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Transform your preaching with SermonCraft! We interview some of today's best communicators to learn their secrets to captivating talks. Say goodbye to endless prep. Find your voice. Master your message.
Every episode is like a masterclass. Are you ready to revolutionize your sermons? Tune in to SermonCraft – where the art of preaching is made practical and tactical.
This is a podcast for communicators who teach regularly and want to become better and more confident in the art and craft of preaching.
We interview some of today's best communicators about their unique processes, habits, and secrets of turning a blank page into a captivating talk so that you can stop wasting valuable time in sermon prep, find your unique voice, and use the gift that God has given you with excellence and joy.
Join us as we unpack the concepts that helped us the most. Are you ready to change your approach to teaching?
Derwin: [00:00:00] I'm not a big fan of like, kind of like three nice, cute points that you could get at a Hindu mosque or a, or. A synagogue, right? Like, I want some blood, man. I, I want some high and lofty view of God. I, I think sometimes we get so practical. We've practically preached Jesus out of his own church.
Chase: Well, welcome to the Sermon Craft Podcast. Uh, this is a podcast for communicators who wanna become better and more confident in the art and craft of preaching. And so we interview some of today's best communicators about their secrets of turning a blank page into a captivating talk so that you can stop wasting valuable time and sermon prep finds your unique voice, and use the gift that God has given you with excellence and joy.
Uh, my name's Chase Gardner. I'm a professional speaker with about 10 years of preaching under my belt. Uh, this week I had the humbling opportunity to sit down and talk with another one of my preaching heroes. I grew up in Charlotte, North Carolina. I remember hearing this man preach multiple times [00:01:00] growing up, and as you'll hear, he's an unlikely person for God to call to be a preacher.
But that's how God works, isn't it? Now he's the lead pastor of Transformation Church. It's none other than Pastor Durwin Gray. Uh, this interview is unlike any of the other interviews I've done. Uh, you can tell early on that Pastor Durwin wants to get straight to the heart of the matter. And so early on in the interview, I threw out all my usual questions and just sat and learned and let the conversation go where the spirit wanted it.
Uh, his advice and his wisdom for young preachers was convicting to me, and I think it will be to you as well. Uh, so get ready and thanks for joining us for this episode of the Sermon Craft Podcast.
I don't know how you feel about the call to preach but when did God put it on your heart that, that you were called to open up [00:02:00] God's word and explain it to people?
Derwin: Yeah. You know, that, that's a, that's a really good question. 'cause I didn't, I didn't grow up in the church. I met Jesus when I was 26 years old, so I wasn't familiar with, you know, calling and those things. This is, this is what I knew. I knew that if Jesus. Could love me, forgive me, and transform me the way that he did.
I was compelled to believe that he could do that for everybody else. And so, I didn't know what evangelism was. I knew what preaching was. I just knew that there's a God who went to the cross and who rose again, and he's looking to transform PP people's lives. So that was kinda like the first thing.
And then people who followed Christ for years would say, you know you are an evangelist, or you take [00:03:00] complex things from the Bible and you make them simple. And so. As that took place, I started getting invited to go speak at different events. I was a former NFL player and so the NFL background draws people and I didn't know what a sermon was, and so my mentor said, look, share your.
Testimony. I said, well, what is that? He goes, well, your testimony is what was your life like before Christ? How did you meet Christ and what's your life like now? And then invite others to meet Christ. And so for several years I did that from 1999 to like 2004.
But in the midst of that the Holy Spirit awakened within me, not only the capacity to preach and teach, but also a heart for theology.
So I started working on my master's. Dr. Norm Geisler was my first mentor. So I pursuit a Master's of Divinity [00:04:00] with a concentration in Apollo jets. And so as I was doing these things. The calling, is more of a burden and not a bad burden, but it's a burden that people need to know Jesus. And every believer has that burden, but specifically as a teacher, preacher, I begin to envision myself.
Speaking in front of a congregation, and it was a congregation with black people and white people and Asian people, Latino people, rich, middle class, poor, young, old, right? And, and so God began to form within me a desire to lead. A gospel centered multiethnic church, and so the calling to preach was simultaneous with that.
But at the end of the day, it comes down to this. There's a holy burden that's placed inside of you to [00:05:00] communicate the work and person of Jesus Christ, that that is the forefront, that is the fulcrum that everything else comes out of.
