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Proof is what GTM leaders need to make fast and furious decisions that keep their businesses alive and thriving.
The Proof Point hosts conversations anchored in the reality of day-to-day life as a revenue leader. No algorithm-hacking, talk-track headlining buzz statements around here. We’re hosting conversations between GTM leaders so we can gather the facts and provide you with the tactics and tools you need to bulletproof your strategy.
Join host Mark Huber every other week as he invites the best GTM leaders into the conversation.
Leslie Barrett [00:00:00]:
That's like my dream is to meet somebody who knows my world and then we can just like live. But nobody ever knows. I don't know, like my friends, my anybody in my house, my family, no one gets it. And then I'll go and just like, you know, tailspin about my job. And then I finally look up and their eyes are completely glazed over and they compare less. So I love meeting strangers.
Mark Huber [00:00:31]:
Here's what go to market teams are missing proof. That's what I think of every morning when I fire up LinkedIn and scroll through boring manifestos and endless lukewarm takes. Opinions are cheap and proof is gold. I'm Mark Huber and this is the proof point, a show from user evidence that helps go to market teams find ideas, get frameworks and swap tactics. Each episode includes an unfiltered discussion with the biggest names in B two B Saasden to help find the proof points that I'm in search of. You'll learn from sales, marketing and customer success leaders in the trenches where I ask them seriously, what actually works for you. One of our guests actually told me this, felt like we were having drinks at a bar and talking about work without all the B's. And that pretty much sums it up on why I'm so excited for this new show.
Mark Huber [00:01:17]:
Join us every other week for new episodes. Hot takes always welcome.
Jane Meno [00:01:22]:
On today's episode of the Proofpoint, you'll get to hear from three true customer.
Mark Huber [00:01:27]:
Marketing leaders on what it takes to.
Jane Meno [00:01:29]:
Build a real customer evidence program. First up we have Jane Meno. She's the head of customer marketing at Gong. Next up, we have Cash Walker, the.
Mark Huber [00:01:38]:
Director of customer marketing at Trellix.
Jane Meno [00:01:40]:
And last but definitely not least, she is a riot. Leslie Barrett. She is a customer marketing director at Tapalti and actually on paternity leave right now. So she did us a solid by coming in to record with us and dropping some bombs throughout the way. Enjoy. So, cash, I feel like you may or may not have just said you lost a little bit of sleep over this moment and getting on your soapbox, but now's the time. Why is customer marketing misunderstood?
Cache Walker [00:02:07]:
Customer marketing is misunderstood and I think it's misunderstood most by those who do it. I think the biggest mistake folks are making in customer marketing is acting like they work for the organizations they work for. I think you get too comfortable, you don't approach it correctly and you're not stacking short term wins with long term progression. I think in order to be successful in all of this and to be understood correctly, you need to be acting like a consultant. You don't need to be acting like you're embedded with the team. You're there. You need to be approaching this. Like, which stakeholders do I need to get buy in from? Who do I need to be looking out for? And maybe it's that level of anxiety or being uncomfortable and constantly looking to keep that account like you would as a consultant.
Cache Walker [00:02:55]:
But to be an effective customer marketer, I think you've got to. You've got to quit acting like you work for the organization you do.
Leslie Barrett [00:03:01]:
I did not think you were going to go say that. Not what I thought you were going to say. And it makes a lot of sense. It kind of triggered me to remember how when I first started customer marketing, I wasn't in the right mindset at all. I was very, like, reactive and, you know, just going into the each team and like, what do you need from me? I'll do anything. And then I was, like, digging in with the customer. I'm like, what do you need? I will prioritize whatever you need. And, yeah, sure, I'll take two weeks to focus on this data sheet that you, the customer, needs.
Leslie Barrett [00:03:38]:
And then I, you know, I had wasted. Not wasted, but I spent a lot of time on that. And then the CEO would come up to me, like, what are you working on? I'm like, well, this SMB customer needs this, and he's like, that doesn't move the needle. So anyway, that was my little soapbox.
Jane Meno [00:03:57]:
So, Jane, before I let you get on your soapbox, Leslie, what did you think cash was going to say?
Leslie Barrett [00:04:02]:
That it's misunderstood because there's, like, no metrics. Like, nobody knows how to measure it. And so they just think it's like this fluffy, like, oh, and fluffy advocacy program where you just give gifts and hope that customers, you know, will engage more. But really, it's the csms that are, like, crushing it and helping the retention rate, and you're not doing Jack shit. That's where I thought he was going to go.
Jane Meno [00:04:28]:
Also a good answer. All right, this is the first time I've let all three guests each get on their soapbox, but I love where this episode is headed. So, Jane, get on there. Let's go.
Jane Meno [00:04:36]:
Oh, well, I'm just going to be a tiebreaker here because I couldn't agree more with both of you. I feel, like, on, like, the DNA of, like, a marketer, of, like, a customer marketer specifically. Like, we're so different from anyone else in the marketing organization. We are so much more like a salesperson or a CSM, because we actually like need to build relationships. We need to build long term relationships internally and externally. Like no one else within the marketing team has to do it to the level that we need to do that. That's like our entire jobs are dependent on it. And then, yeah, on the prove it side, we do so many initiatives that touch.
