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In this episode, Wendy and Hanna speak with Glenn Poulos, a serial entrepreneur with extensive experience growing and selling businesses. They talk about the 'Hummingbird Effect,' where small innovations in branding can lead to significant impacts across various aspects of a business. Glenn shares his journey from starting in government work to becoming a successful sales entrepreneur, culminating in his current venture in Florida.
They discuss the transformative impact of marketing strategies on business operations, leadership, and company culture. Glenn also provides valuable insights on trust-building, the importance of being nimble, and empowering teams. Tune in for practical tips and inspiring stories on achieving business success.
They discuss the transformative impact of marketing strategies on business operations, leadership, and company culture. Glenn also provides valuable insights on trust-building, the importance of being nimble, and empowering teams. Tune in for practical tips and inspiring stories on achieving business success.
00:00 Introduction and Purpose
01:09 Meet the Team and Special Guest
02:42 Glenn's Entrepreneurial Journey
09:05 The Hummingbird Effect in Business
11:33 Innovations and Adaptations
18:12 Impact on Company Culture and Morale
20:50 Lessons Learned and Advice
23:09 Building a Flexible Environment
23:34 Rapid Iteration and Feedback
24:02 Empowering Teams with Decision-Making
24:12 The Dollar Value Rule
30:38 Leadership and Decision-Making
32:28 Competing with Industry Giants
35:56 Innovation and Brand Building
38:55 The Importance of Trust in Sales
40:47 Conclusion and Book Promotion
Creators and Guests
Host
Guest
What is The Hummingbird Effect with Wendy Coulter?
Welcome to "The Hummingbird Effect," a podcast dedicated to uncovering the subtle yet powerful ways that small innovations can transform your business. Hosted by Wendy Coulter, CEO of Hummingbird Creative Group, this show delves into the stories and strategies behind successful brand building.
For over 25 years, Wendy has helped CEOs and business leaders redefine their brands through innovation and compelling narratives. In this podcast, she shares the insights and lessons learned from her extensive experience, exploring how a strong brand orientation can significantly increase the value of your business.
Each episode features engaging conversations with industry leaders, business advisors, and innovators who have harnessed the power of branding to make a substantial impact. Discover how focusing on core values, mission, and vision can drive your brand beyond mere marketing tactics, fostering a culture that resonates with your audience and enhances your business's reputation.
Inspired by the concept of the Hummingbird Effect—where small, adaptive changes lead to remarkable outcomes—this podcast aims to help you understand and implement the incremental innovations that can elevate your brand and business.
Join Wendy Coulter on "The Hummingbird Effect" and learn how to evolve your brand, attract more customers, and ultimately enhance the value of your business through strategic branding.
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[00:00:00]
Wendy: Hi everyone. I'm Wendy Coulter, and I help CEOs and marketing leaders unlock the hidden power of their brands. For years, business leaders have focused on marketing tactics, but what truly matters is building a strong brand.
Have you ever experienced a hummingbird effect, like the co-evolution of the hummingbird and the flower? This is when small innovations in branding or marketing can lead to surprisingly big results in other unrelated areas of a business, like an increased valuation, a stronger [00:01:00] culture, a need to introduce a new product, or an operational breakthrough. Welcome to the show. Thanks for being here, everyone. Um, I'm excited as always to have Hannah Jernigan with me. Hannah is my marketing strategist at Hummingbird Creative Group. Um, and great to see you today, Hannah. Good morning.
Hanna: You too. Good morning.
Wendy: Um, so we've got, um, we've got someone coming on the show today that has a lot of experience growing and selling businesses.
So I'm super excited about that today. Um, and that being said, um, he's kind of starting into a new venture and I just had a fabulous meeting with a woman who has started a skincare line. And we're helping her try to figure out some go to market strategies. Um, and Hannah is, we've just had an exciting morning in the office today because, um, Hannah [00:02:00] is newly newly engaged and so she's got that wedding on the horizon and the Fafa Biotics, um, is the name of the brand that we were talking to this morning, and the woman brought Hannah and I both, some, some new skincare. So you're gonna start getting ready
Hanna: get my glow on.
Wendy: That's right. That's right. Um, so that's, that's some exciting news today.
Um, but we're kind of in that world of new businesses getting started and talking about the future and perhaps, you know, selling someday and what that means. And so I think our guests today is, um, it's great timing. Um, and so I'd like to introduce Glen. Pulis, um, Glen is, like I said, kind of a serial entrepreneur, so welcome to the show, Glen.
