EP 43 The Toxic Environment of the Empty Red Seat - and How to Cure It

In this episode Tony and Steve tackle toxic work environments and Tony's fantastic ability to kill wasps from more than 10 feet away.  What is a toxic work environment? What role do front line managers play in creating or toxic environments?  Do front line managers or the C-suite have a bigger impact in your efforts to improve culture?  In this week's HR in Life Segment the guys talk about misunderstanding the meaning of ethics. Why do people mistake bad business decisions for unethical behavior?   

The five elements of Toxicity
Abusive
Disrespectful
Unethical
Cutthroat
Non-inclusive

Quote of the Episode: "So is this something he needs to talk to Jesus about?"  - Tony Benjamin

Learn more about Fantastic Tony Benjamin at: https://www.thegrangellc.com/
Learn more about Steven “Big Deal” Smith at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/
Learn more about the books mentioned on the podcast at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/hr-life-podcast
Learn more about our sponsor MegastarHR at: https://www.megastarhr.com/
Lean more about Jobs for America's Graduates (JAG) at: https://jag.org/

Join us at Fuel HR on May 14.  Learn more at: https://hracu.starchapter.com/meetinginfo.php?id=88&ts=1744305292

Creators and Guests

Host

Fantastic Tony Benjamin

I am a unique HR leader with more than 20 years’ experience working for some of Utah’s oldest, fastest growing, and most well-known companies. My experience includes Superior Drilling Products, Air Medical Resource Group, Control4, Ovivo USA and Deseret Book. I am a regionally recognized authority on building successful cultures and am an alumni speaker at DisruptHR SLC and DisruptHR St. George. I have earned an MBA from the University of Phoenix, a Bachelor’s degree from Utah State University, and am a certified Professional of Human Resources (PHR). I'm married to a woman out of my league, have three brilliant kids I doesn’t deserve and, although I travel a lot, live in Vernal, Utah.

Host

Steven "Big Deal" Smith

Steve will be the first to tell you that recruiting is marketing. He earned his Bachelor of Science in Finance at Brigham Young University and started his career in recruiting in Feb 2005. In 2008, he took a risk during a recession to help start a new company with Ryan Kohler, called ApplicantPro, a full suite HR platform for small to mid-sized businesses. In March 2025, ApplicantPro became iSolved Talent Acquisition, now serving 177,000 clients and close to 9800 employees. Before the merger, ApplicantPro made the Inc 5000 list 12 years in a row, Top Places to work in Utah 3 years in a row, and Steve was named the Small Business Utah HR Achievement Award winner in May 2024. iSolved was also named an Indeed Platinum Partner in 2023, 2024, and 2025 and is one of only ten ATS platforms in the country to obtain that designation. SHRM-CP & PHR certified, Steve currently volunteers on the Utah SHRM State Council as the immediate past State Executive Director. His book, The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction, was released in early 2023, and has helped thousands of organizations across the country rethink their approach to hiring. If you need help understanding the principles and role of SEO, marketing, and AI when it comes to attracting job seekers, Steve provides a solid framework for hiring effectively.

What is The HR Life Podcast?

The HR Life Podcast is a show about the work-life experience of those of us in Human Resources and business leadership. This long-form podcast is a conversation, casual, and not always the corporate line. Hosts and guests touch on everything from serious or even controversial topics to the absurdity of modern American business practices. Your hosts are Tony Benjamin, owner and founder of The Grange Strategic HR Consulting, and Steven J. Smith, Author of The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction and all-around important guy. Guests include the best minds in the HR world. Join the show weekly.

Tony Benjamin (00:08.77)
Welcome to the HR Life Podcast, a podcast about the work life experience of those of us in human resources and business leadership. Your hosts are fantastic. Tony Benjamin, owner and founder of the Grange Strategic HR Consulting, and Stephen Bigdeel Smith, who is so important that a hive of wasps will sting everybody around him, but leave him alone. Hey, Steve.

Steve-o (00:37.951)
Wow.

Tony Benjamin (00:41.324)
Am I right?

Steve-o (00:41.715)
I mean, the last time it happened, yes. Nobody touches me. They got my dog, my wife, my kids. And I'm like literally in the middle of it all spraying the things and yeah, nothing. just don't touch me at all.

Tony Benjamin (00:55.416)
Yeah, nothing bothered you. Well, you're a big deal, dude. You're a big deal.

Steve-o (01:03.007)
I tell them I don't have Mexican blood in me. I just kind of make fun of my wife at that point, you know, because they're desperate to you all on. So I've just I'm I just tell them it's I'm telling us that blood. They just love that kind of blood or something. Ratten. Yeah, exactly. Sweet and spicy. mean, let's be honest.

Tony Benjamin (01:12.322)
That's Latin blood or something, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. That's hilarious. It's like, no, there are certain members of my family that mosquitoes just don't bother. And then there's other members of my family that the smallest mosquito bite turns into a giant bump on their arm. Yeah. So.

Steve-o (01:31.499)
Get some that's crazy. You know, it's interesting. So recently I was outside doing the was stuff because you have to check everywhere. I found one that was literally bigger than a table seat. Under our deck like it's not a table seat, sorry. Yeah, there was a nest as big as like a chair like the the when you sit down on a like just kind of a normal chair that size, because I have like this little mirror that I'll go under the deck and I'll find out where it is so I know where to spray and all that.

Tony Benjamin (01:45.56)
You mean a, you mean a nest.

Tony Benjamin (01:53.42)
Wow. Yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (02:01.889)
And I have never seen a nest that big before. It was ginormous. I could not believe it. And it completely covered an entire square section of the deck right there. Completely just enveloped it. was unbelievable. Like I said, I've never seen it that big before. So.

Tony Benjamin (02:09.496)
That's crazy.

Tony Benjamin (02:21.464)
Yeah, that's well, there you go. I stay I am allergic to bee stings. And so I stand I stand way away with the wasps spray. Like, you know, I get the one that sprays 1012 feet and I stand 1012 feet away and spray it and spray it until the whole nest gets so wet and logged with stuff that falls off the house and hits the ground.

Steve-o (02:27.93)
Steve-o (02:35.659)
Hahaha!

Tony Benjamin (02:45.602)
And then I back up waiting for each one to come out and I zap them individually. I'm by the way, I'm probably a better shot with was spray than I am a shotgun. Just saying. So yeah, right. Right. There you go. So.

Steve-o (02:55.977)
Wow, that's impressive. You know, like that guy in the Olympics who just kind of stands there, it looks like the mafia just boom. You seen that? Yeah, where he holds a gun to the side. It's so cool.

Tony Benjamin (03:04.801)
That that guy who won the who won the silver last time. I have it. haven't. Yeah. Anyways, there it's a kill shot. So that's what movie was that from? It's like the date or something like it Steve Carell and it.

that there's some guy who's mugging him and his wife. They're on a date and the guy he's got a gun pointed at him and he turns it sideways and Steve girl starts it. Oh, it's a it's a kill shot. It's a kill shot. Oh, that's what that means. He starts freaking out. So I can't remember the name of that. Somebody in the audience will have to email us in and say what that is. So here's here's something funny, Steve.

Steve-o (03:21.657)
I don't even know.

Tony Benjamin (03:47.174)
I have gotten lots of people talking to me about embarrassing stories lately after they heard our last episode. No, not one to share yet. Nobody wanted to share them. They're like, I'm thinking about doing it. And I'm like, you should do it and tell us where it is. That's right.

Steve-o (03:53.577)
Yay. Do we have one? Not yet. they're just like. Just do it. Yeah, to all of you listening right now, please, please share. We will. We can remain anonymous. We don't have to share your name. We can make up names like we could totally make it worthwhile. So absolutely, just because right? Yeah, why not?

Tony Benjamin (04:13.71)
We can say it happened to Steve. So that's right. That's right. yeah. Anyways. OK, everybody, if you haven't guessed yet, this is another empty red seat. And I'm really excited that we're doing this. Steve and I are trying to take some time and really get into some topics that we've been thinking about lately. I. Yes.

Steve-o (04:37.897)
and requests, right? Because there's clients going through some of these things. There's just people that we know. And so these are really, to me, very relevant topics.

Tony Benjamin (04:42.264)
That's right.

Tony Benjamin (04:48.864)
Right. And, you know, in my consulting work, I get it where people, you know, how do you fix a toxic environment? How do you make this happen? How do you change things? How do you make it better? Right. And often for me, I'll go into someplace, an organization, and they'll say, hey, we've got these, all this politics is going on. And I kind of always describe it as mean girls, only the, you know, it's not the students being mean, it's the staff.

Steve-o (05:01.089)
Yeah.

Steve-o (05:14.667)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (05:17.196)
But, but I you know, that anyways, it can get crazy. And they're like, well, how do we fix this? Like, how do you get rid of it? Because everybody is caught in this technical vision of the world. Well, you were mean to me first, and therefore I can be mean back. Or my favorite don't you're not professional, I'm professional. And therefore I'm in the right, you're in the wrong, I can say whatever I want about you, as long as I do it professionally. And you're like, okay.

Steve-o (05:43.809)
Or politically correct, right?

Tony Benjamin (05:46.69)
That's right. That's right. Your education is not showing through. And I'm like, well, that's a fancy way of saying you're stupid. So.

Steve-o (05:54.017)
the

or you don't have the right. I had a CEO way back in the day that I worked with and he, if you did not have education from specific schools, he would shun away like, oh, you're from that school. Oh, that's a bad school. Like, yeah, he would just kind of use it as a way to say, nope, not them. It was interesting, right? So.

Tony Benjamin (06:08.728)
credentialing. Yep. Yep.

Tony Benjamin (06:16.118)
Yeah, I once had a controller in a company tell me that because my MBA was from the University of Phoenix, that it wasn't as good. And I was like, really, who taught you operations in your MBA? And they would let me go. Professor at the school, right. Well, OK, well, the guy who taught me was the director of operations for Boeing. Who do you think got the most out of their class? So I don't know.

Steve-o (06:24.609)
Nice.

Steve-o (06:37.985)
Right? No, I think and I think there's relevancy to that, know, BYU right now they're they're doing a huge push to hire people that are actually in the profession as professors over there and not that they haven't done that in the past, but there is a big difference between just the education side of it and the concepts.