Jane Meno [00:05:13]:
We have probably more stakeholders within the marketing than anybody else as well. We feed product marketing, we feed product, we feed CS, we feed sales, we feed the entire organization. But we don't tangibly have a way to show the impact from all of our work. We have little bits and pieces of metrics and I think there's definitely ways that a lot of this is improving and I'm really excited to see some innovations helping us. I think we're so underrepresented in that way because we don't have the stats and it's so much easier to just say, well, digital over here is like driving x amount of leads. So like pump more funding and support into digital or like demand converted this much like pipeline dollars. Right. And so there's like really a hard line ROI metrics that they can tie to where a lot of our work is a little bit like squishier sometimes.
Jane Meno [00:06:04]:
So, yeah, I absolutely think that it's misunderstood for so many reasons there.
Jane Meno [00:06:09]:
Love it. So one of the things that we're leaning into with our own messaging at user evidence is this notion of customer evidence. So when you hear customer evidence, what comes to mind at first?
Cache Walker [00:06:21]:
Proof. I think for a long time maybe folks have gotten lazy. Like you look at an analyst firm or a certain report as your proof that analysts firm, that report is only going to be as accurate as the biases that go into it or the amount of time they actually spent with the solution. So I think you've got to look for something more, right? And that's where this becomes a proof point. It's something factual from people who actually use it. And while we talk about how different we are, I think this is where our industry, b, two b, all these things starts to take that b two c influence, right? Like our world is driven by customer feedback. Like you get in an Uber and base your safety off of reviews, right, and customer feedback. And like, that's what.
Cache Walker [00:07:13]:
What guides you to be safe as you journey out into a new city or stay in someone else's house at an Airbnb based off feedback. And I think like now we're finally starting to say like, hey, this matters, instead of just like their website says they're pretty good at this.
Leslie Barrett [00:07:28]:
I really like this term of data backed results. I mean, there's so many tools now and I think we're going to get into this a little bit later about like the steps you should take. But one of my things when I get into a new organization is like do an audit of like all of those analytic tools that your company is using and like get a login and start to like really look at the analytics of each customer and how they're using the platform. And sometimes they don't even know, like at Sendoso they wouldn't even know how to measure. So you really have to be that kind of consultant. As Kash was saying on like, hey, did you know, you know, you're using this 50 times more than your peers or is just find all the data facts that you can and get wild and then have that be your proof point.
Jane Meno [00:08:19]:
I love that we have two proofpoint mentions, totally unplanned, and that is exactly why we named the podcast the proof point. For that exact reason rolled off my tongue that was not planted. But thank you both for that. So, Jane, at least for me, I mean, I'm a year ish into the customer marketing world. I've managed customer marketers before, but I'm still, I would say, relatively new to customer marketers, especially within this group right now. So who would you say is kind of shaped your thinking when it comes to customer marketing and building customer evidence programs?
Jane Meno [00:08:55]:
Like, I feel like I'm the newbie in customer marketing too, right? I've come up and have like a lot of different roles, like field marketing, demand gen, like product solutions marketing. So I think for me, a lot of the times I feel like I'm bringing in my own different mindset of like, the value I saw of customer in all my other positions that like, was actually like, what made me gravitate towards customer marketing is like, I see there's so much strategic value within this function. But I think for me, like, it's actually just been leaders that I've worked for who are truly more customer centric. So the ones that actually do go to bat for prioritizing the focus on the customer and recognize that, and I think those are the people who I see go above and beyond and they recognize that value, that embracing the customer and truly focusing on those long tail initiatives that they can be driving for the business and the brand and the, the product and the revenue pays out in so many ways. And so folks that have just, you know, driven like either championed initiatives that we would want to run, that, you know, again, doesn't have that immediate Roi that I can calculate on it, but they see that there is that impact of embracing certain executive customers or whatever other functions that may be. Truly, those have been the folks that inspire me the most. And frankly, I think this is where in the last couple years of, like, especially within the tech world, the economy shifting and us shifting and everyone's tightening their belts and everyone's getting a lot more rigorous about, like, you know, going back to the basics on everything. It's kind of been disappointing to see that a lot of people are moving away from more of that customer centricity and actually moving back towards, yeah, what's going to actually just drive pipeline and revenue.
Jane Meno [00:10:33]:
And I think that's short sighted. But I think that's where, you know, again, there's still people who are out there kind of pushing that agenda. And those are, you know, the folks that I think are most interesting to me. Curious. I mean, cash and leslie, like, you all have been following some, like, amazing leaders, too. So who's inspiring you?
Leslie Barrett [00:10:49]:
Well, it just prompted me to think about a CMO that I had, and he said something to me that at the time, I just rolled my eyes and was like, okay. He said, you have to have a certain level of obsession with g two or these review platforms. And I was like, dude, I got shit to do. Like, there's only a certain amount of obsession that I can have in each of these areas that I'm taking care of. And so, you know, I took his advice, ish, and I dove in and then all of a sudden I'm, you know, we're listed as top five best software, and we have a billboard in Times Square and it's like, oh, he was right. But at the time, I was like, this guy, get out of here. So, yeah, just definitely working with leaders who understand and get it, and there's very few. So if you have one, then connect.
Leslie Barrett [00:11:51]:
And throughout your whole career, I'm just.
