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From answering the phones at ILM to previs on The Phantom Menace, Alia Agha tells Ed Kramer how she became a “matchmove master” in CGI Fridays Episode 5.
SEASON 2 COMING SOON!
Industrial Light and Magic alum and CGI educator Ed Kramer (Star Wars, Stargate, The Mummy, Galaxy Quest) catches up with pioneers and innovators to learn about the coolest VFX in our favorite films and how they got started in the industry. Hilarious, informative, and surprising, CGI Fridays is a must for anyone starting a career in visual effects or computer animation, as well as fans of behind-the-scenes stories from some of the biggest science fiction films of all time.
Alia Agha: I'm Alia Agha and my
index finger is in the abyss
oh my gosh, look at you so good
to see you. This is amazing. Why
didn't technology,
Ed Kramer: the horrible thing,
all the stuff about COVID. But
the one thing it did do it
really did usher in the age of
telepresence, oh, I can sit here
and I can talk to anybody I need
to I can work with anybody. I
need
Alia Agha: to roll screens. I
was working remotely for digital
domain, you know, and I could
just share my screen, give them
control. And yeah, it's
fantastic. So,
Ed Kramer: hi. Do you remember
that just before we moved down
to the Presidio, I went around,
I got Christie, England's
permission to do it. And I
brought my camcorder in and just
walked all around Kerner, I
remember that. There were many
highlights of doing that. But
one of my favourite highlights
was filming you at your desk,
and finding out the story that
I'm about to get you to tell
about a certain movie called The
Abyss? Ah,
Alia Agha: yes.
Ed Kramer: First of all, you're
a perfect guest because you're
you. But second of all, you're
perfect guests, because you've
worked on so many movies that
are science fiction classics,
the people who are listening to
this podcast with us, our
science fiction fans, the period
of your career, which is still
going strong. I gotta say you're
not one of the people that I'm
talking to who's retiring and
relaxed and taking it easy.
You're one who's just still
right in the middle of
everything you worked on all
these shots, I want to go film
by film and just find out what
you personally contributed to
those shots. I also want to
teach people about what CGI
actually means you and I know
there's 20 or 30 different job
functions. I want them to
understand not only what you
contributed to a shot, but what
that particular kind of artists,
what isn't integration artists.
Yeah, so I want to get a little
technical. First thing I want to
do is just get a little bio
information.
Alia Agha: I grew up in
Monterey, California, I went to
a Catholic girls school for 10
years, that was heavy in the
arts. That was really a
blessing. After that I studied
film at San Francisco State that
was in the film department in
1975 through 1979. At that
point, I transferred to UC
Berkeley to finish up my degree
in screenwriting, my degree is
actually in writing.
Ed Kramer: Yeah, I saw that when
I was doing a little research on
you that you started out wanting
to write and you got some little
chances to do that.
Alia Agha: I did. I've mostly
applied it to writing training
manuals. The production tracking
system manual in the mid 90s,
and has helped a lot when I was
teaching I taught at the Academy
of Art. So I was you know,
writing my tutorials and such,
and I was there in 2019. Well,
that's cool. Yeah, yeah.
Ed Kramer: We didn't realise
what a club we were in such
Alia Agha: cool people,
especially working in a facility
now filled with young people.
And there were a few where I am.
There were a few of the old
Island people there. It really
does feel like a club. It's like
yes, I've known you for 30
years. After I graduated from
Berkeley, I took photography at
the Academy of Art, and this was
in the early 80s. I wanted a
career in the film industry. But
I wasn't really willing to move
to Los Angeles, I think I was a
little bit intimidated by the
vastness of that area. And I
didn't know anybody didn't have
any connections in the industry.
So I did a lot of different jobs
through the mid to early 80s. So
everything from retail to house
painting, was a caregiver for
adult schizophrenic because that
was a pretty interesting job.
Coincidentally, that was the
reference that actually got me
hired at ILM. I was reading
through the one ads and the
marine ij there was an ad for a
receptionist for a fast paced,
creative environment. And I just
happen to know the address. I
knew it was the current or
address and that was ilm,
Ed Kramer: you found your job at
ILM, actually in the marine
Independent Journal.
Alia Agha: Yes. Do the one EDS.
Couple months before that it was
a party and I met a woman there
named Jenny Oz, who was a foley
artist at Skywalker Sound. So I
asked her how did you get in?
How did you get in? She goes
well, I started as a
receptionist. At that point. I'd
never taken a typing class
because I did not want to get
stuck in a clerical position
after speaking with I
immediately signed up for a
typing class got a job at a real
estate company as a
receptionist. And it was then
that I saw this ad in the
newspaper for ILM and I knew
that was my job. I knew it. So I
sent in my resume I interviewed
with Lisa HOath, who was then an
assistant for Start Ross. He was
general manager. One of my job
experiences was working with
adults schizophrenics. And when
she saw that, she said, you'll
do really well here. You have
the experience to work with this
population. I was hired and
there was a commitment to say a
year on the phones, which I did.
But that actually turned out to
be one of the most interesting
times at ILM, because I got to
meet everybody. I got to meet
all their families calling in
all the people who came through
the facility at that time. And
as you know, they were shooting
inserts on the main stage. So
principal actors and directors
were always coming through the
studios. It was extraordinary to
be able to have that experience.
And after a year, I became a PA.
The first show I was on was Back
to the Future three as the
effects production system. So as
a PA for about a year, that
would have been 1990. So I
started at ILM in 1988. August
8 1988 was my first day at ILM
888. Yes, right after about a
year as a PA I 1110 kind of
downsize the projects were kind
of scarce. At that point. They
had downsized to about 90
people. I was sort of put on
hold but not the way I guess
technically laid off. I decided
to go to Europe. backpack was in
Europe for three months when I
got back. Mark Miller had talked
to somebody at Skellington
productions and they were
looking for a coordinator, stage
coordinator. And he recommended
me I interviewed got the job at
Skellington and worked on
Nightmare Before Christmas for a
year. So I was coordinating the
motion control stages, you know,
making sure puppets were on
stage and people were staying on
schedule set dressing. They're
just pretty much coordinating
everything that would go into a
stop motion shoot from set
dressing the puppets to a
camera,
Ed Kramer: working with Henry
celuk. Yes, I
Alia Agha: was working within
yourself. That was very cool.