Glenn Poulos: Well, thanks for having me, Wendy, and nice to see you, Hannah, and congratulations on your upcoming nuptials.[00:03:00]
And And I have some, I have some skincare issues this morning, so I could use some skincare myself, but today, but yeah, hopefully it doesn't
show up too badly on camera today.
Hanna: normally, Glen, I would have some fun facts about you, but I did get distracted when looking because you're a new puppy. It is just way too cute and I got sidetracked trying to get my own French bulldog. So, um, he has a very cute French bulldog and that's my fun fact
Wendy: Oh, I.
Glenn Poulos: I have, I have actually two French Bulldogs, Jean Jacque and Pierre. And,
Hanna: I love him even
Glenn Poulos: Yeah, and I just pray they don't enter what I call Satan mode while we're on the recording. 'cause they're quiet for hours on end and then they have a five minute spurt of absolute insanity. And Just praying for, for good, good luck.
Wendy: I wanna see insanity.
Hanna: I do.
Glenn Poulos: Oh, it's, it's funny.
Wendy: Since [00:04:00] we're on camera too, we'll just, um, you can hope to not have it 'cause I know how that is 'cause I've got a book too. And we'll all hope to see that sometime during the show today. , so tell us more about you, Glen, and your journey, um, kind of where, what's gotten you to where you are today.
And it sounds like you're on a new venture. So tell us about that.
Glenn Poulos: Yeah. So, um, essentially, you know, 40 odd years ago I started as a federal, um, public worker. Like I work for the federal government in Canada. And, um, as the story goes, my boss pulled me aside one day and he told me I wasn't really cut out for government work and that I would probably be better off in sales.
And so I actually took him at his word and, um, started looking around and ended up applying for jobs technical sales jobs, and, um, ended up leaving the government and, um, all the, you know, and everything that that means and striking out as a salesperson, right. And, [00:05:00] um, that was in. 1985 and so 40, 40 odd years ago, I guess.
And I worked for that company for about six years. And, um, I'd learned a lot, lots of great things and lots of stories. Um, it might come up later, but I wrote a book called Never Sit in the Lobby, and a lot of the lessons I, I learned in those early days are reflected in the, in the book. Um, and it's 57 tips on, on how to build a career in business and in sales.
And, um, but in 1991 I decided to that, you know, although sales can be very lucrative owning a sales company appeared from all, all glances of the owners of that business to be more lucrative than being a salesperson. So I, I started my own sales company with a couple of other guys and, um, we ran it for 15 years and in the early two thousands we sold it.
We had a nice exit and then I got a chance to actually. [00:06:00] Start, I actually was either gonna go and get another job or start another company and I, I don't think I'd ever really applied for a job. So for me it was easier just to start another business. And so in 2007, I started another sales business, um, which I ran, um, successfully until 2022, which is the year the book came out as a matter of fact.
And so I came out with a book and I sold my company in 2022, and I worked for them for three years. And that finished up in December on basically New Year's Eve of last year. And um, you know, and then it was bought by private equity and so I finished working for them, handing over the reigns of my company.
And I bought a business in Florida. I. In a different market selling to different customers, but a similar kind of business sales company. So, so the, you know, the functionality was the same, but everything else was different. You know, the target market, the products, the, everything else was different including the country.
So I'm now sell, I'm now in [00:07:00] Florida, um, instead of Canada and, um. And so now I'm on my third time. I'm not sure, both of the first two companies I ran for 15 years. I don't think I'm gonna do this one for 15 years, given I'm 62 years old now. Um, I guess it's possible, but but unlikely that I'm you know, but I'm, you know, given in another go in a different market and you know, and um, and that sort of brings me up to today.
I've been in sales my whole career. Um, building, running and operating sales businesses and, um, and then unfortunately I've been lucky enough to sell, sell them as well.
Wendy: Congratulations and congratulations on private equity. Um, a lot of people dream of that and I've seen, I've seen the good side of private equity and the bad side of private equity. And so, um, it sounds like you're out and that's probably the good side of private equity for most people. Um, but I think it's really interesting the number of [00:08:00] years you've got behind you.
'cause you and I are similar in, in that respect. Um, and how much. Sales and marketing has changed over all of these years. And so when I heard you say the name of your book was, um, don't Sit in the Lobby. I think that's what you, you, um, you said, I'm thinking to myself Wow. I actually haven't even had an opportunity to sit in the lobby in a long time in my sales cycle, but I do remember those days.