Tony Benjamin (06:45.026)
Right.

Tony Benjamin (06:52.864)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (07:01.357)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (07:03.015)
and actual real life, hey, this is what we had to do to make this work, or here's the issue we had to deal with to make sure that toxicity wasn't present or what have you. So there's some relevancy to that for sure. I was grateful for some of the professors I had that were just, you know, from Marriott and just various other big, big organizations where I learned a ton. So.

Tony Benjamin (07:12.418)
Right, right.

Tony Benjamin (07:25.998)
Yeah. again, I think it's important that you've been there. So we wanted to talk to you about toxic work environments. And we're going to talk a little bit about one of the reasons why I wanted to touch this in the HR life segment or the HR in life segment. I wanted to, you know, I'm dealing with some clients and some different stuff like that. know, with those clients, how do you get rid of a toxic work environment? How do you bring it back under control?

And first of all, so here, here's what let's just start here. Cause we hear toxic environment all the time. We hear it all the time. And sometimes you. Right. Exactly. And so sometimes you hear that and you're just like, it's not toxic around here. What are, what are you talking about? You're, think it's toxic because you suck at your job and you're mad because your boss doesn't like how you're doing. Um, right. So, um,

Steve-o (08:06.305)
Yeah, the term toxic.

Steve-o (08:22.869)
Which is a totally different thing.

Tony Benjamin (08:24.91)
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Well, and there's a whole nother. Go ahead.

Steve-o (08:29.665)
Yeah, you you bring up a good point. Sometimes that word, especially right now, just kind of gets thrown around really loosely, right? And so I think understanding precisely what it actually is is really important. so, yeah, anyway, and I have an idea. There's like five, I actually was gonna write an article on this, you know, like, I don't know, maybe a year ago, I just never did it.

Tony Benjamin (08:36.908)
Yes. Yes.

Tony Benjamin (08:47.532)
Yes. No, and that's that note.

Tony Benjamin (08:56.27)
Yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (08:57.109)
But there were like five dimensions that I found of toxicity. So I can share that later, but yeah. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (09:02.348)
cool. Yes, yes. We'll we'll we'll dive into this. So I think I think that's the first question, right. To start, what is a toxic work environment? So in when I.

Steve-o (09:11.071)
Yeah, and it's not just feeling unhappy. Just throw it. It's not just feeling unhappy because sometimes we're simply unhappy because we're not doing our jobs right. So yeah.

Tony Benjamin (09:14.936)
Ding.

Tony Benjamin (09:21.206)
Right? Right, right. Well, and you get defensive and then you become worried and stressed all the time and all that and then you think it's toxic. So no, I think the key phrase in this and how I've always defined is that word toxic. What does toxic mean? Means it kills you. OK, so if if I'm out spraying some chemical all over the place all the time and it gives me cancer, that's a toxic chemical. Right. So when you talk about a toxic work environment, you're usually not talk usually.

Steve-o (09:36.085)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (09:50.99)
not talking about physical abuse or something like that, although it can be that or harassment or assault, right? I've represented some people that have had sexual assault in the workforce. It's gross. Right, right. But so there's that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it can be physical or it can be that sort of thing. But usually what it is, is that when people are they create an environment

Steve-o (09:56.809)
It can be, Yep.

Steve-o (10:04.429)
it's so sad too. Yeah. That's the abusive side, right? Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (10:20.546)
which harms the human soul and motivation, right? And it depresses you just to be a part of it. Now, I'll say this, there are some people that thrive in toxic work environments, right? They're just, they're awesome at it. They're kind of like those fish at the bottom of the sea, you know, that are at the bottom where the two continents come together and it's like leaking sulfur into the ocean. And there's all these life forms that can only live there.

Steve-o (10:46.977)
and they're just eating it up.

Tony Benjamin (10:49.742)
It's exactly right. That's right. That's exactly right. They're the sort of thing you never want to catch on the end of your fishing pole. there you go, because they'll bite back. there are some people that thrive in that sort of thing. But most people don't, right? Most of us can't do that sort of thing. Like we can't.

Steve-o (10:51.755)
And they probably glow. It's a different kind of glow, but.

Tony Benjamin (11:17.198)
And this of course leads to burnout and well, first of all, it leads to disengagement, right? Reduced effort. And then it leads to burnout. And then it leads to all the things that come along with that. Meaning people hire, they use their PTO more, they're absent a lot more, higher sickness levels, whether that's legitimate or not. look, everybody,

Steve-o (11:45.865)
Yeah, they could call in sick just to avoid the situations, right? I mean, that's it's just the reality. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (11:50.354)
Yeah, yeah. I used to have a job, my first job out of college, as a matter of fact, where I woke up every day and I wondered if I was sick that day. Am I sick today? Can I stay home? Do I have enough PTO to stay home? And every single day I had to go through that process, right? That's why I have a rule that I don't call in sick until after I've gotten up and gotten dressed. When I get dressed, then I can decide if I'm sick or not because,

Steve-o (12:18.239)
Wow.

Tony Benjamin (12:18.382)
Yeah, but so, okay. So, so there you go. Now, Steve, you're going to maybe do you want to drop in your toxicity things here?

Steve-o (12:27.359)
Yeah, let me me let me tell you the five dimensions of toxicity. These are the five. So when I was writing my book in twenty twenty two, this was actually a study, I think from C-suite for eleven, if I recall correctly. And one of the the they really broke this down really well. So toxicity, first of all, is abusive. We've already addressed that. We've talked about some of the abuse of nature. The second is disrespectful. So there is some type of disrespect that's happening within the work environment. The third is unethical.

where you're literally just seeing things that shouldn't be happening, but they are. And obviously that creates an environment that can be considered toxic. You also have cutthroat environments. I've seen this a lot in the sales industry and in sales in general. It can be very cutthroat at times. And then the last one, not the fish cutthroat, right? No, it's just, you know, putting down others to bring yourself up or to put yourself in a better position. And so you're just cutthroat. You're like, I'm going to just...

Tony Benjamin (13:13.312)
And not the fish cutthroat, not the fish that you catch cutthroat, right?

Steve-o (13:25.281)
kill anybody I need to, you will, not physically kill them. But although we have seen some, I've seen that on Dateline, anyway, the last thing is non-inclusive, Non-inclusive. And non-inclusive typically has to do with, know, think about the Sherm case that we talked about recently, where she was left out of some of the meetings with some of the very team members that she needed to be a part of.

Tony Benjamin (13:31.992)
Yeah. Right.

Tony Benjamin (13:49.411)
Yep.

Steve-o (13:49.769)
And that was a non-inclusive issue, right? That created toxicity in her world, but non-inclusiveness is a type of toxicity. So those are your five, abusive, disrespect, unethical, cutthroat, and non-inclusive. So when you're thinking about toxicity in the work environment and what does it actually mean, those five, for the most part, I have found sum up the majority of toxicity in the work environment. And really what it boils down to is there's

Tony Benjamin (13:55.96)
Yep.

Steve-o (14:18.965)
There's this erosion of dignity, fairness, safety, right? know, things like that. And so when those types of things are starting to erode around you, that is when a toxic work culture begins to formulate. And the crazy part is, is a toxic work environment may not have been there five years ago, but it's here today, right? Especially for those of you listening and you feel like you're in one of these environments right now.

it can just stew and formulate over time due to a variety of reasons. But again, those five things are usually where they stem from.

Tony Benjamin (14:56.182)
No, and that's and that's really important. My wife and I were last night. We were not last night. A couple of nights ago, I guess we were watching the show Jobs and I think it was on Netflix. It was, you know, a biopic. Mm Right, right. And look, I've I've let me say this. I have known people that have met both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and both of those men had toxic behavior problems. Now, both of them are brilliant.

Steve-o (15:06.949)
is it like about Steve Jobs, that one? Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (15:25.602)
Both of them are freakishly talented and brilliant. And their mind works different than most people and they whatever, and they have super high expectations. And they achieved incredible things, especially, well, both of them did. Both of them changed the world at different times, right? But they were...

Steve-o (15:29.217)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (15:40.609)
Yeah, they really did. I mean, think about how addicted we are to this little tiny device now in our pockets. That court case just went through recently. That was some wild rides, but yeah.

Tony Benjamin (15:47.597)
Yes, exactly right. It's exactly right. yeah, yeah, we'll have talked about that sometime, Facebook and Meta and all that, making it addictive. every time I think of the word addictive, do you remember? Do you ever remember watching Welcome Back Carter? Do remember that show? see, you're you're too young. OK, here we go. Everybody get out. Now get ready. The theme song was.

Steve-o (15:55.797)
Hahaha

Right?

Steve-o (16:08.081)
I don't think I've ever seen it. Honestly, I've never heard of it. Sorry, I'm too young.

Tony Benjamin (16:15.948)
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back. It was it was about a school teacher who was in the ghetto and got out and went to college and came back to teach the kids. Matter of fact, it's where John Travolta got his start is on this show. But there's this really interesting scene where where John Travolta is there a bunch of thugs, right? They're like, you know, Fonzie kind of guys and.

Steve-o (16:28.161)
I dunno.

Steve-o (16:32.447)
Interesting.

Tony Benjamin (16:43.298)
And they're all there and they decide one of them, one of them. Yeah, there you go. Look it up people. So anyways, think inners in inner city street thugs in the 1970s. Okay. So, and I guess Fonzie was fifties, but anyways, there you go. That's, that's who you're, you're kind of thinking about. Anyways, one of the guys in the, in the group gets on drugs and, John Travolta decides that he's going to pretend that he's on drugs to get his.

Steve-o (16:44.863)
I just laugh because I know people don't know who Fonzie is. Sorry.

Steve-o (16:53.502)
man, good old happy days.

Tony Benjamin (17:12.876)
get his buddy to to act normal her to get off drugs. And so he just goes around the whole episode. Give me drugs, give me drugs, give me drugs. I'm addicted to drugs. Give me drugs. The whole episode. And so anytime you see addictive, that's what I'm thinking about, right? Give me Facebook, give me Facebook. I to see Instagram. Come on, come on, give it to me. That's what I'm. It was a long way for not a very big laugh. So

Steve-o (17:22.561)
us.

Steve-o (17:27.166)
Wow.

Steve-o (17:36.981)
Wow. Yeah, I mean, I hope, I wish I could hear the cackles from our listeners right now.

