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Eoin Everard is a Physio, Pilates Instructor, has a PhD in Human Movement and is an Irish National Champion in the 1500m distance. On this episode, Eoin explains the difference between a Neuromuscular and Aerobic Runner including: How do we know which runner type we are? What is the key differences between groups? How can each runner type reach a performance PB? What weekly routines are different per runner type Check out Eoin's book titled: Get to the Line in the Best Shape Possible You can also send him an email: eoineverard1@gmail.com Run Smarter YouTube Channel Become a patron! Receive Run Smarter Emails Book a FREE Injury chat with Brodie Run Smarter App IOS or Android Podcast Facebook group
Expand your running knowledge, identify running misconceptions and become a faster, healthier, SMARTER runner. Let Brodie Sharpe become your new running guide as he teaches you powerful injury insights from his many years as a physiotherapist while also interviewing the best running gurus in the world. This is ideal for injured runners & runners looking for injury prevention and elevated performance. So, take full advantage by starting at season 1 where Brodie teaches you THE TOP PRINCIPLES TO OVERCOME ANY RUNNING INJURY and let’s begin your run smarter journey.
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On today's episode, neuromuscular versus aerobic runners with Owen Everard. Welcome to the Run Smarter podcast. The podcast helping you overcome your current and future running injuries by educating and transforming you into a healthier, stronger, smarter runner. If you're like me, running is life. But more often than not, injuries disrupt this lifestyle. And once you are injured, you're looking for answers. and met with bad advice and conflicting messages circulating the running community. The world shouldn't be like this. You deserve to run injury free and have access to the right information. That's why I've made it my mission, to bring clarity and control to every runner. My name is Brodie Sharp, I am a physiotherapist, a former chronic injury sufferer and your podcast host. I am excited that you have found this podcast and by default, become the Run Smarter Scholar. So let's work together to overcome your injury, restore your confidence, and start spreading the right information back into your running community. So let's begin today's lesson. I must say I have really enjoyed personally the last few run smarter episodes, the interviews I've done because it's really changed the way I've thought about running. Even after 270 odd episodes, we had Andrew talking about hydration, which was a game changer for me. We had Steph talking about the Q&A's with... collagen supplements and that sort of stuff. That's again changed the way I see or treat runners and think about running. Then we had Kevin, obviously, big game changes there in the world of pain, pain science and overcoming injuries. And now we have Owen coming on to talk about neuromuscular anaerobic runners, essentially splitting runners into two camps. changing the way they're training, changing the way they rehab, changing the way they prepare for races, based on which camp you fall into. So we're going to dive into whether you are a neuromuscular runner or an aerobic runner, exactly what the differences are, why there are differences and how you can best prepare for reducing risk of injuries, preparing for say a marathon or a 5k, no matter what type of running you are. Owen is a physio. He is in Ireland. He has a very Um, impressive background in terms of running endeavors and records and that sort of stuff, which you'll share shortly and yeah, we dive into all things, neuromuscular, anaerobic running. Oh, and thanks for joining me on the podcast today. Thanks so much for all the, uh, I've listened to a good few of your podcasts. I'm a physio myself, so, uh, get a lot out of them. Excellent. Well, um, I'm excited to dive into this topic today. Um, but before we dive into looking at the different types of runners, Do you mind just giving a brief introduction about yourself, both like you've, uh, the physio side of things, but also you've got a very interesting running career. So would you mind just telling us about that? Yeah. So I suppose running wise, um, I'm a sub four minute miler, uh, then would have moved up. So I'm kind of sub eight minutes for three K sub 14 minutes for five K and then sub 30 minutes for 10 K. So it's a nice little range, um, represented Ireland from like 800 meters. I like European senior level. 1500 meters and then 10k cross countries. So again, kind of like a good spectrum of PBs and I've run for Ireland, you know, over 10 times and I'm currently the over 35 masters European champion. Yeah. And then I am a charter physiotherapist here in Ireland and I run sports Pilates course and then I lecture here. I have a PhD in biomechanics. That's a very quick overview. Very quick, but, um, very impressive at the same time. And I guess when it comes to, um, the physio career side of things, you seem to like based on what I've seen, honing on more the Pilates side of things, is that just a particular interest or, um, something that you've had from the get go? Uh, kind of had it like, I, I would be given like specific rehabs to, um, to patients and then it would have started with a lot of them like the adherence after a while wouldn't have been great so I kind of feel like there's key areas that tend to get weak or like you know need attention in runners you know like so if you're doing like your good balance exercises your single leg deadlifts your glute work your core work you can kind of injuries, especially if you've got the initial rehabilitation. So that's where I've kind of focused on, you know, injury prevention or, um, kind of maintaining a good kind of base once people are back after injuries. And that's where I focus more on the, uh, the sports pilates. Yeah, great. Um, the main topic of today was going to be around neuromuscular runners compared to aerobic runners. And I've heard you talk about this on the strength running podcast, which I, I listen to constantly, um, very interested to dive into this. Yeah. I love Jason. I've been on his podcast a couple of times and, um, always dive, always asking some really in depth questions, some really good ones. So I'm curious to dive into this topic. Um, and I guess we start off with what, what's the difference between the two runners, what's the main characteristics that are different. So the two runners are neuromuscular runners and aerobic runners. And the difference would have been, I would say just more anecdotally myself from running with different people throughout the years. So neuromuscular runners are runners who seem to run best when they do, they need to kind of like nearly stimulate the nervous system to the type of running that they're going to actually do themselves. So, If I'm getting ready for a 10K, I need to do