Chase: Do you, did you have public speaking experience before that? Before? Like your salvation experience?
Derwin: I grew up as a compulsive stutterer,
and so speaking in front of crowds was not something I ever wanted to do. It was a deep place of pain. As a matter of fact, in the fall of 99, it was right after I retired from the NFL, I got invited to share my testimony at a youth bench. Youth event in Columbia, South Carolina.
And I remember being like in the shower, just crying saying, you know, God, why would you send me, I'm, I'm a stutterer. You know, this is such a place of pain. And I didn't hear an audible boy voice. But what I sensed was this is I sensed the spirit of God saying if the father can raise his son from the dead, he can raise your tongue to talk, but you [00:06:00] have to go to see the miracle happen.
And so that was one of the first lessons of just the Christian life. It's a life of faith. And, and faith is not faith in faith. Faith is in Jesus to be Jesus for his glory. And so, no, I I did not have a preaching or, or a public speaking class. The one thing that's interesting though. Is the doctrine of justification that in Christ we're declared a very righteous of Christ.
Therefore, God Father is not only fully pleased with us, but he sees us as though we are Christ. And so when I began to see myself that way, it helped me to understand that a lot of my stuttering was rooted in childhood trauma. And so as I began to see myself, the way God sees me, he began to define me. He began to rewrite my past.
And so for me, preaching and teaching, I'm so grateful because it doesn't have to [00:07:00] be that way. I.
Chase: Mm-Hmm. Oh, that's powerful. That's good. You've already mentioned it and I've read your book on it as well, but that calling for a, or that vision for a multi-ethnic church, how did, did that shape the way that you communicate or the way that you approach sermon series or preaching on different topics?
Mm-Hmm.
Derwin: 100%. Number number, number one, and this is gonna sound tongue in cheek, but I hope everybody hears it when you exe the text. And do proper hermeneutics. You have to preach in a multiethnic way because from Genesis. To Revelation, Genesis 12, one through three God promises Abraham, a family made up of all the nations.
And then at the end of the Bible, we see in a new heaven, a new earth, every nation, tribe, and tongue. And so Jesus, the seed of Abraham lived, died, and rose again to give God the Father this multi-ethnic family. And so when you look at the [00:08:00] text, you see God moving towards that trajectory of an every nation tribe and tongue people.
And the Greco-Roman world was incredibly ethnically diverse. And so one of the proofs of the resurrection is that Jews and Gentiles who hated each other, became family and friends.
Chase: Mm-Hmm.
Derwin: Enemies, enemies. We no longer foes, you know, they were in Christ. And so as I communicate and preach and teach, having a cultural awareness to who I'm speaking to is incredibly important.
And you know, it's, I find it interesting as a football player, right? You see college coaches who build multi-ethnic football teams in the South all the time. And how do you do it? You have a vision, you have a playbook, you have a team, you execute, cook, execute [00:09:00] well. We as the church have a vision. Go make disciples.
We have the body of Christ, we got the playbook, but yet still we're all awkward and weird about, about, about it. So whenever I train pastors on how to build a mul multiethnic church, I say, look at college coaches. Look at how they're able to build ethnically diverse teams. But this is deeply rooted in scripture, deeply rooted in the gospel.
And so therefore, when I preach and teach, it's important that I can relate. To everyone that's there. One of the greatest things that's ever helped my preaching is when I would go to my kids' elementary school and read books. So I was one of the only men who could go to the school and read books to the kids.
So from kindergarten up to basically sixth grade every year, I would go into my kids' class. And I would read books, and I knew that in order to keep the [00:10:00] kids' attention, I had to be dynamic. I had to tell stories. My voice had to change. And over the years, the Lord was actually teaching me how to communicate because if you can keep the attention of children, you can keep the attention of anybody.
Chase: Yeah. No, that's so good. I'm, I'm really interested to hear how your preaching kind of changed over time. 'cause you were going from sharing your testimony and then the call slowly became, Hey, I, I feel called to plant this multi-ethnic church. And so instead of, I, I assume when you were speaking, given your testimony, there's probably two or three sermons that you kind of used and now
you have
Derwin: I had one.
Chase: You have one. Yeah.
Derwin: Here it is. I framed everything around Galatians two 20. I've been crucified with Christ and only I who lives, but Christ who lives in me, though I live in a body, it's by faith and son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. And I had three points around my, my, my testimony. One is [00:11:00] we're all looking for unconditional love.