Tony Benjamin (17:43.82)
Right. Now I've totally lost my choo-choo again. What were we talking about? We were talking about.

Steve-o (17:51.425)
think we're talking about toxicity in the working world.

Tony Benjamin (17:53.76)
Yes, I remember the pig subject. Thanks Steve, I appreciate that.

Steve-o (17:57.057)
Which by the way, did you know that we've got rodeos and stuff coming up and bulls, bulls are always in toxic relationships and do know why? Because when they see the red flags, they always go after them.

Tony Benjamin (18:12.206)
You heard it here first people. I got a million of them. That didn't help. That didn't help. They just made it worse. well, some I'll be listening to this later before we post it and I'll go. that was what I was supposed to talk about. Yeah. Anyways, go ahead.

Steve-o (18:22.145)
I know, was hoping, I just was gonna throw you off more.

Steve-o (18:28.353)
And you're like, man, I remembered it now.

Steve-o (18:32.811)
Well, and think about what a toxic work culture, what does it impact? Like there's unhealthy habits, you have conflicts that start happening within the work environment, people start disagreeing, it harms morale, sometimes there's physical harm. Obviously there's retention issues. Productivity is a big deal as well. And we've talked about quiet quitting and some of these things, but those...

Tony Benjamin (18:58.647)
Right, right.

Steve-o (19:00.405)
Those are well-beings, if you will, that we have to have in the work environment that totally kills any type of desire for them to actually help your business grow.

Tony Benjamin (19:09.76)
that's what we were talking about. We were talking about Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. And I know somebody and I haven't talked to him a long time, but he used to tell a story about Bill Gates. When he went into Bill Gates, his office, Bill Gates picked up the phone off from his desk was a wired phone and he smashed it on the desk and threw it at this guy's head and started screaming at him because the budget that he had been allocated, what he had asked for was higher than what they had originally wanted to do.

Steve-o (19:11.777)
Mm hmm. Correct.

Steve-o (19:32.853)
Whoa.

Tony Benjamin (19:39.175)
And my point in all that was just that you can be brilliant and have great ideas and have great product ideas and whatnot, and even change the world and still be toxic. Look, there's no way I could work for Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs always would say that he used to yell and scream at people to see if they really meant what they said, if they really intended to mean, you know, if they believed in their idea enough to put up with it, to keep pushing it forward.

Steve-o (19:50.741)
Yeah. Yep.

Tony Benjamin (20:09.44)
And I thought, bull crap, whatever. You just don't have a control on your temper. But there are some people who did some brilliant work at Apple and tip of the hat to them and all that that's there and all that Steve Jobs created. But I could never work for that guy because I don't thrive in high pressure. I just don't. And most people don't. OK, so I want to talk now. We're talking about this. What is the difference between just its business and ruthlessness or cutthroat, as you called it?

What's the difference there? What do think? I'm open to your input before I mouth off anymore and forget where I was going.

Steve-o (20:45.121)
You know, what this does is creates another practical question that I often think about to answer this is, you know, does your leadership style create conditions where people feel like they can do their best work or is it a condition where people feel like they constantly fail or are afraid to fail? And that's kind of one of those self-evaluations that you can do, if you will, that kind of allows you to, I don't know,

Tony Benjamin (21:06.466)
Yes.

Steve-o (21:14.721)
Is my leadership style actually benefiting the organization at this point? You know, obviously this is self-reflection and unfortunately people that are in a toxic mode Don't always necessarily want to self reflect but for those of you listening, you know And maybe you don't even realize you're in a toxic work environment. Those are some questions you can ask yourself Do you feel like you're you're somewhere where you can do your best work or do you feel like you're afraid?

Is there fear there? Are there conditions or factors that are keeping you from actually progressing in the workplace or, or, you know, in anything that you're doing? And so I think, yeah, I mean, those are really important. Um, I get it that, that business requires that we go out there and we make money and that we are profitable and we, we do what we need to do. But I'll tell you having co-founded applicant pro over, over the years that I was there,

It amazed me. The moments we were a little too ruthless, it was like taking two steps back. And when you're acting that way and it impacts the people that you're working with, it doesn't work. It doesn't work at all. It creates failure. And I think sometimes it creates more mistakes, even when mistakes probably shouldn't have happened in those particular situations.

It will create more mistakes simply because people are on edge or on eggshells as they say, right? Or coals of fire trying to walk across the in Hawaii or whatever. But yeah.

Tony Benjamin (22:45.218)
Yep.

Tony Benjamin (22:49.164)
No, actually that's a really good analogy because back in the 70s and 80s when they had those hot coal walks, you walk across hot coals on your bare feet. And what it was is that they would wet the grass around or whatever you stood on before you walked across the coals. And it would put this layer of water on your feet. And as you walked across the coals, coals would just

Steve-o (23:00.257)
Mm Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (23:16.822)
sizzle off the water and not hurt you would be hot, but it wouldn't hurt you until you ran out of the water on your feet. And then you were in trouble. Right. And that's that's exactly it. Eventually, it burns you. Eventually, it gets you that that's that's a great analogy, Steve. I think that's a really good analogy. I'm not

Steve-o (23:20.129)
Yeah.

Steve-o (23:23.553)
Okay.

Steve-o (23:29.131)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (23:37.663)
And it's because we have to still conduct business. We have to make money. You know, when you think about it from a leadership perspective and only because I've been in this situation so many times, my employees are depending upon the success of the organization. And in order for us to pay them, in order for us to provide hours, in order for us to do all the things that we do, we still have to conduct business. Right. It has to be done.

Tony Benjamin (23:41.613)
right?

Tony Benjamin (24:05.484)
Right, right.

Steve-o (24:07.393)
And when mistakes are made, and you know, who was it that we was it Andrea that talked about that experience with that person who made like that huge like $2 million mistake that that could have gone really wrong? I think it was. Yeah, I think it was Andrew. I mean, that is such a good example of you still have to run a business and sometimes mistakes get really costly. And if we could have prevented it, let's learn from that if you know, and if you can't well.

Tony Benjamin (24:18.902)
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Steve-o (24:38.099)
Now we have to own up to it and move forward, right? You know, it's like Josh used to say, if there's something going on, you come to me first, right? Talk to me first or blame me first before we start jumping into everybody else. No, Josh, remember, because Josh was the one that talked about how, especially in his sports analogies, because he played volleyball and did a lot of the coaching. Yeah, he would talk about you blame me first as the coach, if you will, before you start blaming.

Tony Benjamin (24:50.412)
You mean Jeremy? You mean Jeremy, right? Jeremy?

Tony Benjamin (24:58.996)
that's right. That's right.

Steve-o (25:06.537)
your teammates around you or whatever, because maybe I didn't create an environment that was conducive to you actually being successful here. So he usually took it as a, we need to probably improve things here. So again, business is absolutely required. Ruthlessness is where you, yeah, that's your cross on the line, you know?

Tony Benjamin (25:26.104)
Well, it's, I think every, this idea that, and this is what Rachel was talking, Rachel Child was talking about when she was talking about theory X and theory Y, right? That theory X is that people have to be motivated and you have to push them to get their best out of them. Whereas Y theory is that if I inspire them, they will rise to the occasion. And I think you can take one or the other, I think,

in our modern age, theory Y is a lot more productive and achieves a lot more than theory X. I also think it's, well, it's just more sustainable. It's more sustainable. The idea of the super heavy pressure and all that to get into it is no one can do that forever, right? And for example, there are some industries that are really famous for this. The oil field is this way.

Steve-o (26:04.715)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (26:22.676)
The oil field is famous for working you. They work you seven days on seven days off and you're working 12 to 14 hour days in those seven days. You get paid really well, like really well. And and you're you're making a lot, a lot of money. But the moment the market slows down, even in the slightest, you get fired and you're gone. And none of those guys, because it's physically demanding and it's emotionally demanding, none of those guys last super long doing it.

Matter of fact, when I worked at Superior Drilling, we would lose some guys, some young guys every once in to the oil field. And they would, they'd go, hey man, I'm getting paid twice what you're paying me. And I just shake their hand and hey, congratulations, go make some money. When you're done doing that stuff, because no one does it forever, you give me a call if you need a, and you won't make the money you were making, but you will, you'll be much happier. Matter of fact,

Steve-o (27:13.205)
Yep, come back. Yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (27:21.089)
Well, yeah, and they'll appreciate it more, right? Because now they've seen that other side, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (27:23.968)
Yeah, exactly. As a matter of fact, when we were opening a shop in Abilene, Texas, we're just outside the Midlands, right? And they're in the Midlands where they're where they're drilling a lot of wells and all that sort of stuff. And the oil fields big. We advertise and we said, Are you tired of not being home with your family every night? And then and they would say, Why are you doing that? Come work for us and have a stable environment in which to work. And we got lots of applicants.

Steve-o (27:47.445)
Yeah, that can be attractive to people, especially when they're in. I remember when I when I started my recruiting career, I was living in Philadelphia and my my goal right out of college was to make six figures. I was one of those types. I was just I'm going to go get her, go make six figures and start. And what's sad is I did it, but it was so much more expensive to live in Philadelphia that six figures meant nothing.

Tony Benjamin (27:52.247)
Right.

Tony Benjamin (28:03.246)
You're gonna do it? Right, right.

Steve-o (28:15.957)
Like it meant absolutely nothing. And I realized at a very young age that it is actually not about the money because you have to learn to budget. have to. There were so many things that I just got slapped in the face pretty hard back then. And and so it was that was pretty rough for a while. Right. Because I was like, I finally made it. I'm here. And it's like, wait a minute, this isn't even this doesn't go anywhere these days. It just doesn't. And so anyway, so so that

Tony Benjamin (28:41.55)
Right, right.

Steve-o (28:44.735)
You know, we have to think about, again, business, right? As opposed to being ruthless. I was really ruthless trying to get to that six figures, but it turned out it wasn't good business for my family. And so, you know, there's a balance there and that's kind of what you have to find. So.

Tony Benjamin (29:01.356)
No, no, you're exactly right. And that's why some industries are predominantly young, right? It's because people are hungry and they'll put up with anything. then they, right?

