098 | Paul Thomas | Good vs. Bad Market Research: From Bars to Boardrooms | Suntory Global Spirits

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this return appearance on the Maffeo Drinks podcast, Paul Thomas, whom host Chris Maffeo dubs "the king of insights," shares wisdom on how to escape the marketing "ivory tower" and understand real consumer behavior.

Paul advocates for marketers to personally observe products in various venues rather than relying solely on data.

The conversation examines how brands should adopt occasion-based marketing over demographic targeting, striking a balance between aspirational positioning and pragmatic distribution strategies.

Paul critiques the research industry's shift toward "faster and cheaper" methodologies at the expense of quality, encouraging brands to conduct fewer but better studies.

The episode concludes with advice on creating an "insight ecosystem" that balances qualitative observations with quantitative data, emphasizing the value of curiosity in understanding how consumers interact with drink brands in different contexts.

Timestamps:

0:00 Introduction to Maffeo Drinks Podcast

00:19 Welcoming Back a Special Guest

01:00 Diving into Key Topics

02:00 Understanding Consumer Insights

05:46 The Reality of Market Segmentation

07:57 Strategies for Brand Placement

14:09 The Importance of Research

31:56 Balancing Qualitative and Quantitative Data

36:18 Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Paul Thomas

Global Head of Insights | Suntory Global Spirits

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast where brands are built

bottom up.
I'm Chris Mafael and in each

episode me and a new guest crack
how drinks go from 1 bottle to 1

case to 1 pallet hit follow and
leave a review to help new

drinks builders find it.
Now let's break it down

together.
Hi Paul, welcome to the Mafia

Drinks podcast.
Hi Chris, nice to be here again.

That's the first time we've had
a a guess for the second time

and it's a honour to have you
because as I named you last

time, you're the king of
insights for me.

Well, I appreciate that nickname
is still not caught on globally,

but hopefully this second
opportunity might reinforce it.

I see you have one of your
shirts, so I'm really honoured

about that as well.
I've just flown back from two

weeks in India, Chris and all of
my good shirts are in the

washing machine or drying.
Therefore, I'm down to the

clothes that my wife won't let
me leave the house in.

Let's dive in.
I've prepared a set of questions

for you and because it's the
second episode that we do

together.
I want to touch base on quite a

few items.
But the fact that we shouldn't

be in the ivory tower, that's a
big topic for us and inside

start coming from sitting at the
bar.

We all agree with that something
about research methodology

because you know, my aversion
for focus groups and research as

such and I'm more of a qual
qualitative guy.

But I understand and I
acknowledge the fact that there

is a need for quantitative
especially for big companies.

And then I want to talk about
occasion based marketing,

adaptation of occasions.
How do we bring cocktail culture

to scale?
Because this is one of the top

exam focusing on lately.
How do we get out of the 50 best

bars, bubble and echo chamber to
bring cocktail culture to the

world?
Sounds like a plan to me.

So let's dive in.
So I want to quote you on

something you wrote on LinkedIn
some time ago.

You said you're not your
consumer, you're miles away.

Get out there.
Yeah, where it came from is I

had a group of my team coming
over from Spain and Germany and

I organised some like store
visits, not bars, but

supermarkets.
There can be a temptation when

you're in your home market to
say I don't need to go, I don't

need to go.
I know Tesco's, Sainsbury's,

Waitrose, but we, we did them in
South London, we did these store

checks in Vauxhall and it
quickly dawned on me that living

in Surrey with my online
Waitrose order arriving once a

week, the real world is very
different out there.

You know, I, I had never seen a
situation before where every

bottle in the spirits aisle had
security netting.

So all of these attempts we make
with point of sale and

advertising to premiumized
brands.

