Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: If you are a new leader or any leader, actually it can be difficult to strike the right tone. You don't wanna be a slave driver, but equally, you don't want to be a pushover or the kind of leader where people just dunno what's happening. Our guest on this episode of We Not Meet is Robyn Djelassi, Chief People Officer, non-executive director and coach, and she believes that the key is to understand the difference between being nice and being respected. This conversation also expanded to become a source of guidance for any leader at any stage of their career.
[00:00:35] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond
[00:00:42] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:43] Dan: And how the devil are you?
[00:00:45] Pia: Oh, not too bad. Not too bad. It's dry. The ducks are, are laying, we've had eggs. yeah, a couple. A couple every day. New ducks, baby ducks. I mean, well, they're sort of six, seven months old and it's the middle of winter, so it's quite unusual.
[00:01:03] Dan: It, I was gonna say, when we had chooks, when we had chickens, um, someone pointed out the other day, that's a thing that I've taken from Australia with me. I call chickens chooks. It's, it's one of those things you don't realize you're doing. Um, so yeah. Unusually in winter, right? For them to be laying
[00:01:16] Pia: yeah, so I had one as a Scrambled Delicious as ever. They are the
[00:01:21] Dan: Absolutely. Amazing. Amazing. And you've got a little squad of ducks there, which is
[00:01:26] Pia: We have 13. Uh, including the one, including the one that we integrated, that we had when we were, um, when it was, we lost all power. And so, you know, we were cuddling and that took, yeah, that took it a month or so to get back into being a duck. Still looks at us a little bit. Like hi.
[00:01:43] Dan: I think I'm one of those. Yeah. Look, we, I'm one of you. Yeah. But I love your, um, your, your little, your experiment and inclusion there. It's very, very, we can't stay away from teams. Whatever you, uh, whatever you try. And, um, what, talking about teams, what are you seeing out there? What's, how's your, in your client work, what are you seeing?
[00:02:00] Pia: you know, I wonder how much, young leaders feel about becoming a. The mantle of leadership and how, how appealing it is and how well they've been supported and guided into those roles. You know, a lot's happened in the last sort of six years post COVID hasn't been easy.
[00:02:19] Pia: but I don't feel like we've had a real focus on leadership. Development in that time. I think it's coming back. Um, but that's had an impact. I think that's, that's my sense that we've all been busy being busy. Um, and it just wasn't a priority.
[00:02:35] Dan: Yeah, I, I think I'm right in saying just I'm plucking figures from my brain here, but I think only one in five new leaders get any development, um, when they make that sort of transition and about, and there's been a 70% cut in leadership development budgets in the last couple of years. So, um, it's quite significant what's happened there, I think.
[00:02:53] Dan: And are you, are you seeing the, what's the, are you seeing that sort of flowing through you? Is it evident in the teams you are working with?
[00:03:01] Pia: you know, I, I remember one. A guy on a leadership program saying to me, as a senior leader, what proportion of my time should I be being a leader? Well, a a hundred percent would be a good start. so I think that we've set people up to advance their career based on their task completion and their technical prowess, We haven't paid much attention to the more rounded leadership and management skills that go with that. uh, but they'll still get promoted and then find themselves, not clear about what these initial steps are, um, and what to do. And, and I think that's where. I'm hoping today's guest is going to shine some
[00:03:41] Dan: Yeah, no,
[00:03:42] Pia: and, and actually give those people that might be listening some really easy steps to think
[00:03:46] Dan: exactly, I mean, speaking personally, when I, I didn't have any development at all when I stepped up into that first leadership role, and I totally misunderstood it. Um, but Robyn Djelassi's gonna put a straight. Today she's a, um, consultant now. She's been CHR of many companies, uh, but she's now a consultant supporting organizations in harnessing their people to deliver business results.
[00:04:10] Dan: And she, so she has just this really broad experience and an in a pragmatic, um, and sort of convention challenging approach to these things, particularly around. This challenge when you start leadership, whether you want to be liked or respected. And we'll dive into, into that with Robyn. So let's go over and hear the conversation now.
