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Tap to send me your reflections ♡ My guest today is Katty Douraghy. Her memoir, The Butterfly Years: A Journey Through Grief Toward Hope, details her personal journey through grief. Katty is beautifully honest about the complexity of her experiences, and along the way, I also share some of the stories I told myself when my own mother died. It means this is another deeply tender conversation. And I offer my love and compassion to you as you listen. Self-compassion can feel particularly...
Tap to send me your reflections ♡
My guest today is Katty Douraghy.
Her memoir, The Butterfly Years: A Journey Through Grief Toward Hope, details her personal journey through grief.
Katty is beautifully honest about the complexity of her experiences, and along the way, I also share some of the stories I told myself when my own mother died. It means this is another deeply tender conversation. And I offer my love and compassion to you as you listen.
Self-compassion can feel particularly hard to access when we experience loss. But as Katty notes, 'we’re all going to grieve in our own way' and I love this recognition. We can even hold harsh self-judgment over the way we grieve (and how we see others' grief).
Loving ourselves through loss is vital.
Journaling was the path that helped Katty as she moved through the phases of her experience, and helped her access a powerful truth: “Recognising what I still had, rather than focussing on what I had lost was a turning point for me.”
And it is this practice of journalling that she shares to support others in their own journeys.
CONNECT WITH KATTY
KattyD@ArtisanCreative.com
www.ButterflyYears.com
The Butterfly Years: A Journey Through Grief Toward Hope
“It is surprising how few books there are that deal with first hand accounts of grief, especially of a parent, when it is such a universal experience. The Butterfly Years fills that gap in a beautiful, honest way.”
***
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A space to settle in and listen, and see where the episode takes you. This inspiring, reflective podcast is an invitation to travel deeper, with compassionate self-enquiry.
Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change and find a greater sense of flow. Henny believes we all hold our own answers, so there are no one-size-fits-all solutions here. This is a space to be with what’s true for you, and to grow from there.
If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you. Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds, in order to shape the changes we seek in our outer worlds.
Unknown: It's really about loss.
And how do we come to terms with
that loss? In some instances,
when it's loss of a loved one,
we don't get that back. So how
do we kind of instil hope within
us? How do we still, amidst the
darkness, find that morsel of
gratitude that we can hold on
to? And that becomes that
lifeline.
Welcome to the podcast that's
all about deepening our self
awareness with profound self
compassion. I'm Henny, I write,
coach and speak about how making
changes in our inner world can
transform how we experience our
outer world, all founded on a
bedrock of self love. Settle in
and listen and see where the
episode takes you.
Today I'm talking with Kathy
Dockery, sure if that's actually
how you say her name, but we'll
double check that when she joins
us. Kathy is an entrepreneur,
she is an author, and she's a
facilitator. Her memoir, called
the butterfly years, a journey
through grief toward hope, gives
you have a bit more of an
indication of what we'll be
talking about today. Her book
details her personal journey
through grief. And she hopes to
inspire others to work through
their grief and find hope. On
the other side. This topic is
immensely tender, of course. And
I am really looking forward to
hearing Cathy's own story and
having her share that with us
all. But also hearing what has
come out of her story. And yes,
and understanding what can come
beyond grief because of course,
so often it feels like it is the
end not only of the person or
the experience that we loved the
time of life that we loved, the
animal that we loved, Grief can
show up in so many different
ways that it feels so final, of
course, and understanding
techniques, tools, ways of
thinking ways of reflecting that
can help us find hope feels like
a really beautiful thing. And
hope, of course is one of our
main tools for maintaining a
kind of compassionate stance in
life. And I'm really looking
forward to, to exploring this
with Kathy and hearing her
wisdom and her experience. She's
also the president of artists
and creative, which is a
staffing and recruiting agency
in Los Angeles. So she's got
these two very different kind of
aspects of what she can share
with us. And my sense is that
she's very firmly in the real
world, you know, running,
running a busy business, dealing
with lots of people, and also
dealing with real life and with
the things that life can throw
at us. There is a quote from
someone about her book, The
butterfly is and this really
resonated with me. The quote
says, and it's a bit of feedback
from somebody says, It is
surprising how few books there
are that deal with first hand
accounts of grief, especially of
a parent, when it is such a
universal experience. The
butterfly years fills that gap
in a beautiful, honest way. And
and the other thing as well is
that her next book is actually a
journal, which obviously
resonates really deeply with me
because journaling is one of my
primary tools. And obviously one
of the things that I introduced
many of my clients to or
encouraged one of my clients to
practice as we're working
together coaching. So that
really resonates too. And yeah,
we'll just wait for Kathy to
join us and And I'll be back
here in a moment.
