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A Lot of Words is a conversational deep-dive podcast hosted by Pastor Brett Schoeneck and Pastor Matt Smith, created for listeners who want biblical clarity applied to real-life questions. Each episode pulls apart the questions people actually ask—not the ones theologians wish people were asking.
From tough topics like anxiety, AI, politics, prayer, sexuality, and suffering to practical questions about how to read the Bible, how to think Christianly in a digital world, and how to follow Jesus in a noisy culture, Brett and Matt aim to give listeners honest, pastoral, and intellectually serious answers.
The show blends theology, humor, cultural analysis, and pastoral insight—inviting you into a conversation that is purposeful, biblical, and surprisingly entertaining. If you’ve ever wanted a podcast where you can actually get your questions answered, welcome to A Lot of Words.
Is Modern Worship Music Sinful?
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[00:00:00] I had a Christian buddy say, he does, does Lent, there's something missing in your faith if you think Lent is great. What would you say to someone who said, Hey, I'm leaving this church because I don't like the music at that church. It's, you're an idiot. Yes, it's shallow. There's no genre of music that's more biblical than another.
But sing out. Sing out Joy to the Lord. Like, let God hear your voice. And to not have instruments. Instruments are sinful. Like it, it's just so weird. It's just going beyond the Bible. Welcome back to the, a lot of words podcast, answering the questions that people actually ask. I'm Brett Shanik. Join with me as always, pastor Matt Smith, senior pastor at Bravas Road Church.
Matt, you came in just a hot little pickle this morning. I walked in the building, your door was open. You're just scrolling on your phone. Uh, tell us why, just your, your Easter, uh, promotion fatigue that you have. No, I can't. You can't. I shouldn't, but you will. I just get irritated. Okay. Look, I think church is great.
I [00:01:00] love church. Like I obviously a pastor. God's church is great. I just get so fatigued by Consumeristic Church that are like, come out to our church. Let's just tell you what we have for you. As if they're selling an experience at a, like a cruise ship or something. We have this, we have this, and then it's usually it's Pastor Bob and Sue, like it's the wife's, the pastor too, and the whole thing.
And then I, I can't help myself. I always click on it. I wanna find out about the church. And it's always like, we want you to know that there's a purpose in your life and it's the same tired. Like plum. That's been out ever since I was a pastor. And I don't know, like God is so much more than this. I just get irritated by it.
I would love to just see a guy, just that I don't know. I dunno what my, my problem is, I'm not, I'm not even talking to you privately. We're on a camera, so I don't know why I'm saying this. It's just fatiguing because it's so overtly cynically. Consumeristic. Yeah. It's just, that's the best I, I can go off.
I'm not going to, I gotta, I'm gonna [00:02:00] resist that. Wow. Impressive. Yes. I have to. Well, it worked out well. I, uh, I have a question that was written in about Easter, but not about this topic, but just since you were, I was gonna put all the questions at the end, but since you were already Oh, you're changing that.
Um, yeah, you were like a, this is so lively. Go for digging holes there in your office. This is, uh, uh, was sent in by Paul. Uh, the subject is Lent. He asks, I had a Christian buddy say he does, does lent. With the Ashes and all. It says it helps him focus on the Easter season in Christ. The question is, should a Christian participate in Lent, what should our response be to Lent as a whole?
Like, he's not a Catholic. He's not a Catholic. Yeah. I don't think he should do Lent. I think it's stupid. Yeah. Can you expand on that please? No, I'm just kidding. Um, no, like the whole, you, you can participate. It's just like when people take, I'll give you an analogy. So when people start celebrating the Jewish, uh, Fest Feasts mm-hmm.
Yeah. You can do it. It's just, there's this [00:03:00] sense of, I'm feeling closer, more authentic, and it's all about, it's all a mechanism for you. And I get it. It's just like going back to your, it literally the whole thing tells me with the Jewish festivals and the rest, it's like, man, I like riding my bike. But you know, sometimes I love just putting training wheels back on it because it's really fun.
I'm like, it, that's how the whole thing is viewed when someone's like, I like celebrating Lent. And I'm like, what? What is, gosh, I'm so spicy right now. You are. But lemme just be honest. Yeah, do it. Whoever asked the question that said that, I'm sure if they're my friend. 'cause I don't know which Paul is. So just I'll say, Hey, cool.
But whoever you are, you're nice. You're probably great, but there's something missing in your faith if you think Lent is great. That's just what it's, I mean, in Catholicism it makes sense because of the way that they view tradition, the way that they view, um, growing righteousness, being something that's infused, not imputed.
I mean there's all this stuff, but like as the Christian, all things for the glory of God. If someone wants to participate something, it's not a sin to do it. It just seems silly, I guess is the [00:04:00] best way I'd say it. It just seems silly. I don't know if that's a good answer. Um, it's not a sin. I definitely would think prescribing it would be something I would highly say not to do, but it's kinda like the book of common prayer we talk about that can be helpful.
Mm-hmm. Um, reading someone's prayers and stuff. But again, um, sometimes things can be more silly and not helpful. And if this person says it's helpful. All right. But what's missing in your faith that this lent is adding something to you, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Like, so yeah. Most likely a low view of scripture, low view of the fellowship.
Yeah. And I don't, and I'm, I'm in a great mood, by the way. I don't mean to be spicy to Paul. Paul, you're great. Probably. Um, this is Paul's friend. He's writing in for a friend. Oh, yeah. His friend needs to repent. Just kidding. Yeah. I don't know. I wouldn't celebrate Lent. I don't think it's a good idea. All right.
Yeah, we'll get some more, uh, questions from you, the people at the end of the podcast. We have a lot to talk about. We have a new and come out, wait really quick because I'm talking about E Sir. So if you're in the San Diego area, if you're within a five hour drive, uh, come out to Barabbas Road Church, uh, this [00:05:00] Easter.
Um, we're gonna preach. We're not gonna have an Easter egg hunt. We're not gonna have Easter bunnies. We're not even gonna have a photo spot. Maybe we'll have a photo spot. I don't know. There's nothing for you here except the word of God. Yeah. No. Come out. We'll preach a sermon. It's a great church. You're definitely invited.
I would love to meet some people that came out from the podcast. Uh, it's barabbas.com. It's probably gonna be here. But come out this Sunday, come out Easter Sunday. We'd love to see you. Mm-hmm. And, uh, come say hi. And that you came from the podcast. That'd be pretty. That's great, Brad. There's my invite. I like that.
Yeah. And then if you want Easter Eggs, shadow Mountain has a Saturday night service that my family goes to. I mean, yeah, you can have, I mean, it takes, is that bad? Should I not be doing that? No, you should. Well, how about this? It, if we're gonna have Easter eggs, they should all be empty. At least make the tombs empty.
I mean, yeah. No, I want candy. Well just throw it. What if the tomb, I can't say it. We're gonna have a gun that shoots candy at you in the thing. Yeah, that's it. Come out to church. That's great. Uh, alright. Today we're gonna be talking [00:06:00] about, uh, music, worship, mere Music Church and Culture. Me Mere music, which will be coming out soon.
No. Well, uh, sometime 2027. I'm sure. I want you to write that book. Yeah. Well it depends if, it depends if people get this book Me membership. Yeah. Buy that book. Yeah. Shay said every time we mention it, he is gonna put a lower third up. And so now Matt's gonna try to mention the book a hundred times during this episode.
What, what book Me Membership. Yeah. Lemme membership. Wait right here. That one. Okay. What about if it's up there? I just, I had to. Okay. That's ridiculous. Yeah. Um, alright, music, we're gonna get into it. I'm gonna start with a overarching question for you. Uh, I think this is a big one and I was talking to your brother yesterday about it because he's at a great church and it really shows that words and how you say things matter.
So this, these are a lot of softballs that I know, but I think it'll be good for the listener to hear. So is worship just singing in music or [00:07:00] have we reduced it too much? When someone says, uh, when they say, let's worship. Yeah. And they only think music is that too much of a reduction of what worship is?
Is music. Only worship is worship only music. Well, I think the question waits it obviously. I mean, even an even everyone would probably answer that properly. The worship's more than music, I think with the questioners asking and I think is helpful is when the nomenclature, the words we're using to describe what we're doing on Sunday morning, the music portion as worship.
Let's start off with what's appropriate about it. It is worship. It is worship through singing. Um, that's important, but it is worship. But we usually refer to it as its own category because the sermon is just as much worship as the music is. The, um, fellowship before church is just as much worship as the music is.
So we're coming together corporately to worship God through corporate [00:08:00] singing and corporate fellowship and the hearing of the word, the breaking of bread and all that stuff. So all of it is worship. Um, and so when I think when we call music worship. Of course it's not wrong to do so, but usually we do so as a distinct category that's separate than other things.
I, I think that's a major problem. I think it, like, it matters, for example, a separate note, but like in our church, another book is, um, instead of mere membership is, uh, I wanna do mere ministry. You know, because lots of times at church they call people volunteers. I hate that word. No. One, you're not a volunteer at church.
