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Rethink Culture is the podcast that shines the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture. Virtually all of the business leaders who make headlines today do so because of their company performance. Yet, the people and the culture of a company is at least as important as its performance. It's time that we shine the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture and are putting people and culture at the forefront.
00:00:07:01 - 00:00:18:08
Andreas
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening. Welcome to another episode of Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines a spotlight on leaders of businesses people love to work for.
00:00:18:08 - 00:00:35:14
Andreas
My name is Andreas Konstantinou. I'm your host, and I see myself as a micromanager turned servant leader who developed a passion for workplace culture. At Rethink Culture we're on a mission to help a million companies create a healthier, more fulfilling culture at work.
00:00:35:16 - 00:00:54:11
Andreas
And our latest project is the Cultural Health Score, an online service that lets you build a high-performance culture. Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming Shivani Gupta all the way from Brisbane, Australia. She is an engineer turned entrepreneur turned educator,
00:00:54:11 - 00:01:08:01
Andreas
TEDx speaker, bestselling author, and mentor for female entrepreneurs and leaders. She's presented to over 250,000 people in 19 countries, worked with 1,500 leaders, and authored eight books.
00:01:08:03 - 00:01:20:18
Andreas
She's a serial entrepreneur who has scaled many businesses to over 1 million USD and exited a business that she grew to 5 million. She's a mom, a philanthropist,
00:01:20:18 - 00:01:26:22
Andreas
meditator. She meditates a lot, and she loves an excellent coffee and chai, and
00:01:26:22 - 00:01:35:19
Andreas
one of her passions is to educate a million girls in third-world countries. So very welcome to the Rethink Culture podcast, Shivani.
00:01:35:19 - 00:01:39:00
Shivani
Thank you so much, Andreas. And thank you for that beautiful intro.
00:01:39:04 - 00:01:47:17
Andreas
So, tell us a little bit about your work. So you're a speaker, you're a coach, you run a training company.
00:01:47:17 - 00:01:54:10
Andreas
And your mission in life is to help educate girls in third-world countries.
00:01:54:10 - 00:01:55:04
Andreas
What
00:01:55:04 - 00:01:57:10
Andreas
led you to that passion and vision?
00:01:57:10 - 00:02:27:14
Shivani
Yeah. Such a great question. I grew up in India till I was 11 and then moved to Australia, and it wasn't till I got into my 20s that I started to have some recurrent memories. And when I went and sought some help, it became very evident that between the ages of six and 11, I had encountered repeated sexual abuse.
00:02:27:16 - 00:02:35:03
Shivani
And so as I got through the healing journey of that, and as I started to work through that, you know,
00:02:35:03 - 00:02:49:12
Shivani
one of the great spiritual teachers that I also had in my life, you know, we would often spend talking about why do things happen? Things happen for a reason. And not that that abuse in any way was justifiable in any way.
00:02:49:14 - 00:03:12:00
Shivani
But what it got me thinking about was, you know, what are the chances that that abuse stopped that I moved to Australia? Otherwise, perhaps it would still be continuing to this day. I don't know that. And how lucky am I to have come from a really educated family where my father, who's the youngest of nine children, if you asked him today why he moved to Australia, he would say, For me,
00:03:12:02 - 00:03:40:10
Shivani
he would say, So that Shivani can have equal opportunities as a woman so that she can study. She can marry who she wants, she can run her own business, and do other things. And so I was very blessed to have, you know, such an amazing force in my life. And I thought about how many of those girls, particularly in some of the rural villages. But there isn't the education where there is repeated, you know, abuse.
00:03:40:10 - 00:04:04:20
Shivani
And also, I guess the poorer that family is, the more likelihood is that she's married to somebody much, much older than her. And so that became a bit of a mission for that. So in the last 20-plus years, in any of the businesses, we've given away part of our profits. I've sat on a number of nonprofit boards around really looking at how we can do that.
00:04:04:20 - 00:04:29:12
Shivani
And my mission is, and I don't quite have all the answers today Andreas, but it's very important to me that as I get older and as my kids get older and become more independent, I would like to spend some more time looking at how to do that education piece for families, particularly because so much of the abuse happens in families.
00:04:29:14 - 00:04:37:03
Shivani
And really educate the kids, but also the families around how to look for signs of some of that abuse as well.
00:04:37:03 - 00:04:44:11
Andreas
So you've… You've changed tremendously as a person. And thank you for being vulnerable with your
00:04:44:11 - 00:04:45:12
Andreas
story.
00:04:45:12 - 00:04:47:19
Andreas
How do you see yourself changing as a leader?