But of course a number of ILM
camera guys were there, Dave
Haix. And Pete because I check
was the DP. So when Eddie the
third was there, so it was like
having my big brother's there.
It was fabulous. After
nightmare. I went back to ILM as
as a VFX coordinator. The show I
was working on the Star Trek
Generations. Henry Rubondo
Ed Kramer: was on that show. Oh,
I remember Henry. Yeah, that was
when he first started. He's one
of the guests I've already
recorded. An interview with
Henry is also very good friends
with Jim Morehead. The three of
us worked at the same place in
Atlanta years and years and
years ago. Such a small
community. I love it. I'm Greg
kill master if you you know,
Greg,
Alia Agha: Greg, I hung out with
Greg and Burning Man in 2003.
That's pretty nice. Actually,
before Star Trek Generations, I
worked on Maverick and wolf. The
year that I was away from
Ireland working on nightmare was
the year that they did drastic
parking for a scope that was
winds EGS was emerging as a tool
for visual effects. So I kind of
missed out on that Genesis, when
I got back to Ireland, they were
working on Casper, which I think
was probably the first big CG
show I was as a coordinator
walking around to people's
workstations, you know, taking
notes with the director or the
or the VFX soup. And I remember
thinking, I really want to be
behind a monitor. I want to be
doing this that just looks so
much more fun than what I'm
doing it and so interesting. As
you know, back then you couldn't
just call unemployment and get
visual effects artists. They
just didn't exist out in the
world. So ILM was very generous
about training people and they
had a workstation training
stations rather set up in the
optical department. After a day
of coordinating I would go to
the training station and train
in the road of software because
I thought rodo would be nice.
And I talked to John Ellis who
was his head of the department I
asked him what will it take to
get me hired as a rotoscope
artist, he said, Well, I'm
taking an X class and train and
just be ready when the positions
open up, be ready to show your
work. And that's what I did. My
first job in CG was as a roto
paint artist on Congo.
Ed Kramer: I remember them
shooting the lava between C and
D buildings.
Lawrence Kao: I hope you're
enjoying CGI Fridays with visual
effects pioneer Edie Kramer who
worked for George Lucas at
Industrial Light and Magic if
you want to read more Star Wars
stories to companions got you
covered sign up to a companion
membership at the companion dot
app. That's www dot the
companion dot a PP. Now, back to
the show
Alia Agha: that Garmin was the
via taxi. I do have a demo reel
I do not have any Congo. What am
I real though, but I did work on
some of those lava shots. Some
of the big crevice shots were in
danger of about to fall in lava
flowing all that a lot of that
of course was blue screen. So I
wrote a payment Did max for the
characters so?
Ed Kramer: Well now now would be
actually a good time to explain
to our listeners, what does it
mean to do roto?
Alia Agha: Well, rotoscoping, I
think is greatly underestimated.
People sometimes call it digital
tracing. It's much more than
that. You really have to know
how your work is being used.
That's a fine art. There were
some people who came from
traditional roto, Terry Mola,
Tory in particular used to roto
with pen and ink on animation
cells, she moved into digital
roto ahead of me, because that's
what they were doing at ILM was
training people from the
traditional departments to work
in the digital departments.
Ed Kramer: And were you using
Matador at the time? Yes,
Alia Agha: it was Matador I
would always look at her work,
because her lines were so clean
and so beautiful. And her roto
mats were perfect. She was my
guide to making you know, really
clean shapes around the moving
object. And of course, the map
has to be animated.
Ed Kramer: Make those shapes,
you're actually putting down
little points and you're
creating little curved lines
that slide every single slides.
Alia Agha: And of course,
Matador could interpolate. This
is where my education at San
Francisco State came in, because
I had studied animation. So I
knew all about keyframing. And
that kind of thing do you start
with the the big movements that
interpolates and then you go in
and do the in betweens,
animating the slides as the
character moves, and the camera
moves, because you also have
camera moves on that those maps
are written out. And all of that
is sent on to the next group
working on the shop, who
generally the compositors
Ed Kramer: when you say they're
sent out, they're sent out as
images that are either black or
white, that mat is going to be
used in the composite to either
hold out the foreground or hold
out the background and exactly
the background with a different
background or replaced the
foreground with a different
foreground along those edges. So
you had issues like with
character's hair,
Alia Agha: especially blond hair
and blue sky, I was a roto pain
artist. I'm Twister. That show
was supposed to have been shot
during tornadoes and hurricanes
and all that sort of thing. It
was shot with beautiful, bright
blue skies, and we had to insert
the grey moody heavy, windy
skies. I remember having to pull
mats and rotoscope on blonde
flowy hair and blue stuff. That
was a challenge. And what we
ended up doing actually, for
that show was painting on final
comps because oftentimes we
couldn't get a clean enough
extraction and you could see
light blue halo around
everything we would go in three
in the morning before the shot
was due, or the show was do
painting on final comps to paint
out the halo.
Ed Kramer: That's a great
explanation. I remember talking
to Kim Bromley about that very
thing. It ended up costing the
production a lot of money too
because they hadn't planned on
that as a part of the pipeline.
But it turned out to be a
critical part of the pipeline
and very labour intensive part
of the pipeline. For people who
are careful watchers of twister.
There are some very fast shots
like where they're driving
along, where they didn't do it.
They didn't do the sky
replacement. And if you're
really attentive, you can see
that there were shots that we
never were able to get to find
that
Alia Agha: there is one shot in
Twister where you do see Helen
through the back of a pickup
truck. I paid her out
accidentally. And I think that
might have made it into the
movie.
Ed Kramer: This is the great
thing about doing these
interviews you do find out just
some really funny things about
particular shots. We're already
into 9091 92 but wasn't the
Abyss in 89.