You then arrive in the
supermarket and Nets over

everything, even own label
spirits, even no and low

spirits, everything.
There was a Sainsbury's right

next to Vauxhall station.
The ready to drink cans had a

security cap on it.
And as I was standing there with

my colleagues, like jaw on the
floor, a young guy with a big

coat walks past us, grabs three
of these, puts them in his

pocket, runs out the store.
And you know, you read in the

papers how there's a theft
epidemic in London, but it just

goes to show how far away you
can be from the real people, the

real shelves, the real
supermarkets or the real bars,

even in your home market.
And it's just sort of talking to

me.
There's a need to get out there

more when we sit in our ivory
towers and talk about point of

sale strategy in the in the off
premise.

And then you start to go, how do
we premiumize our brands?

And then you see the reality of
those supermarkets.

It makes you think very
differently about whether the

off premise at the moment is
that Channel.

Wow, wow.
So I guess we're not going to

solve here the theft crisis and
epidemic.

But it's it, it tells me a lot
about the fact that, you know,

it goes back to our discussions
about PowerPoint presentation.

You know, you tend to always
think, you know, London Heathrow

and the Selfridges and the
Waitrose and on.

Whenever you want to scale, you
go from Selfridges to Waitrose

rather than from Waitrose to
Sainsbury and Tesco.

And it tells us a lot about the
exercise that we must do to get

out of the of the echo chamber,
the marketing bubble, the the

ivory towers.
And the equivalent for me as

well, you know, if we go back to
the bar, which is always my

favorite place to be, it's so
easy to go to the top 50 where

your sales team have already
prepared the bartender to make

sure your brands are on the back
bar and they're naturally

completely spontaneously going
to recommend your brand for the

cocktail.
Go in and go into a Mitchell and

Butler's chain, go into a
Wetherspoons, go into a local

pub and see what how your brand
is appearing there.

That will give you a real
understanding of how people are

really interacting with your
brand.

That's not to say that those,
and we'll talk about it later.

The top 1% of bars aren't
important for creating that

Halo.
But I I wish more of us had the

bravery to take our leaders, to
take our teams to where things

are real, rather than where
things are perfectly polished.

Create a perfect impression,
which is easy easy to say.

How can we crack this because
there is this called a leafy

saree with online Waitrose
orders.

And for those non familiar with
Waitrose is the most premium

supermarket chain in the UK
probably and a test screen

Vauxhall, which is South London,
a more basic neighborhood, let's

call it.
There is an element of market

segmentation even within a
single city.

I mean, London is a bit of a
monster of a city.

Of course, it's like a country
within a city.

But how granular can we get in
this geographical segmentations

where we actually have like this
Selfridges, the the high roads

and we have this kind of
situations, high crime, lower

income because there's something
to do for me on the ability of

certain premium brands to scale
that sometimes we are pushing

for scale in places where we
shouldn't probably scale those

brands.
Yeah, it's a great question.

I mean the whether throughout
micro housing, different

segmentations, whether it's 1990
in terms of bars, whether it's

gold, silver, bronze, whether
it's gold, silver, bronze,

platinum, even right to the top,
understanding that within the

same city there are very
different types of bars.

The reality is if you want to be
a brand of the scale of A, to

use some competitor examples,
Johnnie Walker or Tanqueray, you

have to be in all those bars.
You cannot be a scale brand just

in the one and the nine.
What that means is you have to

think about innovation, which
allows you to have a portfolio.

So if we take Tanqueray,
Tanqueray 10 for the top bars,

then you've got your more
premium flavour expressions

maybe for the middle bars and
then you've got your basic

Tanqueray, which might be a
pouring gin in certain with the

90 or you've got to think about
serve strategy.

So in my very top 1%, I want my
gin to be served in a French 75,

in the 9 I want it to be in a
gin sling.

And then in the 90, I accept
it's just going to be a gin and

tonic.
So it's really having those

those strategies, having your
account managers trained in

understanding the kind of outlet
they're going to and what's

useful for them.
That's a really key point for

me, which is so often the brands
go to bars and try and push a

message, whereas actually we
really need to understand the

outlet we're talking to and what
do they need.