Steve-o (29:09.387)
Yeah, no, they will put up with the more so true. I was I I look back I could never do that again like that because I was working 90 hours a week back then to write to make that kind of income and man, I I missed a lot of those first, you know, couple years of my daughters and that was not a good trade off for me at all. And yeah, you learn.

Tony Benjamin (29:28.46)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, and again, and again, just and again, just because someone's holding you accountable doesn't mean they're ruthless. Right. I think I think there's I think there's a difference there. But to what you said earlier, everybody has to feel safe in order to do what they do. And well, here's

Steve-o (29:39.147)
Correct. That is correct.

Steve-o (29:50.581)
Well, and if you're going to hold them accountable, you need to provide the right tools and measures that actually help them feel successful. I've been in a lot of environments where all those things change and then the tools are taken away and just a lot of things are removed. And it's like, OK, now you're expecting double the work, but you've removed half the tools that we can use to get there. It just it makes no sense. That is not a business to me. That's being ruthless.

Tony Benjamin (30:12.93)
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve-o (30:19.751)
even though you think it's business, because you're just looking at numbers on a sheet of paper and saying, OK, well, we're going to save money here. But at the end of the day.

Tony Benjamin (30:28.332)
No, no, you're right. a lot of especially small business owners will say, hey, I'm working all this time. Look, I own my own business. There are often times when I'm up at 10, 30, 12 at night and I'm doing stuff, right? Because I didn't have time to do it during the day and I'm sending off emails and all this stuff. And, you know, when it comes time for me to start hiring people, which may be soon, as I as I start doing this, then

Steve-o (30:32.096)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (30:38.879)
Yeah. Yep.

Tony Benjamin (30:53.346)
when I I start hiring people and that sort of stuff, then it isn't fair for me to say to them, you should have the same level of dedication as I do. I own the company. And the more the company's worth, even if it's not in cash, the better off I am. Right. But if them if they because you pay them a salary or whatever, if the company makes twice as much, it doesn't necessarily mean better for them. Even if you're giving them bonuses or whatever the overall value of the company doesn't help them.

Steve-o (31:23.222)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (31:23.254)
So right. And then all it is is, the extra long hours worth the pay literally right now or the bonus at the end of the quarter or something like that. So, all right. let's take a break here and let's do Becca's read running a business is hard. HR shouldn't be mega star. HR is here to save you from bad HR with expert support and everything from hiring to handbooks, compliance to culture, need payroll help or recruiting power.

Steve-o (31:29.537)
Correct.

Steve-o (31:38.091)
Sweet!

Tony Benjamin (31:52.473)
we do that to fractionally and flexibly no overhead just results visit megastarhr.com and let's grow your business together. Shout out to Becca. Thanks, Becca. We appreciate it very much. Okay, so now, okay, so I think I think we've talked about the difference there and understanding what ruthless is and ruthless is I'll just define it as high pressure all the time. And

Steve-o (32:06.933)
Yes, we do.

Tony Benjamin (32:23.128)
hyper accountability.

Steve-o (32:24.479)
All work and no play, that's how I define it. And I know that's kind of a loose way to describe it, but yeah, that's all you're focused on is work, work, work, work, work, and you get no opportunities for some playtime or relaxation or anything like that, it just becomes rough, so.

Tony Benjamin (32:26.89)
Okay, fair, fair. Yeah, but hyper accountability.

Right, right, right.

Tony Benjamin (32:45.282)
You know what? Here's actually a good example of ruthlessness, right? The NFL. So if you're an NFL coach and you, you know, your first three years, you're building up, you're doing really well. You go to the Superbowl is saying your fourth year as a coach or something like that. And you win a Superbowl and the next year, obviously you don't make it to the Superbowl because that's really, really tough. And let's say the year after that, you're out of the playoffs. Most NFL teams will fire you. Most NFL teams will cut loot. They'll cut bait right then.

And the reason they do is like, well, you're not achieving what we want anymore. My answer is this. OK, it's impossible. The NFL is designed to make it so that you cannot continually be the best. It's very hard to be the best over and over and over and only like something like. Yes.

Steve-o (33:28.339)
And a lot of sports, it's that way to go back to back that that is not very common. You know.

Tony Benjamin (33:34.221)
Right, right. And not only that, but even having a winning record continually. Like Mike Tomlin, the coach of the Steelers, he was there for 19 years, never had a losing season. OK. And the only reason that he was there 19 seasons, because a bunch of those were kind of mediocre years, but was because he had a leadership, an ownership group that supported him. Right. And it allowed him to be him. So obviously, you don't want to.

devolve into mediocrity. the point is, it's not what have you done for me lately. It's what is your overall track record and what is the profitability look like? Okay, so let's talk about this. What are the moral obligations to people within a business framework? What is the company and the cultural moral obligation there?

Steve-o (34:28.193)
You know, I feel like this question kind of cuts to the heart of what organizations owe the people, but also what the people owe to them, especially because the organization is giving them this career or this opportunity. And so the consensus is it should be both ethical and practical, which is probably what a lot of people, I don't know, the ethics piece is a big one to me.

Tony Benjamin (34:41.132)
Yes.

Steve-o (34:57.727)
Because so for example, on the business side, I need to provide a safe workplace. I need to compensate my workers fairly. I need to treat people with dignity, equality, respect their privacy, things of that nature. Right. Those aren't just like nice to haves. To me, those are part of the obligation of an organization of providing kind of this ethical floor, if you will, expectation of that employment relationship. And

You know, beyond that, people also really, and again, this goes back to the core values. I'm just going to go there. I'm going go to the core values and the mission statement of the organization. If your people don't understand why you put the business together in the first place and why you built it the way you did, it's going to be really hard for them to want to jump on board and work for you and help sustain what you've built over those years. know, and that's part of the employees responsibility.

Tony Benjamin (35:35.906)
Right, right, right.

Steve-o (35:56.443)
is to take those responsibilities and duties and qualifications and things that are expected of them and actually help the business grow. And so they should absolutely be on board with that. And let's be honest, sometimes that doesn't look so good. Sometimes the industry is just suffering. And that's sometimes what will lead to toxic work environments because people get desperate and it gets a little hard for some folks. And so they start doing some dishonest things. And so

Abiding by moral principles and doing the right thing being honest truthful transparent. I think that's on both sides it's not it's it's it behooves the employer to act in such a way and employees who are looking for that anyway because oftentimes, you know I talk about this statistic a lot 82 to 83 percent depending on the survey you look at but 82 to 83 percent of people that are looking for work are looking for work because they're trying to escape a boss or manager or somebody

where there is some type of toxicity happening. There are butting heads in some way, they're trying to get out of that. And so because of that, they see that, right? They're trying to leave that type of environment and come to a new environment. So then you have to ask yourself, well, what kind of environment am I actually providing you? Am I gonna help you escape those things? And that's where...

It's kind of a conundrum with HR professionals, especially recruiters, because I'm a recruiter and I got to hire you. And then I realized, man, am I bringing you into another toxic environment that you're already trying to escape? Or am I actually placing you in an environment where there's a different type of structure and organizational balance that is actually going to help you be successful and be better than you already are? That's it. It's a tricky one. So.

Tony Benjamin (37:41.997)
No, that's it. It really is. It really is. And so look, they're OK. And I when I first when I first entered the workforce and I can't think that my boss said this to me directly. But what I got out of it was, you know, was that he wanted to get you at the cheapest price possible. Right. For his business, you have the highest margin.

Steve-o (38:06.517)
Yeah.

Which makes sense to a point, but that's borderline ruthless, right? So.

Tony Benjamin (38:13.142)
Right. Well, but your job as the employee was to push back and to get as much as you possibly could out of him. Right. And there's this tug of war and you end up in the middle and there's that there's that philosophy. My problem with that is that different people at different moments have different leverage points. Right. I think it bugs everybody when when Trump gets on there and he's like, you know, you're not holding the cards. I got all the cards. Right. That's that there's.

Steve-o (38:41.183)
He does have a level of toxicity and cockiness that exists. Let's be honest.

Tony Benjamin (38:43.31)
Well, well, look, look, if if, you know, if if you're two countries, and you're pointing a bunch of weapons at each other, and you're like, my weapons are bigger than yours. Well, you know, because you're talking about millions of people's lives, of course, you're gonna you're gonna cut to the chase, right? So but that's not what's going on in most businesses. And and I understand that they want to do that. To your point, do we have a moral obligation to pay people at market price?

And I would hear I'm to be a little controversial about this, but I'll say no, a business does not have a moral obligation to pay people at market price because I think it's it is not a smart choice, but it is a legitimate business perspective to say I'm to pay five percent under market. Right. I think I think that's a legitimate. think it's hard on your business, but I think it's a legitimate place to be because it's a decision. I much.

Steve-o (39:30.379)
Yeah, it is.

Tony Benjamin (39:39.758)
I'm much more accepting of that philosophy than I am. I'm going to, I'm going to get, I'm going to pay these guys as little as possible because I don't want to pay them more. That is a different ethical problem, right?

Steve-o (39:52.865)
Well, think about it. Yeah, the legal minimum and the moral minimum are not the same thing. Right. Like, like, think about it like an ethical company will, you know, we've talked about layoffs and restructuring and things like that that have happened in the workplace and it's happening all over right now. I've had a lot of friends go through this. An ethical company will give workers advance notice. They'll give them a severance package that matches what they might need to be able to get back on their feet based on what they were being compensated to begin with.

Tony Benjamin (39:58.785)
Yes. Yes.

Steve-o (40:22.067)
Assistance with their employment search, know without being forced to by the law and and that to me I mean that hits really home for me right now, but I think it's really important. I mean that to me is a definition of an ethical company that actually looks at that and You know the advance notice the severance package that is equal to like just those types of things are a moral To me a moral minimum not a legal minimum

And there's a lot of organizations that simply look at the legal minimum. And that's it. That's all they want to focus on.

Tony Benjamin (40:56.862)
Exactly, they're so worried about compliance that they won't do more. Now, look, I'll tell you right now that most employers, and I say most, most employers, maybe I'd say at least half employers, maybe that's the right way to say it. I'd tell you this, if it wasn't for the FMLA,

Steve-o (41:00.513)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (41:16.588)
the family medical leave act. If it wasn't for FMLA, I believe that more companies would be willing to give you more time off if you or someone in your family had cancer or you have some big thing going on. They would be much more likely to give you a lot more time off and a lot less likely to fire you if you can't make it back quickly. Right. But because FMLA is so generous and really pushes the mark on that, they feel like

to do it, they have to hold a line, and therefore I'm only gonna give you the amount of time off that you absolutely are required to have under FMLA by law, right? And it also protects us from people trying to manipulate the system and all that sort of stuff, but.