Um, and so the word lobby is different today, right? Like that might have to do with sitting on social media waiting for someone to respond to you or, you know, all different kinds of things in the world today that are so different and so. Um, I probably need to read your book though, since you only wrote it a few years ago.
It might be really, really beneficial. Um, and then I think from the sense of just being on the sales side, um, we haven't had too many people on the show who have been [00:09:00] on the sales side of things, so I think it's gonna be really interesting to hear your perspective. On a hummingbird effect. Um, and so I'm just gonna go ahead and jump in and ask you to share with us if you can think of a specific like story you can tell us, or an instance where a seemingly small change in a company's marketing or brand strategy led to a significant and positive outcome or results for the business in another area.
What do you think?
Glenn Poulos: Yeah, so that was a great question. I've been, I've been thinking of it and, um, in my, in my last company, which of course is sort of. You know, sort of top of mind. My new company, I'm still learning the ropes and the customers and so I don't have as many stories to, to relate back to. But you know, we had a marketing campaign focused on, it's called Fixed Wireless Access.
And essentially, if you think of rural communities anywhere in North America where it's hard to get. Fiber to the customer. It's hard to get internet. They often use wireless internet, of course. Now they've got the, [00:10:00] you know, the, um, direct access from Elon Musk, the satellite systems. But we sold systems that help customers get internet, right?
And the goal was simple. Generate awareness and underserved markets where fiber wasn't available. And the campaign we used, we used a, a mix of targeted ads. Um, educational content, webinars, um, all explaining, you know, and highlighting the advantages of using this technology in hard to reach areas. And what we didn't really anticipate was the ripple effect.
You know, and as interest spiked, um, our, our logistics and supply chain had to completely change the way they handled demand in these regions that we hadn't traditionally served before. And so it led to a complete rethinking of the way we, um, we handled and, and distributed products regionally, whereas we were more centralized in our approach before.
And so we had to expand partnerships with local installers and service providers. I. In order to get at this new, um, you know, [00:11:00] influx of opportunities in an area we'd never been before. So it was, it was sort of a, a great opportunity, but in a, you know, but it completely changed the way we had to do things, right?
And so a campaign that sort of started as marketing transformed, transformed the way we handled the fulfillment and the service and the, even the product packaging to make it easier to deploy for customers in those areas. And. I think it was sort of a perfect example of how marketing, you know, when it aligns with a business need can act as a catalyst for change across the entire organization.
Wendy: Can you talk a little bit, I mean this, this is in a kind of innovative space when we talk about wireless, um, but can you talk about the innovations that had to happen in order for that shift, um, to happen with the distribution?
Glenn Poulos: Yeah, I mean essentially, you know, we were, we were sort of two warehouses across on either side of the country, right? And, , we were shipping [00:12:00] to, traditionally we'd been shipping to large carriers, national carriers, like mostly cell phone companies. You know, you think of Verizon, at and t, T-Mobile, things like that, right?
But this, you know, we were now serving small communities. You know, that were rural in nature and we weren't able to, you know, the difference was we couldn't just send it from Dallas, you know, and North Carolina. I mean, we had to, we had to actually move our product and our delivery mechanisms right into these areas.
And, um. You know, into like Montana and Idaho and places like that where we were serving and we had to set up partnerships with companies that could help us to deploy, deliver, and install this. Whereas we'd never had to do that before. And before it was kind of ship it and forget it. The carriers would take care of it.
But this was kind of a different approach, hitting directly, you know, directly approaching the customers that were using the technology and they needed a certain amount of [00:13:00] handholding and the like. So that's kind of the, the difference that, that we were experiencing and how we handled it.
Wendy: Yeah, so you really had to also shift the service, the service area as well. Um, talk about how that change was implemented, um, and how you feel like you were able to achieve success.
Glenn Poulos: So the, the biggest change was that we had to we, we had to work with partners 'cause we weren't able to scale ourselves. Fast enough. Right. We were successful in different areas of the country where we weren't really sure where they would be and when they would, when they would pop up.
And so, um, before wars we were more you know, sort of vertically integrated ourself in terms of we did everything. We brought the products in. You know, we, we marketed them to the customers, we sold 'em to customers, we delivered them and what have you. But now we had to [00:14:00] quickly set up and, and create partner programs that allowed us to work with smaller, regional customer companies that had a, you know, had a stake in the community and could work with those end users on getting them up and running quickly.
And, um, and that's the biggest change was doing it internally versus using external contractors and service providers and. Guys, we call two Bobs and a truck, basically, right? And spread out across the, you know north America. So.