If I deliver this beautiful
premium crystal cocktail, wear

for the dog and dark, not very
useful for that bartender, to be

honest.
He'll probably just take it home

or he'll just keep it in the
backroom.

So we really need to tailor
those strategies to that outlet

segmentation and from marketers
in particular, less of our

commercial teams, less of our
sales team to understand the

difference between those types
of outlets.

They've got to get off their
backsides and go and see them

and not be afraid of seeing that
brand in the Dog and Duck or in

a Wetherspoons.
I was discussing with with

Filiberto Maddie that my
business partners on some

project, we were talking about
Campari, For example, Campari is

always talking about the Negro.
There's no Negroni without

Campari.
It's a famous tagline that

they've been using for a while.
But then if you go to the basic

bar in Rome, it's going to be a
Camparian orange or Camparian

soda or Camparian ice with a
slice of orange.

There are different kind of
things and also like a bit of

recruitment to be done,
especially for products with a

particular taste profile that is
very polarizing, like a bitter

could be.
And then it's like Kayla, you

put some orange juice, which is
berries, wheat and brings you

into the category in whiskey.
I always use the example of my

favorite Boulevardier, which
I've come to known as a Negroni

drinker.
When I started to work for

whiskey companies and projects
and I didn't like whiskey, I

thought, OK, like how do I get
in?

OK, I know vermouth, I know
bitter.

I just wish the gin for the
whiskey.

So, but it's very interesting
the exercise to sell it to the

management, to sell it to the
bars.

You know, there's always this
element of selling story and

also understanding the
ecosystem.

I've had loads of fights with
management visiting me in

markets where they wanted me to
list a certain brand in the top

1% where the bartender was
looking at me like this.

You're fucking crazy.
Do you want me to put this thing

that it's on promo every other
month on a supermarket shell in

the middle of nowhere?
And at the same time sometimes

like they want to scale the
Super premium ones into the

Tesco's of the world and then
expect rotation that is never

going to happen.
And then you get a call from the

buyers like this is the last
order I've ever made of of this

product and I think.
There are brands that through

their portfolio can be
everywhere.

Johnnie Walker is a good
example.

Through the different colours
you can have Johnnie Walker Red

in your Tesco and in your lowest
bar right up to Johnnie Walker

Blue and even some more premium
variants.

So there are some brands that
can do it, but the vast majority

are better off focusing on
selling really well where

they're meant to sell versus
trying to be everywhere.

I think distribution can be a
force metric sometimes.

I think distribution is vanity
rate of sale is sanity in these

sort of things to return the
favour.

I think I've seen you sell
LinkedIn many times.

It's better to be selling really
well in one or two outlets than

it is selling badly in 100. 100
percent, 100%.

We both worked for Asahi at
different times.

We never worked together.
I hate myself.

I should have stayed a bit
longer.

Coming from the beer angle,
rotation plays a huge role

because it's all about.
Space in the fridge or the keg?

Yeah, exactly.
There's there's a shelf life on

a bottle, there's tougher chef
life on the keg because once you

open it, you know, 3 days and
it's gone basically.

So there is this element in the
coming to the spirits world.

I've got into this kind of like
cultural shock where everybody

we're measuring themselves on
distribution and then you see a

bottle are probably brought two
years ago still there and.

Open what we might call prestige
whiskeys or any other category.

Part of the reason that the
bartender will accept them being

on the shelf is they're almost
like a beacon of quality.

If you look at the back bar and
you see, I don't know, brand

doesn't immediately come to
mind, but you see something, oh,

let's say Johnny Walker Blue
again, which is $100 for 25

milliliters.
You probably won't sell it that

often, but everyone's going to
see that as an impressive sign.

Compared to beer, consumers are
small.

If they see bottles collecting
dust even in spirits, they're

going to not go for it.
I think it's all like what you

were saying.
It's all something.

