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The Hot Dish delves into the most pressing issues facing rural America. Hosts Heidi and Joel Heitkamp speak with policymakers, advocates and everyday Americans living across rural America about what's happening across the heartland and what should be done to make life better for rural America.ct's The Hot Dish, former U.S. Senator Heidi Heitkamp serves up insight into issues affecting rural Americans.
Heidi Heitkamp (00:05):
Hi, this is Heidi Heitkamp and welcome back to The Hot Dish, comfort food for rural Americans. We're talking with some interesting people today. First up is Nick Fouriezos. Nick is a reporter with Open Campus Project. He's been writing about higher education in rural America for years, and he's here today to talk about a really interesting approach that the state of Montana is taking to get its young people credentialed and trained in the kinds of jobs that employers are hiring for.
Joel Heitkamp (00:34):
And I'm talking about the childcare crisis in Missouri with Robin Phillips. Now she's the CEO of Childcare Aware of Missouri. In other words, she's right there on the front lines, trying to make sure people understand accreditation, make sure that people understand the need for childcare, and most importantly help kids. So let's get started.
Heidi Heitkamp (00:56):
Welcome to the Hot Dish, Nick. So excited to talk to you about this project because one of the ways we can keep population in rural America is train people for the jobs that are in rural America and make sure that they can make a living there. And so what have you learned from the state of Montana and what can other states learn from the state of Montana?
Nick Fouriezos (01:15):
Yeah, Heidi, thanks for having me. As you know, I report on rural higher education. I'm the only reporter in the country who's dedicated just to that. And in my coverage, I've seen so many challenges where students don't know if the degrees that they get, if the education they're paying for will lead to a job or career. You see, most companies are not sure if a recent graduate with a program with a degree is actually going to allow them to do the work and make them qualified. And you see, most universities aren't even quite sure if the curriculum they have will lead the students to get the job. So all around, it's a challenge that people are trying to face. And in Montana, they're gathering together some education leaders with a nonprofit called the Education Design Lab, and they're trying to solve some of these issues with micro certifications and micro pathways.
Heidi Heitkamp (02:01):
Well, I think there's been a lot of discussion in the last 10 years about over qualification, people putting things on job qualifications where you may not need a four year degree, but a certificate could do just as well and be a lot cheaper and get you into the workforce a lot faster. Is that what they're talking about or are they talking about revamping the entire system of higher education?
Nick Fouriezos (02:25):
Well, I think it won't be completely revamping higher education, but there is a portion of it that can be, and you're absolutely right that this program is meant to get people into careers faster. And so what exactly they're doing is they're taking 12 Montana colleges. In most states they'd be community colleges, two year schools, and they're creating these 12 to 20 micro pathways. These are stackable credentials that can be flexibly achieved.
Heidi Heitkamp (02:48):
Nick, give me a for instance on become a plumber and electrician. What's the for instance on the stackable careers?
Nick Fouriezos (02:56):
Absolutely. So as you know, medical assistant jobs all across the country are sorely needed, especially in rural areas. Just yesterday I was watching this process going where they met the college, the Education Design Lab. And the actual, a local employer, a local healthcare institution actually went through with them everything that an MA needs to have. And I'm talking soft skills as well as hard skills and what they need to be equipped to actually perform well in these jobs. And then they put them together in this really nifty program that essentially spits out "Here's what a whole curriculum around this would look like." And what's really fascinating about this is it's really a return to skills-based education. So these skills can be slotted in and out depending on the degree program. So there's so much transferability where certain skills are needed across multiple programs, but we create different curriculums for each one. This actually allows you to essentially create curriculums that are based exactly on what a certain occupational or job need is so that there's no question anymore whether or not that curriculum is actually fulfilling what the job is going to be.
Heidi Heitkamp (04:01):
So I'm going to play devil's advocate and I'm going to say we don't know what the jobs of the future are going to look like. But we do know that critical thinking skills and maybe a liberal arts education might be a valuable thing at some point, even though it doesn't credential you to do maybe plumbing, but it does give you the critical thinking skills. What's kind of the reaction to slotting people into these trade track when you don't know if that trade's going to be around?
Nick Fouriezos (04:28):
Yeah, I think it's a great point. I think one, you have to look at it from the perspective of the student. And you have to be able to give them options that make it clear what their route is going to be and what their potential outcomes are going to be. So one thing I think that's promising about programs like this is because they get the employer output upfront they can actually say when they show you the credential, "Hey, this is how long it's going to take, this is the average salary. And here the list of employers who have already approved this credential set, they're saying that you are already qualified."