Steve-o (41:54.945)
Incorrect, by law. Yep.

Steve-o (42:01.537)
Yeah, I was going to say the other argument there is the protection piece. mean, you know, the Pregnancy Workers Fairness Act has gone into effect recently as well. There are some very good reasons why those things have gone into effect because there has been abuse. And it's just sad that there are some organizations that prefer to abuse that to a point that a law has to fix it in essence, right? And then, OK, well, now here's the minimum. And so this is what we're.

we have to do now. I just think if an organization is going to approach those types of acts in that way, again, where's the morality there? The moral fairness, right?

Tony Benjamin (42:42.924)
Right, right. No, but I mean, they're into your point. There are reasons for those laws and had people been fair, we wouldn't. Right, right. We wouldn't need all that on the flip side, though. That's why companies are not more generous with with some of those things. And we're going to go into a little bit more of that. So I'm going to I'm going to take us under that. Let me ask you this. And we'll have this. What is the role of managers in a toxic work environment? What is the role of a manager in a toxic work environment?

Steve-o (42:47.883)
There are, there are. could argue both sides easily. Very easily, yeah.

Steve-o (42:57.505)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (43:08.81)
God.

To me, they occupy the most influential role in an organization period, but it's also one of the most complicated roles in an organization, right? Because that type of position, you're...

Tony Benjamin (43:21.9)
Yes. Yes.

Steve-o (43:28.373)
Sometimes you are simultaneously the source of the toxicity, but also the one that has the power to fix it. Does that make sense? Like that to me, like, and I know that seems like an oxymoron the way I probably described that, but, but, but again, you have so many employees that are looking for work right now where they tie the toxicity. They originated with their immediate supervisor or manager.

Tony Benjamin (43:36.654)
Absolutely.

Steve-o (43:59.017)
That to them, that's where it's actually coming from. And they attribute that to poor leadership, poor management. you know, it's interesting, Gallup did a statistic or a poll on this. And again, this was close to 80%. And a lot of it just had to do with accountability. There was no accountability for the leaders actions. And so they would just start getting away with stuff. I mean, look at the Scherm case and that leadership that was happening there.

Tony Benjamin (44:02.411)
Yes. Yes.

Steve-o (44:29.237)
I mean, just a prime example, favoritism, bias treatment, you know, yeah. And so, it's the old adage of when you get away with it once, you continue to think you can get away with it again. It's just like stealing, right? I steal, I get away with it, I'm gonna keep stealing and it becomes a habit. I lie, I'm gonna keep lying.

Tony Benjamin (44:29.739)
It was a magnifying glass for making everything worse. Yes. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (44:49.127)
I'm I'm shocked, Steve. I'm shocked. I have such a rosy I have a rosy opinion of people they all want to do right. No one wants to mess with me. No one wants to take advantage. Right. No one ever faked cancer at a company I worked for so they could have more time off. That never happened ever.

Steve-o (44:59.231)
No, no one would ever want to do that, right?

Steve-o (45:07.617)
ever. But see, here's the point, right? Are we allowing, if there is toxicity, and this is where HR I think can really...

It's hard for HR. Let me just say that it is hard for HR because oftentimes HR is the one that finally reveals the toxicity or they surface it. And now they have to deal with it and dealing with it and surfacing it are two very different things, especially when sometimes the source of that toxicity is coming from upper leadership or managers that are creating a

know, wreaking havoc within a particular department. And so how does, you know, I would push this, you know, what is the role of managers in a toxic environment? Well, what is the role of HR in a toxic environment as well? And are there ways in which we can kind of take this culture killer, if you will, and protect our high performers, protect our employees who are struggling because

Tony Benjamin (45:51.745)
Yes.

Steve-o (46:15.903)
You know, sometimes you don't have to be a high performer to have high impact on the organization. Does that make sense? And that's where HR can really shine when you understand and know how those individuals actually have an impact on the company and where it can make a difference, right? But if you're start, in fact, we had the student case competition, I think two weeks ago now.

Tony Benjamin (46:41.525)
Right. And I'm seeing all the pictures for that online and I really regret missing it now. I got to go next year.

Steve-o (46:45.257)
Okay, so let me tell you, one of the parts of the case was a toxic work environment. You had a very high performer, actually two high performers who were making jokes and doing things inappropriate within the organization that was leading to some toxicity within the environment. And I had to laugh because there was one group that I met with and it seemed like their solution was just to fire them all. It's just fire them all.

And, you know, obviously there are steps you have to go through that. But, you know, sometimes we judge people in these single moments in time without really digging deeper and getting to the core of what's actually happening. Again, I go back to the fact that if we judged everybody based on one single incident, everybody is going to fail us. Everybody is going to fail us at some point. And so we have to look at more of the pattern because patterns can be changed.

Tony Benjamin (47:14.349)
All right.

Tony Benjamin (47:35.585)
Right, right.

Steve-o (47:44.098)
patterns can be modified, corrected. But if we just look at the, it's like what Andrew said, if you just define that person by that one toxic trait, as opposed to saying, well, what is this toxic trait actually coming from? Why is there a pattern here? Everybody loses. I don't know how else to describe that. It's just, it's hard. I'm not saying this is easy by any means.

So HR, know, we're in a conundrum here. We're like in a, between a rock and a hard place in that sense.

Tony Benjamin (48:18.975)
No, I think that actually, let's transition this a little bit. So how do you get rid of a toxic work environment? Because I think what you're talking about is exactly right. And here's what I recently used this analogy with somebody, and I think it's apropos. So we all have got that block of cheese that's been in our fridge for a while, and it gets mold on it. Grows mold. It grows mold.

Steve-o (48:38.209)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (48:43.861)
What? That never happens.

Tony Benjamin (48:48.27)
And a lot of people.

Steve-o (48:49.099)
You know what sucks about that for me? I'm so sorry. I can't smell anymore because of COVID. And so like when there's like rotten milk in the fridge, I have taken milk and just drunk it or you'll pour it in glass and it's a little chunky and I can't smell it. I don't know that it's bad. I start, it's so horrible. It's so horrible. And I hate it because I always ask my wife to smell it for me just in case she hates me for it.

Tony Benjamin (48:52.556)
What?

Tony Benjamin (48:56.021)
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (49:01.645)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can't tell. That's awesome. That's really good. I love that story. You and I

Hahaha!

Steve-o (49:16.725)
She's like, why do you want to make me gag every time you want? Anyway, moldy cheese, let's go.

Tony Benjamin (49:21.673)
No. Yeah. Yeah. Well, see, but here's the difference. If you've got chili, for example, that's been sitting in your fridge and it's moldy, it probably stinks. Right. But cheese is a little bit different. Cheese grows. That's right. That's right. The mold, the mold process is part of the aging process, how they get it to the flavor as. So anyways, you you've got mold on cheese. Right. And it doesn't mean that it's all the way rotten. So what you do with that mold on cheese is you start cutting it off.

Steve-o (49:30.614)
Mm-hmm.

Because it's made of mold.

Steve-o (49:39.937)
Exactly.

Tony Benjamin (49:51.554)
Right? You cut it off and you cut it back to a point where you've cut far enough in that the mold is gone and the spores that have left behind into the cheese itself are also gone and cut off. And I think it's a great apropos thing. Okay. Now here's the catch to everybody in a toxic environment develops toxic traits to protect themselves against the toxicity.

Steve-o (49:52.395)
Yeah, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (50:19.713)
This is just how it works, right? So if you have somebody who otherwise would be a happy-go-lucky employee and they produce really well for you and all that, and they're in a toxic work environment, over time, they will develop toxic traits to protect themselves against the toxicity, right? And it's, right, right. And I would say, so this is the idea where the mold is spreading throughout the cheese.

Steve-o (50:37.087)
Yeah, which is so sad. I've seen that. I have seen that. Yeah.

Steve-o (50:45.621)
And it's almost like they go against their own moral code. I know some really good people that have completely decided with the toxicity because they're scared or they can't, and again, that's part of toxicity is the scare and the fear factor. That is so sad to me. That's so sad to me.

Tony Benjamin (50:48.737)
That's right.

Tony Benjamin (50:59.34)
Yes.

Tony Benjamin (51:08.599)
Well, and these, and you'll know who these people are because these are the people, and look, I've been in this place. I'll admit to this. These are the people who are formed, right, these are the people who are forming coalitions with others to protect each other from something that's going on. The truly toxic people will join those coalitions, right? The really toxic people will join the coalition and then later they will betray it.

Steve-o (51:14.537)
Mm-hmm. I think we all have at some point, right? Yeah.

Steve-o (51:23.808)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (51:27.253)
The water cooler moments.

Tony Benjamin (51:37.707)
right, to switch sides to manipulate the coalitions against each other. And this is quite normal.

Steve-o (51:42.261)
You know what the greatest example of that is? The show Survivor.

Tony Benjamin (51:47.455)
Yes, yes, right? Yes. Or what would that?

Steve-o (51:49.601)
or even like Big Brother or like think about it. have our all of those like traders like that. I love the traders, but but that's exactly it. It amazes me that our social media today and the television shows that we love to watch because they you know, they satiate an appetite that we have. They are ruthless.

Tony Benjamin (51:52.66)
All of those. Yes.

Tony Benjamin (52:10.765)
They get ruthless.

Steve-o (52:13.589)
They are literally promoting these types of toxicity that we're seeing in our work environments today, period.

Tony Benjamin (52:13.825)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (52:20.381)
Why is it? Why is it that the show, the Great Brit, the Great British Baking show? Why is it that that show is so popular in the US? Because none of those people are trying to sabotage anyone else to get ahead. They cheer each other on. They're happy. They give each other hugs. Yeah, yeah. And when someone goes home, they all cry on their behalf, right, which is a little touchy feely for me, but.

Steve-o (52:34.187)
Yeah, they're actually working with it. Yeah.