This is your church. Uh, the pastor serves, you know, equips the saints for the work of the ministry. It's their ministry. Same thing with, with worship. The, the words we use matter. So we've often said, when we used to have like a screen, it would say like, please stand for worship through music or through singing.
Um, which would qualify it as a kind of worship, I think. Um, again, I don't wanna be pedantic, I don't wanna like nitpick, uh, but. I think we communicate to [00:09:00] people that this is a moment of this thing called worship that's unique. And what happens is, so like what we're doing is singing to under God, right?
Songs, hymns, spiritual songs. But I think we create this new category of this thing, this experience, and then we waited with all these other emotions and feelings. And so some churches you'll see that's where the smoke machine comes in this, this idea of an experience. This is the moment where God comes in and you meet him and I'm like, but God's in you.
He's in the church Like that. The soundtrack doesn't like God's not waiting for the decor to drop, for him to come. To you and, and you're not ushering yourself into his presence. Like you're, you're with him. And so all the normal things people will say about that, I highly dis dislike. And furthermore, since you caught me on a spicier day, half the songs we're singing about the Holy Spirit coming down.
And I'm like, can you grow up, read the Bible, the Holy Spirit? It dwells you come down from where like, like again in acts like [00:10:00] he's already in us. Like, what Bible are you reading? And so everyone's sitting there with the hands up and I get it. There's nothing wrong with lifting your hands up and doing stuff and feeling is great.
Um, but there's a cynicism. That's that word again, the cynicism of just aiming at creating a feeling and a sensation. But again, that sensation tends to validate. Just like we talked about in the book Mere membership, uh, we talked about the alt alter calls. We tend to aim at the thing we measure. And so the same thing with worship.
If we say that well worship it should be something that we experience and feel, then churches tend to manufacture that feeling. And the whole thing we're actually doing is displaced. We're singing unto God. And, you know, I could keep going, but I, I mean, that's, that, that's how I answer that question. And I think before I just go in a rant, like, yeah, it should be called whatever you want.
I mean, it is worship, but it is, you know, worship through singing. I think that's a, a key element because the key element on the book, unlike mere membership that we're gonna do mere [00:11:00] worship, uh, worship is ultimately seen in our obedience to Christ and our joy for, for, you know, in our life. So John Piper, one of the best things he's ever done.
Is he took the, the statement from the Westminster Confession of Faith that said, what is the chief end a man? Right? And it says to, to glorify God and enjoy him forever. And Piper wrote the book, desiring God, but the key in his whole book that made that book worthwhile. Forget the Christian hedonism stuff.
Like all that was more sensationalism. But the thing that was so profound was he really made a great case that what it should say is the chief end a man is to glorify God by and join him from not. And, but by that the the chief. Reason we exist is to glorify God through our joy of him. That's worship.
And that comes in the self denial and the obedience and the rest, and singing is just the, um, what do you wanna call it? It's the cream on top. It's the thing that comes from a life [00:12:00] of worship. So if you come on Sunday, the you, you can't help. Like when you're happy, you hum to yourself. Like there's the idea that singing is like the completion of a joy.
CS Lewis said like, when you see a sunset or a sunrise and you exclaim that, it's beautiful. It almost completes like the, the verbalizing of it, of what you're seeing. And you know, there's a gratitude to it. And I, I think sometimes we forget that, where we come in and we're dry or whatever, and then we come in and we wait for this experience to fill us up and to feed us.
That is not. What that is supposed to be. And so, again, we, we, uh, kind of inherit these boxes. We never really examine them, but the, the church's corporate singing is meant to be a, a gathered expression in one voice, singing praises to God. And, and there's, we can get into a lot. There's so much to talk about.
So I'll let you ask the question. Well, yeah. There's a lot of words to say. A lot of words. There's a lot of words. What, what's the word you used earlier today? 'cause Pickle Gap. Oh, pickle Weasel. There's not a, that's not a word. It's not a word. It's just two words. I, but, but I just can't up with the scenario that you put together in your day, [00:13:00] you woke up, it's somehow in your mind the word Pickle Weasel came up.
I just can't even understand the context that that would come up. Like you're just going along and Pickle Weasel came up. I was just, I was like, those are two funny words. No, but wait, wait. Like how? Help me understand. Put together, I was driving here. You're driving in the car. Yep. Is music on, uh, just dead silence.
You're just driving in dead silence and you're like, pickle weasel. This is great word. This is true. Tony, my friend recently told me, I was telling him, yeah, I, I just study in silence now. And he is like, are you a psycho? I like that. I mean, and I was like, I don't know. I was like, I started drive a lot more in silence too.
Okay, so you were driving in silence and then the word that came out of your mind was Pickle Weasel. Oh, oh, man. It was, uh, it was great. That is the most, that is this most psychotic thing. I, I cannot even just, that's fun. If someone like, looks over like, I wonder what he's thinking about. No person is at a stoplight next to you thinking, Hmm, pickle weasel isn't interesting word.
Like Yeah. Uh, that's what I think about Slim flam. That's word. Ah, love Flynn. Flam. All right. Sorry, I didn't mean to, you mentioned a lot of words. No, we, we could have an [00:14:00] episode about what's going on in my brain, but that'd be Beas. Way too many clicks. No music. Um, with music being. You'll unpack this a bit, but it's such a, um, I wanna say divisive.
It's such a divisive, um, you could say divisive. You sound, you sound more intelligent. I know. That's why I hate it. I hate that people only say it like that because they sound tge intelligent. Oh, it's just so annoying. Mm-hmm. Um, what, what would you, I guess I'll ask this, what would you say to someone who said, Hey, I'm leaving this church because I don't like the music at that church.
We've, we've had that at this church. We've had that recently at this church. What would your response to that be? Oh, gosh. You picked, this is the wrong day for me to say this. I just wrote that down while you were talking. I just thought it, yeah, no, I just think the, it's, you're an idiot. Yes. It's shallow.
It's a shallow thing. I mean, first of all, when you say you don't like it, you're making the assumption that it's for you. Hmm. It's not for you. It's for as unto God. It's not, I mean, it it, you, there's a benefit to you. [00:15:00] And then secondly, people are allowed to have preferences. That's fine. But I think, yeah, I think again, can churches sell themselves as a consumeristic experience?
So they'll have, we have this kind of music for you and that kind of music for you as if you like change the radio. And I think one of the things we forget is up until recently in history, music was never a private thing. Like Right. So music was always something that was communal always. And so you didn't pick music, you didn't have your own music.
Gimme a break. But then once we had, you know, the radio and personal radio, like even growing up, you barely even had your own music because we had to like do mixed tapes. Actually, I had to listen to a song. I remember that one, the Robinhood one I mentioned. Everything I do to you, I wanted to get it. And some other ones, I remember waiting for it to come on the radio so you could record it.
Mm-hmm. And the, the, the mix tape. But even still like the idea now that we all have sort of streaming and everything sort of AI generated towards your preferences and it makes playlists. We have our own stations in our channels and so music has become. A very [00:16:00] individualized thing, and it's, it's totally alien to how the Bible's viewing this.
The idea that we would have shared songs, um, you'd show up and when you show up at church and, okay, here's the biggest thing when Jesus talks about, I mentioned it last week, self-denial as being a blessing. Often we're so self-centered, and I don't mean this in the like mean sense, I mean the technical sense.
We're just self-centered. We're constantly thinking about self and it's oppressive because we're a terrible master for ourselves. And one of the joys of the Christian faith is the blessing of self forgetfulness. Of that. You can finally just, again, humility isn't thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less.
And so what a joy to go think upon God and think upon others, and that's in that very environment. They're like, well, what are my preferences for music? What are my preferences for the kinds of people I wanna be around? What are my preferences? Those things are all anathema to like what we're saying.
There's a joy in you not picking the song, you hearing it, singing along with it and saying, amen. Basically you check out and say, I'm gonna go with [00:17:00] the congregation. Mm-hmm. And sing the song that's there. And it doesn't matter if I like it or don't like it. And then one of the things that really hit me on this is when we were first starting the church, I wasn't, I was trying to practice preaching before I became a pastor.
I was trying to get reps in, so I used to go to, and if you're a an aspiring preacher, I'd recommend this. And so far I'd recommend it to everybody. I haven't seen anyone really do it, by the way. But if you're an aspiring preacher, I would recommend you go and call up all of the like retirement homes.
Around the town and ask if they need someone to come preach a sermon to the folks there. And they do. They need it all the time. They'll never say no. A lot of these folks don't have people visiting them. They're, they want people to show up. You show up on a Sunday and people come. Now it's hard to preach in that environment because people are falling.
Like you're, when there's six people in the room and one person's like this, like asleep and stuff, it's a little intimidating. But I remember going, and we would, these folks were so sweet and I really got a lot of experience and really it was [00:18:00] just a loving, lovely time. But they'd wanna do music and then someone would get on the piano and play it.