00:04:47:19 - 00:04:49:15
Andreas
How did your leadership style change?
00:04:49:15 - 00:05:16:22
Shivani
So many times, I mean, I think for me, you know, some of the change I believe really comes from when you're really inspired by something, you go, Wow, look at that leader. And I want to be more like them. And, you know, I've had many examples of that, I know we've got the commonality of both being members in Entrepreneurs' Organization or EO, we know it. And, you know, we come across some amazing leaders that are very inspiring.
00:05:17:00 - 00:05:36:12
Shivani
But the other times, it's probably been really when I've been very challenged as a leader, you know, when I haven't been able to scale a business or I've had a lot of turnover in my business and I've lost some really key people. Or, you know, one of my businesses didn't work at all, and I had to shut that down.
00:05:36:12 - 00:06:08:05
Shivani
And I lost a lot of money in that particular business. So sometimes my leadership is really being challenged to go, well, the part that you've come up with isn't working, and you need to come up with a different way of looking at things. So, you know, I've tried to then read more, do more courses, or talk to more people to try and understand what some of the gaps that I have as a leader and how I can fulfill some of those, and other times, as I've said, I come across people and I go, wow, that is incredible.
00:06:08:05 - 00:06:15:03
Shivani
And I want to be able to copy and paste that, and I want to be able to learn that, and I want to be more of a leader like that.
00:06:15:03 - 00:06:19:03
Andreas
So who's someone you look up to? And what… What do you admire in them?
00:06:19:03 - 00:06:43:17
Shivani
Look, I've just mentioned my dad. He's the first person that often comes to mind for me. You know, I've just turned 52 Andreas, and ever since I was little, you know, my first memory of having a conversation with him, he's always treated me as an adult. You know, I could always sit down with my dad and say, Hey, my relationship isn't working, and my business isn't working.
00:06:43:17 - 00:07:11:12
Shivani
I'm not very happy about that. And about a year and a half ago, I was able to talk my parents into moving to the same city as me, and now they live about 300m away. And most days I get to see my dad. I had a walk with him this morning. It's evening here, my time. So, you know, for somebody that constantly got unconditional love, constantly got, you know, no judgment, and stays in his adult, he doesn't...
00:07:11:18 - 00:07:31:13
Shivani
Despite being my parent. He's never treated me as his child. He's treated me like somebody that's his equal. And we're friends, and we're having a conversation about it. And so these are some of the qualities I really admire in people that, irrespective of this, in this case, he's got hierarchical power, especially when I was younger, that he's never exerted.
00:07:31:13 - 00:07:44:04
Shivani
And so he's always had that, Let me try and really understand you and listen to you, and then let me know the bits of guidance that you need. And then I can talk about that. So that's
00:07:44:04 - 00:07:44:15
Shivani
pretty cool.
00:07:44:15 - 00:07:50:19
Andreas
So you referenced hierarchical power, which is probably leading by authority.
00:07:50:19 - 00:07:58:04
Andreas
Did you make a conscious transition away from leading by authority in your business? And
00:07:58:04 - 00:08:02:22
Andreas
when was that? And what… What did you, like how do you lead today, if not by authority?
00:08:02:22 - 00:08:39:02
Shivani
I noticed that even before I stepped into entrepreneurship, even when I was in the corporate world, I got to the point where I had people that were pretty good that were working with me. And for me. But I was not able to attract the people that I really wanted. Like, really wanted to come and work for me. And I remember missing out on a couple of those candidates and saying, you know, ringing them and saying, Hey, I know you've taken another job, but tell me, like, what was it about the, you know, what was it about the interview or our job or our company that just didn't appeal to you?
00:08:39:04 - 00:08:55:03
Shivani
And they said, Look, the job and the company was fine. And I remember a couple of them saying to me, I'm not sure if you would let me play in my own playground. And so whether I would give them room and space to grow
00:08:55:03 - 00:08:59:02
Shivani
and whether they would perhaps have an opinion that clashed with me.
00:08:59:04 - 00:09:17:18
Shivani
And I was a fairly young lady then, in my sort of late 20s. And I remember thinking, and I had a really great coach and a mentor to run things by as well at the time, outside of my dad. So I had, you know, some people that were professionally helping me in that area. And that was a blind spot that I had.
00:09:17:20 - 00:09:38:14
Shivani
I came across as somebody that wanted to hire really smart people, but there was an element of me that really wanted to control them, and they had to do things my way. And I didn't realize that myself. But when I did, I thought, wow, this is very interesting, and what a blind spot. So how am I going to overcome that?