[00:04:32] Pia: And a very big welcome to the Mornington peninsula, right down south in Australia on a chilly evening to Robyn Djelassi. Nice to meet you.
[00:04:43] Robyn: Nice to meet you Pia. Thank you for having me.
[00:04:45] Pia: Oh, pleasure. so as everyone knows who listens to this, we have a little simple process, which means that we don't give you the luxury of answering our questions. Uh, we put you in the torture chamber where you actually have to, um, face a red and orange or a green card, which Mr. Hammond will be doling out as we ask you on the spot type questions.
[00:05:09] Dan: And welcome Robyn. Welcome Robyn. Great to have you on the show. And just to spoil it for you, this actually you've got a green card. We've had a run of greens recently. My one guilty pleasure is what is your guilty pleasure?
[00:05:22] Robyn: Oh, Dan, it has to be a glass of pinot, doesn't it? A glass of Pinot Noir. I would love to tell you that I'm ATO Plus, particularly given that we are recording this in July, dry July. However, I have been known to, even on a weekday crack
[00:05:38] Pia: To indulge
[00:05:39] Robyn: pinot it to Indu.
[00:05:41] Dan: Are you not though supporting the local economy by doing that, is that not, this is not virtue in some way.
[00:05:46] Robyn: Absolutely. I like to support the, the local, uh, retailers of, uh, of God's greatest gift and also it's medicinal. It's very cold here in the mornings in Peninsula. Thank you, Pia, and it keeps me nice and warm.
[00:05:59] Dan: Excellent. Oh, very good. That's a nice thought and perfect for the Mornington Mornington Peninsula to hear, hear that as your Yeah, it just seems very local to do that. Marvelous. And so, Robyn, tell, tell us how you got here onto this show to the Mornington Peninsula. Give us a bio in a box for Robyn Djelassi.
[00:06:17] Robyn: Yeah, sure. Well, actually I'm a girl originally from Adelaide who decided that she wanted to study computer science. Now, Dan, that might come as a surprise to you given how terrible I was at getting my audio set up for this
[00:06:31] Dan: Listener. Listener, she was amazing, very deft all over the setting. So don't, uh, don't pay any attention.
[00:06:39] Robyn: it'll shock you further to know that I was pretty terrible with computer science, but found out very quickly that I was great with people. And so my career kicked off, uh, working with people in the IT field. My first real role in human resources was an HR director role. Somebody took a punt on me with a beautiful four month old baby.
[00:06:59] Robyn: And, uh, took me into their executive team, uh, gentleman who is still a great friend of mine today. Gentleman by the name of John Roland, He grew my career and I am, I eventually ended up heading up operations, found my way back to HR with other businesses, and I've been working with startups, scale ups, and eCom businesses for quite some time.
[00:07:20] Robyn: Um, until recently, I started my own business where we consult to a range of organizations across Australia on all things hr. We do it a little bit differently though.
[00:07:31] Pia: What does that mean?
[00:07:34] Robyn: Well, the team and I are not necessarily warm and fuzzy HR people. Um, I believe that we have family and friends to fulfill those requirements in our lives. Certainly HR people can be warm and fuzzy, but we're not trained to be. It's not something that we do better or differently to others. I believe the role of a HR is to create great value for the business and help an organization reach its objectives through their people.
[00:08:02] Robyn: And you can't help people to realize their own objectives, let alone the businesses unless they're safe psychologically. Physically, unless they have targets and goals that resonate with them, they understand what they need to achieve and they have a leader showing them the way. That's HR not giving you a cuddle when you have a sick pet. So we do it a little bit differently. We do it commercially and we do it with a bit of heart as well.
[00:08:27] Pia: well that sounds interesting. So that sounds like, you know, you've got a bit of heart and a bit of tough love in there. so you know, Dan and I talk endlessly about teams today and where teams are at, and we are seeing that there's quite a rise of younger leaders who haven't necessarily had the training and development.
