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Rethink Culture is the podcast that shines the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture. Virtually all of the business leaders who make headlines today do so because of their company performance. Yet, the people and the culture of a company is at least as important as its performance. It's time that we shine the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture and are putting people and culture at the forefront.
[00:00:07.13 - 00:00:10.03] Good morning, good afternoon and good evening.
[00:00:10.03 - 00:00:14.19] Welcome to the Rethink Culture podcast, the podcast that shines a spotlight on the
[00:00:14.19 - 00:00:18.00] business leaders who are creating intentional cultures.
[00:00:18.08 - 00:00:24.04] My name is Andreas Konstantinou and I am your host and I'm also the founder of
[00:00:24.05 - 00:00:27.11] Rethink Culture, a company that aims to help 1 million businesses create a
[00:00:27.11 - 00:00:30.10] healthier, more fulfilling work culture.
[00:00:30.18 - 00:00:35.08] We just launched a new service, Culture Health Score, that turns your culture into a KPI.
[00:00:36.13 - 00:00:44.22] And today I have the pleasure of welcoming Wendy Van Ierschot, the founder and CEO of
[00:00:44.22 - 00:00:51.10] VIE people, that's V-I-E, People and Culture, an advisory firm for fast scaling
[00:00:52.17 - 00:00:54.11] companies in the Netherlands.
[00:00:54.21 - 00:00:56.11] She's many things.
[00:00:56.11 - 00:00:58.08] She's a business angel investor.
[00:00:58.08 - 00:00:59.10] She's a podcaster.
[00:00:59.10 - 00:01:02.15] She's recorded over 160 episodes for Dutch
[00:01:02.17 - 00:01:06.12] business radio news channel called The Work Professor.
[00:01:07.11 - 00:01:15.03] She's listed on the worldwide top 100 HR influencers list and she just published
[00:01:15.03 - 00:01:21.01] her book, Scale-ups & downs, which aim to guide an organization through the
[00:01:21.01 - 00:01:24.19] stages of growth and she's been researching that for many years.
[00:01:24.19 - 00:01:30.04] I met Wendy a while ago, we're both at the Entrepreneurial Organization, we were both
[00:01:30.04 - 00:01:31.15] at the same class.
[00:01:32.02 - 00:01:37.16] And also you might notice Wendy wearing glasses, which I love by the way.
[00:01:37.21 - 00:01:42.05] And I think you are slightly visually impaired, which is why you're wearing
[00:01:42.05 - 00:01:47.19] glasses, but it's the most fashionable way of making that statement that you could
[00:01:47.19 - 00:01:48.10] possibly be.
[00:01:49.02 - 00:01:50.08] Thank you, yeah.
[00:01:50.08 - 00:01:55.21] It's of course not nice to be visually impaired, but then when I became I thought
[00:01:55.21 - 00:01:59.05] I do something that it also looks a bit better.
[00:01:59.16 - 00:02:01.23] It does, it does.
[00:02:02.01 - 00:02:03.15] It's a fashion statement.
[00:02:05.00 - 00:02:07.08] So where do we start, Wendy?
[00:02:07.12 - 00:02:12.00] How long have you been into HR and culture in general?
[00:02:12.00 - 00:02:15.12] And is that, was that by choice or was that by accident?
[00:02:15.14 - 00:02:17.00] It is by choice.
[00:02:17.06 - 00:02:21.02] I studied business administration, then I was...
[00:02:22.02 - 00:02:26.12] My first contract and employer was Shell, the big oil company.
[00:02:26.21 - 00:02:30.23] And there I got the offer actually to choose between marketing and HR.
[00:02:31.06 - 00:02:39.09] And I felt that the topics that are in the HR field are in my interest area.
[00:02:39.16 - 00:02:44.15] And that was a good choice actually, because I got a lot of offers during my
[00:02:44.15 - 00:02:51.13] career to go into more line manager roles or other professional areas, especially
[00:02:51.13 - 00:02:52.15] within Shell.
[00:02:52.15 - 00:02:58.00] But I think thinking about cultures, how people work together, making it better on
[00:02:58.00 - 00:03:02.06] the working floor, also leadership development is still something that is
[00:03:02.06 - 00:03:03.23] very inspiring for me.
[00:03:05.00 - 00:03:08.04] You mentioned already, I wrote the book, Scale-ups & downs
[00:03:08.04 - 00:03:11.03] The English version is ready, I think, in a few weeks.
[00:03:11.03 - 00:03:16.19] And probably when this is broadcast, it is already to be bought at Amazon.
[00:03:16.22 - 00:03:24.16] But I list there what is the best way for entrepreneurs to develop their companies?
[00:03:24.16 - 00:03:25.13] What is the culture?
[00:03:25.13 - 00:03:27.18] Why it is so difficult to get the right culture?
[00:03:27.18 - 00:03:31.10] And also what are your priorities in the HR field?
[00:03:32.06 - 00:03:36.17] But if you read that book, it's the total opposite of what Elon Musk, for example,
[00:03:36.17 - 00:03:37.08] is doing.
[00:03:37.08 - 00:03:41.23] Or there are other leaders that are very successful and that are doing things that,
[00:03:42.01 - 00:03:47.16] out of research, is clearly not working, but in their companies it is working.
[00:03:47.18 - 00:03:52.17] So now I'm, for example, really investigating into what are they then doing?
[00:03:52.17 - 00:03:59.12] What is the combination of elements they put together that it does work, although
[00:03:59.12 - 00:04:01.15] they create a culture of fear,
[00:04:01.15 - 00:04:08.03] and they create a culture where there's high pressure all the time and also a lot
[00:04:08.03 - 00:04:09.22] of people are not staying, you know.
[00:04:09.22 - 00:04:14.08] So very, very interesting field.
[00:04:14.08 - 00:04:20.21] And with the new technology, a lot of new data is coming up where we also get a
[00:04:20.21 - 00:04:25.14] better steering wheel, I think, for driving and navigating through these
[00:04:25.14 - 00:04:26.17] cultural processes.
[00:04:27.03 - 00:04:29.18] So I'm curious about your book, I want to ask you more.
[00:04:30.19 - 00:04:32.05] Very quick personal story.
[00:04:32.05 - 00:04:39.01] So when I was starting as an entrepreneur, my role model was Steve Jobs, as was the
[00:04:39.01 - 00:04:42.22] role model for a lot of people, which was the wrong model in many ways.
[00:04:43.03 - 00:04:50.13] It's the know-it-all guy, the visionary leader who kind of pushes people out of
[00:04:50.13 - 00:04:54.17] their way or out of his way in order to get...
[00:04:55.05 - 00:05:01.00] you know, his own vision executed and is in a sense...
[00:05:01.00 - 00:05:03.06] And who can stamp on the research
[00:05:03.06 - 00:05:07.05] reports and say, what is this for bullshit, things like that, yeah.
[00:05:07.05 - 00:05:15.12] Yeah, and I found, well firstly, it was not my true self, it was not my authentic self.
