027 | Steven Grasse | Brand Mysticism: how to create winning brands from the bottom-up | Hendrick's Gin, Sailor Jerry Rum, Guinness, Miller High Life

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 027 I had the honor of interviewing Steven Grasse. He is the founder of the renowned agency Quaker City Mercantile and of Tamworth Distilling. He is a legend in the drinks industry, having created brands such as Hendrick's gin, Sailor Jerry Rum, and having crafted great rebirths such as Pilsner Urquell, Guinness, and Miller High Life. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Main Topics Discussed:

0 to 1 Bottle:

- Differentiating Liquid

- Why Not to Chase Trends

- Bridging Categories through Taste Profile

1 Bottle to 1 Case:

- Building a Rich Brand World

- The Importance of Rituals

- Choosing Partners & Distributors

1 Case to 1 Pallet

- On, Off-Trade and State Monopolies

- Institutional Knowledge

- Award Show

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Steven Grasse

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Steven Grasse

Founder | QCM Quaker City Mercantile

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Industry Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mathew Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Mathew.
In episode 27, I had the honor

of interviewing Stephen Grass.
He's the founder of the renowned

agency Quaker City Mercantile
and of Tamworth Distilling.

He's a legend in the drinks
industry, having created brands

such as Hendricks, Gene, Sailor
Jerry Rum and having crafted

great rebirds such as Pilser,
Rocco, Guinness and Miller High

Life.
I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Hi, Steve, how you doing?
Good.

Good to be with you.
Thanks for accepting my

invitation.
It's a it's a great honor to to

have you here.
I read your book last Christmas.

I I bought it myself for as a
Christmas gift.

My listeners are are quite
familiar with it because I I

keep coding it into my episodes
when they asked me to recommend

something and it's I think it's
a great read for people with the

within the industry but also.
I agree, it's a great read and

everyone in Czech Republic needs
to read my book.

Whether you're in marketing or
not, brand mysticism will change

your life and we'll make you a
better person.

I'm pretty sure about it.
And just so you know, like my

Fair Drinks podcast is listened
by, you know, people in 70

countries around the world.
Hopefully, like, more and more

people around the world are
going to read Brand Mysticism.

Let's start with some of the
questions.

I know how how important brand
brands are for are for you.

I mean you are the person behind
you know, Hendrix Jane, Sailor

Jerry Rum, you know and many
other brands whether for let's

say other distilleries or for
your own distillery, the thumb

work distillery.
And what what would you say

plays the, let's say that that
the first step in terms of

building a brand, does it start
from the liquid or does it start

from the brand?
I like to say.

It all happens at once like The
Big Bang Theory and it all needs

to be conceived as one idea.
And I think the mistake a lot of

people make is they create
things in isolation.

So we don't believe in above the
line, below the line.

We designed all of our own
packaging, we designed all the

marketing, we designed the go to
market strategy, we create the

liquid.
So I think it needs to be like

one creation.
You need to be God.

God created.
The world and you need to create

your own world that's that's a
very nice way of seeing it.

In the book you're talking about
the The Onion, your your

methodology of you know,
building brands.

So what would you say is that is
the thing that brand should

focus on when building?
Well, I think it should be a

core truth of the brand.
And then the onion is the way to

express that truth.
So.

Another good example would be
that the work we do on Malaga

tequila.
We didn't create that brand but

we were asked to fix it or or
give it a new world.

And we looked at Malaga tequila
and said, well, it's interesting

because it had a much lighter
taste profile than than many

tequilas and it came in a in a
very conic and tall blue bottle.

So simple lime was the brighter
side of tequila and.

The same thing with Hendrix.
The whole idea about being

curious, and it's not for
everyone, came out of almost by

accident when we created that
because a lot of people were

like, what the hell is this?
So we kind of said, well, it's

not for everyone, right?
So it comes out of a core truth

of the brand.
And then the onion is the

different ways you express that
truth.

And it's all interconnected.
So there is no hierarchy except

you're you're sort of pounding
away at this one idea.

Over and over again in different
ways and expressing it in

different ways.
OK.

And what do you think about
them?

When I look at new brands, I
mean we are over bombarded with

messaging and you talk a lot
about this in your book as well.

There's something about
storytelling that gets soft and

misinterpreted by brand creators
and brand owners that you know,

they spent too.
I feel at least that they spent

too much time on building the
story of the brand, but they

don't substantiate it with a
with a compelling link with that

talks about that.
Well, again, if it's all, it's

all connected, right?
There's no point of having a

fantastic story.
The liquids just bullshit,

right?
So and that's our, our whiskey

brand that we've come out with
called Dunts was our way of

making fun of whiskey brands
that have fantastic stories.

She had the liquid.
All comes from the same

industrial source in Indiana.
So we created Dunce as a joke,

but now it's a very serious
brand and growing like crazy

because again, but that's the
brand's core truth, right?

I think we always say there's
three things that make a great

brand and they seem really
obvious.

So many people don't get it
right.

You need to have differentiated
liquid.

Why does this brand exist?
Why would anyone drink this?

What's the elevator pitch for
the liquid?

With Sailor Jerry, it was 92
proof versus Captain Morgan's

with 70 or something.
So instead for a buck more, you

got 92 proof right?
So differentiated liquid unique

packaging, Hendrix, very unique
packaging that that expresses

what might be found inside the
bottle.

And then the third thing is a
very unique brand world.

And when we say world, we mean a
very detailed and rich brand

world that is not complicated
but detailed.

The examples we always give are
we say we create brands the way

Token created, you know, Middle
Earth or the way.

Even Star Wars is a very
detailed world.

The Simpsons is the very
detailed world.

So within that world, if you do
it right, for instance like

Hendricks has not changed its
brand world in 24 years.

It's only added to it.
You add to the and again, it's a

Big Bang, right?
So if you add to the layers of

the brand world, but you never
change the core messaging

because you thought it all up at
the same time and it's one

complete idea and it's you know.
The world, interconnected, loved

meaning, vibration, God, all
that stuff.

So I love that.
I really like when reading your

book about Sailor Jerry is a
boozier Cap Morgan now with the

we.
Call it the punk.

It was the punk rock camping
work the the, the punk rock

after Morgan and you're gonna
get it for, you know, like you.

You basically go from.
More for much more.

You got a brand that wasn't
wasn't stupid.

Got a brand was actually cool.
And that's what I mean when I

stressed that with brand owners
about like, you know, get

something really simple to
understand first, you know, get

them in, get the foot in the
door and then you build the

narrative.
I mean like the narrative, you

have it already but you don't
talk about it yet if if I get it

right, like you know with Andrix
you talk about the unusual gin,

you don't talk about the the
Victorian brand world.

That no, that's the way we
that's just the way we express

it.
And in fact, we always say show

it, don't say it.
Right, we are the brand.

Andrix was the first gym from
Scotland, first you know

successful gym from Scotland and
we rarely talk about Scotland.

It's part of our world but we
don't harp on and on about it,

which is interesting.
My latest successful brand is

called the Pathfinder and it's a
non alcoholic brand.

The whole not out category.
I don't know if it's making

inroads and check not not that
much yet.

But you know why?
Because it's stupid.