Great. So, hello again, Kathy.
is really lovely to see you. And
I know we were just saying that
this is third time lucky that
we've we've made it. So it's
yes, yeah. So I've shared with
people before, before you join
the call a little bit about your
background and about what you do
for work. And, and I've also
shared the quote that I came
across that someone wrote about
your book, The butterfly years,
and just saying, it's surprising
how few books there are that
deal with firsthand accounts of
grief. And that comment really
struck me. And, and I was
reflecting on it, I thought,
Gosh, it's so true. You know,
there are lots of books about,
about love. There are lots of
books about personal growth. But
grief can be and is such a
painful, tender topic, but I
think we often shy away from it.
And, and so I'm really grateful
that you're here to help us
explore it more fully. So I know
that that first book that you
wrote is a memoir. And what I'd
really like to do is, dive
straight into your story,
actually, and just invite you to
share with us a little bit about
what took you to writing that
book. And so, yeah, over to you,
Kathy.
Thank you. So, you're right, and
that that book is in a more, but
that wasn't my intent.
Originally, I had several losses
in a very, very short period of
time, my stepmother passed away
in January, then my father
passed away in February, then my
mother passed away in April, all
together, and then that
following couple of years, some
other people passed away, and
then my stepfather passed away.
So it was a very, I would say,
tumultuous time, as you can
imagine. And I had learned some
things about myself through this
process. And certainly, I think
journaling was a big, big part
of that, to be able to just get
my emotions out specially
because at the time, I felt that
people didn't really want to
hear it, you know, or just my
loved ones were tired of kind of
maybe hearing it again, or at
least that was a story I was
telling myself. And so
journaling ended up being a
really a lifeline just to be
able to not only get my thoughts
out, but I realised that it was
my opportunity to continue these
conversations with those who had
passed, and maybe say things
that I just hadn't had the
chance to say. So my original
intent, when I was thinking
about this idea was to create
some sort of a self help book,
some sort of a, something that I
can hands to other people to
help support them in their
journey through grief. So a
journal was what I had intended
to create initially. But I don't
think that people up there had
that idea for me at that time
yet. And anytime I would sit
down to create this journal just
it just wasn't happening. And
the stories ended up being more
of a memoir and my story and my
my mother's story. And I
struggled with it. And that's
why I took this little book took
me three years to write this
book because I was in conflict
in with what I thought was my
external desire to create. And
that was in conflict with what
my internal need was to just be
able to share this child their
story. So once that book was
done is I was able to just turn
my attention to the journal and
within a short period of time
created the journal, but the
memoir had to come first. But I
didn't realise it at the time.
So definitely
I love that reflection of that
kind of external desire and then
that internal the fire Well yes,
that's nice external desire and
the internal fire you know, the
sense of like what's really true
Driving the creative process.
And then the recognition
actually, I've just got to do
this. But first, this needs to
be expressed. Yes, in some way.
Yes. And so and so when you,
when you think about that, just
that word, grief, now you've
obviously experienced, you know,
a cascade of loss. But when you
think about grief, and maybe the
kind of definition of grief,
what what does it? What does it
mean for you? Is it is it just
the loss of people, or?
Oh, I think grief comes in so
many shapes for so many
different people. For me, the
story is about loss of people.
But there's certainly grief and
mourning, the loss of a
relationship, loss of a job. I
mean, I'm in the recruitment
space. So I see that with people
who've lost their job, or right
now we're hearing so much about
layoffs. There's definitely
grief associated with that.
Certainly, loss of a four legged
furry friend, I think it's it's
really, really impactful that
people don't put weight to some
of these losses, to my story
happens to be about loss of a
person, but I think just loss of
relationships is really about
loss. And how do we come to
terms with that loss? In some
instances, when it's loss of a
loved one, we don't get that
back. So how do we kind of
instil hope within us? How do we
still admit the darkness find
that morsel of gratitude that we
can hold on to, and that becomes
that lifeline that I mentioned,
with the journaling that really
recognising what I still had,
versus what I didn't have any
more was really the catalyst of
the transformation, or just
coming through it. I don't think
we get over loss. That's just my
personal that's just how it's
been. For me, it's been 11
years, and it still feels pretty
raw. But I do think that we
learn how to live with it, and
how to continue growing in our
lives and growing for ourselves,
even though the loss occurred.
But it took a while to realise
that it's such a, it's such an
important point. I mean, so many
important points in there, that
often we don't pay sufficient
attention to some of the griefs
that we experience in life, or,
or we don't pay sufficient
attention to the grief that
others experience. Because I
think it can be, we can get sort
of trapped or lost in the trap
of, you know, like, well, it was
it was just an animal or, Oh,
you'll get another job or there
are plenty more fish in the sea
when when a relationship ends,
you know, these kind of
platitudes that we can roll out,
that are, you know, they come
from a good place, they come
from a place of I don't want you
to be in pain. So I'm going to
say something that will stop me
feeling your pain. But actually,
what we're doing is we're
dismissing their experience,
aren't we?