It's kind of like prize
anchoring again, that many

venues do.
It's like the like the spaghetti

with lobs in a restaurant for
£80, then it that helps you sell

the £25 or carbonara, you know,
made with special eggs.

You just go for it then because
it all of a sudden becomes a

cheap alternative.
It's also about occasion.

We discussed that a lot last
night.

If I remember correctly.
You're also have an aversion for

demographic segmentation, as I
do, maybe a bit less.

No, hugely, because I hate the
idea of being put in one

category as a person.
And that's the only way I'll

behave.
You know, we talked about it

before.
The what I'll choose on a Friday

night in a stylish bar in London
is completely different to when

I've had an argument with the
wife and I've stormed to the pub

on a Sunday and I just want a
beer.

And then to come home and
apologize and realise that I was

wrong all along.
Occasion segmentations include

In Trouble with the Wife, but
it's I think it's probably quite

a common one.
You know, how do you identify

with which occasions are, you
know, good for a certain brand?

And this is where Chris, if you
can, quantitative data can help

you.
You know what, we're here we go

selling, keeping my industry
alive, I've got to sell it.

If you are able to run something
like a demand space

segmentation, so you understand
the different needs of the

consumers on one axis and the
different occasions or contexts

on the other, it's actually very
easy to bake into that data

outlet segmentation.
So you start to understand well,

if my demand space is called
look sophisticated or stand out

or connoisseur ship or whatever
it might be, it allows us to go

right.
That's relevant for these kind

of drinks in these kind of
outlets.

And then it allows you to be
very targeted.

So if you know that the
consumers may need is to look

sophisticated, look good,
stylish, show off that typically

is in a high end cocktail bar,
it makes it really obvious for

you to go right.
I need my brand to appear in a

way which helps that consumer to
stand out, whether it's in

beautiful fancy cocktail or, you
know, if it's beer.

I want to be seen pouring
granite Reserver, not the not

the classic Peroni.
Alternatively, if the occasion

is chill out, relax, kick back
and they're doing it in a local

dive bar in New York, I'm not
going to invest in my brand now.

I might invest in glassware.
I might invest in the staff

wearing my brand so that people
see it and make a choice.

Like having that kind of data
can allow you to be very focused

with this is my brand, this is
what I want it to stand for,

this is how I'm going to serve
it, and these are the kind of

outlets I will target.
Now, of course, if you know your

market really well, you can do
it bottom up and go.

I know these are the kind of
outlets we have.

Therefore, let's think about it
from that way up.

But I think if you're going to
run research and spend money, a

good demand space occasion
segmentation is probably the one

thing that all businesses should
try and have.

I mean, I've been working on
with demand space in my time in,

in Karlsberg.
And I agree with you and I tend

to qualification to to simplify
because I mean especially, you

know, people that haven't been
working in multinational now

they may find it a bit too
complex to digest now.

But the challenge on this one
and it's connected to the

research element, but it's
connected to the scale element.

And we will speak about later,
there is this element that if we

identify that there are, let's
call it like 400 venues that are

suitable for that specific
demand space, then why does the

management want me to scale it
to 303,500 outlets?

That's where the Vauxhall
paradox, we can call it like

that now.
What about the voxel dox?

That works quite well.
That's where the voxel paradigm

come into existence because then
you want to drive it into venues

that where there's no at all
that demand space.

But because of you know scale
objective of a certain brand or

troubles on another brand within
the portfolio, then you end up

in chasing the wrong outlets and
may actually alienate the the

good job that you have done in
those 300 that you started.

With that's a super question.
I was just hosting a demand

space or occasion segmentation
training in Delhi last week on

this exact topic.
So without my presentation in

front of me, what I would say is
consumers are never wrong.

They can consume you wherever
they want to.

Your brand might be positioned
and look sophisticated, but it

is not a problem if a consumer
wants to drink me whilst they're

sitting on the sofa, whilst
they're having a date night,

whilst they're meeting a couple
of guys in the pub, Great.