And I don't even, I didn't grow up knowing any of the songs. Like, let's do you know, great. Is I faithfulness? And I'm like, I didn't know that at first. So I'm like listening to 'em sing and it was all off key. And you're with folks that are, you know, maybe missing the lyrics. And I'm sitting there going with it out of a book and maybe we're on the wrong page.
We're trying to f and I'm like, God receives this. This is as pure as the angels. And, and notice we were all singing. Um, it really affected kind of the way I view it, and so not, I'm not saying that we can't have awesome music out in the world. We can't have, but most of the music we see is performative.
I'm sure you'll ask that. So, but the, the, the church service, the, the idea is that it is, it is the, the body of Christ, not the band that's producing the singing. And so the band is supposed to lead. So at our church, we make sure the band is on the floor. They're the same level as the people. It's just a way [00:19:00] to communicate that.
Again, they're part of the congregation and they're leading the congregation, but it is the congregation who's the main instrument in singing, which really indicates like the kinds of songs we pick. But anyways. I forget where I started, but it was good. That was great. Yeah. Yeah. I was going off of something, but it was just, I just think that in general Yeah.
The, yeah. The body, not the band is an, is a great Yeah. Distinctive. We, that's one of the distinctive at our church. And I, I guess the big thing is there's so many reasons to divide because everyone has really strong preferences and Mm. One of the things I was concerned with is that there's nothing, preferential preferences are different than principles, and you should not divide over preferences.
Really? You should not. So if someone says, I don't want to listen to it, the, I don't wanna be at the church because I don't have a preference for the music. That is, that is a shallow thing. Um, and that's just, I mean that honestly, and it's shallow, like it is a, an immature thing. Now, if someone says, I don't wanna stay, because in principle the music is.
You know, unfaithful to the [00:20:00] Lord, or it's not like, okay, that's a different, that's, that's a valid reason to go, that there's a principle here that's being upset with, but just mere preference. Um, you can go by mere preference, but I wouldn't, I'd be embarrassed if I were that person to say that's why they went.
If that makes sense. Yeah. I, I have 31.2 follow-up questions. Yeah. Uh, mix tapes. I remember when they did it publicly and they made Jock jams and it was like a, it was a professionally done mix tape. That's what Jock Jams is. Really? Yeah. 'cause it took all these different artists and put them on one album and it was like, here's your pump up songs.
I, and I listen to Jock Jams. I like Kids love jocks. Oh yeah. That's how we got the kids up in the morning. It's trick to rock a rhyme, to rock a rhyme. We, we, we would have, let's rhyme. It's tricky. My family could be in the middle of like a meltdown. Something's happening and I'll just put on Jock jams and everyone will immediately stop what they're doing and start dancing.
So of course it's, you have to, it's an amazing album. Uh, that's, um, with that, what would you say to someone who, I'll start with this. If someone says, I, ISI, I don't like this church's preaching, but I stay [00:21:00] because of the, the music. As a counter to what you said, also Imma also immature, it's the same category preference.
When, when you say, I don't like their preaching, what do you mean? Like mm-hmm. Some people say, well, I can't under, like, this happens at our church all the time. Someone's like, well, I have a hard time following along and I'm gonna say this in the nicest way possible. It's your problem. Like, if you can't follow along the sermon, you need to fix that because little children can follow along.
Like, there's something you gotta fix that like, the idea isn't like, I want baby church like you. It just shows like our understanding of what this is it like, and just think about what we're saying. Like this is the word of God. And God promises everything to knowing it. And you're like, okay, so I wanna know what this is.
If I said to you, Hey, here's this book, and in it there's an instruction where you're gonna get $20 billion, and I'm like, or I have the CliffNotes version that might work. You're like, no, I want the real thing and I want the person that's gonna gimme I, you, you listen to every detail because you cared about knowing it.
You knew it meant something. So if someone's like, ah, I'm having a hard time understanding, it's 'cause you're not paying attention. [00:22:00] So in our church, we have an inductive Bible study class that happens before church. And I highly recommend it because it gets you thinking about the text. It gets you thinking about, so you can see it, but it matters that you want to see it.
And there's not one person at our church that wants to understand that doesn't mm-hmm. The issue is people that don't wanna understand, they wanna be passively fed. But I keep reminding people, church service and sermons in particular, they're not passive entertainment. There's an activity of you having to engage it on purpose.
Right. So that's my first part about that. I don't know. Yeah. I, I, I'll get to my. Kind of, do you think it's pandering for a church when they, this is really popular during the worship wars. They have a contemporary service and a classic service. It's of course pandering. Okay. It's pandering to the max. Like, and, and, and, and I mean that by, they would say contemporary, it would have like new hip music, a band that can, that classic would have hymns and older people and they're basically, they're more or less making two churches.
And why? But notice why. Yeah, because we want to, and they'll say it. They'll say just unabashed, say, well, we wanna attract the younger people. Yeah. So we'll [00:23:00] use the contemporary search. I'm like the word attract. If, here's the big thing, the big rule of thumb, what you draw them with is what you draw them to.
If you draw them with entertainment, you're drawing them to entertainment. I mean, so now you have to keep entertaining them. I'm like the, the draw has to be the word of God. It has to be the gospel, it has to be Christ. Um, we are transformed by the reading of our minds, not through the experience. Like there's an, there's a sense in which we have to value that.
So I think one of the things as pastors we, like, if you're a pastor hearing this, you have to have the courage to help shape your people's affections. In other words, you don't just answer their affections, because that's literally definition of an like raising up teachers for tickle to tickle their ears.
We like, so there's, is it fine for someone to desire contemporary? Absolutely. There's nothing wrong with, like, if we had contemporary music, and by the way, most of the contemporary music is like 30, 40 years ago. Anyways, I don't know how it's contemporary. But anyways, if we had, let's say that that type of music great and you wanted more hymn style music, well then [00:24:00] get over it.
Like, it doesn't matter. It's like whatever the church is singing, just sing it. The, the key, I would say that. Really should define what kind of music we have. Principally, not preferentially, is that it's singable like. So one of the things I think with a lot of the modern music that it's really good. So you know, there's that, what's that one song?
Like 10,000 million Reasons. I love it though. It's really, really good. And the problem is it's great to listen to. You could sing in your car. I've watched churches usually want to imitate the big ones that have the professional, and then the people on stage have all the costumes. They have the, what's the Hillsong hat thing and the bouncing.
Yeah, they're on stage doing it and they can't hit the notes. So how do you expect the people, and so they'll turn the volume up. And so that's a lot of, it's just faking out life. Like you need to hear the people singing, you're supposed to hear voices and so you turn up the volume. And if they're picking songs that are performative, you know, with a lot of like hard notes to hit a lot of variants.
I mean, you're [00:25:00] really not. Um, like, so for example, some people make fun of, uh, hymns and they're right. They'll say, well, the hymns aren't, are contemp, were contemporary music at the time. They just came from barroom ballads. And I'm like, yep, they did. But you know what's interesting about that time? All the music at that time was pretty singable.
Mm-hmm. Because everyone just sang it. Like, it, it, I don't have a preference. Okay. So I don't have a preference for a lot of things. But if you're being perfectly just hardcore about it, I mean, most of our songs would sound like what you'd sing in the army as you're marching. Mm-hmm. You know, it's just, it's a singable thing that we can all sing our voice.
Do you really think? And having our voices are gonna lift up together and we're like, uh, like it just doesn't, we're gonna be singing, you know, songs in a key that we can sing. And so, um, and that, that, that indicates like kind of the, like, could you have a heavy metal? Could you have rap? Could you have, yeah, you can have all those things, but can we all sing rap?
Can you s can you imagine, you know, grandma Pappy being like, first I was a thought like. [00:26:00] Maybe not, you know, I ideas that love that idea, it'd be great, but nothing's against, but here's the thing, nothing's against those genres of music. Mm-hmm. Nothing's against Christian concerts that you go to to hear.
Um, it's that the congregational singing on Sunday mornings is a unique category that is the congregation's supposed to be singing. And so what I'm saying is super modest. It shouldn't be disagreed with Yeah. It, it allows for any genre because well, if it's the body, not the band, it is if, if this, yeah. If, if the whole congregation can sing this song Yeah.
Then we're okay with it. Right. I think that's just it. I think what you said, you're trying to, what, what I was concerned with, with that word, the body, not the band being the instrument is to help the next generation at our church, not. React to our preferences, not just inherit them and not just rebel against them.
Mm-hmm. I want 'em to see the target we're aiming at and then that can shift. Now in the middle of this conversation, there's lots of room for preference still, and everyone's gonna still get upset each other about [00:27:00] preference. I mean, but that's not my issue. Right? The issue is what are we aiming at? And then the same thing you mentioned with preaching.
What we're aiming at should be making the word, like preaching the word. That's what Paul tells Timothy. So if someone says, well, I don't like the way he does it, that's a preference. I'd be embarrassed to say that. If you say, well I don't like that 'cause it's not biblical, okay, that's a reason to go. Or it's, um, the emphasis is too, you know, um, unbiblical or it's simple, but you, that's an issue that you should be able to tell someone about, you know?