Exactly. And I think we don't
realise it, in that, in that
moment of wanting to help.
There's judgement within that
judgement of you, maybe you've
grieved long enough, it's time
to get over it. And I think only
that person going through it
realises when that time is right
for them to do what it is that
they need to do. So that was an
interesting journey. You know,
there's certainly a lot of self
judgement. For me, that's part
of what I talk about. Like,
recognising like, I wasn't
grieving the same as like some
other people who are grieving.
It certainly wasn't grieving the
way for my mom the way she
grieved for her mom. And so I
had judgement in there like I
was doing was I doing it right,
by doing it enough. So I just
had to come to terms with that,
that we all are going to go
through this unfortunately, at
some point in our lives, and
that we're all going to grieve
it our way. Whatever way that
is, that's right for us and to
not allow what we may deem as
being judgement coming from
society or from our family units
or from the culture or that were
a part of, in any way, impact
that just couldn't go through
the process, whatever we need to
go
through it. Yeah. Because that I
think that's such a lovely point
as well around the culture that
we've grown up in, or the, or
the family unit, the kind of the
stories that we can carry about
how one is meant to grieve,
societally, familiarly,
culturally, whatever it might
be. And yeah, and I love your
observation of that internal
judgement of have, am I grieving
in the right way? Am I Am I
doing this too much? I remember
my my mother died seven years
ago now. And I was devastated.
utterly devastated. And, and
there was a point at which I
just thought, am I ever going to
be able to stop crying about
this? Am I ever going to reach a
point where I can, someone can
mention her name, and it's not
going to be this? This huge up
well, and see, I've got to come
from a big family. And so sort
of seeing it wasn't. The others
weren't quite having the same
response. And then wondering, Am
I milking? This was one of the
thoughts that went through my
head, am I my trying to get
attention? And the youngest,
that said, story I carry, you
know, I'm an attention seeker.
And, and so was I like, using my
mother's grief to do that? I
mean, it was. So yes, this this
place of like, coming into a
compassionate place, and being
able to recognise that our grief
is ours. We grieve our own way.
Exactly. And I'm glad you said
that just in terms of watching
others, and wondering, Am I
like, am I seeking this? Or am I
bringing this on for myself. And
I know, one of the things that
you write about is just loving
yourself. And I think that is
such a powerful statement, such
a powerful thing to remember
that, you know, just just love
ourselves and just go through
whatever it is, we need to get
the strength to go to keep
going, right. And the grief is
really a journey. And there's
many, many twists and turns and
that journey, and there may be
other people, I think, on that
road with us, but they're all in
their little cars, and they're
just going through their own
journey. And there's not a
there's not a rush to get to the
end faster than the other
person, we'll just have to take
our time, whatever that means,
as I'm listening to them also
reflecting on on something you
said about how you were grieving
for your own mother. And
recognising the complexity that
can sit within grief as well.
You know, within grief, there is
when we're very familiar with
there is sadness, and there is
pain of loss. But there can also
be anger, anger, frustration,
guilt, shame. Oh, yeah. I mean,
you know, gosh, this whole world
of emotion that can sit in
there. And I know that one of
the things that you talk about
is without judging and without
rushing, and I kind of wonder,
like, what, what, what felt
like, what aspect of the way
that you approached it taught
you that?
Well, it was not the case in the
beginning. And I think that was
what what my ended up being kind
of my goal is trying to help
other people and share that with
them. I think everybody goes
through whatever they need to go
through, but to kind of
recognise that it's okay. You
know, it's okay. That we feel
how we feel, but that that may
not be the truth forever. So for
me, in the beginning, there was
a lot of anger. My mother passed
away from lung cancer, and she
smoked to like the very last day
before she was hospitalised. And
so there was a lot of anger in
that, and I think I channelled
my anger towards her cigarettes
as a symbol of whatever was
going on. So that final year,
you know, I, I'm embarrassed to
say or I feel guilt to say that
we fought a lot over those
stupid cigarettes. Right? And
then, in hindsight, I was like,
What Why did you even do that?
Kathy? Like that didn't even
matter. that point. And my
brother also smokes. For them
that year was connection and
sitting around and having a cup
of tea in the cigarette together
and talking and bonding. And for
me, it was like, you know, just
fighting over this thing. So I
was like, You know what, I can't
change other people. And that
was the biggest lesson for me is
I can't change other people, the
only thing I can change is how
I'm reacting to what's
triggering me and negatively.
And can I learn to do that as
I'm being present with whatever
situation is happening, because
with her was too late, right?
With her, I realised that after
the fact. So I'm hoping that
others kind of realise that we
could just be present and just
be together and just have that
moment be a moment of gratitude
that we have that time together.
And just let it be. Because that
was not how I dealt with it. So
it was a big learning that came
after the fact.