[00:05:15.15 - 00:05:19.08] So it took me many years, and especially through EO, watching other leaders and
[00:05:19.08 - 00:05:25.22] learning, to realize that I'm much more of a servant leader.
[00:05:27.04 - 00:05:32.14] But I started from completely the wrong role model because that was the role model
[00:05:32.14 - 00:05:37.04] that was being played back again and again through the media.
[00:05:37.10 - 00:05:39.02] Indeed. And that’s exactly...
[00:05:39.02 - 00:05:44.10] it's very interesting, isn't it, that we have leaders in our media that we know out
[00:05:44.10 - 00:05:52.11] of research that they're doing elements in their behavior that is not motivating, not
[00:05:52.11 - 00:05:54.11] inspiring for people to work with.
[00:05:54.11 - 00:05:57.19] And on the other hand, they achieve amazing results.
[00:05:57.19 - 00:06:02.01] I think it's actually, I'm now making a list of what are the pros and cons.
[00:06:02.01 - 00:06:06.06] And I think my hypothesis is that it's...
[00:06:06.06 - 00:06:13.10] It comes along with also elements that you are having a BHAG, a big hairy odacious
[00:06:13.10 - 00:06:19.08] goal that is very inspiring for people in the combination with your own excellence
[00:06:19.08 - 00:06:27.13] as a really genius mind and you also have you have the same behavior so you stay up
[00:06:27.13 - 00:06:33.05] all night doing work yourself and success from
[00:06:33.05 - 00:06:36.18] you know, so there are a lot of other aspects that also need then to be there.
[00:06:36.18 - 00:06:42.04] And it's something that should be your authentic self indeed and cannot be copied.
[00:06:43.09 - 00:06:47.09] The inspiration for this podcast was actually that we use the wrong success
[00:06:47.09 - 00:06:53.10] metrics or we use exclusively performance as success metric in the media and we
[00:06:53.10 - 00:06:56.06] should be looking at happiness and fulfillment
[00:06:56.15 - 00:06:59.11] and how people learn and grow.
[00:07:00.02 - 00:07:03.22] You mentioned leadership development as a passion of yours, so how people grow in
[00:07:03.22 - 00:07:09.15] the organizations and how taking care of the people will take care of the business itself.
[00:07:09.20 - 00:07:12.23] So yeah, we need to change our paradigms.
[00:07:13.03 - 00:07:16.14] And I think also that if you look at the sustainable development goals, for
[00:07:16.14 - 00:07:22.08] example, for the United Nations, there are a lot of aspects in there like equal pay
[00:07:22.08 - 00:07:33.23] or development of people, education, social welfare, physical health, that are
[00:07:33.23 - 00:07:36.11] being influenced by how we work.
[00:07:36.13 - 00:07:37.07] So,
[00:07:37.13 - 00:07:42.02] only by creating a work environment where people can grow and feel motivated and
[00:07:42.02 - 00:07:50.03] have meaning in what they're doing, is also really adding value to the world as a whole.
[00:07:50.03 - 00:07:54.01] And I think that is also an underappreciated aspect of companies.
[00:07:54.02 - 00:07:58.16] So walk me through what does a company do to build a culture?
[00:07:58.19 - 00:08:01.09] What are some of the key takeaways from your book?
[00:08:02.16 - 00:08:08.10] In my book I describe four stages of growth from 0 to 100 employees.
[00:08:08.10 - 00:08:13.17] The first stage is from 0 to 10, the second one is from 10 to 25 employees,
[00:08:13.17 - 00:08:17.04] then the third is from 25 to 60 and then 60 to 100.
[00:08:17.09 - 00:08:21.15] So there are four stages and for each stage of growth I describe that what you
[00:08:21.15 - 00:08:26.04] need to do to build a great culture is different.
[00:08:26.04 - 00:08:29.19] So that is the first lesson, I think, out of the book, that most of the time, if you
[00:08:29.19 - 00:08:34.07] read a book about culture or leadership, it's not telling you the difference
[00:08:34.07 - 00:08:37.03] between smaller or larger organizations.
[00:08:37.05 - 00:08:44.08] Now, to give you an example, for example, is in every new innovative company, you
[00:08:44.08 - 00:08:45.11] need innovation.
[00:08:45.11 - 00:08:49.17] And innovation, most of the time, is linked to being able to make mistakes
[00:08:49.17 - 00:08:52.10] because you need to walk into new...
[00:08:53.08 - 00:08:57.10] streets where you do not know the end yet and maybe it's a dead end street you need
[00:08:57.10 - 00:08:58.11] to go back.
[00:08:58.13 - 00:09:03.20] So we all agree that making mistakes is something that is needed to have a culture
[00:09:03.20 - 00:09:05.08] where that is possible.
[00:09:05.14 - 00:09:11.07] On the other hand you do not want people to be incompetent to make mistakes all the
[00:09:11.07 - 00:09:13.03] time in the wrong areas.
[00:09:13.03 - 00:09:16.09] So you do not want people to make a mistake that is something that could have
[00:09:16.09 - 00:09:21.03] been avoided only if you would have listened to your colleague or if you
[00:09:21.03 - 00:09:25.14] would have learned from last time and not repeated the same thing again.
[00:09:25.23 - 00:09:36.05] So one mistake that is a good step into innovation and creativity is not the same
[00:09:36.05 - 00:09:39.14] as another mistake that is just a form of incompetence.
[00:09:39.16 - 00:09:46.19] Now for example to make sure that you are very keen on incompetence, so making sure
[00:09:46.19 - 00:09:48.01] that is not possible.
[00:09:48.01 - 00:09:49.10] That you are very...
[00:09:49.10 - 00:09:54.08] focused on the right performance behaviors, core values in your company.
[00:09:54.08 - 00:09:58.21] For that, something else is needed in the first stage when you're only with six
[00:09:58.21 - 00:10:03.00] people, you're on one table, you know immediately if someone is performing or
[00:10:03.00 - 00:10:08.23] not, you see the sales go up or down, your metrics are not needed to be so exhaustive
[00:10:08.23 - 00:10:11.07] because you know exactly what happens.
[00:10:11.08 - 00:10:13.20] Different when you are with 60 people.
[00:10:13.20 - 00:10:17.10] You do not see everyone, not everyone is on the same floor, maybe in different
[00:10:17.10 - 00:10:20.06] departments, maybe even in different countries.
[00:10:20.06 - 00:10:25.14] You need a different system to investigate are people competent or incompetent and
[00:10:25.14 - 00:10:29.12] are the mistakes that are made mistakes that we need to learn faster than a
[00:10:29.12 - 00:10:36.19] composition or is it a mistake that should be leading to maybe firing someone because
[00:10:36.19 - 00:10:39.15] you're not up to par with what we need.
[00:10:39.16 - 00:10:43.13] Now that is, I think the main message of the book.
[00:10:43.15 - 00:10:50.09] Like we need to have tools in HR to more and more build the culture we want.
[00:10:50.09 - 00:10:55.00] So if you want to have creativity and innovation, you need to focus on
[00:10:55.00 - 00:10:59.22] intolerance for incompetence and making sure that you have built that right in
[00:10:59.22 - 00:11:00.17] your system.