So anyways, I think that preference is fine. You're allowed to have 'em. I just wouldn't make those valid reasons. Too much, you know, you can. Mm-hmm. Uh, lemme say something if, if in a, we don't have just one church in a city, you're allowed to prefer one over another because you just like it and you don't have to make up reasons why one's terrible and the other one's great.
Um, you could just say, I just like this one better. Great. It's a, it's a shallow, uh, reason, but it's not a sinful reason. Just embrace it and own it. But [00:28:00] anyways, that's my view. That's good. My last question in this same realm, I was talking to a brother last week, godly guy, um, and they're, um, moving, but he had mentioned, um, you know, just he had brought someone new and the, the music kind of turned him off, um, here at our church.
Yeah. But, oh, great. That, that said, um, you know, I, I've heard this before of like. We need to make the music more like the music of the culture because that's what new people are used to and they want to hear. Yeah. How would you, and I obviously responded in kind. Yeah. But how would you respond to someone?
Yeah, so I, there's a lot of like, there's a lot of things that sound good, but again, if you press the implications of what they're saying there, there it's more disturbing. Again, the church is an alien thing. We're supposed to be set apart, not by our preferences, but by the word of God and who we are. And so the argument that we're trying to appeal to the world, there's a few things.
It says, first of all, it's saying that the reason people aren't in church is that the church doesn't look like the world enough. And I'm like, if that's what you're implying, [00:29:00] that's dumb, right? Like, the reason people aren't in church is because they don't like God. Mm-hmm. No, they, I like God, I just don't like your church.
Okay. I guarantee you talk to that person. They don't like the God of the Bible. But then secondly, we don't, again, we don't attract them that way. But then let's go back to this one. A lot of, there's a parable there. That Paul gives kind of a parable ish example he gives in, um, one Corinthians three where he talks about building and he says, look, you know, we talked about wood, hay, stubble, and straw, and, and then gold, silver, you know, precious metals.
And he says, we're all building on the same foundation. And, and the idea is like you think of these churches that build up very rapidly. And again, I love big churches. The first church in the Bible was a mega church. I'm, there's nothing wrong with those things. It's just making disciples means it's hard work.
It, it's, it's, um, a disciple. Someone who really loves the Lord. They're going to run to churches that preach the word. They're going to overlook things that are maybe against their preferences because they know what's important. Um, but [00:30:00] consumeristic Christians are at best ignorant and at worst, not Christians.
Because if you're a consumer, you're going to get something. As a product. You're, the church becomes a means to some other end, which is always serving yourself. It's always self. This, it's, how does this help me do this? How does it help my career? My happiness, my joy, my, and yes, those things are benefits of Christ, but you get Christ.
He's real. It's true. And so when we start to organize that churches, there's many that are quick to respond to that, right? So they'll say, well, we're going to give this to you and we're gonna have that to you. Kinda like we started with the Easter thing. Mm-hmm. And music is the same way. But here's the problem.
Think about how unloving and terrible it is to say, okay, we wanna attract all these nonbelievers to sing. Okay, but what are we doing in singing? We're singing unto God. Now think about Exodus. The mountain shaking and the, the thunder and the sound of trumpets and no one could even approach the mountain unless they die.
And then you get into [00:31:00] Hebrews 12, 13 and Paul, or not Paul, the author of Hebrews, is saying, look, we've come to something even more crazy than Mount Zion. We've come to Mount Zion and the assembly of the saints and the the city. I mean the, the all the statement is so high about what church is. And so we're saying like, what think people forget is that God is present, not because we hit the cord, not because we have the smoke.
He's present in us and we are singing unto him as a congregation. We're singing to a God that is holy and lovely and wonderful, but he is a God of holiness. And if I want an unbeliever to be in our congregation singing comfortably to a God who has wrath towards them, I'm not helping them at all. That's like putting someone in a cage and saying, Hey, let's go pet the bear.
It's, it's absurd. They, it is a terrible thing. And if, if the church is doing that, they are ignorant, they probably mean, well, I don't think that, I mean, I just look, singing is, anyone can sing, but God is there and it's just, it's a big deal. And if you're not a believer at [00:32:00] church, there's an element that you ought to feel a bit alien and you want people to come to church and you want them to hear the Bible and you want it to be open to them.
But they should recognize that what the church is doing is something that they're kind of not part of. They're, they're auditing, they're watching something. They don't just come in right away and be like, oh, this is cool. Um, and the other thing you go back to is a lot of people say, well, I feel this and I feel that.
And I'm like, that's true. There's nothing wrong with feeling. It's just when you go to concerts, you can go to very secular concerts and people can feel the same way. They can swoon. At a concert, none of those things are validating that what you're doing is correct or Right. So the, the, the congregational singing, um, is a, is a, is a thing.
It is not just something we make up. We don't get to redefine what it is. It is something we're doing as under the God. Now can you again, again go out to the concerts and go out and do Yeah, absolutely. Can you make it so everyone see? Yeah, absolutely. Could the music be full of excellence? Yes, it should.
Um, can the, can the genre be different? Absolutely. Um, but whatever it is we're singing unto God, like [00:33:00] most anyone that gets that should not be too concerned about. The preference is in the genre. We're just not art. We're an untrained people in this regard. And I think that there, we're ignorant about it and we're living in a, a very sort of, it, it's, the Bible calls it sensualism.
Mm-hmm. We ba basically it, it asserts truth by our feelings. And I, I have sensations. Oh, I know God was there because I got the shiver. Right. I know God is there. Like that's not what faith is. And so. Anyways, I'm, I'm pro good, you know, music and this and that, but Sunday service is about the congregation singing.
That's just basically it. And if you're not part of the congregation, you should see that and you can join in and that's fine. But it shouldn't be there for entertainment, I guess, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. I, I pet a bear once. You what? I pet a bear. Well, yeah. I mean, I was on a, I was on a riverboat casino in Biloxi, Mississippi, and they had a bear in a cage and you could walk by.
It was a cage. It was in a cage. Yeah. Well, okay, I can beat this one. What about the video? [00:34:00] There's this video of these Russian dudes that are training in the woods and they're trying to do this thing, and behind them, a bear is pushing up and down on the tree for them to like, and I'm like, how is this possible?
And I, I looked at it. It's not ai. This is before ai. Mm-hmm. It's not a guy in a bear suit. It's just these Russian dudes in the winter and there's a bear pushing up and down on this tree. It is. It's the best video ever. I can't, I If you find that video and you watch it, I mean, it's, it'll change your life.
Yeah. I mean it's, what is it? I mean, is that how people train and rush out? Oh my goodness. That's great. Riverboat casinos in Biloxi, Mississippi will change your life too. No, no, no. Uh, that's not, I had to one up you with this other story. Like, you're not a Russian guy training with the guy. No, but I live that for real.
It'd be different if you were training with the Russian guys. No, I know. Mine was a real life experience. Yeah. Okay. Um, so to clarify, uh, there's no genre of music that's more biblical than another. Well, okay. I think some of the things we make mistakes about. Here's a, here's a [00:35:00] mistake I think people make there.
We, we tend to think of music sometimes. Like, so some people have their hands up. Some people are like, that's fine. You can do whatever you want. Like. But again, you're part of the congregation, so you know, you kinda wanna read the room a tiny bit. It matters that you're together with everybody. This, again, when you show up on Sunday, you're not having a private moment with the Lord, you're part of a congregation.
My suggestion is you try to like, be part of the congregation. Um, and sometimes you'll be the person next to someone singing really loud and you might be like, uh, so, but sing out. Sing out in joy to the Lord. Like, let God hear your voice. Um, but what was the question again? Um, is there a genre of music that's more biblical?
Yeah. Well, I think sometimes we forget that. Okay, so since we say we all wanna sing, we tend to think of like hymns as respectable, right? Um, I don't think the music, it ought to be reverent, but reverence doesn't mean res. Like, it doesn't mean, uh, boring. Boring. Like, okay, for example, think about David dancing before the Lord.
Now [00:36:00] again, he's not in a church service, but he is worshiping the Lord. But when you think about the rhythm and the beats of like ancient. You know, ancient Mid East, it's not like what you would think of today. It would be like ba but like syncopated, like beats and rhythms that were like, yeah, drop that track, Matt.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, you want, you like, so you wanna have like a really authentic beat. You want f instead of lent, let's have this, you come into church like ba ba like fiddle on the roof. That's, that was Jewish. I mean, that's what we're talking about. And so I, I think sometimes we tend to think, well, this is how it was and there's not, music doesn't need to be somber.
Um, but we're not trying to aim what, like there's a, there's needs to be a sense, we're like, okay, we can do this. Let's just stick with this. So like, you know, in our church we tend to use piano because we have a big piano. It looks nice. We don't have a huge stage, we don't have a big stage. Um, it's piano's a relatively easy instrument to sing along to.