I realised this might sound like
a slightly odd reflection, it
might be something that that has
already come to you. Or it might
be something very other than
that. But just as I'm listening,
I also thought if we kind of pan
back and back and back and look
at the situation that you went
through, from, you know, the
most kind of deepest, profound
perspective. Gosh, what a
parenting lesson she gave you.
Those last month months?
She Yeah. She still gives me
lessons.
And there we go. That's the
really beautiful thing, isn't
it? Gosh. Um, it's really
interesting, Kathy, I mean,
people who are listening here,
many of them will be familiar
that my, my mother also died of
cancer and, and smoked right up
to the end. And I something
inside me whispered as we knew
that she was going to die, and
at the time I, I smoked, I can't
believe I smoked. It feels
astonishing to me. But something
prompted me in that time to take
the decision to get help to stop
smoking completely, once and for
all. And thank goodness, you
know that that worked. But I
recognised almost, I suppose a
bit like when you said about
your brother kind of sitting
with her, I would have used it
as a way of I don't know. Both
sabotaging myself but also
connecting with her. And yeah,
it really. But I also your
observation about that
externalisation that we can do
where we we blame something else
for the experience. It's almost
like I think when when a loved
one is dying, or or we can see
the end of a relationship is on
its way or we know that our job
is is at risk, we have this
anticipatory grief as well. And,
and I'm not sure we pay enough
attention to that, because I
think there there is a trauma
associated with that. Because
what we don't always remember is
that we've been grieving for far
longer the pain we have been
feeling for far longer. And I
think that's what happens when
the grief occurs, the loss
occurs. For those around us,
they might sort of see well, you
know, you should have healed
from that by now. But actually,
you need, you need the equal
amount of healing time either
end. And then as you say, we
never really lost doesn't go. We
will always carry that.
Yes. Yes. I'm glad you brought
that up any because I think we
you're absolutely right. I think
our society doesn't really I
think that allows the right word
but doesn't create the space for
us to recognise that the grief
may have started many, many
years ago. I know mine did when
she first got her diagnosis. And
that was seven years prior to
her passing. So it truly is a
that A journey that we have to
go through. But then there's
other people within our
communities and families who
just process it differently. And
to just stay out of judgement
and not say, Well, you're not
grieving enough, or you're
grieving too much. You did you
not love her. Why? Why are you
not in tears? 24/7? Right, like,
no, that's not the case at all.
I remember being at a friend of
my parents who passed away when
I was in my kind of late teens,
and at their funeral, and I was
crying. I was, it felt, you
know, felt like a very pain, I
felt pain at what was happening,
you know, and somebody said to
me, I didn't think he really
liked her that much. And a that
was like, Wow, gosh, that's
someone like really calling me
out. In in that moment. I did
find her a very complex person.
But what I replied, and, and the
word sort of stayed with me was
it was I was feeling the grief
of everyone who loved her. I
think that's the other aspect of
grief is often we're not just
carrying our own grief, we're
also carrying the grief of those
we love. So it's many layered
and multi faceted. You know,
it's this very complex
structure, I think, if you're
going to draw grief wouldn't be
a very simple thing.
Oh, yes, absolutely. And I think
that just naturally as human
beings, some of us are more on
the EQ side of the equation,
maybe we just are, you know,
more empathetic, maybe we're
empaths. And maybe we just feel
where other people are coming
from and some others aren't. And
that's okay, that they're not,
but, you know, if we are, then
that's okay, that we are Yeah,
yeah, exactly. And so there was
no, yeah, I love this, the no
judgement of others, and no
judgement of ourselves. So, I
know in, in you're both in your
memoir, and in the subsequent
journal. So I know that you've
also created a journal that now
sits alongside it. You talk
about the power of positive
psychology on that journey
through grief. And, yeah, I'd
love just to sort of explore
that a little bit more, and
perhaps maybe even explain a
little bit about what positive
psychology actually is.
Absolutely. I'll give you a bit
of a precursor before we get to
that moment. I remember very,
very distinctly that night
before my mom passed, and the
day of that when she passed,
like, my senses were very
heightened. And I couldn't
figure out what was going on,
like, food tasted really good.
Like the flowers were really
bright, like grass, or the green
or the fairway, where they lived
by golf course, was really
bright in green. And it was hard
for me to recognise what was
happening and reconcile that.
There was like, all this beauty
around me and things just felt
good. And I felt alive. But
there was this big, big,
mournful situation that was
going to be happening the very
next day, we decided, based on
my mom's wishes to take her off
of life support, so I knew
exactly when she was going to be
passing. And, you know, was part
of that decision making which
talk about judgement and guilt,
like but that's a that's a
another conversation for sure.
But at the same time, I couldn't
I couldn't not see all the
beauty that was around me. I
know exactly. What is going on.