Alia Agha: So what is it 89
Ed Kramer: Was that episode that
I was going to get you to talk
about much earlier than all
this.
Alia Agha: It was a Friday
afternoon I was on the phone
trying to take a message down
when Camille Salut je the show's
PA for the abyss, came running
up, grabbed my hand held it up
to a Polaroid of Mary Mary
Elizabeth Mastro Antonio sand
and said great. What are you
doing Monday morning be here at
730 on uj and don't cut your
hand up over the weekend. And I
was like, Okay, I had no idea
what she was asking me to do.
She just said be there at 730
Don't cut your hand up. So I did
I showed up John Doe was the
assistant VFX soup at the time
on the Abyss he directed the
shoot so it was uj stage they
put some dirt on my fingers to
make it look like I've been
working in Greece and then they
drop a glycerin on the finger
and when that finger comes out
there's a little bit of drop
that's glycerin and then they
just had me do this kind of
thing over and over again until
they got the performance they
wanted. I got paid $50 for it
and went back to the reception
desk and work the rest of my
day.
Ed Kramer: Now your finger is a
part of Film History for people
who don't realise I can't
imagine anybody not realising at
this point. But there is the
shot in the abyss where Mary
Elizabeth monster Antonio seems
to be putting her finger into
the forehead of the water
creature pseudopod the pseudo
pod right? I've heard it
referred to I believe by Doug
Smith as the water weenie, they
animated the ripples coming out
of your finger, it was also one
of the first times a 3d scan of
a human head had been used to
create a CGI surface. A lot of
interesting first, but that is
your index finger, just just
hold it up to the camera. There
you go. Okay. That's it.
Alia Agha: Manager, of course,
was the first software that I
learned, I limit the time had
some proprietary software for
roto. And con, I think it was I
wrote over i comp, some I comp
was definitely one of the
software's that we use. And I
remember it kept crashing. For
me, it was just interesting,
because r&d was so active back
then, and trying to figure out
how to do this stuff. This is
getting a little bit ahead. But
when I moved into matching, we
were matching by hand in
software much. So we were
basically pixel splitting, to
try to get lineups that locked.
If you've ever tried to match,
move anything or animate
anything to match by hand in a
3d software, you know, it's
really hard, it's really hard to
get it to not chatter
Ed Kramer: match moving may also
be a term that people may not be
familiar with. And of course,
you've been a master match
mover. And you've still to some
extent, that's a part of what
you do. Even today. What that
means is when a director shoots
something on a set with a real
camera, and you're supposed to
put CGI into it, well, your CGI
has to move exactly with the
same exact camera move, even
though the CGI wasn't there on
set. So what you guys are doing
is making a virtual camera
inside of soft homage that's
going to track with the footage
that the director sent you. If a
dinosaur has to jump up on a
table, well, you need that table
there. And that has to track the
table in the footage so that you
can make shadows you can make
reflections. When you say match
moving by hand, that's a really
labour intensive process. And I
remember sitting in dailies and
looking at you know, just two or
three frames that were the match
move was sliding, and everybody
was looking at it and you had to
go back and fix those two or
three frames, there's so
Alia Agha: many layers to
matching. It's not just cameras,
it's and it's not just getting
surfaces and scale and dimension
and world space. Correct.
Sometimes you have to match
animate when there's critical
contact between a character
that's moving through space with
a CG character. And that's
called match animation. That's
what we call a match animation.
And that has to work and that
there's a whole learning process
in the early days of batch movie
and how you make that work
keeping things true in 3d space.
So you can have something in 2d
looking like it's pointing right
at camera, but the hands
actually pointing backwards or
up or something like that, you
that that's a huge part of what
Metro business well, accurate
camera information. accurate
measurements are critical to
getting an accurate match move,
taking the 3d world smashing it
into a 2d image, and then
bringing it out into 3d in a
virtual space. That's really
what management is that as a
matter of shot was scheduled for
two weeks, maybe three weeks.
And now you felt one day, maybe
two days. And that that really
comes down to software
development.
Ed Kramer: There's a lot of
tools that had been built to do
what you used to just have to do
by brute force on every single
shot. Especially if you didn't
have camera information.
Cheating was a big part of it.
That could be the motto of the
CGI industry.
Alia Agha: The way I got into
match move was again, they
needed match movers and there
were no match members in the
world to be had. So they offered
training, I signed up because I
wanted to learn how to work in
3d and I think I had an ulterior
motive of becoming an animator
someday my first batch of shot
was Mission Impossible the next
one was men and Black Friday the
pug the you can kiss my furry
little bit shot. Imagine if that
shot we had no information for
that nothing I was able to
identify in the kiosk a board
that looked like it might be a
two by four. So I built a two by
four queue placed it out in
space till it lined up and then
from that simple cube was able
to build out the kiosk get my
match move we had the mask of
Frank the pug the 3d mask with
that camera that I guess that I
match animated Frank's little
face and then somebody put his
lips moving.
Ed Kramer: Right. What was it
like working with John Burton?
Yeah,
Alia Agha: it was fun and
especially in the screening
room. You know, I really I
enjoyed his commentary.
Ed Kramer: John Burton is a
first class con artist. He's
hilarious. I would got to work
with him on the mummy in the
Mummy Returns and the biggest
laugh I ever had in a movie
theatre was in men and black
too, because I had no idea that
John had filmed himself as the
alien in the post office. I was
our visual effects supervisor. I
wasn't expecting it at all. I
just blurted out laughing in the
theatre, and everybody turned
around and looked at me. It's
not wasn't a funny moment. It
was a little embarrassing. But
anyway, after men and black I
see you were on a movie that I
was also on Deep Impact. Do you
remember what you did to either
destroy or save the
Alia Agha: that was the shot
where the big wave was coming.
And Jim Morris was running
towards camera running away from
them way.
Ed Kramer: That was Jim Marrs he
was in that? Yeah. That's the
president of Ilm. At the time,
folks.