Steve-o (52:42.483)
I love the Harry Potter one. I don't know what it's exactly called, but there's a Harry Potter one where all the things that they make are actually at the Harry Potter studios, which my wife and I went last year and got to visit that in London. It was so cool. It was so cool to be there. And, and, and so we watched that show all the time. I forget what it's called, but it's, basically a Harry Potter themed baking show. And you're absolutely right. They actually, they're, they're disappointed. They're sad when people go home because let me tell you, they all do great.

Tony Benjamin (52:53.058)
Steve-o (53:12.245)
work and it's hard. hard.

Tony Benjamin (53:13.355)
Right, right. But here in the US, but to your point here in the US, our reality TV shows are like, if I do this, I can I can get ahead that way or I can do this.

Steve-o (53:19.999)
All of them are. Even the bachelor and the bachelorette. my gosh. It is such a toxic type of, I don't know, to me, starting off a relationship in that way just seems so toxic to me. And you wonder why the show has not produced a lot of marriages that have lasted. Just saying.

Tony Benjamin (53:25.409)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (53:41.281)
Well, look, everybody watches that show to see who will be more catty to the other person and and who will sleep with who.

Steve-o (53:46.911)
I know, but it's like, why do we, yeah, why do we support this kind of television? Right? Because if we're supporting that kind of television, we're absolutely supporting toxicity in other environments besides work. I don't know, it's, yeah. I guess so, I guess so.

Tony Benjamin (54:01.293)
It's a train wreck. We like to see a train wreck. That's all it is. So at work, if you want to get rid of this, you have to cut that part out. the hard part is, is again, a lot of people in the environment will develop toxic behaviors to defend themselves. So what you're looking for in those instances is you're looking for the root cause of the toxicity and you want to remove it from there.

Usually, usually, as I've done this, that comes with somebody who is doing things that are complaint worthy. Right? It's a hostile work environment. They're, they're discriminating against people. They're treating people unfairly. They're breaking the rules, those sorts of things. And that, that form of toxicity you can find all over. So you eliminate those individuals as much as you possibly can without getting into compliance issues. Right?

And you just deal with those head on and there's retaliation problems and all that with that sort of stuff. But I want to, you get rid of those people. Then the next thing you need to do is you need to be completely 100 % transparent with all of your employees. You have to get with them and you have to say, I'm going to create a transparent environment where you as an employee can see all the way to the top and all the way to the bottom. And you know everything that's going on. And then.

Steve-o (55:23.531)
Yep.

Tony Benjamin (55:27.573)
You must be consistent with that information and how you treat people over time. It's vitally important that transparency and consistency win out because just because you're trying to be nice to everybody and eliminate a toxic work environment doesn't suddenly mean that you can triple everyone's pay and give everyone as much PTO as they want. Right? That sort of thing. You just can't do that.

Steve-o (55:49.045)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (55:52.034)
So what you do, and it doesn't mean you can increase your cost by say feeding everybody every day, or I don't know, all those perks that would be nice. But what you want to do is you have to be transparent and you have to be consistent and hold people accountable for what they do. And what you will find is over time, those people who are not too much infected with that toxicity will slowly relax and they will pull back from their toxicity. The ones who are left who keep doing it

then you manage them out. And that's what you're going to have to do. And where the rubber meets the road, anybody who knows me, I say this all the time, the org chart is king. Or I'm sorry, culture is king, the org chart is queen. Meaning the org chart is how you do this. You go in, you tell managers all information is relayed through the routes on the org chart.

If a frontline employee is getting information from somebody that they do not directly report to, and it's vital that they do, they're reporting to the wrong person. And the org chart is queen. by doing that, that's how you get the consistency thing going, right? You develop this consistency, and it moves across. And that's how you slowly get rid of it.

Steve-o (56:57.653)
Yeah. Yep.

Steve-o (57:11.009)
Well, we have to, yeah. Yeah, and you have to remember most of your managers, I do believe, want to do a good job. They're probably proud of the fact that they have moved into a management role, but they still need development. They need training. They need ongoing coaching, right? Even if for just basic management skills.

Tony Benjamin (57:28.844)
Yes.

Steve-o (57:35.297)
because sometimes they don't always understand the full responsibility they have taken on to become a people manager. And so it becomes the responsibility, I believe, of HR to help facilitate the types of trainings, because the training gap is real, right? I think it was a Gallup poll that I was working on when I did my research with all those managers for my ghosting presentation way back in the day.

44%, I think it was like 44, 45%, it was in the mid 40s somewhere. The managers admitted that they had never received any type of formal training. They had just simply been handed the people and because you kind of know the roles or what have you, you now manage them.

Tony Benjamin (58:24.671)
You're the most skillful person to produce this type of work. So therefore we're going to make you the leader. Yep.

Steve-o (58:27.711)
Yeah. Yeah, and that is not always the right reason to make them a leader. And if it is the right reason to make them a leader, you still owe it to them to train and to provide those types of skills that are needed so that the manager can do a good job. Because ultimately, it should not be the manager that is creating the toxic work environment. It should be the manager that recognizes the toxicity within their own team to help you remove it. Like you've said.

Tony Benjamin (58:39.243)
Yes.

Steve-o (58:56.329)
Like I said in my book, I call it the gopher of the apple tree, right? The gopher, all the gopher wants to do is is gnaw at the roots of the tree to the point that the tree now has nothing stably holding it up so that when the whirlwinds and the winds or rains or storms come, the tree is going to topple over and you've lost an entire fruit from that as well. so so anyway, so so those getting rid of those gophers is extremely important. But how you go about that is also important.

I always talk to farmer piney says, you know, you can flood gophers out, but the problem is, is if you flood it too much, you, give too much water into the roots. You're going to destroy the roots anyway. That's a, that's an important thing to think about. Right. And so the way we go about it is also really important and we have to understand our company structure. I'm going to go back to Tracy Calmar on this one, the way she, she took culture and help people not only recognize the culture traits and the

Tony Benjamin (59:35.691)
Yep, you drown the roots. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve-o (59:54.165)
the attributes and the core values, but how to recognize those core values in your coworkers and how to point them out and actually see what they look like. Because those are the opposite of toxic traits. And when people see the good, they're more likely to want to do the good. So anyway, just my thoughts on it.

Tony Benjamin (01:00:09.442)
Yep.

Tony Benjamin (01:00:15.787)
No, you're exactly, yeah, yeah, no, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. I think, and here's what we talked about this earlier, but I'll reiterate it here. How you eliminate this or whatever is you change frontline manager behavior. Now the C-suite is not left out of that. The C-suite also has to change, right? Executive leadership, right?

Steve-o (01:00:35.19)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (01:00:39.886)
it's a big part of it. They have to support the whole thing.

Tony Benjamin (01:00:43.533)
It right and they have to lead out in this. With that said, you as HR still own the culture and where you're going to make the change is not the biggest change will not come from executive leadership. The biggest change in your culture will come from frontline managers because they are the people interacting with all your employees every single day. They make it happen, right, right? Sargeants and I always come back to this this analogy, right?

Steve-o (01:01:02.817)
There are the front lines. Yeah, it's just like in war, I to say it that way, but yeah. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:01:12.961)
The Russian military, the Russian army does not have sergeants. I don't know if people know this. So a sergeant in a military is a professional fighter who leads. And he is trained just like an officer in strategic maneuvers and all those sorts of things. But he is the guy on the ground directly leading the people. One of the reasons that the US and by the way, he's allowed to make choices and decisions.

Steve-o (01:01:40.288)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (01:01:40.558)
Right? Matter of fact, he's encouraged to. Matter of fact, he tells the lieutenant who's over him generally what should be done. But he is the professional and he does it. And the reason that our military kicks butt around the world is because we have sergeants. Eastern militaries do not. And the reason is because they don't trust front line soldiers to make decisions.

Steve-o (01:02:08.438)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:02:10.313)
And so it's just one of the reasons why we're better. So anyways, there you go. That's that shoe.

Steve-o (01:02:10.913)
Thank

Steve-o (01:02:15.233)
I want to throw one more thing out here before we, because I know we're probably going to do our HR in life topic, but one of the things that I think is so critical is self-confidence. And the reason I bring this up is because there's been times in my life where I weighed a lot, right? I'm just going to use a personal example here. I weighed a lot. And when I...

weighed a lot, I was less confident in myself. I was less confident in my abilities because I could not maneuver like I wanted to. I was speaking at conferences during some of those times and I was in front of people at events and I felt embarrassed and I felt tired and I like all these things that also, you know, ruin some of my self confidence, right? And so.

You don't always know what the manager is going through that is leading to this crisis of confidence, which is why I think the training is so important for me. Some of those physical things were part of that, right? So I started working out. I started eating better. I started doing the things that I needed to and got to a better state of mind. And it just helped my confidence level. Some of your managers might, you know, when you think about the programs that you offer in your organization, sometimes it's those wellness programs that are helping facilitate.

better confidence in some of your employees and managers, whether you realize it or not. They need to be more confident in what they do and your employees need to have more confidence in their leaders. I think confidence is probably one of the biggest factors that sometimes we don't really think about because when you're not confident, you don't even trust yourself. How in the world are others going to trust you? And you've got to have trust in these situations, period.

Tony Benjamin (01:03:59.948)
Right, and not only that, right, but...

Not only is it that, but the erosion, it makes you unable to make decisions if you don't have confidence in yourself, right? And that, but that requires, right, Well, and then you go into defense mode and then you become toxic to yourself because you're defending yourself, right? And no, that's exactly it.

Steve-o (01:04:16.747)
Correct. Cause you're afraid.

Correct.

Mm-hmm.

And you have to be careful because sometimes confidence is what leads to ego to, you know, egotistical behavior and and conceitedness and all of those types of things. So so you have to find that balance. And I don't know, I I've met confident people before that are they just they know what they want. They know what they want to do. And how many of us are attracted to those types of people? And I'm not just saying physically attracted or in a sexual way, but just attracted to good leaders.

Tony Benjamin (01:04:32.875)
Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:04:55.639)
That's good. was hoping you weren't saying that. Right, right, right.