Like why? Why is so much so much
beauty and that's kind of where
the gratitude came from. How can
I be so grateful for so much
beauty around me? And especially
the flowers It was April that
she passed away so everything
was coming? Everything was alive
at that time. And so that that
sat with me and I really
couldn't figure out where that
was coming from. But that
continued that continued where
everything I did everything from
that moment onwards, just had
the had a heightened sense to
them as What if I just like woke
up and said, Oh my gosh, like,
life is short, you know, like
you do die. And so just take it
all in as much as you can as. So
I said yes to everything, I
volunteered a lot, I took on
responsibility in my business,
greater responsibility in my
business. And again, just wasn't
quite sure what was happening
until I came across this. This
concept of post traumatic growth
that I had never heard of
before, I never even knew this
concept existed, I only heard
about post traumatic stress
disorder. And this really
resonated with me. And some of
the things that they talk about
in post traumatic growth is how
people just really say yes to
life, and they step into it, and
how, you know, people volunteer
and raise funds for, let's say,
cancer research, if that's kind
of what has impacted your life
or your loved ones life, but
they really step into growth.
And it comes because of trauma.
And I realised that that was
what was happening to me, and I
just didn't have a word for it
at the time. But the minute I
came across that, and that's one
of the one of the positive
psychology tenants that they
talked about, was like, Okay, so
there is something out there,
I'm not this anomaly that think
birds are singing and flowers
are blooming at a time that I
should just be thinking of
darkness. So that was a, I
think, a big ray of hope, for me
that going through this whole
grief trauma, that there was
going to be a light in the sky,
you know, and lots and lots of
the darkness there were going to
be stars, as Emerson says in his
lovely poem. So it was there, I
just had to look for it. And
nature was a beautiful teacher,
to allow me to see it.
In nature, of course, we see the
seasons, cycling through and,
and I'm reminded that, you know,
that beautiful phrase, this too
shall pass, you know, this, the
understanding that this feeling
can change, just as things have
changed, that brought us to this
place.
Also recognising that death is a
natural part of our cycle of
life. We celebrate birth. And we
count and hide the death. But
that's just part of part of this
whole cycle. I read something
about I didn't realise that
there was such things as death,
doulas out there until long
after, and I had read something
about a death, doulas comments
and thoughts around watching
death happen. And, and just
staying in that moment of
honouring that moment of the
last breath being taken and just
being present with you know,
that seeing the end of that
cycle. And I just thought that
was such a beautiful thing that
she wrote about. Because, like,
I think, society from a society
perspective, we don't want to
deal with that. We just want a
happy ending, we want to go on
top of that pretty blue box, you
know, it's just not the case.
And life is life and death are
part of the same cycle. And if
we could learn how to honour it,
then that would be a beautiful
thing. And that's my goal. My
goal is to demystify death and
grief. And as you as you've done
here, just create an opportunity
for us to talk about it.
Yes, and to, to be able to talk
about it without coyness, you
know, without feeling as though
we can't say the words. I mean,
I think, you know, one of the
things that that often happens
when somebody suffers a loss is
that we don't talk about the
person having died, you know, we
use these euphemisms. I mean, I
just use one then suffered a
loss, you know, we use these
euphemisms, rather than really
turning towards what has
happened. And, and obviously,
the other thing that so often
happens is that people don't
talk about the person who's
died. A because we're so again,
coming normally from a place of
love, you know, not wanting to
kind of open the wound or you
know, sort of make someone feel
unhappy. Whereas actually, of
course, Often the person who has
lost somebody, not always, but
often actually welcomes the
opportunity to talk about them.
And, and that kind of resonates
with something that you said
right at the beginning of our
conversation. Actually, Kathy,
when you were talking about that
journaling gave you a mechanism
to still have conversations with
the people who had passed. And,
and that I feel, you know,
anything that that enables us to
connect in a way that feels
psychologically safe, and
supported for us can only be a
good thing. So I'd love what
what did your what kind of led
you to journaling in that way.
I always dabbled in writing here
and there. But never a never a
specific practice. Until I
journaled on and off when I went
on vacation, and trips and
things that I just didn't want
to forget about the experience
of the trip, but not so much
self reflective, it was more
about just recording things that
had happened. So it was more of
a recollection versus a
reflection part of it. And I
think, going through the loss,
and really wanting to hold on to
the memories, that's what I was
most afraid of, is that I was
going to forget about the
memories. And specifically with
my mom's loss, I was afraid that
I was only going to remember the
past year, the last year, which
was not the best year, there was
so many more 50 something years
of fantastic memories that I was
not even dealing with because
that last year was just so
tough. So that's kind of what
journaling allowed me to do is
really allowed me to reflect and
just feel, take a sense as to
what my feelings were and why I
was feeling the way I was
feeling and be able to recognise
the beauty and the gratitude and
whatever was going on, but be
able to recollect it to reflect
on some of the nicer memories.