It's stupid.
Non alcoholic spirits are stupid

and when we were approached by
some former Diageo exec that we

worked with Ongiveness he said
you want to start an on out

brand.
I said only if we can do when

it's not stupid and we decided
to create a brand I I said I

want to make a Nonalc brand that
just happens to be not out

right.
So it's it's a it's a great

liquid and and I wanted to make
something that worked equally

well with when non alcoholic
cocktails.

But also worked well in
alcoholic cocktails and also

worked well in coffee and worked
well in food culinary and I

wanted to create what I call
ketchup.

Ketchup meaning it goes with
everything, right.

So the Pathfinder I I think it's
kind of like in Amaro in America

tomorrow it's a bitter.
And the other part too was like

what we saw on the night out
category was everyone was

creating like a non alcoholic
whiskey and an alcoholic.

Tequila.
And the problem with that is

you're creating something that
people can say, well, I know

whiskey.
This is no whiskey, right?

So I thought if you created a
liquid that no one could compare

anything against, it would be
best because you couldn't say,

yeah, I've had an alcoholic
version of this from this sock.

So we created something you
cannot compare it against.

So I actually took our old brand
Root, which we discontinued a

while ago, which is a very
alcoholic version of root beer.

And I created a liquor profile
that was a not alcoholic version

of that to a degree.
And then we put hemp in it

because we wanted to create a
sense of danger because you know

cannabis, right, And give it a
bitterness.

But then we looked at the golden
age of cannabis.

When we create brand worlds that
unfolds, it's like a stream of

consciousness.
So cannabis, what was the golden

age of cannabis?
What was it?

The 1840s?
The American West snake oil

salesman.
So we decided to create our own

snake oil brand and this also
was our way of poking fun at the

non alcoholic business.
It was emerging because most of

the brands out there I feel are
snake oil, which you call the

Emperor's new clothes.
Like some of these I won't name

names because I'm while I'm
cruel, I'm not mean, but some of

these things, you drink them and
it's like Oh my God, this is the

Emperor's new clothes because
this shit tastes like bottled

water flavored water, but you're
selling it for 40 bucks because

it's distilled.
I'm doing air quotes so.

We thought, like, with that
snake oil, so let's create an

actual snake oil rat.
So Pathfinder has this very

curious American Morrow vibe.
It's got like hemp Wintergreen

sassafras, not sassafras because
that causes cancer, but

something that tastes like
sassafras.

And we put this flavor together
and it had this incredible,

awesome, like 1840s American W
vibe.

And then we put outrageous
claims on the bottle.

Like destroyer of bad vibes.
I think it also says on it

relieves weak knees and we all
these the crazy things and so we

just had a total blast poking
fun at the industry and wouldn't

you know it it took off and it's
the number one non Alex steer in

many of these stores like
they're in in the states.

Actual chains of non alcoholic
bottle shops have strung up like

boys, John and Seal proof.
We're consistently the

consistently the number one
seller in those stores.

We're also the New York Times
seeing that the best 9 ox deer

last year.
So it's like again, we use brand

mysticism to create something
but but there's always in my

work, there's always this very
playful like I like to talk with

people and I like to it's I
don't take any of this

seriously.
It's like a the whole thing's

performance art and a prank to
me in a way, but I find that.

The more fun we have and the
sillier we get, the more

successful we are, which I find
even funny.

You can't take me seriously, but
the sales tend to be very

serious, which is nice.
So which is tough is great that

I've been following you for a
while, since the old days with

you know Princeton or coal.
And to be honest, like that I

was one of those people that,
you know, started drinking

Hendricks Gene as a known gene
drinker because I had a bad

experience with Gene as we
probably old all I've done in

the in the earlier ages of of
our legal drinking age.

And when they explained it to
me, they explained it so well.

And I fell in love with the
brand because of how easy he

was.
Like, you know, this friend that

brought me a bottle here
visiting me in Prague, she, she

explained it to me almost like
she was working for the company

and she had never been working
for it.

You know, she was like, oh,
yeah, I brought you this bottle

and I said, oh, what's that?
And she said it's gin.

And it's like, yeah, but I don't
drink gin.

Sorry.
And she said like yo, that's

why.
I love it.

You'll drink this gin?
Yeah, yeah.

And she said that's why you love
it.

And I was like, what the hell?
You know, like it.

Are you working for the company
or or what?

And then, you know, we went and
we bought a cucumber like in the

store and she made me the the
ritual with the cucumber slice.

And then we went out and all the
bars were actually doing it

properly.
Yeah.

And I was impressed.
And I was like, you know, I've

never seen this brand.
And it's so easy to explain.

And then all my friends started
drinking when when I started

drinking because they didn't
know what to order, then they

saw me going straight onto the
bar or during Hendricks and

Sonic and then it was so easy
and so contagious in that in

that.
Well, and it's interesting

because it's easy to understand
and yet it's incredibly it makes

no sense and it's complex at the
same time.

And I think that that's where
the magic comes in and it's also

like.
I don't know when you read a

book or look at a movie, a hit
movie and you're like you try to

analyze what made it work.
Well what made it work was

magic.
There's no logic and and brands

at the marketing industry kills
magic when they overanalyze

things because you don't know
how something work.

I have a new book coming out.
It's called Conjuring Creativity

and it's literally delves into
the history of where ideas come

from and they literally come
from the ether and.

Their magic and we look at
historically like, you know,

Tesla, Newton, Carl Jung, great
thinkers who openly said they

got their ideas from some other
place, some other dimension and

the book teaches you how to
access those dimensions.

So that's the truth of our
brands is they don't make sense

and but they do.
It's very hard to explain that

and rather than explain that.
I searched the world for people

who understand and will let that
be and then they can hire me.

Because if I have to explain why
a brand works, it's often like

there is no road map for them.
It's just it's literally magic.

I remember actually that you
just came to a mind, a

presentation from from your
agency QCM back in the days when

I was in SV Miller, where it was
like some slides about and there

were the initial lies from your
company.

And then he was like, we don't
do, that's research, we don't do

research.
I love the way you were bringing

that message because it's really
about that.

It's really about the power of
the niche.

But in a good sense like finding
the target in I'm a big fan of

the target occasion like a
drinking occasion and no matter

how small that can be it
replicates across the world

across the nation across
different cities and and so on

and and for example when when I
was reading on in on on your

book the you know when you were
talking about Hendricks and the

line extensions of the cabinet
of curiosity you know and and I

love to read some of those
occasions that are not they are

existing occasions but they are
non existing occasion at the

same time if you know what I
mean.

So for example like with Lunar,
there was this phone vaping or

or or the meat, summer sausages,
you know the.

Flowers, of course that was that
was always the, you know, with

Hendricks, when you get into
doing variants, you kill the

magic if you do what everyone
else is doing.

So the idea with the the
variants that we did was how do

you, how do you do line
extensions without killing what

made the brand so magical in the
1st place.

And the answer is lunar, and
then all the other ones that

we've done.
Flora Door, other and then and

each one's been more successful
than the last, which I think

it's just very exciting very
straight.

So it's it's great.
You know I want to talk about

Pilsner and Kel because there's
different ways to perform brand

mysticism on a brand.
So what is pilsner and Kel came

to us and said we can't export
Pilsner because it's skunks up.

This is the thing where we we,
we understand the industry on a.

Very deep level because we own
our own brewery.