[00:11:00.17 - 00:11:06.11] Another example is, for example, on the one hand you need strong leadership, a
[00:11:06.11 - 00:11:08.04] clear vision, a BHAG.
[00:11:08.04 - 00:11:12.21] What I already said, you know, like Elon Musk is working on the energy transition
[00:11:12.21 - 00:11:18.02] with electrical cars, making sure that people believe in the fact that it is the next
[00:11:18.02 - 00:11:25.22] wave of cars that we need to work on or going, you know, what he did with SpaceX.
[00:11:25.22 - 00:11:32.10] It's a very challenging and interesting idea and also very clear what we want.
[00:11:32.10 - 00:11:39.06] You know, like in two years time, I want a space shuttle in that direction.
[00:11:39.18 - 00:11:42.22] On the other hand, you need to let go and
[00:11:42.22 - 00:11:47.01] give people the responsibility to build your company because if you are doing
[00:11:47.01 - 00:11:50.21] everything yourself, you will be the bottleneck of the organization.
[00:11:50.21 - 00:11:57.11] Now, of course, if you're in stage two, up to 25 people, that has a different meaning
[00:11:57.12 - 00:12:01.17] because you cannot let everything be done by anyone else.
[00:12:01.17 - 00:12:04.03] You need to do a lot of things still yourself.
[00:12:04.03 - 00:12:09.17] Then if you are with 500 people, then you really want the company to be...
[00:12:09.21 - 00:12:17.09] relying on your management team and you, as the visionary founder, bringing the
[00:12:17.09 - 00:12:19.01] excitement in the company.
[00:12:19.01 - 00:12:23.14] So that also means something different for your style, your leadership style, as well
[00:12:23.14 - 00:12:30.02] for how you, what kind of nudges, little pushes in the right direction you need in
[00:12:30.02 - 00:12:30.23] your organization.
[00:12:31.05 - 00:12:35.15] What are some of the mistakes you see leaders of mid-sized organizations, I
[00:12:35.15 - 00:12:40.10] mean, in your paradigm, let's say 25 or 50 people, make?
[00:12:41.10 - 00:12:50.11] The biggest mistakes founders make is that what brought them the success is the main
[00:12:50.11 - 00:12:53.09] pitfall for further expansion.
[00:12:53.09 - 00:12:58.04] So to give you an example, if you start your own company, most of the time you
[00:12:58.04 - 00:13:02.01] have an idea I'm going to do this different than the competition.
[00:13:02.01 - 00:13:03.13] I have a new idea.
[00:13:03.16 - 00:13:06.02] What other people are doing is not the right way.
[00:13:06.02 - 00:13:08.09] This is the way I want to do it.
[00:13:08.09 - 00:13:12.20] Now, most of the time you have to pivot a few times, but if you would have listened
[00:13:12.20 - 00:13:20.00] to everyone in the beginning of your company, you would not have been able to
[00:13:20.04 - 00:13:25.12] sail out of the, how do you say that, out of the port, you know, because everyone is
[00:13:25.12 - 00:13:27.20] saying something different and you go all kinds of directions.
[00:13:27.20 - 00:13:31.12] So you need to have a sort of an idea, I'm going to do this, and of course you listen
[00:13:31.12 - 00:13:34.21] a bit to others, but you're sticking to your own points.
[00:13:34.21 - 00:13:37.21] Now, then if you are successful,
[00:13:37.21 - 00:13:43.17] and you are growing, then there is a point, and it is around 25 people, where
[00:13:43.17 - 00:13:46.20] you need to do exactly the opposite.
[00:13:46.20 - 00:13:52.15] Then you need to start shifting from, I'm the leader, I'm the most important person
[00:13:52.15 - 00:13:56.06] in this company, or maybe you're with two or three founders, we are the ones that
[00:13:56.06 - 00:14:02.03] are deciding this, towards, there needs to start a little management team, other
[00:14:02.03 - 00:14:05.16] people really need to drive the organization, I need to turn into a
[00:14:05.16 - 00:14:07.06] coaching style.
[00:14:07.08 - 00:14:13.12] I need to look for what is needed in the future in five years time and what comes
[00:14:14.02 - 00:14:21.17] as a threat to us from the outside world, for example by wars or by economic
[00:14:21.17 - 00:14:26.19] outlooks and what is the implication for that for our companies, what are the
[00:14:26.19 - 00:14:31.23] technology that is developed that could be of big influence of us.
[00:14:31.23 - 00:14:36.09] So you need to switch gears and also your style.
[00:14:36.09 - 00:14:41.10] While your style was what made you successful.
[00:14:41.10 - 00:14:46.09] So you need to realize I'm in a new stage and that is very difficult on the one hand
[00:14:46.09 - 00:14:49.17] because it's for most founders, they like this style.
[00:14:49.17 - 00:14:55.05] So they want to, the excitement of every day, you know, running your company,
[00:14:55.05 - 00:15:03.15] getting a new client in, the excitement of new research that fits and works, they
[00:15:03.15 - 00:15:05.22] need to step away a bit of that
[00:15:07.00 - 00:15:11.06] and let others really excel in that role.
[00:15:11.15 - 00:15:15.23] And you could choose actually not to do that, but then someone else need to become
[00:15:15.23 - 00:15:16.23] the CEO.
[00:15:16.23 - 00:15:22.12] So either you want to stay working in your business, but then someone else needs to
[00:15:22.12 - 00:15:27.11] work on your business, or you need to move to working on your business yourself,
[00:15:27.11 - 00:15:31.16] which means on the outlook, what is happening in the future?
[00:15:31.16 - 00:15:35.20] What will that be as a consequence for our company
[00:15:36.05 - 00:15:40.14] or, and the other aspect is capacity building.
[00:15:40.14 - 00:15:44.04] So what finance, what people, what capital do we need?
[00:15:44.04 - 00:15:46.00] What technology do we need for future?
[00:15:46.00 - 00:15:49.03] That is your working on your business task.
[00:15:49.03 - 00:15:51.17] And that's getting more and more important if you grow.
[00:15:51.17 - 00:15:54.18] Most founders cannot make that switch.
[00:15:55.07 - 00:16:05.02] One of the reasons for moving out from the CEO position for me was that I was managing
[00:16:05.02 - 00:16:10.05] other people that or specifically leading other people and so helping them be
[00:16:10.05 - 00:16:14.17] successful and so not getting my hands dirty with products or projects or
[00:16:14.17 - 00:16:15.17] clients.
[00:16:16.00 - 00:16:18.04] And that was something I missed a lot.
[00:16:18.15 - 00:16:21.20] Yeah, that you yourself would like this is what I like.
[00:16:21.20 - 00:16:24.16] But I had, I mean, my role was
[00:16:25.06 - 00:16:27.06] 25-35 people.
[00:16:27.08 - 00:16:31.08] My goal was then to make other people successful and not get my hands dirty
[00:16:31.08 - 00:16:37.11] because there's not that far I could go if I continued being in the business like you said.