And little by little, those are
what actually led to writing of
the book, the book is a
collection of memories that I
remember from my childhood. And
I think that's the beauty of
journaling is if we actually sit
with it, and allow it to become
a companion, you know, a safe
companion for our thoughts, and
you know, where we can, maybe we
sound crazy as we're writing it,
but that's okay, it's for us
just to get it out of our heads.
Because I do think that we tell
a lot, we make up a lot of
stories in our heads. And
sometimes that does lead to self
sabotage. So to be able to have
a place that we can actually put
it out there is a powerful tool,
it's
so powerful and just listening
to you I can feel as you're
talking the comfort that
journaling brought you. And
also, I what I'm really loving
is this sense of kind of freedom
of what to write. So I, I
naturally have a resistance to
anything that creates too tight
a container. So, with
journaling, you know that
allowing ourselves that freedom
of expression or the private
writings of the soul is is how I
often feel with my own writing
that and and I'll often have
conversations with myself, you
know, I'll or I'll ask a
question and and then I'll reply
and then I'll respond to that
and because I'm you know, I am
multiple parts there are like
all of us, you know, there are
many different parts to me and,
and even, you know, so allowing
that kind of freedom to use it
in whatever way feels most
useful for us and kind of
trusting that process. Again, I
suppose without the sort of
judgement like, Am I doing it
right? Do other people do this?
Do I sound a bit crazy? That's
okay.
For me, when I get too
emotional, my voice doesn't come
out. Like it kind of gets stuck
right here and I tried to say
something but it doesn't make
any sense and my voice It's all
squeaky and breathy. And then I
think I get frustrated because I
can't get the words out. And the
thing that frustrates the other
people that I'm trying to say
something to so writing doesn't
have any writing is just, you
know, it's just, it just flows.
And if we could just write and
not worry about editing it and
just get our free thoughts
flowing is such a powerful tool.
And for other for some art,
maybe that. Yeah, right.
painting or drawing maybe that.
But I think for me, and for you,
we I think we've seen the
powerful tool that journaling
can be. And
John journaling definitely was
one of the things that saved me.
And, you know, unlike you that
there had been a number of
different griefs that had
brought me to a place where I,
for me, it, I didn't listen
early enough and ended up very
ill. And still took a little bit
of time to like, really listen.
But when I did journaling was
something that just helped me
kind of unravel or disentangle
the the messy complexity that
was going on inside my head. And
remember, when I first kind of
realised like what journaling
was doing, because nobody really
taught me how to do it, it just,
it kind of came upon a style,
which I call flow journaling,
which sounds very similar to the
approach that you take. So I
heard you use the word flow, how
the words flow. But for me, it
often feels like Dumbledore in
Harry Potter. There's a point
where he had this concieve, I
think, where he puts the wand
against his head, and his
thoughts just kind of get out
into the pool. That for me is
like, your pen is your wand, and
it's just in the journal is the
concieve. It just has space for
all of it. Everything's welcome.
Yeah.
That's a great. Yeah. I had
forgotten about that. But yeah,
he does that and all the
thoughts come flowing out.
Yeah. And and that pool, yeah,
it has room for it all. Because
there's also sort of comes back
to that point, you were saying
earlier about how we can judge
ourselves or judge others around
us who are having a shared
experience, but in their own
way. It also it gives us a place
to voice what we're noticing,
without, even if we end up
talking about it with somebody,
it kind of gives us a place to
make sense of what we're
experiencing. And maybe that's
enough. Or maybe from there, we
then have a useful conversation
with someone or whatever it
might be. But it's, it is a
great first point of call, I
think or port of call.
I want to go back to something
that you said Henny about
people, not maybe not wanting to
bring up the person who has
died, you know, talk about them,
I found it great comfort, to
actually talk about my loved
ones. And I think similar to
what I said about a journaling
allows me to continue the
conversation talking about them
allowed me to just keep them
alive, you know, and I had come
across a quote, There was a king
Tut exhibit here in LA many
years ago, and I walked in and
there was this quote on the wall
from the Egyptian Book of the
Dead that said, you die twice,
once you physically die, and the
second time when people don't
speak your name anymore. And
that really resonated with me.
That's actually opening page of
my book. Why don't we talk about
those people that were so
important and impactful in our
lives? So I make that be a part
of I talk about my loved ones I
little pieces of clothing or
jewellery that I still have I
wear about they wear them all
the time if somebody asks me
such and such so pretty right
away I go, Oh my God, this from
my mother in law. I'm sorry, my
my stepmother. And this is what
you know, this is how she used
to wear it or this is why was
important to her. And I just
think those stories, bring these
lovely people back to life for a
moment, but they come back.