Cache Walker [00:11:54]:
Going to let these two talk. I mean, that's, they're both sources for me. Like, hearing, hearing the things they share and the topics they hit on. I will also say, I think the most insightful conversation I had with somebody in the past few months about kind of our topics and our was nobody in our space. It was the head of customer loyalty for Starbucks. We just happened to be staying at the same place and ask him what he does for a living. And we started talking about it and I was like, oh, yeah, this is more connected to what I do than a lot of the people I work with on a day to day or even a lot of the approaches some of our fellow customer marketers might take. I might be like, hey, I'm really happy that's working for you, but it's not the approach I'm going to take.
Cache Walker [00:12:41]:
And so I love bringing in those outside sources, but, I mean, it doesn't get any better than really these two.
Jane Meno [00:12:50]:
All right, so this is totally unplanned, but I'm a super curious person. Cash, what was the craziest thing that that person told you about customer loyalty at Starbucks?
Cache Walker [00:13:00]:
Ooh, craziest thing. I don't know.
Jane Meno [00:13:02]:
Like, or, like, most interesting or something. That just was cool learning, I think.
Cache Walker [00:13:07]:
I think the most interesting was just, like, the overall, like, takeaway from our conversations. His approach and, like, my core approach are exactly the same. We go about it in the same way, and there's just all these different levers. He might pull his incentive, or his lever might look like a yemenite free cream on your cappuccino. I know nothing about, like, Starbucks or coffee, where mine has to be, like, free trainings and incentives. But if you look at the core of what we're doing, it was so tightly aligned that we sat there and talked, like, all day about our jobs, which usually. Right? Like, you tell somebody what you do in this space, and they're like, oh, that's neat. Like, you don't get much back.
Jane Meno [00:13:47]:
Yeah, I mean, I always say whenever people, you know, if I meet them at an airport or hotel or something, it's usually when traveling, like, oh, I work in marketing. I'm in b two b marketing. And occasionally they'll say they work in b two c marketing. And I'll be the first to admit, every time I tell them, well, I know absolutely nothing about b two c marketing. Like, all I really know is b two b. So it is pretty interesting that it's completely different industries, yet the approaches and really what you're trying to do at the end of the day are very similar.
Leslie Barrett [00:14:15]:
That's like, my dream is to meet somebody who knows my world, and then we can just live, but nobody ever knows. I don't know my friends, anybody in my house, my family. No one gets it. And then I'll go and just, like, you know, tailspin about my job, and then I finally look up, and their eyes are completely glazed over, and they could care less. So I love meeting strangers.
Jane Meno [00:14:44]:
Yes, that's usually how it goes in my world, too. So I feel you there.
Cache Walker [00:14:48]:
What if you look at it as like the closest thing you're going to get to running into another customer marketer that gets you is what you're getting out of being a parent. I think parenting is closer to customer marketing than a lot of other marketing jobs are.
Leslie Barrett [00:15:03]:
Do tell.
Jane Meno [00:15:04]:
Yeah.
Cache Walker [00:15:06]:
People will be like, oh, how did you get this case study approved? I'm like, before I woke up and had breakfast this morning, I had to convince an eleven year old to go to school or to shower or like, so, like, these things are challenging, but you always have to be working towards a path of yes, I love that.
Jane Meno [00:15:22]:
We're really good at handling tantrums. You know, you just like all day, every day, it's a tantrum from like, all your stakeholders. You go home, there's a tantrum. You just have to learn to, like, find your even keel. I definitely agree with that.
Cache Walker [00:15:35]:
Cash and everything has the possibility to blow up in your face, right? Like, at any moment.
Leslie Barrett [00:15:42]:
I thought you were going to say the closest you're going to get is like, inviting people over to your house, which I've done. I've had a customer marketing meetup in this house just to be able to talk shop with everyone.
Jane Meno [00:15:58]:
That's amazing. So kind of a crazy tie here, but I have landmines written in the outline for this episode. And cash, you just said things blowing up, so great connection. Very unplanned. What are some of the landmines that you've run into when trying to build out customer marketing programs and customer evidence programs?
Cache Walker [00:16:16]:
What landmines haven't I run into, man? Assuming anything is ever going to be smooth, like, it doesn't matter if it's like an internal, like, let's integrate XYZ with Salesforce or let's, let's do this with this big time customer.
Jane Meno [00:16:34]:
Oh, yeah.
Cache Walker [00:16:34]:
Like, we can get, like, yeah, I mean, it's kind of just being paranoid and looking for landmines everywhere and then finding a path around them.
Leslie Barrett [00:16:43]:
Like, I've been pretty lucky. I've been pretty lucky at some of my gigs, but without naming names, what's up with the design team? What? They work different? Huh? So those are my unexpected landmines where I'm like, here's my idea, here's my logos. Let me get a little GPT action for you for some inspiration. They're like, oh, this is great, but I'm gonna do something completely different and you're gonna hate it and, oh, we're not gonna launch this until like next year.
Jane Meno [00:17:25]:
Well, it's so true, Lizzie. I feel like there's so much work that goes into, like, bringing your stakeholders along with you and, like, you have, like, you have to, like, play up each of their interests and, like, understand, like, okay, the brand team, how do I get them to, like, see how this is, like, a creative application and get them stoked about it? Oh, like. Like, my product marketing team, this is going to help you generate the proof that, like, helps you sell that one feature, that one niche little product that you've got out there. And so, like, you're trying to, like, play up the egos and the interests of all these people to get them bought in on your programs and support it, because, again, like, we play with everyone. We support everyone, and, yeah, we can. You know, we're dependent on them, too, right?