We own our own distillery and
we're we're actually we

understand it on a you know a
molecular physical quantum level

right.
So first thing we said to to

Pillser was like why do you do
green glass like green glass is

why it skunks and the answer was
we do green glass because we

want to be Heineken.
I think it start went back to

World War 2 when you switch to
green because I think it it.

The brown I don't know there's
something there something with

that but but we like so you got
to go to brown glass and then

we're like why aren't you in can
Well a cheap instead it's it's

we're like American craft is all
in cans and they're in cans

because it protects the beer so
you got to do can and then the

brand did almost nothing with
its history right.

And which we thought was amazing
and a part of it was the history

of the brand was mossed with,
you know, you guys had that

trouble period behind the Iron
Curtain and all that stuff.

But we, we said the first thing
we always do, we go to a company

is show us the archives, right?
And we got in there.

There wasn't that much there.
But what there was, we bought it

into pure gold on the cans, like
we did this collector cans.

I remember them.
And that changed the trajectory

and the brown, the brown glass,
you guys fought it in check.

The check market said no, we
don't do that and we're like but

then when you did release them,
they worked really well and the

other thing we saw with the tank
bars in in Prague.

And we're like, my God, can you
do that elsewhere?

And then that's how that
started.

We did them across Europe, but
you couldn't do them in the

States.
But that changed so that the

answer is rarely advertising.
The answer is rarely.

Let's do a 62nd commercial.
The answer is what is a core

truth of the brand, and then how
do you spin that truth into?

Meaning that has magic.
And how do you keep adding

layers of meaning in new fresh
ways to keep people excited.

And of course we all know what
happened with Kilzer nerds.

SAD sold to in Bev and in Bev
sold.

Spun off the brand to cure and I
think and then you know we got

lost.
Oh yeah, I saw you and we got

lost.
It got lost in, you know, the

waves of corporate murders and
takeovers and globalism.

But.
Anyway, I mean, for a period,

for a brief period shining
moment, that brand was like a

superstar in the Miller S A/B
universe.

And it's like, and it was and it
was exciting.

It was exciting to be part of it
and to to to actually look at

something.
We always say, well, what art in

art.
The other thing that's really

important about Quaker City is
my core team.

We have like 80 employees, my
core team of about 15 people.

We've all worked together for 25
years.

Some employees have been with me
for 30 years.

So we always say we're like The
Rolling Stones.

We can go into a brand.
We don't even talk to each

other.
We're just like sometimes you

just kind of kick the tires or
twist it on like, OK, now it

works right.
You don't have to change

anything.
Sometimes it's a reduction.

Stop doing all of this
marketing.

Stop doing like Miller
Highlights is a brand.

You know, it's great.
American classic.

Your brand and and we got the
account by when we went in there

we showed them two things bottle
of Heinz ketchup and a jar of

Hellman's mayonnaise and we just
said look you guys are the

Helmand's mayonnaise of beer.
What we meant by that is

Hellman's mayonnaise is every
chef every five star four-star

Michelin chef uses helmands.
It's the classic okay.

Same with Heinz ketchup like.
Miller Highlight is a classic

and yet they kept trying to get
hipsters and young people to

drink it by doing all this
marketing and we're like, stop

doing that.
You got to redo your packaging

back to the original classic.
You got to tone it down.

You were the champagne of beers.
You got to tell people how you

got that name which is champagne
of beers.

They use champagne yeast.
So why the bubbles are small and

that's why it hasn't certain
taste.

They never talk about them and
so they made it a joke.

So it sometimes it's about going
back to square one and finding

what need to bring magic in the
1st place and then exploiting

that.
So each time we go in there's a

different answer.
It's never the same thing.

And the other thing I think it's
really important is this is for

all you European designers
because you tend to make shit

way too trendy and and you make
answers out of yourself by doing

that okay so, so we always say
make things ugly on purpose.

What we mean by that is the
brand needs to fit the period

that you're evoking, and he
needs to fit the market you're

trying to reach or capture.
So the Sailor Jerry bottle, it's

a great example of ugly on
purpose.

The original 1, now they fucked
with it so many times.

It's not it's not cool anymore.
But when we did, it's supposed

to look like it sat on your
granddad basement bar.

You know, like 1973 vintage.
Ugly, right.

And that and that.
A big part of why the brand took

off was that it was ugly ugly
brand, right.

Same of our, our Narragansett
beer brand.

That's the ugliest beer brand on
the market.

But it works.
It looks authentic and because

it is authentic, right.
So, and I think a lot of

particularly British design,
it's so like you know exactly

what year it was created because
oh, that was that was in the

DNAD book in 1997 or 2012.
It's dated the moment it comes

out.
So if you do it right, no one

will ever know.
You know, it should look like

we've had people challenges,
like there's no way you created

Hendricks.
It doesn't the bar create 1887.

I'm like, yeah, we created it.
It says 1887 because that's when

the family founded Grandsons.
We did that because that means

it works because it looks like
it's timeless.

Yeah, absolutely.
And and to build on this one,

like I was recently in a bar, I
mean a few days ago.

And I was talking to one of the
bartenders and they said Oh

yeah, like I I love Hendricks
and and they were talking about

new gene brands coming up and
they said like you know you

can't get gene right if you have
a new distillery right right

there.
But Hendricks, like they it's

it's a 200 years old brand.
And I didn't, I didn't correct

them on purpose.
And I was, I was smiling because

I was just about to have this,
this, this chat with you and I.

And I was thinking exactly about
those things and I said like,

that's exactly.
What Steve and the team were

trying to convey as a massive
precisely we're very active with

publicity but for our own brands
we don't really try to get

brands per press on our clients
brand because it's kind of like

you know what Per we just don't
talk about.

So I'm talking about in regards
to the book I wrote, but it's

like because if you do it right,
it's the agency doesn't matter.

It's the it's the the brand is
bigger than than I hate.

That's why we I fucking hate
award shows.

I hate advertising and marketing
award shares and I hate whiskey

or a spirits award.
It's a big con job and it it

destroys your creativity because
you start creating things to win

awards as opposed to to do the
job you're supposed to be doing.

Absolutely.
And I think that's why every

British design thing looks the
same because they're all trying

to win it.
VNAD or whatever, the adding

tents or whatever the fuck they
are stupid.

And the same with the Spirit
awards.

It's a giant con and you enter
all these awards and spend all

your money, like take your money
and do more activations, do more

liquid to lips, do more
tastings, you know what I mean?

So it's to think of awards need
nothing.

It's like you got things
shooting as craft, a Stiller

with a tons of gold medals
around, some crappy sourced

whiskey that they bought from
MPG.

It's like it's stupid. 100
percent, 100%.

And there's a few things that I
want to ask you.

So the first thing is like
talking about the the core team.

And in the book you speak about
the fact that you hire people

just as a as a first job kind of
thing.

Now, like as much as possible as
at least I we we hired a guy

yesterday on the condition that
he has to read Moby Dick in its

entirety in within six months
and take a test on it.

And if he doesn't pass the test,
I'm firing him.

And he agreed.
Why interviews are

psychologically traumatic when I
interview you?

Because I had us to ask the
weirdest question and I think

it's I want to find out you can
because it's about character.

Like I can train somebody to do
anything.

I want to know like how you
think and whether you have the

same intellectual curiosity
because that ultimately that's

what that.
That's the old thing,

ultimately, but when I'm talking
to brand owners like they are.