00:09:38:14 - 00:10:00:03
Shivani
How am I going to actually, because I want to find people that are smarter than me, but how am I going to park my ego? How am I going to actually allow the people that are smarter than me, that everybody's going to know are smarter than me, that are going to be reporting to me, and allow them to play in the area that I'm asking them to create and do things in?
00:10:00:03 - 00:10:03:06
Shivani
And that was a pretty transformational moment for me.
00:10:03:06 - 00:10:10:04
Andreas
How do you describe yourself? Actually, even better. How do others describe you as a leader? How would you say?
00:10:10:20 - 00:10:25:23
Shivani
I hope the words that people use, and I'm thinking about my children and my husband and being a leader at home as well as a leader outside. And I always believe that you can't be one without the other. You know, very rarely do I come across people that are great at work and not great at home, or vice versa.
00:10:26:01 - 00:10:48:22
Shivani
I think great leaders are just great leaders. I hope they would use words like, She's open, and She has an open heart and an open mind. She's a great learner. She's kind, but she's got some pretty strong boundaries at the same time. So if you cross some boundaries, you will... We would know about it. We will have some tough conversations around it.
00:10:49:00 - 00:11:10:03
Shivani
I will be very clear about what those boundaries are, whether it's with my children or an employee. So I hope that people would say that she's not always the easiest person that I've worked with or for or lived in a family with. But it's pretty clear about who she is. There's an authenticity about it, and I know where I stand.
00:11:10:03 - 00:11:11:13
Shivani
That's what I would hope that I would say.
00:11:11:13 - 00:11:43:12
Andreas
So I'd love to dig into the tough, tough conversations' bit. But before that, you raised a very interesting point that you can't be a good leader at work and a bad leader at home. Or vice versa. What's your observation about people being conscious about, you know, leadership at home and leadership at work? Are people transitioning from one to the other? Can you be trained to be a good leader at home or a good leader at work?
00:11:43:12 - 00:11:44:11
Andreas
What's your perspective?
00:11:44:11 - 00:12:06:00
Shivani
Yeah. Such a... You ask the right questions. I think there's this notion of, you know, are leaders made, or are they born? And some people, you know, have that ability, and they've got those leadership qualities. But most of leadership, I believe, can be learned. You can train yourself; you can discipline yourself. You can practice it over and over again.
00:12:06:02 - 00:12:23:11
Shivani
And, so to me, you know, when people say, I feel myself at work; I'm a great leader at work, but I'm not a great leader at home. You know, my question that always goes through is, well, which is the real you? Like, are you the real you at work, or are you the real you at home? Right? Or vice versa.
00:12:23:12 - 00:12:46:23
Shivani
I feel, you know, I just don't take any leadership at my home because I, you know, spend all of that. Well, that's really interesting too. So, you know, I believe, Andreas, that we carry masks, and we all wear masks to protect ourselves. We wear masks to survive. At times they become habits. But to become really great leaders, we have to learn to take some of those masks off, both at home and in the workplace.
00:12:47:01 - 00:13:09:21
Shivani
And that's hard, because then people see through us, and they look into our souls, and they go, Maybe you're not that good at this particular thing. And that that's a hard thing. You know, my, I have lots of blind spots, and with two teenagers in the house, I can tell you that feedback is not even seeked. But I get constant feedback as a mom around my leadership at home,
00:13:09:21 - 00:13:25:00
Shivani
and I have to kind of go rather than sort of argue back, you know, they're not three and four anymore; they're 15 and 16. So I've kind of had to look at myself, and go, I think there is some truth in that, you know, there is some truth in that. And you're right, I think I am part of that.
00:13:25:00 - 00:13:47:20
Shivani
So learning to have those tougher conversations and putting a mirror to yourself is probably where the growth is. But it's not easy, you know. I mean, I know it's necessary to lead that authentic life, but I don't find that always very easy with my kids or my employees in showing that. I mean, I've had employees say, "Look, we're really struggling to get the great people.
00:13:47:20 - 00:14:09:20
Shivani
What is the bottleneck here? And I remember one of my managers saying to me, Shivani, the bottleneck is you. You know, you, I know that you want, from a cultural perspective, to bring the right people in, but we are growing too fast. You need to just let us make those decisions. You need to trust us. And then I remember her going,
00:14:09:22 - 00:14:27:02
Shivani
I'm sorry if I've overstepped the mark. And initially I was really angry. I was like, you know, how dare you? You know, da na na na na. And then I was like, oh my goodness, I'm the bottleneck right here. And I said, So let me digest that. That was pretty harsh feedback. I wasn't kind of ready for that. But you're right.
