to do EMDR," or, you know, something like that, it's like, well, we'll see. You know? Like-
[00:51:50] Chris: Right. Those are great modalities. They have their place, but in the hands, in the hands of a therapist who is not prepared to do the [00:52:00] work, not...
It, it strikes, here's what strikes me, and so I'll say it this way. In many ways I, I think the analogy of a client coming in and saying, "I need this ch- something needs to change in my life. There's something I need to achieve or acquire or stop, and [00:52:15] can you help me get there?" And, and it's not s- people call them goals.
They're rarely verbalized that way. I have, rarely have any therapeutic goals that are verbalized as therapeutic goals by my clients. They don't call it that. They're like, "I, I wanted this to be better," or, [00:52:30] "I want to be happier here," or, "I want to experience something s- more sound or safe." And I think of that as being like a guide, and they're telling me they want to get to this ridge line over there, and, and I know this valley.
I know the valley like the back of my hand. [00:52:45] But I don't know them yet, and I can't just take them down the path I would take. That's not helpful. Um, some people need to go slowly. Some people prefer to go slowly. Some people want the most scenic route, and some people want to try to go straight up the side of the mountain.[00:53:00]
And some of the people who want to go straight up the side of the mountain can't go straight up the side of the mountain. And, and so you've got to get to know them well enough to know, one, where are they and what can they actually do, and where are they in this process? How motivated are they? And, and then [00:53:15] also how I integrate that into my life in the therapy office is how do we do this?
Now how do I guide you through this? And sometimes a therapeutic-- sometimes even, you know, therapists make mistakes too. I'll try to take a certain path that [00:53:30] turns out to be the wrong path. Um, and those are the ones that haunt you, you know, your whole time when you, when you later realize I took this person down a path that I thought they could do or were ready for and I was wrong, and we had to back all the way back out of that and try again or, [00:53:45] or back out of that and then refer them or something like that.
And, um, but, but it is, it is more about the, the interpersonal relationship than almost... All the rest of it are I don't [00:54:00] know, golf clubs, and we're, you know, we gotta f- try to find the right club or find the right p- path to help this person. But we are not an unimportant person in that process. Um, and even, even the most hardline, [00:54:15] the Freudian, e- even by the end of his life, Freud was recognizing what the worst part about his theory was how little it impacted the therapist.
It allowed for the impact of the therapist, and, um, so... [00:54:30] And I'm no Freudian, but that's even, even he, who saw it as the therapist should be interchangeable, realized it's not right.
[00:54:38] Stephanies: I like the, uh, landscape analogy. I, I use similar metaphors a lot in my coaching [00:54:45] process, um, and, you know, maps and paths and-
[00:54:48] Chris: Yes
[00:54:48] Stephanies: um, you know, I, I like that imagery.
[00:54:51] Chris: That's part of why we use a compass as our symbol.
[00:54:53] Stephanies: Oh, I use a... My, my logo is also based on a compass.
[00:54:58] Chris: Oh.
[00:54:58] Stephanies: Yeah.
[00:54:59] Chris: You know [00:55:00] what? I think we noticed that. We may have noted that. I should have referenced the tapestry behind you. That's a perfect like, yeah, how do we get up to that ridge?
[00:55:07] Stephanies: So it sounds like you have some real words of encouragement for the [00:55:15] younger therapists out there, and at a place like Aletheia, they can get the support that they need. Seems obvious, but easy to forget that for every therapist who's concerned that patients are gonna expect all therapists [00:55:30] to have a certain worldview, there are prospective patients looking for a therapist that shares their values.
Right. And, you know, it's like we were talking about earlier, which of these sides, so to speak, of the political [00:55:45] divide is, is the more totalitarian one at this point in history? And- Yeah ... you know, I think it seems like we would agree when I say that, you know, you and I are not trying to limit counseling [00:56:00] available to people who hold a certain set of- No
beliefs and values, but there is an effort to prevent anyone from holding more conservative or religious values [00:56:15] in the practice of therapy, to the point where i- if we follow that logic to its conclusion, there are people who would not want patients to be able to find therapists that share their values on the other side of the [00:56:30] aisle, right?
[00:56:30] Chris: Yeah.
[00:56:31] Stephanies: Um, and, and so... And that bleeds into the really uncomfortable territory where- Therapy is captured to the extent that it's not about therapy at all anymore. It's about [00:56:45] indoctrination into a certain- Yeah ... set of beliefs. And, and that it's really uncomfortable stuff to look at, and I don't think that the majority of liberal-minded therapists, um, feel this way.