They're rushing into delegating
to to someone.

So for example, many brand
owners don't like to sell their

brands.
You know, they don't like to go

into the streets and you know
fit on the street and team bar

and so on.
They they hire a brand

ambassador right away, you know,
or a sales team and so on.

But they don't even know what
the rejections are.

So how how do you ensure?
Like how do you make it work?

Like when when you have a team
and and you train them to

actually then at some point.
Really think like with with the

QCM mindset kind of kind of
thing.

Apart from hiring them of course
like hiring the right people.

I I think a lot of that starts
with the hiring process though

because I think that kind of
train them and also have to get

them right out of school or
we're soon after that.

It's it tends a lot of my
employees day decades.

So it becomes a lifestyle and a
culture where we learn and I I

think that and once you find
good people treat them like,

treat them like gold, you know,
So in terms of like selling and

stuff, we have a very different
vision of that because you know

the big brands that we work with
what they call a brand

ambassador is very different
than what we call a brand

ambassador.
So our brand ambassadors are

very tied to sales goals and in
addition to calling on accounts,

they're also very much doing
tastings on premise and off

premise.
And a lot of the bigger brands,

brand ambassadors are are almost
an extension to marketing and in

the sense that they're almost
like a living embodiment of the

brand at the brand world as
opposed to getting into the

nittygritty.
And I think a lot of that's more

question of size and scale.
With our Tamborth distillery, we

don't have the luxury of having
a pure brand investor.

Our guys need to be out there
hustling, right?

I need to be accountable, yeah.
And I think the same is true

with like, you know, the
Pathfinder with two full time

brand new bastards now and
they're a real mix of both

people.
We have very much embodied the

the weirdness of the brand, but
they're also really out there

hustling.
And it's it's just a different

kind of different kind of
approach.

When it comes to.
To the fact that you were

discussing before like the the
award, I mean I'm 100% with you

on their word.
You know, I whatever brand I

bump into, they've got some
gold, silver medals.

It's funny because we've never
spoken actually in in person and

we are very much aligned in the
thinking on on the fact that I

speak to some brands and they
reach out to me on LinkedIn and

you know, like they want to have
some advice and they don't have

any money.
And they almost, you know, would

like it to have it pro bono.
And then I realized that they've

got to stand in whatever like a
trade fair that costs thousands

of EUR.
And then I say you know you're

spending money on awards, on
trade shows and you haven't got

right your bottom up strategy.
You haven't cracked the

commercial side and the nitty
gritty of the brand.

So a lot of brands like spend
money on the wrong things and

you mentioned that in the book.
Now on the.

You know like they'd throw
parties and they do cool stuff

because it's fun.
Instead of reading you you sent

you wanted to talk about Prize
Fight.

That was the demise of Prize
Fight.

We created that brand with our
distributor in Ireland.

They distributed Taylor, Jerry
and I think Hendricks.

But then they approached us
separately and said they wanted

to create a Irish Swiss to win
and they would put the money up

front and we would get sweat
equity and maybe we do a lot of

deals like that.
And and then they proceeded to

one day they did not promote the
brand in their home country.

Instead they focused very
quickly on going to New York,

Boston, I think they went to
Amsterdam.

And it's like if they had just
focused on Ireland, specifically

Dublin and got it heavily into
retail and done retail sampling

and then also in the bars, the
brand would have killed it.

But you know, not only did they
go to all these other countries

like the US, they treated
themselves to business class

airfare to come to any event.
It's like guys, and then and

then when they ran out of money,
they said you need to put money

in now.
I'm like, fuck no, no, but great

liquid, great product.
It was a great product and

fortunately it just like with my
distillery in New Hampshire.

The best advice I ever got was
from Ernest Gallo Junior who

runs.
He's the CEO of Galleno, and he

came to the distillery right
after we opened.

And he said that so many craft
distilleries make the mistake of

expanding too quickly and going
into markets and then having no

support for those brands.
And you're in a you're in a

another city or another town or
another state and nobody knows

who cares that you're craft
distillers from wherever, right?

So he said, my advice is to own
the state you're in.

I'm like, wow.
And so in town in New Hampshire,

which is the third largest
single buyer of spirits in the

world because they're a state
monopoly, we are by far the

biggest distiller as a state
monopoly.

They have to take my product and
we have point of purchase

displays that we've built and
given to all their stores and we

have prominent display in every
store and it's like take care of

that first and then expand to
other market.

And that's why I like you know I
I think a lot of craft

distillers like these guys, they
might have no idea about the

business.
They might have been big old

wall like whatever wherever they
start.

Like I think a lot of these guys
don't understand marketing or

focus solely on the liquid or
whatever.

And I think he's got a really,
as far as crafty stealing goes,

I need to see a lot of guys
making mistakes.

And it's heartbreaking because
you know, like they put all

their, they probably remortgage
their house and they probably

have Uncle Joey's money,
everybody's money wrapped up on

this thing.
I mean you have they have no

idea how to how to just sell
enough.

So it's like when you're
starting a product it's your new

brand.
Got to look at the math.

It's real simple.
Okay.

How many of this do I need?
How much of this do I need to

sell to break even?
And then the the complicated

thing with that too is what you
get rolling.

The cost is multiplied, right.
So suddenly you've got glass raw

materials, and if you're
successful, you better have

enough money in the bank to
expand, because that's a whole

other keg of fish, right?
You know when we started the Art

and the Age brand?
Right after we sold Sailor

Jerry, the brand root, which is
what I then took that liquid and

base it on the Pathfinder.
But the brand root took off like

crazy and suddenly we had to
start ordering all this glass

and all of this warehouse space
and all of this stuff and we got

scared because the costs were
escalating insanely and and then

grants came in and I think six
months after we started and said

we'll buy it from and we're like
00 K hot potato you take it.

They ended up running it into
the ground and handing it back

to me.
So I learned not to sell

something too early, but at the
same time it's also like when

you grow like, so for instance,
our Tan Work distillery, we're

very well funded now.
We just bought another 104 acres

and we're building a second
distillery in a series of barrel

houses because we're we're
expanding.

But it's it's like you need to
have that infrastructure and

this resources in place before
you start, because growing

quickly and not being able to
keep it up is as bad as having a

gathered duct on the show.
I always say like be careful

what you wish for now because a
lot of the brands they go.

They go and pitch retailers
like, you know, huge retailers

now like Test or or like are you
crazy?

You know, like do you know what
that is?

You know like do you know the
payment terms only?

Well, I know like states too we
have the issue of the three tier

system that was put in place
after you know after prohibition

that manufacturers must sell to
distributors and distributors of

retailer.
But the distributors, some of

these states, they're called
franchise States and once you

sign with them, you can never
undo the deal they have you for

life.
So for instance, I think

Tennessee's A franchise state,
If a distributor wants, will

carry you in in Tennessee and
they put you on the shelves and

nothing happens and they'll just
be like, yeah, well, you,

Brandon, work here.
I'm like, okay, can we just undo

the deal?
No, no.

So you're stuck with me for life
and I don't care about you.