00:14:27:02 - 00:14:45:17
Shivani
And thank you for being courageous. I appreciate it, and then when I got out of the way, the business started to scale better. We hired bright people without me involved at all in that part of the business. So, lots of learnings, you know, in terms of being authentic and taking that feedback.
00:14:46:03 - 00:15:05:21
Andreas
So many questions based on that. So, are you conscious of your values when you decide how... what is the authentic you? Like, how do you figure out who you are as a leader so that you can bring your best self to work and, you know, you can shine?
00:15:07:10 - 00:15:30:13
Shivani
I have a healthy sense of ego. And when my ego takes over, I find it difficult to see my values. And somebody once described it to me. It was actually, one of my meditation teachers. And they said, you know, imagine your ego is, like a dog. And imagine if it's a little Chihuahua on a leash.
00:15:30:15 - 00:15:55:07
Shivani
And if you can control that dog, then you'll walk in the door, you're running the show. And if it's a really giant dog and you have no control over it, and literally you are running after the dog, then the dog is running you. And so I find it a lot easier to see my values when I'm really aware of my ego and I can manage it,
00:15:55:07 - 00:16:24:01
Shivani
and for me, being a meditator, when I'm spending doing my little rituals and my ten ten tens every day and doing my meditation, I notice that I'm much more aware of my values, am much more aware of other people around me and their feelings, and how to manage both, but at different times I have not been aware, and my ego has run the show, and I have not behaved very well.
00:16:24:01 - 00:16:42:11
Shivani
You know, whether it's again with my family or with employees or other places and they've been, they've been pretty, pretty tough, embarrassing points. And I noticed that when my ego's running it, I am not connected to my values anymore because I'm no longer connected to myself. And, my ego is just running, running the show.
00:16:42:11 - 00:17:11:08
Andreas
Fascinating. It reminds me of this paradigm. The rider or the horse. So there's this EOer, Rick Sapio, who passed away recently. He was a great servant leader. One of the stories he mentioned is about the rider or the horse. And he said that in life, you can choose to be the rider or the horse, and whatever you choose, life will become the other thing.
00:17:11:10 - 00:17:50:05
Andreas
So if you choose to become the horse, life becomes the rider. And life will take you wherever it wants to. But if you choose to be the rider, then life becomes the horse, and you can take it wherever you want to go. And essentially designing your life and designing what kind of person you want to be and what kind of values you want to reflect. And how do you want to carry these in your life and in your business and with the people around you and your employees. So the, the, the art of, of self-awareness, I think, is
00:17:50:05 - 00:18:03:04
Andreas
paramount and a prerequisite for being a good leader and a conscious leader. So back, back to you. You mentioned tough conversations.
00:18:03:06 - 00:18:18:11
Andreas
And I know that you also have a training company, and one of the training courses is about helping managers have tough, tough conversations. So what is it that stops us from having tough conversations, and why is it important to have one?
00:18:18:11 - 00:18:42:07
Shivani
Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, different texts and different philosophies talk about that. We're either operating out of fear or we're operating out of love. And I think if you look at the role of the manager who's getting instructions from the executive and perhaps the board, and then they've got the people that are reporting to them, so often they are the, they are kind of that meat in the sandwich,
00:18:42:09 - 00:19:04:00
Shivani
they're kind of stuck in the middle, kind of being squished at both ends. And so, when they're really fearful about the repercussions of raising a tough conversation, either being rejected or being yelled at or people disagreeing with them, you know, a whole heap of fears. But, but essentially, that's kind of the overall thing. Then it becomes really difficult.
00:19:04:00 - 00:19:30:07
Shivani
And in my experience, most people avoid the tough conversations. And, you know, people think that as a result of the tough conversations sometimes those relationships might break. But people, as we know, Andreas, that, you know, go to that trouble of having the tough conversations, they often become the parts that strengthen that relationship, because that means we can talk about tough things and we can move on.
00:19:30:07 - 00:19:48:02
Shivani
And so I felt that there was this real need that even though we expect our managers to do that and they have to have a lot of tough conversations, as I shared with you, sometimes with their, the person that they report to, in that case, it was me, or for their other people, we need to really skill them,
00:19:48:02 - 00:20:21:09
Shivani
we need to train them and show them ways that they can manage those conversations and do that so that there might still be fear. But they can manage those fears, and they've got some skills and methodologies that they can put into practice. So that was the reason that, that, you know, part was created, and, and, you know, as they do more of it, some of their fear subsides because they were going, okay, now I've got a bit of a, a hang of how I actually can have these conversations.
00:20:21:09 - 00:20:41:14
Shivani
So they learn that skill, and hopefully they might move out of that fear knowing that they'll be supported. And, if they learn how to have those conversations with love, you know, like we say to people in our families, We love you. And, you know, people find it really strange to say in the workplaces, you know, use the word love.