Two, we're looking for significance. He gave himself for, for me. Three, we need a power beyond ourselves. Christ lives in me. And I built my testimony around that for four or five years. So
Chase: Yeah.
Derwin: wore Galatians two 20 out.
Chase: So what was the process like moving from that one talk into, well now I gotta preach 50, 52 times a year? What did that look like?
Derwin: Well, the first thing that it looked like, it looked like falling deeper and deeper in love with Jesus. And when you fall deeper and deeper in love with Jesus, you begin to see the magnitude and the scope of who he is, what he did. And how what he did creates the body of Christ ushering in the kingdom of God.
So first and foremost, and I say this to every single preacher, the hardest thing you're gonna have to fight, particularly in an American context, [00:12:00] is preaching against. Consumerism and individualism. Consumerism says, what can I get from Jesus for my life to be better? Individualism says life is about me, myself, and I.
And so that's the first thing is we have to have a kingdom of God centric. Hermeneutic and understanding, and what I mean by that is this, Jesus is king. He was vindicated and validated as king through his victory over sin and death and his resurrection. Therefore, salvation is not about what God can do for us to achieve our dreams.
Salvation is a divine invitation into the kingdom of God. So that. Our purpose as bearers of his kingdom would take place by grace through faith. [00:13:00] Secondly, we need a Christ-centered understanding that all of scripture points to Jesus. John chapter 5 39 through 40, Jesus says to the Pharisees, who by the age of 12 knew from Malachi, knew from Genesis to Malachi.
They knew their Bibles, he said. You search the scriptures daily. Because you think they point to eternal life, but the scriptures testify to me and you won't come to me. He also says this on the, on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24. And so from Genesis to Revelation, it is all about Jesus. Every historical redemptive event in the Old Testament points to the fulfillment in the.
New Testament of Jesus himself. Case in point let's just look at the Exodus. He's a greater Moses. [00:14:00] He's a greater pass over lamb. Let's get to the wi, wi wi wilderness. He's a greater tabernacle. He's a greater fire by night, cloud by day. He's a greater high priest. Jesus is the greater, he's a greater Adam.
He's a greater Noah like. Everything points to Jesus. So the goal of preaching is not to get people to do something. The goal of preaching is to get people to worship someone, and his name is Jesus. Because as Romans 12, one and two says, I urge you brothers and sisters in view of God's mercy. Be a living sacrifice, which is your reasonable act of worship, be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
You may test and approve of God's good, pleasing and perfect will is. And so if I could just give a exhortation here, we have way too many [00:15:00] pulpits that have very little blood on them. If you want transformation to come to the church, you, you lead. If you wanna see revival, our pulpits need to bleed more.
And what I mean by that is this. You can go to YouTube and learn ance. You can, you can go to Instagram and learn all these things about good advice, but all those things are things that you must do. The one place people should come is in the house of God on Sunday. M morning, Jesus should be the highlight of the message and what he has done and what he's accomplished.
And if you exegete the scriptures correctly, that will be the case. You don't want people leaving going, wow, what a great sermon. You want people leaving going, wow, what a great savior. What a great redeemer. I had no idea Jesus was that epic. And here's, and here's the thing, Jace, is I'm thoroughly con convinced you don't have to be dynamic to be a faithful preacher.
Preach the life [00:16:00] death, resurrection of Christ, and all the beautiful clusters of what he did through his atoning work, and the Holy Spirit will do the rest. We have a lot of bloodless christless pulpits because people have lost faith in the gospel and so they give good advice, not
Chase: Yeah.
Derwin: news. We need more good news.
Chase: That's so good. It sounds like when you had that one talk on Galatians about how Jesus has changed your life, about how amazing Jesus is and could change other people's life. You haven't really moved on from it as you go from book to book and, and as you learn as you went through your theological education, your view of Jesus just got bigger and bigger and bigger.
And it's basically the same talk you've just been given week after
Derwin: Yes,
Chase: is what we need. And that's what Paul did as well. That's beautiful.
Derwin: Yes.
Chase: Well, I, I do wanna ask you too 'cause you've been doing this for much longer than I have, but what is your process like now? 'cause you have a lot on your plate.
[00:17:00] You're not just a preacher, you're a leader, you're an author, you're a speaker you have influence in all these different pockets. What does your process look like now from determining what transformation Church is gonna go through the sermon series and from planning that out to like your weekly, Monday through Friday, Monday through Saturday?