(04:55):
Now, liberal arts education, I'm an English journalism major, I see the value in it and also these programs do too. So actually employers are telling these schools, I was sitting in this meeting, one of the most interesting things that they said is that the medical assistants that we have now, the number one skill they have to have, it's not the technical stuff we can train them. Those are all stuff that we want in the curriculum, but it's not the number one skill. The number one skill they need to have is deescalation. Isn't that wild when you think about it that they spend half their time getting phone calls trying to talk people through really difficult mental health situations?
Heidi Heitkamp (05:33):
Or you think about the ability to communicate, the ability to actively listen and how important that is if you're serving as a CNA in a nursing home, to actually have observation skills that can tell you, "Well, this person can't really communicate, but I think he looks a little sicker than he looked yesterday." And these are the kinds of soft skills that get undervalued. But if you've ever worked in those places, you know that the ability to take the food out to the table is one thing if you're a waitress, but the ability to listen and communicate and deescalate when people aren't happy is a pretty important skill.
Nick Fouriezos (06:10):
And so what I would say to that is let's separate out programs that do belittle those types of skills and programs that are more direct pathways to careers that the professionals themselves, the industries themselves are telling us that those soft skills, which are now being called durable skills by many people. Those are required as well, and they are part of the job description.
Heidi Heitkamp (06:31):
I used to give this talk when kids would come to the Senate, and I remember the 500 kids sitting in a room and I'm not exaggerating, and I asked them, "Okay, how many of you're going to be a plumber?" And just one brave young man in the back kind of half raised his hand and kind of got it down there. And I said, "Okay." I said, "Get your hand up. That's a good thing." Right away he felt like he didn't want to let people know he was going to be a plumber because that would diminish him somehow.
(06:59):
And then I said, "And I want everybody to look at this young man because he's going to be the richest guy in this room." Because I said, "I don't know what you're all going to need in life, but you're all going to need a plumber and there's 500 families who aren't going to have a plumber because you're not going to be doing that work, but that guy's going to be doing the work." And I think we tend to create a tiered system in our country of value of human labor. And I think that's one of the things that people repel from or parents repel from when you say, "Well get a credential, don't go to a four-year college." What is Montana doing about that, that kind of attitude problem?
Nick Fouriezos (07:43):
Yeah, I think that they're taking it head on, but also it's difficult to change culture and perceptions. I do have a problem with how much of the rhetoric seems to be like, "Okay, now every rural person needs to be either a welder or a nurse." If you're a guy, it's a welder. If it's a woman, it's a nurse. And that's not even true with-
Heidi Heitkamp (08:03):
Don't forget that truck driving.
Nick Fouriezos (08:05):
I was going to say, just because those are where opportunities are does not mean that we should be shoveling everyone into it and telling them that actually you don't even deserve to have another type of education. What we should be doing though is educating them on the options they have. And this is the thing is that students are very smart and also because of the internet and the way that people are aware of the options they have, especially in rural areas now in ways that they didn't before. And so what was really fascinating to me is I asked the administrator, I was like, "Do you see real competition from people saying, 'Hey, I've got someone on YouTube who's teaching me how to do real estate. I've got these different options now where I can learn online.' I'm seeing more and more courses where people are teaching how they were able to make themselves wealthy, be entrepreneurs, things like that, for 5K a pop. And you take a course and within six months you're making more than your parents do.
(08:52):
Now, not everyone can do that, and not everyone will be able to be an influencer, which is a whole separate category. But these kinds of teaching methods and students are seeing those options are available and some of them are choosing them. And so the same competition you're seeing where less people are going to four years and more are going to two years now, that competition is now going to be shrunk and faced on two years now in community colleges and they're trying to adapt to the fact that you can take a three-month course and be working in the field like that now. They're trying to offer some of that, but it's real competition from gurus online, some of who actually do a good job and some who don't. But there's a ton of competition now.
Heidi Heitkamp (09:30):
Yeah, you meet in the education space and the training space, and I think we've come to expect or know that credentialing from a legitimate organization or academic unit that actually says "This person has been through the rigor of this kind of training." But one of the things that we've seen in the student loan debate is all these fly-by-night folks who have been given the opportunity to disperse student loans through their programs, and then you end up with a degree that's not worth anything. And it's been particularly difficult for veterans because a lot of times those for-profit groups take advantage of the student loan program and students are stuck with high rates. In fact, Biden just dismissed and forgave a bunch of loans from for-profit organizations that have preyed on people. So I guess one of the things that I would ask you is what about credentialing? What about making sure that you're not going to be taken advantage of in a for-profit or fly-by-night organization? How should students avoid that problem?