Leslie Barrett [00:18:04]:
Yeah. It reminded me back when I was laid off and I was interviewing for a director role. I was interviewing at this one company, and they. Every single person I talked to warned me about the CRO, and they were like, he's really difficult, and you really have to play up to his ego, and you really. And I was like, stop talking. This is horseshit. Why would I choose to work with anybody like that? So. And I think there's more out there than not.
Leslie Barrett [00:18:35]:
So I feel for all you. If you have someone in your organization like that, I don't know where we're going with this topic, and we're nothing. We're just shit talking now, and we could totally pivot. But, yeah, that was a rough one. I don't know what the hell they were thinking. Telling me that it's good to catch.
Jane Meno [00:18:51]:
Those red flags, though, right? Like, there are some of those things that you can just read that that's part of the corporate culture and the DNA, and you're like, hey, if you catch wind of that, then that's not what you want to sign up for. Then, like, yeah, this is your choice, right? It's your path, and it's your time. It's good that you sniff that one out and said, not for me. Right?
Jane Meno [00:19:08]:
Let's spin this into a positive, though. So, cash and leslie, you're both, like, relatively new to your new gigs. I know leslie is probably newer than cash is. Cash, how long have you been at the new gig?
Cache Walker [00:19:21]:
Yeah, like six months.
Jane Meno [00:19:22]:
Okay, so still new in my eyes. How did you vet the situation as it relates to your role in customer marketing and knowing that this was a good situation that you wanted to go work in the.
Cache Walker [00:19:34]:
So I only have, like, every. Every week. I only have one unique thought and I already gave that to y'all. No, I look at it as a consultant, right? Like, I'm not desperate ever to be miserable, right? Like, I'm only interested in going where I can be successful. I'm only interested in working with people that I want to work with. Like, just like you would turn away. There are certain customers, like, if this is not an opportunity, I want to work with this customer. Like, it's got to go both ways.
Cache Walker [00:20:01]:
And so I think as I've either matured as a professional or just gotten more jaded, like as I get older and I've seen so much stuff, I'm willing to say no to things. Like, I'm willing to have the confidence of a consultant and be like, we're not going to, I'm not going to take this on. But I mean, for me, especially when taking a new role, like, it's all about fit, it is all about where I'm positioned. Sometimes I get off on tangents too. Like, I think the best customer marketing positions are positioned where you own the customer as a product, almost as a PMM would own their product. You are the owner of the customer as a product back to your organization. So that was one of the things that led me to my current role is I sit within the vp of portfolio marketing. I am aligned with all of our other pmms and that was something that I had seen vision wise as I wanted alignment for my, my next position.
Leslie Barrett [00:20:54]:
Me too. I roll up to the portfolio head of portfolio marketing. So that is really cool.
Jane Meno [00:21:01]:
So, Jane, it's been a minute since you've started. You've been at Gong for what, like three ish years now?
Jane Meno [00:21:07]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jane Meno [00:21:08]:
Can you think back to three years ago? I can barely remember what I ate for breakfast, like yesterday. How did you vet the situation that you were walking into at gong from a customer marketing perspective?
Jane Meno [00:21:20]:
I think for me there's a lot of magic to gong in a lot of ways. But for us, brand is definitely a big part of what attracted me to the role in the first place. It immediately caught my attention. I wasn't necessarily looking, but I was like, oh, that would be cool to be a part of that. But I think what true love sold me actually goes back to maybe I'm not really obsessed with G two reviews either, Leslie, but looking at the G two reviews and it was like, I want to see the authentic voice of the customer knowing that I'm going to, in this role, go into a place where there's truly passion and excitement from the customer base. Like, that's the other side of the people I work with every day is, like, I want to be working with happy customers and people who are passionate and excited and makes my job of storytelling and activating and uncovering these folks so much more fun and creative. So I think them being able to take that again and, like, layer it back up to an exciting brand for me was a big part of it. But I think that's something I always think about, is when you can find an area where you either see, like, a great opportunity to bring in some big change for an organization or.
Jane Meno [00:22:23]:
Yeah, ride a wave of something, like.
Cache Walker [00:22:25]:
Really happy customers or, like, really cool technology. Jane, like, I mean, at the end of the chat, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, this is what you work with. Like, my mind was just spinning with ideas. So I think she's underselling how cool it is to work in that space and with some of the technology that they're rolling out.
Jane Meno [00:22:46]:
Yeah. And, I mean, I'm not to, like, plug or anything like that, but, like, for folks who haven't explored gong for, like, our roles, like, it's not, like, traditionally thought of for customer marketers, but it truly is, like, game changing. Like, all the information you want is in there. All the relationships, all the intelligence on, like, what people are saying about your business, it's in there just to, like, grab and unlock and take for yourself. Right. So I think there's so many ways that. I mean, cash, I love. I know you're sort of, like, a data expert and, like, an engineer in a lot of ways, and, like, how you build a lot of your programs for proof, but I think there's a lot of ways, too, that, like, in this sort of new phase of innovation within our world, there's new sources and new technologies that help support our jobs to work better and faster.