It adds to my PNL and it
hopefully my bonus, which would

be nice.
However, it allows a brand to be

focused in the way it chooses to
show up.

The way we often describe it is
you want to activate and appear

every cents that you're spending
on advertising or below the line

or in store activation to target
that demand space.

So you want your brand, it's
Heartland to be in that

occasion.
You want it to over index in

that occasion over time. 2
wonderful examples out there are

Corona in that sense of kicking
back, enjoy the beach, unwind,

right?
There would also be some people

who think Corona is quite a
classy drink.

It's in a bottle, it's premium,
but I might drink on a more

special occasion.
Apparel spritz is another super

one for clearly being anchored
in that aperitivo moment.

But you know what?
If there's somebody wants to

drink an apparel spritz at a
brunch, why not?

You become associated with a
moment with an occasion, but

then volume can come from
elsewhere as well.

You just want more volume to
come from that occasion if you

can because it allows you to be
consistent.

Advertising money, activation
money is limited.

We can't try and say our brand
is the perfect whiskey for every

occasion.
We can say it's perfect for this

one.
And some people will listen and

choose that others will go well,
no, I want it for that and

that's fine.
If I they're buying your

product, they're never wrong.
It's one of the things that I

was saying like a few years ago
fact that ultimately I was often

the guy when I was with my
marketing hat on or that I

didn't want my brain marketed
into like more basic level

outlets, so to say.
Then when I was responsible for

PNL then I started to change my
mind and actually like.

What you said, there is very
often the difference between

market teams and global teams.
Market teams have the reality of

AP and L Global teams have the
long term, often the equity, the

health of the brand in their
mind.

And often it's finding that
sweet spot.

You know, Peroni sits on its one
single plinth on Oxford Street,

but actually it's also selling
in ZZ's and Pizza Express.

You know it's both.
Absolutely, absolutely.

You know, to agree with you on
the fact that ultimately if the

pricing is right and there will
be some rotation in that outlet.

Actually that outlet was a good
give an example.

It was just recently I was with
some friends and we were in the

normal part.
We were like 10 guys, you know,

we had a Nitzel or goulash or
whatever heavy check food.

And then 4/3 of the guys they,
they want a spirit and like a

digestive after the kind of like
a lunch dinner.

And Zacapa was listed in that
venue.

So he had all like very basic
mainstream brands.

And then there was Zacapa there.
And it struck me because because

I have this kind of like
Terminator I for back bars, I

was like, what the hell is
Sakapa doing in this grandpa?

There's no no connection
whatsoever with all the other

brands.
But that day, basically this

guy, you know, they had a couple
of shots.

I this 10, four CL course of
that.

So if you hadn't been there,
they would have gone for

something cheaper and totally
different.

But because it was there, that
was a kind of like confirmation

of what he's saying.
You know, the fact that when you

expand distribution, regardless
if the place is the right one

for a global team kind of play
may drive rotation.

It was sporadic but that helps
your your bones.

Right.
And you know, I think there's

two thoughts within that number
one, there's being pragmatic.

So if your whiskey cells are
$200 for 25 millilitre a shot,

yeah, that tells you you're only
going to be in a certain

percentage of bars.
You're not going to put that

brand in Wetherspoons.
But then the other thing that's

really important to me is we
mustn't be snobs.

Let's take Peroni as an example,
right?

Perhaps for someone like me or
you, that kind of moment is

we're wearing a nice suit, we're
in a cocktail bar.

That's our moment of looking
sophisticated.

Definitely not this shirt, but
actually for other people who

might come from lower
socioeconomic classes, maybe

taking their family to Pizza
Express is their moment to look

sophisticated.
And I think that's so important.

I think marketing is a very
elitist function.

We tend to forget that different
people still have those same

needs.
Even if you have $1.00 in your

pocket, you still want to try
and look your best.