Think of bad marriage and some
of these control states, for

instance Pennsylvania and New
Hampshire for me as a

manufacturer in Pennsylvania and
New Hampshire, the states have

to take your prop, but they'll
give you a 10 store listing as a

trial.
If you you can request a full

listing, which is like in Pai
think there's 637 stores,

they'll give it to you.
But if you don't make a minimum

sale amount, which is pretty
high, within a certain amount of

time, they'll delist you and
then your product can never be

reintroduced ever.
So you got to be really careful

what you're doing.
And I think that's the biggest

mistake I always say too.
And after 34 years of doing

this, coming with a great brand
and great liquid, that's the

easy part.
That's the fun part.

The hard part is making it
stick.

And the hard part is making it
grow.

And that's the part most people
have no idea what they're doing,

OK And most ad agencies,
packaging firms, event agencies

don't know what they're doing
either.

My advice to every marketer,
every brand in the in the world.

Fire your agency.
Hire me.

I know what I'm doing.
I alone know what I'm doing.

It's also about being brave
enough not to follow, not to

chase trends, right, because I
mean if you it's about I think

it's the right balance between
managing expectations, you know,

growth expectation and so on.
I I remember when you were

talking about Sailor Jerry, you
were saying like, you know, we

were not chasing Cap Morgan as
as a volume game, you know, it

was like we were chasing that.
Kind of like Liquid because that

was the the hook on the
proposition.

It's interesting.
It's like you know that the

thing with Sailor Jerry started
as a clothing company.

We bought the rights to Norman
Collins State, which was in

signature in the artwork,
although I don't know if it

technically owned the artwork.
We own this, we have the

signature.
So we bought that and started a

clothing company and it did.
Okay.

And then Grants, who was a
client of ours, said we need a

run for our portfolio.
And I'm like, here, call it

Sailor Jerry.
And they were like, they bought

that and I was far enough to
retain the rights to it.

But we weren't chasing anything.
It was more like this.

The brand is, is it something?
So I I finally chasing trends is

stupid because by the time
something's a trend, you're too

late.
You know Hendrix, I think it's

the global block blockbuster.
It is because it was really the

first, it was the first
different gym.

It was the first gym that wasn't
a London drive, right. 1st gym,

that wasn't Gordons or
Beefeater, right.

And that's why it that's why it
succeeded.

Same with sales.
Jr. was the first.

Barry saw a million knockoffs on
it and I think Pathfinder is

doing so well because it was the
first thing in the out out

category that was actually a
brand.

It was actually a differentiated
liquid and not just trying to be

a nonout version of something
else.

And I think that's why it caught
on so much.

So I think that's the goal, is
to think outside the box.

But you got to understand, like,
how somebody will use it because

we've done things that are too
weird.

I mean, in the book I talk about
this idea Stody, which was a

fortified wine, was a belly
flop.

And it was belly flop because
too many things were different.

The liquor was okay, but then
came in a milk bottle and the

closure didn't work.
And so it's too many things that

it couldn't overcome.
I think sometimes people make

things too different and too
strange.

I always say I create things for
myself, and I assume there's

other people like me out there,
but there's different aspects to

myself.
I don't have any tattoos, and I

think what made Taylor Jerry
work was I appreciated tattoos,

but I saw them through the lens
of like, folk, American

folklore.
And that's why we didn't have

the issue that something like Ed
Hardy had, which was like became

like stupid, whereas our brand
had this very different vibe to

it.
I'm really into punk rock, so I

tend to put things that I myself
am interested in into the brands

that I create.
They talk a lot about bands and

rock bands and how they create.
My favorite example is Led

Zeppelin and how they, you know,
they sing about Lord of the

Rings and Dragon between the two
and the Mississippi Blues, which

makes no sense, but that's what
makes it sticky and and that's

how we create brands.
So like with Sailor Jerry, it's

like World War 2, Hawaii punk
rock makes no sense, but when

you put it together, it's like a
it's like ingredients into a

Stew.
And then oh, wow, this is kind

of tasty.
This is an interesting flavor.

So, and I say with with
Hendricks, we, we don't like to

use the word Victoriata because
that's not what the brand is.

It's surrealism, right?
But it's its own brand, It's

surrealism.
So we're not trying to be

anything where it's Hendrick, if
you do it right, you're not

invading a lifestyle that
exists.

You're creating your own
lifestyle and people come to

that lifestyle and that's what
we really try to try to do.

That's why I feel like following
trends and things is we like

borrowing trends but we don't
ever create something that's.

On the trip, like who we are
because of everything else that

you know, we've read, we've
watched, we have spoken to

people and and and so on.
And I, I, I love what you're

saying about the fact that you
know you are who you are as as

as I am.
For example.

I love history, geography.
You know, like I like the lots

in classics and so on and
consumers have different faces.

And and this is what is wrong
sometimes on brands that I'm I'm

having in my little crusade
against target consumers because

I I don't like that verb.
This 2014 male, female, A/B plus

whatever, you know, it doesn't
mean anything to me because.

You would be sitting in a, I
don't know, a gala dinner in

Scotland and you would be
wearing something totally

different that you wear in a
punk rock concert, right?

And you would drink different
things, you know, and you would

behave differently.
But it's still Steven.

I think it's like a story.
Like I want to tell you a story.

Does this story sound
interesting?

It's not about a Democrat.
Here's a story for 18 to 24 year

old.
It's like it's more like it's

really borrowing from movies or
music and just like what makes

what picks something that, like
why was Led Zeppelin or David

Bowie?
What was it about him that was

so magnetic or or so
charismatic?

It's not that it was created for
a demographic or psychograph.

It's instead it was like its
own.

It's like a it's like an
intriguing story that captures

your interest, but you also have
to think how you would use the

liquid.
So if for instance, the Army age

theories that we created wrote
the rhubarb and the snap, which

was a ginger flavor, they were
really delicious, great liquids.

But I I made it too complex.
So they were organic certified,

which drove up the cost
incredibly, right?

And they were also very high
proof.

But yet what I had actually
created were some really tasty

cordials.
Really.

And why were they?
Why were they 90 proof?

So it worked with root, because
root could have.

If we had just stuck with root,
root could have been for net or

Yeager, it could have been the
American Yeager, right.

If that's kind of how you drag
it, you junk into the shot.

But I was like, no, I'm going to
have a series of it and I came

out with a series of them too
quickly.

And then the fact that they were
organically certified meant that

the profit margins were too low.
So there's like and that's why

grants, after they bought the
brand, they ultimately gave up

on it because it was too complex
and and they and the margins

weren't good enough for them to
continue.

So I feel like when you're
making an, we talked about this

when we first stopped, when we
first started talking a very

simple idea and then the story
is not complex but well told and

different ways of expressing
that simple idea over and over

again, right.
So you have to think like, you

know, like Hendricks, it's like
it's the gin for people who

don't like okay.
I get that.

I'll try it.
What am I tasting?

Are you tasting rose and
cucumber?

That's unusual, right.
So it's like very simple, very

simple story to understand.
So if you add too many bells and

whistles to things, which I
think a lot of people do either

through storytelling or through
overly complex liquid or through

an overly complex way of of
buying it, it ultimately will

fail.
Because it's like you need to

make things adjacent to what you
know or an an analog to

something else you know.
So if you like this, try this.

Oh interesting.
So if you make everything

different all at once, you've
lost your on.

That's hard to do.
And that's that's where I think

just years of of trial and error
and seeing what works and

doesn't, where that comes in,
you know, so I don't know.