Jane Meno [00:23:28]:
We all are maxed out on, like, the number of programs we run. Leslie, like, I know. I just want to see you out there doing, like, your most cool creative work every day, right? And, like. But we all get bogged down in so much minutiae that we can't go do all of that cool stuff, right? So I think. I don't know. Cash and leslie, like, you both are pretty, like, aggressive on the technology innovation front, too. Like, where do you see some cool things that are happening today?
Leslie Barrett [00:23:53]:
I wasn't ready for this quiz. No, it's great.
Jane Meno [00:23:59]:
I just. Gosh, I know, like, you, we've had conversations about, like, you're, like, really, like, building architect, infrastructure.
Cache Walker [00:24:05]:
I'm just lazy, jane. You can say it. I'm all about working smarter, not harder. Right? And so, like, I mean, it kind of goes back to my philosophy of, like, I never knew this consultancy was such a big thing in my brain, but I'm stuck on it now. But, like, it's my job.
Jane Meno [00:24:22]:
You're, like, way past your good idea quota. So don't waste all of these in one podcast.
Cache Walker [00:24:28]:
No, but it's my job to make everybody at our organization good at advocacy or good at customer marketing. Right? Like, I'm only me. I can only scale so far. So. So I think my obsession then becomes, how do I make it easy for them to be able to do it? Because everybody's being asked to do too much, just like we are. But when you can find systems that help you scale your outreach, or scale where you can place templates for their outreach identifiers, like Jane saying, pulling data from gong. And you can build, like, a system that's generated to help your business be good at marketing to your customers, which, like, if you think it should be a core business principle, right? Like, if you cannot communicate with your customers and build relationships with them, what is your business? Like, what are you. What are you doing? And so, like, if we can build systems that extend beyond just capturing case studies or just extend beyond doing these little things and truly make the business good at all these core principles of our kind of sphere, I mean, that's what's cool.
Cache Walker [00:25:32]:
So I love. I love connecting data. I love just kind of making these things that are difficult for other organizations easier. And then I think, in the meantime, makes it way easier for me.
Leslie Barrett [00:25:42]:
I'm just going to dive into, like, a certain program, because ever since I started customer marketing, I cannot unlock how to do this good. I've never done it good. And that is customer referrals. And how do you get someone to give a shit enough to say, hey, friend, give me all your information, so then I can give it to them. Or fill out this form, get yourself a $5 gift card or something. Like, I don't know how to do this right. And I am hell bent on figuring this out, putting in my newsletter, spreading the word. And, like, I want to be the one.
Leslie Barrett [00:26:24]:
I mean, I'm curious to know if you guys have nailed this, but I sure haven't. And so the. There are tools out there that you can use to help with this. And. And we actually have user gems at Tapalte, so they have a cool new feature now that helps with referrals and actually says, like, oh, this person at this company is connected to these people and that they would be, you know, a good referral. So it's very proactive for them and it really makes the process easy. I don't really know much about it, but I'm gonna try and I'm gonna start it and I don't know, I just, I feel like this is a huge gap in customer marketing that no one really is like, does this. Well, do you guys agree or are you nailing this?
Cache Walker [00:27:11]:
Not nailing it. I removed it, like, from my options, like, in our platform. I was just like, you can pull that off there, seriously. But maybe that's just my jaded security view. But, like, to do anything, let alone give up somebody's private information, like, I just removed it. So if you figure it out, I would love to hear about it.
Leslie Barrett [00:27:32]:
Yeah.
Jane Meno [00:27:33]:
Say so many people, just in conversations that I have with prospects and other marketers, when they hear customer evidence, they really just think of case studies and testimonials and the three of you know so much better than I do, that customer evidence means so much more than just case studies and testimonials and referrals and everything else that we'll probably talk about here in a sec is really, I think, the magic that is customer marketing. So, cash, you mentioned the systems, and Jane, I'm sure you're doing a bunch of cool stuff at gong, but, like, what are the systems and processes that you're putting in place and you're working on to uncover the goal?
Jane Meno [00:28:09]:
Well, I'll say maybe one of the ways I think about the proof that we need to be creating is actually a learning or a mentality I have around the customer engagement side of the house when we're doing lifecycle marketing or retention marketing is that you have to be serving experiences and content that hit the needs of all the different people in the way that they want to consume. Some people want something quick and snackable. Somebody wants a long course, right? Like, you have to consider for like, the entire breadth of the ways that you can drive engagement. So it says the same on the proof front, right. Is you might need just a simple quote, right, that might go in a press release or on a web page or, you know, there's different applications for those. Or you might need that longer form, you know, complete story and piece. So I often think about the way that we are scaling to feed all of those needs. But a big portion of what we try to drive towards is going for more, bigger rock.
Jane Meno [00:29:06]:
Well thought out longer form content and then figuring out how we really, like, generate all the snackable content or the derivative content that comes out of that. So one of my playbooks has been bringing someone on to speak on a webinar. They come prepared, they come polished. They bring all the information and the details that you're looking for that, you know, sometimes when they just jump on that case study that they finally got around to doing, they don't prepare for in the same way. But when you give them a spotlight moment, there's a lot more of that. What's in it for me? And also there's a lot of higher quality. So can you take higher quality and then actually start to create a lot of other content from that and then find all of the different ways that you're proliferating those outputs? That's from my side. I don't know, Leslie.