[00:56:56] Chris: No.
[00:56:57] Stephanies: But I do think that there is a [00:57:00] quite vocal minority of people on the more extreme end of things That think that therapy should be about making sure everyone holds the right beliefs and not the wrong [00:57:15] ones, and if they hold the wrong ones, then therapy is a place that they should be punished
[00:57:19] Chris: That is the opposite of what we talked about, the impose versus expose model, which, you know, as I'm very comfortable because I believe human beings [00:57:30] have dignity and value because they're created in the image of God.
One of the things that's intriguing about the kind of new secular worldview is they, they have no such underpinning. Um, humans are valuable because of their power to agree unless you [00:57:45] have some greater underpinning that transcends that. And surely no one would say otherwise. There have been plenty in the Judeo-Christian world who have abused those principles, but the principle [00:58:00] exists.
Um, in a secular worldview, good luck defending the idea that human beings somehow should have innate dignity, innate value. Um, it's really tough to defend that, and so you just have to say like, "Well, no, everyone knows it. It's [00:58:15] true." But, but why? And what if someone doesn't agree with you? It's the what value do they have then?
And what if they very strongly disagree with you? What value do they have then? What if they're fighting against your agenda, your cause? What value do they [00:58:30] have then? And, and that's a, that's gonna be a real struggle for the secular worldview to ever answer that. And, and so what happens is you begin to say like, "Well, we don't want to expose," for example, at that university, "our students to other viewpoints.
We want to [00:58:45] impose only ours, um, to them so that they only know our viewpoint, and this is the right one, and it's the..." And, and I think that I agree that that is dangerous, and I would not want it the other direction. I don't, I don't want my students not knowing the other [00:59:00] views and not being exposed to them.
And, um, and so I feel like... And that's, that's probably something of a reversal. I think there's a pendulum swing there. But, um, I think, I think it's, it's good for us, um, [00:59:15] as more, I guess, traditionally conservative in the viewpoint, I don't mean necessarily politically, but traditionally conservative in that we wanna conserve what is good, um, as we move into the future, um, to say, "Okay, what, what is valuable about this, and what is good [00:59:30] about this?
And how are students allowed to say that?" Are... Is, is freedom to speak their opinion or to hold an opinion for real? And, and I, I'm glad that that now represents more the side that I find [00:59:45] myself on, seems like. Now, I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel differently about it. But, um, yeah, I grew very much so.
The, the conversion therapy conversation was You know, when I was young, I mean, you're talking about what we would [01:00:00] call b- basically torture. I mean, torturing somebody to change their sexual feelings, which is not effective, nor is it ethical or moral. Um, the idea that... And I was told if I had a [01:00:15] client come in my office and sit down and say, "I have same-sex attraction feelings, and I don't want these feelings, or at least I don't wanna make my life decisions based on them.
Can you help [01:00:30] me?" That what it was moving toward was that I was gonna be required to say, "No, I cannot help you not feel the feelings or to make life decisions aside from the feelings. I am required to help you accept the [01:00:45] feelings and accept the lifestyle that comes with those feelings." And, and I said, "If that, if that was then required of me, I guess I would have to give up my license because I wouldn't do that for any topic."
There's, there's no [01:01:00] heading in which I would say like, "No, I'm, I'm-- I can't talk with you about what it is that you're looking for and the type of help you're looking for." Like I... "No, uh, there's only one correct answer, and we're not allowed to even discuss the others." [01:01:15] Uh, I believe in the power of conversion.
Now, as a Christian, I want people to convert to following Christ and his life. That's my conversion I'm worried about people on. Who, who or what they're attracted to is not my primary concern. Their identity is my primary [01:01:30] concern. Who they are is my primary concern, and so that's the most of the work we do.
But I remember thinking, like, how wild if m- if one of the licensure boards ends up coming out and saying, "Under those conditions, you only have one answer you're allowed to give." [01:01:45] I thought that's, that's not good science, and it's not good therapy, and it's not even good morality. Like, anyway, so luckily that has not come down, at least not in my state or with my licensure board where they've [01:02:00] been that overt about it.
Um, so and hopefully we never will. Um, but I agree with you. There's been a strong push the last few years towards only there being one correct therapeutic answer to certain questions, [01:02:15] and those are the values that you're supposed to check at the door apparently.
[01:02:17] Stephanies: What would you say to therapists, uh, in more left-wing environments?