00:20:41:16 - 00:20:59:03
Shivani
And, and I think it's really important, you know, I wrote a book called Tough Love for Leaders. I think we really need to. We might not tell people we love them, but we really need to come from that space of love. And so when we come from the space of love to have the tough conversations, it's a different energy. It's a different game.
00:20:59:04 - 00:21:11:06
Shivani
People that are on the receiving end of it feel it a lot differently. And so really teaching managers to do that better, I think you create really, really great workplaces.
00:21:11:06 - 00:21:27:17
Andreas
And something else I know you teach people is to give regular, direct, and frequent feedback, as opposed to waiting for the performance review at the end of the year or the six months. Why? Why is that important? And how can people practice that?
00:21:27:17 - 00:22:04:10
Shivani
I think feedback is one of the best ways to create an extraordinary culture. And when we get into the habits of doing it, not once a year, not once a quarter, not once a month, you know, when we just get into that habit of just giving that feedback, and there are some stats and research that talks about this 4 to 1 ratio, that if we can catch people doing something well when they're doing something great and we acknowledge them or we praise them in a 4 to 1 ratio, people already sit up when you want to give them that one piece of constructive feedback,
00:22:04:12 - 00:22:28:21
Shivani
so constantly giving people feedback, catching them doing something right, where people go, wow, like, my colleague, my manager, and whoever sees me in terms of being able to do that is so important. I wrote this piece once and I wrote about the book that I believe people are always looking for three things. They look for something to believe in, which is the vision.
00:22:28:23 - 00:22:53:13
Shivani
They look for someone to believe in, which is a leader, and then they're looking for someone to believe in them, which is their self-worth. And so I think feedback really, really encapsulates that last bit, which is really where people are seen and they're acknowledged, as every human being has that need. I think it's such a great way to build culture up.
00:22:53:13 - 00:23:02:01
Shivani
And I see this constantly with teams and organizations that adopt that, of giving regular feedback, that they do fast-track their culture a lot more.
00:23:02:01 - 00:23:04:02
Andreas
And
00:23:04:04 - 00:23:13:12
Andreas
what is the role of a manager as a coach in helping people feel safe and giving people
00:23:13:12 - 00:23:17:06
Andreas
the space and the direction to grow?
00:23:17:06 - 00:23:18:04
Andreas
And is that
00:23:18:04 - 00:23:24:03
Andreas
really practiced by managers today, or is it something that is missing?
00:23:24:07 - 00:23:49:05
Shivani
The role of manager is really tough because they wear so many hats. We think they wear this word "manager hat" but at times they wear a "trainer hat" because they're training people. At times they wear a "counseling hat" because they're counseling people through a bit of a challenge. I believe that when we can train our managers to spend most of their time coaching, if they're counseling, great. Step back into coaching.
00:23:49:07 - 00:24:09:04
Shivani
If they're training, great. Step back into coaching. If they're managing, great. Step back into the coaching. Because what we're then doing is we're creating people that are not dependent on us. We're creating people to become independent thinkers and doers and empowered enough to be able to do their roles really well. And so I think the role of the manager is challenging.
00:24:09:04 - 00:24:33:22
Shivani
But when they understand the different hats that they wear, identified perhaps what percentage of time they're spending wearing those hats, and really then work out a way that they can spend most of their time, whether that's 70 or 80%, most of their time is wearing the coach hat, again, it frees the manager up, always not being that dependent person, answering, problem-solving all the time.
00:24:33:23 - 00:24:37:12
Shivani
So then we actually free that manager up to doing other things as well.
00:24:38:02 - 00:24:46:08
Andreas
When was a moment in your life when you realized you made a leadership mistake as a manager or as a leader, where you
00:24:46:08 - 00:24:48:14
Andreas
realized that you had to change your ways?
00:24:48:14 - 00:25:14:10
Shivani
So many times. So many times. One of the examples coming into my mind is, you know, in work, we've had a couple of really great people resign and leave to go elsewhere. And, you know, again, if I can choose my ego kicked in going, all right, good luck. You know, I know that organization.
00:25:14:10 - 00:25:52:04
Shivani
It's not going to go that well. And, you know, rather than really try and understand through a better HR human resource process to do an exit interview, really understand what it is that was not, we're not doing very well. And at the time, I certainly didn't have the data or the statistics to work out how expensive it is to actually, not only through the recruitment process but to train somebody up to the level that this other person was, or other people were that were pretty proficient in their roles, you know, can be somewhere between 2 and 5 times their salary by the time we get them up to the same level.