How does this sermon actually get written? How do you go from a blank page to,
Derwin: Yeah.
Chase: outline?
Derwin: Yeah. So let's, let's back up, right? So first of all. Your identity determines your priorities. So my identity is not pastor. My identity is not husband, my identity is not dad. My identity, first and foremost is blood bought child of God. Who happens to be a husband first, a father second, a lead pastor.
Third. So my priorities are shaped by my identity, [00:18:00] so I want my life to be an overflow of the sermon, not the other way around.
Chase: Right.
Derwin: So in light of being a husband, in light of being a father, but first and foremost being a recipient of Grace, I have determined that I need to do less to accomplish more. For some reason, people think if I do more, I'm gonna do more.
Alls you're gonna do is have more burnout, and so as a result of that. There are very few things that I do, but I dig deep into those things and it requires discipline because everybody wants your time. Now, as it pertains to sermon preparation this is gonna freak some people out. So just hear me first.
Okay. Right now as we're speaking, and I don't know if it's okay to say the date, but It is, it is, it is January 1st. Uh uh, I'm sorry. It is January [00:19:00] 11th, 2024. I have sermons planned out right now all the way to Thanksgiving of 2024,
Chase: Okay.
Derwin: and the way I do that is in June, I take a study break slash sabbatical for seven weeks, and during those seven weeks, the first three is purely rest and reading.
The next four is. I am planning out the sermon series for Transformation Church. And so what I have is I have a prompt where it talk talks about, basically, what do you want to achieve in this message? And, and have various prompts that I answer, but where we're going as a church, number one is driven by the text.
Number two, it's driven by what's happening in our culture. [00:20:00] And so I'm always prayerful to listen to the spirit of God, of how we want to be formed around the word of God to join the Son of God. On mission, but the more preparation and ahead of schedule I am, the more it helps and the more it blesses our calm team, our music team, our production team, but also for me.
So right now we're going through a series called My Name. Is, and we're looking at the names of God. So last week we did, my name is Yahweh Raw, so when I got to the outline, I didn't even have to prepare a sermon outline because I did it last June. I.
Chase: Oh wow.
Derwin: And so like, like right now, I, I know that sounds formidable, but it takes discipline to do that and it'll be worth it.
Now perhaps some people on more of the charismatic stream will say, well, how are you not listening to the spirit? I'm like, well, isn't [00:21:00] the spirit all knowing?
Chase: Mm-Hmm
Derwin: And, and so God can give you. In advance an understanding, but the, the word of God is always relevant and always on time. And the goal of my preaching is not to inform, but to transform.
Chase: mm-Hmm. That's good.
Derwin: But yeah, so so on Monday. What I do is I fill out the sermon outline, send it in to our team. I get on a treadmill, I work through the sermon out outline, which I studied months ago. And when I get ideas for illustrations then I am write those in my notes. But also when you read the Bible a lot.
And you practice good hermeneutics. A lot of the pre-work has already been done. Like I, for me, I don't get, like, I study 35 hours a week re respectfully. Did you prepare or did you wait for one week? [00:22:00] Because if I were to load all my hours in, it might be that, but I just spread them out over time and that frees me up to, to shepherd, that frees me up to do other things as well.
You know, so, so Mondays I do that Tuesday. Our I present it to our music team and production team. Wednesday, I'm marinating in it Thursday, I'm marinating in it. Friday's, my Sabbath, Saturday. I look at it one more time and I preach it. So by the time I preach the message, not, not only have I done the pre-work, but I've gone through the message probably at a minimum of five times before I preach it.
But when you read the Bible a lot. Your Hermaneutic is already there, but being proactive is very, very helpful. It's, it's blessed our church. It is it's blessed me as well
Chase: That's Now, do you have a community of people or other people that [00:23:00] speak into that or they see your first draft and say, maybe you can go here, here? Or
Derwin: now. No.
Chase: ask people for illustrations Or,
Derwin: No. Mm-Hmm.
Chase: and God thing?
Derwin: Yeah. I so. Our other pastors, they're in the meetings and they're able to learn and to watch how I go through the process.
Chase: Mm-Hmm.
Derwin: But for me, preaching is deeply, deeply personal. And so it's not a talk that I'm giving that, Hey, gimme a story. 'cause I don't have a story for my talk. You know people do it in various ways.