Jane Meno [00:29:48]:
I feel like you. You also are, like, a master of, like, creating a lot of different kinds of content, too.
Leslie Barrett [00:29:53]:
I will say. Just to add to everything you said, collecting all of the proof points in one industry, condensing them into a, like, one landing page webpage, and then, or creating some sort of PDF for sales to send out for more. Top of the funnel. But just that was really successful. I remember just grouping all of the stories and then sending those out, and it was just like proof after proof after proof after proof in that same industry. And how can you not want to discuss more how it can help your business?
Cache Walker [00:30:30]:
I love that most of my good ideas come from things that I hate. And so I think, like to add to what you both mentioned. The thing I would highlight is the thing I'm probably most excited about on this front is we have a bot with user evidence that we are importing all of this into. So everything you mentioned, those long form pieces of content, these short term pieces, these feedback, these quotes, we're pumping it into this engine where the bot's only source of knowledge is the feedback from our customers. And right now, it's available to our internal teams to use. So if they're doing an industry page, they can get all that content right there from the bottom. But my goal is for this bot to be how our users find out about Trellix. Like, why would they, why would they take our word for it? Just talk to this bot that all its knowledge is verified by user evidence and its content is from thousands of customers.
Cache Walker [00:31:27]:
Ask it whatever you want. And that's the kind of speed we're all accustomed to right now with AI. We want it to all be smart. We want it to customize things. You can only build so many white papers. Right? But that's where my thinking is on this bot is, like, he can be customized, like, the interface to whomever they're talking to, based off of the questions. And that's probably the thing. Over the last year or so, I'm not sure how long ago I initially started bugging Ray on your teammark to do this, but, like, that's the thing I'm probably most excited about, is, like.
Cache Walker [00:32:02]:
And it all stems from. I hate doing customer reference calls. Like. Like, I think it's archaic. I think, like, it's just not efficient, and it sucks to manage. So I was like, there's got to be a better way to do this. Why wouldn't we just have them interface with a bot that can pull knowledge from thousands of. I mean, at Trellis, we have 40,000 plus customers.
Cache Walker [00:32:21]:
Like, you can't get that feedback from a single call, but you can from a bot. That's where I'm.
Leslie Barrett [00:32:28]:
I didn't know you could do that. That's pretty awesome.
Jane Meno [00:32:33]:
And thank you for bothering Ray. I bother ray enough, so maybe I'll just start feeding you ideas, cash, and just have you bother him, and he might say, yes.
Cache Walker [00:32:42]:
Absolutely.
Leslie Barrett [00:32:46]:
Here's a tip for anybody that does speaking opportunities or podcasts such as this. I have trained a bot on almost a million of my words through my newsletters, through speaking opportunities for everything. So this bot is me. And then whenever you have a speaking engagement or a podcast, you plug the brief into that and say, like, give me all of my talk tracks for all of my.
Jane Meno [00:33:16]:
Asking for a friend, aka me. How did you do that? Because I want to do that.
Leslie Barrett [00:33:21]:
It's called chat base co. All right.
Jane Meno [00:33:25]:
Really?
Jane Meno [00:33:25]:
I'm doing tonight?
Leslie Barrett [00:33:26]:
Yeah, yeah. It's low cost, and it's me, so I could, like, talk to myself.
Jane Meno [00:33:33]:
It's really weird, Leslie, I feel like that's so cool. You. Like, I feel like more of us, like, the future of all of our roles is going to be, like, AI prompt engineers or, like, leveraging AI, right? So I think more of us need to actually start exploring that. And already there's so many cool applications of, like, oh, like, I don't. We already have this whole trove of decay studies. Like, I can replicate this scale very quickly and easily and cheaper. Leslie, how did you actually build that? What did you go to do to create that? Or what's it look like to start that?
Leslie Barrett [00:34:04]:
Yeah, well, I started because customer marketers would ask me questions through my DM's, and I was laid off. So sure, I'll answer anything very fast because I'm not doing anything. And then I was like, wait a minute. I think there's a way to scale this. So I created my own chat on my website, CMA soulmate, so that people could just pop in and ask questions there. And then I started using it myself and asking myself questions, and then I was like, wait a minute, I think I can use this for my new job. So I trained it on all, like, Tapalti's case studies and data sheets and everything that's public. Okay? You can't, can't tell the chat what's not public, and then I ask that questions for my job.
Jane Meno [00:34:56]:
So you have more questions after we record, because that sounds pretty badass and very interesting.
Jane Meno [00:35:03]:
You've come full circle and become your own consultant. And I really love.
Cache Walker [00:35:06]:
Yeah, yeah. But that's what a consultant would do, right? Like, they're all about efficiencies. They're all about, like, kicking ass and taking names and like, okay, if there's a. If there's a roadblock, this is how we're going to work through it. If things are difficult, this is how we're going to management. I think that's the approach more folks need to take. I think, I don't know when I always say 2020, but I think, like, folks got a little bit lazy relying on certain platforms and thinking advocacy was something you could gamify and just throw people's way. And I think when 2020 hit, we all had to get real.