Nick Fouriezos (10:38):
It's a difficult challenge and you don't always know what you're stepping into, but I always advocate to people to be getting work experience a long education so that they see where they actually like what they're getting into and what the actual opportunities look like. I also see micro-credentialing programs like this, and particularly skills-based ones. So here's so exciting about this. If you teach courses that are really just a packaging of a bunch of different skill sets that are put into badges, which is what this program is, and there are other ways to do it, but if you have a badge that says, "I have all these skills," then think about what that means for being able to quickly pivot that across different degrees. There are so many different degrees where these both durable skills, the communication skills, things like that, and also the technical skills apply across multiple degrees, but you get no credit for that.
(11:23):
Right now, if I have a technology degree that transfers across multiple mediums, it doesn't matter that I have the skillset. I only get credit for the one degree I got. Well, what if we were to say, "Okay, they packaged all this and they received these skill sets and now seven of those nine skill sets are in this other degree. Well, if they just go and get those other two skill badges, then they've essentially finished that degree too." And that just blows the door open where you're going to have people where you can create curriculums on the fly very quickly to be matched to a specific job and its needs as well as having students be able to realize, "Oh, my skillset sets are the important thing, and that's more applicable across more degrees and more job sets than I would've ever expected."
Heidi Heitkamp (12:06):
What a great example of, you may need to know Excel, whether you're going to be a bookkeeper, whether you're going to be at a nursing home, CNA. So what does that proficiency in Word or Excel, what does that mean for all kinds of job opportunities? It is absolutely fascinating. And what a great example, what great example of innovation that we hope will offer not only workload relief, getting more workers into rural America, but creating a more lucrative opportunity. But a lot of this is broadband is essential for all of this build out. And I know that we made huge investments in broadband, but having smart people like apparently those folks in the state of Montana, think about how you're going to deploy that ability is pretty remarkable. So Nick, any final words?
Nick Fouriezos (13:00):
Yeah, huge investments in broadband. Huge investments in access to other technologies. And unfortunately no way in many cases, and this is why I heard straight from people in Montana, that to actually implement it because of the worker shortage, because with broadband comes on just internet providers. You also have to have ditch diggers, and unfortunately you can't get the ditch diggers. So there are just so many ways where the policy we're having in DC is really well-meaning, and I'm really hopeful it gets implemented and there's good funding for opportunities, and yet I'm seeing all across the country, I've seen it on my home state of Georgia too. They're not actually able to use it the way it was intended. We've got to solve that issue.
Heidi Heitkamp (13:37):
Yeah, absolutely. What a great example. Thanks so much for joining us, Nick. Come back. Let's talk about other rural issues together. It's been fun.
Nick Fouriezos (13:46):
Let's do it. Sounds great.
Joel Heitkamp (13:47):
I got a chance to visit with Robin Phillips. Now she's the CEO of Childcare Aware of Missouri. So Robin, good to have you on The Hot Dish.
Robin Phillips (14:02):
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Joel Heitkamp (14:06):
You are so needed. Every state needs someone like you. What caused you to get into this?
Robin Phillips (14:14):
I've been doing this work for 23 years, and my honest answer to that is it's my calling. It's what I'm supposed to do. I am here to make a difference for children and to make sure particularly our young children can reach their maximum potential. So I figured that out well in my twenties, which was a while ago, and that's what keeps me fighting the fight because we have so much more work to do and the changes that need to be made to the childcare system, the funding behind it, the value of our childcare professionals, so on and so forth is long overdue. And I'm not going to be done with my work until something's changed.
Joel Heitkamp (14:53):
Robin, is this a bigger problem in the Midwest than what it is on the or West coast?
Robin Phillips (15:00):
I think it depends on maybe what industry sector we're speaking of, but my conversations with other people like me and other states and childcare where of America reveals it's a national crisis period, there is not enough of supply. There is lack of quality, there is lack of accessibility. Parents of many income levels, not just low income families struggle to afford it. And so it's like how do we best meet the needs of those in need of childcare services which are impacting the ability of employers to hire, retain, recruit, workplace satisfaction, all of those things. Because childcare is proven to be an economic development issue and is getting more attention. I guess that's the one thing we can... Well, there's probably several things we can thank Covid for, but from my perspective, Covid is what has peeled back the layer on that onion to help people better understand what's going on and that it truly is a conversation changer and we need to put on some different glasses to try and find some different solutions.