At some point you'll still
choose a better brand.

And you know, that might not be
the $1000 a shot brand, but I

think brands need to stop being
so elitist and start being

grateful that consumers choose
our brand.

I'd rather a consumer choose our
brand in a slightly lower outlet

than they choose a competitor.
100% like to build on what

you're saying is that maybe a
like a job to be done in like

loosening up a little bit the
target occasion in the sense

that when you explain it to the
team, then that moment of show

off or whatever that would be or
maybe explain it in a little bit

like why they're elements.
So that is not all that the

Deriva boat with George Clooney.
But that's, but that's why

Insights starts at the bar.
Get your marketing teams out to

go to the bar.
Stop them sitting there dreaming

about George Clooney on the
riverboat.

Get them to the pub.
Listen to them with a group of

builders or plumbers drinking
Peroni, because it shows a sign

of status, because they can
afford Peroni.

They've had a good week at work,
right?

They've had good clients.
They've done a good job that

will help you understand how you
activate your brand.

Stop going to the 1% bar where
your peroni is served in a

crystal cut champagne flute.
If for me it's really obvious we

live in a class system elitist
industry.

I hate to say it.
I'm talking about marketing.

I'm talking about even market
research.

We also work in an incredibly
ageist industry.

No one wants to speak to people
over 65, even though people over

65 are drinking a lot, have a
lot of money and by our brands.

So is it.
If you can't afford to spend

money on research, use the eyes
that God gave you.

It makes me think of back in the
days when I was working with

Chile as a market, You know, one
of the biggest pool for premium

brands, if I remember correctly,
was Antofagasta, which is a

minor city.
The miners move there.

They have good money that
they've earned and they want to

invest them into what feels
premium to them, you know, So in

a normal regular strategy, we
only focus on Santiago because

that's why target consumer is
why.

And you would totally declass
Antofagasta as a oh, that's a

minor kind of city, while
probably most of your volumes

are actually coming from there.
Yeah, that's exactly that.

You know, as well as doing
segmentations through outlets,

geographical segmentations are
also important to take the UKI

know it's the same in Italy,
where there's such a divide

between the North and South.
Entirely the same in most

markets, to be honest.
You know, so it was just in

India.
And you talk about tier one

versus Tier 2 cities a lot, and
the difference is phenomenal.

The difference is absolutely
phenomenal.

Even within the same region, I
remember I was talking to a

wholesaler, actually, sorry, was
an agent, and he was explained

to me in Lombardia, which is the
same region, like the region of

Milano.
And then there's Brescia,

there's a lot of factories
there.

And then Cremona, which is a
very kind of like farmland, but

they are neighboring province.
And he was saying, you sell so

much more in Brescia because
there's so many people working

in factories that then when they
finish the shift, they want to

show off.
They're all well dressed,

looking for kind of like bling,
bling kind of occasion, table

service, vodkas, clubs.
While in Cremona, people would

actually more drink maybe at
home.

And it's much more agricultural
kind of society and it's

neighboring provinces.
It's so incredible.

But let's go back to the
research.

I haven't forgotten the
importance of research.

I keep reminding you, I'll tell
you every time I need it as I'm

unemployed, so come on.
You wrote, I'm quoting you.

Please stop commoditizing
research.

The push for faster and cheaper
is one thing, the sacrificing of

quality is another.
Yeah, I think that's really,

really important.
What's happening in the industry

at the moment is 1 end.
You've got high end

consultancies doing these big
demand space things that I'm

talking about.
And then at the bottom end,

you've basically got sausage
factory, quick, cheap, dirty,

and the guys in the middle of
being squeezed.

My view of research is it's
always better to do one thing

really well than to do 20 things
really badly.