Yeah.
And I and I think what you're

saying is also connected to the
thinking in in buckets that

often happens now because this
there's a few elements like

this.
One thing is category, you know.

Companies thinking categories is
like this is rum, this is

whiskey, this is Scotch, this is
Irish whiskey, this is American

whiskey, this is rye and they
don't think in terms of taste

profile now so I always bring
the example, you know like it

could be a, I don't know a
mescale.

You know I could bridge because
I like I like smokiness.

So I would bridge from an eye
lay whiskey to mescale based on

smokiness rather than on
category.

Right, But.
People think like okay, Miss Cow

and that must be it.
You know and up up trade from

tequila, you know forget Scotch
because Scotch is really

different animal.
So don't talk about Miss Cow and

Scotch together.
No, but consumer don't think

that way.
They don't think like I'm going

to have a Scotch tonight.
They feel like, you know, I feel

like this tonight, but it's a
delicate balance because because

you also, it's weird too,
because you feel like, yeah,

there you got the what the
consumer thinks, but you also

got to think about the way the
trade thinks.

And the trade tends to be a
bunch of stodgy old guys.

You've done it the same way.
You don't want to lose that.

So it's kind of like, you know,
you're talking about, hey, if

you like smoke, if you like the
circuitness of a miscal, you

should probably try these
Scotches.

There is a reason why it's like
okay.

So you can innovate in the
whiskey category, you can

innovate in the tequila
category, and you can innovate

to a point where you break it.
And when you break it, you've

lost people because you
innovated too much.

If you start the brand by
breaking, then you're not

breaking any.
You know, like that's you.

Then five people will drink
this.

But so it's a real trick to make
something different enough to

break through, but not so
different that it loses the

audience.
This thing with a movie, it's

the same with a book and that
song and everything.

It's like, that's what
resonates, is a great story with

a my twist and then it breaks
through and then it's, you know,

and then it's it's a global
smash, right?

You can be too art house, and if
you're too art house, you've

lost the audience.
And it's it's a little bit like

what you're saying in the book
with.

You know, discovering the world
bit by bit, Not like with the

Simpson, you know, you watch the
one episode of the Simpson you

you don't get it.
You know, like you get it's

funny, but you don't get the
old, you know, you you

understand who the father is or
the mother is or the brother and

sisters are, but you get to know
their Simpson family so well.

The jokes become funnier because
you understand all the different

levels of humor and that's what
keeps the core audience coming

back.
So but on that, on the surface

level, The Simpsons is just a
cartoon by the family.

So if I turn into it, it's
funny.

If I'm a kid, I can watch it,
but if I'm adult, I'm laughing

on a whole different level.
So a great brand is like The

Simpsons because you taste it.
Oh, this is great.

It's enjoyable.
But if you're a true fan,

there's so many hidden things
about it that you can adapt and

and talk about and yes,
evangelize with your friends

about.
And that's when things become

magical, is when you take a
simple concept, give it a slight

twist with the ingredients or
that or the liquid story that

took the slight twist and then
you add layer upon layer upon

meaning.
And when you do variance or line

extensions, the other thing I
always think about is why does

the variant have to be forever?
Like why can't liquid innovation

being marketed?
Why is that?

You know what I mean?
Like so we tend to challenge our

clients a lot of times and and
talk about how you need to get

the idea of what we call
creative grenade, just keeping

the brand fresh by launching
things into the into the world

that are exciting and give
people new reasons to talk about

your brand.
And sometimes they can be liquid

based, sometimes they're event
based towards like with Sailor

Jerry, like we used to send
cease and desist letters to

people that made Sailor Jerry
merch on their own on that seat.

And then we stopped doing that
and started reaching out to them

saying hey we love what you're
making.

We'd like to buy a hundred of
them and then we give them away

online, you know, so it's like
reversing the idea of brand

ownership and making it a lot
looser.

So stuff like that.
I mean there's a lot of ways to,

but it's a really the core is
like make it really simple what

your brand stands for, what it's
about and then tell the story

over and over again in fresh new
ways.

And don't like if you somebody
once remember it was feel what

kind it was that they appears to
us somehow paying Google to

alter the search for Hendricks
because they said there's no way

that brand can be that
consistent that when you Google

Hendricks and you do an image
search everything feels like it

was created by the same person I
said that it was.

And and that's at the hidden
ingredient of success on that

brand is that we got it right
from day one and we just kept

out and away at it and it's hard
to get it right on.

You know, there's other brands
too, like, you know, when we

launched Duns Whiskey, I
discovered the origins of the

Dunsk camp.
So it actually there was a guy

named John Dunskodas who was
considered the smartest man in

the world in the 1200.
And and he wore a pointy hat

because he believed that the
point channel that energy of the

heavens down into his brain,
which is, you know, comical

energy is a very real thing.
But the Pope was jealous of Duns

and his Dunsman, and he murdered
him.

And I think, I think the Pope in
the 20th century very recently

canonized the Duns because he
was like, you know, it was wrong

that we murdered this dude,
right?

But anyway, I thought it was
really cool that, you know, the

Duns cap was actually used to be
a sign of intelligence and then

became sign of security.
So we worked a lot of that into

the brand when we first started.
And I think it's still in there,

but I think it was overload on
the idea.

And I think people like, what
the hell is it?

What is?
What's going on?

So we've reverted back to more
to just being honest and saying

this brand's sort of the joke,
but now it's a joke and it's and

it's it's all that transparency
and all this stuff.

And so it's kind of like you
should pit it when something is

is not working.
You should pit it when you need

to get the story right.
You should pit it in real time

in the market.
I know it's hard when you have a

client and the client is like,
but I thought you told me this,

but you need to have room in a
brand to to make adjustments as

you move because that's how you
learn.

But the truth is, you need to
kind of get this.

You need to March something
fully formed and then just get

going.
So.

Yeah, what I like about that is
the is the fact that you you

need to be simple enough so that
the the first encounter it's

simple enough to understand, but
then you should not alienate.

The the core users because then
otherwise they get bored.

But you need to build
consistency.

I mean the the example always
bring is that the ritual on

Hendricks, the you know with the
cucumber, you know you don't

stop talking about the cucumber
just because everybody know

about it because there's always
new people coming into the

category.
You know, new legal drinking age

people, new bartenders, new
consumers, people that have

never heard about the brand.
So their first encounter must be

the Hue camber in the glass.
Well, it was also when we

started that nobody did that.
And it was, it was very new and

now everybody does it, but they
don't.

You keep going because you own
it and you got to keep doing it.

Yeah, and you don't.
You don't stop because you, a

brand manager, got bored of it
or you know, like, or

everybody's doing it.
So we don't do that anymore.

You know, like you need to keep
doing that.

That's always the hardest part
is, is when you work for.

It's not hard on my brands
because and I own them, but you

work for companies or any
company, new people come in and

out and they want to put their
sample on it and sometimes they

change things just for the sake
of changing them.

If you got it right in the 1st
place, you know, it's also like,

what was that brand new, the
Plymouth Gin.

I thought Plymouth had a great
package and then there was a

blip where they changed it, made
it really moderate and I was

like, Oh my God, what have you
done?

And I think they've gone back to
the older packaging now.