Alia Agha: Honestly, I think
that he was still a producer at
that time. Oh, wow. But in that
shot, I imagine animated a bunch
of boats and coastlines and
things like that for the mayhem
that the waves just cause
Ed Kramer: and then we go to
snake eyes. I
Alia Agha: can't think of
anything in particular that
stood out in Snake Eyes, except
Nicolas Cage. But did you meet
Nicolas Cage? No, no, I did
that. And I was I was in the
studio completely during that
time.
Ed Kramer: And that's the number
one question you say you worked
on a movie. Oh, did you meet
whoever the actor was? No. I sat
at my desk. I never visited even
Robin Williams didn't visit
during Jumanji.
Alia Agha: So heartbroken that
he did. Flubber
Ed Kramer: Yeah, I'm Flubber
right. So now we get to Star
Wars Episode One The Phantom
Menace? I think a few of my
podcast listeners have heard of
that movie.
Alia Agha: Yeah, I was mentioned
moving on that Phantom Menace. I
do remember matching a number of
the landscapes and such that
we're in. And this is the thing
I remember most about Episode
One is being an extra. Really?
Yeah.
Ed Kramer: If I were to get the
yearbook and open that cover,
would I see you?
Alia Agha: I do remember this
one here. This is. Let me see if
I can see myself. I don't think
I was in there. I didn't have a
great costume. They didn't give
me the best costume. So this is
the crew
Ed Kramer: photo. Are you in a
shot that you know about? Just
very
Alia Agha: street scenes of
tattooing. When you see the
villager scurrying around in the
background. You know, I'm
probably two pixels high or
something. Those are my pixels.
Ed Kramer: Great, and we got to
do the same thing for the mummy
that Plaza seen at the beginning
of the movie. There's the camera
pan down across the Sphinx
thing, and then across the
plaza, and it was all model shop
stuff. But everybody who was on
the CGI crew got to put on the
costumes and have a green screen
shoot and then we were all
composited into that
Alia Agha: that one although I
did match move that shot.
Ed Kramer: Thanks for making our
feet locked to the ground. The
other thing
Alia Agha: on Episode one that
was my first experience doing
previous pre visualisation
taking storyboards, or scripts
and creating them in the 3d
environment. I did all the
cameras for the gun battle. I
was given still frames Dennis
Mirren and Dave Hey, Carrie
Costner went out to Novato and
the hills were still green. It
was in the spring and they shot
a bunch of stills. So I was
given the still photographs. I
was given storyboards, and then
the various assets Jar Jar and
all the various creatures based
on that I built out the cameras
and walked in scenes that was
probably the best experience I
had episode one that was an
opportunity to work one on one
with Dennis mir. And there were
times when he'd be at my desk
operating the mouse and I'd be
operating the keyboard just to
get the right camera the right
position that was very special.
Never forget that.
Ed Kramer: That's a really cool
memory. And those were great
episode one stories after that.
This is the film where you and I
really got to know each other my
all time favourite project that
I ever got to work with a movie
called Galaxy Quest. We made a
parody video, Chris Armstrong
wrote and directed it Sam
Stewart
Alia Agha: the voiceover I
watched that just this week. I
remember
Ed Kramer: the line. Here's a
Lea Agha busy measuring the
entire desert and there was
footage of you with a tape
measure. It looks like you are
measuring the desert. I didn't
Alia Agha: actually worked on
the shots. I was just the
location matchmaker for Galaxy
Quest. So I was on set not only
in Goblin Valley, but also in
the studios in LA that was
extraordinary. It was actually
my first job as a location match
mover errors abound. Learning
set protocol was was very
interesting. I remember at one
point somebody walked up to me
and said one thing you need to
know about working on the set is
the directors the general the
producer is the lieutenant and
it goes all the way down and
you're the private
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fingertips. All right back to
the show
Alia Agha: because that was a
real learning experience, being
on set with people like
Sigourney Weaver and Helen
Rickman, Dean Paris, so
wonderful man that was on Galaxy
Quest that I got to meet Stan
Winston because he brought in
the creatures creatures the
whole time we were working on
it, the crew didn't get that
this was going to be such a
significant movie, it seemed
like a parody. And I was like,
well, who's gonna watch this
release? And you know, when I
first saw it, I was blown away.
I just laughed. It was
hilarious.
Ed Kramer: It's one of the few
movies where the movie itself
turned out even funnier than the
script. Yes, just Dean parasols
direction and how he worked with
the thermians to develop their
performance. I just feel so
lucky to have been a part of
that I got to work with Ben snow
and develop the rock monster
sequence with so many talented
technical directors. When you
are on set. Did you actually
interact with Sigourney Weaver
and Alan Rickman, and Tim Allen?
Alia Agha: Well, minimally,
because of course, I was a
private and there was their
strict protocols, approach the
talent don't get in the way.
Although Sigourney Weaver didn't
at one point approach me and it
was only because she mistook me
for the massage therapist who
had worked to kink out of Tim
Allen's neck somehow. We looked
very similar. And so she came up
to me and I'm five feet tall.
And she bent way over and said,
Thank you so much for helping to
walk away. And I was like,
great, she talked to me.
Ed Kramer: You have a story
forever about being mistakenly
talked to by Sigourney Weaver?
That's funny. After Galaxy
Quest, I see a movie that has a
lot of really cool visual
effects. I don't know that it's
as well known but mission to
Mars.
Alia Agha: Again, I was the
location match mover for mission
to Mars and was on location for
three months in Vancouver, we
were shooting in Burnaby
studios. The challenge of this
show for location match mover
was that there really were no
set. So much of it was outer
space. And the actors were hung
on wires the whole time against
black screen, how do we put
targets up there that can be
tracked, I don't know if you
remember the plastic targets
that ILM had made, they were
hexagon X's and that sort of
thing. I talked to one of the
rigging guys asking him about
cherry pickers because I needed
to get target so high, I got
some safety pins hot glue them
to the back of the target, so I
could hook them on because the
velcro wasn't working on to the
black curtains. So he asked me
to describe what I was trying to
do. And I did. And he said, Give
me an hour, I'll be right back.