kind of 10K specific, like say track work or speed work, or even for a 5K or even for a marathon, I need to do like running at the pace, because without that, and I'd be a newer muscular runner, without that, the run always feels really sluggish. It feels like you can't get into the pace. So it's someone who needs to nearly practice the race pace efforts. to nearly wake up their nervous system or to be ready for races. And if they don't have that, then they don't perform as well as they can. They also, how you kind of know your normuscular runner is, races or doing repeated races doesn't seem to tire you out or affect you as much. And in fact, if you've raced, like obviously if you continue to race, everyone's going to kind of races kind of seem to bring performances on. So if you race the first time you might be sluggish, the second time you race you might feel even better, the third time you race and then the fourth time you'll be kind of peaking. That differs to what we'd call aerobic runners and aerobic runners are people who seem to do best when, if they hit the nervous system hard, like to hit like race specific efforts. So if they're doing a lot of like 10K track work, if they're getting ready for a 10K, or if they're doing 5K track work, if they're getting, or 5K specific sessions, they seem to, they do worse. And what they need is like just tempo run, tempo running off heart rate, aerobic runs, with just some light, like light strides, in order to like keep the running economy, but they need to keep the aerobic high. not tap into the, nor muscular as much. And then they seem to get the most out of it. Where it came was. Yeah. Would we go clarify on anything there? Or I'll just tell you where I kind of came from just from looking at different runners. I think that's a, I think that's really well defined. I think, talking about the neuromuscular system. So essentially what you're trying to do is have the nervous system recognize that speed for the neuromuscular runners. You're just trying to tap into that recognition and practice. I guess you could say like using that, that system in a particular speed and race and sort of recognize that. Um, whereas the aerobic runners are more favored towards like the slower stuff, the weekly mileage, building that up with slow base. And then like you said, when it comes to the speed or comes to challenging Um, with pace, then it's done in more like an incremental fashion, like with strides, something that's a little bit more shorter and shorter, less like not, like not nor muscly stimulated. And the one thing sometimes with nor muscular runners that can be, uh, misconstrued is it's not like speed, speed work. In fact, like the aerobic, the aerobic runner doing like short hills, like 15 seconds might actually go quicker. It's that you need to practice. It's like you need to practice the event. So it might be doing miles. Like for me, a normal muscular session might be like say, four by a mile close to my like say, five K pace or off like say a two minute recovery. That wouldn't be considered speed, but that's a normal muscular session because it's really about like being on the type of like running I'll need to do those intervals. Whereas If you have an, if you have an aerobic runner did the same type of session, gradually over time, they're going to start, uh, getting worse rather than being feeling like they're tuned up for a race. Yeah. And so, um, which sort of alluded to before, what I think I'm understanding is this is purely based on your experiences, looking at other runners, looking at yourself, looking at the different training types and seeing what the benefits are. Yeah, this is only something I've started to really think about, or been able to really crystallize in the last year. So I haven't done any research on this. And again, it'd be difficult. I need people to probably I haven't even thought about how I would, how you would research it. I moved to a coach, Emma Dunleavy, very good coach, but very aerobic, aerobic heavy. And I got up to very good mileage, like 80 miles. you know, per week doing a lot of aerobic, like those lactic type sessions, which would be, you know, like six by four by six minutes at lactic threshold, five by seven minutes at like marathon aerobic threshold. And I was improving, but it wasn't like I was improving as much as I thought I would. And then I went to race and I was like kind of miles off. Now in fairness, I must say to Emmet, I was like, looking at what I'd done before and then looking at this, and I was like, Emma, I need to be, I think, hitting actual intervals at the pace. Because he'd been giving me strides and giving me 200 meters quick as a top up. And I was like, it's not that. It's like, in the race, I don't have a metric that this feels like it. And I needed to practice that prior. Or when I did a few races, I can get it as well. But it's like... really like to be top end, you know, to run 13.58 as I did, I needed to practice that. So I kind of instinctively knew I needed this. And I nearly taught everybody would do good with that. And then I had a friend who's also very good runner, Brian Maher, and he'd been doing Emmett's training just the way it was always laid out. Had done really well. And I was like, he started doing some of those sessions with me and he had the opposite effect. He started like... the more we kind of tuned up, I started getting better in races and he started getting worse. And I just, I could then start, you know, I would be thinking about it. I'd started looking and been thinking, yeah, we have some people, and I can nearly name them, who were very nor muscular, they needed that type of stimulus. And then others, anytime they tried that training, which would be more like traditional running training, you know, doing your track workouts or doing your hard intervals. and then doing some aerobic would have flattened. And that can go from as low as a mile and as high as the marathon. David McCarthy, he would have come third in the NCAAs. He would have ran 355 for the mile. This is a Ford Superchute, so it was very good. Third, I think. And he would have said, can you believe that I did that just off tempo, which is threshold. And- some strides and the kind of thing, and I would have thought at the time, the kind of common conception would have been like, oh yeah, like as soon as he starts doing the more interval track work, think about what he's gonna run. But invariably he actually never ran quicker in the summer because he was an aerobic type. So while people sometimes think I do well off base training with just strides, how well I'm gonna do, when they tune up. they actually can do worse because they're more frying their nervous system. So it's just, it's just about what kind of stimulus you need. And that's a good illustration to point like people might assume like the neuromuscular runners would just favor the short stuff and the aerobic runners would just favor the long stuff. Um, but