[00:08:48] Pia: Partially ' cause of COVID and, and all the restrictions of that and are now thrust into maximizing a team and getting the most out of them, and being responsible and accountable for, I think ever intensifying expectations.
[00:09:03] Robyn: Absolutely Pia. I see a lot of that and not only. Post COVID. Uh, in my experience, new leaders tend to gravitate towards one of two ways. General is a very bold generalization here, one of two different modes of leading, and that is we either emulate the toughest leader we've ever had because we think leadership is management and it's being tough.
[00:09:28] Robyn: Or alternatively, we want to be your friend. I just wanna be loved. I'm not sure if you've seen the movie Mean Girls. Of course you have. And the mom who says, I'm not like other moms. I'm a cool mom. I see a lot of those leaders. I'm not like other leaders. I'm a cool leader. And they're generally the leader who will let you get away with anything you like because they value being liked more than they value being respected. They'd like to be one of the gang as opposed to your leader.
[00:10:00] Robyn: And that can come with all sorts of issues. as does the polar opposite of being a really tough leader in your first gig. We're not taught how to do this stuff, but certainly I am seeing a lot of leaders today, um, err on the side of wanting to be liked and loved and part of the gang, which can cause a whole raft of issues in the corporate world because we need to be respected before we can be liked.
[00:10:26] Robyn: And we need to earn that respect first.
[00:10:28] Dan: So we want to dive into that, Robyn. Well, what are the problems that are arise from that sort of call mum, um, approach to
[00:10:37] Robyn: Yeah. The cool, the cool mom approach to leadership. Well, look, um, Harvard Business Review found back in 2012, so I respect that that was quite some time ago, that leaders who are respected at 12 times more likely to be seen as effective then those who are simply light. Because respect is tied to competence.
[00:10:57] Robyn: It's tied to fairness, and it's tied to consistency. So likability may get people to show up every day, handing out the sweets, being the good guy, and like you might get people showing up every day, but you are not going to have people engaged and willing to follow you. You must first be respected before you can be liked. It's a much more effective tactic.
[00:11:21] Pia: So What's happening in the workplace that these younger leaders are not getting, that, I guess those older role models, their own, what are they seeing? Are they seeing basically that, um, what was it, was it the, what was another previous guest called it? The Bastard Leader or the Bastard
[00:11:37] Pia: something,
[00:11:38] Dan: yes. Yeah, yeah. Um, the business bastard, wasn't it?
[00:11:41] Pia: business Bastard. I knew it would come back, yeah. So is it that, is it that. We've had a very quick transition and we've had a, we haven't had enough role models that, that young leaders are then almost swinging more to. Well then I, I'd like, I, I want to be light rather, and they don't even know what respect it is. I, I dunno. I'm, I'm, not sure.
[00:12:02] Robyn: I think there is a lot of that pr I think it, it is an overcorrection, overcorrection, certainly post COVID, but also generationally. And I'll get myself in a world of, uh, issues and problems and, and debate here. However, my experience is, um, as a Gen Xer.
[00:12:19] Robyn: Um, I was taught that I am to earn a job. Nobody is, uh, entitled to a job. Ex-military father, you turn up every day and you give 110% and they might let you show up again tomorrow. That's how I was taught, how I teach my children to, uh, to do well and to commit and, and, and have. Is. To be resilient is very different to the way that I was taught resilience. Um, and resilience can certainly back in my day just be code for shutting up and getting it done.
[00:12:51] Robyn: Today we, we teach children, to be kind, to be considerate, to talk about their feelings. We didn't have those outlets when I was coming up, and so I think what we are now seeing is an overcorrection to what Gen X. And why to some extent we are dealing with back in the day and still are. Our work ethics certainly are very different generally to the younger generations.
[00:13:17] Dan: I think when, when we were exchanging messages about your coming onto the show, I, I ha I must, I slightly reacted to this word respect. and maybe this is a generational thing, but I think when, um, when I was growing up as a leader, if I ever did, um, you know, that respect was used equally as that's changed, I think potentially in from being sort of, you respect me, IE.