Brands make changes.
Those Rittenhouse Rye, it's an

American brand, used to have the
coolest old, old grandad kind of

package.
And then they upgraded it and

it's like, oh, now it's terrible
because it's fresh and it was

better when it was old.
I always say too, it's like

being a DJ at a party.
You got to know when to change

the record or when to you got to
read the audience to it.

Agree it's not like being blind
or like, no, we're staying the

course no matter what.
It's more like you have to know

when to put on something fresh
and when to when to change it

up, but in a way that gains you
back to the core idea.

And I think Brett like you named
it there on on the fact, I mean

I've been in the in my corporate
age so to say you know in S MB

Miller.
And I remember when you were

talking about that because when
I used to work on Peronius Zuro

before and then when when I
started to see really this cool

world that you were creating
with Pearson Oracle, you know I

got the, I think got the booklet
and.

You know, I fell in love with it
and I basically pitched on

working on Pearson report as
well.

So I worked on it in the, in
the, you know, in the Nordic

region and so on.
And then I was also you know

partly responsible with with the
team for their roll out of the

tank, the tank outlets across
Europe, now the Tankovnas.

And I remember those things
because I was part of it, but

then I've left the company and
I'm sure that. 90% of the people

working for the company now, I
mean I I hope they listen to the

episode so that they will find
out, but otherwise they will

never know because there is this
knowledge that gets lost when

people leave the company and if
the brand doesn't stick to it,

you know that that knowledge is
is over.

Yeah.
I was going to say too, it's

really interesting because the
packaging, it's, again, it's

magic.
Sometimes you just want it.

And good packaging needs to have
that.

Like, oh, what is that?
You know, Hendricks, famously

only one focus group was ever
done.

Everyone sat around the table,
put the bottle down.

Everyone immediately sat up and
grabbed the bottle, looked at

it, and then they said, what do
you think?

And they said, we hate this,
it's too weird.

But I remember the client
smartly said that's what we're

going with because you just, you
just see that reaction.

They reacted and I was like,
Yep, that's great.

So I feel like that pills are
the cans.

You instantly wanted them and
and I feel like it's a, you

know, the billion dollar
question, how do you create

stuff that has that magic while
you don't kill it with research,

it's what you don't do, right.
But at the same time it's like

we always say we use, we're not
against research, we just use

it.
We use it, test our hunches as

opposed to using it to find out
what to do.

And I think that's the key
because I'm like I'm very happy

to put something that I know is
great in front of the group

because I know they can agree
with me.

I know they're going to.
But also the other, the other

thing is that research is
expensive.

So I mean if I've got, if if
I've got 200 grand budget on a

brand, I don't want to spend
5060 grand on a research.

There's a new, there's a new
actually get what the research

program is.
But there's a slow research

program that it's pretty easy
to, I wouldn't say you

manipulate it, but you can
create things that will test

well because and that's that's
why not with awards is with

awards, because you can create
things for awards that will win,

but you can create packaging
that will test well and will

sail through the system.
Is it always the best packaging?

But we had a brand that we
launched called Fistful of

Bourbon, It's now dead.
They pulled it partially because

they launched it during Kylid,
which didn't didn't do it.

But I feel like that's an idea
that almost had a perfect score

in research.
Like they said they'd never seen

anything with that kind of score
and got into the market and it

it did Okay.
And I was like it's funny

because they went with the
packaging that we did the rough

mock up for for research.
I'm like why are you going out?

Because it tested well, I'm
like, yeah, but that wasn't

supposed to be in the packaging.
That was just like a thumbnail

point was like I think fistful
of bourbons are funny idea and

it was a really good idea in
terms of like you know when to

find bourbons.
But I don't know if people want

a jokey name in their bourbon,
right.

Yeah.
So there's like there's there's

stuff like that like.
So when that tested well.

But I kind of knew from the
star, you know we used to have a

store called G Mart.
It's, you know, we had our made

our bikini bandit movies and we
had our convenience store called

G Mart and G Mart sold funny
T-shirt and these T-shirts got

tons of press.
We would get pressed all over

the place.
But it turns out people didn't

want to wear a joke.
They they thought it was funny,

but they didn't want that joke
to be on their body.

So it's like I I I'm not sure
research is is always even

though it's something Tesla
doesn't mean it's going to work.

That's that.
Yeah.

And and and I think it's it's
also connected to the human need

and especially companies needs
to validate things now.

So they want to do stuff that is
measurable rather than you know

that they would rather measure
what they can measure rather

than what they should measure
right.

And as and launching a brands
are expensive and I get that I

get I get what you want to do
it.

I'm just saying like I'm not
sure like you know it's

interesting if I was a big
company I would do things very

differently.
First of all, I was first of why

big companies only only acquire
brands.

They don't, They don't start
them because they'd rather have

somebody else put all the hard
work into the elbow grease to

get it launched and then acquire
it because then the sure thing

and you know it works.
But if you're going to create

some new new to world product
and you're a big company, there

are ways to put it into test
into real world test market that

it actually works.
But then I guess you get into

all these issues with the sales
force, all those things.

But it's a complex thing.
But I feel like, hey, any big

company out there, listen to
this hire me.

I'll tell you how to do.
It's also like about that about

the fact that you need to give
time to brands to, you know, it

takes 20 years to make an
overnight success.

They say now, so it doesn't
happen.

I mean now that there was just
like some other news about, you

know, illegal mescal both by
Bacardi and like it was long 17

years ago.
I mean, and, you know, people

just see.
The bottle.

And they say, oh, look how they
done it.

You know, like, let's study
them.

Yeah, I mean, they, they worked
for 17 years before they got on

the map.
They got a distribution deal.

They got some equity stake in it
and now they and now they bought

them.
And first of all, many of those

things, they're not disclosed.
So you would never find out

unless you are an insider.
So that there's too much effort

about, you know, finding a
shortcut to finding the hack.

To find out out things.
Working hard on it, right?

Absolutely.
It takes 10 years for Brandon to

really take off.
It does.

It just does.
I'm sorry, there's something

that moves faster, but it takes
it out.

It takes.
That's that's what it takes to

get a any, any brand worth
anything off the ground.

Yeah.
And tell me like I'm curious.

Yeah, when you when I read on
the on the book like the fact

that you talk about.
Philly and you know the the fact

of not being and not having the
pressure of living in New York.

No and I know you you don't like
Brooklyn and I I heard it in

some of the the podcast and I
was smiling about that the like

what what is the power of a
small city or a smaller city.

I mean we cannot really say the
Philly is a is a small city but

what's the power of that
compared to a big city apart

from living but also in in
launching I mean that the the

fact that time we're distillery
in.

I'm sure, and you are, you are
making it big in you, I'm sure,

before moving on to other
states.

There's nothing to do in Philly
or in.

So all you do is you work
Philly's.

Philly is a big city, but it's
it's a weird city.

It's not a cool city, which is
what I think makes it cool.

It's a very working class city.
I mean it's like Liverpool or

Glasgow.
It's like a, you know, in

totally.
It's an industrial shithole,

right?
But it's my city and it's what

makes it work is that is that
you really, you get to work

right and you just you just
work.

And I feel like it's easier to
get launch things and play with

them and and to see what works.
Whereas if you launch something

in The New Yorker, even Austin
or any of these cool places,

they're jaded because they're
seeing so many things.