I mean, you're, you're kind of in a, a bit of a bubble in the part of Texas that you're in. [01:02:30] Um, I'm sure that the students under your wing feel more protected, um, than, you know, people in blue states, and those are the people I often hear from. They're in grad school, and they're like, "I'm not sure if I can finish this degree."
Or they're [01:02:45] in internships and they're like, "I don't know if I want to be a therapist anymore." And, you know, one thing I forgot to say earlier is that I, I believe that God gives each of us certain gifts, and that the people who tend to be drawn [01:03:00] to professions like counseling, you know, it's because for the most part, I mean, I'm sure there are some people who are actually out of place.
Um, but, uh, God gave them certain gifts that, uh, that find their, one of their best possible [01:03:15] expressions in the counseling profession in terms of the, you know, the structure of the world as it is today. And, and if the world were structured much differently, it might be a, a different structure, but it's still, you know, the gift of deep listening, the gi- gift of [01:03:30] comprehensive understanding and, and of, you know, powerful empathy, powerful theory of mind.
Um- You know, having a, having a heart for redemption, right? Like, there, there are certain kind of qualities to the gifts that make someone a good counselor, and I [01:03:45] have a certain combination of them, and you have a different combination of them, and every good therapist out there is almost like a crystal that reflects, you know, God's light in, in several particular ways, you know?
Some unique to them, some overlapping with other therapists. So I, I think certain people are called to this [01:04:00] work for reasons, and it's, it's a shame if we lose them or if those people don't have anywhere to go, and maybe they decide to... You know, hopefully whatever they decide, they get to give their gifts in some way that's meaningful.
And maybe it doesn't become their profession. Maybe [01:04:15] it's, you know, the, the role that they play as a mentor in someone's life. But, um, you know, for all of those gifted people out there who have a heart for this kind of work, who wanna help people and would be good at it, but who [01:04:30] don't have a place to go like Aletheia for their training, what would you say to them?
[01:04:34] Chris: I'm weird in this way, I guess. My, my mentality is I was worried that I wouldn't have something like this, um, and it took me a while to find a place [01:04:45] where I could grow safely at a place called, um Uh, that was in, it was in Dallas-Fort Worth, and it was the, uh, family wellness center there, um, under my professor at the time, Joey McInvale, where I could learn and grow with freedom.
[01:05:00] Um, and so what I essentially did was create it since I didn't have it. And so I... One is there may be some students out there who need to start the process of creating it and writing bylaws that offer that protection, and the [01:05:15] willingness to, to be that and, and to face down. Like that's, again, what, what first drew me to you and our conversations was that it is, it does require some people to say, "Yeah, this is, this is the stance I'm [01:05:30] taking," and it's, it's not...
Y- you can call it hatred or bigotry, but it isn't those things, and I can't keep you from deciding that you think it is, but I can keep it from being that.
[01:05:42] Stephanies: I don't identify as a [01:05:45] bigot.
[01:05:46] Chris: That's okay.
[01:05:46] Stephanies: I don't identify as a conversion therapist.
[01:05:50] Chris: Yeah, exactly. Um, and that is a, uh... And, and you can't keep yourself from that, and it is risky sometimes, and it is [01:06:00] scary.
I think one of the things that we're discovering is that there is a little bit less teeth than we thought there was going to be in this bite, and some of that is maybe because of the courts. But, um, but I think that's something that we [01:06:15] get to, we get to say, "Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna decide. This is, this is what I think is good, and I...
This is what I believe is loving and appropriate and truth-telling, and that's where I'm gonna stay." And gosh, you know, maybe that costs me [01:06:30] something, but truth and love is worth paying a price sometimes. And, and so that's one I would tell them. I would also say Aside from the immediate joke I almost said was, I mean, you know, do what Davy Crockett did and go to Texas.
[01:06:45] But, uh, not everyone can do that, I guess. I mean, we got lots of space. Um, but, uh, I would say y- you may need to push back on some of it, but you also... I mean, you, most people can do the work [01:07:00] that God has called them to do within the parameters even of a licensure. And if you need to step away, then, then in, in order to do what's right, then you do that.
I mean, that's our first calling, even as licensed people, is to do what's right for our clients. That is our highest calling. [01:07:15] And so, um, we, we always have a defense there, um, that, that we can fall back to. And I think that's part of why a lot of these don't get prosecuted or punished, is because the therapist really was, even if they didn't do what was best, [01:07:30] they believed they were doing what was best most of the time.