And he came back with a paint
extension pole that he had
welded a clamp onto and put a
long rope on, he rigged this
thing up so that I could clamp
my plastic target on, extend it
20 feet up in the air and hook
it into the curtain, pull the
rope and let it go. So that's
what I love about the work that
we do is that people always have
a solution for something that's
never been solved before. I
still have that poll, by the
way.
Ed Kramer: And that there's
really great story about what
it's like to be on a film set
with all these incredibly
brilliant people at rigging just
to get the shot, then the shot
ends up living forever, way
longer than the people that
figured out how to regain
creative
Alia Agha: thinking at every
level. Now the unfortunate thing
about that was that they used a
lot of really long lenses, which
means that all the targets I put
up were often not even seen and
the match moving was really
difficult because the
information was sketching.
Ed Kramer: Okay, next one is
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone the first Harry Potter
movie
Alia Agha: Yeah, that was
wonderful. I love the Harry
Potter books I was excited to
work on a Harry Potter movie was
whose location management for
that one might have been more or
less we had great information
which was the best location
matching over ever
Ed Kramer: she was a pretty good
bowler she was on my bowling
team for a while
Alia Agha: and share her
information was so right on so
detailed, so perfect. This
sequence I remember the best was
the end sequence where Harry
confronts the villain touches
his face and he turns to dust
and falls away. He's worked on
the match animation on the
character to get the face
crumbling and all the ash
falling.
Ed Kramer: That was Doug Sutton
who did the TD work on that shot
you quilling was his name
Professor coral the turbine
turbine.
Alia Agha: Yes and, and also the
shots where he has Voldemort in
the back of his head. I match
move many of those when you can
see it in the mirror. So those
were tricky shots to match. We
were cracking a reflection in
the mirror, which is one layer
of distortion in the reality of
an already unreal 2d image of a
3d environment.
Ed Kramer: There was the actor
and we were seeing the front of
his face but on the back of his
head, you had to make the CGI
Voldemort that stuck absolutely
and track perfectly so that you
know we believe that it was the
same guy turning his head and it
was on the best. Exactly that
was it. Then we get to men and
black two, which was the one
that gave me such a big laugh
with John Burton's I
Alia Agha: was matched with lead
on that show. So I had a crew
that was a big jump. I worked in
incrementally there are probably
a few smaller shows in between
those IMDb, I don't think has
the full range of movies that I
worked on. But there were a few
shows in between there. One of
my favourite sequences, I think
was when Will Smith was chasing
the big lizard creature climbing
the ladder to go up to the
Seattle spaceship the needle.
And Will Smith had to jump on
his back and he was bouncing up
and down. And of course, he was
filmed on a kind of a blue
horse. So we had to match
animate him we had, you know, we
had to match enemy cameras and
get him to ride the creature.
There was a lot of that
actually, the scene in which he
is battling with Jarrah matching
the cameras in that sequence was
hard because the cameras are
moving around so fast because
Jarrah was shooting around him,
you know, in all the little
jars. You're trying to get him
so those were fun. I think one
of my favourite shots in that
movie was when they come out of
the pawn shops at night. They
looked down Ned Gorman did the
voice is about to step on a
cockroach, and he doesn't
because he suddenly realises
it's an alien. And he looks up
and says thank you for not
stepping on me or something like
that. I love that shot.
Ed Kramer: I had no idea that
was Ned Gorman's. Yeah, that was
Ned garment. Day after tomorrow.
You were also lead match move.
Alia Agha: I love this. Yeah,
yeah. That was the wolves. Lm
did the CG wolves. And I don't
know if you remember them
bringing in a pack of wolves and
putting them out on stage. You
don't remember that. When they
had the animators and the wolves
were on a platform. They bring
about one at a time. And it was
really just to observe them and
see how they move. And I
remember going out there just
because I had to see the wolves.
It was the first time I'd seen
one in real life and making eye
contact with a wolf was the most
chilling experience. First thing
I thought of was this is not a
dog. And the second thing is
this creatures probably more
intelligent than I am.
Ed Kramer: I don't think you can
find a wolf on the planet who
can match move. I really don't.
I don't have some sense.
Alia Agha: Being able to
interact with wolves in real
life was was the highlight for
me. I know this is not really CG
stuff, but it's what the
experience leads to really one
of
Ed Kramer: the themes that
develops is that one person can
work on a lot of different shows
over the course of a career.
That's why I think this is kind
of fun, just going movie by
movie and oh my god, you worked
on that and that the next one I
see is another really great cult
classic movie, A Series of
Unfortunate Events. What do you
remember about working on Lemony
Snicket?
Alia Agha: Well, I remember
working on the shots that were
shot in this incredible dome. I
don't know what it was called.
They had the set where they
created the Lemony Snicket world
underneath a dome so that the
sky ticular mood and lighting,
and it was beautiful. It was
beautiful. I loved working on
the shots because they were so
beautiful. And so interesting.
There was shots so well again,
the match moves were pretty
straightforward. There was
nothing unusual is you know, so
my pleasure came in revelling in
the imagery.
Ed Kramer: Beautiful. I think we
did such a beautiful job on the
CGI photorealistic good.
Alia Agha: Yeah, that was
amazing. I don't know if you
contacted Terry Mola, Tori's She
was educated on that. And that
baby is in fact, in her real
it's a beautiful shot of the
baby. But then at the very end,
one pixel pops off and you can
see that it seemed Gee, and it's
just perfect. You're sitting
there thinking this is a real
baby and then all of a sudden up
and it's like wow,
Ed Kramer: now we got Harry
Potter and the Goblet of Fire
matches lead again. Well, they
Alia Agha: have a lot of
Quidditch scenes, a lot of time
dragons. In terms of management.
What was interesting is that we
had to have particular camera
rooms built we would match move
blue screen element of the kid
on some kind of blue horse or
whatever. We would extract the
kid from that that whole match
move would be put on a rig with
a secondary camera that would
then film that element flying
through space. So we call it two
and a half d we could fly the
character around shooting it
from a secondary camera and it
was those cameras that were used
to put the kids on brooms or put
the kids on dragons.