00:25:52:06 - 00:26:18:09
Shivani
So, that was pretty arrogant. And I realized that that was, you know, a pretty big issue. And so I think when I looked at that, it wasn't just a people issue. It was the fact that my mind was a bit closed about not learning a new way. And so, you know, the word that was introduced to me by somebody in EO was "shoshin," and when I really looked into the word, it was "open heart and open mind."
00:26:18:11 - 00:26:33:06
Shivani
So it wasn't just an open mind, it was when we approached things with an open heart and an open mind, and we know that if we just approach something with our head, it's not great. When we approach something just with our heart, it's not great. But when we can do both and connect the head and the heart, it's pretty powerful.
00:26:33:06 - 00:26:48:19
Shivani
And I wasn't using any of that in my leadership. I was very head-based, and really making decisions better from the head and the heart and now the gut as we talk about it and making sure that those things are aligned is certainly helping me, you know, become a better leader.
00:26:50:07 - 00:27:06:10
Andreas
What do you think female leaders are very good at? And what do they need to develop more? I'm overgeneralizing. But if we look at your experience in working with female leaders, how... you know, what's your observation?
00:27:06:10 - 00:27:42:06
Shivani
Yeah. Such a great question. I know we're generalizing, so when I generalize most female leaders I've come across, are more empathetic. And in that empathy, maybe the percentage of head and heart, maybe there's a lot more heart. And sometimes that decision-making is, you know, down there. So when I've come across, for example, a female manager, when we were talking about the example earlier, you know, they've stayed much more time counseling somebody because of their empathic nature rather than actually go, okay, so what are we going to now do?
00:27:42:07 - 00:28:07:01
Shivani
What do you want to do now? How can I help you in really stepping back into that coaching part, which then brings you back into your head? The other thing that I've noticed female leaders do is that their communication, and again, I'm generalizing, tends to be better. And yes, you could take it back to women use more words, etc., but being a little bit more emotionally aware generally, the communication is a lot more open.
00:28:07:03 - 00:28:27:10
Shivani
You know, the open-door policy type stuff works a little bit better. And I have seen some terrible female leaders, and I've seen some exceptional male leaders and vice versa, and some of them through clients and some of them in my own teams. And so it is a generalization, but I do see them communicating generally pretty well.
00:28:28:09 - 00:28:56:18
Andreas
And do you resonate with this concept of male energy versus female energy and how the two need to be balanced? So you mentioned having tough conversations. I consider that male energy, or you mentioned having intuition and empathy, which I consider female energy. How do you balance the two, and how have you observed that people balance those two?
00:28:56:20 - 00:29:19:00
Shivani
Yeah. I was trained, you know, as I started my career as an engineer Andreas, as we were talking about, I was trained not to show any of my feminine energy because that was weak and you were not be going to be successful in the masculine world, in a male-dominated environment. So, I remember for me, I shut that down for a long time, and that was the safe way.
00:29:19:02 - 00:29:41:11
Shivani
Stay in your masculine energy, keep being successful, keep producing. But I was out of whack, and I noticed this also with, you know, perhaps people with male energy and people with female energy, that it's over one way. So, you know, I believe that finding that balance, as I was talking about that tough love piece.
00:29:41:11 - 00:30:02:10
Shivani
We want to be tough, but we want to have love as well. It is really important. Some people call it yin yang, some people call it chi, some people call it prana. So, you know, there's different cultures that have talked about different energies and masculine energies, but most of them talked about some balance. And I always think you've got to kind of, whether you want to use a scale out of ten, you know.
00:30:02:10 - 00:30:22:17
Shivani
So for me, when I first started my career as an engineer, I was sitting at 9 or 10, 10 being really masculine energy. And the other side of the scale perhaps being really feminine energy, and you kind of weigh, depending on what the situation is. But I think if you're aware of where you are and you're also aware of what you need to bring in, it's really important.
00:30:22:19 - 00:30:47:07
Shivani
Really important. You know, I've got a son that's struggling a little bit through school at the moment. He's been through some bullying, and so bringing my masculine energy into him is not what's needed right now. What he really needs is this nurturing, feminine energy that says, Hey, I've got you. And then the masculine energy kicks in that sits down with his school and says, you have to do something about it.
00:30:47:09 - 00:31:07:10
Shivani
And by the way, you know, here is some information and data. So knowing what you need to utilize and becoming aware of, that is really powerful. And that took me a long time to get it. And I'm sure some days I completely miss it. But becoming aware of where I'm sitting, what do I need, but also what the other person needs and which one do I need to find that
00:31:07:12 - 00:31:13:07
Shivani
has been a lot of work. But very powerful when you actually become aware of it.