just to your point there, like aerobic runners can train themselves very much to perform very well at short distances. Jakob Ingebriton is like probably the quintessential aerobic runner and he's like 1500 meter Olympic champion You know, but like all his training is all his training is lactic Nearly all of it like even though the speeds are ridiculous He does not go into like he doesn't go into these like lactic busting sessions He just does a row. He's his aerobic is so strong the speeds we can't even fathom But his lactic threshold, like they're so big on it, like his lactic don't go above. So he's always in the aerobic zone, um, only for kind of speed work as a tweaking at the very end. And so that's 1500 meter Olympic champion, you know, three 20s, like three 27 for like speeds you can't comprehend, but he's still an aerobic runner. Excellent. Well, probably a good segue to ask why are there different runners? Like have you? since you've just witnessed and observed all these different runners responding differently to training, do you have some theories as to why some people morph into neuromusculine, some sort of favor the aerobic style? I believe you're born with it. I believe you're born either aerobic or you're neuromuscular. And it's not a thing of one being better than the other. It's just knowing what type of training stimulus will help you the most. So I think you'll know it naturally. Like if I come back, if I've been on a break, my aerobic is slow to come back. The threshold paces are slow to come back. Like I'm not coming back to aerobic or aerobic even type of runs can feel difficult. But if I had to do 200s, you are probably gonna be naturally better at like. repeated efforts just naturally. And then, like invariably say a cross country season, as I said, I've represented Ireland in 10K cross country and I've come fourth, I think that year, I came fourth in a county. So there might be like legit, like Brian is good and a guy, Thomas Hayes, but like legit, like the rest of the competition was atrocious. And then, but I've not even done well in that. And then the following two, three weeks, I beaten all the guys and then the following kind of month, I'm now like coming like top six to qualify for Ireland, even though I can't win my little county. Whereas you'll see some runners where they take a break and yet they can come back and the aerobic is quite good from the start. And yet they can kind of maintain it. So. It's just, I think it's something you naturally have. If you kind of favor just general runs, your aerobic, your lactic threshold is always quite good. You're probably more of an aerobic runner. If you are favoring like sprints or repeated efforts and the aerobic can take a while to develop, you're probably more of an aerobic runner. And it's just, it's just genetically, the key between it is when you stimulate the nervous system, is there a tendency that that will wake up a nervous system? Or is it the tendency that will essentially kind of fry the nervous system and kind of make you over trained? And that'd be the tendency to find out. Yeah. And so we're probably running on a theory that's mainly genetics. And I think people listening to this, listening to the characteristics of both, they're probably gravitating towards more one or the other. But is it as Is it clear to say that, you know, you've mentioned people are one or the other, but is it a hundred percent zero percent? Are some people like 70, 30, 50, 50 is there kind of a blend between the two? There's definitely a blend. You'll get people who are pure. Like, and even, even I find towards like injury risk. Um, you like, I have one, you're going to have people who are, if they're like a hundred zero, you're going to find that I have one guy he can always do like lactic threshold. He's. his threshold, his aerobic running is ridiculous. But if he does like kind of repeated interval work, that's where he's got to be very careful. And then other people, if they're doing those continuous long runs, it's like even their muscles need more of a break to kind of stretch out and they're fine doing like repeated intervals, but continuous long runs without a break, they're in trouble. But it's not even a thing of... as you said, because it's not like one is better than the other. It's just been under definite variance, because some people will do some aerobic and then need some intervals. And then other people will need like pure intervals. But it's just to be aware, just being aware of your scenario and just thinking like, when is it that I do best? Is it when I've off a kind of period of like base training with like lactic threshold sessions, like off heart rate, where I feel very controlled and maybe just like some light strides and I do a race and I wasn't expecting to do well and I seem to do really well and then when I get into like more sharper, you know, we could be on the track or we could be doing like kind of harder efforts and I think I'm going to do really well in the session in race and I seem to like not do well and that kind of continues. That's lending yourself towards look you're probably more aerobic. If it's like I do the kind of threshold and the race, I don't feel like I can kind of pick it up. I feel like, Oh my God, I'm like stuck in a rush. That would be, uh, and then the next race, I'm a bit better. And the next race, I'm a bit better, but I'm never, you know, doing those specific sessions. That would indicate that you're a newer muscular. Hmm. And going back to the injury side of things, like, I guess we know that some people have a different percentage of slow Twitch, fast Twitch muscle fibers. Like that's pretty much like a genetic makeup type of thing. And. I guess if you're talking about performance and also injury risk, you're, I guess, adapting your training to your default mechanics or your default, like how your body likes to function. And if you have more of that fast twitch muscle fiber, then you're sort of gearing towards more what your default, um, your default is. Um, but is there something to be said for training your weak links? Like if you don't have a lot of slow twitch muscle fibers, Could you also adapt your training a little bit to, I guess, train those slow twitch muscle fibers to sort of make your body more well-rounded, more resilient, more, you know, more variety, I guess. Yeah. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And I think, look, if I, especially if you're like, like most of us, probably like yourself and myself, it's like, look, if you're working and you. Like you mightn't have time to go to a track. So it's not a thing of like, you have to like hit specific times. This would be. For me, this would be like, if you have a period like say, in six weeks, when you know you kind of want to get into a race and race and space, if you're more muscular, then you might go to the track on like a Saturday and actually hit these weeks. But during the week then I would just, I would stay aerobic, stay on the minutes. So you still keep that variety in, but it's like, you just can't go into that. You can't go into that period of racing with just thinking you can do one race or without doing some like, efforts at that pace. Opposite then as well, like that variety, you know for injury risk is so important. When we're saying aerobic, they still need to have some of the pace in there, otherwise it will feel fast. The thing we don't want to always, for that to be a stress on the body. So, sorry, I'll go back to neuromuscular as well. So you're gonna keep in one aerobic type session and then maybe one kind of interval. If you were someone who had all the time in the world, and you were extremely neuromuscular so that like, you know, the longer running was in trouble, you would still do aerobic. Like if I'm purely neuromuscular, if I'm trying to hit a pace, so say if I want to hit a 5K, I'm basically gonna have to do some like speed work below the distance, say like a 3K type session, a hard 5K session. And then, so an easier 3K session for speed, hard kind of 5K specific session. and an easier 10K session. And if it's earlier in the season, when you want to be more aerobic, say you just need a target race. So then you would say, well, my target now, even though I'm gonna try PB in a 5K, my target is a 10K. So that would be a higher 10K session, an easier half marathon type session. So that's gonna be aerobic. And then maybe some speed work, which is gonna be a lighter kind of 5K type session. Okay, so. That's what you're gonna do for a normuscular. You always just go above and below and then one kind and hard. For aerobic, you just add, you either add strides after with like a walk back. So you're getting the speed in your legs, but it's not zapping the nervous system. Or what you can do is you can do reps, but you can't just have that like, that lactarchy, like short recovery, because that... that's going to stress you. So what you want to do is have like much longer recoveries, like a lap jog, and then you could do 400 at the pace. Because what you're trying to do is just like, get like some pacing. You are not trying to stress your body to replicate the feel of a race. Where a normal muscular runner will want to have the feel of like, yeah, this is how it's going to feel in the race. So they can like, remember that when they're in the race. If that makes sense. Yeah. And it goes back to your very first point of, you know, the neuromuscular is training. Like you're training to meet the conditions of the race. Like you're becoming familiar with the intensity and duration of that race. Yeah. And what I find so interesting about your history as well is you've trained like at the elite levels, but also, like you've said, you've used examples of very different. approaches, you've used different coaches and you've had different times off and you've almost through trial and error tweaked a whole bunch of different race preparations and then used what's, um, and had a very, you're a very good example of trying a whole bunch of different things and seeing what works for you. And then like applying that very much in detail to a race for peak performance. So, um, I do like that. I do like the fact that Not only do you have the theory and then have this applying to other runs, but it's also been applied to yourself through a lot of trial and error. But I know that with you Brody as well. It's so funny because I just, I know from listening to your podcast, it's like the way you think about things. It is funny when others, I think people who listen to podcasts can be like that because a lot of elite runners, like I would have done physio for the Australia, like the Melbourne track club when they were in. San Diego and it's just so funny that other people just, they just run, you know, like I'd be asking them like, what's your exact like nutrition that you do before a race? And it just, they wouldn't think about it. And I was like, or the warmup. I know exactly like, I'm going to do this and we do, I do like a hard 30 second effort, maybe like 20, uh, 20 minutes out or 15 minutes out because that helps with a thing called VO two kinetics. It kind of opens up, like gives you your second wind. Um, So then when you start to race, it's like a lot, it takes like six seconds to get back up to 100% VO2 max, where if you don't have that longer extended one, it can take like 30 seconds. And I'd be asking people about this. And it's like, just how little consideration they give to things I just always find so funny. Like, cause I, but then my order coach would always say, it's like, or I'd always say like, your biggest strength is always your biggest weakness. So my biggest strength was I would think about a lot of things, but that was a weakness then, cause sometimes I'd overthink. Um, where someone adds their biggest strength is they don't think. So they're just, they're just sitting Zen, but then they're not reflecting on what like, or being able to adapt. So it's like, swings and rounds. It might be a physio thing, but, um, I always like the trial and error sort of approach and I like running little experiments and clients with rehab, with performance, with my own running and that sort of stuff, but it's such a good investment. Like, Do you find it when you get injured? I find myself like, if I get an injury. it takes me longer to get back. Cause say you'll have like the control rehab, you know, like this will get me back in two weeks, but it's like, you know, when you can feel an injury, it's like such a chance then to like really experiment with things, cause you'll know how everything feels. So I'll always then, it'll take me like four weeks. I'll also be messing around for a while, like, oh, I'll try this different thing. And I can kind of banjacks myself off for a little while before I go back. Just to see if there's something new. Yeah. Well, myself, well, I haven't been injured for a long time. So, um, I'm blessed for that, but I haven't really trained very hard. I just, um, haven't really pushed myself that much for a while, but I know in the past I respond, which makes me kind of think maybe it's more on the neuromuscular side, but I respond really well to isometrics or like 10, like if I've got a tendon injury, I loaded up like slowly, heavy load more than what I would for my clients and in terms of like pain. during the exercise, like if I had an Achilles tendinopathy, I've never had it before, but if I had an Achilles tendinopathy, I would do slow eccentric loads, even if it's like a six out of 10, when usually for my clients, it'd be like a three or a four out of 10. But I respond so well to that. I bounced back so quickly. But I do feel like I'm more, I don't know, I feel like my, my tendons are really strong and they respond really well. growing up, I could usually jump really high. I, my sprints were usually like the best, like I, I'd know really that, um, fast, which sort of stuff. Yeah. Um, so