[00:13:41] Dan: This is what the leaders were saying to me when I was sort of in my twenties and thirties. You respect me by doing what I say. That's respect, you know what I mean? It's sort of, you are not respecting me because you are contradicting me, or you are arguing or you're difficult or, um, whatever. So I, I realized I had this slight, um, yeah, this reaction to that word and it, it might be a, again, a generational thing, but it's, it was, yeah. I dunno if you, if you can relate to that or if there's a way of seeing me through that to a different word or a way of seeing it.
[00:14:12] Robyn: I think respect for me is probably different to the respect that that you are speaking of, when I talk about respect in the workplace and respect for leaders, I'm speaking specifically about treating adults like adults. And so for me to respect somebody, they can't treat me like a child, and I'm seeing a lot of leaders treat their teams as children. So it is difficult to respect somebody who, who treats you that way.
[00:14:39] Robyn: Um, so it's, um, almost a, um, learned helplessness that we are seeing in teams where leaders will treat, um, staff in or their people in a way that lowers their, their performance. so leaders who take on too much responsibility, they strip others of a chance to build their capability.
[00:14:58] Robyn: If you can show somebody how something is done as opposed to doing it for them and avoiding that learned helplessness, you will gain respect for your skills. You'll gain respect for the way that you're engaging with an adult, treating that adult like an, like an adult and not a child. That's the respect I'm talking about, not about titles or age or status, that that's not what I'm talking about yeah,
[00:15:24] Dan: So Robyn, the phrase that's popping into my mind now is psychological safety. Now we, we, there's a lot of talk about this in the LinkedIn ti among the li, LinkedIn ti and we've talked about a lot on this show as well. How do these things fit together? What's your point of view on this?
[00:15:39] Robyn: Well I believe that some of the earlier research on psychological safety, which was conducted by Amy Edmondson, um, at Harvard's Harvard Business School is often misused. I believe that psychological safety is not about avoiding discomfort. For me, it's about ensuring people feel safe to take risks, to speak up and try even if they fail and we need to let people fail, it's okay.
[00:16:09] Robyn: So psychological safety isn't about being nice, it's about candor, clarity, and courage. And I'm actually quoting Amy Edmondson there. So for me, a psychologically safe culture allows for failure and feedback. Without shame or fear or punishment, we're not about treating adults like children. Let's have adults do the work.
[00:16:33] Robyn: Coach them. Coach them, not rescue them, and be there to catch them and show them if things do go wrong or if they fail, it's okay. We all fail. That is actually how we learn.
[00:16:44] Dan: that's, that makes, that makes perfect sense. The, however, in the world in which we are seeing our clients operate, failure is really not encouraged. I can un I understand. Yeah. I, I've written, I've tried you doing some small thing and that didn't work, so I'm gonna, now I can do something different. I've learned. Actually failure is not an option. It's breathing down everyone's necks and causing quite a bit of, you know, I'm missing my numbers. That's a failure.
[00:17:12] Robyn: and it feels like another over overcorrection, Dan. Um, we might remember the Tech Bros back in the nineties. Obviously you're not old enough, but let
[00:17:20] Dan: No, no, no. I was at primary school.
[00:17:23] Robyn: yeah,
[00:17:23] Dan: Carry on.
[00:17:25] Robyn: there was, you know, fail fast. It was something that we all said fail fast and then try again. I haven't heard that for a really long time, but what I have heard, and in fact was speaking to a colleague about only yesterday, was the new buzzword or a, a renewed buzzword, uh, which is, um, imposter syndrome.
[00:17:47] Robyn: I'm seeing the linked in ti talk a lot about imposter syndrome as well, and I believe that a, that is due to this fear of failing. I explained to my colleague, she thought I was mildly narcissistic. I have never suffered from imposter syndrome, and it's not because I think I'm fantastic. Ask my children, they'll tell you I'm really not.