Wendy: So did you have to shift the marketing along the way too, um, to kind of make that all work well together since the delivery process change? And how did, did a shift occur of that as well?
Glenn Poulos: Yeah, essentially. Well, the one biggest change that comes to my mind the top of mind is that we, you know, before we were sort of a little farther up the food chain and [00:15:00] who we were dealing with, we were dealing with mainly. The carriers that were marketing to the people that maybe had cell phones and things like that.
But now with this new products and technologies, we're dealing to the user that was using it. And so, you know, our messaging had to change significantly to appeal to the actual person paying X dollars per month. For a service and, and appealing to the, you know, the issues and challenges that the, you know, John Q Public has versus a large company servicing that market.
Right. So that was a huge, um, you know, a huge learning curve for us. And we actually had to attract and. And obtain some new staff that sort of came from that space, because it's kind of, the messaging is different when you're talking to, you know, a large company versus, you know, versus the end user.
Right. And the, you know, the needs are different. The, the, the language is different. You know, you have to, um. You, you have to appeal, appeal to a very broad audience of customers. You don't know [00:16:00] who's gonna be needing your service. Right? And um, and so yeah, there was a lot of learning involved and a lot of adaptation.
Wendy: Yeah. Well and. It's like everything changed, right? As the result of this idea that we're going to go into these underserved markets there were a lot of pivots it sounds like that really had to happen. Can you talk about the bigger impact of that on the business itself? Um, the sales, the change in sales leads, engagement, um, how did it really impact.
The, the results and the metrics.
Glenn Poulos: Well, so I mean, we, as we adjusted our operations, you know, to support the demand, you know, we also had to, we also had to make sure that our messaging evolved with it, right? We didn't want to just. Generate interest. We wanted to make sure we set clear expectations and built trust within this new sort of [00:17:00] market, right?
So we had to update our messaging to highlight the improved delivery capabilities we had to. Focus on explaining them about regional support. The fact that we were now partnering with local experts, um, you know, and this made a big difference sort of in the customer confidence ultimately. And they could see we weren't just pushing products, we were investing in their success investing sort of in the community.
And we were local. We were a national company, but with a local presence. Right. And, um. You know, and making sure they had the support and the infrastructure to deploy it properly. And, um, and so yeah, I mean, those are just some of the things that come to mind
Wendy: Yeah,
Glenn Poulos: that, have changed and evolved.
Yeah, I.
Wendy: when there's so much change going on at one time. Sometimes that can be like super stressful on the culture and the team. Did you see positive outcomes though? I mean this [00:18:00] going into underserved markets, that that's really, um, not just a. It certainly wasn't just a sales play, it's actually a service, right?
It's a amazing service for the community. Um, so did you see changes and positive outcomes in terms of company culture and employee morale came out of this whole thing as well?
Glenn Poulos: So the, well, as in, I guess as the initiative took off and the demand grew, you know, we realized our team structure had to evolve with it to keep up, right? And so we expanded our sales coverage in the newly created regions or territories, as if you call it. And we had to add reps who understood the local market dynamics and could respond.
And so, you know, the. When it came to morale and culture and what have you, the, the growing of the business was some, you know, oftentimes when you're growing and adding people that kind of drives increase in morale. It's kind of the, [00:19:00] if you look at the opposite too, when you're shrinking people and, you know, shrinking your markets and stuff, I mean, obviously that's very detrimental to morale, right?
So the opposite is true, right? So as we were growing and there were new opportunities, new jobs were coming up, and some people that were formerly sort of inside workers, you know, were able to actually apply for jobs. They never, they never really thought that they would qualify for and, and, you know, sort of go into sales and, and more customer focused activities.
Right. And so I know those people were definitely happy and um, you know, and of course we had to, on the operations side. All of our operations had to grow. We had to bring in, you know, additional support for logistics, fulfillment, um, to make sure we could keep up with the volume without sacrificing delivery speed, you know, or the service quality.
Right?
Wendy: there
Are so many effects in this one, right? This story is a little different than others [00:20:00] we've heard because it's impacting so many different things
Hanna: Right.
Wendy: time. what are your, what are your thoughts
Hanna: Yeah.
Um, so just to kind of recap and bring everyone back together, you had a stable, successful way of marketing and selling to the larger companies, but then when you shifted to this more rural area plan, you had to get. Much more targeted and personal. It wasn't just the marketing that changed. You had people that you needed, the way you operated, even the way you told your story had to be different.