maybe that's, maybe there's a correlation there, but that's sort of what I found when it comes to recovery from my injuries. Um, but I just run experiments. If I had patellofemoral pain, like usually when I do quad stretches, I respond really well to that. And so I told some of my clients, I'll try some stretches and it makes them worse. And so, you know, there is a that's only just because I've experimented on myself and, um, yeah, exactly. Yeah. It is worth it. But like I said, it's, um, especially when it comes to races and a lot of runners would be listening to this stuff and not even tried considering that there might be two options to prepare for a race and maybe just trying the one approach every single time. And hadn't even considered, maybe I'll try doing some more speed work or, you know, preparing as more of a neuromuscular runner. And even if you just run that experiment, maybe just for four to six weeks for one race, and then if you respond really favorably, how good is that for like an investment to then say, okay, maybe I'm a neuromuscular runner. And like, it's not, this is, I did it. I don't know if you put it up. We did a follow on, I think it was like for his private people. So I'll just give you the. The low down from Jason, which is like we had a couple of people who were marathon runners going like, I'm like, I totally identified like I'm a newer muscular runner, but I'm doing a marathon. How do I do it? And I think the biggest misconception that you kind of mentioned as well earlier to clarify for listeners, and I just want to clarify it again, because it does mean this is not you do 200 meters. It's the opposite. It's like, if I was doing a marathon, you can be a more muscular runner. running a marathon. So you're probably not, you're gonna have to do like workouts or sessions in your long run. That's gonna be much more beneficial for you than just doing like two and a half hours of a long run all the time. So you should do like 45 minutes of a warmup. Even if the time you're out there or the total mileage is down, you are gonna benefit so much more. So if you go 45 minutes easy, and then do a mile at marathon pace, it doesn't have to be marathon pace. Like say five seconds above marathon pace, but something intentional that's like, this is how it's gonna feel. Cause that's the other thing. It's like, you're gonna be tapered. You're gonna be, that is when I'm saying like the pace, it's the effort. You need to feel like say, like a marathon effort because a lot of times people just arbitrarily like pick. the pace I want to run this marathon in. One, they've probably never run that pace. Two, you're gonna be tapered for about two weeks. You're right now in like a heavy block. So it's like, wind your neck back in and accept that you're not gonna be right today, wouldn't run say, you know, sub three hours. So if you have a pace that's like 3.15, you're still, it'll feel like what three hours would feel like in a race. And that's the same for me. If I'm doing, you know, if I'm doing like, a sub 14, 5k that's like four 30, roughly about four 30 for per mile. But I might hit like four forties in this, in the workout. Cause that like in my track and click any, that's what like, it's going to feel like when I'm spiked up and right nutrition. So you would do, do say 45 minutes easy. And then maybe like a mile at like marathon pace and then a mile easier, steady. and doing that for like three to four miles. Or you might have a time where you do like, you know, like two minutes on, two minutes off, some kind of like stimulus in the middle of your long run and then have a cool down. That's gonna like, that's gonna work so much better for that person than just, as I said, going out and just doing constant running or just purely doing like. then you're going to have to do the aerobic, like marathon heart rates. You're going to have to do the, the lactic threshold training as well. But it's just, I would say every second week adding in like a workout to your long run, um, and not overly focusing on just having this, this long run. Uh, where you gradually say, pick up the pace and your aerobic is getting better there, you need to kind of like get used to running marathon pace. And that's what newer muster is. It's running the pace. where I think sometimes people can feel like, oh yeah, it's like one, either newer muscular doesn't quite count or doesn't dress like a half marathon or a marathon. And then two, or the second thing being like, oh yeah, I'm newer muscular, I'll just do like 200 meter sprints on a Tuesday. And then the rest of the training is the same. And wondering why it's not transferring over. It's like, well, you running 235 is in no way like replicating when you're gonna run. whatever you're going to run for like say if a three hour or three, 30 hour or four hour marathon, you know, that's the pace you need to practice. Yeah. Let's just repeat that. It's the feel of the race. You're trying to meet the circumstances, the feel of the race, which is brings me to my point. I had written down here, um, training for a marathon. Cause I know most of the listeners here would at least, um, have a marathon planned in the future or, uh, or had one in the past. I'd want to really break down what training really looks like for a neuromuscular runner preparing for a marathon and an aerobic runner preparing for a marathon. So you've just said for neuromuscular, when it comes to say the long run, maybe every two weeks to sprinkle in some miles of recognizing, okay, what is this marathon going to feel like at marathon pace and let me sprinkle that in throughout that, that long run so that they get that familiarity. Um, And not just sprinkled in, it would be like a specific session. So it would be like, uh, you know, 45, I'm just going to try to bring up the training I would like, like tech. Like we give like with the sports Pilates, I kind of gave like sample trainings for, for that, so I'm just going to bring it up right now. So we have it, but so it's like, it's just like specific, um, It's just specific sessions. So like one, one definitely just off the top of my head is like 45 minutes and then like four by a mile on, mile off, and then like a mile cool down. So it's still a long run. But it's not just say 18 miles at that easy run pace. Which how common is that? Oh, like ridiculous. Like you do need it, but it's so like, it's even look. Even for a marathon training, just the way people do it is just bananas. Like there's this so the load on a long run and then just at that pace is just so, so overvalued. It's unbelievable. Yeah. It'd be nice to also get your, uh, your take on what the rest of the week looks like for a neuromuscular runner preparing for a marathon, like I think the weekend long run that's it's quite creative. And I guess like, um, that. particular type of workout isn't that common, I guess, from what I've seen. Um, would be curious to get your feedback and sort of opinions on the rest