Cache Walker [00:35:37]:
Like, like, people have to take out the garbage or walk their dog. They're not sitting. I remember very, very well my highest advocacy times where Thursday and Friday afternoons from, like two to five, I could get a lot of activities completed in a certain platform because all of my customers weren't doing anything else, but they needed to sit at their desks and look busy. That time disappeared in 2020 and never is going to come back, I don't think. And so, like, we've got to be efficient. We've got to be scrappy. We've got to be thinking of how to get in front of them, how to make every interaction we have last more. And, like, how cool is this innovation? And, like, approaches.
Cache Walker [00:36:17]:
Like, I'm fired up. I need to drink now.
Jane Meno [00:36:22]:
Incredible. And I feel like, yeah, cash. Like, no one wants to be gamified, right? Like, no one has time for that. There's plenty of other experiences you could go do if you really wanted to. Get into that. But people want to have real, like, real engagement, right? Or they want to be able to, like, have real access to knowledge and information. So, really cool what you built, Leslie.
Leslie Barrett [00:36:39]:
Yeah, I did end up cloning myself on another kind of AI tool and then training it on my voice. And I thought it would be cool to be like, AI leslie. Then I started working for a company that I was doing social media for during the time I was laid off. And they were like, no, it's not. It's weird. We're all about kind of, like, you know, getting personal with the customer, and here you are as a robot. Like, we want real Leslie. And I was like, this bitch is cool.
Leslie Barrett [00:37:17]:
Like, it's me, but it's not me. Like, that's so eye catching. Nobody's doing that. Let's go. And ultimately, they scrapped it. But there is a video out there on my LinkedIn. I'm gonna post it so everybody can see she's a little choppy at the end.
Cache Walker [00:37:36]:
Oh, it has an interface. It looks like more than to be cash GPT. Like, that's my. That's my whole goal, right? Like, if I can build enough systems, I want to outsource myself because, like, I admit that I'm an inefficiency in the process. Right? And so if I can be systemized. But, like, also, like, I say that in just a little bit. I don't want to just be laid off because I automate myself. But, like, if people are complaining about not being able to be strategic in their roles, it's because they're not doing enough of that innovation to take care of that.
Cache Walker [00:38:11]:
That stuff lower. Once you build systems to support you, that's when you're going to be able to be strategic.
Jane Meno [00:38:18]:
Love that. Now, the big section of the episode that we kind of started to talk about at the beginning, and I'm glad that we saved this for the end. We weren't going to escape. This is measurement, and I think, for me, this is something that I'm still learning a whole lot about on how to measure the impact of customer marketing and customer evidence. So, Jane, maybe you get started and walk us through how you're defining success, what you're measuring, how you show impact, and we can kind of go around and see what everybody thinks.
Jane Meno [00:38:48]:
All right. I love that we're ending back on the soapbox, because I think we're going to really have some soapbox moments here. It's not easy in our world. It's definitely, like, kind of painful sometimes, but I think what I have done is built, at least for us, is like a framework for how we want to look at measurement. And I look at, okay, what are we doing that's sort of like the business level KPI's, like where are we supporting or where are we focusing so that we are strategically understanding where there's opportunity for us to be focusing on. And then we look at, okay, there's all of these programs that we run, what are the impacts and the results of those programs? And the best way we can associate those back to those business KPI's. And then there's again like the program level, like, or the, like the click down below that is like what indicators can I measure on those programs to sort of understand where I need to be refining or I have like gaps and need to be building and making more successful. So I think we sort of have this like three tier approach and where tie backs to the business and creating more for us.
Jane Meno [00:39:44]:
Like it's, you know, hardest to have the like true attribution of multi touch, you know, like longer term engagements.
Jane Meno [00:39:50]:
Attribution is a made up thing.
Jane Meno [00:39:53]:
It is a made up thing. And honestly it's very, it's obviously, it's very objective in every business. It's like all built on these kind of black box metrics of what you think is going to actually drive pipeline. But it's not fully representative of everything that a customer does engage with. And at some point someone is going to be looking for proof. At some point somebody does want to make sure that this is a true solution and validated. Right. So it's funny, we actually have a way that we can see people engaging with the content across any stage in their journey.
Jane Meno [00:40:21]:
We found that customers are four times more likely to be closed one if they did engage with customer stories. So we don't tie it in, we can't look at it every deal cycle, but we can actually see that it is highly influential and it's our number one highest converting program is engaging with customer proof. So we know it's there. It's just like very difficult to prove it out constantly and at a micro level for us. But I think it's the thing that every leader knows and instinctually gravitates back towards is customer proof is essential to my business. It's essential for me to close my deals, it's essential for me to grow my revenue and we need it constantly and it has to be fresh constantly.
Cache Walker [00:40:59]:
Yeah.
Jane Meno [00:40:59]:
So I think we just look at, you know, the best ways that we can drive indicators of the success of our work, even if it isn't always as cohesive as I would wish it to be.
Leslie Barrett [00:41:08]:
Since there is a big gap in attribution for customer marketing, I did what anybody would do and just created their own right. It really was bothering me, and I had to find a way to measure and save my job. I came off of a layoff in 2017, so I constantly go into roles thinking that I'm going to get laid off. Like, that's just PTSD, like, coming in hot. And so I'm always like, okay, well, I have to prove the value of my position. I have to show the ROI of my entire department with operating costs and headcount. So I was like, I'm gonna figure this out. And so, yeah, I did it.