[00:18:13] Robyn: But it is because I do the work and when I show up to a board meeting, I know I've done the work and I've earned my place on that board. When I show up to my executive team meetings, I've done the work, I've earned that place, and if I fail, and I do often daily as a matter of fact, I know it's okay. I pick myself up and I keep going. So the fear of failure, I believe, may have had something to do with us believing that psychological safety is about coddling our uh, colleagues. Potentially with this resurgence of talk around, imposter syndrome, we can fail. Nobody's going to die. In most jobs, nobody dies.
[00:18:59] Pia: Unless you happen to be an air traffic controller or
[00:19:01] Robyn: There is that Pia. Yes.
[00:19:04] Pia: it's an really interesting 'cause, I mean, you know, I, I look back on when I first started working, sort of, you know, 30 plus years ago, well, yeah, probably more than that. And you felt in that workplace that you were the junior burger. That that you didn't wanna make mistakes that you did have to watch and learn and when the pressure was on, everybody was looking at you to see whether you succeeded or failed. and. Well, there was no such thing as psychological safety. There was no such thing as awareness really. Um, it was just that you were being paid to do a job and that was the expectation, but people were still friendly and fair and kind often.
[00:19:46] Pia: But I wonder whether. We created an expectation in the workplace of, uh, like a standard that we were all trying to aim towards. And I wonder whether some of those standards have changed or, um, are different or we don't have people setting that anymore. And so we've got a lot more freewheeling.
[00:20:07] Robyn: Perhaps, I think, I wonder whether we are perhaps too polite as well. And by that I mean in order for a team to be effective. And Google backs this up with, with a study that they did called Project Aristotle, which i'm sure you've heard of. They found that top performers and top teams had had, uh, four things in common, and they were clear goals.
[00:20:29] Robyn: I see a lot of businesses not define goals for their people or share their organizational goals. We did some work recently with a business who chose not to share their corporate strategy. Just their 12 month, their H one plan. What's my first horizon? What do we want to achieve? When I, when I said to them, let's share those goals with the team, your broader organization of 130 people, and ask them to shoot in this direction because that's where we want to go.
[00:21:01] Robyn: And we put together some really basic stuff, right? A balanced scorecard, and it's really hard to fail if you've got 130 people all aiming in that direction. It's gonna be really hard to fail. We have to try pretty hard to, to fail. So clear goals are really important for people. They want to feel a part of something and I'm not sure we're communicating that as well as we should for fear of upsetting people or, or being seen as a micromanager.
[00:21:27] Robyn: This whole clear is kind rhetoric does drive me crazy. However, it's true. Dependability as well. I think, um, if we are dependable as leaders and as team members, that's really important to our success. And another thing that Project Aristotle found that top performers had in common psychological safety.
[00:21:48] Robyn: As I said earlier, it's okay to fail and pick yourself back up and know that you won't be punished for that. It's part of the human condition. As I said, I do it daily and it's okay. I don't doubt myself for that. I say, what did you learn? I call it school fees. What school fees did I pay today? What did it cost me to learn?
[00:22:08] Robyn: And that's all right. And the last thing was balance with support and challenge, which is really important. So when I talk about leadership and, and treating adults like adults, which is my entire philosophy on team leadership. Treat a fully formed adult, like a fully formed adult and expect that they will act like one if they don't.
[00:22:30] Robyn: It's a really different discussion, but balance the support you are giving your team members with challenge. So that was the fourth element of top performers in Project Aristotle. So it's not perks or smarts that make an effective team, it's how we treat each other. For me, the key finding from that study.
[00:22:50] Pia: think that's, I think that's fascinating because, you know, how we treat each other is the dynamics of the team that makes such a, such a key part of it. so if a, if a new leader is listening to this Robyn and they're thinking, right, okay. I'm kind of clear about, so I, I've gotta be respected. As opposed to being liked.
[00:23:11] Pia: And, and I honestly do think that leadership is an incredibly lonely job. If you're doing it really well, it's not easy. and you are often the first person to make the hardest decisions with people that you really like and respect, and you're gonna hurt them.