And most people don't get into this career path because they want to abuse people or because they're bigoted, biased, agenda-driven people. That's not the typical path into, especially not practice work. Now, [01:07:45] into Austin being at the law level in Texas or wherever that is in your state, yeah, those, a lot of those committees do get captured, um, by sometimes the same people.
Uh, you have the same 30 or 40 people serving in 100 different roles [01:08:00] in your state capital.
[01:08:01] Stephanies: I'm sorry, what about Austin? I-
[01:08:03] Chris: Austin, Texas, that's where our capital is. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's where the laws are passed. Um, sorry, that's what I was referencing. Um, and that we do, we, we've seen it like vividly in the medical world.
It has [01:08:15] come out in the last year powerfully in the medical world that, that, and I do know about this internally from in Austin, that out of, out of several dozen roles in different committees that are passing Texas medical rules, it turns out there [01:08:30] was only a few dozen people serving in all of those roles, and it was totally cross-bred, and if you tried to get in and you had a different opinion, you were kicked out And, and so it was very, what we would call captured [01:08:45] from that perspective by a single ideology.
Um, and so they're the ones passing some laws and making rules, so maybe that's a place where some people need to step in. Um, but I would tell people it is vital that we continue to do what we believe is right, [01:09:00] um, as to the best that we can ethically, morally, all of it. But, you know, and, and I think we can, and I think I'm so far evidenced that that is the case at least, at least here, um, I've been able to do that.[01:09:15]
[01:09:15] Stephanies: What about the people who aren't called to be activists- Yeah ... um, who, who don't feel they have it in them to try to change the laws? Um, they're just looking for good mentorship and [01:09:30] protection of their free speech.
[01:09:32] Chris: Yeah. Um, I would be surprised, maybe I'm wrong, but I'll bet there's at least one or two people in most areas that will come alongside someone [01:09:45] else with that view.
Um, and, and so one is you're gonna have to dig around until maybe you find that person. Um, and I mean, I, I would be happy to help someone if they wanna reach out to me to try to find those people, and I know you do the same kind of thing [01:10:00] sometimes. And so, um, that's gonna be a key is that they start finding someone, some people who they can stand with, um, so they don't have to face the challenges and fears by themselves, um, to find that mentoring and, and stuff.
And if you're in Texas, [01:10:15] 100% reach out to me. Um, I would be happy to talk with somebody about it. Um, and I'm happy to talk with other people too. I just- Can't supervise people outside of Texas. Um-
[01:10:26] Stephanies: Right ...
[01:10:27] Chris: uh, at least not yet. That's a, there's another law that we should talk [01:10:30] about sometime that's ridiculous, but, um,
[01:10:33] Stephanies: What?
What's that?
[01:10:35] Chris: The fact that therapy takes place where the client is, not where the counselor is, so you can't, I can't counsel someone over state lines-
[01:10:44] Stephanies: [01:10:45] Right ...
[01:10:45] Chris: uh, even if they have been my client up until yesterday. It's ri- and it's just ridiculous the, the rulings about that.
[01:10:52] Stephanies: That is another major reason why so many people are like, "Fine, then I'm a coach," right?
Like Exactly. Because- Today I'm a [01:11:00] coach ... these laws, these laws were written before we had the technology to- Right ... do so many video calls online. I'm on video calls online all day every day, whether I'm- Right ... podcasting, which is one day a week, or coaching the other four to five days a week. [01:11:15] Um- Yep ... I, it's, yeah, I mean, the laws are from a time when almost all therapy took place in person.
[01:11:24] Chris: Right. Exactly.
[01:11:25] Stephanies: And now there's, there's PSYPACT, which is a start, but that is- Yep ... [01:11:30] it's, it's in a majority of states now, but not all states, and it only applies to licensed clinical psychologists who apply for PSYPACT. So LPCs, LMFTs, LCSWs all need the equivalent of PSYPACT. I do know [01:11:45] therapists who've gotten licensed in several states, but, uh, and, you know, and sometimes people will ask why not do that, and it's because you have to maintain a license in each of those states.
That's right.
[01:11:53] Announcer: It's not cheap.
[01:11:54] Stephanies: There are renewal fees. Yep. You've gotta, um, you've gotta submit your CEs. [01:12:00] Now, the same CEs will count in most states, but-
[01:12:03] Announcer: Right ...
[01:12:03] Stephanies: it's, it's just an administrative burden and a little bit of a financial burden, too, so you know, you're gonna wanna do that pretty judiciously. Um, you know, I th- I think of Texas as a [01:12:15] refuge where I, I feel like in the event that someone were to actually succeed in getting my board to take away my Oregon license, I feel like I could apply in Texas and it'd probably be [01:12:30] considered a badge of honor there to have lost my license in Oregon.