So with all of that in mind, what did you learn as someone that has bought and sold businesses from making the shift? How has it changed the way you approach marketing and growth today?
Glenn Poulos: Well, you know, I, I mean, I guess what I learned from the experience is that if you're not evolving and changing, you're kind of like shrinking and dying, right?[00:21:00]
If I can say it that way. Right. This, you know, the real success comes from how the rest of the business responds and adapts. Right. And, you know, you can come up with a good campaign that generates leads, but if the organization's not ready to support.
Um, you know, that interest operationally and strategically, you can really miss the boat, right, and blow a great opportunity. So, you know we were able to build and adapt our cross-functional collaboration where it was, again, it was a little bit more. Integrated. And, you know, we'd been in business a long time and we had sort of did what we did the way we did it, and we had to kind of learn new ways of doing everything.
And all the teams had to evolve and adapt and, um, measure, monitor and, you know, feedback loops and, and make sure we were doing it correctly because it really is quite a different, um, the volumes were different. You know, the, the personality of the customer was different. Literally everything was different.
Right. And so. And as I said, you know, most of what we learned came from listening to our customers and being willing to, [00:22:00] you know, pivot quickly when the doors opened. Um, even when we didn't know that this opport the opportunities were gonna come, we had to
Hanna: Yeah.
Glenn Poulos: you know, kind of very nimble, I guess is
Hanna: Okay.
Glenn Poulos: trying to say.
Right. So.
Hanna: Can you talk a little bit more about the nimbleness and kind of advice that you would give around that? Because it is, I mean, from what you're saying, you were in a pretty stable world, but you saw an opportunity and you took it and you didn't know what the outcome was gonna be, but you were willing to give it the resources to learn to grow, and that's hard for people always to do.
So can you just kind of talk about any advice you have there, or.
Glenn Poulos: Sure.
Hanna: you can encourage other people to look at those opportunities.
Glenn Poulos: for like for me, you know, being nimble and adapting sort of comes down to a few key principles, right? So one is obvious. I mean, some of these are obvious, but I'll state them. So, staying close to your customers and monitoring their market signals that they're sending you, right? You need to be constantly listening.
I love saying God [00:23:00] gave you two ears and one mouth, so you do the math right? And, um, you know, you gotta be listening twice as much as you're talking, right? If you're not in tune with that, it's hard to pivot. Right? Um, you know, you need to build an environment of flexibility, right? Where you know, where the status quo is not acceptable any longer, right?
You have to be, you know, you have to be getting ready, that you're going to be changing and you might have to change quickly. And this, the funny thing is also is that technology changes rapidly as well. So we were constantly changing and and adapting based on the technology as well. Right. You know, I guess another part is sort of rapid iteration.
You know, instead of waiting for the perfect plan, um, you know, we'd have to gather feedback, refine and deliver right. And then measure the results. You know, tweak it and then redeploy, right? It wasn't like one master plan for the year and we're gonna roll it out. You know, we would be, you know we would be doing that 12 times a year kind of a thing, right?
So rapidly [00:24:00] iterating new and evolving methodologies. And, and of course you know, the biggest sort of key to success is empowering your team to make decisions without waiting for top-down approval. And, um, you know, and you know, one of the things that it's kind of a side story, but it's sort of relevant, you know, in the company that I had sold in 20 22, 1 of the earliest rules that I created when I started the business was every person in the business, right down to people in the warehouse, people driving the tow motors.
Everyone had a dollar value. The lowest amount was a hundred dollars. But it went up from there, you know, to quite high numbers where you had a personal dollar value, where if any customer presented a problem to you and you could solve it within your dollar value, you didn't need to ask anyone. You just solved the problem, documented the, the solution, and then, and moved on.
For instance you know, a guy in shipping, he gets a call, a [00:25:00] customer's complaint. The shipment was late. It was an $89 bill, his limit was a hundred. He said, you know what? Your shipping's free, right? That kind of a thing. You know might, someone else might have a 250 or a $500 limit. You know, the product showed up.
It wasn't in the condition. They thought, you know what, we'll replace it. We have a new one dispatching today. Again, they didn't have to talk to the manager. The manager, talk to the manager, and, you know, and also, and I just found that, um, that empowerment for people was something they loved having. Right.
Yeah, and we also rewarded people on how often they were able to use that, and we bonused them for not only doing it, but you know, for the opportunity to, to deliver on customer service. We gave them additional bonuses for doing it, right, So mm-hmm.