of the week. Perfect. So the two things you can do. So I said the rest of the weeks are cause it isn't, it is quite an aerobic, uh, let me go for like a week four here. Um, yeah, it's just quite an aerobic, um, event. So you're still going to have some aerobic and as well. The other thing, as I said, is, um, like we are generally working. So I don't like people like, and you've said it as well, it's the race effort. I just like get into the feel of it. And even if you feel like you're going a bit easier, that's okay. Intentionally trying to like run the pace or like run the effort is gonna be better for your long-term than actually trying to go out and constantly run the actual pace that you're going to run. So you might have like say, 60, like say, so Monday might be just, I do for a marathon, I do it Monday would be like Pilates, just like to keep them injury free. Then you might have like, this would be like a week for 60 minutes with five by 10 second hills, either in the run or after it. So you could just include like, 10 to 20 seconds and then 40 seconds easy at the end of the run. And I would do that for aerobic or I would do it for. the neuromuscular athlete. And then you'd have three sets of seven minutes at like zone four. So off like that would be threshold with two minutes recovery. And then while the aerobic runner might just do the three by seven minutes, or we might go like five by seven minutes, the neuromuscular runner for a marathon might go seven minutes at threshold. take two minutes break and then do three by 30 seconds of a hill. Just something to vary the stimulus and get them moving and then do three sets of that. So they're doing seven minutes at like threshold and then three by 30 seconds with a jog back or a walk back, two minutes between the sets. So that's gonna take about 70 minutes. Then Thursday will be just 60 minutes easy. You're gonna still need like time on your feet. Friday would be like, you know, your. could do a gym, you could do a rest, you could do like just a myofascial release, like foam rolling, massage, whatever, you know, if you have a certain area that's tight. And then Saturday, if you're doing, you could do a session, which might be like 15 minutes easy, 40 minutes of like minute on, like a fast 10K effort, one minute normal pace. If, so, and then 15 minutes of a cool down. And then Sunday we would do like an hour 50. and you might have like some surges in that or that might just be your longer run in the week. The following week then, as we said, you could put in that type of session that we mentioned where like eight miles is easy and then last four miles is like one mile at marathon pace, one mile easy. So just like two by a hard marathon pace. And then we'll increase the miles that are hard up. you know, as we go try and get up to about like say, uh, are kind of 16 miles, you know, that would be a 12 mile. We'll go to like 13, 14. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah. You've sort of brought in a couple of general rules of principle because like you say, we're preparing for a marathon in this example, so it is a, you know, an aerobic based sort of activity. You're going to be out there for quite a while. You still need to run a long way. Like, yeah. And so you mentioned time on feet, which is good. And then you've also mentioned as a general rule, it seems like you're varying up the stimulus quite a lot. So the, the idea is to, um, like you say, trigger the nervous system and sort of get that engaged to the point where you're sort of recognizing the speed that's required on race day, but you're sort of combining that to a sort of see sawing it with also time on feet. Yeah, exactly. And even for your aerobic runner, if you're getting ready for a marathon, you'd know yourself probably like, um, All running injuries are passive injuries. Like they're all plantar fasciitis, you know, knee pain, hip pain, like patellar tendon, patellar, overuse kind of stuff. Overuse of the passive structures of the ligaments, the tendons and the joints. So even for a marathon, that's, it's the most of that. Cause the muscular system isn't being used at all. So yes, you need your Pilates or you need your kind of strength work. And then adding in even for your aerobic runner. like they could do those 30 second hills and it's more of an injury prevention thing. It's a getting different, getting muscle stimulated, getting the core working hard because like they even put it up on like a lot of the sites, you know, like the Dublin Marathon one, I don't comment a lot on Facebook just a few years ago. It's like the program they were recommending was the most, the biggest joke I've ever seen in my life. One that was like so heavily loaded to the long run. Like people are like, oh, you know, I need to get ready. So like, cause I don't want to get injured on 26 miles. It's like, and you don't think 20 miles is going to kill you. Like, you know, they're doing like four miles, six miles, four miles, and then this 20 mile run. It's like, you do not have the conditioning during the week. And then the same, it's like easy, long and easy. It's like, it's just an overload of that kind of structure. So it's like, you do need that variety and to do well, performance wise, there's generally like the guy who came up with the British Midas Club would talk about four things. He'd talk about like, you know, good speed in terms of good 10K type pace, time on feet is the second thing, good like aerobic performance, and then making sure you're practicing your kind of nutrition. Like they're the key things. So if you're only hitting time on feet, you're missing like three of the others. Yeah. Going back to this marathon example. Um, so we've sort of looked at what a neuromuscular preparation might look like. Um, how does that differ from a, a neurobe? Let's break that down and let's go like a similar week if you can, if you can pull that up so week four, Okay, so you know the way the person had it done. So the Wednesday session, which would be like three minutes at like threshold, three by 30 second hill jog back. That would be the same for the newer muscular or the aerobic. Cause we're just getting aerobic. And then the hills would still be there as a, like cause it's only 30 seconds, even if they're not doing them as hard, just intentionally trying to go a little bit quicker is just good for the body to like. vary the stimulus you're getting. However, the Saturday session would be much more likely to be five by seven minutes at 80. And again, everything I would do in aerobic would be based off a lactate. They'd have to get a lactic threshold test because they need to know what their zones are and not ever care about the pace of any run, of nearly of any run. They would just be doing like zone three which is generally about 2.2 minimals, would be their marathon pace, and they just go on the heart rates. So they would do the warmup, and rather than having to do minutes on, minutes off, which