[00:23:23] Pia: Um, and, you know, a part of leadership is making, sometimes making, letting people go and, and not always in great circumstances. And that's a, that. That definitely builds a muscle. But for people who find themselves, you know, in this position where they've been promoted, how can we guide them? What things should they be thinking about? You talked about
[00:23:43] Robyn: Well, I've, I've got a, a, little bit of a framework for you, Pia, that, that I use with my new leaders. But before I start, there's one thing I will say around respect and that is. For all new leaders, share a little bit of yourself, be a little bit vulnerable. In order to respect you, I need to know a little bit about you, and that means admitting your own failings, admitting that you don't know something.
[00:24:07] Robyn: It's okay. We don't have to pretend we have all of the answers. It's incredible. The respect you'll build. Your team will just res, will resonate with your team to say, I don't know. That's really important to me that I get it right for you. Let me find out. That's how we build respect.
[00:24:25] Robyn: And so the framework that I have that I take all new leaders through is going to sound ridiculous. Guys. Bear with me. All right. It spells adults. Again, we treat adults like adults. Let's go.
[00:24:39] Robyn: The A is accountability over approval. Okay? So don't lead to be liked. Lead to be trusted and set clear expectations with your team. Okay, so think to yourself, am I being clear or am I just trying to be liked? Be clear first.
[00:24:57] Robyn: So that's a accountability over approval. D debrief, don't rescue. So when mistakes happen, resist fixing them for your team. Use it as a learning moment. It's an adult, not your child. So ask what happened? What did you learn? What do you think we should do differently? Don't jump in and rescue the you is uncomfortable, is useful.
[00:25:21] Robyn: So growth lives in challenge, not comfort. And if you have children, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's really hard. It's really hard to stop them from falling over when you can see they're about to run into a brick wall or they, they're just being a silly duffer. It's really hard, but that's how kids learn.
[00:25:41] Robyn: We as adults continue to learn that way as well. So growth lives in challenge, not comfort, and don't smooth the edges. People will grow through the stretch, stretch them. People want careers and they want challenge. The L is let go of control. As leaders, we often think we need to be master and commander of all that we survey.
[00:26:00] Robyn: It's not true. Delegate the outcomes, not just tasks. Really important for new leaders. Certainly we're accountable, but we don't need to be responsible for everything. As a leader, there's a difference there. So let go of control and step back so you can see others. Step up and just check in with yourself and think, have I made it clear what success looks like?
[00:26:21] Robyn: Let go of that control and think about that. And then the next one would be T for we're, we're on the T for adults, guys trust before proof. Trust. Trust people before they burnt it. It builds confidence in you. They let you down. There's a discussion to be had, trust them before they burn it. And micromanagement kills ownership.
[00:26:42] Robyn: Let them go. Let let your people show you what they can do. You will learn so much from them. Because learning is a two way street. I'm sure I get more from my team than they do from me. I learn from them every day. And then the last one is S. So say less really hard for me. Say less. Ask more. So coaching versus telling.
[00:27:01] Robyn: Use questions to help people think for themselves. Say less, ask the questions and then zip it. Let people figure things out with your, with your guidance. So ask some prompting questions like, what's your next step? What do you think the real issue is here? Let your adults figure it out for themselves. You will probably learn something along the way as well.
[00:27:21] Robyn: So it sounds quite complex, but it spells it all. So, accountability. I have approval, debrief. Don't rescue. Uncomfortable is useful, like go of control, trust before proof. Say less, ask more.
[00:27:33] Dan: it, as you say, it's, it's, it's sort of a real, just a little in a box That's a leadership toolkit right there. Or a sort of daily reminder, isn't it? I think it's, it's. It's excellent. And the, the acronym, the, or the acrostic, whatever we call it, is, uh, is very handy as well. 'cause it's, it's built into that, uh, adult thing that trust before proof, uh, jumped out for me.