Mm-hmm. Um, and it tends to not dominate the room so much. Right. So, um, could we [00:37:00] have a piano song, other songs where we're up there and we're all singing together? Like, you could do it. I mean, you'd have to train the people though, I think is the point, because that would be like music they'd have at that time.
Like when you go to Africa right now, for some reason, every time we're in Africa, it's, you know, when you get the keyboard Yeah. They have those, those beats on the keyboard. Yeah. And everywhere you go in Africa, you get on the bus. In Africa, this is the song plane. You go to a place and they have music.
This is, it's like they have, everyone in Africa has the same beat and it's that beat on the. The keyboard's, like,
and they just, and then Sunday service comes up and they'll put that song on and then they'll all sing. And I'm like, okay, I'm in it. Like that's, yeah, that's the music of Africa, right? It was the best. Um, and maybe in the, in the early, you know, in the mid East, you're like, it's like ba I'm like, okay, great.
And so in America, like, what is it? I don't know. I mean, I, I think sometimes people try to be so clever and this, that, I think the goal is to get everyone singing. It, it, it doesn't have to be complex. [00:38:00] It's, we need to sing unto God. And if you pay attention to what you're singing and, and do it, there's a sense of you having to actively engage into it.
Um. Mm-hmm. So, and again, the, the music that often that we sometimes really think is so moving to us is not invalidated by that. It's just that we need performance and music. They had people in the Old Testament that did those things. A He-Man Yeah. Was a, not just a guy. Mm-hmm. That was a Master of the universe.
Uh, muscle Man was one of the guys, the Old Testament, that was a, a music guy. Mm-hmm. So there's people whose job it was, was essentially to constantly be playing music. Yeah. Um, amen. But church, Sunday congregational singing is, it's just, it's a, it's a category, it's a thing. Mm-hmm. And you can, that thing needs to be that thing.
And there's an importance to it. I think church are missing out, you know? Yeah. Um, yeah. So no genre of music is more, you said that basically no genre of music is more biblical. I disagree. Um, I believe it's country. Oh gosh. We would've also accepted Western. Oh goodness. Um, so country or western Only if like the dog dies and stuff.
I mean, I don't [00:39:00] know. I No, that's great. Yeah. Uh, uh, you, you brought mentioned it something, talking about instruments, like how you talked about the piano. Um, is there a place and is it, is it okay to have electric guitar, uh, a drum set? Um, is it symbols? Is it symbols? Yeah. Of course the Bible talks about Psalm one 50.
Yeah. Flute a liar. Symbols crashing symbols. Yeah. Um, absolutely. How can, here's the thing, there's, there's a sense of joy in this. I would say that, lemme say this, uh, a lot of church that wanna have these things, there's a, your people have to be trained mm-hmm. Enough to like know how to make a joyful sound.
And yeah, those things are great. But again, not, I wanna say a few things. Not all of those things are the same as congregational singing though, right? When the Bible talks about like, singing to, to God in one another, Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. You know, I don't think we have to balance that with symbols, right?
Like I think there's, yeah, I think there's the idea that we're singing unto God in all aspects of our life, right? Mm-hmm. We're playing music under God. We're doing everything [00:40:00] unto the Lord. All things for the glory of God. And so music is part of our life, and it's a special thing. I mean, back in the olden days, you didn't watch tv.
People came over like, oh, you know, a song, play it. And people would be entertained by like the idea that people would use all their instruments and these crashing symbols and the drama like, amen. It's great dramas. They're all those things are great. I just don't think those things are Sunday Church. Um, now can you have crashing symbols at church?
Sure. Does it help everyone sing? I don't know. So there's no instrument that's off limits. I just think that if we say, Hey, this thing we're doing is congregational singing, um. I don't know how much you have loud crashing symbols and liars and ex and flag dancing, this, that. I don't know if that's serving that function.
So again, I'm not saying those things are bad. Of course, nothing's off limits as unto the Lord. It's all good. But this thing is congregational singing. That's all we're saying. And I just think that that's lost a little bit. So it's not, and a lot of people say, no, you're losing someone. I'm saying just the opposite.
I'm saying, Nolo, let's not lose this, what this thing is. Mm-hmm. And then we have [00:41:00] all the different music we want in all the different categories. Um, and we should be worshiping God all through our life. Sing in your car, have bands. Go to music, go to concerts, play the thing. Uh, let's get into this. What's a Christian band?
What in the world is that? Are you a Christian coffee house? What is that like? Just be a Christian in the world and be awesome and excellent as worship. Mm-hmm. Um, and sing your awesome songs. And so sing some songs about Jesus and sing some songs about your girlfriend. I mean, sing what? Just be awesome.
It's all worship. And so. Um, but Sunday service, you know, no one's entitled to the, to perform and get up there and show their solo. I mean, that's the other thing too. Even if you had, even if you had piano and nothing else, and then the piano is constantly doing solos, I mean, like, it's not really helping us, it's not sinful.
Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes churches will do special music. Mm-hmm. And that's not sinful either, but it's special precisely because you're not singing it. You're listening to something that's being done as under the Lord. It's ironically, a lot of churches that have special music probably [00:42:00] wouldn't appreciate churches that did art and flag dancing.
I'm like, it's the same category. There's nothing wrong with it in principle that someone's gonna do something as unto the Lord. I just think we've worked at our church to make everything, which is for rabbis.com where, and, um, the book is mere membership, but, um, uh. To make everything simple, right? You have, you sing three songs, you get up.
I mean, I just think that if you are in the more, there's lots of opportunity. No one's saying you can't sing. Mm-hmm. You know, but here's the things we're gonna say we're gonna do. And it's just simple. And one more thing. We did an experiment. So we started our church off. Like, I didn't, I didn't inherit this.
So back in the day when I was in high school and college, I was in a punk rock band. That's all I knew. And um, when we started the church, we had like six people and we needed to have music. And so I'd put together this band and everything was punk rock. You'd show up at church and it was normal songs that people would have, and it was all punked out.
And that was Barba Road Church. Which now you would be like, what? That's crazy. And then we developed and [00:43:00] had great bands. At one point we had all these different bands. There was like little warlords. Everyone had different preferences and warlords, what I noticed is people would show up late, um, for the music they didn't like.
And so you're starting to see like, we're basically giving, you're starting to see people vote with their feet for their preferences. I'm like, gosh, this seems unhealthy. And then we started, we had an experiment where we had you guys keep track of, um. What songs people sang to. Mm-hmm. And look, make all the arguments you want.
But here, we didn't experiment over years, by the way, and all the radio songs that, like you sound like that we might do whatever you wanna call it, like contemporary type songs. People liked them, but they did not sing. Then you get to Amazing Grace, all of a sudden everyone's singing. And so it just, there's something about songs that we can sing.
They need to be singable, knowable, repeatable. And um, and I don't know if you're gonna ask, but I don't think that churches should be using like, Bethel music and all this stuff from, because it gives 'em all their money. And I don't know if you're gonna ask that. I'm gonna get to that. Yeah. Okay. Um, going back to something you said earlier, just on the same [00:44:00] vein as instruments, I'm having so much fun.
I'm afraid it's gonna end so soon and sometimes it seems like it just No. Yeah. We're, we can sit here all day. No, no. I, I don't know. I just, I wanted to jump in and get it all in. So the number one request we get this is true, is I wish it would go longer. And you don't listen to podcasts, you don't understand.
I will listen to a little, a four hour long podcast. It's smaller, it's nothing. I mean, big Brad sends me these ones that are like six hours long. Yeah. Some, someone says, Hey, did you hear about this one story? I'm like, okay. And they'll send me like an eight hour video and I'm like, who's listening to this?
Exactly? Like this is just the start. Um, like, oh gosh. But is it a, a. Uh, theological misappropriation with the Church of Christ saying like instruments themselves, like were were to sing to one another and, and yeah. And to not have instruments. Instruments are sinful. What would be your response to someone?
It's just, why are people so weird? Like, it is, it's just so weird. It's just going beyond the Bible. Like where in the Bible would you say the instruments are wrong? It's just so, gosh, I'm really candid today, aren't I? It just, if you, well, I love that people are, people are expecting you to like open a Bible and be like, well, you [00:45:00] go to this verse and then instruct them and you're just like, you're dumb.
Well, it, no, but I'm like, it's just, it's an abnormal way to think. Like, they're like, we're not gonna have instruments because of why, where in the Bible do you get the idea that you shouldn't have instruments in your music? Like that's, I just. That's really, really absurd to me. I don't know. What was the question though?
No, that's fine. You answered it. Okay. Uh, they're dumb. Got it. You go be honest. Here's the thing. Scripture gives us freedom. It's like in the garden, Adam. God's like, you can eat from any tree. You can eat from any fruit, and there's not this one. He's like, cool. What should we have for dinner? I was like, what do you want?