They do Oh, it's so beautiful
because it's also as honouring,
it's honouring them. And it's
honouring the experience that we
had in the way that we
experienced them. Yeah. And I
lived in Cairo for a little
while, for a couple of years in
my 20s. And there is the city of
the dead, just outside Cairo. It
is gigantic, the most enormous
cemetery. And I think it's in
Shannon esteem, but I might be,
I might be wrong in terms of the
festival, but there's one of the
festivals where families will go
and picnic on the sort of the
graves, and there'll be, you
know, lots of laughter and food
and, you know, hanging out and
the kids will be playing, and
it's this really joyful
experience a bit like Dia de los
Muertos in on whiteness in South
America, you know, the Day of
the Dead, this this idea that we
actually we remember with, with
love. It's so interesting, isn't
it? How, how so much of that can
get kind of repressed? Yes.
Because we're not taught in
maybe in some cultures. How how
to grieve? Yeah, I mean, this,
this really feels like the kind
of crux of what you're talking
about actually is teaching us
how to grieve or teaching
ourselves how to grieve?
And how to honour right? It's
like they left a big impact on
us, and how do we continue
honouring that. So a friend or
an acquaintance, I can't even
call her friends at the time.
But this one person who had read
the book and had seen me had
heard me talk about it. One day,
just out of the blue, I reached
out and asked for my address,
which is that when I send you
something, so you know, I gave
it to her. And the next next
week, this big box comes with
all the goodies that you can
create an altar for the dead.
And I think it's one of the most
precious gifts anyone has ever.
I mean, it's the most thoughtful
thing certainly that anyone has
ever thought of, to do for me.
So since then, I just took down
my altar, but it's been. So
twice, I've done it two years in
a row now, where I set up my
altar with pictures, and I serve
tea in the morning or coffee in
the morning to those who are
coffee drinkers and wine in the
afternoon. It just it becomes
for a week, this becomes you
know, an opportunity just talk
to them, you know, just drink my
tea, as you know, I don't know,
it just it makes sense. To me.
It may not make sense. But it
makes sense to me to constantly
just have this energy, it's
feels like a positive energy for
me to have up them around.
Because I'm sure they're
a that's awesome. And what an
incredible thing for someone to
have done and also that you're
you're doing it and that you're
getting such joy from it. And
and you have sparked a thought
for me, and I'm sure for many
people who are listening as
well. And, and then there's also
I just kind of, I heard not my
voice not one of my many voices.
But I was I heard a kind of
voice that I think probably
comes from my family's stories
of again, that kind of, um,
almost like what do you want to
do that for? What do you want to
prolong on? Almost like by doing
that it must be prolonging
grief, it must be prolonging
pain. So there's something so
powerful in listening to you and
recognising that we can, gosh,
this, this keeps coming up for
me again and again. These last
few weeks. I'm not surprised
that you and I are talking now.
How we can hold pain and grief
and pain and joy rather
simultaneously. We don't have
one doesn't diminish or squash
the other. We can't force our
way through pain with. I mean,
this was definitely something I
learned to do and have done for
many years. I'm going to be so
happy that nothing's ever going
to get me down. You know this
kind of I'm going to squash any
pain With my joy, and equally
this, I think, when we forget
that pain and joy can live side
by side, we can feel as though
if we let ourselves feel the
pain or feel the grief, it's
going to squash the joy. And
it's, it doesn't have to be that
way, we can hold the two things
tenderly, side by side.
I'm actually reading a book
right now I've just started,
it's maybe page 30 or so of the
book. It's called bitter sweet.
I don't know if you've heard of
that. And it speaks very much to
that it speaks about it
especially talks about
melancholy as a whole, and
sometimes music or arts and how
they can move us into this place
of not sorrow, but that we feel
a longing. And I think with
grief, there's definitely a
longing, you know, we're longing
for that person who's no longer
or that thing that's no longer.
But if we can find a mechanism
of finding that joy within it,
or celebrate it, or honour it
somehow. At least, that's how I
found that. It is bittersweet.
But the two, the joy and the
sadness do sit next to each
other. Sometimes that cup spills
over into the other.
And that it's okay. Yeah, yeah,
there's times where? Yeah, I
mean, even even now, you know,
several years on from my mother
going, you know, there'll be
times where I'll suddenly I'll
be thinking of her, and I'll get
this like, like, like a racking
sob, maybe even without tears,
but just this, like, Oh, God,
the pain of that. And I have
learned to allow it. Before I
would have tried to shove it out
of the way. Just to wave and
like, yeah, ride it, allow
ourselves to ride that, that
wave of emotion. Because some
something something is trying to
be heard, felt, add whatever it
might be?
Well, we have to allow it to
move, right otherwise.
Otherwise, I think that's where
maybe illness comes from, or it
gets stuck. And that's, that
doesn't do any of us any good.