[00:27:53] Dan: I heard, again, someone saying recently, trust, uh uh, this is what I do with leadership trust, but verify and you think, well, and it's quite interesting really. And actually what he was saying was, don't trust, just verify. Quite inter Yeah. Really what he did was he just. S quite interesting, but I like trust before is an easier to understand than that. It's. Yeah, it's all in there. It's all in there.
[00:28:15] Dan: So, so Robyn, if, if we, if our listener, um, I'm, who I'm sure is stopped by the side of the road to take some notes at this point, this, um, this will be in the, uh, in the, uh, in the show notes. Where would you encourage them to start? That is, that is quite a, um, it's a sort of.
[00:28:32] Dan: It's a substantial sort of body of things to do. And remember there where, where would you encourage them to sort of make a start in this direction? Towards moving from nice to respected
[00:28:43] Robyn: start at the A start at top down. So accountability, over approval. Don't lead to be liked. Lead to be trusted. That's where I would start with those clear expectations, set them and let your people know and lead from there.
[00:29:00] Robyn: For me, work is personal, business is personal, and particularly team leadership. So again, we start with some vulnerability. Share a little bit, little about yourself with your team. Sit down with your, with your individuals because they are just people like you, and let them know what your expectations are of them in their role.
[00:29:22] Robyn: I'm not saying pull out a position description where you look at those ones and we them away. What do you need to achieve? Show me what success looks like. if I am successful, what will be true? These things will be true. Share that with people. We often expect people to guess what we need and to just inherently understand what good looks like.
[00:29:47] Robyn: We need to paint a picture, and if that means showing them along the way how we get there, then so be it. Set the expectations, make them clear, and then lead that individual to success. Your job is to ensure your people are successful, not you, but that your team is
[00:30:06] Robyn: successful.
[00:30:07] Dan: Thank you. That's a great place to start. I'm glad you said the a because, uh, that, that makes perfect sense. And the, the, uh, the, the, the, the framework works, uh, really well. So, um, Robyn, it is been, um, fascinating to get into these, the reality this, I feel it's very pragmatic. Your, your thinking. take us, give us, leave us. Could you, with a, um, with a media recommendation, what, uh, what would you point our listener to? Yeah.
[00:30:32] Robyn: Okay. I have recently become mildly obsessed with the new podcast by the wonderful Antoinette Lotuff and Jan Fran here in Australia. We Used to Be Journos is the name of the podcast, It is a fabulous, listen, I listened to their second episode this morning. It's a podcast about the media. It's a critique and it is a fantastic listen. I love it. A couple of fantastic females, fierce women who I admire, and they are both journalists.
[00:31:05] Robyn: They critique the media. A couple of truthtellers. I really enjoy their stories. I don't agree with everything they say and do. However, I find them incredibly candid, incredibly powerful, and a fantastic listen. I, I like to hear the inside stories of what really goes on in media and why we are served, what we are served to read, watch, and listen to.
[00:31:27] Dan: Excellent. Thank you so much Robert, and thank you for being on the show today. And, uh, I think you, the breadth, the, the sort of, yeah, the breadth of your experience is invaluable, I think to be able to see all of these things and, uh, this theme I think is, I think you'd agree, Pia, when we see these leaders who are sort of undertrained and over overburdened, um, this could, this will be a really useful toolkit for them. So thank you so much.
[00:31:51] Robyn: I hope so. Thank you. Great to meet you.
[00:31:57] Pia: I really like the distinction that Robyn made at the beginning about new leaders, either slightly polar, either emulating toughest leaders or trying to be a friend. And, and neither of those, of those are demonstrations of leadership. You know, leadership is, um, about. Setting a clear direction and supporting your people to deliver on the outcomes of that direction, and making decisions, putting things in place, setting up the conditions, you know, that's our famous set up the clarity, develop the right climate or environment and ways of working and build people's competence, and then let them get on with it.
[00:32:40] Dan: And, and that. So yes. And constantly be monitoring those conditions to make sure they have what they need as individuals to succeed, isn't it? So, um, and that's not a. Yeah, as you say that, that IC sort of view of leadership of which type I'm gonna be, I think I, I'd throw into that mix this sort of, you see some leaders going from the, it's a little bit like the sort of authoritarian, dictatorial to the.