I don't, I don't view preaching as something separate from my own walk in spiritual formation. And so, if someone has a theological idea that can add to to it, man, I'm all for it.
Chase: Mm.
Derwin: So. Hopefully I'm modeling it by what I [00:24:00] do, how I train the other pastors to walk through it. But I'm not really a fan of taking other people's illustrations 'cause I can't preach it if it ain't come from my
Chase: Yeah. And it didn't happen to you maybe. Yeah.
Yeah,
that makes sense. Now, when you say, when you've run through it, is that just you thinking in your head? Are you speaking out loud? I know a lot of people, even me, I mean,
Derwin: in my head.
Chase: home and doing it out loud sometimes,
Derwin: Yeah, so yeah, so like pri primarily it's gonna be on the treadmill, so it helps me to exercise more 'cause it makes it goes faster and I'm doing the message, and so I'm primarily rehearsing it in my head. When I was younger, I would actually preach it out loud in my upstairs office at home.
The problem is, is you can do that when you're doing one service, but when you. Do two services, three services, four, five. Your voice can't take. Take that. So now I've just learned to [00:25:00] settle it into my soul to really marinate in it, to sit in it, to soak in it. But, but here's the main thing though, and every preacher needs to understand this.
Don't bifurcate your life from the sermon.
Chase: Right.
Derwin: Please do not do that. I tell our people all the time, the word I'm preaching to you is the word. I want God to preach and live in me.
Chase: Mm-Hmm. No, that's good. When you get up on, and you can tell that when I've, when I watch your sermons live or online. There is a deep internalization that's happened. So there'll, there'll be a stepping away from the pulpit and a speak and you're like, man, that is the spirit speaking through him. When you get up on stage, do you just bring a loose outline?
Do
Derwin: Yeah.
Chase: three points? Do you use an iPad? What does that look like?
Derwin: Yeah. Well, first of all, I don't use any Apple products because Adam and Eve [00:26:00] ate from that tree, which was a Apple. I know that's in the Bible. But no, I, I use a a surface tablet and so I have a outline and I may jot some notes in, in, in, in it. But I do know some PE people who manuscript, who do a manuscript, whatever works for you, do that.
Chase: right.
Derwin: The main thing is whether, if you manuscript or outline exalt Christ, preach the gospel of grace, invite people to participate in what God is doing, and also you, you know, if somebody's gonna come to a service, they don't need like a shtick,
Chase: Yeah.
Derwin: like they need revelation,
Chase: Yeah.
Derwin: you know? And also, they need to know you've actually been through something yourself,
Chase: Mm-Hmm.
Derwin: like you've [00:27:00] actually got battle scars for walking with Jesus.
Like, I'm not a big fan of like, kind of like three nice, cute points that you could get at a Hindu mosque or a, or. A synagogue, right? Like, I want some blood, man. I, I want some high and lofty view of God. I, I think sometimes we get so practical. We've practically preached Jesus out of his own church.
Chase: Right. Oh, that's so good. You, you mentioned it earlier about materialism and about consumerism, and you've preached for a few years now. Right? So transformation started when 2010, is that when the first public service was?
Derwin: mm-hmm.
Chase: What would you say, what do you think is the biggest hurdles or the biggest areas of concern for preachers over the next five or 10 years?
So as they. As you look at your church, what are some of the burning issues or topics or things that that preachers need to keep in the [00:28:00] back of their mind so that the church can keep moving forward?
Derwin: So anytime Jesus and the gospel. Is not preeminent, the church will die.
So when I say Jesus and the gospel, what I mean by that is this, the same gospel that saves sinners is the same gospel that sanctifies saints.
Chase: Mm-Hmm.
Derwin: And so when you look at different denominations, most denominations are the result of, of a renewal movement within a denomination.
So ca case in point, the Norwegian Baptist in the 16, 17 hundreds, they came about because the Norwegian Lutheran church was spiritually dead. Methodism came about because the Anglican Church. Was dead right? And what brought about life, the [00:29:00] proclamation of Jesus. What happens is, is we think we need to graduate from him onto other things.
So number, so number one, always keep the redemptive work of Jesus preeminent. Number two, be courageous enough to shepherd your people. Against political division that's knocking at the door.
Chase: Yeah.
Derwin: Number three, you can still have a traditional historic biblical sexual ethic and still love L-G-B-T-Q people.
Chase: Mm mm-Hmm.