might more, similar for a newer muscular runner, they might do in that scenario, say, five by seven minutes. So it's a longer, with like 90 seconds of a steady jog. So it's a longer duration they do. but it's like less intense and it's more hitting the different aerobic zones. So that person then will have an aerobic session, sorry, a lactic threshold session on the Wednesday with a little bit of speed. The aerobic runner would then have five by seven minutes at, I'll call it marathon pace, but it's marathon heart rate. It would be what we call aerobic threshold. Yeah, and that's how they would do it. They would do... lactic threshold during the week or on the weekend, if you want to reverse it, and then some aerobic threshold. And again, then their runs, rather than having like specific mile on, mile off, they can have more of your steady long run, like just in keeping that normal kind of traditional time on feet long run. Cause they'll naturally pick it up. They'll naturally feel like they can kind of work into different zones there. That's what I find with them anyway. And again- for any event, don't get transfixed on trying to hit certain times or getting hard. Everything should be like, the 5k, 10k runner is going to roughly run the same there, like lactic threshold and aerobic threshold and just keep it on heart rates and don't be going to only go on strides or if they want to get used to, for a 1500 meters or something very fast. taking longer recoveries so that they just get used to the pace, but there's not that stress on the nervous system. It should not feel like a hard session if they're doing something at the race base. Yeah. And cause one thing you mentioned earlier is with the aerobic runners, you don't want to fry the nervous system. Um, that was sort of one of the statements that you made. And so it's sort of, the question popped in my head. Okay. What is frying the nervous system? It seems like there's kind of like this hard middle ground. that does fry the nervous system, but above that with really short fast stuff, like you talked about, like strides or hill sprints or something that sort of is really short, quick, and then if you have a long recovery to bounce back from that, that's not really frying the nervous system. It's just, um, no, that's just helping the running economy. Yeah. And that stuff is, that's essential for an aerobic runner. That's essential because one, even for injury prevention too. like they are going to be running faster in a race. So you need to have some kind of exposure to it, but it's more on the like rate of perceived exertion. Like while with the newer muscular runner, if I was doing four by a mile at like say 440, so even though my, as we said, like established, say my 5k pace might be 432 a mile, it's still like on the day that feels like what a kind of 5k pace would be like. And this has happened. I've seen this in multiple times that session, even though it's really hard, I would say, you know, a nine out of 10, a 10 out of 10 kind of hired session as a normal muscular runner, like I'm like sapped after it, but when I recover, I'm like better after that. And then I can do another one of those and like say a week's time or like 10 days time and I'm on the track again. And I seem to. be improved and it starts getting easier. And even my threshold paces seem to improve. When the aerobic runner does that similar session, they'll get away with a couple, but over time, Nick McCormack was a good guy. He went to the Olympics in 2016, I want to say, but he had been selected or 2012, I can't remember, 2012 he did, but he had been selected for the 08, like development squad in the GB team. And he went from doing purely aerobic stuff with Lindsay Dunne to going down there. And because he was good aerobically, they'd give him like eight by a K, like hard with a short recovery. And he was doing them well, but over time he then started running terribly. And it was only when he was dropped from the GB kind of squad, came back up, I was in Newcastle doing the masters, running with Lindsay, that when he started doing the aerobic stuff again, he really improved. So, The aerobic is the RP, it's the feeling of like these really hard intense sessions for an aerobic runner or a lot of races seems to make that the next races you don't run as well, you actually start like getting worse. Because they need to keep their aerobic tank topped up. That's the key for them. It's like when the tank is full, they can then like draw on the aerobic kind of fuel to hit the race hard. But if they keep kind of dipping in, that's gonna erode their aerobic base and that's the thing they need to do to do well. So like some runners, Jakob Ingebrigtsen, the aerobic runners are, when the aerobic tank is really full, they're kind of using that tank. And then as long as they have some kind of like strides or that the pace doesn't feel ridiculous, they can kind of draw them out of it. other people like myself, they need to get the engines moving and the aerobic, they can kind of grind into the lactic system and they enjoy that type of training and it seems to bring them on a lot. So yeah, it's like, it's the rate of perceived exertion with the session rather than the actual speed. Like doing 200s, doing 100 meter like quicker strides is absolutely vital. Even doing race specific efforts are fine. but you can't have it that it's like, they're grinding during the actual rep. It has to feel like easy. And you're just, all you're trying to do is like practice being comfortable at the race pace. If that's like a really long recovery that's needed. So they can feel afterwards like, oh my God, that was ridiculously hard. Their ridiculously hard sessions are, you know, like say four minutes at like LT, like a lactic threshold, two minutes at. two minutes at 80. So like that, they just go from like one heart rate zone down to the other, they're still running and they do that, say for 30 minutes. So it's more that like, oh my God, that was a long session. Still worked hard, still really worked, but you haven't gone into that kind of high VO2 max, like, you know, where you really need to be digging in. It's just more like looking at the heart rate zones. building that zone, top and off that tank. If that makes sense. I know there's a lot of analogies flying around. Yeah. And a lot of people won't get these hand gestures that you're doing on the camera as well. It makes sense to me. Um, the other question I had when you're talking about the different sessions makes me think about like warmups, like even before running takes place, if you're a neuromuscular compared to aerobic, would you need to prepare for a run? differently if you're one runner or the other. I don't necessarily think so, no. I think the key thing I would say for warmups is the main thing that people are missing is a thing called VO2 kinetics. So what essentially that is, is like there was a study that people who did like 30 seconds to 45 seconds