[00:16:38.19 - 00:16:43.10] Yeah, so it's very interesting actually to hear that because I think that what you
[00:16:43.10 - 00:16:47.12] have experienced is something that a lot of leaders experience and founders and
[00:16:47.12 - 00:16:52.04] that you made the right move for the company, but then maybe you did not make
[00:16:52.04 - 00:16:53.18] the right move for yourself.
[00:16:53.18 - 00:16:55.06] You know, like, what do I like?
[00:16:55.06 - 00:16:56.18] Where do I get my energy from?
[00:16:56.18 - 00:17:02.18] And that's why I, in every stage of growth in my book, the first...
[00:17:04.17 - 00:17:08.04] The first element I discuss is you as a leader and your style.
[00:17:08.04 - 00:17:13.01] And also every time the question is the role that I'm doing right now, the role
[00:17:13.01 - 00:17:15.07] that energizes me as well.
[00:17:15.07 - 00:17:20.00] So making a bit more a difference between what is needed for my company and what is
[00:17:20.00 - 00:17:22.23] actually needed for me to be energized in my role.
[00:17:23.03 - 00:17:30.02] Yeah, in my case, I moved into hands-on work and product development as I'm doing
[00:17:30.02 - 00:17:31.19] now for Rethink Culture.
[00:17:31.19 - 00:17:34.13] So that was part of the transition plan.
[00:17:34.13 - 00:17:38.23] But it also reminds me that a lot of CEOs, entrepreneurs,
[00:17:39.14 - 00:17:45.10] think about the next day which is the exit or the or moving away from the CEO
[00:17:45.10 - 00:17:50.07] position, but they don't think about what gives them energy from their existing work
[00:17:50.07 - 00:17:53.02] and how they're going to replenish that.
[00:17:53.20 - 00:17:59.14] And at the end of the day, we have to be honest and assess what do we love doing?
[00:17:59.14 - 00:18:01.08] What are we really good at?
[00:18:01.11 - 00:18:04.01] Can we do it within the existing business?
[00:18:04.13 - 00:18:06.12] And if so, what's our niche spot?
[00:18:06.12 - 00:18:10.22] You know, if it's creative or if it's strategy or if it's culture or something else.
[00:18:11.05 - 00:18:14.22] And let other people run, you know, every other aspect.
[00:18:14.22 - 00:18:16.01] I think that's more honest.
[00:18:16.03 - 00:18:17.14] That is for sure, yeah.
[00:18:17.14 - 00:18:23.13] And also realizing that most of the time, your strength is the company's weakness.
[00:18:23.13 - 00:18:28.03] So for example, if you're very good in sales, probably your sales department
[00:18:28.03 - 00:18:30.05] isn't that strong without you.
[00:18:30.13 - 00:18:36.11] While you're building other elements that you are not that fond of, much more and
[00:18:36.11 - 00:18:40.00] better, because you know you do not want to do that yourself.
[00:18:40.02 - 00:18:41.11] So, yeah.
[00:18:41.11 - 00:18:42.18] Good point.
[00:18:44.12 - 00:18:46.01] What do you think about
[00:18:47.06 - 00:18:50.15] developing our leadership style as leaders?
[00:18:50.15 - 00:18:56.14] So where does an entrepreneur go to figure out what is their leadership style?
[00:18:56.14 - 00:18:59.23] Or you talked about leadership development, where does a leader go to
[00:18:59.23 - 00:19:01.10] figure out what's their own style?
[00:19:01.10 - 00:19:05.02] Because again we have the wrong role models out there.
[00:19:05.05 - 00:19:10.05] Yeah, I think we can actually, I don't know if I would phrase it as the wrong
[00:19:10.10 - 00:19:20.17] role models, but I think looking at others and really mirroring what is really
[00:19:20.17 - 00:19:25.17] something that I would like to do, so not focusing on, okay, this has made him
[00:19:25.17 - 00:19:29.18] successful or her successful, so that is what I'm going to do as well, but more
[00:19:29.18 - 00:19:31.21] like what can I learn from...
[00:19:31.23 - 00:19:36.13] elements, what are elements that are resonating with me and that would be great
[00:19:36.13 - 00:19:37.14] for me as well.
[00:19:37.14 - 00:19:44.22] But to answer your question, I think it's quite difficult to find the right place
[00:19:44.22 - 00:19:49.07] for you to find out who you are and what type of leader you are and what you really
[00:19:49.07 - 00:19:53.18] love to do, because there are a lot of tests around in the world that are not
[00:19:53.18 - 00:19:59.06] scientifically backed, that are, you know, I think that if you do a test it should be
[00:19:59.06 - 00:20:01.10] a bit like a photo you take.
[00:20:02.06 - 00:20:07.02] And if you take a photo now, and you would take a photo of me two years from now, I
[00:20:07.02 - 00:20:08.08] will be a bit different.
[00:20:08.08 - 00:20:13.16] I would probably have more gray hair, but you still recognize me as me.
[00:20:13.20 - 00:20:19.07] And there are a lot of tests outside in the world that can give you a complete
[00:20:19.07 - 00:20:22.05] different view of yourself two years later.
[00:20:22.05 - 00:20:26.19] That means that they're not so in depth, really looking at who you are.
[00:20:26.19 - 00:20:27.18] That's more...
[00:20:27.22 - 00:20:32.18] also influenced by how you felt that day that you filled in the test, for example.
[00:20:33.02 - 00:20:38.21] I think if leaders would adopt the fact that it's very interesting to investigate
[00:20:38.21 - 00:20:43.21] yourself and to take yourself as a research object and to take some tests,
[00:20:43.21 - 00:20:47.19] some scores and really reflect on it, do I recognize that?
[00:20:48.01 - 00:20:52.04] And there are some in the world that are very good.
[00:20:52.21 - 00:20:57.04] I think also going to leadership courses, we are both
[00:20:57.04 - 00:21:01.04] a member of the Entrepreneurs' Organization, which is a peer-to-peer
[00:21:01.04 - 00:21:03.08] network for founders.
[00:21:03.10 - 00:21:07.09] I think that's very interesting because you meet a lot of different people and via
[00:21:07.09 - 00:21:15.17] that organization, I for example, been to Harvard Business School and did a few days
[00:21:15.17 - 00:21:18.03] on entrepreneurial strategy.
[00:21:18.03 - 00:21:22.22] And I learned a lot about myself, but also about different leaders, different styles,
[00:21:23.00 - 00:21:26.10] and then being in the surrounding with other entrepreneurs.
[00:21:26.14 - 00:21:31.11] entrepreneurs that have other styles also, you learn a lot from looking to others and
[00:21:31.11 - 00:21:33.12] thinking, hmm, that's not me.
[00:21:33.21 - 00:21:35.17] And hmm, that's me.
[00:21:36.10 - 00:21:38.06] So I think that will be what I would do.
[00:21:38.06 - 00:21:45.10] So a combination of tests, a combination of a little bit mentorship, mentoring, and
[00:21:45.10 - 00:21:49.17] also really, really good education, investing into yourself.