Derwin: Let's see what's another one? And and then lastly, lastly, I mean there's more, but just for this time. Lastly the biggest danger is not living out what it is you're preaching. [00:30:00] I'm really concerned like, like holiness, which is to be conformed to the image of Christ, that needs to be. At the top of what our goal is as pastors is not to be like the best CEO, but to be holy.
And beautiful exhibiting the fruit of spirit. We want to be a, a beautiful garden of grace, of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. We want to, we, we want to be holy people through the work of the spirit because of the gospel, right? And so sometimes I get concerned that pastors try to be too cool instead of holy.
Chase: Yeah. No, that's so good. What would you say and this will be our final question to someone like me, I'm not that young, but a younger preacher. What's one or two things that you would, and I just from our brief time together, I think I could hazard some guesses [00:31:00] about what you would say. But for those, those that feel that call to preach, that feel, that burden that you talked about who have deeply experienced the grace of Jesus has transformed their life, they wanna devote their life and part of that of, to glorify Jesus, part of that would be preaching in front of a congregation regularly.
What are one or two things you would encourage them to do to, to get better at
Derwin: Yeah.
Chase: gospel?
Derwin: Number one, if you're married, if you want to be a better preacher, be a better husband and better father than preacher. I.
Chase: yeah.
Derwin: That's number one because your wife and your kids are gonna know you better in a congregation and they're gonna know if you're smoking what you're selling.
Chase: Yeah.
Derwin: And the more authentic you can be in those loving relationships, the more powerful you're gonna be.
Chase: Mm-Hmm.
Derwin: And number two is spend time soaking and immersing yourself. In the word [00:32:00] of God more than listening to your favorite preacher.
Chase: That's good. I, it's almost like you, because you didn't have a whole lot of experience with the church. This story is super unique from all the guys that we've interviewed, from people that I've talked to, a lot of the pastors grew up in the church. They have preaching idols that, and even that they idolized even with me, like when I started preaching, I sounded a lot like Matt Chandler and a lot like John Piper and a lot like the pastor that I grew up with.
It's almost like you've had a unique voice. You've had your voice like the, the very first few times you spoke. I'm sure you tried to imitate someone, but it, it, it's almost like you were blessed with this unique story and experience with Jesus, that you didn't have to go through this process of not sounding like other people and instead you just use the voice that God gave you.
And a lot of [00:33:00] what I'm hearing in your story too is, is you do spend a lot of time just soaking in the text. So it's. It's months ahead of time. You're actually so, so that by the time you get there, that word has had, its, its opportunity to work in your heart, to work itself out in your life. It's almost like you're testifying to the truth that you're preaching.
You're not, you're not telling 'em about a truth for the first time. It's a truth that you've actually experienced in your own life.
Derwin: Yeah. Yeah, man. You know, so. One of the blessings of not growing up in church is you don't know a lot of those things. And so early on there was a guy named Adrian Dupre who was an evangelist and he was very like dynamic and I love that. Tony Evans taught me that you can be doctrinally sound and dynamic as well.
Dr. Norm Geisler, who's not a preacher, but a lecturer, taught me that you can use your mind when you preach and teach. And, and [00:34:00] then, so the first time I heard Matt Chandler preach, I was man, I, I think it was like 2006, seven. And I was like, oh my gosh, I can't preach. I never wanted to preach again. I had, I had, I had never, I was like, wow, this is amazing.
Right? But, but then you grow when you're able. You're able to see more, right? And then you kind of develop your own thing. And if God wanted me to be someone else, he wouldn't have made me.
Chase: Yeah.
Derwin: And so even with how when I would take my preaching classes in school and they would give us the example how to do it, I said, well, the main thing is making sure you exegete the text and your her hermeneutics are on point.
And then with delivery, there's three things. There's ethos, you know, man wow. Character. There's [00:35:00] pathos, he fills me and there's Sia. He knows what he's saying. So those three have got to be, be there. But how you uniquely c communicate that? It's so important. And I can tell all the Matt Chandler clones, 'cause they move like him, they do their hands.
I mean, it's, you know, and, and so it's like, no. Find, like learn what you can, but get on your face and
Chase: Yeah.
Derwin: his pace of grace, in you.
Chase: So good. Well, thank you for spending some of your day with us Durwin. I know a lot of people are gonna benefit from this. I know I have. Man, thank you so much.
Derwin: I appreciate it, bro.
[00:36:00]