at race pace effort, 20 to 10 to 20 minutes out before the race, then they went back on a treadmill, the people who had done that hard... hard effort and essentially got themselves breathing very hard. It only took them like six seconds to get back up to 100% for you or two max. The people who didn't do that, it took them like 40 seconds. We have that set. I don't know if you have it's like in, in like field sports, it'd be like saying, like catching your second wind. It'd be that thing of like, you know, the game starts and you go in and then the body kind of gets used to it. So that's the one thing I feel like people are missing that in warmups, I feel like the warmup, Again, judge it yourself. I would still do your, your warmup. Your, I do static stretching and then go into your dynamic block and then make sure you do, I do like one long, like 30 second effort in my kind of normal trainers that I would have warmed up in, breathing heavy. I jog back. Then I put on my shoe, my, like the racers I'm going to race in. And, uh, I go from there. I don't necessarily think there's. much difference because you're going to need like that big effort anyway. And then a few strides for both because it's not, it's only in the training that, you know, don't do yourself. Don't, don't fry that system. If you're a, if you're an aerobic runner, top up, you're thinking always of you needing to top up the aerobic tank and then using that full tank to hit a high race or your nor muscular and your, you need those race stimulus to kind of wake up your system. Hmm. You mentioned, uh, well, I guess people would naturally sort of have an intuitive sense of whether they are a neuromuscular or an aerobic runner. And a lot of this, they can pull like examples in their training of when things they haven't responded well, they have responded well. But if someone's still a little bit unsure, is there any particular tests or things that you might recommend, um, to see if they ask more in one camp compared to the other? To be fair, this is only kind of a new concept really. As I said, I only kind of had been thinking about it and then I would have talked to Jason on strength training about it. So I haven't taught of any tests. I think the way you said it is the best is for six weeks, like if you have a target 5K or 10K and you've always done the aerobic type of training, add in one session per week where you just look at interval type training and do that and see how you respond. Cause I've had people email me after that saying, yeah, I found that I went back doing much more aerobic training and I've never hit the same PBs as I did when I was hitting the workouts. And then vice versa, you might have someone that you always do track work, maybe having a, getting the lactic threshold test, which I recommend for anybody anyway, and just using heart rate zones. Like exclusively with some strides, even when people are saying, no, we need to get onto the track. Try that and see how you race then say one or two races and just judge it that way. I think that's the best way to do it. Yeah. Well said. And like I say, six weeks sounds like a lot, but not in the midst of, okay, you finally found out what type of runner you are and then you can, you know, more fall of your training for the rest of your life to that specific type. It's, it's really blink of an eye and good investment. And it's not like we're saying like, you know, go out and do handstands in your back garden for six weeks and you come back with a belly on you. Like we're saying like, worst case, you know, you go back to the other type of training and you've given yourself some kind of stimulus that you'd be surprised, you know, so you're still going to be fit. It's just you might be exactly appropriate for yourself. Yeah. As we wrap up, any other final tips, any other things that we may not have discussed or final takeaways that you want us to. It's not so funny when we sent questions over and you're like, oh God, I wonder, it's like you were a great host here. It's like, I could talk about this for another hour. Yeah, I know. I feel like, you know, you could get in. It's funny when you get into something you think, all right, this is only, you can nearly explain this in like three minutes or you can spend, say like 55 going through it. No, I think that's a good one. And I think that warm up. Tip I've just given, if people started doing that, they'd, they'd know it's a big difference. And that's one that nobody, nobody's doing that they should be doing that. Like extended stride, say 10 minutes out or 20 minutes out before you do your, your race. That's going to help your park runs big time. Yeah, absolutely. And where can people know more about you? Like where Do you have like a website or social media or anything? Yeah. Um, probably best places I have a book, like it's a free book. It's called get to the line and the best shape possible. So it's just like a collection of like articles I've written and stuff like that. So you can get that at Everard, which is E V E or A R D. Palades, P I L A T E S dot com forward slash book. It's in the show notes. People can find that. Brody absolutely love this. This is brilliant. Yeah. And more than happy to get you back on if you feel like there's another hour of content in here, cause I've had a great time chatting about it. Very practical. And one of the, some of my favorite episodes are the ones that haven't been talked about on this podcast before, which this one definitely hasn't. And it's a game changer, can be a game changer for a lot of people. And it's got a lot of practical takeaways. So thanks very much for sharing. Yeah. And if people have like questions, just like email broadly with them. or they can contact me and what we could do is like, I said, if we got a few questions, cause sometimes people are listening and going, Oh my God, in my specific scenario, like the more specific, the better. Like I'll share whatever training they want, you know, like, so it's like, Oh, I have this 10 K. What would I do? Or yeah, we can answer any, I'd love to come back on and we can just chat through. Excellent. Maybe a Q and A is on the cards. All right, Owen, thanks very much for joining me. Thank you, Brody. And that concludes another Run Smarter lesson. I hope you walk away from this episode feeling empowered and proud to be a Run Smarter scholar. Because when I think of runners like you who are listening, I think of runners who recognize the power of knowledge, who don't just learn but implement these lessons, who are done with repeating the same injury cycle over and over again, who want to take an educated, active role in their rehab, who are looking for evidence-based long-term solutions. and will not accept problematic quick fixes. And last but not least, who serve a cause bigger than themselves and pass on the right information to other runners who need it. I look forward to bringing you another episode and helping you on your Run Smarter path.