Joel Heitkamp (16:06):
Robin, I just had my 40th anniversary, which means that my daughter's about to turn 40. You do the math on what happened there, but I'm just going to tell you this, that her mother, my wife wanted to have a career in nursing. When we found someone that would watch our two girls, what we found was we lost money basically having childcare for our kids while Sue went back to work. She still did it because she wanted to be a nurse that bad. But it seems to me that that's going to stop people from having children.
Robin Phillips (16:43):
Well, there are definitely lots of reports or research studies or anecdotal studies coming out that younger people who are having children, possibly why they're having fewer children is because of the cost of childcare, which could also tie into where they live if they're in a smaller community and there's not a lot of options. I think the affordability piece of it is huge to pay for high quality, and that's what we are about. And that's what I'll always stand for is high quality childcare that is safe and nurturing for children is very hard to provide because it's expensive and it's very hard to afford. And that leaves fewer options for families to choose from. And sometimes they're choosing out of desperation because there aren't a lot of options in their community.
Joel Heitkamp (17:34):
Well, and that's where I wanted to go, which is the issue of quality childcare, certified childcare and how hard it is to find that. I made the argument back in my legislative days that if the state isn't willing to invest in that, then we're not really investing in a workforce. We're not really investing in the future in terms of the kids and what they're going to learn and be when they get older. I didn't get anywhere. I and other legislators that I was working with, we were so frustrated at the end of legislative sessions, we couldn't get... And I don't mean to sound partisan here, but it was pretty much my side of the aisle, the democratic side of the aisle that was pushing for certified childcare. And to this day, I'm not convinced that they've done enough.
Robin Phillips (18:24):
I tried to see it from both sides of the coin, if you will. Missouri is definitely from the seed I sit in, and I'm not in the state capitol on a regular basis. I do interact with people there on a regular basis, but the seed I sit in, I've definitely seen progress and forward momentum in mindset and the understanding and the value of early childhood education and investing. To me, that's a plus. But let's put some action behind those conversations. And I'm not an expert on tax credits, but tax credits were so close getting over the finish line last session in Missouri. Tax credits that would benefit childcare and employers who were investing in childcare for their employees. And it was filibustered within the last 24 hours of session. And it boiled down to, again, my perception of those who were filibustering, were doing it for personal agenda reasons and not necessarily for the things that many of us are talking about around building capacity, building quality of life in our communities, expanding access to families, and putting some sort of additional funding mechanism behind something.
(19:34):
Because even if the state invests more money, it shouldn't solely be the state, but there should be state investment, there should be federal investment, and there should be investment from, in my opinion, employers as an employee benefit. We staff 18 people here. We're a nonprofit organization, so I'm a little limited. We don't meet FMLA, but I am always going to fight for my staff because it's much more cost-effective for me to retain good staff than to keep having to rehire and retrain. And so providing other benefits that support family friendly work environments, and that's doable for us. We're not manufacturing, we're not having to be open 24 hours a day. So we can do that, but I think it's also the mindset shift of moving from, "Oh, that's a family's problem. They should figure it out," to "No, this is much bigger. This ties into a much bigger conversation." And I'm finding that more people are coming around to that conversation, but they're getting a little bit of analysis paralysis over what to do in the in-between of passing policy because policy is a long game and there's no guarantee.
Joel Heitkamp (20:41):
In North Dakota right now and in Minnesota, the biggest problem we have is we can't find workers. We can't find workers. Now, your motivation rightfully, is on the quality of that childcare, making sure that child is taken care of, understand it, appreciate it, thank God for you. But there's allies that would seem to me that we all should be able to work with, whether it's the Chamber of Commerce, whether it's people that are out there promoting and supporting pro-life. There should be groups that can come together that say, "Look, we need to invest in this." And I've always wondered why that coalition doesn't get formed.
Robin Phillips (21:22):
Well, we do play a role in some of those conversations because I want to be an innovator and I want to be a social entrepreneur in finding unique solutions that other people aren't thinking about. I kind of pride myself on figuring that out. Doesn't mean I have all the answers, but I certainly try to think outside the box. I think that oftentimes the conversations I've been having over the last 18 to 24 months with economic developers, local chambers, HR leaders, workforce development leaders, so on and so forth, is they decide and determine they need to have a task force or some sort of group that comes together to talk about it. And they don't typically have a childcare systems expert in those conversations to help them navigate the very layered, complicated system of childcare. And then oftentimes employers default to, "Well, I guess I'm going to have to offer onsite childcare."