[00:21:50.01 - 00:21:55.02] I always say the development of the company is the development of the founder.
[00:21:55.02 - 00:22:00.02] So the more you develop yourself, the better probably your organization will be.
[00:22:00.13 - 00:22:09.10] And how do you develop the leaders within your company to not create a gap between
[00:22:09.10 - 00:22:10.07] you and them?
[00:22:10.11 - 00:22:12.22] I am not a saint, unfortunately.
[00:22:13.07 - 00:22:17.16] I would have loved to be a saint and to say, okay, I have here the formula and I
[00:22:17.16 - 00:22:20.03] do everything really, really well.
[00:22:20.09 - 00:22:26.13] I think it starts, in my point of view, by hiring from the beginning, at least 40% of
[00:22:26.13 - 00:22:32.12] the people that you hire with a potential to really grow into the company.
[00:22:32.12 - 00:22:36.13] So at least one, at least two levels up,
[00:22:36.13 - 00:22:40.17] they need to be able to get there and you want a few people to hire every year
[00:22:40.17 - 00:22:45.03] that really, really have potential to lead your company.
[00:22:45.05 - 00:22:46.01] So that's first.
[00:22:46.01 - 00:22:52.14] Then you have a talent group, a talented group, then involving a lot of people into
[00:22:52.14 - 00:22:57.06] your company already from the beginning in the, that they also take a bit of
[00:22:57.06 - 00:23:03.02] ownership in, you know, the strategy into what is needed is an opportunity to
[00:23:03.15 - 00:23:09.05] to help them and coach them develop their skills to, how do you think about that?
[00:23:10.20 - 00:23:18.05] What kind of decisions do we need to make if the market is going down or up, or if
[00:23:18.05 - 00:23:24.15] clients are running away or not getting engagement from the whole team around that?
[00:23:24.15 - 00:23:27.16] Then I think formal education is very important.
[00:23:27.16 - 00:23:32.18] And I have seen the big difference between cheaper education
[00:23:32.18 - 00:23:40.23] in institutes that are not so renowned or not so really well, most of the time not
[00:23:41.00 - 00:23:47.12] helping a lot in the business and also formal education only works if you need
[00:23:47.12 - 00:23:51.13] that what you learn immediately in your work.
[00:23:52.05 - 00:24:00.09] So only let people go to formal education by which I mean going to institutions or
[00:24:00.09 - 00:24:02.15] at the moment there's a lot of online
[00:24:02.15 - 00:24:07.03] available also in a lot of learning platforms where you really can get great
[00:24:07.10 - 00:24:10.19] learning, but it should be something that you are using.
[00:24:10.19 - 00:24:15.15] Great example of course if you do an Excel course but you do not use the Excel for
[00:24:15.15 - 00:24:18.04] two months after it's wasted money.
[00:24:18.10 - 00:24:23.03] And then in the work you need to have a good feedback system where you really get
[00:24:23.03 - 00:24:29.22] people to throw them into the deep water and help them not to drown.
[00:24:30.07 - 00:24:35.01] But they really need to feel sometimes that they're almost drowning to learn what
[00:24:35.01 - 00:24:36.09] needs to be learned.
[00:24:37.02 - 00:24:41.11] And I think that combination, and it's often with, if you want to learn something
[00:24:41.11 - 00:24:45.02] really good, it's a combination of factors that is needed.
[00:24:45.19 - 00:24:54.14] Then another element is making sure that you are, again, I focus on that a lot, not
[00:24:54.20 - 00:24:57.01] so easy with people that are not
[00:24:57.07 - 00:25:00.21] having the right behavior or the right performance in your company.
[00:25:00.21 - 00:25:06.08] Because if you want to really develop leaders in a good way and they work with
[00:25:06.08 - 00:25:11.21] other leaders that are having behavior like aggressive behavior or not the right
[00:25:11.21 - 00:25:15.16] core values, it's influence the best leaders as well.
[00:25:15.17 - 00:25:19.23] Maybe they leave or they think, Oh, apparently that works.
[00:25:20.09 - 00:25:25.01] And apparently I should show that that's kind of behavior as well.
[00:25:25.06 - 00:25:26.19] And you do not want to signal that.
[00:25:26.19 - 00:25:28.06] Is that an answer to your question?
[00:25:28.06 - 00:25:29.11] It is, it is.
[00:25:29.18 - 00:25:39.01] And then when the staff member or the leader takes the course, comes back to
[00:25:39.01 - 00:25:41.23] work, is that the end or is that the beginning?
[00:25:42.01 - 00:25:50.06] So how do you like, how to use that as an opportunity for
[00:25:51.06 - 00:25:54.16] the learning to be hands-on, how to use that as an opportunity for the learning to
[00:25:54.16 - 00:25:58.10] be shared and more collective, if it can be?
[00:25:59.00 - 00:26:04.14] So one thing that works is you come back from such a course and most of the time we
[00:26:04.14 - 00:26:10.08] have a sort of a, how do you say that in English, a sort of a list like this is
[00:26:10.08 - 00:26:14.03] what I want to change in my behavior and this is what I want to change in my
[00:26:14.03 - 00:26:17.19] organization and this is what I want to change within other people.
[00:26:18.00 - 00:26:18.20] And then
[00:26:18.20 - 00:26:23.06] after a week you're disappointed because you didn't change yourself that much as
[00:26:23.06 - 00:26:27.17] you thought the organization does not move at all and others are not interested
[00:26:27.17 - 00:26:31.08] because they think okay you've been on that course but I haven't and I'm not
[00:26:31.08 - 00:26:35.07] interested you know so then you're disappointed a week two weeks three weeks
[00:26:35.07 - 00:26:39.20] and nothing happens it's very interesting to pay a bit of attention to what your
[00:26:39.20 - 00:26:45.20] intention is to share that with colleagues to share that with a mentor or your boss.
[00:26:45.20 - 00:26:50.08] And to really go over it, you know, like every two weeks, have a coffee, just, you
[00:26:50.08 - 00:26:55.10] know, 15 minutes, and to talk about what was your intention when you came back and
[00:26:55.10 - 00:26:57.02] why is it so hard?
[00:26:57.14 - 00:27:04.17] Because if it was easy, and I think we should be much more, how do you say that,
[00:27:04.17 - 00:27:09.12] nice to ourselves, that if it was so easy, we would have done it all.
[00:27:09.12 - 00:27:15.09] You know, if it was easy to change our behavior, if it was easy to be the best leaders
[00:27:15.16 - 00:27:21.09] we wouldn't have these engagement figures of 14% or less.
[00:27:21.09 - 00:27:25.19] You know, if it was easy to become a great leader, we would have totally different
[00:27:25.19 - 00:27:31.14] politics, totally different companies, totally different burnout rates.
[00:27:31.14 - 00:27:35.10] So apparently it is very difficult.
[00:27:35.15 - 00:27:42.11] So acknowledging that it's not easy and then taking that as a challenge for
[00:27:42.11 - 00:27:44.20] yourself and for the company,
[00:27:46.03 - 00:27:50.16] like, okay interesting why is it so difficult for me?