I think a lot of the reason that
people hate market research and

go it's a waste of time and
money isn't because I hate

market research.
It's because I hate bad market

research.
They hate research that's done

quickly without consideration.
If my industry wants to persuade

people like you to recommend to
clients that you work with, we

need to do some research.
It means we need to do it

properly.
There are occasions when cheap

and dirty is OK, but
unfortunately the industry is

tricking itself more and more
that all occasions can be like

that.
You know, let's not get into AI

because that's a whole separate
conversation.

But it's the same principle of
there is a reason that focus

groups have existed for 200
years or probably longer.

The reason is if you have a
really trained moderator who's

good at having a conversation
with people, you can get really

good answers if you choose the
right topic and the right

moderator.
The problem, Chris, is that 9

times out of 10, the moderator's
only been out of university for

two years.
They don't know anything about

the category.
They don't know anything about

the client.
So you end up basically going,

well, I could have had that
conversation myself.

OK, So what what I'm putting my
flag in the ground for is number

one, do more research yourself
with your own eyes.

That's number one.
We, I know you agree heartily

about that.
Number 2, if we're going to pay

for research, let's do it really
well.

Let's do less but better when it
comes to research because it can

be transformational, Chris, if
you do good insight work, it can

multiply your brand speed.
If you get the right insight for

growth, you're in such a rich
place.

If you just spend it on rubbish
research, you'll never do it

again.
Again, I'm always shooting at

the at the quantity of the
research now, but because I'm

I'm always focusing on the fact
that, you know, if you are

moving the first steps in the
market as a small brand owner,

you don't need a quantity
research.

I've never had that.
I never had that budget.

You know, like when I when I was
in SAB Miller, the budgets I had

were really tiny because I was
always in the export department.

So how could I burn half of my
budget for the year on a market

research that then I had no
money to implement?

Anyway, part of the trick is
knowing when you need data.

Data can be very dangerous.
Your example of brands breaking

through categories, we all know
that tequila is booming, right?

It's one of the few growth spots
globally.

So that means margaritas and you
mentioned Palomas are booming.

That, you know, doesn't mean if
I'm a gin brand or a whiskey

brand, I should jump immediately
to make a Paloma with my brand.

It could be depending on it, but
I think it's being choiceful

with the data you have, using
the knowledge you have in the

right way, but being consistent
to what your brand is. 2 of the

biggest examples for me of where
data is used really badly.

Statistics about
environmentalism. 75% of

consumers say they pay more if
your brand is sustainable.

No they weren't.
They've just been asked a

question in a way that they're
going to say yes.

And then there's the thing about
Gen.

Z and the big boom of brand
purpose, what we had for 10

years.
When it comes to the point of

purchase, consumers will not buy
your brand because you are

associated with a particular
'cause now it might if it's

genuine over time.
Let's take a brand like Absolute

that's done a lot of work with
the LBGT community and has done

for years and you know, from its
Swedish heritage, it's all baked

into the brand.
Then you get brands who try and

jump on every bandwagon and that
for me.

And again, you'll have
statistics.

Oh, Jen said a 90% more likely
to buy your brand if you support

A cause.
No, they're not.

They don't have any money.
It's a bad research is the

problem.
Again, I spend a lot of my time,

too much time, certainly in my
boss's opinion, too much time

looking at LinkedIn and going
that's bad research what you're

doing there, right?
If you ask people questions like

that directly, do you want to
buy from an environmental

sustainable brand?
Who's going to say no?

How do you find a balance
between qualitative and

quantitative?
How do you balance the Dane size

that you have in the court like
me and you sitting at the bar

talking to the bartender,
talking to the people next to us

at the bar to actually scaling
that and having some evidence in

the quantitative?
Yeah, great question.

I think there's two ways #1 we
live in a world of, you know, AI

summaries.
If we can get all our marketers

globally once every two months
to be a bartender, write up some

notes and put them into AI, we
can actually very quickly, even

informally, have a great source
of knowledge.

OK.
And then it's understanding what

quant can do and what
qualitative can do.