Steve-o (01:04:56.929)
Glad I clarified that right but but think about that how attractive is it to want to follow a leader who is confident in their ability to get the things done that need to get done and they want you to they want to bring you with them that that's an exciting thing for for people who are looking for the leader that that really has that confidence level so

Tony Benjamin (01:05:15.117)
you

Steve-o (01:05:19.929)
And again, you can see the confidence in like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, that there was a level of confidence there which has made them very competent in what they do and has made them very successful. So now we just have to look at and say, OK, how do we exercise and use that confidence without becoming pompous and, you know, like some leaders of today? Because there is an element of pomposity.

Tony Benjamin (01:05:42.877)
agreed. Yes. No, no, I

Steve-o (01:05:48.737)
In some leadership of today, just throwing it out there. Nobody knows who I'm talking about, but that's okay. It was meant to be a general statement.

Tony Benjamin (01:05:51.136)
I don't know who you're talking about. I don't know. No, By the way, if anyone wants to see something really funny, there's a group that does, they kind of do muppets of world leaders. And it's hilarious. It's called puppet regime. So puppet regime. If any of you want to look up puppet regime online, it's hilarious. And I don't care which side of the political aisle you're on.

Steve-o (01:06:08.134)
my gosh.

Tony Benjamin (01:06:19.883)
You'll laugh because it pokes fun of everybody. It's so funny. Yeah, it's so funny. Just makes me laugh. OK, so now here we go into our favorite music and segment.

Steve-o (01:06:21.665)
Those are the best kinds, it just pokes fun at everybody.

Steve-o (01:06:32.448)
Okay.

Don't do.

Tony Benjamin (01:06:50.677)
All right, all right. There you go. Of course, second half is Yellowstone. know, Steve. You told us. That's... Anyway. Yeah.

Steve-o (01:06:58.881)
I totally wasn't gonna say it again. I assume everybody knows now. So I only need to say things once, Tony.

Tony Benjamin (01:07:07.88)
So, OK, this this time HR in life, the segment is this. So I was recently listening to a podcast about it's called The Terrible Podcast. It's about about the Pittsburgh Steelers. Yes. It's named after the terrible tale and all that stuff. But it was called The Terrible Podcast. The guys do a really good job. I've been there in like season 15. I've been listening since season two. It's a it's a wonderful podcast. But they had someone

Steve-o (01:07:20.075)
terrible.

Tony Benjamin (01:07:34.58)
email in. And this is this is what they said. They said they were criticizing the ownership of the Steelers and not doing a good job. And the word that they use going along with what we're talking about today is they said they've been doing they've been making some moves. They're unethical. And that was the phrase they used some really unethical things they've been doing. And it reminded me and I think this word unethical

But in matter of fact, Steve, do you want to break out your stat here that we talked about earlier with ethics? This is important.

Steve-o (01:08:09.065)
Yeah, let me pull this up. This is You know when we talk about ethics in the workplace, hold on to me. I totally did not have it pulled up for this No ethnics ethnicity Did I say ethnics my bad It's that theta thing, you know, sometimes it just gets to me. So Yeah, so ethics in the workplace. you know gallops done a lot of research on this and what they found is that

Tony Benjamin (01:08:15.923)
ethics, not FNICS, right? Ethics.

Tony Benjamin (01:08:24.489)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's okay. It's okay. Yeah. Yeah, I gotcha.

Steve-o (01:08:39.809)
Unethical behavior. OK, so this was this was very interesting study. So what they were trying to prove is that ethics in the workplace are actually measurable, like they're trying to show that this is a measurable thing. Right. And what it showed is that nearly one in in four employees, so it's about 23 percent, say that they have personally seen or have firsthand knowledge of their colleagues or manager demonstrating unethical behavior in the past year.

And this was in 2025, mind you. So this is very recent. This is not, this is not something from like years and years ago. Very recent one in four employees have noticed unethical behavior among their colleagues or managers, you know, being demonstrated right there in front of them. And what the impact is, is employees, when they have firsthand awareness of this unethical behavior in the organizations, they are 2.7 times as likely to be actively disengaged and

Tony Benjamin (01:09:12.097)
Right.

Steve-o (01:09:38.113)
They're 2.3 times as likely to be burned out as their peers because they get burned out for their peers. So burnout here, it kind of spreads like wildfire. Even if it's not happening to you, you're seeing it happen to some of your own colleagues from the management or from wherever. And, you know, think about it. In the workplace, we develop relationships. There is no question about

Tony Benjamin (01:09:46.231)
Yep.

Steve-o (01:10:05.473)
And when you see things happening among your own employee, you know, your own coworkers and people that you have befriended and have a tremendous amount of respect for, it's no wonder you get disengaged and burned out along with your peers. so they absolutely, absolutely. But one in four, can you believe that one in four? Yeah, one in four are seeing unethical behavior in their current work environment. That's

Tony Benjamin (01:10:05.516)
Right, right.

Tony Benjamin (01:10:19.895)
Right, because you're upset for them. You're carrying an emotional weight for them, right? If Andrea were here, that's empathy fatigue.

Steve-o (01:10:35.093)
That's crazy to me. Crazy.

Tony Benjamin (01:10:37.845)
Now, OK, now that flies in into this exactly what I'm going to get to. Right. So the guys are reading this guy's letter on the podcast and he's talking about what the Steelers and all that have done wrong. And all he's talking about in the whole email is that they've done something incorrectly. They've made bad decisions. Right. But he's using this word unethical. And I wanted to relate this story. So I worked at a company once and our leaders were very, very dynamic people that everyone loved.

Steve-o (01:10:42.815)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (01:11:07.021)
the owners of the company, everyone loved in that company. They really liked them and looked up to them. And so I got the managers in a training meeting once, there's like eight or nine of them in there at this certain level. I said, and I said to all of them, said, let's say that Bob over here, he goes out and he wastes a whole bunch of money buying some supply for the company that you know, he could have bought somewhere else at half the price.

Was that was that immoral? That was the question I asked. Was that immoral? And almost everybody in the company, all the other managers at this level went around the table like, yes, that's immoral. It's a waste of money. Ba ba ba. You're hurting so and so our owners, blah, blah, blah, and all that sort of stuff. It's immoral. And I says, OK, I want to make sure that we're defining this correctly. It's immoral. It's a sin. It's something bad. And they're all like, yes, yes.

I said, OK, so is this something that the Bob here has to go talk to Jesus about? There is like, no, no, it's it's not like that. It's not like that. And yeah, well, you know, well, you know, well, look, I think I think if Jesus were in the office, he'd be pretty cool manager myself. But that's just me. Right, right. Right. But anyway, so this is and then everybody backed off. no, no, no, no. And I said, OK, well, wait a minute. You said it was immoral.

Steve-o (01:12:15.137)
Wow, you had to bring Jesus in, huh, for Easter.

I'm just kidding.

Steve-o (01:12:24.605)
He would be right. I would assume so.

Steve-o (01:12:33.727)
You says moral. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:12:35.053)
Right. It's a morality question. And what I was trying to get them to divide up or to separate was the difference between ethics or morals and morals versus good business decisions and business decisions. And the discussion was so powerful that we never had to repeat this in the company. It spread like wildfire through the rest of the company. And pretty soon everybody was on board.

And that was they started to separate business decision from ethics. Okay. And I think this is what that emailer was getting wrong. Right. So I can make a business decision and you may think I've made a very poor business decision. Okay. But that is different from morality or different from ethics. It just means I made a bad choice. It doesn't mean I need to go talk to Jesus about getting forgiven for spending too much money.

Steve-o (01:13:11.147)
Yeah, that's important. Yeah.

Steve-o (01:13:24.417)
Correct. Correct.

Tony Benjamin (01:13:34.636)
That's a different thing. And I think a lot of times people confuse the two things. Yeah, yeah. People confuse the two things. And what you need to, and this is in any leadership role or whatever, we need to get to a point where we separate those two things in people's heads and we help them understand the difference between the two. so because when you see immoral behavior, oftentimes we all get outraged.

Steve-o (01:13:37.589)
That's a good analogy. Yeah, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:14:04.365)
Okay, we all get outrage. But if it's just a bad decision, we can all live with the bad decision. We may complain that Bob is spending too much money and therefore hurting the company and therefore I can't hire people or we can't be effective or whatever else, or we don't get our bonuses. But that's a very different thing than saying, Bob hosed all of us morally, or he cheated us or whatever, right? There's a difference in that.

Steve-o (01:14:20.523)
Yeah.

Steve-o (01:14:29.355)
Yeah, there's a fine line there for sure.

Tony Benjamin (01:14:31.199)
Right, right. And I think it's important for everybody to understand that difference. Then as you're rooting out toxic, so your it makes me wonder, right, in that study. And I bet you they have Gallup is good. They have some sort of control for those sorts of things. But when I hear that sort of stuff, then I start thinking to myself, is it is it that people are? Exactly. Right, right. And and and it's it's just one of those deals where I think.

Steve-o (01:14:43.841)
They do, yeah.

Steve-o (01:14:50.163)
Are those one in four confusing, the data? Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:14:59.713)
that we all need to be careful about how we say stuff. Like it's popular to ever, you know, to accuse politicians of being corrupt. Well, what does the word corrupt mean? The corrupt means I'm making money off from my office. I'm doing something in office that gives me money or corrupts the system for my interest only. And that's not like politics or anything like that's me, my interest.

Steve-o (01:15:23.039)
And some people just say that, you're corrupt because you don't believe what I believe and you don't do what I want you to do. And that's how they treat corruptness. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:15:28.973)
Exactly. Right, right, right. And look, where I live in the Uinta Basin, any time the county commissioners make a decision that anybody doesn't like or anything like that, they start talking, you're corrupt, you're corrupt. I'm like, stop, stop saying that word because I don't think that word means what you think it means. Right. So and it's the same. Same here. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Steve-o (01:15:47.115)
Yeah, yeah. No, that's a great point. People are confusing those. Yeah, especially in the workplace. Especially, I mean, even in politics. I mean, how many times have we had conversations with people where we do the same thing? Where we think, that's so immoral of you. How dare you? How could you? And you don't even understand the full story. I mean, this is where gossip comes from. This is where misunderstandings and miscommunications come from. It amazes me.

You know, one of the things in this Gallup poll too that I did not mention that I thought was also fascinating is they said that unethical norms will compound. And what they meant by that is as soon as an employee does something that actually is immoral and it's not really addressed by their managers after cutting corners or doing whatever, it basically signals to everyone else that, well,

I can cut corners too, there's no consequence here. So why should I even be moral? And it promotes this perception that unethical behavior goes unpunished. And so therefore it's okay to allow that to kind of permeate the organization and it almost becomes institutionalized and part of the culture. That is a line that you don't want to cross, right? You don't want to be on that side.