I think they take it for granted
that money's being thrown at

them in these markets.
I think it it releases the

pressure to experiment and to
try things when you're not in a

major metro.
You know it's also like like I

hate like Philly has no
marketing or advertising

community at all.
And so we're not trying to

compare ourselves to what our
neighbor you doing because we

have no neighbor.
And and like again it, it helped

me totally just shut out of the
marketing community.

So we never entered award shows.
The reason why we started Sailor

Jerry was we were making all
this money on tobacco and we

didn't enter award shows then
because as a tobacco agency

nobody wanted to know what we
were.

You know, we were Brian.
So we took that extra money

instead of plowing it into you
know Cleo awards.

We, we started our own brand and
one of those brands took off and

that's I also think, you know
it's amazing if you hire an ad

agency and they can't make their
own brands work, how are they

going to make your brand work?
There's a local agency in Chile

that has such an inferiority
complex to me and they had the

massive chip on their shoulder.
They either launched their own

gin and it just flopped it just
like hang.

And I just thought to myself, my
God, if you can't market your

own self, what are you doing so
proudly?

My brands work, the ones I want
for myself because.

And I think it seems to you to
be scrappy and selfaligned

because it's easy to if you're
like a multibillion dollar brand

and you do a little advertising,
you don't know if it worked or

not.
If you're a tiny little brand

and you launched some guerrilla
campaign, you'll know instantly

if it worked or not, right?
In Tamworth, we repeatedly

launched brands that go viral
globally like our our Crab

Trapper whiskey which is made
from invasive green crabs and

Beaver whiskey.
These whole wilderness series

we're doing, I mean I've gotten
10s of millions of dollars

impressed on those brands around
the world.

We got named food and wines
innovator of the year this year

deal like.
So it's like it's not like,

yeah, you guys created Hendricks
20 years ago.

What are you doing now?
Like doing a ton of work now,

and it's all getting accolades
and it's all getting like, you

know, it's blowing up around the
world.

And I feel like that's because
we know how to create things in

the real world and literally get
them going.

And it's it's the only know that
might do it.

Quit your job, fire your ad
agency.

Join the revolution.
Hire me.

I think it's also connected to
what you were saying at the

beginning about cultivating
curiosity.

Know that the fact that.
So for example, when I started

working, I started working in
Scandinavia and and building, I

mean I started with tobacco as
well and you know and drinks

brands in Scandinavia which is a
dark market.

So I never even dreamt of having
a budget for a TL never, you

know.
So my thinking and that's the

whole thing about the bottom,
the brands are built bottom up.

My kind of like Mozo is that
I've never had the luxury of

having somebody's money.
So for me it is about.

For me, it is about finding a
smart way, finding the foot in

the door, finding the way to get
into the menu, finding the way

to do it right by sweating on
it.

And I and I feel too many
companies, they get either

funded, they get a check and
it's like, oh, I've got

1,000,000 bucks.
Now what do we do?

Oh, let's buy the boot stand.
Let's do some big promo, Let's

do this, let's do that.
Let's hire 5 people and then

they don't know what to do
anymore.

So.
It comes from the fact that, you

know, always be active and see
what the world is doing and

where you can find a way.
Yeah, very effectively and

efficiently.
Now I I think the dark market

thing, it's interesting because
we always call tobacco the

marketing Marine Corps because
you learn how to be tough.

You learn how to get things done
with that any visible support,

right.
You gotta how do you sell

something that you're not
allowed to talk about, right.

So, and as we've noticed in the
drinks business, a lot of

markets have gone dark.
We know what to do.

I know exactly what to do
because I've been doing it for

30 years, right?
It's fascinating to me and this

whole discussion of below the
line, above the line, like, how

antiquated is that shit?
I mean, who talks about that?

It's it's insane to me.
So.

And and it like when I was in
SCB Miller and also I was

previously in Carlsberg and
actually came to to feel it

twice by during those times and
and it was very interesting for

me because.
I've always been working for

exports departments in these big
companies.

I was always the kind of like
the crazy punk gang, you know,

where we we had no budget.
We had weird way of expenses,

business trips and you know you
know like and and doing stuff

that we're like kind of like off
the radar.

But I never had budget, you
know, like in some markets I had

a budget of like €20,000 or
€15,000, so.

They were like we should do a
research to see if that works

and I'm not gonna do a research
to see if that works because

then otherwise I have no budget
to do it anyway.

Exactly, exactly.
So my research is asking 5

bartenders something.
Yeah exactly.

And you try it if it works.
Yeah, if you went really like

it, it works.
That's my research and a lot of

people are trapped into this big
data.

Thinking now like we need to
validate, validate, validate,

but you don't need to validate
your control state.

Example now is like 10 stores.
Does it sell?

Yes or no?
If it sells, we expand the

distribution.
If it doesn't sell, you're out

child.
Which is by the way that the way

algorithm works on social media.
If you think about it now,

because you post something, they
ship it out to 100 people, they

see how they react and then they
ship it to 1000 people.

They see how they react and then
it stops, you know, But people

try to look for, for hacks on
how do I go viral, how do I go

viral?
You don't go viral.

You know, like you you do stuff
consistently and nicely.

Well, yes.
And then something you're doing

like go viral.
And something, yeah, but you

keep watching those creative
grenades, something like like,

oh shit, that would work.
So people always ask, how did

you make Sailor Jerry with?
I'm like, we tried everything.

We never spent too much money on
anything.

We tried everything and if
something worked, we did a

little warm.
And if it didn't work, we

stopped doing it.
It's like I ain't that hard

guys, but it's like, but it's
also the hardest thing in the

world.
But it's interesting because up

in New Hampshire, it's like we
launched these crazy whiskeys,

but they drive the sales of
everything else.

There's only so much proud
whiskey you can drink.

But guess what?
I'm selling my bourbon for $100

a bottle and it's sold out all
the time.

My non crab bourbon, right.
So it's like there's ways of

accelerating your brand, but you
can.

I don't know, it's just more of
the story.

And then I got to go hard.
Stop, have fun.

Read my book, everyone.
You know, Ponzi scheme.

Give my book to a people at
Christmas.

Give it to your mother, your
uncle, I think.

Entire governments should read
my book.

The entire Czech government
should read my book.

OK.
Thank you.

I love that.
I love that.

And that's a great way of
closing closing this.

And I give you some space to
tell everyone of how to find you

and how to to find your products
and your and your agency.

OK, so Quaker City Mercantile is
the name of the agency.

Or in Philadelphia, you can buy
this on.

We're on social media.
We're on LinkedIn.

Tamworth Distilling is the name
of the distillery.

Follow us on on Instagram.
Look us up and if you're ever in

New Hampshire come see us.
It's worth a trip.

It's in the middle of nowhere
and the Pathfinder, I think.

I think the handle is drink the
Pathfinder look that up and I'm

on social too.
Stephen Grass look me up, but I

may or may not interact with you
or if you DM Mabel See I have to

see if you if you're a freak or
not so.

At least you did with me, you
replied to me on Instagram.

That was yes, I did.
If you're out, if you're in

Philly, come check us out, OK?
Get a cheese steak and a glass

of dunce whiskey and all will be
great with the world.

Fantastic.
Thanks a lot.

Even sure thing.
Talk to you later.

Thank you.
Bye, bye.

That's all for today.
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