Right. What do you mean? Like you can pick whichever one you want. Yeah. You have freedom to make choices and God's sovereign and, and, and good. And it works out what you know, but like you have freedom to make choices, but which one should I have? He's like, which one do you want? Like we have preferences and freedom.
Yeah. So if someone says, I just don't, like, here's the thing, if a church was like, we just are gonna have no instruments 'cause we just don't like 'em. All right. Own it. Yeah. Say we just don't like 'em. It's a preference. We're not gonna have instruments. That's fine. Yeah. We're doing all acapella here. [00:46:00] Why?
Well, we just think it's helpful. Fine. Nothing wrong with that, but as soon as you start saying this is a principle, you should not have them. Ooh. Not good at all. They also have other issues. Major, major issues. Uh, so yeah, there's a church in I appreciate you saying that. 'cause I think a lot of people, they'll look at our church in, in, we, you know, every church is gonna have people who really love the music and they're gonna make it a principle in their own mind and say, oh, hymns are the best.
They're better than everything else. Everything else is the worst. I went to a church in Wisconsin and wasa, Wisconsin. Great. Uh, and it was, it was all acapella and they did not make a stink about it there. The pastor's like, yeah, this is just what we do. And we like hearing each other's voices and there's like all these people who knew harmonies and it was amazing.
Wow. But they were, they, no one, there was like, what type of music do you have at your church? And so it was very, you just nailed it. It was very refreshing. Yeah. I think that second part, those, you nailed it. Like there needs to be a good faith that when you show up at church, like the goal is to be led.
Yeah. But this preference thing is just, it comes from a consumeristic culture and we don't mean to get trapped in it. And churches, [00:47:00] they play up to it begging people to come do this stuff and end up shepherding goats. Yeah. Like, it's just, I mean, anyways, people, your light of preferences. Amen. But like, it just, you get, you know, the, the, you're not a consumer.
Like it's not mm-hmm. It's as under God. So I don't know. Um, I think it's fine and I think that music can change. So if I had my druthers, if I was. The guy like fit, picking the music. I would change it every week just because I like keeping people on my to, on their toes. I, I, I like that. On the flip side, I see a lot of value in consistency and I mean, I'm Mr.
Consistent guy too, so, um, you know, I'll give you a funny thing though. There's always like the guy that does the song and then changes it. So you know, when they, like, they'll delay saying the chorus, then everyone sings, but then stops 'cause they realize it went on. I'm like, oh, that guy makes you not trust him.
And so then what happens? He's gonna get the chorus and you're kind of quiet. So little things, if you're leading music and you're. Hard to [00:48:00] anticipate because you're trying to be surprising and clever. Um, and I get it, like if you ever go to a concert, like, I remember like if you go listen to Dave Matthews band and you're like, I want to hear him play whatever, you know, number 41 or Crap Satellite.
Yeah, yeah. Satellite. And he gets in, they like decide to like jazz it out more. Mm-hmm. And like change it. You're kinda like, come on, I just want you play it like you played it on the radio. Mm-hmm. And let me hear it. But for them, they played it a thousand times. They're bored of it. That's 'cause they're performing.
We don't get bored because we're singing to the creator of the universe using the breath he gave us in a, in, in gratitude for the life we're living. We're communing, corporately, ident, identifying with a body that's larger than just me and my own preferences to sing unto the Lord. And it's a chance to submit to the, to the congregation in that way.
And just, it's just, it's what the, it's the holy. Amen. Of the whole thing. And so, um, when you're the leader person, you're not trying to be clever entertained. You're just, let's, let's help, let's do [00:49:00] that. Let's, let's do that together. So, yeah. Um, do you think the times I have seen Dave Matthews band is greater or lower than 10?
No way. It's greater than 10. You've seen Dave Matthew more than 10 times. We'll leave it at that. Oh my gosh. Gosh. I feel like, yeah. Well he peaked when I was, yeah, I mean, two, 2000, 2005. That was, yeah. Good for you. Yeah. Kind of. Right. Um, wow. Yeah. That's a lot. It's, it is, it's a lot of, a lot of, it's a lot of, Dave Matthews, a lot of words.
He's still touring and they're still amazing. Yeah. I mean, Carter Beaufort is top three dreamers to ever live. I, I went to see Sarah McLaughlin. I've seen her like six times, I think. Yeah. Seven. See, that's more embarrassing. Six. It's, I was a big Sarah McLaughlin fan, but now her newest stuff is all like rainbow flags all the time stuff.
I'm like, I just can't. Yeah. Do it. Dave Matthews is more about like where we're getting our corn from. No, he's also dumb. The stuff he's been saying. Make sure your corn is cleaned. Yeah. I just want the musicians to just play their music. Exactly. Just play the music and turn off. Yeah. That's what ruined rage against the machine.
You're like, just stop [00:50:00] talking. Yeah. I'm like, he'd like keep changing the machine too. I'm like, it seems like they keep changing what the machine is. You know what I mean? That's so good. Uh, what, which machine are we raging against? The washing machine. I didn't, didn't, I mean, are it is like you are the man, sir, and it's just like, uh, you are the machine.
Like, I like rage against washing machines. Uh, yeah. Which machine are they talking about today? Uh, you talked about a little bit earlier, but music you said is powerful. It's a motive. It can be, uh, emotive, it can be instructive. It could be emo too. It could be emo, you know, the, the bags. Yeah. I mean that's short for emotive.
I think that's what they call it. That, yes. Um, that said, do you think this is, do you think it is planned or unplanned that the charismatic movement, Bethel, all of these horribly, um, horrible churches with bad theology are pushing the charismatic agenda with music. Do you think that is on purpose or a byproduct?
Yes, it's on purpose and there's a couple things about it. So I think, again, let me just restate this. I think there's plenty of people that don't know better. They go to these churches, they wanna know the [00:51:00] Lord. Um, there's a sensuousness. Of this, and that's, that's pushing it. So again, we, we aim at what we measure, and so they measure the experience.
I think that's the first, the first big red flag is that the church is, if they, if you go to a church that calls it an experience, um, their, their aim is off, right? Um, majorly off. But then the second thing is, I think there's two things that have happened. I think you've always had extreme groups like the Bethels and the ihop, not the Pancake Place, but the International House of Prayer, whatever, all those di guys, um, they've always been crazy, but their music's been amazing.
Um, and so that's not the issue. The issue isn't the crazy, it's the way that, so I would say back in like two thousands, up to the last 20 years, you had this thing. So when, where a lot of these churches would be kinda like milk toast, Southern California in particular, milk toast, evangelical churches means.
They like, Jesus, here's the [00:52:00] gospel. Um, here's some Bible. It's not super like deep, but it's just like, here's, it's generally good. Hey, what do you think about the doctrines of grace? I don't know. Let's not talk about it. It was just the after the just Jesus stuff. They, they kind of like tried to minimize doctrinal distinctions to emphasize more of the evangelical like, um, broad things.
And there's a lot of major problems and weaknesses, but there's some basic benefits. They're like, well, it's just not saying the thing. So a lot of these churches, one of the factors over the years was that they were just und discerning, and I'm not advocating for discernment ministries, but there was, the churches themselves just tend to be und discerning, meaning you have people there singing songs that would like contradict each other.
Right. You have one again, I mentioned the Holy Spirit coming down. You have the other one about MEUs and how I'm, me, me, me and no one's like, Hey, I'm wondering about the theology here because no one's really wondering about the theology in general. But what happened is you had the reformed young, restless, and reformed movement.
It was this kind of a. Resurgence. You had RC Spro, um, you had [00:53:00] John Piper, you had crossway. The things kind of coming out, the ESV where there's like sort of reformed resurgence and now it's kind of eating its own a little bit. But there's a moment where this was a reaction where a lot of young people started recognizing a seriousness in theology as a, a balm on their soul against sort of the vad big evangelical big tent sort of consumeristic.
Plum. And so people started becoming more informed, uh, going, getting into these reformed theology. And mainly it was the doctrines of Grace and Calvinism. And so this, what happened is it took these churches that were kind of milk toast and, and sort of like none on non-committed. And then their church, the young people started going one way.
And the maybe the more boomers were wanting to go another, and so they start, the churches couldn't stay in that space. So what you notice is a lot of churches that were kind of like on the fence on a lot of issues started to polarize more aggressively towards the charismatic side of things. And that that's because they were already [00:54:00] in the music.
They were already using the music. And so they were already adopting the music that was coming from the radio from the thing. And the musicians there are great, I mean, they're, they're selling out giant stadiums. They're very, very good. Um, and so I think this brought a lot of churches that were probably not Uber into all these like new apostolic reformation stuff.
I just threw out a lot of words. I just, whatever. Look it up. Um, the. It's brought a lot of people that way. So that polarization has kind of happened. And so the, the church that were kinda like uninterested in a lot of that ended up getting sucked in. So they used to say like, the Assemblies of God and the Baptists and the rest, they all kinda like exist in this like weird center, um, non-denominational nondenom Baptist assembly type thing.