Ed Kramer: Wow. Yeah, that's
complicated. It was very
complicated.
Alia Agha: And I have to do a
similar thing. Now. I'm just
wishing I had that camera rig.
So we're building a rig now to
reproduce that. So,
Ed Kramer: okay, Chronicles of
Narnia, Lion, Witch and
wardrobe.
Alia Agha: Yeah, yeah, did a lot
of that match animating people
wearing blue pants so that they
could become centaurs?
Ed Kramer: I worked on a few of
those shots. Now I see Aragon,
did you get to work with Stephen
as your director?
Alia Agha: No, I was not on
location for that. When that was
tape was more or less well, but
I was the lead I was the
management lead on that.
Ed Kramer: It says lead layout
artists. So what's the
difference between match move
and layout,
Alia Agha: and here it comes.
The cool thing about this
particular job, we'll call it
integration for lack of a better
word. Match loop is simply a
component of integration
layouts. A second component,
basically what I described with
the Quidditch scenes and putting
the characters on a secondary
camera and flying them around,
so it looks like blue screen
elements or writing rooms or
dragons. That's layout. That's
basically the next step. You
mentioned, if your camera you
match some of your characters,
then you lay out the scene so
that everybody down the pipeline
from animators to final TDs
continues that secondary camera
to build shot previous is
sometimes been called layout,
but basically taking the
elements and putting them
together in a 3d pre comp in a
sense.
Ed Kramer: So that might mean a
character is shot on a blue
screen set, and has to jump from
something that was shot on one
layer of film. And then he has
to jump to something else that
was shot at a different time.
And sometimes the scales are all
different. You have to create a
3d world in which the camera
moves from one of those things,
looking at it and then moves to
the other thing and you're
compositing not just layers of
background, but 3d movements of
different parts of the
background together.
Alia Agha: Yes, exactly. It's
fun. It's a big puzzle.
Ed Kramer: It seems like a three
dimensional puzzle for each
shot. Now do they ever consult
you on how they should shoot
some of the elements
Alia Agha: would be the job of
the location match River and the
VFX it's usually the VFX making
those calls.
Ed Kramer: I don't want to miss
Iron Man. digital artists so is
that a different thing that you
were doing?
Alia Agha: At some point? The
credit at ILM shifted from
specific departments to grouping
everybody under digital artists
I basically match move match
animation match animating Tony
Stark so that his suit could
stick to him again the blue
screen two and a half d shots of
him flying through space a lot
of him was CG was there
Ed Kramer: a CG actor's face or
was that all actual performance
from the actor?
Alia Agha: I can't say for sure.
But I do believe it was
performance from the actor he
had a body scan of him so that
we could match animate him and
apply the suit the flying Iron
Man Of course was all CG the
scenes where he's in his helmet
talking that's live action, like
his face is live action. It's
composited
Ed Kramer: in. Now we've got
Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of
the Crystal Skull. Did you get
to be on set for that though?
Alia Agha: That was in the
studio for that when I did a lot
of the shots in the warehouse
Chase or Harrison Ford is
jumping from Box stack to box
stack are swinging with his whip
trying to get away from the bad
guys. They extend extension
show? Yeah,
Ed Kramer: what does it mean to
do set extension,
Alia Agha: ah set extensions.
Oftentimes, they will shoot a
blue screen element with a
portion of the set, they did
this a lot on Episode One, a lot
of what we saw were set
extensions, it's the match
movers job again to lock the
camera to that plate with the
set and the character. And then
in digit matte or digital matte
painting, they will go in and
they will either paint or have a
3d environment that's rendered
to match the foreground. And
that will be locked into that
plate. So it looks like for
example, in the warehouses,
Harrison Ford might be on one
box in foreground. And then he
looks like he's in a giant
warehouse going all the way
back. Well, in fact, there was
just a blue screen behind him,
then the warehouse behind him is
all CGI. So that's what a set
extension would be.
Ed Kramer: If the camera moves
and sees a big background, the
stuff that they're seeing is
just a CGI rendering of what
that environment would look
like. And in the foreground,
they got the character and the
one or two things he has to jump
up and interact with everything
else is the magic. Yes, exactly.
You got to work on a bunch of
Harry Potter movies. Here's the
Half Blood Prince. Yeah, so
Alia Agha: I worked on some of
those shots and the Petunia
shots and the mentors are coming
in and grabbing Harry this is
when that's on my reel is when
the Weasley twins are fighting
and then they turn into old men
by the match enemy Get them get
the camera match and then make
them wiggling around and
fighting and then get a lock on
the head and their faces so that
when they sit up, all the hair
is scrounging around and the
hair locks to them. I'm not sure
if that's the right Harry Potter
movie. Or if I can back up a
little bit to the previous Harry
Potter film we talked about with
the dragons. And this was kind
of interesting, technically,
because it hadn't been done
before. But there are scenes
where the kids are choosing the
dragons that they're going to be
fighting, the dragons are in
their hands, neither they're
pulling them out of the bag. And
there's a scene where Harry is
wearing a glove, and he's
holding a dragon in his hand,
his hand is moving. So the
question was, how do you match
animate a surface that's
animating, it's not a rigid
object moving through space.
It's a very organic shape. So
Zoran came up with it was
something he had been
experimenting with, but hadn't
been used in production yet
where we could animate the
vertices of the geometry. So I
use that not only for the
gloves, but there's a scene in
that movie where they go into a
tent. And once they go into a
tent, they go into a magical
world, and they're pulling back
the curtain of the tent, they
wanted to put a very special
fabric on that curtain. So that
I use that same technique where
I animated the vertices back to
to create the folds of the
curtain going back, and then
they could project their
preferred fabric on that
curtain. movings. That was
pretty neat.
Ed Kramer: I hope my listeners
understand that this is
something that is invisible.