For example, you might use quant
to define an occasion that you

think globally is the right one
for your brand.

Let's use the example of Corona.
Their moment is always about

relaxing and feeling carefree.
OK, So that quantitative and it

will tell you in India relax and
feel carefree is 32% in China,

it's this percent in UK.
It's that what it doesn't tell

you though is exactly how an
engine consumer relaxes and

feels carefree in the market.
How does a Chinese consumer do

that?
So that's where going and

spending time with bartenders or
with consumers yourself to

better understand the occasion
could be really powerful.

Because even if quant teaches
you that there's a global

opportunity for a brand, the
exact nuance of how that plays

out in those markets is the
trick.

And we often talk about local,
global and local.

And that's the way I think you
might consider almost your quant

creates your global targeting
opportunity and then your local

qual allows you to bring it to
life in a meaningful way.

So if I get it right, you can
use it in a sort of bottom up

and top down way.
So I can actually start with the

qual and then identify and then
the see if there's meats on the

bone with the quant or getting a
quant from a global and.

Then bringing it to life
locally.

Yeah, exactly.
It works both ways.

And I think I, I always say
this, I think global and local

needs to be a constant 360°
exchange of knowledge.

What can often happen, and
you've worked in these big

organizations, Chris, is that
the global teams sit in their

ivory tower and then the local
team think, well, these guys are

idiots.
I don't want to listen to

anything they say and then the
global team will say, well, I

don't want to talk to the local
guys because they don't know

anything about my brand.
If you can start to bring each

other insights about this is how
the consumer works.

This is what bartender tells us.
That relationship that when I

hate this word, reciprocity of
ideas, don't know if I'd

pronounce that right.
Let's move on.

Creates a really powerful
insight ecosystem.

So that's how you know it can be
easy to think that your one

conversation with a bartender
doesn't matter, but suddenly if

lots of people are having those
conversations with bartenders,

that can create a huge amount of
qualitative knowledge for a

business.
Before you said ecosystem, I was

exactly thinking about ecosystem
because that's a word that I'm

using a lot, because it's
exactly that.

It's an insights ecosystem that
brings together qual quant, you

know, global, local bartenders,
brand managers, salespeople.

If you stop blaming the other
thinking you know more and you

get a little bit more I I call
it bottom up curiosity that

enables that conversation and
doesn't shut the door.

But you can go a long.
Way and honestly, curiosity does

not kill the cat.
It informs you like businesses

where their marketers are
curious are the ones that

succeed, right?
The ones that want to understand

their consumer, that want to
understand the moment, the

bartender, they're the ones that
will do really well.

The ones that just sit there
producing monthly KPI reports,

maybe looking at their brand
health tracker once a month and

going oh, our awareness has gone
from 60 to 61.

Oh, it's come back down to 60.
Doesn't teach you anything to go

and use your eyes.
So let's wrap this up.

Paul, I'm aware of your of your
time and I know it's Friday.

So I just realized that we
recorded on a Friday last time

as well.
That's the nice thing.

Of course, on a Friday with the
sun shining here after a very

long two weeks in India, there
is a possibility for me to

finish a little early and go and
add to the on trade rate of

selling myself this afternoon.
Do a little practice what I

preach a little bit.
So let's just wrap it up and

then let people know I'll listen
how they can find and if you

have some final thoughts for
them.

Well, you'll find me on LinkedIn
often giving quite

controversial, unpopular
opinions.

You will find me in the pubs and
bars of the UK and globally.

My final thought, joking aside,
would be again Chris, use the

word curiosity.
It's curiosity as an industry

which will help us grow.
How do we delight our consumers

better?
How do we understand the

occasions better?
If you stop feeling curious

about an industry as amazing as
alcohol, then there's something

wrong with you.
That's my.

Well thanks so much, it was a
fantastic to have you looking

forward to have a finally a
pint.

It's still over.
It's overdue.

Thanks for listening to the
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