Hanna: you have an experience that led to that, or is that just something that was passionate, you were passionate about? Like was it
Glenn Poulos: Well, it was a long time ago, so it was before podcast, but it was something like a podcast where I'd heard a guy say. Give everyone a [00:26:00] dollar value and make sure they can solve any customer problem without, even if it's five bucks, 10 bucks, a hundred bucks. Mine was a hundred bucks. But I mean, somebody told, somebody mentioned it.
I listened to it. I love the idea of it. And um, and I implemented it and I. You know, we've had it, we had it, you know, throughout the entire history of the business. And and it was, you know, it was used all the time, right? And, um, and it, you know, it gave people an an ability to solve problems, but be a part of the solution and, you know, not just say, oh, I, I don't know.
I have to talk to my manager. And those, those are such frustrating for the customers, right.
Wendy: Yeah, I think giving them the ability to own it just creates a, a great culture, but also, um, they become a part of solving problems, so
Glenn Poulos: Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Wendy: in any position when they can
Hanna: Well, and Did you find that everyone kind of had a little bit more [00:27:00] buy-in because they understood the full picture, whereas whenever they have a problem, they bring it to their manager. Their manager then takes it and resolves it. They don't know what happened.
Glenn Poulos: Right.
Hanna: why it happened. Do you feel like from the top down, everyone was just a little bit more bought in and you were able to function better as a company?
Glenn Poulos: Yeah, absolutely. And they all felt more empowered and through the empowerment led, you know, sort of a, you know, an increase in the culture. I think the cultural value of the business. Right. And morale basically. And, and I think people felt, you know, felt happier because they could solve problems and didn't need to defer, and they felt more invested in the solution because they were the ones delivering it and making decisions.
And people are, you know, tend to be, um, you know, most people are, are responsible with their own money. So when you're empower, when you're empowering them with a certain amount of money, they tend to be responsible with it.
Hanna: Right.
Glenn Poulos: wasn't, it wasn't like they were sending a hundred dollars checks out to everybody that phoned.
Right? Like there was like, what was the problem? Okay, [00:28:00] fine. You know what we, that was our part in it was, was this or that. Let, let me solve it by doing this. Right. And um, you know, so I found that they were very invested in the solution and, you know, and felt a part of it, right?
Hanna: we have a Hummingbird circle on our LinkedIn if you're. Small plug. You should, everyone should come join if you're not in there. But I had posed a question the other day to leaders of how to, or actually a [00:29:00] reminder, I guess, of. Remembering that you put these people in their places because they're good at what they do.
And if you are so caught up in what they're doing, you can't do what you do best. And I think you're a really good example of that where you've empowered your people so you could sit there and constantly look for opportunities and be able to change on a dime. Um, so can you kind of talk about the people that were able to shift with you?
Did you have a team looking for that? And then another team that was like keeping it moving, like how did you get everyone to buy in and do those quick changes?
Glenn Poulos: Well, you know, the, the, um, when I sold the company, we were we were quite large. We were over $80 million in, in business, but we were under just over 50 people, right. So there wasn't a lot of teams to be team too, right? So a lot of it was very, you know, close to the ground, right? And I mean, so like [00:30:00] for instance, I was always, you know.
Explaining to people that, you know, the, if, if the toilet was plugged, you know, in the bathroom, I often was the one that was plunging it. Right? And that problem always rose right to the top, right? I don't know why people didn't wanna solve that problem on their own. And and so. You know, it wasn't like we had a lot of like strategic teams in place you know, doing it.
But really, you know what resonates with me when you're asking me the question was that the people were leveraging what they saw by example. Right? And um, you know, one of the things I've always stressed to people is that. Whatever leadership position you're put in, even if you're the first line of defense, the, the, the, you know, the job of a leader is to make decisions, right?
And, and to guide the direction of the team. And, and so when you're put in a leadership position, make decisions. You know, don't hum and haw. Don't deflect and defer. Right? And so they would see that, they [00:31:00] would come to me with a problem and I'd say, okay, this is how we're gonna solve it. It wasn't like, oh, let me think about it and stress about it for the weekend and complain and moan and, you know, gr grumble and groan.
It would be like, okay, there's a problem. Okay, what are we gonna do? What was our partner? Let's solve it. Okay. Boom. And they're, and I, I would try to show them by example, what it means to lead and, um, you know, and be a leader in the world that you have control over. Right. And so yeah, I wish I had steering committees to help me with guide all those things, but, but we were a very, very small company and you know, we were all pretty close to the action.