[00:27:51.21 - 00:27:56.05] I thought I want to become a servant leader and the only thing what I do when
[00:27:56.05 - 00:28:01.10] I'm stressed is yelling at people and say you need to do this and why are you so
[00:28:01.10 - 00:28:02.23] stupid to do that?
[00:28:03.09 - 00:28:09.22] So then to investigate why is it so difficult for me and not pushing this to
[00:28:09.22 - 00:28:15.04] others that they are not doing anything and then going inside yourself maybe with
[00:28:15.04 - 00:28:16.02] some help.
[00:28:16.04 - 00:28:17.03] What is it so difficult?
[00:28:17.03 - 00:28:19.01] What do I need actually?
[00:28:19.01 - 00:28:20.08] What happened?
[00:28:20.08 - 00:28:22.01] Analyze, what happened?
[00:28:23.19 - 00:28:25.16] What happened inside me?
[00:28:25.20 - 00:28:26.17] What was triggered?
[00:28:26.17 - 00:28:30.20] Most of the time you're so triggered about our youth, through our youth, youth.
[00:28:30.20 - 00:28:33.09] What nothing has to do with the work environment.
[00:28:33.09 - 00:28:36.13] And I think investigated that makes us humans.
[00:28:36.13 - 00:28:42.01] And that makes you also a better leader if you understand what happens inside yourself.
[00:28:42.01 - 00:28:45.18] It's also easier to be compassionate
[00:28:45.18 - 00:28:46.20] with others.
[00:28:46.21 - 00:28:49.03] Than with ourselves, right?
[00:28:50.02 - 00:28:55.21] You mentioned to me earlier, before starting the recording, you're proud that
[00:28:55.21 - 00:29:01.23] at VIE, at your company, people can reflect on themselves.
[00:29:03.02 - 00:29:03.18] Tell us more.
[00:29:03.18 - 00:29:08.12] So, this last point, what I mentioned, you know, like, okay, what does happen with me?
[00:29:08.12 - 00:29:13.23] If you act like this in a meeting, I have the feeling that you do not back me up,
[00:29:13.23 - 00:29:17.18] that you let me, you know, that you push me away.
[00:29:20.08 - 00:29:23.21] And I know that might be not your intention, but that is happening with me.
[00:29:24.16 - 00:29:29.07] And then being able to have a conversation about that is really helpful.
[00:29:29.07 - 00:29:34.01] And I think that's one of the things that I'm very proud of that also in our
[00:29:34.01 - 00:29:39.22] selection process, we have questions in which we test if people can look back on
[00:29:39.22 - 00:29:44.16] themselves and think like, okay, there I've learned a lot, you know, or there I
[00:29:44.16 - 00:29:48.18] made a decision that from hindsight, always easier than from the beginning.
[00:29:48.18 - 00:29:53.22] Uh, I could have done differently and we want people that
[00:29:54.08 - 00:30:01.22] what I said, have an interest or at least, you know, they say there's a crack in
[00:30:01.22 - 00:30:04.04] everything that's where the light comes in.
[00:30:04.04 - 00:30:08.14] And at least I want a little crack in your ego to see that you're okay with
[00:30:08.14 - 00:30:16.03] investigating your ego and to investigate like, okay, I have a little crack in this
[00:30:16.03 - 00:30:18.16] and I want to understand why this happens.
[00:30:18.16 - 00:30:21.19] And I think that really improves the world in the end.
[00:30:21.20 - 00:30:22.22] If we learn
[00:30:22.22 - 00:30:29.17] in our work, you know, to have meaningful work if we learn to receive feedback and
[00:30:29.17 - 00:30:35.18] to not think like who are you to say this to me or look at yourself, you're doing
[00:30:35.18 - 00:30:37.00] this wrong yourself as well.
[00:30:37.00 - 00:30:40.16] But if we really would be able to say, okay, you say this to me, is there any
[00:30:40.16 - 00:30:46.11] valuable point in, is there something that I would like to change or to develop
[00:30:46.11 - 00:30:47.13] myself in?
[00:30:48.03 - 00:30:51.13] I think that would be so much better for the world.
[00:30:51.22 - 00:31:01.15] I was recently talking with a friend who is very much self-aware, but very much,
[00:31:02.17 - 00:31:04.18] maybe a little bit overconfident.
[00:31:04.22 - 00:31:11.13] And she said, I know exactly who I am and I don't need to learn anything new about myself.
[00:31:12.11 - 00:31:15.21] And I, at that point, I didn't know how to react.
[00:31:16.22 - 00:31:22.17] Because I'm fundamentally, and like the sign says behind me, I'm always learning,
[00:31:22.17 - 00:31:28.04] I'm always trying to figure out what childhood programming there is hidden
[00:31:28.04 - 00:31:32.01] inside my brain that I need to re-examine and challenge.
[00:31:32.13 - 00:31:36.13] And I was there with a person that was saying, well, I don't want to do that,
[00:31:36.13 - 00:31:44.07] which is fine with me, but then I feel that it's so much of a potential that is wasted.
[00:31:44.07 - 00:31:47.16] Yeah, I can totally relate with that.
[00:31:47.16 - 00:31:55.00] So my first, if someone says that to me, I come back to my point, there's a crack in everything.
[00:31:55.17 - 00:31:57.15] That's where the light comes in.
[00:31:57.15 - 00:31:58.16] Then there's no crack.
[00:31:58.16 - 00:32:03.03] You know, you have, you've said, this is my ego, this is my system, I know myself.
[00:32:03.03 - 00:32:08.17] I think if you look back at where we came from when we were a baby up till now, and
[00:32:08.17 - 00:32:12.01] you look back, we're changing
[00:32:12.01 - 00:32:13.01] all the time, isn't it?
[00:32:13.01 - 00:32:19.10] The environment is changing, we're getting older, we learn new things, so only by
[00:32:19.10 - 00:32:22.02] that, you already know that we're changing.
[00:32:22.07 - 00:32:29.04] Things can happen to you, so I became, I had a visual impairment that is really
[00:32:29.04 - 00:32:34.11] making my work more difficult to do, and that is changing me as a person, and for
[00:32:34.11 - 00:32:37.21] what I can do or not can do, and that is for everyone.
[00:32:38.10 - 00:32:41.06] So if someone says, I know everything,
[00:32:41.12 - 00:32:47.13] Sometimes I think maybe I need to wait a bit because there is no opening in that
[00:32:47.13 - 00:32:52.23] person to really, yeah, to be open to something else.
[00:32:52.23 - 00:32:55.15] And most of the time it's a defensive structure.
[00:32:55.17 - 00:32:59.02] So it's something that we need to hold ourselves together.