So and I think that's why
journaling is so powerful,
because it allows the feelings
to be shared and moved. And even
if nobody else sees that it was
at least it's out of our heads.
Yeah, it's interesting, because
I was sort of thinking when we
were talking earlier that you
know, this for for some people,
it's, it's doing something
creative in some way, like, you
know, mark making or drawing,
you know, and for others, it
might be movement, but actually
just listening to you they're
really journaling is a somatic
activity. It is it is our whole
body, isn't it, we can shift
stuff. Even sitting and writing
is intensely powerful process
when we just release, whatever
wants to be written.
What's your journaling practice,
and you do it in the morning,
you do it in the evening, daily,
tend to journal in the morning,
I think. And over the years,
I've done it in different ways.
But I found my, my kind of the
most flow process is I'll
meditate before my brain has
switched on fully. And, and then
and then I'll journal so I kind
of meditate on my cushion. And
then I'll move to a really comfy
spot with a blanket around me.
And then I'll journal but I will
also an eye flow journal. So
it's a it's the only it's my
sort of way of describing I just
write I don't have paragraphs.
Quite often it will be one
sentence as well and it's just a
stream of consciousness. But I
will also if a particular thing
happens, so if something happens
between me and my husband or
something, it feels like it's
really getting in my way maybe
with my work in some way. I will
I will journal about it. But I
will journal very consciously in
a, again in that sort of flow
journaling way. So I'm not
trying to resolve the problem.
It's more, this is here. And
then seeing what, what comes up.
And what always astonishes me is
how something generally does.
And if it doesn't, I still feel
better.
Yeah. I love that you said that,
because sometimes things just
don't have resolution. Grief is
one of those things, like we can
make the person come back, you
know. So there is no writing to
solve it is just writing to
allow the emotions to, to get
out of our heads and flow. Flow
journaling,
there's a Tara Brack expression
that that she uses quite often,
which is just this, too. And
I'll quite often use it when I'm
meditating, if I find that
there's a bit of rumination
going on or something keeps
popping up is just the very
gentle reminder this to this to
as welcome. And in the same way,
I think with journaling is just
this to this emotion that has a
place so gosh, I this
conversation feels feel so rich,
and I feel like we could there's
a hot there's like this, this
other layer kind of sitting
underneath here, Kathy, maybe
maybe we have another
conversation another day and go
even deeper. Yeah, I really?
Yeah. It's just wonderful
talking with you. And a question
that I often ask my guests is,
if you saw this time in your
life, as a chapter in the book
of your life, it feels very
resonant considering what you
are offering into the world. But
if you saw this time in your
life as a chapter in your book
of life, what would the chapter
heading be?
Transformation. That's where the
butterfly theme comes from. And
I actually call it
transformation. But really is
just kind of really having to go
in to that dark place of a
chrysalis, if you will, and come
out on the other side of it a
butterfly. So that's, that's
been I'm not quite sure if I'm a
butterfly yet, but this is, this
is what I call the butterfly
years. Kind of going through
that.
No transformation. Will
transformation. Yeah. And I love
your observation that I'm not
sure I'd call myself a butterfly
yet because it's also speaks to
the, you know, that this is an
ongoing process, isn't it that
we we are all kind of endlessly
forming and growing. And and
also speaks to the wisdom that I
know is is in your two books,
and that it's not have the very
strong sense. It's not a downer,
like here's the answer. It's
here is a story. Here is a way
an invitation to explore your
own story and find your own
journey. And that that feels
like a really beautiful thing to
have created for people.
I hope so I hope that it's
supportive of what others are
going through and that offers a
glimmer of hope.
I will always say that again.
So we can do this.
So we can do and and love
ourselves
through it. Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
I will share with people in the
notes about how they can get
hold of your books, but what you
What's the what's the easiest
route for them to? To find you?
So butterfly yours is the
website,
I'll share all of that so that
people can, can connect. And and
I know that within within my
sort of community there are a
number of people who are really
who really love the whole
process of journaling. So I'm
sure there's, there's a
connection there. Okay, Kathy,
is there, what would be one? One
last thoughts that you would
share with everyone listening?
Is there one last thing?
Yes. So I think the most
powerful thing that I've learned
is to just keep the judgement at
bay, not allow that to come into
into your head. And I think that
supports everything that you
talked about, just love
yourself. Because if we could
put judgement aside and we
wouldn't be able to love
ourselves and that's the most
important thing it's just the
one of us so you have to take
care of it.
Yeah. And and I think even as I
as I hear that from you as well,
there's there's something about
even extending our love to the
part that wants to judge us
extending our love Yeah, this to
this to all right. Thank you so
much for joining and thanks for
sharing this before.
I thank you for this opportunity
to say thank you to you for
creating the space to be able to
talk about these important
things. And if I do two L's I
will absolutely put you up for a
cup of tea
and a bit of TheraBreath. Thank
you