Wendy: 80 million with only 50 people is impressive. Like I, I'm trying to envision that just knowing the sizes of some of the companies that we work with and the number of people that they have in place at like, let's say a $50 million level. , it's rare. And so, um, this is a little separate from Hummingbird Effect, but I think there's got to be a lesson.
Learned [00:32:00] here. Um, and, and maybe, maybe some people, you know, hang their hat on luck, but I'm pretty sure there were, there were some, um, some very intentional decisions made to be able to grow a business to that size with that few people. Can you just share a little bit about that experience? I, I think that's amazing.
Glenn Poulos: Yeah, so one of my strategies has always been, and, and again, shameless plug, but a lot of these plugs are things I'm gonna tell you now are in the book, right? And, um, but, but essentially, you know a lot of times we were competing against. The number one brand, like a global brand with a, with a nat like an international like Coke and Pepsi, right?
Everyone's heard of them, right? And or else nobody ever got fired for buying IBM or HP or something like that, right? And we were a lot of times competing against those companies, but I would only ever sell the number two brand relative to them, right? I won't sell number three or number four because the, the way the, [00:33:00] you know, the Pato principle of 80 20 works out.
The people selling the number three and the number four brand end up competing on like 4% of the business. And you know, 80% typically goes to the big guy and then 20%, you know, 80% of the next 20% kind of goes to the next. And so if I couldn't have the number one brand, I would always work on getting the number two brand.
And I always tell salespeople and other people that. You know when you take a job and you're learning the ropes in a new world, look around at your business in the first few months and figure out where are we in the pecking order of the world? Like, you know, if we make ice cream, do we have the number one or number two ice cream?
No. Then quit and go work for Baskin Robbins because it takes just as long to sell. You know, one kind is another, and Baskin Robbins is gonna get 80% of the business no matter what, right? And so you only have one, you know, you only have one life to live. And so you should always be trying to sell the best product with the highest possible [00:34:00] ratings because selling the other things takes too much time.
And there's a, there's huge, you know, and you end up losing a lot of, a lot of the time for not, because you're not good. But because of people don't trust the brand and, and you spend all your time explaining, you know, who your company is and why you make ice cream rather than, you know, talking about your brand of ice cream.
Right? Like Baskin Robbins doesn't need to justify their ice cream. Right. And, um, I'm just, that just came in my mind. I don't usually talk about ice cream, but but and so, um. You know, the and so by selling these, we would scour the world looking for the best pro possible alternatives to the number one brand in the business.
We would bring those to customers and we would present them and their unique propositions and we would, we would bring them, you know, oftentimes we are always looking for the next big thing that was coming. 'cause we, we were selling technology, right? We were selling wireless technology. [00:35:00] And so, you know, it's a rapidly evolving.
World. And so we were traveled the world and trade shows around the world looking for what's the next piece of technology? How's, you know, T-Mobile and Verizon, at and t and these companies gonna deliver better service. You know, there was two G, then 3G, then 4G, then 5G, right? We were always on the cutting edge of finding new products to help them build and deliver in those networks.
And that's, you know, that's how we did it. And, um. You know, and we were selling to large customers with large demand. And so we were able to, you know, some of our sales guys had, you know, 10 or $20 million quotas, right? And, um, you know, smaller customers might have only had a few million dollar quota or what have you, but that's how we were able.
So some guys were able to carry large quotas selling to very large companies, right? And, um, and that's how we scaled up and, um, to such a large number.
Wendy: Glen giving your, your extensive number of [00:36:00] years. Um, can you just talk a little bit more about innovation and how you've seen innovation play into brand building, um, for companies in the spaces that you've played in?
Glenn Poulos: Although I ran the company, right? So sales, marketing, it, you know, operations fi, they all reported to me, right? But I mean, my love has always sort of been at the front line of selling, right? And, um. The, you know, in brand building and things like that for me is kind of like marketing for me.
Selling is when you're in front of the customer, closing the deal. That's kind of selling. Everything else becomes marketing and, um, and so the, I often challenge customers not to, um. You know, not, not to confuse the two, right? To understand the difference between sales and marketing, and make sure that the people that you've selected for those two different departments are well aligned and they have the right person in the right seat, [00:37:00] right?
Because it takes a different kind of person to be a good marketer than a good salesperson, but you need both of them. Right. You can't, they're not, um, they can't you can't just have one and not the other. Right. So, but for me, brand building is all about being authentic and personalization, you know, storytelling and the technology that it's delivered on now is rapidly changing.