Right. I'm, I'm, and then, yeah, now they're all kind of, you see 'em all, you see a lot more, uh, fractures. And so, um, I don't know what's gonna happen in the future. I think that's been somewhat good. But the music was the driving force because people just were already excited [00:55:00] about contemporary service in the church growth movement.
Mm-hmm. And the best music was coming from these places with really crazy theology, like little God's theology, like, like really, really crazy theology. And so what happens is you're like, well, I like the music and this happens to me all the time. The music's great. And I, I never, if I like a song now that's a Christian song, I never look who sings it.
Yeah. And during Christmas time, oh, it's the worst in particular. Mor don't do it because Mormon tap, Mor choir or, or people like, or No, don't look 'em up. Don't. Like my wife likes to look up who sang. I'm like, don't do it. 'cause like remember that band, like Pentatonic? Oh yeah. They're all, yeah. And they're all like, they're all lesbians and whole gay, I don't know what it is.
And you're like, don't look it up. Or there's like a gut, one of the other bands like, now they all came out as whatever. Just, just hear the music. It just, like you said, meet sacrifice, idols. You hear it, you like it. Don't ask where it came from. That's good. Um, and when you're listening, but as a pastor and churches, I think the music is the gateway to really, really crazy doctrine.
But here's why. It's experiential. So the [00:56:00] music itself is creating an environment and an experience, and any music can do it. But when you associate that, you validate that that God's in it. And then you create your whole service around it, man. People are like, well, God has to be in this and. I'm not saying that God's not in good music and he is not hearing stuff.
I mean, but like, God could be just as much in good music that's sung by someone else than he is with Bethel. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like, and I just, but I think theologically as a church, you shouldn't be playing that because you're basically opening the door for your people to like, be cool with that.
And there's theology that you shouldn't be cool with, so. Mm-hmm. That's, that's a, well, it brings up a point that it's a good thing to have pastoral oversight over your music ministry. And I think a lot of churches don't because they're like, right, just put a, create let's, that guy's really creative. He's very talented.
Let's give him a a dv. He's got a good shirt. Exactly. A dv. Let's give him a microphone. And that can be, yeah, that can be really bad. Well, yeah. I mean, and yeah. Absolutely. So back in the day, it used to be you'd have. [00:57:00] The senior pastor. The the pastor, and then you'd have the worship pastor. And I'm like, well, I figure the senior pastor would probably be the worship pastor too, wouldn't he?
But, um, but no one ever wants to call himself the music guy, the music pastor. So we're like, okay. Um, but yeah, then there they would have an equal. That was like the big draw. That was the super superstar draw. So I think that you want to have pastoral oversight of the songs you sing, like real pastoral oversight.
You should be looking at it. There should be care given and a church should receive when they show up that they should feel safe, that they're singing songs that are under God. They should be able to show up and just join. Mm-hmm. Join in, not, it's not about, I wonder if I like this, and maybe we have more of that.
Like, all right, maybe you could, you can always make things better. But I don't know, like. In your life right now? Is this the type of thing that's like, we need to sing and under God, what a privilege. You know, like, I don't know if I like my seat in the kingdom. I'm like, oh my goodness. So that's my last question, unless you have more.
My last question that just thinking through this is, [00:58:00] um, if you're someone that's very gifted in music, but you don't like the genre of music at your church, um, so therefore you're not, you know, I know you don't like the word volunteer. You're not actively serving. Uh, yeah. What, what would, how would you, what would you tell someone who's in that category?
Yeah, let's take the thought. The, the very fact that we're even asking that question assumes some sort of entitled idea that everyone that has a gift in music should play music. Hmm. But here's what it's coming from. The Bible says that God gives us spiritual gifts to serve the body of Christ. Okay. So we say that we're, that's true.
And one of those gifts could be making music and singing and stuff. Amen. But think about most of our spiritual gifts. Do we think of hospitality as a Sunday morning thing? Yes it is. So you're saying, okay, so I have the gift of hospitality. I'm like, but you're not serving Sunday morning. Does that mean you just should do nothing?
Like, wait a second. You mean the church is more than a Sunday service? The church is the living organism. It is the body of Christ. You mean that the gift of hospitality might be something you do Monday through Saturday? Oh, oh, you mean the gift [00:59:00] of mercy isn't something that only happens on a Sunday morning Mercy session.
So all of our gifts, almost all of our gifts are to be exercised in our lives for the benefit of the body of Christ. And Sunday morning is just the idea that this is supposed to take everybody that has musical talent or something and be like the thing. It just, it's not that you can't and ought not to try to do it.
Maybe it doesn't work, but like find ways to use your gifts as a blessing as unto the Lord. Not, you know. So for example, I guarantee you that a lot of people would love to come to a concert at your house or to, you could make an album or you could go serve in the children's church and, and, and do the songs there.
You can. Do a concert in the park and have a a gospel thing. You can just have people over and there's a million options of ways you can serve and use those gifts. But here's the thing. Remember ourselves, like when we talk about spiritual gifts, what, what does the church need? This happens with teachers all the time.
Someone comes in like, why I feel the gift to teach? I'm like, okay, but this is subject we just preached on. The church doesn't need you to teach [01:00:00] that. The church needs you to care for these people. Yeah, yeah. But I gotta use my gift. I'm like, oh, see, we have to wanna serve the people. And sometimes what they need is what we need to do.
And so does the church need you to be playing your solo? I think is a question you gotta ask yourself. I don't think they do. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe they do, and if they do, amen. Should you get, use your voice. Amen. I mean, if you're in the congregation and you sing super well, I'd love for you to sit next to me.
I mean, singing next to a good singer is great. Um, but there's a lot of opportunity to use your gifts all over the place for the body of Christ and the benefit of the body of Christ. And, um. I'm just not sure why that someone would feel like lessened in any way. Because we say use your gift all through the week, except for the three songs on Sunday that are meant for congregational singing.
Like anyways. I dunno if that makes sense. And if you're bad, there's always children's church. Okay. Children's church is awesome. Uh, you want some symbols? Yeah. There. You want symbols? We should have 'em. Yeah. A kazoo. One of those. No. Yeah. I mean, I get it. People wanna feel things and I [01:01:00] just think that, can I say this too?
I think sometimes people think that sober mind like music, the lights always come off, lemme just say this. Mm-hmm. We create these environments of intimacy. They turn the music up, they'll say, because we want everyone to feel unafraid to sing. And we turn the lights down so it feels more intimate. So you don't see all the people and the things.
And I get it, but again, and there's nothing evil about it, but what we're aiming at is to isolate you to be alone with God in the midst of a crowd. Mm-hmm. And I think the lights should be on. I think we should be able to see and hear each other. And we should be able to, and it should be. I was, I, I remember I was hiking up Mount Whitney, we were doing the, the backside of Mount Whitney.
I was a newer Christian and I got altitude sick the first day. And so for three days I just shut my mouth. I didn't, I needed to hike and I was carrying an a ginormous backpack 'cause I was too stubborn to like listen to anybody help me. And so I was shut my mouth and I just, I was miserable 'cause I couldn't eat, I couldn't poop, I couldn't do anything.
And I remember just needing to [01:02:00] like sing in the to God. Right. Can like, can you imagine the people persecuted somewhere singing like Jesus Freak, I think a Paul and Silas in prison. Like, but you know what I'm saying? Like yeah. You're not Yeah. Politicized in prison. When they're singing in the door shake, they're not singing like I'm a Jesus freak.
Like, yeah. There, there's something about the re repetitive repeatability of the knowability of like, I could sing Amazing Grace. I could sing, you know what a friend we have in Jesus. I could sing those types of songs in my mind that I knew. But when I tried to sing, like the one with the, with the repeated refrain.
Like over and over again from the, you know, the fifth chorus and the song is just not gonna work when you're Mount Whitney. It's not gonna work in these things. Like, that should be a little bit of a clue that there's sort of a, I don't know, it's not really functional in that way. Right? Yeah. Like no one's marching into battle singing the Battle hymn of Oceans.
Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. Do you believe it? They're singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic. So anyways, which about Revelation 19? I don't answer the question, but the people have great, so many strong opinions. [01:03:00] Yeah. And I just want to remind everyone, like what we're saying is really modest. We're not saying you can't have.
Excellence and awesome opinions. All we're saying is let's remind ourselves what the goal is. That should be, that should be a really helpful way forward for everyone. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, the prisoners are listening. Great sermon, I think. Yes. At bar.com. I think my wife named our youngest after that message.
Okay. So that's a great, uh, his full name is the prisoners are listening. Silas,
uh, not my people. Uh, alright, Matt. Well, uh, thanks. Uh, if you have any questions on music, please write them in to go to a lot of words. podcasts.com. There's a big button that says, ask a question and submit your questions and we'll get to it. This is a, a very contentious topic. There was worship wars at one point, so if you have more questions on it, but until then we're gonna get into another episode of.