00:31:13:07 - 00:31:22:00
Andreas
Yeah, exactly. It's an aha moment once you realize that these two energies exist or
00:31:22:00 - 00:31:26:08
Andreas
they are part of you, you can choose which energy to apply at which point.
00:31:26:08 - 00:31:47:08
Shivani
Yeah. And, you know, some people call that emotional intelligence. Some people call that energy work. Whatever you apply that, as long as the intention behind is that I'm going to bring that part of myself in to create a, you know, that one plus one is three. So that if I bring that in, the outcome is going to be better than if I didn't bring that in.
00:31:48:05 - 00:32:22:01
Andreas
I want to take you to your speaking vocation. And you, you are passionate about translating passion into discipline. I think you have a talk with a title along the lines of Passion without discipline is pointless. And we talked, in the pre-show, about your Ask framework, how you turn passion into discipline. So I'd love to hear you tell us more about it.
00:32:22:01 - 00:32:39:11
Shivani
Absolutely. I mean, I find a lot of people use the word passion. I see it everywhere. I see it on drink bottles. I see it on people's values. But a lot of people don't know how to translate it. And in fact, a lot of the global research talks about the fact that most of us are disconnected to this word, passion.
00:32:39:11 - 00:33:03:14
Shivani
We don't know how to find it. So I felt going on that quest was really important. And passion is sometimes seen as this fleeting thing that comes from your heart or a desire that I'm passionate about that. But passion without discipline becomes pointless. So that's where the discipline bit came in. So that, for example, if you're really passionate about your health then you've got to be really disciplined about it, you've got to set up the cadence and the rhythms to be able to take care of that.
00:33:03:14 - 00:33:25:02
Shivani
If you're really passionate about your family, like really passionate about your family, then what are the actions that you've got in place? What is the discipline you've got in place? So the Ask framework was really to help people navigate their way through. The first one was, I've created a model of seven different passions, and you might call them different things, but essentially, you know, for example, somebody says, I really love traveling.
00:33:25:02 - 00:33:45:17
Shivani
I'm passionate about traveling. Do you travel for your soul? Do you travel because of your family? Do you travel because of your work? So when you get really clear about which path travel brings in for you, then what you want to do in your top three passions, which you consciously choose is setting ten goals for each of those, and a lot of people don't set goals.
00:33:45:17 - 00:34:13:11
Shivani
Some people set goals. They hit them, they miss them. But when your goals are in alignment with your passions, when you set your passions first and then you set the goals underneath them, then the success rate goes up exponentially. And so, becoming aware of them in that Ask model, the setting goals, the ten goals around that, then creating vision boards if you're a visual person. And the key in Ask is really that knowing is time is finite.
00:34:13:13 - 00:34:36:19
Shivani
You know, we've all had people in our life, that we loved that passed away or got very unwell. And so whether you want to look at weeks in the year, hours in the week, seconds, and whatever measure, just knowing the time is really finite and that you don't want to get to your deathbed with passion still in you and having those regrets.
00:34:36:19 - 00:34:52:01
Shivani
So creating and carving out that discipline and time to leave those in a way that makes you feel like life is great. So yeah, I just had the opportunity to do a TED Talk. I only had 12 minutes to do it, but I hope that that message came across.
00:34:52:10 - 00:34:57:11
Andreas
And what are the passions, your top three passions, when it comes to Shivani?
00:34:57:11 - 00:35:17:13
Shivani
My top three passions are work, family, and mind, in that order. And when I came across the first one and I... You know, it's not that I love my work more than my family, but as the first woman in my lineage to work and have that opportunity to work, you know, I feel so privileged to be able to work.
00:35:17:13 - 00:35:39:09
Shivani
So if my family needs me, I'd be there. But I spent more time thinking, obsessing, looking at what I can do around my business, but also to educate those million girls around the world. Then it's my family, and then it's my mind and learning. And so I will make time each day to do some level of learning, whether it's reading books or doing other things.
00:35:39:11 - 00:35:54:23
Shivani
The other thing that also means is that when you get clear on your passions, you also get clear on what not your passions are. So the trick is also to learn to say no a lot to the things that you're not that passionate about. For example, social is number seven out of seven on my hierarchy of passions.
00:35:55:01 - 00:36:12:19
Shivani
And, as much as I am social, but if I've got an opportunity to spend time with my family or work or read a book, rather than go out with a bunch of friends that I might have seen a week ago, I will always choose the other three, one of the other three. So also learning to say no to things that are not in your passions, has been really key.