Leslie Barrett [00:41:52]:
Shameless plug. I have a course out there how to measure the ROI of customer marketing and advocacy. It really was just a thorn in my side that, and I wanted to. I don't want anyone else to be in a position where they think their job is at stake because they can't show hard numbers. So I wanted to plug that. But other areas that I think are really important to show is that you are engaging, like, with. With all of your customer proof, and collecting more customer proof is about engaging new accounts that have never engaged with your brand before. That's huge.
Leslie Barrett [00:42:33]:
So it's. It's. That's where I come in, where I, like, love it. Where it's these creative multichannel campaigns to get people to finally engage with your brand and then using kind of like a demand base or something like that to see how many minutes they are engaging on your website and all of the stuff you're pointing them to and all the CTA's executives engaged, right? Because there's always a point. There's always going to be a point in time. Somebody up high is going to come to you and they're going to be like, why the hell is the CFO or the CRO in these case studies? We need to engage the other executives. And so having that in the back of your mind, having that program in your back pocket, that you're going to have to engage these executives at some point, then that becomes the point that everyone's looking at. And then you're able to say, like, okay, I got these executives engaged.
Leslie Barrett [00:43:31]:
I'm going to create a dinner for them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Jane Meno [00:43:35]:
Leslie, I feel like that's a great one. Like, executive engagement is, like, very difficult for everyone, right? That they're. They're hard to come by. Resource and I think for a lot of, like, our pipeline or, like, initiatives, we actually try to represent, like, what's the tam of our audience? And so I'll go back and actually look at, okay, well, like, if I'm on the hook to get executives on the record for their championship of our product, how many of them are actually engaged with us as a business? And so then I'm like, this is my tam, okay, I've got these couple hundred people to work with. Okay, like, who do we really want to cherry pick? And so you're actually, like, prioritizing it, and then you can take that argument back and say, well, hold on. Actually, for me to get proof from those folks, I have to go back to investing and engaging with them. And, like, how can we drive some motions around that? Or this is where the business has some gaps. Right.
Jane Meno [00:44:21]:
And so then it gives you more. Yeah, sort of like backing to be able to go and drive different initiatives for that level of interaction.
Jane Meno [00:44:29]:
Cash, are you out of good thoughts yet?
Cache Walker [00:44:32]:
I just refused to respond until after Leslie did, knowing that she literally wrote a course on this.
Leslie Barrett [00:44:39]:
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Really quick. It was funny. I went to a revenue ops conference, and I was like, I'm gonna find the person that tells me that my idea and my attribution model is shit. And every single person that I tried to show it to, they were all like, stop. Everything is made up. You just made it up. That's it.
Leslie Barrett [00:45:03]:
That's the one. And I was like, really? I'm so excited. So it's just like, it's all made up, basically. It's like someone has to say it. Someone has to, like, say that that's the definitive way to move forward with attribution and customer marketing. And I did it.
Jane Meno [00:45:21]:
Numbers don't lie, but they do tell a story, right?
Cache Walker [00:45:25]:
Absolutely. Well, in one thing I ran into, I think this was, what is the customer x con last? Last year, it actually was, like, a hot topic because I talked about where we were at a previous stop, like, influencing millions of dollars and tracking it, and somebody was like, how do you get a seat at the table to be able to claim attribution for that? I said, I don't want a seat at the table. It's the customer having a seat at the table. We're showing the impact of these accounts. We're showing the benefit of these accounts. So I think when you change that dynamic, whether you have to put it together. Right, Leslie, with your. With your metrics, I think it becomes an easier sell internally because this isn't customer marketing and claiming this impact.
Cache Walker [00:46:06]:
This is showing the impact of our customers on our business and the value of having cab members, the value of doing a user group, the value of doing all these things that everybody in the organization wants to justify anyways. You're just giving them a new lens to get behind you and justify that. So that's one thing that I did, is anything we track for ROI, I'm not necessarily claiming it as an impact. Obviously it does roll up under my program and I want to claim credit for it. But our primary goal is charting the impact of our customers back onto our revenue. And that seems to be an easier way to get people to get out of your way because it doesn't matter if it overlaps with somebody else. We're saying, what is the influence of the customer and that ROI and that impact? And then I would say, like the other note, I would say in addition to all these things, I think that are important. Your ROI and your tracking of these things and your metrics only go as far as your discovery has gone and you're learning about your business and those relationships.
Cache Walker [00:47:04]:
If people don't trust you, if people don't trust that you've looked into their business unit and the importance of their business unit, then they're always going to question you when you come back, that you are helping them be successful. When you say, hey, this is the impact our CSM's drove through customer marketing last quarter. This is the impact our sales team did. That's when I think people ultimately are going to buy in and sign off on any of those metrics or different things that you want to track and claim attribution for.
Jane Meno [00:47:34]:
So I feel like this group could probably talk for another couple hours on cloning, on cash, GPT on, you name it. But we are right at time here. I learned a whole lot from this. So first things first, thank you all for schooling me on what your world looks like and how you're doing some pretty badass work at each of your companies. So I appreciate you. Thank you for coming onto the proof point. We'll have to do this again maybe another six months from now and see how the clones worked out.