Like, they'd be like, "Oh, yes, we grant you an honorary- Exactly right ... license." Just like- I, I mean, I don't
[01:12:41] Chris: know. Just, just to thumb our nose, just to thumb our nose at Oregon, right? That's the... [01:12:45] Well, I think it's great. Yeah.
[01:12:47] Stephanies: Do you know anyone- And by the way- ... on the Texas Licensing Board?
[01:12:50] Chris: Yeah. I don't know. Uh, yeah, by our standards, they can be, they can be pretty, uh, they can be pretty, I don't know- liberal in their thinking about stuff [01:13:00] ther- therapeutically especially.
But, um, and you, and in case people don't know, you were on one of our podcasts as well. Oh,
[01:13:07] Stephanies: yeah.
[01:13:07] Chris: Um, and we need to have you back as well especially to kind of see where your, uh, where the journey's continued and the- Were we
[01:13:14] Stephanies: talking about my faith [01:13:15] right when I was like, "Yeah, it's all falling apart right now"?
Is that what happened?
[01:13:17] Chris: Yes. Okay. When you were having the discussion about kind of this Old Testament/New Testament picture, the kind of calm Yahweh-
[01:13:23] Stephanies: Yeah, when I went down the Israel Anderson rabbit hole, and then my husband broke his arm. That was, that was, that was a rough start to the [01:13:30] year.
[01:13:30] Chris: Yes. That was a rough year.
[01:13:32] Stephanies: Yeah. Well, I know people a- I'm in a better place now.
[01:13:34] Chris: You've got, you've got... Well, it's interesting, you've got plenty of people at our, at the church here and who are listeners who are like, "You need to follow up with Stephanie. We wanna know how she's doing." And so-
[01:13:42] Stephanies: Oh, really? Okay.
[01:13:43] Chris: Yes. So we do need to do that.
I will [01:13:45] make sure-
[01:13:45] Stephanies: Okay ...
[01:13:45] Chris: Colson reaches back out to you with the Reconstructed Faith podcast as well.
[01:13:50] Stephanies: Sounds good. That'd be
[01:13:51] Chris: great. Yeah.
[01:13:51] Stephanies: All right. Well, um- Excellent ... so on that note, uh, where all can people find you? So one place is Reconstructed Faith podcast.
[01:13:58] Chris: Yes. [01:14:00] Um, southspring.org, aletheacounseling.com. Um, you can search my name on Substack.
I publish articles regularly, um, on Substack on all different kinds of topics, some therapeutic and some theological. [01:14:15] Um, uh, yeah, that's, those are, that's probably a pretty good start. Um-
[01:14:19] Stephanies: And you've written some books.
[01:14:21] Chris: I have. Uh, my main one is a book called Sex and Marriage, um, which was, um, especially in the Christian world, in the [01:14:30] secular world as well, but wildly in the Christian world, mar- sex is often treated, marriage is treated as a transactional process, the caveman marriage where he wants sex and she wants protection, and so they make a deal, and they both have a commodity they can trade.
And [01:14:45] that's not the biblical picture of marriage. It's just the secular sociological one, but sadly, even a lot of Christian purity culture stuff fell into that, uh, really well. And so this is a book about correcting, um, that [01:15:00] transactional sense that many, many marriages have when it comes to sex. Um, and it doesn't have to be that way, and so, um, and sadly, between therapists and pastors, and especially when you had a little mixture there, a lot of the old [01:15:15] books from the '70s, '80s, and '90s were just train wrecks, and a lot of people's marriages got messed up by them, and it's, it's very heartbreaking.
So this is meant to help unpack some of that in a new way. That's the plan. It's a little bit long, um, but [01:15:30] there was nothing we could, the, nothing that we wanted to leave out, and if we did three books, one on marriage, one on intimacy, and one on sex, everyone would just buy the third one anyway. And so it was like, we better put them all together and make people read all the way through.
So.
[01:15:42] Stephanies: I will include all of those links in the show notes. Um, [01:15:45] Pastor and Counselor Chris Legg, thank you again so much for joining me. It's been a pleasure.
[01:15:49] Chris: It is a pleasure every time. Thank you, Steph.
[01:15:52] Stephanies: Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a [01:16:00] moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice.
And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome [01:16:15] theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair.
[01:16:30] Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrmann, [01:16:45] "With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:17:00] [01:17:15] world."