Does it slap? Oh dear. Uh, this whole episode is sponsored. You really? I thought we were ending the episode and then you just slap. No, I got tons of stuff left. Oh my goodness. After it does it slap? I [01:04:00] have one more question. Oh my gosh. Okay. Uh, so this is, uh, brought to you by Big Brad. Okay. He wants to know, uh, the feeling of pre-workout about 15 minutes after you take it.
Alright. I don't take pre-workout. I drink coffee like 24 hours a day. So I guess that's my pre-workout. But I did in high school and they used to have this stuff called Nno Explode. Have you heard of it? Yes. And it's, I think they banned it. I honestly, I think it banned that incentive dream. They both banned it.
Yeah, they banned it, right? Yeah. If they had NO explode, I probably would take it again. Yeah. You, before I preach. No, I'm just kidding. Um, it would be, you would take this stuff and you would feel nauseated and sick until you started working out, and then you were like, wow. And so. Yeah. That's pretty amazing actually.
Slaps, I wouldn't, I don't take it. So doesn't slap it. Nno explodes. Nno explodes. Slaps. I love it. I'll say that. All right. Uh, sour candy. Warheads. I feel [01:05:00] like it gives you, uh, what are those things in your mouth? The, the sores? Yeah. Tinker sores. Tinker sores. Yeah. Doesn't slap, doesn't slap. Uh, running is a workout.
I love that one. Running is so, so dumb. I used to have to run, I had a running coach, but it doesn't slap. There's no way Run. Running's terrible. You know what's funny is I don't think grown men should run. No, I don't think so either. Is that funny? There's a, it was considered like back in the, yeah, well, in, in, uh, Uganda, if they see a man wearing shorts or running, they're like, oh, this.
Well, I know, but back it's a, it's, that's what the whole story about the prodigal son, when the father runs to, it's sort of an unrespectable thing to do. Mm-hmm. Um, no running's. Look, if you're into running, good for you. Wow. I think it's awesome. I know runner running's great. I've, I can love it. I could love it.
I just don't think it slaps right now. It does not. Thank you. It does not. I'm not built for it. This does not slap, but I used to be a runner. Uh, snow. Wait, wait, hold on second. Just roller ski. Yeah. Roller, yeah. Roller blunt. Now roller [01:06:00] inline skating. On the other hand, that slaps hard. That slaps hard. Now, what do you say?
Snow? Snow. Oh gosh. Okay. I thought it slapped now. I don't think so. So when I lived in Boston, I was there and it was, uh, I, my whole life has been California, San Diego, then Santa Barbara, like that was it. That's all I knew. So I lived in Boston right after college for the rowing thing, and I was there, I got there in it's September.
I was wearing my down jacket and everything like in October, and then it started snowing. And I remember thinking I was by myself out in the East coast and I'm like, this thing is great. Snow is awesome. I love this. And it was coming into Christmas and I loved it. And then when Christmas was over, I was like, okay, cool.
Now it's done. Right. Yep. Like I never had experience that January and February and March was still snow and that was the most uns slappy thing ever. It was brown cars were there, you still had to go to work. It was dark out. It's terrible. Yeah. That's why you should live in San Diego and come to Brows Road Church.
Yeah. And read mere membership post Christmas. [01:07:00] Snow is, I mean, terrible. It's the worst. If terrible, if snow stopped on January 1st, I think it'd be awesome. Yeah. Like January you could snow like Yeah. October, November, December. Mm-hmm. And then January 1st it was like, nice. Yeah. Or something. Yeah. You could just go to the mountains and get it.
But January's the worst month of the year, so, um, I'll just do one more. His list is vast. Oh dear. Uh, it could be vost as well, but I'll say vast. No one says Vos. Yeah, they do. No person says Vost a vo unless they're England. An English person. No one says vost. There's a vost amount of pickle weasels. Oh Lord.
All right. The last one I'll do is, uh. Sorry, I can't make the joke. Popeye's chicken sandwiches. Oh, they slap, they slap Popeye's chicken slaps. All right. I'll get into the la This is, uh, we'll end after with this, but we have one more question from a listener, Tyler, from who knows where. Uh, it's a great question.
I wanna do a whole episode based upon this. Um, but he asks responsibility to our earthly bodies. I have heard people talk [01:08:00] about our body as a temple in the context of what we eat and as an argument for, for or against ingesting food that is not organic, that has seed oils, red, 40 artificial sweeteners, pesticides.
If certain things are found to be harmful to our bodies, are we responsible to avoid such things? At the same time, the list of harmful additives has grown so large. It seems almost unavoidable. I've thought ignorance to be bliss when it comes to this, but wonder if we are responsible to seek out that knowledge during our time on earth.
What a neat question. All right. Real brief. Great, great question. A whole episode on this, but we should, well, yeah, just short as possible. Um, you can eat whatever you want. That's the whole thing. Like food doesn't make you holy, righteous. It's like the Bible makes a big deal. So we think of Old Testament food laws merely as, um, just arbitrary stuff, but there's always reasons for it, not you are not more holy.
By how you eat. And when we talk about our body, like, well, what about trans fats and things like that, you know, um, yeah. We wanna take, so that, you gotta balance two things. We ought to be good stewards of our bodies. We are embodied souls. Our [01:09:00] bodies not just a prison for our soul, and our bodies matter, and the, and we should worship God with our bodies.
But when it, the Bible describes us and says that our bodies, the temple of the Holy Spirit, this is not an advocation for our health. He's referring, the word you in that passage both times is plural. He's based on y'all's body, is the temple of Holy Spirit, and he's talking about the church. And so, yes, God's Holy Spirit in dwells us individually, but the reference to us being the temple is we're part of the body of Christ, which is the living temple of God.
And so we don't really think we, so you, you say, well, how does that answer my question? Well. If I just say that your body's a temple, we're like, well, I don't wanna put something in a temple that's bad. Like, that's not what it's saying, right? It just means that you are part of something bigger. You should take care of your body.
You shouldn't go against it. It is a holy place when you go. I mentioned when you go to Israel, you're the holiest object there. You're, you're the living temple of God. Um, in terms of health, again, you're not, it's, you gotta remind ourselves that health in these, these are not moral categories. Um, and so someone says, well, can't I just eat dumb, dumb [01:10:00] dumbs and donuts all day?
Like you could, and that would be unwise. Um, is it sin sinful to be fat and outta shape? Well, I mean, gluttony would kind of be a sin of like lacking self-control. But like, again, most people, but you. But so having said all that, we live in a very toxic environment, and I'm not a crunchy guy, but I've watched, like, I hate it, but the whole microplastic thing, like everyone's hormones are disruptive.
The endocrine disruptors, like things are crazy. And you ought to do things to take care of yourself. Um, you should get your hormones checked, you should know how you're at. Like there, we live in a very toxic environment. Um, and it wasn't quite so bad before. But again, eat what you want, do what you want. I like cigars.
I'm a big cigar smoker, and I just love people that are dressed in microplastics and like radiated telling me that I shouldn't have cigars. I'm like, tell, like it's fine. It's just like, I think we'll have cigars in heaven. So that's me. Um, so take care of yourself because it's wise and you wanna be a good steward of your [01:11:00] body.
I like to work out. I think I worship God, uh, with just being, you know, a good steward of the gifts he's given me. But being physically in shape helps me think mm-hmm. And so. I gotta be careful because people have problems. But like, I do think that people might not respect, like if you're a pastor and you're like severely overweight, I don't think you're like in sin.
I don't think that's the right category necessarily. There's all sorts of reasons people are overweight, but I think you should recognize that maybe it's a distraction. Like you're hurting your ability, your ability for people to give you like, respect, like, you know what I'm saying? Like that's a, a again, a different category than just mere sin is, I guess my point.
So I think we'll unpack this in an episode next week. Uh, crunchy Christianity and Fitness Culture. All right, let's do it. Uh, thanks for joining us. Make sure to what Matt? Oh yeah. Smash that. Subscribe. Smash button. Smash. Like subscribe, share it and get my book and tell me you liked it. Yeah. Buy a mug. Buy a book because I wanna keep writing books, but I wanna know that we, people [01:12:00] like it.
Yeah. If you made it this far, make sure. Or if you hate it, shout out to Larry in the comments, Larry The skull. Uh, also no one gave a shout out to Chauncey who does all of this. Yeah. And so he's the best. Feel free to use this as an opening clip. Make sure to thank Chauncey. If you know him, text him. If you see him at church and come out to Easter Sunday, give him a big hug.
Come out to Easter, grab us, grab us.com. Any other plugs? Do you anything else? I'm having so much fun doing this. Shameless plug. I'm excited. It's amazing giving these podcasts. So thanks. Yeah, this is awesome. Um, we will see you all next week.
Hey, Matt, you know what really slaps what our subscribers, the people who watch the show you each week, so thank you. We appreciate you tuning in each week to listen to the lot of words podcast, make sure you like and subscribe and watch the videos to the very end. It's great for us. Make sure you comment and it really supports the channel and we really love hearing from what you have to say and we're excited to keep doing this and buy a mug.