Yes, we don't see your work
because the shot just works. You
really are kind of that Wizard
of Oz behind the curtain pulling
the levers. And
Alia Agha: my family always used
to ask, you know, what is it
that you do on these movies?
Because they didn't actually
point and say, you know, that
thing is what I made, and I like
to tell them was if you can see
my work, then I didn't do it
right, because my work by nature
has to be invisible.
Ed Kramer: The one movie that I
really, really wish I could have
worked on was rango. It was more
than just doing your work. It
was actually also making the
movie.
Alia Agha: It was making the
movie I have a unique role on
Rambo in that I was set
dressing. I wasn't actually
doing the layout cameras. They
needed somebody to set dress the
town of dirt, placing barrels
placing objects throughout that
made it look like rodents lived
in this town. The general store
was really fun. So if you look
at the general store, and every
can every hat every basket was
placed by hand by me in the set.
And the fun part of that was
that I had a lot of freedom.
Here's an empty building dresser
and I got to work directly with
the director and the art
director crash McCreary in
getting the look that he wanted.
That was really special working
with Gordon Penske and crash
McCreary
Ed Kramer: I had a very similar
thing on Harry Potter to Draco
and Harry are flying around the
trench outside the Quidditch
stadium. I did the same thing I
put all the barrels all the
shovels all the rakes all the
ropes ladders, because we had to
build the entire perimeter of
the trench. Were there any CGI
challenges to that? Did they
have to develop new software
Alia Agha: because the sets were
getting so heavy with all the
assets Carlos Lunas created a
particle system for example, in
the library in other books, all
the books were hand place. They
were set pieces, but they were
particles. So that made them
very light, the grass that was
placed in different things that
was new, I was bringing in
instances of set pieces
instances of props, rather than
the actual props and they look
perfect.
Ed Kramer: were you actually
doing the looked of turntables?
No, no,
Alia Agha: I wasn't doing that.
No, I was filling the room with
stuff and then passing it on.
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Ed Kramer: what was it like at
the shop itself? Because ILM had
always been kind of we do this
work for this movie, or we do
this work for that movie, but
there must have been just some
amazing feeling in the air that
everybody was making the movie
itself.
Alia Agha: Yeah, it was it was
very exciting. The notion that
we were making an animated
feature rather than
participating in somebody else's
feature. I remember Gore
Verbinski once saying that what
surprised him about making this
movie Was that absolutely
everything had to be created for
the film? I think initially
people think well, you know,
making an animated movie that's
a lot easier than live action.
You don't have to go out on set.
You don't have to do this.
You're just right there in the
studio. And yet, like you said,
they don't realise is that every
blade of grass, every board,
everything needs to be placed by
hand again, with the particle
technique, especially in the
desert. I didn't dress the
desert. They came up where they
could just make instances of
grass clumps that would go at be
spread out.
Ed Kramer: Was Tony Platt, did
you work with?
Alia Agha: I did. I did totally
plan on that. Yeah.
Ed Kramer: I'll just tell you a
quick Tony Platt story after he
got his degree in CGI, somewhere
in Florida. He came to Atlanta
and got an internship at
Crawford, which is where I was
where Henry was, and Barbara
Nellis was there, Greg kill
master was there. And so Tony
actually started his career as
my intern.
Alia Agha: See, always be nice
to the intern. Be nice to
Ed Kramer: the intern. Then he
went on to the George Lucas's
right hand guy and strange
magic. Yeah,
Alia Agha: I worked with him on
strange magic as well. I think
the credit is 3d story artist,
essentially, previous as I
recall, the show did not have
storyboards, they didn't want to
go through the storyboard
process. Instead, we would get
pages of script again, we had
all the assets and the particle
technology had already been
developed, we bring them all
into Maya, there was a software
written by Max Chen called Ziva
is, and then gee whiz, gee whiz
was the previous software that
you could, you know, pull in
your assets, pull in your camera
and push things around was very
fast, we actually did end up
working in Maya, mostly, we took
the scripts and built out the
scenes in 3d. So it was a little
bit like directing your own
shot, where am I going to place
the characters, they're going to
be dancing ballroom sequences,
you know, who's going to be
dancing past them. It was fun
creatively in that the 3d layout
artists were able to give a lot
of their own input into the
look, the camera moves,
everything was originated from
us, all we had was a script
page. And then that, of course,
was presented to the director
and thrown out usually and do it
again. But
Ed Kramer: the director being
George, yes. There's three
movies that all are similar in
time period, and look, and
that's Transformers Dark of the
Moon, battleship, and Pacific
Rim. All three of those were
really significantly into what
could be done with CGI.
Alia Agha: And I think at that
point, we were using Zeno, we
haven't talked about Zeno, yet.
Zeno is the most extraordinary
tracking software on the planet.
I was a beta tester for Xena.
When Steve Sullivan and Max Chen
were writing this it kind of
emerged from this disco, no
software called Crimson tracker.
That was like the first tracking
software that we use at ILM back
in the 90s. At some point, ILM
threw a lot of big brains at
matchmove tracking the
developers sitting in our room
working with us working on
shots. So they developed this
software called Zeno that could
absolutely do everything. It was
kind of built with a very
familiar interface. That's what
we were using on those shots. So
at that point, they know how to
develop to the extent that you
could do stereo tracking, and I
could pull extractions, there
was even its own sequencer
attached to it. If we were
working on a layout project. You
can sequence your shots and see
how they've tied together that
software is not talked about
enough. And I really do wish it
was on the market because since
I've left ilm, I have long to
use seen in the work that I've
done. There's nothing like it.
Ed Kramer: It goes from 2013
Pacific Rim to 2019. The captain
at Whiskey tree, I would assume
that in the interim, you were
working on projects that may not
have been feature films
Alia Agha: exactly after ilm, I
worked for a startup called
creature art and mechanics. And
it was a number of ilm, people
who started it Scott Smith, Tim
Naylor, they started this
company. It was located in C
buildings, which is absolutely
cool. I was sitting in large
graphics. Upstairs C building
kitchen, which had once been in
the editing room for Jedi was
basically our lunch room. And
the way I got into that was
Terry military called me one day
and said hey, you know there's
this like little startup
happening and see building. They
don't have any projects.