[00:32:59.06 - 00:33:05.16] So I feel more compassionate or a compassion for that person that I think
[00:33:05.16 - 00:33:10.08] and being interested, why is it that you need such an armor
[00:33:10.08 - 00:33:17.06] around you, such a face, what is it that is so difficult for you to let go a bit of
[00:33:17.06 - 00:33:24.09] that armor, to open up a bit and to understand that we are such small
[00:33:24.09 - 00:33:29.01] creatures on this world, it is impossible to say I know everything about myself
[00:33:29.01 - 00:33:34.04] because I think it's a learning process until we die to find out who we are and
[00:33:34.04 - 00:33:36.20] most of the time we're only awareness that
[00:33:37.21 - 00:33:41.10] Yeah, where we feel things and it's different all the time.
[00:33:41.18 - 00:33:50.14] So I would then probably try to ask some questions to figure out why is it needed?
[00:33:50.14 - 00:33:58.08] But it's then more my interest in a human not to convince her or him to open up, but
[00:33:58.08 - 00:34:03.13] more for me to understand why is this needed for this person?
[00:34:03.21 - 00:34:10.08] We had in an event a year and a half ago in EO Unlimited Santorini, we had a
[00:34:12.12 - 00:34:18.11] paraplegic, I forget his name now, a guy who was born with no hands or legs.
[00:34:19.16 - 00:34:24.02] And he was saying, look, everyone has a disability.
[00:34:24.17 - 00:34:27.05] It's just mine is so evident.
[00:34:27.06 - 00:34:31.05] We all have our superpowers and our super weaknesses, if you like.
[00:34:31.06 - 00:34:36.18] But for some people it's very evident and actually admire that we started and you
[00:34:36.18 - 00:34:43.02] started with your visual impairment and I hope more people start by
[00:34:43.02 - 00:34:49.07] being vulnerable even in, you know, first introductions.
[00:34:49.09 - 00:34:59.10] Yeah, and then actually it is, I really like to listen to you Andreas, because now
[00:35:00.08 - 00:35:05.05] in this time, in this moment of time when you say being vulnerable, I realize we are
[00:35:05.05 - 00:35:08.06] vulnerable, everyone is vulnerable.
[00:35:08.15 - 00:35:16.06] So we do not even need to start with it, we only need to open up a bit so that we
[00:35:16.07 - 00:35:17.16] let go of our armor.
[00:35:17.16 - 00:35:18.12] Because
[00:35:18.21 - 00:35:23.14] We have built that probably in the time that it was needed, but now we're growing up.
[00:35:23.14 - 00:35:28.08] And I think the beauty in growing up is that you can also scratch a bit of the
[00:35:28.08 - 00:35:33.15] armor every day again and again, a little bit off, because you're growing up and you
[00:35:33.15 - 00:35:35.16] can stand on your own feet.
[00:35:35.17 - 00:35:39.12] And it actually makes it easier to connect with other people.
[00:35:39.14 - 00:35:44.21] And if we think about the technology development that is going so fast, so
[00:35:44.21 - 00:35:48.13] rapid scaling technology with artificial intelligence.
[00:35:51.01 - 00:35:55.03] It will be easier for technology to do a lot of the analysis that we've done.
[00:35:55.03 - 00:36:00.18] Everything that we needed the armor for, for example, to be able to perform that,
[00:36:00.19 - 00:36:05.07] is probably being taken over by technology or robots.
[00:36:05.07 - 00:36:12.00] And what they cannot do and will never be able to do is to make the real human connection.
[00:36:12.00 - 00:36:15.06] And the creativity in our brains.
[00:36:15.06 - 00:36:16.00] And the...
[00:36:16.01 - 00:36:16.17] Yeah.
[00:36:16.21 - 00:36:21.20] connecting the dots in a totally different way that's never been done before, but
[00:36:21.20 - 00:36:27.18] that's only possible if we can drop down a bit of our armor, if every day we scratch
[00:36:27.18 - 00:36:29.02] a little bit off.
[00:36:29.02 - 00:36:33.17] And you cannot do that when you're six, but you can do that when you're 30.
[00:36:33.18 - 00:36:39.09] But you're still carrying the armor that you developed when you were six.
[00:36:39.11 - 00:36:40.07] Indeed.
[00:36:40.13 - 00:36:42.19] But you can look at it differently.
[00:36:43.05 - 00:36:47.16] You can look with compassion to it and think like, okay, now I'm again triggered
[00:36:47.18 - 00:36:57.00] and I want to put that on again, but let me stay in this moment and feel what needs
[00:36:57.00 - 00:36:59.23] to be felt to get to know myself again a little bit better.
[00:36:59.23 - 00:37:03.03] And start punching holes through it so that the light can get through, like you
[00:37:03.03 - 00:37:07.05] said, or like Leonard Cohen said.
[00:37:07.05 - 00:37:10.00] So your visual impairment, how did it change you?
[00:37:10.00 - 00:37:13.19] How did you have to adapt at work or personally?
[00:37:14.13 - 00:37:16.03] I'm still in it, Andreas.
[00:37:16.03 - 00:37:19.04] It started six, seven years ago with one eye.
[00:37:19.04 - 00:37:25.03] Then with one eye, if one eye drops out, I have one eye that is moving and a laughing
[00:37:25.03 - 00:37:28.12] mirror picture it gives me.
[00:37:29.18 - 00:37:31.15] One eye is still okay-ish.
[00:37:31.15 - 00:37:34.21] You can very well function with one eye.
[00:37:35.11 - 00:37:38.14] Two years later, the other eye, same problem.
[00:37:38.20 - 00:37:43.06] That made me impaired, I think you say in English.
[00:37:44.23 - 00:37:49.22] And it changed me, I think, because I had to adjust my company.
[00:37:49.22 - 00:37:53.05] So I couldn't be the leader I wanted to be.
[00:37:54.04 - 00:37:57.01] I have weeks that I cannot read anything.
[00:37:57.06 - 00:38:01.19] I have days where everything is shaking in my vision.
[00:38:02.12 - 00:38:07.18] There are days that are very well working, that I have the experience that I see like
[00:38:07.18 - 00:38:08.19] other people.
[00:38:09.01 - 00:38:13.11] I know it isn't, because sometimes I miss elements in my field.
[00:38:14.13 - 00:38:19.03] It changed me because I had to let go of my identity.
[00:38:19.03 - 00:38:23.10] I was a party animal, you know me from that time still.
[00:38:23.20 - 00:38:25.19] I really liked to party.
[00:38:25.19 - 00:38:27.21] I really liked to work hard.
[00:38:27.21 - 00:38:35.22] I really liked to work in the evening to get new ideas out when nobody interferes
[00:38:35.22 - 00:38:37.05] with my time.
[00:38:37.17 - 00:38:39.00] And I had to...
[00:38:39.09 - 00:38:40.22] see that is not possible anymore.
[00:38:40.22 - 00:38:45.05] I cannot work in the evening anymore too late because my view is not good enough.
[00:38:47.05 - 00:38:49.16] So it made me more vulnerable.
[00:38:50.03 - 00:38:52.01] I have to change my leadership style.
[00:38:52.01 - 00:38:57.08] So being more coachy instead of saying, you need to do this or you need to do that.
[00:38:57.22 - 00:39:02.19] I had to dive into myself much more, still a process I'm working on.