But the reason I've sort of rambled on about that other stuff before, at the, at the tail end of it, when it comes to selling, that really never changes. Right. It's person to person, developing rapport. Maybe the medium through which you're speaking might change, but honestly, if unless you're establishing genuine rapport with the customer, you probably won't get the business right, and, and I often do caution people as well as don't use technology as a crutch.
You know, use it as a tool, right? Because like a lot of salespeople, they're like, oh, why do I need to make a sales call when I can just call him on Zoom? And, and I'm [00:38:00] like, oh well, and I say, no problem. I said, what's written on his mouse pad? You know, like, who, who, what mouse pad does he have on his desk?
Right. And 'cause I was just at a customer yesterday and he had my competitor's mouse pad. So, and his coffee, his
co.
Wendy: one, aren't you?
Glenn Poulos: Yeah. Is, is coffee mug was from a different competitor and guess what? The product we're selling, they already have 10 of them from our o from another brand. So how would you know all that on Zoom?
You would never find that out. Right. And so, um, so the medium changes, you know, and the, the way we message customers and stuff changes a lot. But I find at the very tail end when you know somebody wants to make a multimillion dollar decision or even a. You know, a thousand, multi-thousand dollar decision, right?
I mean, it comes down to, you know, trust, rapport, and that people buy from people and people they trust, right? And brands they trust, you know, and, um, so.
Wendy: I think trust has been a common theme throughout this whole [00:39:00] interview, Glen, and I think that's a great thing to kind of help us wrap this up. Um. You've talked about staying close to the customers and building trust, um, and we are in such an automated world, in a world of ai, a world of all of these tools, um, and reminding people that those are tools
Glenn Poulos: Yeah.
Wendy: you know, that's not how you build trust.
You build trust in, in building those relationships. Um, Hannah, any closing
Hanna: Yeah.
Wendy: we wrap up?
Hanna: Um, so we started this conversation and we've kind of shifted past. Paths a couple times and it was really great to hear. Um, but I really took away that this wasn't just about changing your marketing or your operations. It was about leadership and how you can learn from yourself and from other leaders.
You had to create a culture that could adapt and empower your team to make quick decisions. [00:40:00] You were able to listen to your customers, which is. Always important, and you are willing to shift your strategy fast without waiting for that perfect time or the perfect number to get your attention. So all those small important shifts from the marketing, the shipping, your people added up to have a huge transformation for that business.
What, 50 people? 80 million, which is huge. Um, and then you were able to sell and go onto your next thing. So that's really the heart of. What we're doing here with the Hummingbird Effect and those small strategic changes that you're able to make and how they ripple into positive change throughout your life, your business, and everything.
So it was very nice to hear from you and learn from you today.
Glenn Poulos: Oh, thank you, Hannah. That was great.
Wendy: So Glen, before you go get, um, some ice cream
today. Because I think now that you've said Baskin Robbins a few times, you're in a be wanting that. Um, tell us more [00:41:00] about the book. Um, I wanna give you that opportunity, um, how people can find you and, and all of that good stuff as we wrap up.
Glenn Poulos: No problem. So, um, yeah, so the easiest way to get ahold of me if they want to talk to me in any way is through my LinkedIn. They can connect with me there. I'm very active there on a daily basis. Um, and put out a lot of content on LinkedIn. I have a website, glen pois.com. You can link to me, you know, to find me that way.
But you can also find me on LinkedIn. Like I said, book is available everywhere. Books are sold, and it's called Never Sit in the Lobby. And it's basically, um, a summary of all the rules that I wrote down in the 40 years of selling. Um, on how to get, how to get, act and stay in front of your customers and to be a pleasure to do business with always.
And that's the ultimate goal of the book. There's 57 tips, you know, on everything from, you know, don't never sit in the lobby to, you know, how, how to behave when you're out at an [00:42:00] expensive dinner or a casual lunch with a client. And, um, because I've seen a multitude of mistakes made, I've seen people do it the right way and the wrong way.
And I just share, I just share all the tips, um, one at a time on, on how to be a better you know brand ambassador for your company and how to be a pleasure to do business with, always. Right. And and that's my whole mantra.
Wendy: I definitely wanna read the book. Thank you so, so much. Um, it is been a pleasure to get to know you and hear your stories. Um, we really appreciate you giving us your time this morning, Lynn.
Glenn Poulos: Thanks, Wendy. Thanks, Hannah.
Wendy: And thanks to each of you who are listening today. Um, take what you've learned from Glen, all these great nuggets and go find your own hummingbird effect.[00:43:00]