[00:33:05] Dan: to the le to the laissez fair. I think sometimes even servant leadership can be read as, oh, everyone can do whatever they want, and autonomy is really important, so let's just go off and do. That's not if you pass the lens over it of are you creating the conditions for these? This person's success, as you say, it's neither, it's certainly not zero clarity, and it's not micromanagement either.
[00:33:28] Dan: You know, it's, it's really finding this sort of constructive space in the middle. And I think, actually, I think this is what makes leadership so hard because it's not a paint by numbers thing. It's a, you're, you're striking this balance for individuals.
[00:33:40] Pia: And you're often inspired by somebody that has led you, You see something in their style that, that you find, relates to yours, makes you believe that you can be a bigger, a bigger person with more to offer through that leadership and that it's it's not a just a. Grind your way up the corporate ladder.
[00:34:01] Pia: So that worries me a little bit with, are there enough of those people and then on a world stage we just have a pantomime of leadership. It's just utterly ridiculous
[00:34:11] Dan: And it's still referred to as leadership, isn't it? It's, yeah.
[00:34:14] Pia: I, I wish they would choose another word for it because it isn't leadership.
[00:34:18] Dan: Yeah, I've got a few words, but I don't think I can share them on a podcast. Um.
[00:34:22] Pia: and it, when the quality decreases in the way that it has, then of course people feel a bit like, well, God, I'm, I, I don't wanna be doing that. I don't, I don't, I dunno what to do. I haven't been shown any role modeling. I'll, I'll keep safe.
[00:34:35] Dan: so you've, in this, if we bring this to the, now you are right. You've got these terrible role models. and then the other end, I can see that a leader with humanity. Leading in these where there's huge pressure and people are feeling precarious about their job. There are redundancies.
[00:34:55] Dan: AI is coming in, the pressure is on. I mean, you know. The, the, the pressure from shareholders now to deliver to them is, is immense. You know? And while there's a cost of living crisis in many Western countries, the, um, profits of corporations are higher than ever. So, and the people who have to deliver that are in the organizations in that environment, a humane leader, I can understand how they could really think, actually, I just need to be really nice because everything else is not, um, and I think that's a temptation that needs to be resisted, which actually, because people are ultimately helped, not by that sort of niceness rescuing, but actually by holding that middle ground, we, we've got a job to do here.
[00:35:38] Dan: How can we, do, you know what I mean? It's just, I think there's a temptation to, to be the, and it's humane. To sort of say, actually we're going to be, I'm going to be the person who is giving you some positive, something humane in this situation. But you, again, you can overcorrect on that and lose the clarity that will ultimately help those people to succeed.
[00:35:59] Pia: and you know, as I think as we mentioned that there, there property has been less investment in people. in the art of leadership and leadership is a science and art. There are definite models, ways of seeing things, but it's experience. It's your maturation over time. It's making difficult decisions. It's keeping, you know, having confidence to do it.
[00:36:20] Pia: And I think that what Robyn gave us in terms of some of those, like those key things. That new leaders should be thinking about and she's got it very su succinctly put, was really valuable. And I think there, you know, people who are about to take on that role, you, you, you, you know that, that's a fantastic place to start.
[00:36:41] Dan: And that framework, uh, uh, sort of encapsulates, gives a simple guide but also ate, encapsulates the natural contradictions and complexity and nuance of this thing in, in a way that's actually helpful. I think so. Yeah. Really, really, really. So I think this is a great episode for anyone who is starting out on their leadership journey and trying to.
[00:37:02] Dan: As we said, figure out and avoid these polarities. But, um, yeah, wonderful conversation. But that is it for this episode. We Not Me is supported by Squadify. Squadify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance. You can find show notes where you're listening and squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends.
[00:37:21] Dan: Win Not Me is produced beautifully by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:37:28] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.