00:36:12:19 - 00:36:30:10
Andreas
Knowing that you read a lot and one of your passions is learning, what would you recommend that we read? Something that has resonated with you? Perhaps relevant to leadership and workplace culture.
00:36:31:03 - 00:36:57:00
Shivani
That is such a hard question to answer, Andreas. Let me just take a couple of things that are very different. Spiritually, probably one of the best books I've read is You Can Heal Your Life by Louise Hay, because it really started to shift the way that I think, and that I'm being. One of the books that I love that really started to shift my habits was Atomic Habits by James Clear.
00:36:57:01 - 00:37:30:16
Shivani
That really, really help leadership, Leaders Eat Last that talks about culture. And that really resonated with me, having my Indian background of treating our guests and people who are employees as mini gods and then being able to, you know, eat last. And then I really love reading inspirational things. You know, I don't read a lot of autobiographies, but books like Nelson Mandela's book really had a pretty profound impact on me because I really started to think about...
00:37:30:16 - 00:37:40:11
Shivani
yeah, the significance and the opportunities I have compared to him and what he created in that space. So I could keep going. But I'll stop with those 3 or 4.
00:37:41:07 - 00:37:52:10
Andreas
And Shivani, what… What do you think leaders have to be more conscious about? What would you whisper to the ear of a leader that was
00:37:52:10 - 00:37:59:01
Andreas
unaware of his leadership style or unaware of the culture he was building around him or her?
00:37:59:01 - 00:38:19:19
Shivani
Yeah, absolutely. From my personal experience, the thing that really started to shape that for me, not just in my leadership but in all aspects, was meditation. And I had avoided being a meditator. I was like, ah, I don't really want to do that. Sometimes I literally meditate to be a better parent. Sometimes I meditate to be a better leader.
00:38:19:19 - 00:38:53:22
Shivani
Sometimes I meditate just to have some creativity and space. So that has been a really big game changer for me. And you know, I don't want to get you to get hung up on the word meditation. It's not about sitting on a mountaintop and doing ohms, right? It's more about becoming conscious, exactly the words, Andreas, that you just used, by doing that, or even if you're sitting there counting, breathing into a four and breathing out to four, that's meditation. You want to call it breathing, you want to become... anything that you can do to become aware, whether you walk in silence or you run or something that brings you into the awareness, and you start
00:38:53:22 - 00:39:24:05
Shivani
to look at yourself and how you interact with people from a third perspective, and have that consciousness about it. That has been the game changer. I call it meditation. Other people call it, you know, swimming in the pool or in the ocean or running. So whatever form of that is for you, that gives you that awareness, that gives you that space, I think is more important than reading the books and doing a thousand courses.
00:39:24:07 - 00:39:44:18
Shivani
I used to work in manufacturing when I first started work as an engineer. And, you know, they did, in this Japanese factory, they did a bit of a competition to see who could design the best safety. And so people, you know, created safety rails, some people did better steps.
00:39:44:18 - 00:40:09:22
Shivani
Some people worked out how they could point things out so people wouldn't trip over and injure themselves. And the person that won created a one-meter by one-meter Japanese garden in the middle of the factory floor. And they said, if we can just have time to think about how we are injuring people, how some people don't go home because they died, that is, that awareness is going to be much more important than the other thing.
00:40:09:22 - 00:40:29:12
Shivani
Now, that was over 20 years ago. I've never forgotten that because it really got me starting to think about the fact that I needed to be more aware. I needed time to be and reflect and think about what was happening, rather than doing more, you know, kind of doing less and becoming more aware, if that make sense.
00:40:29:17 - 00:40:32:20
Andreas
Shivani, where can people find out more about you and follow your work?
00:40:33:00 - 00:40:48:09
Shivani
Yeah, absolutely. There are a couple of places. The main one is passioninstitute.global, which is our training company, and my personal speaking and authoring is askshivani.com. So one of those and LinkedIn also.
00:40:48:09 - 00:40:59:12
Andreas
Shivani, thank you for… for your humility, for your vulnerability, for your hard-learned lessons of life.
00:40:59:12 - 00:41:42:06
Andreas
I've… I've learned a lot from our discussion. To everyone listening, thank you for giving us your undivided attention in these 40 or so minutes. If you liked this show as much as I did, enjoying and learning from Shivani, please give us a five-star rating. Because that's how more people get to find out about the podcast and spread the word. And if you want to watch us and not just listen to us, you can always go to YouTube. And if you want to learn more about creating a high-performance culture, you can always go to rethinkculture.co and with all of that
00:41:42:08 - 00:41:56:19
Andreas
thank you again for listening, and keep leading a life at work and at family, like we said today, here with Shivani, where you can inspire others to be better versions of themselves.