Tony Benjamin (01:16:43.457)
Yep.

Tony Benjamin (01:17:05.857)
Which is why even though the executives have less of an impact on culture per se than frontline managers do, it is why they are vitally, vitally important in this to do it exactly right because they set a tone for the culture, right? They set a tone for that. That's exactly right.

Steve-o (01:17:18.462)
Absolutely.

Steve-o (01:17:23.253)
Yeah. Well, there's a reason why in my analogy of the hiring tree that the executive team is part of the roots of the system. They're not at the top of the tree. They're literally underneath in the bottom that provides all the nutrients to the entire tree. That's why that analogy is so important, because you're absolutely right. They are the ones that help control the entire process. Right. And the entire ethical standards that exist there, because it's just like Gallup said, when you don't

When you have a pattern of unchecked behavior, it's not a single moment that destroys the culture and creates the toxicity. It's the pattern. And that's what you're trying to get. As HR professionals, need, and business leaders for that matter, we need to recognize what are those patterns and then let's nip them in the bud. Pun intended with the tree.

Tony Benjamin (01:18:12.925)
Exactly. That's that's perfect. All right, everybody. There you go. That's HR in life. come on. Wait,

Steve-o (01:18:23.787)
Man, that was so anticlimactic.

Tony Benjamin (01:18:26.226)
Well, my button didn't work. Uh-oh.

Steve-o (01:18:28.705)
That's because you already played it once.

Tony Benjamin (01:18:31.925)
No, no, I was I wasn't going to do the sounder. I was going to do the the clapping. Wow. Not not cheering, just clapping. Well, we'll we'll see. there we go. There's cheering. Cheering worked. I don't know. There you go, everybody. See, we were that good. It could be, hey, just so you know, I did go out and get crickets just so you know, I did find crickets. I don't have them installed yet, but we will have crickets.

Steve-o (01:18:37.195)
the cheering and stuff, well that's sad.

Steve-o (01:18:43.157)
there you go.

Your clapping file is corrupt.

Steve-o (01:19:02.785)
fun. Did you know as a child I would catch crickets because I used to feed them to the lizards that I would catch back in the day and they were so easy to catch and it was free like you and and there was and obviously the local pet shop would pay you for crickets and so I would make like a dollar for every like 25 crickets I could catch and so I would just go out at night and you know right as as dust was coming out because all the bats would be out and

Tony Benjamin (01:19:03.979)
Yeah, right?

Tony Benjamin (01:19:24.237)
You

Steve-o (01:19:27.745)
There's bats in Las Vegas, by the way. A lot of people don't realize this. There are bats in Las Vegas that fly around to eat all the little gnats and stuff. But I would go out there and I would see the bats and I was like, OK, perfect night for crickets. And I would catch crickets all the time.

Tony Benjamin (01:19:32.183)
Right? Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:19:39.659)
You didn't get any endangered crickets or anything, did you?

Steve-o (01:19:42.561)
No, no, and luckily, you know, yeah, let's not talk about all that. All of my past sins.

Tony Benjamin (01:19:47.179)
Ha ha ha!

That's right. Just the wasps.

Steve-o (01:19:52.117)
So question, Tony, do you think that was immoral behavior of me and unethical? Or was I just being an ignorant 11 year old? There you go.

Tony Benjamin (01:20:00.782)
Ignorant 11 year old for sure. Yeah. No, and I don't there's there's a there's a lot about that about ethics in the workplace and different stuff. We could matter of fact, I'd like to at some point to do a to do a podcast just on that. think that'll be fantastic to use a phrase. Yeah.

Steve-o (01:20:17.451)
Yeah, I'm sure we could find a good speaker on that. In fact, if you know anybody to all our listeners out there, if you know somebody that would be awesome to talk about ethics in the workplace, we would love to have them on the podcast. So please, please, please let us know.

Tony Benjamin (01:20:27.885)
And by the way, this is the first. I've got it mapped out. I think we're going to have three different episodes on toxic work environments. And this is one. This is number one. So we just want to stress that out for everybody. This is going to be number one in a series. They won't be all back to back to back, but we will spread them out. I'm aware of at least three we're going to do. So hey, Steve, before we get out of here.

Steve-o (01:20:51.393)
Cool. And I was not aware of that, but I'm never aware, so that's okay.

Tony Benjamin (01:20:57.293)
because you don't read the summary emails. That's why. But really, really quick. I know it'd be shocking. Yeah, all the stats you come in with now and would be crazy. Why what you say is highly worthwhile, but there you go. At least most of the time. OK, so we're at May 14th. We will be at the Fuel HR Conference with with Central Utah Shore.

Steve-o (01:21:00.417)
I never prepare for any of this.

Can you imagine if I actually prepared Tony?

Maybe what I say would actually be worthwhile.

Steve-o (01:21:24.737)
Yes.

Tony Benjamin (01:21:27.367)
And we will be there. Come see us. We're going to have some swag there that we're going to give out. I'm working on acquiring that right now. You'll like it. It's cool. And literally, it will be cool. And Steve, when are you speaking? think. Yeah, yeah, me too.

Steve-o (01:21:39.979)
I'm excited. Yeah, so I speak next week. So on the, let's see, what's today? The sixth, so it's Tuesday the 13th, 14th, I think. I can't remember. Next Tuesday, I will be in Virginia, Washington DC area. And I'm speaking at the Washington DC Virginia Conference. And so I'm excited. We're gonna do my AI presentation and the presentation on writing job ads, but I've actually added a little bit to it now. I'm really excited.

You know, one of the cool parts about staying in touch with my previous colleague, Ryan Kohler, Ryan Kohler has dedicated his life to AI for the last three years. And he's so kind to share things with me all the time. And did you know that there's a difference between push prompting and pull prompting when you're using AI? And so I'm going to be introducing that for the first time.

at the Virginia conference, which I'm really excited to explain the differences and why it's relevant and important. And yeah, and so it's kind of cool. There's just some really good stuff coming out. And with AI, I'm going to start delving into that a lot more to not just for the hiring side of things. I'm going to delve into it in all kinds of areas within the HR realm period. And hopefully what we build out and create.

will be much more beneficial to HR professionals going forward. So I'm really excited about that because I've focused so heavily on hiring because I've been in applicant tracking system work for so long. But now that that's kind of up in the air and open, I let's just apply it to anything and everything. So there you go. So, yeah, excited about that. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:23:22.145)
Fantastic. So there you go. If that's a big deal, obviously. So if a few people out there are here about it and Virginia and that and hey, Virginia Sherman, if you want to sponsor this podcast, you're more than welcome to so

Steve-o (01:23:33.537)
Yeah. And, you know, for anybody else in any shurm conferences across the country, if you need a speaker, I've got some good stuff. I have a time. In fact, if you go to my recent LinkedIn post, you can hear all kinds of comments from my my network and just companies that I've helped over the years. And I've got some really solid presentations. mean, Tony knows I've come and delivered some of those at Basin H.R. And so there's some really good good content that is relevant that you can immediately act upon.

and take into your workplace right away. it's something I enjoy doing.

Tony Benjamin (01:24:05.473)
Now, Steve's Steve's impressive. Look, I'm a pretty good public speaker and I'll just say I know him when I see him and Steve's really good. He's really, really good. So if you have it, you know, and hey, if you want us to come and do an episode of the podcast from your conference, we're also open to that. So we just got to get the logistics work, which is what we're doing at at Fuel HR. Right. Right. And we'll be again.

Steve-o (01:24:15.073)
Thanks, Tony.

Steve-o (01:24:20.404)
Yeah.

Yeah, we absolutely are. Yeah, we are. I was going to say we're going to have that. We're going to have it down pretty soon.

Tony Benjamin (01:24:31.123)
And we're trying to work out to be at the state work elevated conference too. So those two things. And I was working on next year's Nura or Northern Utah Shurm. We're working on getting at their conference as well. anyways, there you go. So anyways, there you go. Anything else you're missing, Steve? Other than, of course, how cool you are.

Steve-o (01:24:35.477)
Mm-hmm. Yep, in September.

Steve-o (01:24:52.769)
So the only other thing that you're missing that we have coming up is at the end of this month, JAG, which stands for Jobs for America's Graduates, is going to be having their NCDC, which is basically where they have hundreds of students from across the country. Oftentimes these students are students who are not in the best of situations at home from a family perspective, and it's not abuse or anything. Sometimes it is.

sometimes it's just simply monetary, right? They just don't have the funds to allow them to go to college and things like that. And so JAG does a wonderful job of helping these students in the classroom environment and beyond to build their resume, to interview. And so this is one of their conferences that they have every year where all the students come together. They basically, it's kind of like a student case competition. They have a lot of judging that goes on and presentations that the students will do.

There's gonna be a lot of volunteers. I'm hoping that we can also have our podcasts there. So I'm working with them right now to hopefully have us be live there too. And so yeah, so we will have more information to come on that. But at a minimum, if you're in the Salt Lake area, I would highly recommend checking it out. They're gonna be at the Grand America. And I believe it is literally the last week of April. So it's on the 30th and then the 1st of May. So it's right at the end of the.

So highly recommend it. They still have some volunteer roles that are opening up. So if you'd like to help some of the students in some way, I'm actually going to be doing my Beyond the Resume series there. I'm going to be doing a lot of resume help as well while I'm there. There's some huge needs. And so if you can volunteer, just go to JAG.org and look up their NCDC and you'll be able to find some information on that. They do such a good job with students all over the country.

Tony Benjamin (01:26:43.401)
Awesome. Okay, well there you go. Ready? That, I think that says a lot. So you should be good. Okay, that's right. Steve, how are we gonna go out?

Steve-o (01:26:50.805)
Yeah, we're ready to go.

Steve-o (01:26:56.639)
like the same way we came in.

Tony Benjamin (01:26:59.147)
That's exactly right.

Tony Benjamin (01:27:06.177)
Thanks for listening to today's podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a five star review on your favorite podcast app. Comments or questions for us, email the podcast at HR life podcast at gmail.com and we'll talk again soon.