[00:39:03.12 - 00:39:06.06] I try to be nicer to myself.
[00:39:06.06 - 00:39:08.18] So not only taking care of myself to
[00:39:08.23 - 00:39:12.19] survive but also taking care of myself to really feel good.
[00:39:13.04 - 00:39:14.23] That's a totally different thing.
[00:39:16.23 - 00:39:28.00] I think I became more aware of this moment in time, not really living in the future.
[00:39:30.05 - 00:39:31.20] Yeah, I think that.
[00:39:31.20 - 00:39:35.17] And if that's your super weakness, what's your super strength or superpower?
[00:39:35.19 - 00:39:45.12] I think my superpower is that I am very good in having a conceptual thought, so
[00:39:45.12 - 00:39:52.19] like either a book or a new theory or a new scientific report or new technology
[00:39:52.19 - 00:39:57.11] and to think about what does that mean for our day to day life.
[00:39:57.11 - 00:40:02.17] So if I read this book, what does that mean if I want to implement that in the
[00:40:02.17 - 00:40:04.20] company, what steps do I need to make?
[00:40:05.18 - 00:40:06.18] What is needed for that.
[00:40:06.18 - 00:40:12.10] And I noticed that it is for me very easy, that I can get immediately ideas how to
[00:40:12.10 - 00:40:16.03] get that done, while for others that is very difficult.
[00:40:16.13 - 00:40:21.13] So I think that is one thing, and the other thing I would say my energy.
[00:40:21.13 - 00:40:25.01] People like to work with that, I think.
[00:40:25.01 - 00:40:28.06] And I would add one third one, which I've shared with you before, your social
[00:40:28.06 - 00:40:34.13] empathy, because when we were in the same class together, you had everyone, all 40
[00:40:34.13 - 00:40:37.01] people, send a postcard a week...
[00:40:38.13 - 00:40:38.19] Yeah.
[00:40:38.19 - 00:40:45.12] to the organizer to Polo and you had this all synchronized so that there was a
[00:40:45.12 - 00:40:51.08] postcard leaving one country to arrive to Polo in the Netherlands every single week.
[00:40:51.20 - 00:40:57.03] So that's a you know that's a person with a huge heart there so I have a lot of respect.
[00:40:57.03 - 00:40:58.16] I really thought that Polo did
[00:40:58.16 - 00:41:04.22] a really great job and I thought it was a nice idea and if I then have that idea
[00:41:04.22 - 00:41:07.05] then I make sure that I finish it.
[00:41:07.05 - 00:41:11.06] But of course everyone worked with it because you needed to send the cards.
[00:41:11.06 - 00:41:13.17] But I reminded everyone every week.
[00:41:13.17 - 00:41:14.22] Yeah that's true.
[00:41:16.00 - 00:41:19.05] So Wendy, I know you're limited in time.
[00:41:19.05 - 00:41:28.13] And so as we wrap the recording, what parting words would you like to leave
[00:41:28.13 - 00:41:33.08] leaders out there with like, how should we rethink culture?
[00:41:33.08 - 00:41:36.04] How should we be more intentional about culture?
[00:41:36.04 - 00:41:41.02] Well, maybe I may say a few things about the HR, human resources, people and
[00:41:41.02 - 00:41:42.11] culture field.
[00:41:42.19 - 00:41:46.23] Because what I now see is that a lot of leaders prioritize what they do in that
[00:41:46.23 - 00:41:52.10] field based on their experience of former employers, where they have worked or what
[00:41:52.10 - 00:41:54.21] employees ask you to do.
[00:41:54.22 - 00:42:00.14] And I think there is a real structure that is needed to build up a great organization
[00:42:00.14 - 00:42:03.00] that starts with hiring the right people.
[00:42:03.06 - 00:42:08.02] Focus on the fact that you are really having a great employee experience to get
[00:42:08.02 - 00:42:13.14] into the company and then make sure that the onboarding is well delivered.
[00:42:13.14 - 00:42:17.21] But in the beginning, you know, with four, five, six people, it doesn't really matter
[00:42:17.21 - 00:42:21.17] if that is really all very well done or not.
[00:42:21.17 - 00:42:28.15] So prioritizing to doing the right notches with your toolbox that you get into the HR
[00:42:28.15 - 00:42:30.18] field is really important.
[00:42:30.18 - 00:42:36.08] And I would love to invite leaders to learn more about that.
[00:42:36.08 - 00:42:39.06] And you can link with me on LinkedIn.
[00:42:39.06 - 00:42:41.00] You can say, OK, I'm now in this stage.
[00:42:41.00 - 00:42:44.23] I can send you like, OK, these should be your priorities right now.
[00:42:45.09 - 00:42:51.08] But really prioritize based on what is needed to scale your company and not on
[00:42:51.08 - 00:42:57.01] what you think yourself out of your experience from your former employers or
[00:42:57.01 - 00:42:58.01] what people ask you to do.
[00:42:58.02 - 00:43:00.06] And where can people read more about this?
[00:43:00.19 - 00:43:05.02] So in the book, of course, Scaling-ups & downs, Scale-ups & downs, it's called,
[00:43:05.02 - 00:43:06.05] Guide Your Organization.
[00:43:06.05 - 00:43:10.03] It's written by me and Gerrit de Jager, who made cartoons in it to make it a bit
[00:43:10.03 - 00:43:11.02] more fun.
[00:43:11.05 - 00:43:14.08] If you only read the cartoons, you get the main message as well.
[00:43:15.03 - 00:43:18.16] And there are, of course, I think it's also very interesting actually to read the
[00:43:18.16 - 00:43:22.10] book of the autobiography of Elon Musk.
[00:43:22.18 - 00:43:23.23] That's also very interesting.
[00:43:24.00 - 00:43:24.18] In what way?
[00:43:24.18 - 00:43:28.23] Because you said we shouldn't copy everything the...
[00:43:28.23 - 00:43:31.12] Because you can see what he does well and what he doesn't do well.
[00:43:31.12 - 00:43:35.18] And also to recognize that you're probably not the same leader and that you should
[00:43:35.18 - 00:43:39.14] not copy his behavior if you're not also the same person.
[00:43:39.14 - 00:43:40.13] Right, right.
[00:43:40.13 - 00:43:44.17] Which I tried to do and failed and thankfully I found my style.
[00:43:45.07 - 00:43:46.07] So thank you.
[00:43:46.07 - 00:43:48.12] Thank you, Wendy, for being with us.
[00:43:48.12 - 00:43:51.05] — Thank you so much, Andreas, it was really nice to be here. — Uh, I will read your book.
[00:43:51.05 - 00:44:02.12] Uh, I talk with a lot of people in HR and there's not enough of these scalable
[00:44:02.12 - 00:44:05.11] frameworks that
[00:44:06.04 - 00:44:09.04] give the practical tools you need at different stages.
[00:44:09.04 - 00:44:11.09] I absolutely love that.
[00:44:11.19 - 00:44:14.20] And thank you for everyone listening.
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[00:44:52.01 - 00:44:53.17] Perfect, thank you so much.