(22:18):
And quite honestly, that's really not true. Yeah, that's a great solution. But many employers will tell you, one, they don't want to be in the business of childcare, and two, they don't want the liability. So what other options are there? Well, there are a handful of options, but if they don't have the right people at the table to think outside the box on those options, then they get stuck and then nothing happens. And that's what I'm seeing. And I don't think it's for lack of trying. I think people are intentionally trying to figure it out, but they're getting gridlocked and thinking there's only one or two things to do, and that's not true.
Joel Heitkamp (22:48):
So Robin, I'm curious about this. Let me play devil's advocate with you. We all know that it's not cheap to have quality childcare. It's not, and it is so important to have, but what I've always wondered if it's expensive, let's use that word to have quality childcare, why aren't more people getting into it? Why isn't there a fiscal reward for them to open that childcare and to be more entrepreneurial when it comes to it, if there's money to be made?
Robin Phillips (23:17):
Well, the business model of childcare is broken and has been for years. When you're talking about private or mom and pop or even chain childcare. I'm not talking about Headstart. That's federal money. I'm not talking about public pre-K in schools. I'm talking about standalone community-based childcare, whether that's in a childcare center or a family childcare home. There is no funding behind it other than the private pay parents and childcare subsidy. And when you look at subsidy rates in different states, particularly in Missouri, Missouri is one of the lowest reimbursement rates in the country for childcare subsidy back to the provider. And so because of those limited funding mechanisms behind community-based childcare, because of the funding it takes to go in to maintain their licensing, to maintain accreditation, if they've worked on that, to purchase food, which probably has a 20 to 30% inflation rate right now, if they're providing transportation, the cost of gas, the maintenance of the building, yada, yada, yada, it doesn't leave a lot of money to pay staff.
(24:21):
So in Missouri, the average wage of a childcare worker is under $13 an hour, no benefits. Nobody's sitting around with their college age children saying, "You should get in the field of early childhood education and childcare because you're going to make great living and you're going to have great benefits." And that's the kitchen table conversation that people like me, our organization and others are trying to change to create a career pathway or pre-apprenticeship or apprenticeship models that we need for trades, but we also need for childcare professionals as well. They're the ones who truly are impacting the brain development of a child in the first five years. Why wouldn't we want quality interactions?
Joel Heitkamp (25:03):
So Robin, I have to ask you this. After somebody who was in one of those state chambers, one of the biggest burdens I had was dealing with the men. Men were a real detriment to try to get something done. It was very much a divide. And I want to see whether or not that's been your experience.
Robin Phillips (25:22):
Well, in my 23 years, I've personally been told I should have just stayed home and mom should be at home taking care of their kids. And that's when I look back at them and ask them if they think it's still 1955. Because I used my personal example of, well, at one point in time I became a single parent and I wasn't making a lot of money, and I could have chosen to just stay home and maybe qualified for some benefits. Or I could buck up and do what I needed to do to be a contributing member of society and taxpayer and give my child other opportunities to learn and to have a partner in that relationship so that I could at some point in my life be someone who could give back, which is what I'm doing right now, whether that's with knowledge, information, energy, innovation, whatever.
(26:08):
But I will tell you though, in the recent years, these past years since Covid, I haven't had as much pushback from men, which is welcoming. And I think they're trying to be understanding, and I think we have people in Missouri, legislature of all lenses who seem to be more on board with it, but Missouri's very conservative. There's still plenty of people that think the government shouldn't be raising kids, which that's not what this is about. Or they think, "Well, I have family raising my kids, so they should have family too." Well, guess what? Not everybody has that support system.
Joel Heitkamp (26:46):
Robin, you need to keep doing what you're doing.
Robin Phillips (26:48):
Thank you.
Joel Heitkamp (26:48):
And you need to find more people to do it.
Robin Phillips (26:51):
Yes.
Joel Heitkamp (26:51):
Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a robin in my home state, and clearly we need one. So-
Robin Phillips (26:56):
Well thank you.
Joel Heitkamp (26:57):
... I thank you for coming on the hot dish.
Robin Phillips (26:58):
Thank you for having me.
Joel Heitkamp (27:00):
And that's our show today. It's always fun spending time with you on the hot dish. We look forward to visiting with you again soon. To learn more about the work of the One Country Project, visit onecountryproject.com. And if you like the hot dish, write us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Heidi Heitkamp (27:24):
And to support the important work that One Country Project is doing to elevate the needs of rural America and Washington, please visit onecountryproject.com/give. Thank you so much, and we'll see you in two weeks.
Speaker 5 (27:38):
[ 00:27:57] Voxtopica.