Nobody's getting paid, but
people just show up and you can
use their equipment. They have
workstations and come on it. You
come for lunch and just see
everybody after that. I just
started showing up every day
with the intention of training.
We called ourselves the CG club.
Everybody just showed up. Nobody
was getting paid. We had lots of
fun. The intention of the
company was digital humans and
2014 We were approached to do a
virtual Michael Jackson breeding
Michael Jackson for the 2014
Billboard Awards. There was a
song that he had recorded that
had not been won least called
slave to the rhythm we shot a
Michael Jackson impersonator
doing all the action and replace
the heads there was extensive
asset development on Michael
Jackson's head. Since we didn't
have 3d scan of him. We wanted
him from a certain period of his
life. We had a facial modeller
named Shraga lice working with
us, he came up with the idea to
take still images of Michael
Jackson. And we did this for
Elvis as well, we developed a
really beautiful Elvis asset,
take still images, I would match
cameras. And again, you know,
you have to make up the cameras.
But I would match the camera to
the assets. So we would find
images that would give us you
know, sort of a rotation of the
face in different angles of the
space and stick the 3d geometry
on through matched cameras and
put them in a loop and he would
go through using these cameras
and the 3d image or the 3d
geometry lined up to the face
and sculpt and model the asset
and came up with a beautiful
Michael Jackson asset. So that
was presented at the Billboard
Awards. And then after that that
company was bought by a company
in Florida, we developed a
beautiful Elvis asset. Some of
the group got together and wrote
a script. Based on Elvis his
life, we were hoping to be able
to produce that as startups will
just sort of folded after about
two and a half years that was so
much fun. CG Club was amazing.
And after that I work for
whiskey tree. The captain was a
Chinese productions based on a
true story of a plane that took
off in China. Somehow the front
windshield was blown out. They
were flying through the
mountains, and they had to turn
the plane around flying through
a tremendous storm with a hole
in the windshield in the
cockpit. And he ended up landing
it safely and everybody lives.
The work that we did was the
whole flight of the aeroplane.
And it's experienced going
through the big clouds in the
store. That was a pretty good
film. I don't know that it was
released in the United States.
Ed Kramer: I know you went down
to DD worked with my buddy Jim,
can you talk about what you did
there, I
Alia Agha: can talk about some
of it. The shows that I worked
on are on the verge of being
released or have been released.
When COVID hit in 2019. I was
teaching matches with the
Academy of Art we went to remote
learning in March finished out
the semester. And I expected
that I would go back in the
fall. But then enrollment
dropped due to COVID. So I
started looking around saw an ad
for facial tracker for DD remote
work. So it did work remotely.
The first show I worked on was
in Supermassive Games, it's just
been released the quarry that
was using masquerade technology
to track the faces. And after
having worked on the asset
development for Michael Jackson
and Elvis working on this show
was just huge leaps and bounds
in terms of technology and how
we were getting the results. It
was extraordinary, you know that
you can just get wrinkles and
subtle twitches in the skin
based on the tracking markers
based on what the software would
do. And I can't tell you
everything about it. But the
results were beautiful. And
after that I worked on a
Chevelle. I did facial tracking
on She Hulk as well. And that
should be coming out soon.
Ed Kramer: I'm excited for that.
So we've made it through your
work. And this represents a huge
chunk of time from the late
1980s. Up until right now 2022.
We're talking in June of 2022.
Do you ever look back on your
lace, you're still in it? So
maybe you don't yet have this
global perspective? I like to
now think back on it as a period
of time of my life. What do you
think back on overall on your
career and what you've seen and
how it's gone? And who you are
in it?
Alia Agha: Wow. Well, I think I
was incredibly fortunate to be
around for what I consider the
golden age of visual effects. I
didn't realise the gift that it
was at the time. But when I do
look back I realised I learned
from the people who were
inventing the craft as they were
inventing, I just don't know of
any other opportunity that could
have been better learning from
these brilliant, brilliant minds
coming up with solutions to
impossible problems that had
never been solved before. So
that's the thing that comes out
for me most when I look back was
sitting in a room looking around
at the people in the room just
imagining the IQ quotient going
through the ceiling. You know,
and that was a privilege to work
with such extraordinary people
beyond that, you know, I think
being a female in the industry.
Ed Kramer: That was my next
question. So you just led right
into it
Alia Agha: being one of the I
imagine one of the few first
women in CGI, I would guess
although I have no evidence of
this, that I was probably the
first Arab American woman to
work in CGI. We were
trailblazing in our own way
keeping up technologically. I'm
an artist. I don't have a
technological background per se.
I identify more as an artist
learning that technology as it
was being developed was huge
challenge immensely exciting
then of course a little bit
insecure. Like, they're gonna
find me out. I realised now that
everybody was kind of going
through that as well, because
everybody was learning that
hasn't changed. I'm working on
another stop motion film. And
Jim said, as I was leaving Diddy
goes, well, this is a great book
into your career. I'm working on
a puppet show. It's being
integrated with CG. This is like
a studios. Yeah, and I'm camera
matchmove lead at Laika studios.
It really does feel like I've
come full circle in my career
working at Leica. We are doing
things that we haven't done
before. We're developing
technology and it's constantly
learning. I think that's what I
love about my career more than
anything. It's nonstop learning
feel really privileged. I feel
really blessed that I've been
able to do this work and work
with people like you, many of
our friends, I have no words.
You
Ed Kramer: have plenty of words,
and they were just brilliant.
Thank you so much Alia Agha, for
being on the podcast, CGI
Fridays for the companion. You
are a wonderful, wonderful
guest. Thank you so much. This
was great.
Alia Agha: Thank you. It's been
a pleasure.
Lawrence Kao: Thanks for
listening to CGI Fridays with
Industrial Light and Magic alum
Ed Kramer. The companion is the
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